GREED- is this a good or bad thing!

[Carl M]

When it comes to your job if you are commission driven working for a company, then greed can be good. If you are a provider if greed gets in the way this can ruin your integrity. What does everyone think!

[Slinky Bender]

It depends on how you measure "success". Even for commissioned sales peple, the $ they rake in may not be the indicator of how "good" they are. I have know MANY commissioned sales people who made good $, but got terrible client reviews, did little repeat business, burnt out quickly, and went on to a new line, only to do the same thing all over again.

I don't know any business where, if greed is your only motivator, you get high grades from your customers. In service businesses, the biggest key to repreat business is customer satisfaction. If you're in it for the long run, you have to be operatiing under some paradigm that gets the customer what they need ( in one way or another ).

OTOH, someone who trips over themselves to provide service above all else will shortchange themselves/their company. In this business the example would be the indy who is so affraid of being labelled a "clock watcher" that she gives 4 hour appointments and only asks for the 1 hour rate. Her customers will give her high marks for service, but she won't make the $ she should, and will attract, in general, a crowd of less than ideal clients.

One of the biggest disadvantages of being an independant is that it's very hard to "run your business like a business" and also get high marks for service. It is MUCH easier for a lady to focus on service, while someone else focuses on the business end. I would bet that if you were looking solely at the $ ( i.e. greed ), you would find that women who worked for agencies ( at the same "level", etc - whatever that means ), agency women make more than independants. To me, that's the largest single indicator that independants are not greedy. Either that or they are deluding themselves about the $. Of course, this isn't true for all independants. There are some which for on reason or another ( age, body type, etc. ) would not be hired by agencies even though they might be "good providers" ( what an ironic phraseology ! ), at least not at the $ level which they "exist" as independants. Generally, I would think, this includes ladies who offer a very high ;eve; of service, which would be hard for an agency to "sell", as different from their other "workers".

Anyway, as a result I think that the reasons for independants to be independant, should be other than "greed".

[LIDAWN]

are you trying to tell us something...?
what is your thought on this area..?
product demand or other...
i know guy will have something to say about it.. love his lengthy info mercials..
BUt what are you really asking here..? i love to have the inside scoop of your thoughts as always sugar!!!!!
hugzz
xxoo
Dawn

[Carl M]

What Im driving at is there have been a few times- where I have been shortchanged by a provider( the providers prime motivation is to get that money from you and even if corners are cut, the hell with you)- like all of us. At that point in time the thought of retiring enters my mind, because I feel is this all worth it, why waste money- its like throwing it in the toilet bowl. Granted this happens rarely, but when it does Greed is a horrible thing!!

[justme]

It's been my experience that it is very difficult to run a business and that most people are not fit to do it (our market is exclusively entrepeneurs).

[fletch]

Greed is good.

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by LIDAWN
...i know guy will have something to say about it ... love his lengthy info mercials...

hugzz
xxoo
Dawn

that's because you are a woman of cultivation, charm, and discernment, my Cajun Queen ...

here is my response:

if the guy is a typical jag member, or like one, then EMPTY HIS WALLET! ;)

if on the other hand he is a romantically inclined writer/photographer, or the like, then use the proceeds derived from category 1 to provide category 2 with a deep discount.

it's simple ;)

[Carl M]

Originally posted by fletch
Greed is good.

You work on Wall Street bro!

[Phantom]

UP YOURS ASSHOLE!!

[/B][/QUOTE]

if the guy is a typical jag member, or like one, then EMPTY HIS WALLET! ;)

if on the other hand he is a romantically inclined writer/photographer, or the like, then use the proceeds derived from category 1 to provide category 2 with a deep discount.

it's simple ;)

[/B][/QUOTE]


I was asked to refrain from baiting you, but your answer is pure fucking bullshit!!

You're here for the same fucking reason the rest of us guys are here for to get laid. Yet you act like some pompous egotistical asshole looking down your nose at the rest of us as if we are some foul substance that you desire to scrape off the bottom of your shoe

I assume that you put yourself in that second category, of the romantically inclined writer/photographer, as if you are somehow better then the rest of us and only because of that you should be charged less. FUCK YOU!!.

[guy catelli]

i take it this is your 'dry' sense of humor, again.

[Slinky Bender]

If people here want to test my patience, I guess there's not much that I can do to stop them. However, those who know me will tell you that I usually stand for stuff up to a point, and then react....in the extreme. It's usually not to pleasant when that happens.

[jmcurry]

It is difficult to get in between Phantom and GC here, {especially because I am not a provider :)} because I have communicated privately with both, and because I find each of them insightful and refreshing in many ways. So, my response may be too tepid for either. Nonetheless, I believe there is room for further conversation.

Phantom, I hope that GC is pulling your chain. If he is not, then your indignation is not only appropriate, but rather mild. Although his language is inflated with, perhaps, too many philosophical allusions, mine is as well. I believe that he genuinely offers substance to the hobby and that his posts must be read through a lense of sarcasm and deconstruction. Maybe I am deluding myself, and I am willing to consider any criticism to the contrary.

GC, Phantom has been through a great deal. I have as well, recently, along similar lines. Playing a role can wear on one's nerves, even if you are doing it in good fun. Some of us have actually become infatuated, or even more attached, to a "provider." That affects all aspects of our nexus to the hobby.

We should be able to joke and comment about expense, GFE status, incall v. outcall, and independent v agency, but we need to have some kind of common bond, where we do not unduly demean each other.

I have recently refrained from putting my own personal feelings and relationships on this, or any other, board. The last time I did, someone attacked my mother. Are we as evil as the religious right thinks we are?

Rather than attack each other, maybe we should unite against those who vilify us.

I am ready for rebuttals, my all time GFE postponed a get together once again.

[Assman]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Carl M
[B]What Im driving at is there have been a few times- where I have been shortchanged by a provider



The reason you have been shortchanged is because you try to make deals with various providers. You promise providers good reviews for a discount in their fees. In return, they may shortchange you because you did not pay the full fee. Or, maybe they just did not enjoy being with you. And when are you going to stop using that childish term "BRO?"

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by jmcurry
....GC, ...............
I am ready for rebuttals, ...

jmcurry,

i would be glad to rebut you now, but for the fact that i just retrieved from the lab the cd of some photographs i shot of a well known cybercourtesan this past weekend.

and then, as i was opening up the files in photoshop to do some postproduction work on them, i received an email from her requesting that i review some material she has recently written.

in some not insignificant sense, her work is a continuation of Plato's Symposium. as an idealist, i am, perforce, a Platonist to some degree. i therefore must attend to this happy task she has set for me without delay. but, i will return to your challenge anon.

guy

[K.S.]

GC, why do you do this?

If you're that fucking brilliant, then I think you ought to find a more suitable message board to do your little dance on.

One of the reasons, I now realize, I stayed at the Golden Gypsy for so many years was that I got to be "the smart one." Sure, I'm a clever little monkey - but: to paraphrase Malcome X -

Q) Do you know what they call a prostitute with a BA in art history?

A) A whore!

Why on EARTH does it matter if a provider has an interest or an opinion on Plato? Does that make her a better lay? Sure, it might be nice to pass the time with someone whose interests go beyond Jerry Springer, but you have GOT to STOP being infatuated with these silly superficial things!

Listen, you have a FETISH. I mean, it would turn YOU on to find a girl with a European accent and an acquaintance with Foucault - who also, very conveniently, would suck your dick for money. How is that any more elevated and noble than having a fetish for chicks with big feet? It's OK to be attracted to the women you like, but you have to understand that you are not going to be winning any arguments by claiming that you're a better trick than the other guys.

I used to have customers who thought I was cute because I was so precocious and clever. I didn't necessarily respect or like them any more than the blue-collar guys who liked me just because I was friendly and gave good head.

Disclaimer: You're a nice fellow, and you've never done anything to hurt me. I'm sure you also recognize that I have no real stake here - I am not going to make more or less money based on the persona I portray. I just feel ridiculously compelled to argue with you because you approach everything from a completely different angle than I approach life, myself.

[Edited by K.S. on 02-26-2001 at 10:14 PM]

[frog]

K.S. !!!

[frog]

you go girl!

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by K.S.:
GC,
........Listen, you have a FETISH. I mean, it would turn YOU on to find a girl with a European accent and an acquaintance with Foucault ....

i have; and, it does.

- who also, very conveniently, would suck your dick for money.

if you must know, it's the way she licks my nuts that i find most exciting.

How is that any more elevated and noble than having a fetish for chicks with big feet?

why can't i have both? her shoe size is 10.

...........You're a nice fellow,

{nods}

...and you've never done anything to hurt me.

{nods again}

I'm sure you also recognize that I have no real stake here - I am not going to make more or less money based on the persona I portray.

{nodding still}

I just feel ridiculously compelled to argue with you because you approach everything from a completely different angle than I approach life, myself.

i see.

[Carl M]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Assman
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Carl M
[B]What Im driving at is there have been a few times- where I have been shortchanged by a provider



The reason you have been shortchanged is because you try to make deals with various providers. You promise providers good reviews for a discount in their fees. In return, they may shortchange you because you did not pay the full fee. Or, maybe they just did not enjoy being with you. And when are you going to stop using that childish term "BRO?"

Remember where we are, this is UG not ***!

[Assman]

Originally posted by Carl M

Remember where we are, this is UG not ***!

Are you making rules now? Well, at least you did not disagree with my post.

[Carl M]

Originally posted by Assman
Originally posted by Carl M

Remember where we are, this is UG not ***!

Are you making rules now? Well, at least you did not disagree with my post.

NO Comment!!

[guy catelli]

jmcurry,

by way of backround, the last time i posted a message to you, in an attempt to offer you some solace, you practically bit my head off: http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2880#post2880

yet, when a stranger on *** made a comment to you that is well within the ambit of the "fighting words doctrine", you were as calm as a cucumber: http://209.164.24.17/newyork/posts/21364.html

it's all a little 'ierd' to me.

....Phantom, I hope that GC is pulling your chain. If he is not, then your indignation is not only appropriate, but rather mild.

that statement would not have been an appropriate to direct at Hitler or Stalin, much less a client kidding around with an escort. that's my opinion. but to say it was 'relatively mild', in any context, is not a matter of opinion. it is plainly false.

....GC, Phantom has been through a great deal. I have as well, recently, along similar lines. Playing a role can wear on one's nerves, even if you are doing it in good fun. Some of us have actually become infatuated, or even more attached, to a "provider." That affects all aspects of our nexus to the hobby.

i was already aware that you and Phantom think that your romantic disappointments are a subject of general interest for the board -- an interest i don't share. but, frankly, the above statement suggests a level of self-absorption i did not suspect. do you think that puts either of you in some special category that the rest of aren't also in (without using it as an excuse for having a public tantrum)?

....I have recently refrained from putting my own personal feelings and relationships on this, or any other, board. The last time I did, someone attacked my mother.

i alone called that poster on his remark to you (see above). and, i didn't make excuses for him. btw, that you no longer post about personal matters (which you have done in the past with great eloquence and sensitivity) confirms the 'de facto' censorship i have complained of here and elsewhere. in my own case, i haven't posted my personal feelings about escorts (for the most part) since i posted my first set of reviews to jag more than a year-and-a-half ago, for reasons not too dissimilar from yours. likewise, all but the newest escorts (who aren't yet fed up with 'taking crap' from boors) have been similarly censored.

Are we as evil as the religious right thinks we are?

Rather than attack each other, maybe we should unite against those who vilify us.

clients vying for the attention of escorts, imo, is not the problem jag members find it to be. i agree that what we do here is 'grist' for the religious right's 'mill', on the issue of internet censorship. but, in terms of keeping our eye on the (real) prize -- legalization -- it's the political left that must be won over.

by their very nature, the 'religious right' can never be 'neutral' on this matter, even if every client/escort interaction from now to the end of time were perfectly wonderful. however, the political left can be neutralized, at least to the degree we can show that this thing of ours is not "inherently degrading to all women", as they insist it is.

you have been unfailingly (much more so than i) exemplary in this matter. but, there are those fools who insist on publically insulting the whole class of escorts in any way their baser instincts move them to, as long as the dictionary allows wiggle room to believe that there exists some noninsulting way of using the same vocabulary (at least that seems to be their latest rhetorical gambit). such behavior is of great benefit to our many enemies on both the left and the right. likewise, in effect censoring postings from clients like yourself, and escorts who won't put up with the insults, deprives us, by that portion, of an "artistic or redeeming social value" defense that the left would otherwise be only too eager to embrace (unlike the religious right).

guy


[Edited by guy catelli on 02-28-2001 at 01:31 PM]

[Phantom]

:confused: :(

GOD do I have a fucking headache. :rolleyes:

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by Phantom
:confused: :(

GOD do I have a fucking headache. :rolleyes:

then we do you read my posts? i don't read the posts of people whose posts i don't enjoy or find informative.

[Phantom]

I guess for the same reason people slow down and rubberneck at accidents that they pass while driving, to see a bloody mess.

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by Phantom
I guess for the same reason people slow down and rubberneck at accidents that they pass while driving, to see a bloody mess.

well, that does not explain the wholly inappropriate rage above, nor the "headache", nor the heaping of one insult after another -- to no point or issue -- just flaming for the sake of flaming.

i've all but ignored you since our second exchange. yet, you continue with one attack after another. i think it says a lot about your maturity level.

[SkellyChamp]

I actually thought it was a right witty retort.

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by SkellyChamp
I actually thought it was a right witty retort.

it was kinda "witty" the first time. but, it's kinda 'witless' the second time.

btw, i thought you were going to go forth and sin no more. have you been backsliding?

[SkellyChamp]

But I AM a sinner.
And besides I also like to rubberneck
Besides, I need the comic relief

[jmcurry]

Guy: Your rebuttal is, as I expected, erudite and complete. What strikes me at first glance is, do the normal contributers to the board really care to read this? Isn't your point by point critique of my post rather tiresome to most hobbyists?

You suggested that the infatuation that Phantom and I have experienced for individual providers is not a subject that you care to read about on UG. I take that criticism to heart, and I apologize for sharing my feelings about the one provider, whom, in my long involvement in "this thing of ours," captivated my heart. That is over, and I fully realize that I played out my own feelings for her on UG. That will not happen again, at least if I can be rational. I apologize to all of you who have endured my emotive posts.

But, I also want to thank everyone for making me understand that, at bottom, this entire enterprise can be boiled down to "money for sex." Somehow, I forgot that, at least in this case. I doubt that I will ever again be lured into believing that I can have a "relationship" with a provider, apart from the sexual one.

Regarding legalizing the hobby, we seem to be in agreement. What troubles me is, in our postmodern world, we, as hobbyists, face an overwhelming opposition. I wish I could concur that the left would support us, but, Bill aside, I see little evidence to make me optimistic.

Finally, I thank you for your kind words about my perception and defense of providers. They are, obviously, the sine qua non of the hobby. I take their side because I have rarely been disappointed by a woman in this business and because I recognize how formidable the obstacles to their success can be.

Sorry if I "bit your head off" earlier. Invective and discursive polemics are a natural part of my writing and thinking. It was not warranted, but I was too immersed in my "relationship" to be objective. Further, I was a "cucumber" regarding our errant poster on ***, because I seldom correspond with primates. If my mother was not in intensive care as I write, perhaps I could have been more crass. But, that particular idiot's invective paled in comparison to the real life situation I continue to confront. I ignored him, explaining his existence as proof that Freud's Civilization and Its Discontents had some validity.

I doubt this answers all your concerns. If it doesn't, let's get together at a bar to talk in more depth.. I do not want to put the rest of the hobby to sleep.