How much Caffiene ?????

[Slinky Bender]

In a session, how many "cups of coffee" should be offered ? What should the assumption be and how should it be discussed/determined, since this really isn't something you can't talk about in an intial contact ( can you ? ).

[pswope]

Since a providers fee seems to be based on time(eg $XXX/hr)as opposed to specific services or results,shouldn't the number of pops be unlimited? otherwise,if a client fails to have any pops,would he be entitled to a rebate/or freebie?

[Slinky Bender]

I don't disagree with you on that theory, I think that in practice this is very often not the case. At this writing, I can't think of a single Asian Outcall ( or incall, for that matter ) where more than one cup is offered. We all know that there are many "non-hour hours" out there.

How, when, etc. should this be determined ?

[pswope]

pricing is really just one "convention" that seems to get perpetuated in this industry. while the internet has resulted in modernization in certain aspects(mostly marketing),amny other s appear to be rooted in tradition.
Let's face it,a one pop limit in conjunction with a time limit works solely in favor of the providers and if attempted in other industries or professons would be unacceptable. (and I understand the notion of a gal can only take so much)

[robnotbob]

It depends on "cups of coffee" definition.

At massage/spas, IMO, clearly it's one per "hour", unless you've been going to one particular place for a while, then you can usually ask for (and receive) a second (as I did last night).

Or if you're MrNY, then you just open your wallet and say "I'll tell you when I'm done".

With FS providers (in my LIMITED experience) in a typical one - two hour session I get two "cups": once orally and once FS.

[Slinky Bender]

RNB,
If only it were that clear...........

[ValerieXXX]

Robnotbob, that is true. Also it depends on the lady. Now if it is a first visit, don't expect unlimited. She has to have some "Chat" time. One must take the time to know each other, yes I know that you are there for a reason but this can deter provider burnout (if she feels you care for her as a HUMAN BEING) and maybe you find you both have something in common. I like that very much. That puts me at ease and I can just go with the flow and be more agreeable. Hey it works. Now to put something in perspective, Juan Valdez and his donkey are not in our closets!!!...lol... Remember be reasonable and like it was said above, a gal can only take so much especially in a touring situation which is murder on bod, spirit, and her sanity. I hope this helps :0)

[fletch]

Re: JV and his donkey. You just had to ruin the fantasy for me didn't you?!?

[jennifernyc]

Well guys here it goes my first post ever!!!! I am not sure if this is the best topic to pop my cherry with, but what the hell here it goes.
In most of the houses I have ever worked in it was pretty standard that a half hour is one cup. The hour on the other hand is two, but the grey area is how? Some will say only one full service unless the guy is tipping extra. Others say full service for both is fine. I guess this depends on the girl and/or how long you guys can last. Now thanks to dickhead(can I say that?) Guliani if you are new to a house and want to ask about cups of coffee for tips up front this is probably not the best move.
As for me now that I am independent and charging alot more money than I was getting at sterling, I feel that I owe you a much better experience. So if cups of coffee are what you want than let me see what you got!! But I gotta stick up for my girls who are still making $110 for the hour. So guys please don't go in and expect to bang a girl for 20 min. talk to her for 7 and then climb back on top for another 15. It can get sore, Know what I mean? On the other hand I don't see anyone getting a refund if he can't finish one cup. Good point pswope!
Well there it is happy new year jennifernyc

[badz]

.

[Edited by badz on 05-23-2001 at 09:48 PM]

[Phantom]

Since I'm somewhat of a newbie to this, I don't understand the reference to coffee and cups of coffee. I, myself love a freshly brewed, rather strong cup of Columbian in the morning. Sometimes, I pefer to have a hazelnut flavored grind.

For brewing methods, I perfer the steeping method.

What type of coffee and brewing methods do you all perfer?

[pswope]

Bravo for Val and Jenn for their honest ,in content and style,posts(shit I never realized that the ladies didn't enjoy being serially pounded by pasty faced overweightunshowered johns).
Seriously,imo,it's this type of honest exchange that will help promote better understanding on both sides.


Phantom
You must try ordering a $5 cup of Joe at Payard and sitting with a comely fine arts grad student discussing Watteau and Chet Baker,becoming so hypnotized that you don't even take a sip!

[Phantom]

pswope,

A couple of questions if I might. I'm assuming that "Payard's" is located in Manhattan. Since I'm not a Manhattanite, I haven't the foggiest. Can you please enlighten me as to it's location?

The next question is whether these, "comely fine arts grad students", will sit and enjoy multiple cups of coffee with me? What are the chances that they will savor and slowly partake of numerous cups of coffee over an afternoon or evening? It goes without saying that I will pick up the tab for this afternoon or evening coffee tasting session.

Thanks!

[pswope]

Phantom
my post was an esoteric allusion posted for the benefit of a recalcitrant bud;
Payard is a french bistro located on Manhattan's UES,which features the best sweets(tarts,chocolates,pastries)in the borough.
In reponse to your inquiry, my drinking companion has apparently retired.
However,with some shopping,you may be able to locate what you're looking for. The type of "date" you refer to is certainly available in most large urban areas. Your budget would be a major factor in your range of selection.
You may want to consider the looking for board on this site. Research usually gets rewarded.

[Edited by pswope on 12-30-2000 at 11:49 AM]

[badz]

.

[Edited by badz on 05-23-2001 at 09:49 PM]

[Slinky Bender]

Dabs of mayo ?

[fletch]

Orgasms?

(one of my problems is that I have no imagination)

[ValerieXXX]

I think the term "coffee" came from ***, that was the way they described me on my stats on the "list" I have repeatedly asked for it to be removed. The date experience should be unrushed, for the BOLD Arabica beans...lol..... and light and sweet for the feeling we both get when all is done!!!!! Nothing rude expected, we are human and making sure the gents treat us well if they would like results to go thier way. Marathons are not satisfying, get a Snickers bar!!!!

Now for the hygeine part that was mentioned, Hmmmmmm! Ok here it goes, I always put a freshness stamp on my cat!!! I had that talk with my mother in the meadow...lol... If guys want the best interaction, they should be as considerate as I, showers! Now come on turn the tables, when you dine out you want to smell roses on the table right? well so do we!!!! :0)

I hope that was not too outta line, just something to help all.

[Slinky Bender]

It's funny you mention that. A while back I went to a very popular incall establishment here in NYC and asked for a shower first. From the reaction I got, it would appear that it wasn't all that common an occurance. Now, since this was 7PM after a work day, I would assume that they would want everyone to "freshen up" first. Apparently they don't. It also appears that the ladies don't necessarily shower between appointments there, either.

[robnotbob]

sb: I agree with you. In a couple of spa reviews Ive seen that the places have no shower facilities. Well if you're getting oiled up and stuff, that knocks the place off my list.

I just saw a lady last week and she was very pleased that I asked if I could shower first. What the hell?? I try to shower before AND after if I can.

Depending on the company, one "cup" is fine with me. Val, now I definitely need to see you!! LOL

[ValerieXXX]

You know those places are like car washes, without the wash!!!!!...lol... No matter how many cups or no, things are never perfect without the shower (both sides) Cleanliness is a must!

I will be back to NY pretty soon so, I will be taking you all up on that offer!

I have been changing the site around as the new webmaster, so check for my return !!!!! And don't worry shower are a must for me!!!....LOL....

[wimpy]

Valarie,

You just made my year

[robnotbob]

for her return.....

[Ozzy]

maybe i'll bring that other hot blonde from LI to join us.

Val, remember it was i who said you two would like each other. man i was never more right. :p


[Edited by Ozzy on 01-03-2001 at 11:48 PM]

[ValerieXXX]

I can't wait!! lol you all should see the crap that someone started (guess who?) on *** Seattle board. Hurry before it gets deleted!!!!!!!!

[wimpy]

Valerie,

Excellent retort. You go girl :)

[Slinky Bender]

SHIT, I always miss the good stuff...........

[Ozzy]

val....maybe you can't wait, but i gotta wait till the end of april?



i'll be dead by then!



and if i'm dead, who's gonna hold the camera for you and brenda?

[ValerieXXX]

Couple of things, First, I take no prisoners!....LOL.... ain't about to start either. That will learn them!
Second, well I would need a camera man to film and participate in my last living fantasy for a movie. I think the shoot should take place in NY what do you think guys?
Ozzy hang in there! also e-mail me hon I need to verify if you are who I think. I have something for you my sweet :0)

[justme]

Back to topic... Val, I understand perfectly the physical limitations on a woman's body, but...

"She has to have some "Chat" time."

I thought that the whole point of paying was to forgo the niceties. Otherwise... why pay? So granted that the srvice can't be full all of the time, I'm still not certain why there can't be some level of service at all times.

[jmcurry]

Since Jennifer chimed in here, I feel a certain responsibility to second her post. I have seen her for the past six years and have always been interested in spending time talking to her both before and after our intimacy. I rarely go looking for multiple cups of coffee, no matter which provider I am visiting. Doing otherwise, without regard to her feelings and persona, is tantamount to acknowledging that you are solely an animal, intent on primal satisfaction, with little or no concern for your selected mate. It is similar to saying, "forget the human side of this relationship, just satisfy me." Even during my tour in Vietnam, when alienation and despair creeped into everyone's life, few in my platoon ever saw women purely for the number of "cups" that they could drink. All of us were interested in relationships, and I suspect that most of the hobbyists out there today still are. It is not the quantity, but the quality, that makes our bonds with providers special.

[ValerieXXX]

You said it all jmcurry that is exactly how I feel, and have been saying.
Justme, you have to realize that though you are paying for the provider's time especially on this level of the totem pole, "chat" time is vital for the security of the lady. She needs to know who you are! There are times and places for what you said in your last post, it is called the streets. We are not the same my friend, not by a long shot. I am not in this to be used like a piece of shit hon. I will not even entertain the notion that just because you are laying out the $ to see me I have no right to get to know you and be comfortable with the whole arrangement. it shows in my service. I have never liked that, I never will and don't want to ever go through that again. That is why I pilot my own destiny, if I didn't want to be treated like a lady I would find a pimp and call him huggybear!!!!!!! Got it?

[justme]

Val, please let me rephrase. I'm not saying that the visit should be without any kind of humanity, that would simply be... trashy. My point was that you are being payed for a particular type of service, and I think that if you are not providing that type of service then you shouldn't be charging. If you feel the need to get to know your client first I think that's admirable, but your needs shouldn't be on the clients' dime.

Recently we needed to retain the services of a specialty lawyer. We interviewed about four firms before selecting. Each interview lasted at least two hours and was no doubt very tiring for the lawyers. They understood, however, that this was marketing so they did it and they did it for free. Every professional understands that they're going to have to spend non-billable time in order to gain new clients. When I'm marketing I'll spend as much as four hours on an initial visit with a client (granted that a lot of this time is preliminary due dilligence) and it usually takes ten of these visits to land one new account. Hell, you women should consider yourselves lucky that you have such a high matriculation rate.

I understand that you sell your time, but I think that it's important to realise that there are very specific expectations on the part of most johns for what that time entails. If someone wants to pay your going rates to sit around and discuss the real names of certain art deco masters, well then that's their decision. If someone else thinks that their (very expensive) time would be better used in other endeavors then I think you should respect that. Furthermore, I don't think that that necessarily makes that person a horrible inhumane bastard. I have no problem meeting a pro for drinks before a session so that she can sum me up and make sure that I'm not a threat. I have an incredible problem being asked to pay for that.

[Edited by justme on 01-06-2001 at 12:35 PM]

[justme]

Hey Slinky, how can I edit a post at 12:35pm 1-6-2001 that I wrote at 1:33 pm 1-6-2001?

[Slinky Bender]

It's not a 1:33 post, it's a 12:33 post ( or did something change before I got to see this ? ). The board is on EST.

[justme]

Odd. In my browser it says that the post was made (snip - paste) ...01-06-2001 01:33 PM, while it also says (snip - paste) [Edited by justme on 01-06-2001 at 12:35 PM]. I don't think there's anyway for the browser to know what time zone I'm in...

[robnotbob]

jm: Although I have never been asked to do that by a provider, I would have a hard time paying for that time too. Which is why I spend phone/email time with them prior. I have never been turned down for a session (big deal, right?)

I think the ladies can get a good sense of you via those two media. If not, and they want to meet prior, hell I wouldn't pay (for that EXTRA "drink time", that is).

And yes, Val I DO enjoy the chat time. I think that's a very important part of the session and what makes a FS session a little different :) than a typical spa/massage session.

[Edited by robnotbob on 01-06-2001 at 08:49 PM]

[Slinky Bender]

justme,
Of course there is a way of the browser to know what time zone you are in. You told us when you initially signed up what time zone you are in, and it stays as part of you account info ( the last item on the "Sign Up" page is "Hour Offset" from EST ). I guess the bug is that it only does it on the post tag and not inside the posts in the "edit by" tag.

[justme]

Slinkey - That's what I figured, but it still looks funny. I forgot about telling my 'zone. Hmm, but thinking about it I realize that I must have offset the wrong way, as we'd expect 11:33, not 1:33.

RnB - I enjoy the p-c bullshit, you enjoy the p-c bullshit, and I think a lot of providors use the p-c bullshit to get more comfortable with the situation. My point was that I could not fault a john if he didn't enjoy it and refused to pay for it.

Arghh, having a tough time adjusting my language to be less... literal.

[ValerieXXX]

I have to jump in. As I said the Chat time is usually about 10 minutes for an hour Unless the lady knows the person already. You need to understand a few things (why do i sound like a broken record?) We have much to contend with. I am not a prostitute. If I wanted to just fuck for bucks, I would sell my can on the street. I started this when I worked for agencies that sold me like a whore. I wanted to work for myself, and that means being treated like a lady. I do NOT refer to my Dates as Johns. I will not be asked to do that, that is trash and I am not in that world. I like to have fun granted I am selling the WHOLE package, not just my body, any lame brain can do that. You have the choice when you look at my site. I am not going to compromise myself for a few bucks. It is not worth it to me. If you want a fuckarama, go for it I am not stopping you. I just don't want any part of a world that is going to hurt me as a woman, as a human being. I deal with enough already, you know LE wants to set everyone up any way they can do you think I am going to let my gaurd down? Not on your life! I have a 5 year old that I have to raise and I am not going to let anyone take me away from him. For ANY reason.

[Phantom]

Hey, how did I get dragged into this topic?

[Slinky Bender]

What is it with you guys on this board ? We're going to have to set up a "self outing" section soon......

[justme]

I may be reading your post wrong, but it seems like you're getting a little defensive. If you don't want to call your clients johns, that's fine. If you want to offer a more intellectually stimulating product than others do, that's fine too. If you don't want to call yourself a prostitute... again fine. Personally I'm not interested in symantic rationalizations for my activities and I find the whole notion of posting to a topic that involves various euphamisms to be at best immature, but granted the legality of various situations and the fact that this is a public board, I acquiesce.

It seems that there are three prevailing themes in your responses to this thread.

1) It is important to determine that a 'client' is not LE, or otherwise... undesirable
2) You refuse to be dehumanized and objectified, and you feel that 'about 10 minutes for an hour' will help you avoid this
3) This conversation is an essential part of the product that you sell, which in your opinion makes it superior to other alternatives

I think 1 & 2 are very reasonable from your perspective. If it takes 10 minutes to become comfortable with this particular situation, then I think any reasonable client would be willing to spend 10 minutes of his time allowing you to get comfortable. I just don't see why you think that your client should have to pay for time that is for the most part only of value to you. If you know the initial session will have this 10 minutes, then why not either schedule a 70 minute appointment and charge for an hour, or discount the initial hour by 16%?

As far as the third point, it just may be possible that your market views other factors as significant leverage points above this particular service.

P.S. - Working in an industry that deals almost exclusively with self-employed business owners, I think that I am in the posistion to say that these people take a LOT more shit than your average employee.

[Ozzy]

wow, i'm gonna take a fucking beating for this but what the hell.......it's been almost a week since i had a thrashing.....

we as clients give up one thing when we go into a session..."$$$" thats it. the ladies give up a lot more than that, so i guess if it takes her a few extra minutes of *MY* time to make her feel that much more comfortable, than so be it. in the end i'd say 90% of the time it will make a big difference in the YMMV area if you cut them a little more slack in that area.

[frog]

What about the client's comfort? I suppose a big advantage of seeing a famous escort is knowing that she is not likely to be LE.

[Slinky Bender]

That might not be as much comfort as you may think, frog. If someone got caught and was offered a deal, there's no knowing what might happen. Perhaps I am remembering wrong, gut I seem to remember this happening within the last year somewhere out West.

[ValerieXXX]

Well to sum up JM. I own two businesses, one is Platinum and the other is a Financial Consult firm. I know all about taking alot of shit!!!!
Now as for the lousy 10 minutes just keep in mind, I am not a clock watcher! Even on my MOST busy tours so I think I can ask if I do not know the person to be able to get more comfortable. What you are forgetting is I am the business owner, my body, my mind. I decide how I am going to be treated, I decide what happens. I said it time and time again don't book with me, simple. If you want the street whore experience oh I can see the scenerio, "hey baby wanna fuck?" no need for names. God! go for it! If you want the package deal, which might I add I am very generous with my time and talents, no complaint there, go with me or some other that runs her business that way. As Frog mentioned and it is a very valid concern, how do you know if you are safe? Now for the "prostitute thing" and of course my favorite "johns" You know in this day and age, why must I resort to the street level lingo? The prostitutes you see on the streets sell it for drugs, Many of the internet ladies do it to get ahead in their lives and live nicely especially for their kids. You want to call me a prostitute? well go ahead, but also why should I sit around and read this garbage when I was invited to participate and be truthfull in my reponses if i am just going to be insulted? My self esteem does not need to take a beating and I am happy with myself and the many things I accomplished in my life. So I like my job, does that mean you have the right to demean me and call me something that is just meant to degrade and hurt? Ok now I am in a PISSY mood!

[Slinky Bender]

Val,
Don't get pissed, because to a large extent it sounds like : a) You guys agree and b) you are both talking about other people than eachother.

What do I mean by this ? Well, the premise is that the "extra" time should be outside the "hour" ( at least that's what I'm reading ). I really don't see any disagreement on this. It seems that this time isn't deducted by Val from the time which is available in one of Val's "hours". I think what is being talked about is IF someone were to be very strict about the hour ( and I think we've seen some business owners who tend to think an hour is 50 minutes to begin with, BUT NOT VAL ) and in addition to that want additional time to be taken out of the "hour" for something which one side fealt ( rightly or wrongly ) was solely to benefit the other side, then it seems like there are those who would have a problem with that setup. In the scenairo I just proposed, I would have trouble disagreeing with them. I also think that Val wouldn't think much of such a business owner, either, and would admonish us: "that's what you get for going with a lesser quality gal".

[Rufus Moses]

This notion that even though the guy pays the money, its the provider that sets all the rules...and somehow thats fair...

Well its fair *only* if the guy knows what those rules are *before* he agrees to pay.

So for women who follow rules which are statistically (not morally) the norm, its fairly easy to be fair. The guys likely expectations meet her likely rules.

But if you are a provider who, say, requires much more discussion than most...well that should be known upfront. Guys deserve to know "its $300 an hour, but the first 1/2 hour is talk only". Its unusual enough that the guy should be given fair warning.

This assumes one is dealing with an ethical provider. There are some who play a psychological game where they try to get away with spending as few minutes as possible having actual sex. They will talk you to death. And then when sex finally does start its as rushed as possible. And then they talk you to death again to run out the clock. A 1 hour session that almost never goes for 2 rounds.

They do this out of a need to control the session. Its a psychological and/or power thing...the less time they spend having sex the more they can feel like "I win! You lose! (Loser!)" and in control.

Not saying this is all or even many providers. But they are out there.

[Slinky Bender]

Rufus,
I agree about "managing expectations", and that is certainly a much bigger issue than what's being covered in this thread, so I'll leave out a lot. That is alos one of the biggest plusses and minusses of reading a bunch of reviews before seeing someone. On the one hand, the honest reviews may give you a good idea of what is going to happen in the sesion, nad will give you a raodmap not only as to what to expect in the session, but also whether this is a good session for you to be scheduling in the first place. Unfortunately, since a lot of guys who write reviews seem to have these endless strings of perfect sessions with young, beautiful, willing and cheap girls ( which just defies logic, but they seem to get written and believed anyway ), it's difficult to mange one's expectations sometimes.

To bring this back around to the topic at hand, I think it's unreasonable to come to a session with the expection that 55 minutes out of "the hour" are going to be spent pounding the shit out of some provider. Even at the low end Spanish Houses, where a girl may see as many as 4 guys in an hour, I don't think there are too many who actually spend more than 20 minutes out of the average hour actually fucking ( sorry to be so blunt, but that's the best way to get the point across ). SO, if you are expecting to see a "touring pro", who is booking one hour sessions, and seeing a string of guys, and thinking that 90% of "your hour" is going to be spent with you going at it in high gear......well, then I think you need to better manage your own expectations ( nb: that "you" isn't pointed at anyone in particular, it's the general "yous guys" ).

[frog]

MrNY, feel free to chime in any time now...

[frog]

slinky, that sting operation can really only work for one tour, no? unless no one who were stung would stand up... oh oh, rufus?

rev:
so there I was, all ready for a nice cup of brand name coffee, STARBUCKS!, and some language lessons, ENGLISH!, when, out of the blue, instead of caffeine, I get bacon! So I get all banged up in the joint, where I became Top 10 of Attica, courtesy of my 6'8" roommate. Can't give this one two thumbs up, but she was pretty.

[justme]

Oz - Thing is, man, I don't think of it as just $$$. I think of it as the hours I spent dealing with various ass holes in my job to earn that money.

frog - too funny.

SB - see my, "I understand perfectly the physical limitations on a woman's body." I don't think that strait pounding for an hour is a reasonable expectation, but I do expect some level of stimulation at almost all times. i still haven't seen an argument for why a client that pays for an hour shouldn't get an hours worth of stimulation. Is yous guys anything like ya'll?

Val - Right, no reason to get pissed, we're just talking. Anyway, yeah, I agree with slinkey that we may be talking past eachother. If you take ten minutes at the top, and then give back ten at the end by not clock watching then I think that's fair.

It does kind of disturb me that you seem to dehumanize street girls (whose services, by the way, I've avoided) in your characterization of them as drug fiending pimp-dependent wrecks. Having read about some of the exploits of "Internet ladies", I'd say that they seem more than capable of some pretty low-life stuff.

"What you are forgetting is I am the business owner, my body, my mind. I decide how I am going to be treated" - interesting business philosophy for someone in the service industry.

Hmm, the word 'john' is trashy. Would you prefer, 'punter'? I would like you to notice that in my entire career of posting to UG, I have never reffered to you as a prostitute. Nor would I. After all, a prostitute is someone who exchanges sex for money.

Bessos

PS - The point of my prior PS was to address your, "I wanted to work for myself, and that means being treated like a lady," which I think would amuse most of my female clients. I'm sure that you're all too aware of what it feels like to take shit.

[robnotbob]

I must be getting old. How the hell can "youse guys" pound some girl (escort or other) for 50 minutes of an hour (and expect to do it, no less) Christ, if I didn't have some down (talk) time., every session would sound like this:

"Hello...let's go"

15 minutes later "Wow that was good", said rnb

10 minutes of silence

"Okay I'm ready again, let's go", said rnb

15 minutes later. RNB says, "Thanks".

Can I get a prescription for whatever vitamins you all atke?

[Slinky Bender]

Justme,



yous guys


-----------------------------------------------Mason-Dixon Line


ya'll

[robnotbob]

And I used both phrases in the same post.

[justme]

Hmm, does 'yous guys' have a plural?

[robnotbob]

I believe it's "youses guys"

[Slinky Bender]

It already is the plural. That's the difference with ya'll, which for some weird reason can be singular ( hmmmmm "you all" as singular ? I guess that's because of all that schizophrenia down there ;) ).

[robnotbob]

Perhaps in the Southern Bronx it's "Youses all"??

[justme]

Well, ya'll is deinitely a plural noun, but so is all ya'll (As in... All ya'll can shut the fuck up).

UG - a forum for cultural exchange.

[frog]

Originally posted by robnotbob
I must be getting old. How the hell can "youse guys" pound some girl (escort or other) for 50 minutes of an hour (and expect to do it, no less) Christ, if I didn't have some down (talk) time., every session would sound like this:

"Hello...let's go"

15 minutes later "Wow that was good", said rnb

10 minutes of silence

"Okay I'm ready again, let's go", said rnb

15 minutes later. RNB says, "Thanks".


umm... RNB, we *know* someone like this... Except the down time is not so long.

[ValerieXXX]

Well, seems I caused quite a stir. JM, I know all about shit, I take it all the time actually even more so when I ride Ambulance, the old farts crap on me all the time.....lol.... and I don't get paid for it! :0) As for the street well, I come from a BIG family (oldest of 7 yep mom was busy) my second sister down from me is now dying (or dead already) of AIDS you guessed it drugs and prostitution. I tried to help her, I cried, begged, pleaded to no avail. The smart ladies are on the net, the druggies well you know, that does not exclude the internet druggies either. I get very angry because I am nearing the end of this career and I am very sensitive. I do love it but at the same time studies have shown that sexworkers can take up to 2 years to heal, mind and bod after she totally retires. I am scared to death (I never open up to anyone) I knew this industry all my life, dancing and being a provider, and when I see trash talk after giving all my life to something and being fair, and sacrificing myself, it kinda hurts you know? I never rip anyone off I kept myself ethical in this profession and I wanted to be treated right, not alot to ask for. That is why I am pissy right now I deserve better and when I went out on my own, my reasoning was so did yous guys ~wink~ see why I get upset? I think for both parties.

[frog]

Val, I think it is also unfair to characterize all street walkers as druggies, diseased, etc.

Just so that I get my lingo straight; you are a provider and we are the end-users?

[pswope]

Val
I do not want to appear insensitive to some of the horrors you refer to in your last post but because some good friends of mine have had intimate relations with a woman reputed on the big dog site to be your sister,is this the relative with aids?


ps-in response to the central point of your post,imo,no one should be dissed simply because of their occupation. But dentists,lawyers,car salesman,re brokers,and prositutes all to diiferent degrees suffer insults from society at large for what they do.
I understand that to many ladies the term "prostitute" has a much more negative conotation than its dictionary meaning, a person,who exchanges sex for money and that is why it's probably so objectionable to you and many of your fellow sex workers.

[Edited by pswope on 01-09-2001 at 03:26 PM]

[Slinky Bender]

Val,

To a limitted extent, I understand what you are going through. For me, it took longer than two years to "get over" not being in the buiness any longer ( and to some extent, I'm still getting over it ), although my invovlement was different than yours. As much as any business, it "defines who you are", and thus changing "who you are" and how you see yourself as a result, can be a real upheaval. I've actually spoken to a few attorney's who have been disbarred and found they share a decent amount of the same emotions, as well as some athletes who suffered career ending injuries. You wake up one morning, and you're not the same person you used to be and you feel all out of control.

[ValerieXXX]

Slinkybender, Thank you. You are the only one who understood what I was saying and did not trivialize it. You know people I never speak from the heart and that is what I did, I am glad to see when I do retire, my efforst will go down the toilet, maybe I should not care anymore ya think?

As for the other provider my sister? She is HEALTHY!!!! She is NOT the one I speak of. Shauna started that ugly rumor to try to hurt my family, yes I have a sister with AIDS but it is not her. Nina the other NY provider, is also my Goddaughter and she is 27. If you looked at the last post, I said the next sister down from me. Now I am 32, that would make the stricken one 31. As for the druggie issue, I have no problem with people doing what ever if they get ahaed in life. I do have a problem when others get stoned, sell their bodies to support the habit, then see people possibly passing diseases, because when your high, you don't know what goes on, now how do I know that? Remember I have a sister with AIDS who probably passed it to others.

I think as far as my openess, I will preach ot to another crowd, I feel saddened because I thought some people care for other people, guess I was wrong right? Slinky thanks for listening.

[wimpy]

Hey Val,

Thanks for the openess. For me I do appreciate and feel for what you have been through. I can't say I relate. But, I am a himan being and I feel for you. I am surprised by your openess. It gives me a better perspective on you and others. I thank you and I know many others thank you for your openess.

P.S. - Before you retire I must see you. :)

[pswope]

Val
Thanks for the response. You eliminated some potential anxiety for some people. Your honesty as always is refreshing and respected.

[ValerieXXX]

Thank you I feel better now. I barely slept last night, still had to get up, send the little guy off to school, work out, which was a relief I take it out on my weights when I am blue. Just trying to help you guys out at the same time, you must realise it is in your hands. The session depends on both parties, not just us cofee, soda what ever. I am retiring soon, and I know when. It just would make me happy to see my efforts will be remebered, not just for me but for the other good ones out there who care for you guys. Just remember that. I know there is crap out there, but hey don't bite the good hands that feed you never allow yourselves to generalize every woman here.

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

Valerie....

Shauna certainly wouldn't start rumors!! Oh, wait.

Nebbermind

[Geezy Muldoon]

curious.

[Edited by Judge Crater on 07-25-2001 at 01:30 PM]

[Geezy Muldoon]

Further.




[Edited by Judge Crater on 07-25-2001 at 01:31 PM]

[justme]

I still think that you are reading through my point to concepts that I'm not really trying to imply. I hate to think that I was so hypocritical that I could claim to not understand the destructive quality of certain labels. On the other hand, I'm sure you have reservations about 'political correctness', no? Anyway, as I tried (and obviously failed) to state before, I'm not interested in discussing symantics in this thread (although...).

I am interested in knowing if you agree with any of my 1/8/1:42 pm post, as well as why you might disagree with any parts. (Just ignore the first paragraph)

I'm honestly trying to understand your perspective, but I'm also trying to make you aware of mine. I'm not trying at all to upset you (although I am sure that you're way too self-confident to be upset by a few words on a screen, by just(me) another faceless idiot)

[justme]

I'm glad, J.C., that you clarified your comments, as I for one found the unclarified version to be somewhat offensive. Hmm, I hope I haven't been so offensive. Moreover I hope someone would tell me if I were.

P.S. - I miss html tags.

[Edited by justme on 01-10-2001 at 05:12 PM]

[Geezy Muldoon]

justme:

My posts were intended as follow-up queries to the "studies" mentioned in one of Valerie's posts. Would actually like to read these "studies" to become better educated about the hobby and its repurcussions.

Am in agreement, by and large, with your 1/8/01 12:42 post. Makes some sensible comments. I too dislike semantics and would rather things be called by their real names.

[fletch]

JC, you dislike semantics? Do you always embrace what you abhor? I'm fairly certain that while you claim to be eager to review these studies, what you are actually saying is "Val, I don't believe there are such studies or that you would have read them if they did exist." Some people might consider that semantics. (But not me. I just think you're a wise-ass.)

I know, I know. You really want to know if you are hurting these women emotionally, because you just might retire if that were so. Isn't it possible that you are just overdue for your regular monthly retirement announcement?

NO!! I 've got it!!! You're really just trying to lure Val into retirement because it is so unhealthy for her and because, well, you're just that kind of guy.

[Edited by fletch on 01-10-2001 at 10:40 PM]

[Rufus Moses]

Actually Slinky, allowing for the human tendency to always generate exceptions....

Folks actually from the south who generally use proper grammer will only say y'all as a plural. Note twice the part about having to generally use proper grammer.

[frog]

I would like to back anyone's right to say whatever they want, regardless of how dumb it sounds.

[Slinky Bender]

frog,

up to a point, and "how dumb it sounds" is obviously not the only criteria.

I know we all like to "mix it up" once in a while, but I will admonish anyone thinking of throwing any more punches in here that I still have the Louisville Slugger behind the bar..:)

Tone it down one notch, please, yous guys.

[frog]

As part of my drive to make this the first thread to break triple digits, I pose this to slinky.

What do you want this board culture to be? Do you want people to sound off their thoughts 100% or hold back and be PC? If the latter, to what degree? What do we think of flames? Whose tone(s) are you admonishing?

I do realise the presence of mixed [and very open] company here necessitates a different level of communication than, say, our emails, or BS'ing over a beer. I also realise that as an infant board, we do not want to alienate anyone (yet) but there will be some level at which it all becomes silly.

[frog]

slinky, I know that you have a tough job now and I am not trying to make it harder [au contraire mon ami, behold, I post], but I think these issues are somewhat important to head off troubles ahead.

I believe it is your right and duty to wield the bat, as you say, but I think that a prudent and rarely seen bat is the best bat as you can see from that other board.

[Rufus Moses]

Slinkybender is Batman!

[frog]

I was hoping he'd be Derek Jeter

[Slinky Bender]

frog,


out of order:
1) "I think that a prudent and rarely seen bat is the best bat"
That's why it stays behind the bar. Trust me, it's there, but I'd like to keep it there.

2) "I also realise that as an infant board, we do not want to alienate anyone (yet) "
One thing is that once people get to know eachother, the degree of "shit" which they will take from eachother rises considerably. For example, I'd bet that there is a lot more shit which you would take from me or rufus than from some "stranger" here, and vice-versa. I'd rather that "new faces" avoid confrontations without establishing some sort of credibility first ( and old faces to hold back on bashing them back ).

3) "Do you want people to sound off their thoughts 100%"
I'm still a little addled by this cold, so I don't remeber some of the excellent quotes on this subject, but no, I don't want people to sound off 100%. To have any sort of civilized discourse, people must have some self censordhip mechanism. If I ran around saying "that's stupid" evry time someone said something which seemed stupid to me, it wouldn't promote intelligent conversations, it would stiffle them. Especially on the "anonimous net", too much free spirited posting, with no regard for the impact of their staements on the feelings of others, "discussions" frequently degenerate into nonsense. If things need to be overly "polite" around here for a little while until we all get to know eachother a little better, well then that's just the way it has to be. When you start a new job, join a new club, move into a new neighborhood, start any new relationship, you walk on eggshells a little till everyone knows what's what.

4)"hold back and be PC"
I think you know me well enough that I could give a shit about being PC. But there's a big difference between civilty and political correctness. It's not what you say, its' the way that you say it.

5) "What do we think of flames"
I don't think you can have a board which has any real meaning or use and be a "flame board". I don't like "flame baiting" either. once people are flaming eachother, the chances of having any real discourse is done.

6) "Whose tone(s) are you admonishing?"
I'm not going to name names, because I think that's going against the "flame baiting" stance I just stated. However, I think that there are a more than a few posts in this thread which show a lack of respect for other posters. I also sense a certain lack of respect for this board by at least one. If anyone thinks the quality of the posters here is beneath them, I would rather they avoid visiting here than visiting just to cause trouble.
Now, I don't care if you all love eachother, hate eachother, or a mix. I do care that people come here for "the right reasons". I really don't care if the board isn't "right for everyone", since I know it can't possibly be that.

I know that there are many who feel that a "mixed board" can not possibly succeed. That's fine. But if they want to come here and try to prove their hypothesis by trolling and baiting, well they are simply not welcome, and no one is forcing them to come here. They can go and piss in their own pool, not mine.

7) "What do you want this board culture to be? "
I won't even go into that, because my wishes are silly and "Utopian" ( haha ). What I will say is that it won't be a place where I tolerate: hidden agendas, knowingly spreading of false information, "internet board pimping", selective "moderation" based on trying to steer business, etc.

[Geezy Muldoon]

Sincere.

[Edited by Judge Crater on 07-25-2001 at 01:32 PM]

[fletch]

You claim you were being sincere, but I don't believe you. I doubt anyone else does, either.

I believe that many (or even most) prostitutes are conflicted and in emotional pain because of what they do. I do not believe that my participation contributes to this in any practical, meaningful way or that my quitting would help anyone.

[Geezy Muldoon]

Santa Claus was unavailable.




[Edited by Judge Crater on 07-25-2001 at 01:32 PM]

[ValerieXXX]

All right! TJ, if you are sincere, I appreciate it . If you just want to come here to start trouble, well not on this board. We deal with honesty and facts to try to help one another out. There is no discussion that is meant to hurt, just honest facts so we can all come together. Anyone who wants to hurt somebody should be banned, Don't come just to start trouble, why would someone do that?
Now I am going to back up some things The study I refer to and I read this a couple years ago was published by PONY (prostitutes of NY) I was interested in it's contents because this is an organization trying to help women in the sex industry. There is much pain in this profession when you get burnt out, and feel isolated. We deal with alot in our lives, past, present and future especially when some do gooder wants to point their finger at you constantly and say how evil you are for giving of yourself. Now everybody with me so far? Good!
I lost my innocence at the age of 6 when a babysitter (male) molested me, I have since been through other horrors of a sexual, violent nature Those who know me know of what I speak. I have also been terribly abused as a child and one of the episodes included my own mother strangling me until I entered cardiac arrest. I came to because God decided it was not my time I was under for approx 4 minutes. Much pain there huh? Sometimes I curse that day because God should have kept me out of harms way by keeping me.
I enetred this profession when I finally ran away from home (17) and felt that I could have some control, control that was taken from me. I also wanted to help others, and try to understand human nature. I am glad for that experience The money is good as well. I have done this for a number of years but the trouble comes when the sexworker has had a childhood like this and never developed cognitive skills growing up. She is lost, never had her identity. That is where the pain comes in. She feels bad about herself because she is only good for one thing, the money doesn't even matter anymore. Now here is the part where she decides to retire, gets confusing doesn't it? Now she has to fit into society as a real woman but how does she do that?
I hope this clears up some things for you I trust that all I revealed will be kept in confidence. Thanks for hearing me out. Let's just try to help each other and not hurt or flame. Be truthful in a constructive way.

[justme]

Val - Who is TJ?

You've had an admittedly tough life, and I hope you belive me when I tell you that I sincerely hope that the rest of it goes well. I also hope that you believe me when I tell you that I am not as insensitive as I sound when I ask what that has to do with the subject of the thread?

J.C. - Thanks for your comments on my post (time stamp not withstanding), but I was really looking for (and still am) Val's input. I suppose I should be more consistant with my use of greetings... Is this better?

[Geezy Muldoon]

Education.



[Edited by Judge Crater on 07-25-2001 at 01:33 PM]

[frog]

Aside from the kafe, wasn't there a study done in SF as well on rehabilitated [is that the right word?] pros and johns?

I believe that to some women, there exists a significant, probably too high a, psychic cost to providing. They either do not last in this field or turn to pimps or drugs or what have you to get them through the routine. On the other hand, I believe that some women are much better suited for this profession and suffer very little mentally. To paraphrase a friend's theorem, there's an infinite range of mental states in between. What is the average suffering? Aside from jc/tj's fears, I believe that the average pro [at least that I've seen, the disclaimer being that I do not see street girls so the sample is skewed] is reasonably well-adjusted and mentally healthy with little misgivings about her career choice, or at least her side step in the path to her career choice.

And to some extent, these misgivings and sufferings are not isolated to providers. If I can offer my own profession as an example, I am often disgusted with the vagaries of what the people in my field does, but nevertheless I persevere because, in some way, I do enjoy what I do, I do it well, and I am not sure if other professions would reward me as well financially. Does this sound familiar? Yes, there may be degrees of difference between offering my mind's work, and my body to others whom I don't particularly like or respect, but the difference might be less than you'd think.

[ValerieXXX]

JM what this has to do with the thread is simple, you need to see the whole picture in order to get what you want. You have to look deep (I do can't ya tell?) If you see what is going through our heads sometimes and understand how and why we came into the industry then you can see where our mindset is. Both sides have to understand each other for a few reasons, one so you guys know how to treat us to get what you want. Two we understand why we are here and we can service you better so there is no need to make up for a bad session. Got it? Many things go into a date and not just the obvious. If you get the picture, you would be a great hobbyist and only the best can draw from the lady the best from her. Us on the other hand can set aside our life's tragedies and be more focused on what it is we came together for Got it now? I don't believe in fluff or bull, I tell it like it is
JC, I thank you for your kind words and I hope that things can move foward from now on There are many sides to our stories and with the help of this forum we can bridge the gap between provider and client.

[SkellyChamp]

Fletch,

You responded to Judge Crater with

"You claim you were being sincere, but I don't believe you. I doubt anyone else does, either."

I just sat down and read this entire thread from beginning to end and I found absolutely nothing offensive about his post. It seemed to me to be a legitimate request for any information to back up points made by Val about which he was curious (or even doubted if you wish). I have no reason for believing he was anything but sincere. It was not warm and fuzzy and it didn't need to be NOR was it disrespectful.

As for the discussion about a provider (or whatever term you want to use) wanting to take some time to chit chat to get to a comfort level my thoughts are

1. Generally, if the lady has no interest in this I usually don't either. I also don't rip my clothes off either and get right to it but will undress slowly and just talk while doing that.

2. IF the lady shows an inclination to want to talk then I'll go by that. If it goes what I deem to be an excessive amount of time (and I consider myself to be quite reasonable) then I'll gently but definitively act in a manner to show I'm ready to proceed (And I'm not talking agressive attacking here). If the lady doesn't get the message I will say something - again respectfully but definitely. If I am not satisfied with how things went or don't have the sense that because we now know each other better that any future session will be more hands on than the lady won't get any future business from me. If the lady is not a clock- watcher and is not rushing to get me out because we are not finished then I certainly won't begrudge the talk time because it obviously served a VALuable purpose.

3. I saw Val on her last New York trip and we sat for a few minutes and talked while smoking a cigarette. The session that followed was awesome and I am positive that not once did she look at a clock or act in any manner that indicated that she wanted to get rid of me. In fact, we ended up hanging for a while. HAving read reviews and heard about her I knew that the totality of the experience would be great and that chit-chatting for a bit was part of that. Unfortunately, I can't say that about others I have seen. Val, I would go out of my way to see again. And Val, when you come to NY let's make sure I can get some time because I couldn't think of a better way to celebrate my birthday which is around the time you are in. And even if I get shut out from seeing her I would still feel that way.

[Slinky Bender]

frog,
"To paraphrase a friend's theorem, there's an infinite range of mental states in between."

Well, at least I've seen the endpoints to be: a serial killer street walker who's most frequent thought during the act was how much she hated all men and wanted to kill the guy she was with, to a part-timer who fealt guilty about taking money because she would have "done" every one of her dates for free.

[frog]

Thankfully, there is probably a nice bell curve there. Can I get a review of your end points please?

ps, 5 more posts...

[Slinky Bender]

Sorry, frog, no reviews. One worked for me and you will never hear anything about her ( she'd probably have me killed if she found out I was talking about her ). The other, you can read any number of books on.

[frog]

In thinking about my statement above that most of "my" girls are well-adjusted and not too messed up, I suppose that another sampling error is that I would talk to and get to know only those girls who strike me positively. Therefore, perhaps I am only attracted to girls with a relatively healthy state of mind. Still, there are enough of these girls to make me feel that my assessment isn't too far off.

[Ozzy]

well i'm gonna kill you *slowly* if you don't post a review or info..........YFH. :D

[frog]

Ozzy, I thought you never have *that* problem...

[justme]

Good hobbiest... I'll have to give that some thought.

Mutual understanding of backgrounds and perspectives sounds like a relationship, not a transaction.

[frog]

we did it!! 100 posts in this thread

[Ozzy]

never had that problem over money and never had anyone do it for me...........poon is a totaly different ballgame. :D

[pswope]

justme
if you view commercial sex under the continuum of relationships theory,while there is clearly mutual objectification by the sex worker and john,there's also room for some form of human empathy. If you starkly compartmenatalize it with no human connection,you might as well be in Woody Allen's orgasmatron.

[Slinky Bender]

pswope,
Are you saying there's something wrong with Glory Holes ?

[ValerieXXX]

JM what do you mean relationship? I mean just the fact that two people can come together and not disrespect one another. Knowing certain things can only make the experience better for both parties. Why are you being so thick headed? Everybody else got the point and some even empathize with me why do you have constantly take the humanity out of it?
You need a hole get a freakin' blowup doll, it costs less!

So 100+ posts on this thread cool!

[frog]

slinky, yes.

mack, one day, our children will study and cite the non-quantum theory.

[Ozzy]

if your going to be intimate wit someone, no matter what the situation is (paid for intimacy) there *HAS* to be some form of connection if you want something out of it more that just getting off. if not why not just save the $$$ and jerk off. i will never understand the combative view of some people who think they can't look at working girls as they would a girlfriend or even just a friend. it's funny but everyone wants a "GFE" but then they are not willing to treat or view a girl as a GF, or in some cases (and i'm not pointing any fingers at anyone here)barely treat them as a person. hows that old saying go...."you catch more flies with honey" ?

Val, i thought you were under family orders to take it easy......rest up and enjoy your vacation. your not touring for a while yet, no need to wear yourself down before you get here.

:p

ps.....100+ posts..... val, only you could draw that kind of attention, thats why i invited you here. thanks for coming.

[robnotbob]

Oz: Your first sentence says it all.

[frog]

ozz, I do agree in principle -- you've heard it all from me before, but a] even bad sex is still better than jerking off -- perhaps only because of the newest or novelty of the situation, but still is better, b] GFE is not a GF, in fact, it might be even better, ie, GFE is your ideal GF instead of the GF in reality. In paid encounters, I strive for GFE, which means I [try to] approach but never get to [try to!] the GF stage. Sort of like an asymptote. If that is coherent to you, hive five.

[pswope]

SB
no. the quantum theory has a correlating relationship for every corresponding need. sometimes,you just want to get off,via the efforts of another,without any sort of connection. where you run into potential problems is when a john tries to push the continuum beyond it's natural borders(eg creating emotional relations reserved for non-commercial situations). as we've seen,some (perhaps unscrupulous)ladies encourage business by exploiting johns looking for this unnatural relation.

Frog
I understand that mack's kid has to walk around with a tag on her shirt,disclaiming any relationship to that troubled man. one day,perhaps she'll be able to say her dad helped promote understnading of the quantum theory(when they teach it at Brearly,Spence and Chapin)

[Ozzy]

frog, i really didn't mean GF in that way but more like giving the girl a bit of a BFE is more like it. a little flirting never hurt anyone.

[justme]

Val -

I mean just the fact that two people can come together and not disrespect one another
But if you expect me to pay money for a service that I don't want and only benefits you aren't you already disrespecting me?

Knowing certain things can only make the experience better for both parties.
Partially agreed. Look, in my (short) life I've had physical relationships that were definitely enhanced by knowing the person across from me. I've also had experiences (mostly in this realm) where the more a woman talked to me, the less attractive she got. I am not very picky about who I'll be physical with. My standards for beauty aren't that high and I can overlook a lot. On the other hand I am very picky about who I get to know. Most people don't interest me, and I find therr conversation to be very trying.

Why are you being so thick headed?
I think this is uncalled for.

Everybody else got the point and some even empathize with me
It is possible, I think, to understand someone without agreeing with them.

why do you have constantly take the humanity out of it?
Do you read my posts?

On 1/6/2001 12:33 ET I posted:
Val, please let me rephrase. I'm not saying that the visit should be without any kind of humanity, that would simply be... trashy.

You need a hole get a freakin' blowup doll, it costs less!
Again, uncalled for. I'll address this in my response to pswope below.

pswope -

I understand the nature of the continuum. The thing that most people may be overlooking is that I treat all people with the basic amount of respect and empathy that their humanity and my own humanity demand of me. I really am uncomfortable with the way this thread seems to be coloring my interactions with people.

In some other Universe, I posted this:

For me the main difference between sex and great sex has to do
with the degree of awkwardness involved. With a long time lover,
bodies swirl into one and the act is a impromptu dance with
subtle cues passed back and forth. Body communication and
more importantly anticipation of intent create synergistic
movement which results in cooperative rapture. Different from
great sex is affectionate sex. Small details and actions which are
not erotic, but rather are signs of emotion create a sense of
equality of purpose. New lovers lack the emotional attachment to
give you the latter and the familiarity to give you the former. While
(deleted) did not provide the experience of a long time significant
other, she seemed to intuit that this was key to a good
experience. I can be impressed with masters of technical skills
like certain sexual positions and tricks, but truly unforgettable
sex has to be more than science, it must be art. My sex with (deleted)
was what you'd expect of someone that you have dated for a few
months. To me, this was extraordinary.

Now this experience was with a girl that couldn't have understood a damn thing I said (language barrier) had I tried to have a ten minute conversation with her. Yet she didn't need that to provide the experience that I was looking for. Moreover, this was not some get off as fast as I could experience, there was 'affection' in the act. Seeing as how I believe that affection in these endeavors must stay purely artificial, I fail to see the necessity of 'chat time', even if one wants a 'GFE' (whatever that means).

Now, I do understand how chat time may be important to the providor as a method of security as well as to make her more comfortable with what she's doing, my only point is that I don't see why I have to pay for something that doesn't benefit me. I think a providor should be able to proviode enough artificial sentiment to make the experience memorable without any conversation. Her motivation?.. the money I leave.

Several people have states their opinion that sex without a mutual understanding of the people involved is equivilent to masterbation. I violently dissagree. There are many things that I think improve a sexual situation, genuine empathy is only one.

Edited for format only.

[Edited by justme on 01-12-2001 at 12:55 PM]

[justme]

As you may have noticed, I have found my HTML tags. On this message board system they want you to use ['s instead of <'s... which explains the sudden appearance of {'s in some other part of the 'net in the posts of a certain FH.

Bold... Italic... Apparently no support for font color = or font size =. Maybe investigation is in order...

[Ozzy]

i never said it was an equivilent to masturbation if you didn't get to know the person...i just feel that if all you want to do is get off than save your money and do it yourself. i just think that if thats what it takes to get a certain girls motor running at full throttle than whats the big deal to make her feel comfortable....it is in *YOUR* best interest to get the most bang for your buck and it doesn't cost anything extra to talk or have a glass of wine (and i hate wine) to get the mood going. so it's 10 or 15 mintues of chat...big deal most girls will go 15 minutes overtime and not blink an eye, so you won't miss anything.

now if your just making a point that you'd rather not talk because it's a turn off sometimes, than i think that the level of provider we're discussing here (and we are talking top shelf aren't we?)should not be considered since they aren't that type....... i mean when you are paying upwards of 300+ an hour your paying for more than a "hole" to get off in. holes are all the same girls are not. my whole point is that these "special" girls who provide the elite type GFE do require a little bit in return to bring them to that GFE level that you seek......... aaahhh i'll never get my point across so i'll just get out of this before i get any deeper in it.

[wsb]

WARNING

JUST LIKE HOCKEY: THIRD MAN IN GETS BOOTED

POST REMOVED FOR FLAMING

[Edited by slinkybender on 01-12-2001 at 02:24 PM]

[frog]

oz, actually, some holes are more equal than other holes... not only in their surroundings but in and of themselves.

Val, do you accept the existence of quickie houses and street girls? Then accept that sex need not always be about connections, especially commercial sex [but even non-commercial sex can fall under this category]. I understand if you don't want to be associated with the low-priced crowd, fine, but do not force your views of commercial sex onto others who do not entirely agree with you.

I can vouch that justme is also a lova not a hata.

[frog]

TFH!

[ValerieXXX]

Ok, I apologize for the comments! And yes the really bad part was to be snipped, oops wrong choice in words but you get where I am going with this.
Let me begin by trying to rephrase what it is I am trying to say. I thank all of you first of all for listening and I think we really talked about a very good issue. Ozzy thank you for inviting me, and yes I am resting but just so happens, I am very curious and like to make the profession better for ALL!
I am not a "hole" Yes that is what some want, but I want to be thought of more than that, I am happy to see that I am
Gon't get me wrong, I love sex (boy I need my head examined) and I like to initiate the action. I don't respond well to people who think it is their right to just take it irregardless of the $$$. That turns me off big time! Then I just want to get it over with. Understand JM? I do give a couple cups of coffee, read my reviews, maybe you don't know ME well enough, maybe I never saw you, but that is ok, just as long as you respect my boundaries, which I have the Right to have. You have the right to have what you are looking for and I respect that, just as long as you understand the type of provider I am. Maybe I am not what you want, that's a shame because only you miss out.

[frog]

sb, I don't think what wsb wrote was so bad, certainly not worth *poofing*, and has some merit. Actually, it is much worse than *poofing* because he can never prove that what he wrote is not a flame.

[Slinky Bender]

This is not up for "discussion".

Especially considering your own view points on deleting versus editing messages.

[Edited by slinkybender on 01-12-2001 at 02:43 PM]

[Slinky Bender]

I'll repeat that for those in the cheap seats:

This is not up for discussion.

[wsb]

Ozzy --

Give me a break!

While I would tend to agree that when you start to reach price levels in excess of $500, the girls are generally (not always) better looking than the average $200 girl, but the differences end right there. Do you actually believe that there is some significant difference between the purported "high-end" girls on the net (*** especially) and your average hooker (and take note that I am referring to meaningful differences, i.e., performance, not stuff like better clothing, nicer perfume or that she'll have a glass of wine with you). I really doubt it. Indeed, many, if not most of those purported "high-end" girls used to work in pretty average brothels (see, e.g., Paulina).

--WSB

[frog]

sb, what about the subject of why that was a flame?

[Ozzy]

wsb, maybe you misunderstood me......


but these girls we mostly talk about are not the type that want what goes on in a spanish house or even a julies type place. they are looking for and expecting a higher end clientel and expect more than a slam bam thank you mam type session. thats all i was getting at. i didn't mean wining and dining or any extra activities other than the sex. all i'm saying is that if all you look for is meeting *A* girl and not talking or getting to know her at all, then why see someone like Val or shauna or any highly rated girl and pay inflated $$$ for them if all you really want is "house" or "streetwalker" type session.

now if you reply that a val or shauna type girl give a way better session, then i gotta say that you can't treat them like a house girl or streetwalker and expect that "better session" from them.

[Ozzy]

one more thing wsb.......

you are way wrong if you think a $500 girl is that price because she's better looking. i can give you tons of examples but on a whole your paying that premium for service and not looks. granted that $500 girl has to be at least attractive. take that girl i was involved with that caused the big blow up on jag.......do you think people were paying 800+ an hr because she looked like the girl next door.

[Slinky Bender]

Ozzy,
I'm sure you didn't mean this, but what you said makes it sound like you think that it's ok to treat a "house girl" in a certain way. You don't mean to say someone should get treated in a special way simply because they advertise on the internet, do you ? ( just to be clear, I'm not talking about any person in particular, I'm talking about each and every one ).

[Slinky Bender]

uh, oh, we're crossing posts now.....

another quibble with your choice of words, though......

A lot of guys would pay $800 for someone who "looked like the girl next door". In fact, I've seen numerous posts looking for that, and always had a lot of guys asking me for that ( and is born out by guys wanting to see girls in "street wear" rather than "incall drag" ).

But again, I hink that's probably not what you were refering to.....


[Edited by slinkybender on 01-12-2001 at 03:09 PM]

[Ozzy]

sorry,

but what i said has nothing to do with an internet girl or any girl in particular......and i don't condone any bad treatment of any girl.

it's just that a house girl almost prefers that no words be spoken since her job is to get you off and out as fast as possible.

now a girl who goes indie is doing it so she can control her own sessions as she feels they should be. and my experience is that they prefer a little more intimacy than your typical house girl or incall girl. thats all i was getting at.

[Ozzy]

SB, your right about the $800 thing but thats not what i ment. i know guys who'd pay $800 for a midget.

my whole point is that no one is stupid here....

we all know that when you see a girl and pay 500+ for her services, your not going to get a girl who's gonna just lay down, get you off and show you to the door. well in most cases anyway. i just think that if she wants to talk or get comfortable with you or the whole situation then you should expect that and not scream that she short changed you 10 minutes because she wanted to have a drink first or talk first.

[pswope]

Justme
Although I don't know how to use bold but,let me be clear that my posts were generic and hypotheitcal and not intended to imply any lack of humanity on your part or to characterize your behavior or attitude in any way!

SB
didn't see the WSB post but since I regard him as one of the more intellectually honest and consistent posters in this space ,perhaps erring on the side of leaving stuff up may be in order.

[Slinky Bender]

I agree in general, but must say that while I have not experienced this personally, I have heard more than once about one or two fairly well know "touring pros" who have not only given rather lackluster performances, but booked so close together that they really were rushing guys out the door to meet their next appointment. I do agree that this is in no way what happens in general, but it doesn't have to happen to a guy more than once for him to feel that he needs to "discuss that issue" somewhere before making the decision to book an appointment. It's like the cat who sits on a hot stove. Not only doesn't sit on hot stoves anymore, he doesn't sit on cold one's either. He's just plain out of the business of stoves altogether.

Of course, it's the girls who don't do this that get offended when it gets brought up, because they can't possbily think of why a guy would accuse "them" of being that way. It's not a situation unique here. Same thing happens all over the place : Real estate Brokers, Attorneys, Stock Brokers, etc.....ok, so it's just about every business.

[Slinky Bender]

And oh, BTW, this is the last time I'm going to repeat this:

It's not up for discussion.

[Ozzy]

i think we're both right here.

it's like going into tiffany's and complaining that you don't need any fancy talk or cookies or tea and just give me the damn ring so i can get out of here........and whats with the fancy f*cking box?


my point is ...your paying for it, so you might as well enjoy it.

or else go and shop at JC penny's.

[Rufus Moses]

VV, you seem to contradict yourself. In one place you say you can't get the "better sex" the expensive hookers offer without spending some non-sexual quality time with them. On the other hand, you also say the reason they cost more is not looks, its performance.

I don't think its fair that they should have it both ways.
It seems to me if a vendor decides to not deliver what I've already paid for, I should get a refund. Hookers are, ultimately, vendors.

(yeah yeah yeah, I know ultimately ultimately they are people...big deal...so are we all...its an argument that cuts in every direction).



Val. I don't know you, but from your posts I don't think your need for conversation etc. has anything to do with your being treated with "humanity" or the like. Like many women in this business, you have control issues. You especially have a strong need to be in control of the session. You simply don't want the guy to be in charge...or even 50% in charge. Reserving the right to set the pace of the session is your way of taking control. All the rest of it is just rhetorical packaging.

[robnotbob]

This thread just may be the most compelling thing I've read in the last year (which goes to show ya..that reading Dr. Seuss books every night ain't what it's cracked up to be ):)

[justme]

This thread is starting to make me tired. I promise a reply when I get home from work.

[ValerieXXX]

Robnotbob, I have the hat!!!....lol...
Ozzy, Thank you for everything you said, you are right on!!!!!
Now as to the control issue, You bet I want control!! Let me tell you something if the shoes were on your feet you would want the same thing!!! And don't tell me NO! I work for myself for a reason. To be the provider I want to be. I don't want any arguements!
Now I am going to address a question that was presented to me. "Do you agree to Quicky houses or the street?" Not really, that is my honest answer. I don't agree to anything that renders the lady completly out of control of her own business. No one needs to have some Butthead tell you when to work, what to do, and God forbid if she needs a night off, (remember, the volume!) tell her to come in and allow herself to be raped over and over again because, the pimp has a powertrip!!!! When I started Platinum it was like no other agency out there! In fact it is an Alliance. Guess what? the girls run it now, not me! I don't collect a fee and when I did run it, I collected just enough to pay the bills. Nothing for me, why do you think I worked so damn hard? Now to be fair, I do keep my rates competitive and I am not a clock watcher, that is all the control the date needs. Why would you want to control My business? Switch places and see how fast you would last if I the date were to control you! Not on your life right? So don't expect me to lay down either. I am more than fair, I am a LADY , and that should be good enough.
Ok I am done, unless you insist on making crazy some more.

[Rufus Moses]

Val...just to be clear there are two distinct issues here.

(1) I share your feeling that prostitutes should be in control of the business. Maybe its possible to be an enlightened pimp, but the classic pimp I consider scum.

(2) But in a session, where the customer is paying to experience his fantasy not yours...I don't think its fair or good service for you to demand control.

(this sets aside those guys with the fantasy that the gal demands control...good for them...but not for most of us).

Many other providers don't feel the way you do. Within the bounds of some extreme limits (pain, shit, etc) they are happy to let the guy control the session. But I do appreciate your honesty even in the face of losing business.

[Ozzy]

rufus...by performance i don't mean sex. remember what i told you about sasha...how she puts on a whole show and atmosphere to make the fantasy work...it's the show that leads up to the act that counts for 50% of the session. at least that the way i see it.

and i think i used the term "premium service" and not "performence" but either way it means the same thing......lets not word play.

[Rufus Moses]

For those prices the girl should be flexible. If you want a big show before sex, fine, then she should do that. But if someone else just wants to skip the production number and get down to the nitty gritty...hey its his dime.

If my taste is to not have a long courtship phase to the session, it just seems backwards for someone to say you can have that with a $200 girl but not a $800 girl. The more I pay the more it should be *my* show.

Again, not saying the long preamble isn't great...for you. But at high prices it shouldn't be a requirement!

Or...if the provider feels its something she simply must have...then the provider should somehow make that clear before taking the money.

[Slinky Bender]

rufus,
While I agree that a provider should give some idea of what to expect ( especially if it is "outside the norm" ), I disagree that the consumer always has the right to call the shots simply because they are paying the freight, regardless of price. Taken to an extreme, this would lead to things like saying that every expensive girl has to do Greek ( not exactly, but I think you get my point ). I can think of all sorts of examples in other fields: many commissioned artists retain some sort of creative freedoms, and have the right to "walk" over differences. Even attorneys have the right to walk if they can't agree with their clients on the way to present the case.

I don't think it has anything to do with price. Someone has the right, if they so choose, to run their sessions their way ( hey, it isn't Bouley that says "have it your way, it's Burger King". And while certain high end places like Le Cirque have always catered to favored customer's peccidillos, they don't do it for everyone, and most high end restaurants won't let you put ketchup on the fois gras ). The problem sometimes lies in that a provider has a certain look or other appeal that a guy really likes. He schedules a session, and then is dissapponted because it isn't run the way he wanted. however, there was ampleinformation available as to how the session was going to go before he booked it, but it was ignored.

A number of years ago I went to what was, at the time, my favorite, cheap pasta place in the East Village ( and if I'm saying it was cheap........). The person who I was with asked about the menu, since she had not been there before. i told her all the pasta were good, but that i would stay away from the fish and filet mignon, since a good quality pice of tuna, etc. was more than they were charging for the entre. Well, she ordered the fish, and guess wht ? She was disappointed.

Conversely, my most frequent oreder at a restaurant is "surprise me". I hope to get whatever the kitchen knows is best. Also, most of the time at massage places when the question "Hard or soft" comes up, I try to discearn what the person thinks they do best. I would rather have a good soft massage than a bad firm one, even though I prefer hard.

Of course, this is all counteracted by my agreeing that I personally wouldn't go for that kind of $ unless I knew the session would be run the way I liked ( ok, ok, so you know i wouldn't go for that kind of $ no matter what, I'm just trying to make a point ). That point being that it's ok to find the way someone plans on running a session not to your liking and thus not book it, but not ok to demand that everyone run session your way just becuase they are a certain price. I also agree that I would think that at certain price levels you should get less arguments about certain aspects of session management. Of course, one tangent to this discussion that I will point out for the benefit of a mute friend of mine is that if one is a regular customer of an agency, that one benefit is that they should know what you expect and even when you are seeing someonme new that they should ensure the items on "your menu" are "prepared the way you like them".

[frog]

oz, I respectfully disagree... I believe that a girl's worth to me -- that is, the sum of her looks, and fantasy appeal, and sexual performance -- does not have a [i] perfect correlation with her price. I have had enough $1000+ disappointments versus $200 mindbenders to justify my view. imo, price is more a function of demand than supply. If a girl is lucky/smart enough to create the demand, perhaps through the internet, then she will get her high price.

Note that I am not saying women who charge a high price are not beautiful, or good in bed -- just that it is not necessarily so. Ask xyz about Julie's Chloe. I do think that the bd's top 100 are chock full of women who are not very attractive to me -- this however is a different set of women than high-priced women.

[Ozzy]

frog i'm not saying all of them but as a rule of thumb thats how it goes.....

as for chloe...she's a diamond in the rough just like when i find an exceptional diamond in the higher range indie area....like my friend in conn or the one xyz and myself shared recently (not at the same time). they come from all walks of the biz...but a chloe is harder to come by at that $$ range, and while our friends still look for her equal in that range i have found a dozen like her in the higher $$ range.

this talking in code is not making any sense is it....?


and yes your definition is the same as mine....so it's more like 33% sex ,33% fantasy, 33% looks +1% for the tip i guess.

[Edited by Ozzy on 01-12-2001 at 07:32 PM]

[Rufus Moses]

Ah the kinder gentler Slinkybender...

First, I don't think many other "service industry" references really apply. For example, a restaurant takes care of many people in parallel. And it has to have the ingrediants on hand. Hookers always have the ingredients with them and can lavish all their attention on one customer.

I am not saying all providers have to provide greek on demand. I am saying that where there are standard expectations about sessions, where a provider has an unusual restriction she needs to say that up front. And where its a question of aesthetics (slow vrs. fast), that should be the customers call.

And paying more should matter for something. More dollars should mean more value. And when it comes to sex value is a very personal thing. There is no Zagat's...each John determines what is value for him. An $800 hooker should make him happier than a $200 hooker.

But my point is not really logistical or even economic. Its psychological.

There are, for example, some providers who would be happy to perform X, Y, or Z...as long as its *their* idea. If the guy suggests it they may well say no because it will feel like they have given up control. They've conflated their own psychological problems regarding power and control with sex, and thats why they are hookers in the first place, but its also why they ultimately fail to satisfy.

Their need to control always comes before the customers wish for sexual satisfaction. If I have to pay her to play into my sex trip, why shouldn't she pay me to the extent that I have to play into her power and control trip?

This is the crux of the problem. In the mind of the hooker money and even sex are just proxies for power. They are playing out their control issues by becoming hookers. But those very issues prevent them from providing the very thing the client wants...control over his own sexual satisfaction.

The solution? Find hookers that don't have significant power and control issues. And good luck in doing that...

[Edited by Rufus Moses on 01-12-2001 at 07:46 PM]

[Slinky Bender]

Just to be argumentative, I've seen everything you are talking about from attorney's I've dealt with ( except with the change of what the sevice was ).

[MrNY]

Capt. Starbucks .......

[ValerieXXX]

Oh boy. Ok this is it then I am having some ice cream then going to bed.
I have no problem with fulfilling any fantasies. I go to the end of the earth for some one, my reviews reflect that so I am not going to "prove" myself to anyone. You like what you read then good I will be happy to accomadate. I am not saying that the session has to go MY way, I think you misunderstand. This Hooker (which I find the word incredibly demeaning),yeah, like I have no f*&#king feelings, is talking about certain control issues that you don't understand. I am not saying that you can't expect a session to be satisfying, but with some "hookers", we have feelings, we are not on drugs so the impact of the session and the way we are treated is truly felt. Hey I am not a machine, I just want common courtesy and to be treated like a human being. That is what any person deserves. Now as for some posts I do detect some I don't know , Woman haters? Maybe some like to be with "hookers" because they hate women so much. We are easily accesable to people such as this and they get their rocks off by calling us demeaning names and demand things that go far beyond, like how many cum loads the "bitch" has to take because after all she is just a slut, and I am throwing money at her, so she should do what I want, fuck the fact she is flesh and blood, I am angry at women so I will take it out on the closest whore I can get my hands on.
Sounds a little off the wall don't it? Guess what by some reponses I have read, that is exactly what you are saying, just I have the balls to put it in these words. Why do you want to get a rise out of me? I did nothing but run a clean, honest, ethical business, and I work hard at it. As I said my reviews (another demeaning thing)reflect that!!!!! All BULLSHIT aside, answer that if YOU can have the balls!!!!!!!!
Slinky, you run a good board, and I really wish you all the luck in the world, you have defended me, as to the others who really love the "art" bless you, you make it worth it!!!!!!!!!!

[frog]

oh slinky, I just realised that H stands for hero.

[justme]

Tall and tan and young and lovely... I wonder if I would've paid to talk to Astrud.

This is gonna be long, so grab yourself a snifter of Remy and sit back. Or better yet, skip the post. Or best yet, string whatever words are here into the most offensive sentiment you can.

Ozzy

if thats what it takes to get a certain girls motor running at full throttle than whats the big deal to make her feel comfortable
I don't give a damn if the providehr is enjoying herself, as long as she convinces me that she is. She's working. I don't really give a damn if the cooks at the restaurants I frequent enjoy cooking, either. That's not to say that I want her to have a bad time, it really is pure ambivolence.

i think that the level of provider we're discussing here (and we are talking top shelf aren't we?)
I think a top shelf provider, a true professional, is someone who can take my green, strip and fuck me like a girlfriend of ten years. A professional has two motivations to do a good job: their salary and pride in their job.

now if you reply that a val or shauna type girl give a way better session, then i gotta say that you can't treat them like a house girl or streetwalker and expect that "better session" from them.
Shit, if I were to treat a lady like a tramp, I'd have a much bigger net worth right now.

but on a whole your paying that premium for service and not looks
Exactly! I'm paying for premium service. With money. Not with my sparkling personality.

it's like going into tiffany's and complaining that you don't need any fancy talk
Well, I don't go to Tiff's, but when I shop at the stores I pay a premium to shop at, I expect them to accomodaye whatever I'm looking for. If I go in and want a lot of advice about what ties will work with a particular shirt then they give it to me. Likewise, if all I want them to do is point me to the socks and check me out as quickly as possible then they give that to me. The only thing that they ask of me is that I pay and that I don't act like a thug in their stores (and they're willing to overlook the thug bit if I'm big pimpin')


WSB - A little birdie told me what was there, thanks.

frog -

I can vouch that justme is also a lova not a hata.
Damn, and I just wanted to be a playa.

Val -

Ok, I apologize for the comments!
accepted...

am not a "hole" Yes that is what some want
If I paid your kind of rates and just got a hole for an hour, I'd be pissed. What I want is someone who can turn it on at will. And as hard as you may find it to believe, I found it. And for significantly cheaper than what you charge.

I don't respond well to people who think it is their right to just take it irregardless of the $$$
I don't respond well to service industries that take my $$$ and then try to tell me how I should be treated.

Maybe I am not what you want, that's a shame because only you miss out.
maybe

No one needs to have some Butthead tell you when to work, what to do
I'm sorry, but I think you just lost the sympathy of anyone who's ever worked an honest day.

Why would you want to control My business?
I don't give a damn what phone system you use. Or what payroll service. Or anything, really. The only thing that I want some say over is how you treat me. Seeing as how people like me are paying people like your bills, I think this is reasonable.

Woman haters? Maybe some like to be with "hookers" because they hate women so much. We are easily accesable to people such as this and they get their rocks off by calling us demeaning names and demand things that go far beyond, like how many cum loads the "bitch" has to take because after all she is just a slut, and I am throwing money at her, so she should do what I want, fuck the fact she is flesh and blood, I am angry at women so I will take it out on the closest whore I can get my hands on.
Yawn.

Right, people disagree with you so now they're women haters. You need to get the fuck over it.

Why do you want to get a rise out of me?
All I want is for wsomeone like you to get a rise out of me.

pswope

Wasn't talkin' about you.

SB.APM.TFH -

and most high end restaurants won't let you put ketchup on the fois gras
If I'm ever in a restaurant and someone tries to make me eat a certain way, I'm walking. Now, I'm not so full of myself that I think I know everything. I'm all about educating the consumer and letting them know how things are normally appreciated, but if in the face of the new information I still decide I want the ketchup then I want my high end waiter to say, "Heinz or Hunts?" Fuck it, call me uncivilized but when I'm spending my money you can watch me defame your food.

Conversely, my most frequent oreder at a restaurant is "surprise me".
Well, that's you. Do you begrudge people who order off the menu?

Rufus Moses

For those prices the girl should be flexible
And she should have good cardiovascular and muscle fitness. Seriously though, A-men.

Or...if the provider feels its something she simply must have...then the provider should somehow make that clear before taking the money.
Or she shouldn't charge you for that time... unless you want it, too.

[Slinky Bender]

Do you begrudge people who order off the menu?

No, but when I see someone go to a place like Palm ( a famous Steak House ), and order the chicken ( which was put on the menu for the occasional non-red meat eater who gets dragged there ), I filter out anything they have to say about the meal as "noise". Same for
people who want to put the ketchup on the fois gras. They don't get to comment on the food and have me listen to what they have to say about it. But more importantly, I do begrudge people who try to order what's not on the menu and then get huffy that the restaurant won't grant their requests since, after all, they're paying. And last time I checked, the restaurant writes the menu, not the diner.


If I'm ever in a restaurant and someone tries to make me eat a certain way, I'm walking
I have no problem with that. But if you read reviews which said "It's a great place, but you have to eat it their way", and then went there and complianed that they wanted you to eat it their way since you were paying all this $$, I would have no sympathy.

Similarly, if a provider had a bunch of reviews which described a very proscribed "ritual" that she went thru, but that it was great, and was 2 hours, and you decided that wanted to see her, so you booked an appointment, but then, when you got there, you anounced to her the way you wanted to have your session was very different, and since you were paying her "all this money" that you had the right to have it any way you wanted. I would say she has the right to say "no thanks, I run the session the way I run the session".

And while not entirely anologous: if a client of yours hired you to do some consulting, and when you got there put you in a small room with a chain smoker, they wouldn't have the right to say "we're paying you all this money, that's the way we want you to work ( i.e. with Al, our IT guy, and he likes working in a small closed room with lots of smoke ).

I don't think there is any question that just because the client is paying it doesn't mean they get whatever they want. It's just a question of where the line is. I contend that as long as anyone discloses what their "rules" are, that they are entitled to make whatever rules they want, no matter how silly they may seem. It's up to the other side to choose if they can live with those constraints. If they can't, then they shouldn't use the service.

To use a silly example that I used earlier this evening: if Jessica Alba advertised that she would do 2 hours sessions for $10, but you had to go to Disneyland , get the full body Goofy costume, and wear it the entire time, guys would line up around the block for sessions. It just seems that some would try to take off the costume, using "well I'm paying" to justify it. You may say, well we're not talking about $10. But, the $ are all relative. $800 to one guy is ultra high end, so he feels he should get "extra", and it's bottom end for someone else ( just like anyone driving slower than you on the freeway is a moron, but anyone driving faster is a maniac ). Now, the Jessica Alba for $10 is extreme enough to talk about "norms", but once you are in the $200 to $800 range, who's to say what's high/low/middle ( hell, it's all high to me ).

And lastly, unless I'm mis-reading, the side that is talking about the need for some talk time before hand is also talking about the "hour" going over by at least that much time. The other side keeps complaining about being charged for talk-time which they don't want to pay for. So, I'm not so sure that it's only one side which isn't listening to the other.

[frog]

Anyone have a contact number for Jessica? tia, no need for reviews

[Ozzy]

we all have our likes and dislikes and what i think is the right way is your wrong way and visa versa....we're all intitled to our opinions, BUT... i will say this, the fact that you will rarely hear me say anything bad about a girl i meet and almost always praise them means one of three things......i'm a very easy person to please....no, i can sure pick 'em......no, or i enjoy myself a lot more than most of you do..........YES!


and i'm silver now na na na na na :p






[Edited by Ozzy on 01-13-2001 at 01:48 AM]

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

Silver?

We don't need no stinking silver.

[Ozzy]

so which pretty girl wants to come play with my shinny new SILVER medal. :rolleyes:

[frog]

ozzy, don't take this the wrong way, but sometimes it's harder to respect the girls that you haven't met or have DECIDED NOT to meet, yet they still deserve some respect.

[ValerieXXX]

Yeah Froggie tell that to JM. They still deserve respect!!!!
Well JM, You basically told me to Fuck off, so who the hell are you? As far as I am concerned, I run my business they way I always have and that is what put me on top. Some things will never change, but you see who you want, because I sure as hell don't want to see you! So you go F yourself, I don't need to come to this forum and read about the next way I am going to be insulted and how I am just a piece of shit by somebody like you! You gotta a problem? Don't take it out on me because that is what started this whole damn thread. I don't give a flying shit about how you think women like me should be treated as long as the people I deal with understand that the session is mutual, and we BOTH control it!!!!! Now If you want to continue this shit then take it elsewhere. I don't need it and sure as hell the Gentlemen on this board don't need to watch a lady get insulted, a woman who put her time in and is ETHICAL, do you know what the word means? These people dealt with me and they know me and that is good enough for me! They will always get their "premium" service and they know what they want. It doesn't take a rocket scientist long to figure out that you want the best service, you Both have to give a little! I sure do!

[Slinky Bender]

OK.

Val and justme:

Since we know enough about how you feel about eachother, we don't need to see anymore love notes from either of you directed towards the other. I don't think you are going to resolve your differences in this thread. So.....please don't either of you direct anymore coments towards the other in this thread.

We''ll pick up the action in some new thread somewhere else.

[Ozzy]

frog i agree with you completely!

i'm not asking anyone to respect or kiss ayones ass.....

they do what they do and i do what i do.

fact is, i enjoy myself a whole lot more........and i ain't just talkin about hobbying. it shows in some peoples words. ;)

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

DAMN....

I just got home from the gym. Somebody's broken into my home, has taken all my belongings, and replaced them with exact duplicates.....


Noting some of the fire above, thought I'd inject a tad of levity....

Hoping that this forum doesn't become a 'babe-bashing' community. It ain't kewl. For example, there were some really negative things said about Monica....she may not be your cup of tea...and maybe you didn't get her motor running....

Point is, it didn't work between ya, but that's not saying that she wouldn't work with anybody.

This is a thing of YMMV perhaps.

Let's keep the negative crap else where. If you have seen a girl, but didn't like the service, you'll vote with your wallet. You can always say the most important phrase of any review "Will see again" "Won't see again"

I inserted Monica's name, but she could be anybody. Val, or Betty, or Lisa, or Champagne.....

I think you get the point. Be nice.

[Rufus Moses]

Val...you contradict yourself. In an earlier post you said, in no uncertain terms, that you must control the session. Now you say control is shared.

But please don't get so upset. This isn't really about you. Its about prostitution in general.

[frog]

not that someone can't kiss booty, if that's what they want...

[frog]

OETT, if the point of this board is to disseminate information, then I think a few negative reviews are defintely in order. I mean, if a girl cannot accept valid criticisim and learn from that, she really should not be reading these boards. Though if this board is for people in this industry to shoot the breeze, then we shouldn't have any reviews.

In any case, I don't think it's too hard to be polite. Pretend you are sitting face to face with all of us before you type.

[ValerieXXX]

My dear Rufus, The control I speak of hon was how we were treated. Yes I must have control of that. Now for sessions, we both do, things have to be shared, one can not do it alone!!!!.....lol... (I would love to be the fly on the wall for that ) That is what I mean, somehow in the midst of all the negativity that message got lost. I have always said that and it is what I believe strongly.
Now the words, hooker and prostitution are in society demeaning words. I understand what I do for a living and what that is comprised of, but in the face of what society deams the definitions of the words to mean, I really consider those phrases to be insulting. Big time!!!! I am not on this board to be called terrible names, I am also not hiding behind anonimity, I am very public, and that is the reason why I must under all circumstances protect myself against undue and unprovoked assaults. I merely tried to relay an honest message and quite frankly, it was twisted. Go back and read this whole thread, you will see what I am talking about. I tried to be civil and explain in every which way, including sharing some very personal and painful things. Now how would you react? When I am cornered I turn into a wolf. I fight, that is my nature. I protect my rights and the rights of others in this, yes date and provider. Now how am I a bad person? Just because i do this for a living means that I give up my right to be an individual who sacrifices herself for her family? If that is the case I will retire tomorrow. I am seriously thinking about it now in light of all this. I need to speak to my foundation this evening I will let you know. I have not been doing well mentally, this is an abusive profession as you can see and I am not readY to come back, maybe if ever. I have to see how things change. I am sorry.

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

Val

It's like I had told you long ago, personal change requires inward searching. And it's not easy.

All I can say is, it's worth the trip.

Good luck on your journey.

[wsb]

I wasn't going to even return to UG after yesterday's ridiculously heavy-handed moderating, but I was curious to see how the Justme/Val saga turned out.

Having read what can only be described as an appallingly inappropriate attack by Val on another contributor, I am shocked that this post remains yet my rather benign post was deleted and replaced by SB's comments.

I am certainly no expert on discussion boards, but if there is one thing that will piss people off it is a lack of consistency in the "editorial" standards and bias toward any particular group.

Just to be clear, I do not wish Val or any other contributor any ill will whatsoever. I am simply disappointed that this would seem to be a clear and conclusive indication that johns and prostitutes simply cannot have a frank discussion. I think that's rather sad, as both sides would clearly benefit from such discussions.

In the future, if anyone has any issues with my posts (here or elsewhere), I would appreciate it if they would address them on the board or send me an e-mail to discuss privately. I am more than happy to listen to opposing views and admit when I have been mistaken or offended anyone.

All the best,

WSB

[Slinky Bender]

Fine, wsb, you want them issued here, here you'll have it.

You have contributed absolutely nothing to this board. However, you feel free to jump into a fight which has nothing to do with you, just to stir the pot. Frankly I'm not interested.

"I wasn't going to even return to UG"

Too bad you did. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

And don't bother posting a follow up, it will be deleted. If you want to go piss on someone's new rug, do it in your own house. Go kick your dog, beat your girlfriend, or whatever else you do to get your kicks.

[wsb]

SB --

Well, I guess you can delete this if you'd like, but I'm sorry you seem to find the need to do that and sorry you feel the way you do overall.

Regarding contributing, you deleted my first post on the board, rather than providing any type of editorial guidance, so I'm not quite sure what you expect. Again, sorry if you found it objectionable, but if that's the case I think that could have been handled much better. Remember, you solicited MY participation not the other way around.

In the interest of bringing this to a close, I'm going to ignore your insults, but you, of all people, should really refrain from casting such aspersions.

Regards,

WSB

[Ozzy]

i certainly don't want to add to this thread but when you say that "johns" and "prostitutes" can't co-exist on a board your wrong.....


all it takes is a little mutual respect. by calling them "prostitutes" and "hookers" your not exactly going to illicit a good response from them. we know what they do and they know what they do but it doesn't need to be shouted in their face. if a girl called me a "john" during the session i'd walk right out, i expect her to do the same if she were called a hooker....in here or in a session.

this isn't jag or some other locker room discussion board. theres a place for everything and this is a place to post and read both sides opinions on the hobby. if you want to say that it creates a *** atmosphere than go right ahead but the difference is......*** does not let you voice your opinions if they differ from his or his primidonnas.

[robnotbob]

Wow..you miss a little you miss alot.

Val: Will you wear the Cat in the Hat during our session :)

Restaurants: I bring this anecdote up alot. I was in Docks on Third Ave a couple of years ago with a client and I ordered the Tuna something or other special and I told the waiter I wanted it well done. He said to me : I have another tuna that I would be happy to serve you well done, but I won't allow you to have this one well done. it's too special a fish. I laughed and thought he was looking out for me. I went ahead and ordered the "non special" tuna and enjoyed it well done.

Should I have told him to fuck himself, I'm paying, gimme the Tuna special or appreciated his candor and done what I did?? Not that it matters now, just thought there might have been a fit somewhere in here.

[frog]

ozzy, uuurrrr...

I have no problems being called a john; as a matter of fact, in some circles [jag], we call ourselves johns. I am not thicked skinned -- a john is simply one who engages in commercial sex. And, I've done that. Similarly, from dictionary.com, a prostitute is:

pros·ti·tute (prst-tt, -tyt) n.

*One who solicits and accepts payment for sex acts.

Yes words are powerful and can be used to hurt, but 1) I think that this is a fairly neutral word, and 2) the use and intent of a word is often more important than the word itself. Do you think that Xaviera Hollander hates herself because she wrote The Happy Hooker? I don't think so. I think that justme used the word 'prostitute' in an extremely neutral way. I would think that it would be very hard for any of us to use that word in a harmful way since we [well, I assume most]are all in this game. It's like brothers calling each other 'nigger'.

On the other hand justme, Val is very sensitive about these labels [as we have found out]. Thus in posts to Val, we should refrain from using such language. The real life parallel would be: I would never speak about this crap to, say my mother.

[justme]

A while up on the thread I asked people to let me know if I drifted into the realm of offensive. I guess our APM has done just that.

So, first of all I'd like to apologize for any hurt feelings. I really didn't mean to insult anyone, and was just hoping for illuminating dialog. Perhaps I got too defensive and took some things as insults when they weren't. I'm sorry.

Val (if SB will allow it), you seem like a great woman, and I'm sure that you have a great service model. Hell, how can I argue with success? The legend speaks for itself.

I spent some time thinking about my posts and the replies, and I think I see everyone's point. It only makes sense that a little conversation will loosen up a situation and allow a girl to raise her service to another level. Maybe my problem is that I've always stayed too close to the low rent part of the biz. Upon reflection I realize that I've never been with a top shelf girl, so I'm just talking out of my ass.

Given the large amounts of money people spend on these girls, it must be worth it. So I suppose there's something I'm missing. Maybe some day I can save up my pennies and see what it is.

Anyway, sorry to all.

5000

[frog]

yea! all one happy, slightly dysfunctional family again!!

[pswope]

Justme
given the amounts of $ people spend on high end girls,it must be worth it


value is a totally subjective thing. having experienced a pretty broad spectrum of sex workers,I can say for myself that in my experience there is absolutely no correlation between price and quality of experience(I've seen a lady,who charges 150/hr ,who has far better skills and cares more about customer satisfaction than the $500/hr ladies I've seen).

[Ozzy]

froggie, (i like that name)

i was pretty much referrng to "hooker" but the term prositiute can be avoided at times also.




[Edited by Ozzy on 01-14-2001 at 09:34 AM]

[Ozzy]

pswope,

i agree but i was more or less referring to the total experience which includes the preliminaries to the act and the exclusivity of the girl.

again it's not the rule for all, but in most cases. i mean you don't always get better food and service in the more expensive restaurants, but a majority of the time you do.

[ValerieXXX]

Ok, I'm back. I had a good cry yesterday and I will get over it
Jm I understand what you mean too, I just the last post and maybe you are right. Listen just find out what it is, read the reviews and let the lady's number of years in the biz factor into your decision. You have the right to have your say in the session, I never disagreed. Just now you all know how sensitive I am, please give it a chance. I worked hard in the industry for years, I earned my respect and I am very dedicated, I work when I am injured (Many know what I talk about), I keep all my commitments and I give 110% of what I have. I also have been a little moody and blue since Christmas, I am mourning a loss I suffered last year that almost took my life on Christmas Day, so maybe I have been a little unfair and for that I am sorry. Truce?
Robnotbob, I have the hat and it is waiting!!!!! I love tall things....lol.....
Ozzy thank you for your insight, I hope this message is understood, I know people are leary of the *** list and yes I totally agree and I have voiced it to *** himself that there are some that DO NOT belong there because of the bullshit games they played to get on the list. Hey I apologize for them but just keep in mind I have been on it for 3 years, and I am on many lists some as #1 Dudes I earned it!!!!!!!!!
Ok Happy Family once again :0)

[Rufus Moses]

Recently in a very public letter *** denied that girls had to do anything to get on his list or that girls on the list did anything to get there.

I admire your courage in going public on this here.

But why do the ladies put up with him?

[Phantom]

Val,

Thank you for voicing your opinions and then for the courage to stand by them. It takes a strong person to stand behind their opinions. Keep in mind that you are not alone, feeling blue at this time of the year. It affects allot of people. Val, please the next time you are feeling down think about the following;

No matter how bad you think your situation is, there is always someone, somewhere, who is worse off then you. Think about the positives in your life, don't dwell on the negatives.

God knows that there are times when you question yourself for taking the high road in life when you see others succeeding who have no regard for ethics. People will judge you not only by who you are, but how you got there. By being sensitive and caring for other people you accrue allot of positive karma. They say that things come back to you ten fold, and I'm sure that there are times that you seriously doubt this, but you have to keep the faith, for if you can not believe in yourself, who can you believe in?

Val, kick back and enjoy the warm sunshine. Relax and enjoy those around you who you love and love you. Take care of them, for they are your strength.

Maybe one day you'll once again give me the pleasure of steaming another lobster for you. ;~)

[Phantom]

RM,

The answer is real simple, it's the cost of doing business.

The upside, the gains $$$ to their yearly income far outweigh the fees allegedly requested by *** for a high placement on his list and protection from bad reviews.

[Rufus Moses]

Well, I think many of us might guess that...On the other hand, this business doesn't depend on ***...it was around long before him, and will continue long after him...more like *** depends on this business.

Any of these women could tell him to take a hike and do just fine thanks...

But I'd rather hear what it feels like in first person. I am sure Val could write a book.

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Rufus Moses



Any of these women could tell him to take a hike and do just fine thanks...



The question is then, will their income levels remain the same?

I, too, would like to hear some first person accounts as to why these women put up with this.

[Ozzy]

slink, i found a little glich in the UG software.....

from the general boards main page......you can't access page 6 of this thread. 1-5 and last page....which is this one...page 7.

[frog]

Once you get to 7, click on 6...

[Ozzy]

yes i know that, but a glitch is a glitch...besides how many people will notice that it skipped a page.

[Slinky Bender]

You guys are just trying to see if you can get this over 200 posts and 10 pages, right ?

[frog]

I don't think it is a glitch -- it is just a matter of how much can fit, sort of like: for you frog, greek is out of the question :D

[frog]

we want this thread to reach 5000 posts before the whole board does.

[Allen]

frog is correct Ozzy. What happens when there is a 20 page thread?

(with you guys this can easily happen)

[Rufus Moses]

Lets not let all this meta-discussion break the conversation...I think many are interested in a professionals (i.e. Val's) view of why women play ***'s game...

[Slinky Bender]

frog,
are you waiting for someone to catch that ?

[Ozzy]

rufus,

i think most are really naive about *** and his actions on and off his board. most who first make the list know little about it in the beguinning, and if they are from out of town they know less. it (the trouble) seems to be centered in the north east (ny and philly) and most of the girls i've met from the list know little or nothing about the "whore wars" that have gone on, on the ny and philly boards lately. some have stopped touring these areas just to stay out of it. having known a few of the local area girls who were on *** at one time or another...they all have said to me that they never knew how they got there and admitted that though it brought them tons of inquires they asked to be removed from the list to avoid the over exposure on such a site and to LE. this was long before the accusations of pay offs and freebies were mentioned so none of these girls knew of any of that.

[frog]

slinky, catch what?

damn, I did it it again

[Slinky Bender]

Britney Frog ?

[frog]

I refuse to be tricked into moving closer to doomsday.

d'oh dagnabit!!

[kaybo]

There was a Brazilian provider a while back that I met at Tiffany's when they were on B'way and 50th, then she went indy (high 40's near B'way). Her name was Francis and she would insist on 3 cups even if the session was only a half hour! Sometimes she would let me stay longer for that third one. Needless to say I always left a little raw, but very happy.

[Rufus Moses]

"what a frog wants...what a frog needs...it makes him happy but it sure ain't free..."

[Slinky Bender]

kaybo,
A friend of mine saw an indy in NJ who he said was the same way. Hey, JF, who was that again ?

[MrNY]

Ozzie shoud be knocked back to Bronze member :)

"...a glitch is a glitch..."

[frog]

rufus -- that song fits me much better. The first one is much better suited for MrNY -- I can only wish I can be like that, which brings me to...

MY GOD, kaybo, 3 cups in 30 minutes?!

[ValerieXXX]

The thing I am saying about the last post I made, was why if you knew someone was not being ethical would he allow them to be ranked? Isn't that going against the purpose for the ranking in the first place, I did not intend to stir anything else up.
Phantom, hmmmmmm, would love another lobster, thank you for the heartfelt words, I will remeber them :0)

[ValerieXXX]

Hey!!! who do you have to boink to get the siver ranking?......LOL.................

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

[i]if you knew someone was not being ethical would he allow them to be ranked? Isn't that going against the purpose for the ranking in the first place[/B]

Valerie....using the term *** and ethical in the same sentence is an oxymoron. And those fruits closest to the tree are a mere reflection of *** himself.

[Slinky Bender]

Val,
That should be obvious.......

[Ozzy]

;)

[frog]

ozzy, at least now he admits it

[Allen]

Val,

I think that would be whoever answers mail at webmaster@utopiaguide.com :)

[Slinky Bender]

Val,
There's a reason we keep him in the back room......

[Ozzy]

another FH!


;)

[ValerieXXX]

What? keep who in the back room?
Yes I finally understood my oxymoron!!!! Got it! :0)
So about the siver?

[Allen]

Val,

Silver goes to those who "boink"
webmaster@utopiaguide.com

[Ozzy]

ok you want you glich here it is....

when you click on the arrow for newest post under thread. it takes you to page 7. when you click on the arrow for last post you go to page 8.

a-ha.

[Allen]

works fine for me.

maybe we should have a "pink" level for some....

[Ozzy]

oh yeah, now it does......thats because my post fixed it.

thats alright.....you'll see who also found the glitch, and he missed the most important page in the thread because of it......

[Edited by Ozzy on 01-17-2001 at 06:25 PM]

[frog]

TFOH!

oz, refresh refresh -- you have to refresh

[Ozzy]

nope, not refresh. that works good here.

[guy catelli]

please allow me to introduce myself to you. my name is guy catelli.

i am a connoisseur of fine human beings. having read your posts to this thread, i must say that you are among the finest human beings i know of.

[Ozzy]

please allow me to introduce myself, i'm a man of wealth and taste. i've been around for long long years stolen many mans souls and their faith. i was around when jesus christ had his moments of doubt and pain.........

pleased to meet you..... hope you guessed my name.

(k richards/m jagger 1968)


ok ok i couldn't resist.....



but i did say i was the devil somewhere here didn't i.




[Edited by Ozzy on 01-17-2001 at 08:19 PM]

[Slinky Bender]

Does anyone know of any internet boards where they talk about "the hobby"? I was looking for one and seem to have stumbled upon this place.....

[Rufus Moses]

i am a connoisseur of fine human beings.


eat me









[Edited by Rufus Moses on 01-18-2001 at 01:27 AM]

[Slinky Bender]

Rufus,

I realize that was funny, but was also slightly on the far side of "flame bait". So what am I supposed to do now ?

[guy catelli]

whether this board has developed into a forum worthy of the cultural capital of the world -- or just another 'dog' pound -- pun intended.

note the transaction: i offer a bouquet to a lady, and ... you know what i mean?

i placed the emphasis on "will", because, as Outsider pointed out, the 'kennel' is the default setting. so, failure to require the high road is tantamount to chosing the low one.


[Edited by guy catelli on 01-18-2001 at 02:50 AM]

[robnotbob]

Rufus: Priceless.

'nuff said

[fletch]

gc, dogs don't laugh.

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by fletch
gc, dogs don't laugh.

i admit it, fletch. however, the metaphorical moniker is not my invention, its their own.

and, fwiw, the 'laughing' crocuta crocuta is often confused with a canine. see: http://www.fotos-online.de/deutsch/m/14/14314.htm

at all events, a lot of dogs get nervous when they see a new carpet, and therefore tend to 'spray' it.

but, i think that self-attributions might be useful guides to client (and escort) self-categorization. i'll pick up the topic over on the other thread.

guy

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by robnotbob
Rufus: Priceless.

'nuff said

... in fact, the comment was coarse and vulgar, and thus cheap and common -- the very opposite of priceless.

the context in which it arose demonstrates (for the umpteenth time) that poster's serious 'problem' with women. but, at least he 'owns' his own views -- he's not merely a parrot squawking 'me too'.

[Ozzy]

me too! ;)

[fletch]

Well, now you're getting somewhere. Parrots can mimic a laugh, at least.

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by Ozzy
me too! ;)

http://www.kayejaye.com/monkies.jpg

[Ozzy]

well monkey see monkey do is more like it......but at least your not ignoring me. :rolleyes:

[robnotbob]

Guy: I happened to have thought that his post was actually funny. Hey there's a concept. Why is it on the boards you have posted to, when ANYONE disagrees with you, they're wrong and you're right.

I don't know you, nor do I want to, but please do not tell me that I am a parrot or what I should think is funny or not.

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by robnotbob
Guy: I happened to have thought that his post was actually funny.

did i say or imply that you didn't think that public rudeness and vulgarity directed at me was funny?

Hey there's a concept. Why is it on the boards you have posted to, when ANYONE disagrees with you, they're wrong and you're right.

that isn't a 'concept'. rather, it's a false accusation, put in the form of a question based upon a false premise.

1. no one that i know of, or that you know, or that anyone else knows of, automatically reverses their position anytime 'anyone' disgrees with them.

2. 'anyone' is not at all the issue. there's a tiny minority of individuals who attack my position that even so-called 'wh*res' are entitled to the same human rights as the rest of us. upon coming to these boards, i could not have been more surprised to learn that such people actually exist. but, such people who attack me for it are very small in number.

3. do you expect me to change my mind and agree that escorts should be publically discussed as mere objects of sexual utility rather than honest workers? am i not within my rights to disagree with that view? or, am i just supposed to say, ~oh, okay, someone disagrees with me -- so i must be wrong that the fundamental rights of labor apply to escorts.~

4. or, to turn to the utilitarian side of the issue, are you disagreeing that Romantics get more mileage than cynics? i've got 30 years of experience that prove otherwise.

I don't know you, nor do I want to, ...

{another sigh} well, if that's the case, you're going about not "want(ing) to know (me)" in a counterproductive manner.

but please do not tell me that I am a parrot

no biggie. so, there -- i agreed with you about something. okay?

or what I should think is funny or not.

i didn't say you shouldn't think a cheap shot is funny; i said 'cheap' is the opposite of 'priceless'.

i thought the laughing hyena reference, the parrot line, and the 3 Monkees were funny. i guess others don't have the same rights as you. but, at least, the references were gentle kidding -- not nasty and vulgar. how's that for a 'concept'?



[Edited by guy catelli on 01-18-2001 at 11:47 PM]

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by Ozzy
well monkey see monkey do is more like it......but at least your not ignoring me. :rolleyes:

Ozzy, you are well aware that you are totally un-ignorable! {chuckling}

[Ozzy]

just trying to generate some action on the board and earn my gold. ;)

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by Ozzy
just trying to generate some action on the board and earn my gold. ;)

i'm still mulling over doing a review of the Chloescent Love Bug.

[ValerieXXX]

Guy, Thank you for the kind offer and wonderful words!!! Don't let these gentlemen bring you down, I for one appreciate being treated like a real person. There are some who defended me touth and nail and I am glad to say we all worked it out. Welcome to the forum!!!!! We need more like you!
Sorry I have not been writing the past couple of days, but I am getting ready to leave for Seattle tomorrow. Going to bed early!! Now about the silver, or should I just go for the gold?
Oh in case of spelling errors, I just had my new set of claws put on yesterday, so once again I will be known as Val, Damn those F*&#cking Nails Val!!!!!!....lol.....

[guy catelli]

"Guy, Thank you for the kind offer and wonderful words!!!"

{bowing deeply} the honor is mine, Val. i've always admired the classy way in which you go out and break up a 'cat fight' on the board (much as i enjoy the spectacle of catfights, to be honest about it ;-)

"Don't let these gentlemen ... "

under the circumstances, it is most generous and ladylike of you to refer to them as such ;-)

" ...bring you down,"

{chuckling} that isn't possible. Romantics have an insuperable advantage over jocks. ultimately, the body must eventually disappoint. whereas, the spirit of Romaticism is inexhautible.

"I for one appreciate being treated like a real person."

as a life-long champion of political and economic liberty, i have closely studied the theory and practice of tyranny. tyranny's most trenchant criticism of the free market is that it amounts to "wage slavery". the worker is paid to be the employer's 'beast of burden' for a specified period of time. as long as the employer is "nice" to the 'beast of burden', it doesn't matter that another human being has been reduced to being an object of the employer's economic utitlity.

how you get from there to the "real GFE" many of them keep seeking is an example of just how totally confused they are. like, you're supposed to pretend that you ***want*** your new "boyfriend" to treat you like a fuck-me-doll he just brought home from a sex shop?

whatever. the bottom line, Val, is that legalization is the only way that escorts will ever be accorded their right to be human beings first and sex objects second.

now that i've made all the 'objectivists' hate my guts more than ever ;-), please allow me to review the 'flipside' of the album. Romanticism is not necessarily about candlelight and the Montovani Strings. indeed, in the writing trade, the slang expression for "romance novels" is "bodice-rippers". in other words, when the commander-in-chief is getting ready to shove his 'cigar' into your mouth on the third occasion, and you look up into his eyes and say, "don't you even want to know my name?", it still counts as 'romantic'. whereas, when you open the door and see someone like guy catelli standing there, the natural reaction is to think to yourself, "oh-my-god, it's going to take me at least 10 minutes to work myself up to this!"

on the other hand, based upon your writings and your pictures, it wouldn't take me 10 seconds to want to 'get physical' with you. then after, say, 50 minutes of hot java, i might be in the mood for 10 minutes of 'pillow talk', like, "uh, what did you say your name was?" just kidding, Val, just kidding!











[Edited by guy catelli on 01-22-2001 at 01:27 AM]

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by Ozzy
if you're going to be intimate with someone, no matter what the situation is (paid for intimacy) there *HAS* to be some form of connection if you want something out of it more that just getting off....

i will never understand the combative view of some people who think they can't look at working girls as they would a girlfriend or even just a friend....

.... it's funny but everyone wants a "GFE" but then they are not willing to treat or view a girl as a GF, or in some cases (and i'm not pointing any fingers at anyone here)barely treat them as a person. hows that old saying go...."you catch more flies with honey" ?

{word count: 587; average reading time: 1-1/2 minutes}

thanks, Ozzy. there is a mountain of wisdom in every crown of every letter of every word you have written.

where we differ is that, beneath the gruff 'joc(k)ularity', you are a gentleman; whereas i am not. a gentleman never 'points a finger at anybody'. i do.

i have spent much of my life pondering why the 20th century began with such great optimism that science, education, and democracy would solve every social problem, and yet wound up being the most hellish century in human history.

in brief, none of these horrors would have occurred if management, in general, had been able to get past their mental block that "i'm paying them!" justified treating other human beings like machines (no matter how well the 'machine' was cared for) whose humanity was irrelevant once they accepted the paycheck.

there's a famous phrase: "the banality of evil." i won't go into the details of how the phrase arose. but, the point of the phrase is that contrary to Hollywood depictions of Hannibal Lecter's and Nosferatu's, most of the world's evil is neither sensational nor glamorous.

just the opposite. most of the evil that's done in the 'first world' is done by boring and banal men and women in business suits moving a stack of papers from the 'in box' to the 'outbox' on their desk in an office or cubicle.

today, it is fashionable among those who pretend to be thinking to say that 'good' and 'evil' are merely a matter of each person's opinion, none of which has any claim to superiority over any other.

this is simply not true. moral philosophers, secular and religious, have been in virtually unanimous agreement for the past 4000 years that 'good' is treating others they way you would wish to be treated in *their* position. 'evil' is the opposite.

since almost everyone agrees with this; and since almost no one wants to be thought of by others (much less think of himself) as being 'evil', what's the problem?

the problem is with the qualifying phrase "in *their* position". since coming to asp boards, i have been astonished to find so many people with intelligence, education, and successful professional careers who utterly lack the moral imagination to see the difference between hiring a lawyer or a cab driver, and hiring someone who is offering to allow herself to be used in ways that, absent her permission, would be considered a major felony.

so, it's not that mr. p or wsb are evil in any Hollywood way that is glamorously violent or interestingly sinister. (by contrast, 'SS' has adopted a signature synonymous with self-consciously 'stylish' evil.) what makes them evil is instead their very boring and unglamorous thickheadedness in refusing to understand that a woman spreading her legs for a man she met 10 minutes ago is a lot more physically, emotionally, socially, and legally, 'vulnerable', in every sense of the term, than Joe the Bartender.

they don't hit women, verbally abuse them, or condone anyone who does. but, they steadfastly insist that once she accepts up-front payment, her inner feelings don't matter, as long as they are "politely" ignoring her inner feelings. how is this "standard of care" any different from the humane treatment of a beast of burden? it isn't.

so, yeah, *i'm* pointing a finger. the 20th century would have turned out entirely differently had management treated labor as human beings instead of objects of economic utility.

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

As soon as the Dems listen to Geo W and Alan G and pass along some of that US treasury surplus, I'm gonna get me a little bit of that Val gal......

[guy catelli]

i hereby promise that i will spend every penny of any tax cut on escorts!

[Rufus Moses]

Unless you are in the upper crust the tax cut Dubya has planned for you might pay for one session at Julies.

Of course if you *are* in the upper crust you can privatize the next Chloe and then some with *your* tax cut.

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

From my calculations off Geo W's website during the campaign, I'm looking at a 5 figure tax cut.

I'll all for it actually

[justme]

To say that Greenspan favors a tax cut would be a serious stretching of the truth.

To spend any tax break on the hobby gives a whole 'nother meaning to the term, 'stimulating the economy'

[frog]

re: tax cuts, it's tough for a guy making 25g a year to have a bigger tax cut than a guy making 5 mill.

[Ozzy]

i make my own tax cuts.........


i cut out paying them(taxes).

[Rufus Moses]

Frog...thats where you are wrong...its just a question of votes not math...

[frog]

rufus, politics is hardly an appropriate subject on this board, so I won't touch that but mathematically, where am I wrong?

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by frog
rufus, politics is hardly an appropriate subject on this board, so I won't touch that but mathematically, where am I wrong?

there could be a 100% tax cut for those families of 4 earning less than, say, $25,000 -- and a 0% tax cut for the rich.

ergo, the low income families would have a bigger tax cut than the rich.

[frog]

thanks gc for that. I'll vote for you. Would a 1% tax cut for the $25,000 family and zero % cut for the rich guy work too?

[guy catelli]

thanks gc for that. I'll vote for you.

thanks, frog. every vote counts in my quest for the gold.

Would a 1% tax cut for the $25,000 family and zero % cut for the rich guy work too?

definitely, frog. but, it would 'work' better for, say, Attillary than for Bourgie II.

[Edited by guy catelli on 01-27-2001 at 12:13 PM]