I need me some relationship advice, please

[K.S.]

Although I don't know WHY I think you people would know anything.

I guess it's just because I figure you guys aren't naive.

I have lots of questions to ask, and I'll keep them to this thread as they come up.

First is: I think my beau knows I was a provider. I hinted at it a bunch when we started dating, and I was on the verge of telling him more than he wanted to hear because he outright said "If you've had sex for money please don't tell me."

Well, it was like a weight off my shoulders. I've never felt like talking about it since. In fact, I actually feel that in FUTURE relationships I won't need to talk about it. If this relationship doesn't work out, it will at the very least serve as a palate-cleansing sorbet between my former life and my present one.

My beau and I now have a little joke where I say "You are so huge/hard/whatever compared to other guys. Well, compared to the two other guys I've been with." The joke is that I've only been with two other guys and the first was so small I barely felt it and the second was so quick I blinked and missed it.

I wonder, though, if he's managed to actually forget the whole thing. For a brilliant genius, he has an incredible ability to forget all kinds of shit. I wonder if he really doesn't care, or if he's just repressed the memory.

I DID tell him once that I used to work at a peep show, and he didn't really seem to want to talk about it much. Like, he didn't look upset, but he wasn't curious ("REALLY?! Wow! What was THAT like?!") the way most people are. That was a while ago. He MAY think that THAT was the big thing I was going to tell him. "OK, she wasn't a hooker. Just a dancer. And that was a long time ago."

So, what are my moral obligations should the "M" word ever come up? (Thanks, PJ O'Rourke for reminding me to ask this in your email today!) On one hand, he DID specifically say "Don't tell me" on the other, I feel I need to be sure he's prepared in case somebody decides to play a nasty trick on him. (Such people exist - some sweetheart posted my personal web page to *** about a year ago.)

So, any thoughts?

If you've nothing to say on that subject, can I ask for your definitions and opinions of a "high maintenance" woman?

Thanks!

[OCharley]

Caution - If you have discussed the matter, and he specificaly stated that he did NOT want to know, why would you feel you have to tell him? For your own feelings of honesty, or some sense of completeness? Forget it. I am all about honesty, but I can choose to listen or not.

Your beau must have some pretty good radar to be able to say not to tell him if you had sex for money, before you say it. He knows. No one would forget that. No guy would ever forget it. It is probably like the 600 pound gorilla that sits there, in his head, but he will not mention it for fear that in doing so, it becomes real. Then it has to be dealt with.

Right now, pre-legal committment, its your headache, your history. He can take a walk if he wants. He may be playing ostrich, but my guess is he knows full well about your "secret" but wants to be spared the details.

Give him time. Give it time. And in time, it will work itself out.

A relationship is a long journey. Take each journey one step at a time.

And let him walk at his own pace.....

(sorry if this got a bit smarmy at the end)
D

[Phantom]

KS,

If he truly loves you, your past is your past. I strongly suspect that he already knows. If he is as wonderful as you make him out to be, don't worry about it.

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

He asked you to not tell him about it, so let it be.

Everybody has a past. I once ruined a good relationship by telling her everything...I thought it was a sensitive thing to do. Most of the stuff she was ok with, but when I told her that I had sex with hookers, she didn't react...but I heard it all come back later during heated arguments.

God forgives and loves us despite out past...I'm not sure anybody else is that giving.

High maintenance = moody, needy, expensive tastes. I like when a woman likes to share about her feelings, but it becomes high maintenance when she expects you to read her mind and react to shit you can't understand or project from reading her mind.

[OCharley]

A "high maintenence woman" is one who you must watch what you say, how you say it, and then, she will take you to task, no matter what.

Anon -

[Slinky Bender]

Do you ask him: "Do these pants make me look fat ?"

Do you ask him: "You're not going to wear that shirt, are you ?"

Do you say to him:"If you loved me, you wouldn't ........"?

Do you tell him which of his friends you don't like and he shouldn't hang out with anymore ?

Do you make him ask you a question or make a statement four times, because you don't even respond, and when the last time he raises his voice say "Don't yell at me"?

Do you answer the question "When are we going to leave the house?" with "I think we need to stop at the store" ?

If he asks you the same question 4 times, how many different answers does he get ?

Do arguments start at 2AM on "work nites" and when he says he has to get up in 4 hours, do you refuse to let it go till the next day?

Do you interrupt TV/movies to ask questions in the middle, when the two of you have been watching the same thing ?

Is your idea of "fair" splitting things he needs 50/50 and things you need 75/25 "because you need more of it" ( especially closet space ) ?

When arguing, do you stick to the topic, or do you also yell at him for "that time he left you standing on the corner at 6AM" even when you are arguing about putting the top back on the toothpaste?

Do all your points in an argument get punctuated by "well, my friends think I'm right " ?

Do you ask him "why aren't you more like X?", especially if X is your ex or your father ? or your friends husband ?

Do you say to him "we never go anyplace nice anymore"? or, when he asks you exactly where you do want to go, simply say "someplace nice" and then say "no" to everyplace he suggests ( helps if you scruncth up you face while doing it ) ?

Answer those questions, and you'll get some idea of what "high maintenance" is.

[jmcurry]

If he doesn't want information, don't provide it. He may suspect, which is fine. (All the more alluring) If you do not confirm past activities, they can live as fantasy, unharmed and uninfluenced by reality. Once you dredge them up to the surface, they take on a life of their own. And that can cause both of you unmitigated pain. Your past is your past. It doesn't seem worthwhile or productive to reveal it.

[guy catelli]

sounds like an accurate description of 'real GFE' to me.

[littleguy]

"Although I don't know WHY I think you people would know anything."

"I guess it's just because I figure you guys aren't naive."


OUCH ! Obviously we are pond scum who have no chance of a real relationship because we are members here ? So you ask a question that by necessity requires sensitivity and understanding ?

Naivete (GC, did I spell that right ?) ? I'm not the graduate of all those schools that you've attended but doesn't 'not being naive' have to do more with experiences and stories we've been exposed to rather than whether or not we have some legitimate understanding and the sensitivity to relay advice to you about what you may be feeling and what he may or may not want to know ?

Once again, you must know what I mean, although I'm sure I stated it badly, but I don't have the time to re-write.

Anyway, K.S., HE KNOWS. You are very bright. You've called him many wonderful things. I believe he's probably your intellectual equal or at least very close. You say you've hinted, a "bunch" of times. When you "were about to tell him" he said directly "If you've had sex for money please don't tell me."

My advice for what it's worth (and remember you get what you pay for) is do NOT tell him. At least not now. If you guys get to the point of seriously considering marriage I feel you owe it to him at THAT TIME to at least "hint" at it some more and see how he feels then. OTOH, if you feel that you don't want to get in any deeper without knowing whether or not it could possibly go all the way, you owe it to YOURSELF to either probe enough now or even outright TELL HIM now so you will not be wasting your time should he feel he could never take that step with you. You would then, of course, need to walk away and cut your losses.

High Maintenance - Do YOU start 80% of more of the conversations (grin).

BTW, K.S. the first paragraph was tongue-in-cheek. I know (?) you were not trying to insult us. At least I think I know. Is that possible ? Oh well, you know what I mean, don't you ?

[jester]

slinkybender,

So you've met my wife?



jester

[Geezy Muldoon]

past be the past.

[Edited by Judge Crater on 07-25-2001 at 05:44 PM]

[justme]

The dual to that problem is one that I've been trying to theoretically answer for about nine months now. The best I can come up with in your case is that (as has been mentioned several times) his outright request for ignorance is an indication that he almost definitely knows and is probably using this as a mental device to avoid dealing with the issue. That's not to say, however, that one day he won't change his mind about what he wants to know. If that happens in the context of a more serious relationship than what you've got then you're probably in for a pretty large ethical dilemma.

But none of this matters... tell him now, tell him later, he deals with it now, he doesn't, he changes his mind, whatever... He's going to react however he does and there's not a whole lot you can do to control this. The real problem is that you (like all of us) have particpated in a highly socially stigmatized activity, and because of that you run the risk of future social stigmatization. It's a risk that we've all decided we should take, but really none of us should ask surprised when we are actually in a situation to reap what we sew.

Ethics and right or wrong have very little bearing on how we emotionally cope with various issues. They're just intellectual diversions, no?

[DannyNJ]

KS - I have a very simple solution to the problem: dump him and let ME be your new boyfriend!! I'm completely aware of your past and have no problem with it.

See?? Every dilemma can be solved with a short, simple answer! : )

[jester]

justme, that last paragraph was right on the money.


KS,

If he doesn't know now, he WILL find out, someday. If he does know now, he WILL have to deal with it, someday. I don't know at what point you guys are at with your relationship, but the discussion will come if you continue.

Do you have any friends in common that know about your past? Does your family know? Do you have friends that will be meeting him that know? What happens if you meet one of his friends or relatives who turns out to have been a client?

Any one of these scenarios practically guarentees that the conversation will happen some day.

The only advice I will offer is that you should think long and hard about your relationship and what it means to you. You are the only one who can decide if you should tell him yourself, or hope that he never finds out.


I wish you well.


Jester

[Rust]

KS-

I'd tell him now. If you wait, and things get serious and then you spring it on him, it would probably destroy him, since you weren't honest from the start. By telling him now, you'll basically be giving him the ultimate test. If he walks, you know he wasn't a guy that was with you because of who you are now. Be prepared to discuss it though, such as past circumstances which put you into the situation to begin with. While it may seem like a secret you'll want to keep forever, eventually it may be like a Tell Tale Heart, which will bother you forever. If you get it out of the way early, your future life will probably be much more enjoyable.

Rust

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by littleguy
GC, ... I'm not the graduate of all those schools that you've attended ....

but, you are far more intelligent than i (not a difficult accomplishment, btw).

intelligence is the apitude for adapting to, and surviving in, a changing environment. the traits most closely associated with this aptitude are an ability to get along well with a wide range of people and a related characteristic that i call 'EQ', ie, emotional quotient. that is, the ability to manipulate emotions (one's own and those of others) to one's own advantage.

i have no doubt that you are vastly more intelligent than i in these all-important aptitudes.

however, there are certain areas, in this highly complex contemporary world, the mastery of which all but demand both formal training and professional experience. of course, everyone has a right to offer other people (free) advice in these areas. but, i think that responsible people have a corresponding obligation to restrain the urge to employ their superior popularity and emotional skills to influence others regarding matters they admit to having no knowledge of.

[justme]

You know Rust, six months ago I would have agreed with you without hesitation. Today, hesitation. I mean, you don't unload all the horrible things you've ever done in your life to someone on the first date, right? On the other hand it's probably not a great idea to wait till your deathbed. Clearly there's a time for every relevation. I think KS (being the obviously smart woman that she is) is kinda grasping in this thread for an elegant solution to a problem that can only be solved by a brute force play it by ear and hope for the best mentality.

I mean, at what point in a relationship do we tell the beautiful woman in front of us that from time to time we have gone out and paid for sex? It's obviously an answer best answered by the person in the situation as there are millions of tiny influences on the decision that no outsider could weigh. Of course that's not to say that the person best suited to make the decision is at all in a good position to make the decision.

My God, why did I ever start doing this?

[Edited by justme on 02-23-2001 at 10:58 PM]

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by justme
... Today, hesitation. I mean, you don't unload all the horrible things you've ever done in your life to someone on the first date, right?...

right!!! having read this, i now realize that i may have been overly pessimistic about your future prospects for eventual enlightenment about this thing of ours.

My God, why did I ever start doing this?


today i was thinking a bit about the fact that answering this question is your stated purpose for reading and posting on asp-boards. the question just occurred to me now: is it possible that you insist on so narrowly framing this thing of ours to avoid 'blurring' what your question requires remain sharply in focus?

just wondering out loud.

[justme]

Hmm, I'd be more proned to say that in my analysis of the motivation and effects of the hobby I've come to realise that certain strategies and emotions are a road to ruin. My non-romantic posts, I think, are based in my desire to not see other people (innies and outies) hurt by this 'thing of ours'.

[OCharley]

K.S. my dear,

Please do not worry yourself about my feeling on this "subject". I do know about your past. Or at least I have some pretty good idea about it. But honestly I do not care. I may care in the future, but then again I may get hit by a truck tomorrow. Today is all we have. I intend on enjoying it.

And as we progress together, along the way, I may alude to your past, please dismiss it. Ignore it. It is just my petty stupid human male jealousy and possessiveness. My pride may get in the way, but my heart will always be in the right place; next to yours.

In the end, I will know all. In the end, as we lay dying in eachothers arms, old and wrinkled and infirmed, I will have known you years and years. And a few moments of your life, in your youth, will not effect me one bit. It will be more of a dream you had, and that I may have heard you recount.

So do not burden me with your burden. I am not interested in hearing about youthful "indescretions" unless of course you need help. Then I am there. But I do not need to know all of the facts and cicumstances of your "college days" and "drinking buddies".

All my love,
Your Sweetheart.

[OCharley]

He told me to say that

[guy catelli]

well, KS, though no longer an escort, you remain the center of our attentions at UG, in part, because the other Divas have fled the stage, for the nonce.

regarding your melodramatic dilemma, i offer for your consideration the 'standard model' of romantic attraction. personally, i take such schema with a grain of salt, as i believe the interaction of one psyche with another, in a sexually charged relationship, is complex to a degree well beyond the comprehension of current academic researchers and clinical practitioners.

but, fwiw, here is the standard model:

the attractees see in the object of their romantic longings an idealized image not only of themselves, but of the internalized 'parent' as well, both in its maternal and paternal manifestations.

the unconscious motivation of the attractees is:

1. to employ the idealized self that has been projected onto the other to complement incompleteness in the self (hence, the folk wisdom that 'opposites attract'); and

2. to employ the idealized 'parent' that has been projected onto the other to heal wounds that have been inflicted by the attractee's real life parents or parent figures.

since no human being can (completely) satisfy either of these needs, much less both, when either or both of the attractees become aware, at some level, of this gap between the ideal and the real, the attractees are both overwhelmed by an enraged sense of 'betrayl'.

everyone knows an example of one of the classic instances of the standard model: the super-conservative, analytical, orderly, and cautious lawyer, accountant, or engineer (to name three examples) and the off-the-wall 'ditz' who fall madly in love with each other.

however, this garden variety romantic coupling lacks great dramatic potential because of the conservative partner's lack of histrionic aptitude.

one of the standard types of romantic relationships that is an invariable source truly great melodrama is that between the 'hero' (whose 'tragic flaw' is that he or she is 'insanely' sexually jealous), and the partner who is a compulsive sexual exhibitionist.

typically, the second has had a 'past', and will have a 'future'. but, because of her mad romantic attraction to the hero, she has become, for the present, profoundly and sincerely monagamous -- in her conscious mind and emotions. yet, unconsciously she is signalling everyone within her reach: ~your call is important to me; i am (temporarily) unable to take your call due to technical difficulties beyond my control. however, please stay on the line; your call will be taken in the order in which it has been received.~

she is not (totally) aware that she is transmitting this 'outgoing message' to every male with the capacity to receive it. however, the hero is insanely jealous of her behavior. even if she were able to completely mask the behavior from him (which she isn't), that still leaves the fact that he is picking up on the sudden 'standing-at-attention' responses from the other males. and, it is preceisely this reaction from the other males (not all of whom could possibly be 'misreading' her) that most infuriates him (not her behavior, per se, contrary to her self-centered view of his motivations). what infuriates him is that this 'virtual cuckolding' undermines his heroic status with the other men, which is the source of his core identity (and, in turn, her attraction to him).

in today's world, the most famous example of this of this type of ill-fated romance is, of course, the tragic relationship of Nicole and OJ. but, since bureaucratic predictability (not conquering new lands) is the primary mode of being in the modern western world, 'endgames' of such violence and finality are relatively rare these days.

however, at least a call or two to 911 is all but guaranteed in even the most ordinary of such relationships. these calls, along with attendant visits to police stations and hospitals, are always welcome additions to any melodrama, by the players and audience alike. friends and family will hang on every word of every new 'revelation', if only to be the center of attention when it's their turn to disseminate the latest 'scoop' further down the information food chain.

btw, lest anyone garner the misimpression that the 'fault' here is in some way 'male-specific' or 'female-specific', let me add that that is not the case. the very same dynamic obtains, often far more explosively, with same-gender romantic relationships, of both types.

jmo, but it beats sitting at home watching soap operas, or sitting in a cubicle shifting bits and bytes around. in other words, my advice is: enjoy the ride.

i hope this helps,

guy

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by justme
Hmm, I'd be more proned to say that in my analysis of the motivation and effects of the hobby I've come to realise that certain strategies and emotions are a road to ruin. My non-romantic posts, I think, are based in my desire to not see other people (innies and outies) hurt by this 'thing of ours'.

justme, that is a stunning 'admission against interest', relative to the issue of 'good faith' in posting to asp-boards. you might want to consider modifying or 'clarifying' your post above.

you might also consider that even when 'advice' is explicitly requested regarding matters that ultimately hinge on core life philosophy, it is far more likely to be a request for attention, rather than evidence of the questioner's genuine willingness to reconsider the fundamentality to the questioner of "certain strategies and emotions". this being the case, it is hardly likely that there would be significant benefit for those who are not asking for advice.

however, thwarting the goals of those with concerns other than your own certainly succeeds in preventing concerns other than your own from getting the attention your own concern (ie, why do you do 'this') is not getting.

i suppose that is 'fairness' of a sort.


[Edited by guy catelli on 02-24-2001 at 12:20 PM]

[HornDogBuddah]

KS - he DID say "Don't tell me." So it would be wring to force it on him. However, as a few others have opined here, I think it is important you be prepared to fully disclose whatever particulars you feel are necessary/important in order to relieve yourself of future fear of being accused of being dishonest -- in other words, you should prep what you will tell him according to how much negative emotional impact you are trying to avoid causing. That said, I do NOT think you should be forthcoming with this information unless he directly and specifically asks you for it. In the recent past, during times of serious discussions. or potential serious discussions, the two of you have sidestepped this topic. (Actually, he sidestepped and you did not force him back on track.) Should the opportunity arise again, and you no doubt feel that it will, you should open the door and suggest moving into that new discussion area. If he declines, you should gently close the door and move on. He may suspect what is behind that door, but if he chooses to refrain from going there, you should respect and accept that decision.

I am not in agreement with the suggestions that you should force the issue in order to determine whether his acceptance of your past is a barometer of how much he loves you now and will continue to love you in the future. What would be telling would be his attitude and beliefs about prostitution, exchanging sexual acts with strangers for money, and, possibly, performing specific sexual acts for money.

Re your inquiry about "high maintenance" women. If she is able to see through the eyes of others, is able to laugh at herself (i.e., does not take herself too seriously), and genuinely understands and respects others' rights and the boundaries between those rights and her own expectations, she will never be high maintenance. If she only sees the world from an egoistic perspective, if she doesn't understand or care about others' rights and needs, if she thinks her needs trump everyone else's, then she probably is "high maintenance."

[frog]

high maintenance can mean that she needs lots of presents, but to me, it means that she needs a lot of attention. Like SB (TFH) said -- lots of psychic energy.

[K.S.]

Thank you, everyone, for your help.
I think what I'll do is wait and see what happens, first. At this point, I still feel it is not his business. I think, if we get engaged, I'll bring it up again in a way that will let him talk about it if he wants to, but also let him bypass it if he wants to.

He's really wonderful, but he's kinda chicken-shit about things that might be uncomfortable emotionally. I like that, as it means we have a very drama-free relationship.

We never fight, even though he sometimes gets on my nerves. I'm sure I get on his nerves, but he seems to deal with it.

I am putting a LOT of care into this relationship. It's not just that he's the BEST guy I've ever dated, but that he's the FIRST guy I've seriously dated since I've become a "square." (He's probably the second-best guy I've ever dated.) Of course, that's not the only thing that matters a lot to me - I really am trying to do everything differently in this relationship. I am trying to get past the ideas of infatuation and romantic love.

Obviously, I love him. I think he's a gorgeous, handsome genius and I love to be sweet to him and do all I can to make him feel good when he's stressed and such. On the other hand, I sometimes feel that I do NOT love him - like when he is tired a moody after a particularly demanding week and I'm thinking "Oh, great, I'm rubbing your feet and you haven't even ASKED how my day went!" (Incidently, I just got a promotion and a 10% raise at my job at my annual review! Yippie!)

I think you can't really love somebody until the infatuation wears off.

I also think that I want to marry this guy.


Oh, thanks for the opinions on high maintenance women. I believe that while guys SAY they don't like them, they do tend to fall all over themselves when around one. It's like girls SAYING that they don't like jerks, but then falling for a jerk.

I try to not be high maintenance.

[frog]

oh KS, I wouldn't want to know myself, so think you shouldn't tell him (just my opinion).

KS, it's funny you mention this, but the only girl I'd ever really loved was very high maintenance, but I never minded that at all.

[Edited by frog on 02-24-2001 at 09:45 PM]

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

Originally posted by K.S.

He's really wonderful, but he's kinda chicken-shit about things that might be uncomfortable emotionally. I like that, as it means we have a very drama-free relationship.

We never fight, even though he sometimes gets on my nerves. I'm sure I get on his nerves, but he seems to deal with it.



Guys who stuff feelings and don't allow themselves to experience their emotions are timebombs waiting to happen.

Part of our culture tells us as little boys....don't cry, take it like a man......this nonsense is generating a slew of codependants and alcoholics.

Feelings happen, there's lots of stimulus for emotions and feelings on a routine basis...if he's avoiding them...be wary.

[P.J ORourke]

K.S. I've told you repeatedly, the only thing you need to confess to your lover is that you voted for Clinton twice. If he can ignore this, everything else is trivial

[justme]

Not that I think that this discourse belongs in this thread, but I think you misunderstand my post. My only point is that if someone writes something that I think advocates unhealthy behavior then I tend to reply with an explanation of why I view the behavior to be unhealthy. That's all.

[robnotbob]

KS: My two cents...

You never fight??? Then you don't really know him.

[Geezy Muldoon]

years.

[Edited by Judge Crater on 07-25-2001 at 05:45 PM]

[K.S.]

We have had disagreements, and I've definately gotten on his nerves. I've seen him peeved/pissed at me. We just don't have the kinds of fights where you raise your voice and try to say hurtful things out of anger. I have definately shown anger towards him, but it was never anything where I yelled. I used to be a thrower (with very good aim) and I know that if I did that to him, he'd freak.

Some people are raised in families where the raising of voices is normal. Without even addressing homes that have real problems with abuse and violence, I will say that in many homes, slamming doors, spanking children, whacking siblings upside the head, screaming "I hate you!" when you're sent to your room - is a normal way of dealing with conflict. In other families, nobody screams or calls names, spanking is never employed but a look of disappointment will bring real remorse to a naughty child, etc.

I come from a home where voices were raised and I definately slammed my door and stuff when sent to my room. (On the other hand I NEVER EVER dared call my parents names and if I was caught throwing something at my brother, I was in big trouble.) My boyfriend probably hasn't raised his voice in years. He's ashamed, still, of having punched his sister once when he was a little kid.

He's definately tightly wound in some ways, his job is pretty stressful, but when I say he avoids drama, I just mean that he's pretty mild tempered.

He's got some "issues" because of a divorce when he was a kid, but I don't think he'll snap violently - I think he'd be more likely to just withdraw from me and break up with me. That is very likely how our relationship will end.

[P.J ORourke]

If you have never gotten to the point where you've yelled, thrown things (maybe) or stormed out of the room, you probably haven't invested enough of yourselves in the relationships.

Besides, there is nothing better than make-up sex.

[framl]

Whether he wants to know or not, he needs to know before he takes the marriage vows, and you need him too, so it doesn't blow up in your face. Up until you start talking marriage really seriously, take him at his word. When you start talking marriage seriously, drop hints, and bigger ones if he doesn't pick up on the samller ones. Remind him he told you not to tell him and you took him seriously, but tell him that a lifetime commitment is too much for you to ask of him without his knowing.

What do you do if he all of a sudden wants to know all the details? Ouch, that is hard, but I say set up rules between the two of you about what he wants/needs to know and stick to them.

My first marriage is still working out just fine, but if it weren't, I woudn't hesitate to marry a woman because she had been a provider, so long as I believed she wasn't hiding anything from me. The guy's biggest worry wi whether you will go back to providing later; you need to convince him that life with him is much more important than the income or thrill you could get from providing again.

[SS]

I agree that your past is your past and your business.

Since he said he doesn't want to hear anything, it's obviously best not to comment about it anymore.

When we all meet somebody, it's because we are attracted to them for one reason or another. Yes, if you are infatuated with him, give it time, as hopefully you will get to know the person better and it will wear off.

Then you will be able to tell if it is just an infatuation or if it's real feelings and if you want to share your life with that person.

However, as much as you think you know someone, you don't until you live with them and get used to their quirks. Does he leave the toilet seat up? Does he roll over in bed when he sleeps? Does he change the tv station all the time? Does he do this or that.

As fas as being high maintnenace, to some extent, aren't we all seking validation and approval?

Most important, if your beau helps you to heal your (subconcious level) childhood wounds and makes you feel more complete, and possesses both the good and bad triats of your parents (primary caretakers) then he is probably a good choice for your soulmate for you to spend your life with.

I wish I had the opportunity to meet you.

Sincerely,
SupeSniffer

[boris]

Pretty fascinating thread. KS, I sympathize. It must be an agonizing thing. I think one reason there are a lot of threads about "falling for providers" and vice versa is that a lot of us on both sides firewall our hobby lives from our regular lives. The line crossing threads often seem have a subtext about the possibility of not having to live with that wall between the pay for fantasy and one's everyday emotional life.

I do think the "wall" is the safer and for most saner way to go.

I also think you actually got a lot of good advice here (even if it isn't unanimous). I am left with one lingering question though. You retired, are in a relationship with someone who doesn't overtly know, and you're back here across the wall in a sense to talk about it because you can't quite talk to him (at least not yet).
It just kind of strikes me that you really want to talk about your other past. It strikes me that you, as an individual aren't the G. Gordon Liddy type. Should you as an individual be with someone who doesn't want to talk about it and who left your near confession in a kind of odd purgatory.
The KS character here and on the boards is quite open, generally wants to talk to others openly. It's a lot of what makes you an attractive personality on these boards. It doesn't matter how brilliant or nice the guy is. I just wonder whether it's a fit for KS even if your other persona happens to present very differently?
Five years from now would you want KS to still be on this board talking with us about things the other you can't talk about with your significant other? (sorry if the various persona references are a bit confusing, but I think you can still live a "square" life with edges that are a bit more rounded). Your past as KS seems to be very alive for you and there are signs that it's still important to you. It just doesn't seem like you want to sublimate it.

[TuckernotSucker]

Tell him. Tell him now. He must take you for what you were and what you are now. Dont wait until you are sooo in love with him that it would kill you if he left you.
I know, I have been there. Be honest. It will hurt him and if he loves you his hurt will heal. This is wise advise.
Solomon

[HornDogBuddah]

Sorry, TnS, but I've got to disagree with you. While I think KS is correct to be concerned over where her telling or not telling will lead, there is a very important downside to telling him something that he has explicitly stated that he doesn't want nor need to hear. When you think about it in that light, the pain and hurt that disclosure might cause would be gratuitous because he has already said that he does not want to discuss it. (To me, that in itself is a clue that he DOES know where she is leading him, he acknowledges and discards it, and wants to put it behind them.)

KS wants her relationship to be honest, valid, and real. She wants her future to be based upon solid foundation, not slippery misrepresentations. She is concerned that because she knows something about her past that, for argument's sake, he does not (but, as I said, there is the very real possibility that he is fully aware of what she was trying to tell him), she will be entering into a marriage that has falsity as part of its underpinnings. I think she (and he) will be best served if she is prepared to fully disclose but will truly accept his decision that he does not want such disclosure.

KS: raising one's voice is not so bad; deliberately saying hurtful things is. Owning your own beliefs is crucially important to giving weight to the feedback that you provide during disagreements --> arguments --> fights. Expressing how you feel because of his behavior(s) is valid and absolutely right. That's the way rational, intelligent, emotionally mature boyz and girlz interact.

I don't know you, but I suspect that you know this stuff better than I.

[K.S.]

I almost got dumped/broke up with today, and I'm kinda numb now.

He's thinking about jobs in other states. After never fighting for all 7 months, I found myself miserable and watching myself become a Weepy Pain In The Ass over the past week.

My boyfriend is very kind and sweet, but a bit of a geeky loner. He fears commitment - never been in love and he's 38 years old.

I know, I know... I should RUN. But, we made it longer than any of his other relationships, and it seemed that he was falling in love with me. Hell, he told me he was (while we were drinking, and in a bantering way, not as a mushy declaration.) He also told me that he did love me a couple of weeks ago, but it was after he asked me how I felt about him and I told him I loved him.

This is what he told me this morning: that it's only going to be worse, later, if we wait to break up. He thought about whether or not he could see himself asking me to marry him and he said that no, he couldn't because the same things he likes about me are sometimes offputting to him. (I'm an extroverted, high-strung livewire, and he's well, emotionally constipated and moody.) Now he says he's not sure that he does love me. He cried and said that he was unhappy because he doesn't want to be alone and he'll miss me.

So, he started to drive me home, and then I cried some more and he turned around and we went and got pork sandwiches at Tony Luke's and went back to his house to eat.

I'd told myself that if we broke up, I wouldn't let him see me cry. But, I did. A lot. It really, really hurt. I didn't want to let go of him - I just buried my face in his lap and got snot all over him and clung to him.

I cried the way little kids do when they want candy at the supermarket and their moms won't give it to them. Sometimes, I even laughed at myself while I was crying. Like, all I had to say for myself was "BUT I WANT IT!!!" I felt stupid.

Then, I ended up doing something I really thought was stupid, but I couldn't help myself - I started telling him why he should want to be with me. I said "Don't you want someone to be in your corner, loving you?" I felt pathetic, but it's true. It's how I've always felt about him. I just want to love him and be sweet to him.

He looked really distraught, then he said "OK, here's a plan. We don't break up. We go to bed, because I'm tired, and then I have to take you home because I want to get a lot of work done."

I'm not sure if he was kidding, or if he really was thinking about how he could get more work done or if I wore him down or what.

We had very good make-up nookie, though, and plenty of cuddling. He seemed quite happy when he drove me home.

Now that I'm away from him, I'm thinking that I should have just let him break up with me. If he missed me that much, he would have called me and we could have gotten back together later. One thing I'm still pretty OK with: If we do break up for real, I won't be kicking myself, wondering "What's the matter with me." I figure it's all his problem if he doesn't love me.

Thank you for your patience. Sorry to dump so much on you all.

[frog]

KS, if he's worth pursuing, then you should pursue.

[HornDogBuddah]

KS: you've been over and over this same territory inside your head. Very clearly, you're in touch with how you feel about him and very clearly you've got great insights into who he is, how he is, and how and why you interact with him. So, enough with the self talk and metaanalysis. DO what your brain is telling you to do. Forget whether it's right or wrong, or how things might turn out. Just do it.

I've never met you, but I know you have qualities that few women (or men) can bring to the table -- articulate intelligence, analytical thinking, sense of humor, strong spirit, and a positive attitude towards lust and sexual adventure. Since you've been a successful provider, you're probably pretty attractive (maybe very much so?). And, no doubt, you have a certain talent for pleasuring (and being pleasured).

In other words, you be one luscious, hot mamma whose abilities aren't circumscribed by bedsheets.

So, get up on your two hind legs and go find someone who is worthy. Someone who will do unto you as you want to be done unto.

[Slinky Bender]

KS,
I have some bad news for you. You're totally normal. I also have some worse news for you. So's he.

[Richardrzhpippin]

If you are looking for a relationship guide - I suggest looking for other sources. This group of hobbyists, reprobates, adulterers, and self-appointed experts on everything would not be my first choice, second or even third choices...LOL...

Gentlemen, please don't use this banal and innocent post as a "raison d'etre" for a new crusade. We are all nice guys who spend thousands of dollars every year on "companionship" and "adventure." We then write about our adventures, offer ourselves as contemporary moralists, judges, advisors, therapists and consultants.
I'm assuming you approach this pleasantly diverting recreational activity as do I.. a pleasant but undeniably unimportant hobby for fun and relaxation.

[Edited by richardrzhpippin on 03-25-2001 at 07:22 PM]

[Hotpuppy]

I wouldnt be so quick to categorize the posters to this board, nor the level of importance to which they
take this hobby. My experience in following threads and receiving feedback to my very occasional posts has led me to believe that the posters take themselves and this hobby very seriously indeed!
As for the thread itself, I agree that this a questionable venue in which to seek relationship advice. One thing I find curious: One would think that KS would have formed friendships with clients from her days in the business that she could have corresponded with privately- if the advice of hobbyists is what she wanted. Why take this seemingly difficult and painful transition relationship public? If I were the guy in question, this is what I would have a problem with , not the fact that KS used to escort.

[K.S.]

You both raise very good points.
Well, I do trust the posters here to give me good input. I don't judge them as incompetent or anything, even if I have my little prejudices about the serious hobbyists! I think the guys here have a lot of experience (being largely married) and they're honest about things, too. They're not all sugar coating everything.

I don't mind that I'm being "public" about this because nobody here can actually hurt me. Sometimes there are people who will take what they've learned about me from my open posts and say things that are supposed to hurt me, but they don't often succeed. I'm not a completely "real" person to most of you, which I think makes it easier to talk to you guys about real problems.

Anyway, this thread already existed from before, and I really liked all the concern and kindness that was shown earlier. Yesterday, I was just really upset and I wanted to talk to somebody. I didn't feel like talking to my real life friends because, well, I didn't. I may have to pester them and cry on their shoulders in the near future, but I didn't think I'd get any objective feedback from them.

Well, I'm feeling much, much better today. I didn't have any of that nauseating "Shit it wasn't a nightmare" misery when I woke up this morning. I went out for brunch with friends this morning and actually enjoyed myself.

I figure it's his problem. I know he loves me and it's a shame that he's going to be lonely and miserable. I can't fix him.

I am definately skipping my annoyingly cheerful friend's Oscar party tonight, though. I just feel like working at my office today.

Thanks!

[Edited by K.S. on 03-25-2001 at 04:45 PM]

[Tankcommander]

and crusaders too...

KS, Hey, there are other fish in the sea...I'm not sure what that really means, but I hear it from everyone...LOL Starting from many here on the board...
Stiff upper lip and all...

[K.S.]

Well, I'm glad I never told him anything about my past. We really did break up, and I feel OK about it and I'm looking forward to meeting somebody new.

He really is very, very sweet and handsome and successful, but I think maybe I made too much of the fact that he's not a jerk. I should consider his good qualities my bare minimum requirements and have faith that there are many, many other men out there who will be just as wonderful and be right for me.

Somebody here called this my "transition" relationship, and they were right. I think my past stuff will matter less and less in my own mind. I'm not telling anyone until they love me, they tell me they love me, and they've proven to me that they love me. I'm glad I never told this guy, because, as sweet as he is, he didn't earn the right to knowing everything about me.

Anyway, just thought I'd check back in and tell you how things have ended up. Thanks for being helpful. People may think it's strange that I asked you guys, but I really think you guys know what you're talking about, in your own kinda twisted ways.

Thanks!

[Casper]

Originally posted by K.S.
People may think it's strange that I asked you guys, but I really think you guys know what you're talking about, in your own kinda twisted ways.
Thanks!

Is it me or does someone else take offense to that twisted ways comment ?

Yes you're going through a tough time, no doubt, however back handed "compliments" will not make you win any points with anyone, especially ones you consider "twisted".

C

[K.S.]

Oh, Casper! Don't be mad! I didn't mean it in a bad way, but in a rueful kinda way - we're ALL a little twisted here, don't you think?

Anyway, I'm sorry if I insulted anybody - I don't think ill of you guys. If I did, do you think I'd come in here and expose my vulnerabilities like this? I knew that this board was the best place to get advice on what to do if, when we got to this week's crossroads, we'd gone the other route to Serious Commitmentville. Everyone gave me such kind and thoughtful advice that when things ended this week, I thought I'd come back and share about it. (Fully aware that that may be childish and tiresome to some, but, hey, nobody's makin' ya read the posts!)

Anyway, if you're twisted, it's in a good way.

[Casper]

Originally posted by K.S.
Oh, Casper! Don't be mad! I didn't mean it in a bad way, but in a rueful kinda way - we're ALL a little twisted here, don't you think?


I'm far from mad, just thinking maybe I misread you or maybe you're not sensative to the way to use your words or punctuations !!!!

Originally posted by K.S.
(Fully aware that that may be childish and tiresome to some, but, hey, nobody's makin' ya read the posts!)
Anyway, if you're twisted, it's in a good way. [/B]

No one makes us read these posts, that is true. but there again is another example of the sarcasm/back handed compliment I've noticed from you. I've not read this thread in any detail till tonight, nor did I add my .02 cents in giving you advice because I had nothing new to add. However I felt a "vibe" in your posts, one of insensativity to the "hobbyists", but you say it was not meant in a bad way. I will take you at your word cause that is all I truly have to go on, not knowing you, nor you knowing me.

Words are powerful, so we should take care on how we use them. Just my .02 cents.

Peace out and my best to you for your future
C

[Edited by Casper on 03-27-2001 at 02:52 AM]

[frog]

how would one punctuate what KS wrote to make it more or less sensitive (sic)?

[frog]

frog is neither mad or angry at KS or Casper, or anyone.

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by K.S.
..... if you're twisted, it's in a good way. what about those of us who are 'twisted' in a naughty way? should our feelings be hurt? :confused:

[justme]

I prefer KS's honesty and occasional bluntness to the omnipresent alternative.

[Casper]

Originally posted by frog
frog is neither mad or angry at KS or Casper, or anyone.

Casper is neither mad nor angry at those who are not mad or angry at others (showing a "bit" of the twisted sense of humor KS spoke about

Piece out or is that Eat out, hmm or is that Eat in .. to be continued

C