Do not talk to the police - ever! [Archive]

genius

08-04-2008, 09:50 AM

Genius,

I agree with what you said, but the topic was more general than mongering, and the way you handle it pretty much follows the principle that you don't really engage with the cops. The "least said soonest mended" approach is still true.

If the cops were investigating a serious crime, they wouldn't take your answers as final, though.My example was just that. I believe you should answer the questions asked truthfully (easier to remember your answers at a later date) or say nothing. I see no reason to add anything other than an direct answer. In the case of serious crime (that you were not involved in) I believe this is espcially true and in fact the obligation of every citizen (as corny as that sounds) to do so. It would seem (to my naive mind perhaps) that by eliminating yourself as a suspect allows LE to spend more effort finding the bad guy. The questions I am talking about are: where were you last night at 9pm. Can anyone corroborate this, do you know so and so, and the like.

This is not to say I would just bend over and let them have their way with me, e.g. "Can we search your house or car?" Not w/o a warrant. However, if the cops said "your car matches the description of one seen near the kidnapping of a little girl - can we open your trunk?" My answer would be "I will open my trunk for the sole purpose of showing you that there is not a llittle girl in there."

marcinny

08-04-2008, 09:52 AM

Not everyone is witty or can fully remain cool and reasonable when they get caught or even they are being suspected without reason. While some can handle most of these situations, others are less capable.
I am not talking only about mongering. If you see you can't control yourself or the situation, just buy yourself some time or a lawyer. There is a reason why "the right to be silent..." was invented.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer

Lou Grant

08-04-2008, 09:56 AM

I think it is a mistake to say - "I have nothing to say until I talk to my lawyer."

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

By saying the above you are exercising your RIGHT to not incriminate yourself by ANYTHING you may say. Cops will take anything you say and find a use for it if they believe they have the person responsible for whatever act you may be accused. I have found cops to be not interested in justice but in "accomplishments", i.e. find SOMEONE to close the case.

Many years ago I did something that will always follow me wherever I go. (really don't want to go into it but it wasn't a crime of violence.) Got busted.* Dead to rights. Cops asked if I wanted to make a statement. Might help. I figured Sure, what they hell. They already had the evidence. So made the statement. Well, because of the statement I was sent to county for a day or 2 until I made bail. THEN I got a lawyer. Lawyer tore me a new one. Go to court, what probably could have been knocked down to misdemeanor wasn't because of my statement (so much for statement helping - it only helped the prosecutions case) and I have the "luxury" of having a felony conviction follow me for the rest of my life. (courts don't like to go to trials because it is too expensive. It is not worth the hassle to try someone when the outcome will only end up being a few hundred dollars in fines anyway. The court system is not about fair justice but expedient justice.)

The worst mistake you can ever make is to speak to a cop without the advice of an attorney who knows more than you do. I liked the example the cop used in the video, about getting in the ring with an Olympic or professional boxer. You will probably get your ass kicked. It is the same way with cops. Unless you have been on the other side of that table a few times, you don't stand a chance.

I appreciate genius's approach to being upfront with a cop as a means to possibly diffuse the situation, and maybe it worked for him, but it is bad advice to tell anyone who comes face to face with a cop about any criminal activity to not exercise their rights and seek council first.

*BTW, got busted by a cop in the township where I lived who was a friend of mine who had no problem pulling his 9mm and pointing it directly at my head. This was a guy I knew since he was something like 7 y.o. Obviously, there is no love lost between myself and law enforcement.

Just my personal experience. Take it for what it's worth.

scoochamenz1

08-04-2008, 03:46 PM

the court system is not about expedient justice. there is very little justice in court. ask all the poor people who are in jail because they couldn't afford a good lawyer. court is all about the prosecutor (or should i say persecutor) getting the best result they can. why do you think adolph giuliani had a bunch of misdemeanors changed to felonies when he was mayor? to keep the city safe? no, so that when he ran for mayor again (or any other office), he could tell everyone "look at all the felony convictions we got when i was mayor". i speak from experience. i too was arrested for a non-violent crime and, as much as i hate to say it, the cops were pretty fucking nice to us, but the ada who got our case wanted nothing more than to hang felonies on everyone, even though most of those arrested had almost nothing to do with what was going on. prosecutors are politicians, politicians will hang their fathers and put their moms away for life if it means a fucking promotion or a chance at a higher office.

wolf5958

08-04-2008, 04:01 PM

I have to put my 2 cents in here, I agree with not opening your mouth. Making excuses or even being honest and your ass is locked up. So if your going down anyway why help them by opening your mouth. I have had enough experince with LE in many different states and cities. It don't matter, from my experince I always came out better when there was no one else involved or when we all were smart enough to keep our mouths shut and have a paid mouth piece talk for us. I watch both vids here and the cop was dead on with what he was talking about I have had all of that thrown at me at one time or the other...

Bandaid

08-04-2008, 06:50 PM

Lou Grant said, "I appreciate genius's approach to being upfront with a cop as a means to possibly diffuse the situation, and maybe it worked for him, but it is bad advice to tell anyone who comes face to face with a cop about any criminal activity to not exercise their rights and seek council first."

Genius's way is for a specific situation. If you're caught up in a spa bust, for example, you have to balance not getting yourself busted and not being too annoying, because the cop can detain you several hours or even find an offense. Maybe you should say nothing, but what Genius does is a way of saying nothing. It's worked for him.

*BTW, got busted by a cop in the township where I lived who was a friend of mine who had no problem pulling his 9mm and pointing it directly at my head. This was a guy I knew since he was something like 7 y.o. Obviously, there is no love lost between myself and law enforcement."

I respect how the police protect people, I understand the necessity for them, I know they enforce the laws I don't like as well as the ones I agree with, I'm aware of the dangers of their jobs - but I don't want any more contact with cops than necessary and I don't consider them friends. They're not. That tension will always be there.

waynnet

08-05-2008, 07:38 AM

[QUOTE=genius;783975]I believe you should answer the questions asked truthfully ...or say nothing... The questions I am talking about are: where were you last night at 9pm. Can anyone corroborate this, do you know so and so, and the like...

Sounds safe, but what if you tell them "I was grabbing a bite at McDonald's" true - but in the heat of the moment you forgot you had gone to Burger King not McD's. Later LE pulls video from McD's and your not on it - now they have you.

Still I agree in a standard, low level situation such as a traffic offence I'm not going to say "I will speak to my attorney". You want to say something to make the cop know you respect him (without admitting anything) and hopefully he'll cut you some slack.
But if it's something you might end up it court over...I think that video said it.

monger_master

08-05-2008, 08:40 AM

When I was young and stupid, and horny, one night my buddies and I decided to go out clubbing in downtown Houston. I had crashed and burned on a date, who probably would have had sex with me, but I didn't put on the moves fast enough. So after drinking half a bottle of wine and a few beers with my buddies I stupidly agreed to drive us to this dance club where we had all picked up girls in the past.

Got pulled over going through a "yellow/red/magenta" light and the interrogation commenced. Needless to say I got arrested and sent down to jail for the night. But, while I was there I refused to answer questions on the video camera (although I did do the sobriety test on camera). Also submitted to the breathalyzer exam.

After making bail -- you know who your real friends are when you need $700 in a pinch as a young twentysomething -- I got an attorney and he gave me the scoop, at least in _this_ situation. He admonished me for ever submitting to the sobriety tests on the road, or for answering questions about how much/when/where I'd been drinking (every time I answered one, that just led to even more questions, and eventually the cop is just trying to get you to pony up the answer he wants to hear). Basically he said cops have the authority to arrest you under some pretty low levels of evidence, because ultimately they can just release you without charges if it turns out there isn't anything to pin you on. His advice to me was for future reference, if I have been drinking and get pulled over, if the cop asks me to get out and perform the sobriety test he's already made up his mind to arrest me. So refuse the sobriety test, refuse the breathalyzer test, refuse to make any statements, until they get you down to the station and on camera your statement is "I am not intoxicated."

It also helps that I don't drink anymore either!

But I guess the moral of the story to me was, law enforcement have pressure to exert, will exert such pressure and playing their game by their rules is stupid and usually not helpful.

Justice is kind of a filler word in the court system, I do agree with the poster who said that the courts care about expediency. That is the truth. A criminal judge's court docket is hundreds a day, and they'd love to see 60% of them plea bargained. You have every right to go to trial, which is the route I took and my case was dismissed on the trial date. The prosecutor was furious and I was relieved out of my mind.

magicfingersny

08-05-2008, 08:47 AM

Highly informative information, especially when corroborated by the LE side. We rarely get that slant! Thanks for a GREAT post Duster!

donquixote04

08-05-2008, 09:19 AM

... Dont agree. In my relatively few encounters with the police I have always answered questions truthfully. However I have not said anything extra other than to the question being asked ...

1. ... 3. Are you driving around here to pick up prostitutes?ANS: Prostitution is against the law ...
I'm not a lawyer either, but after listening to the video linked above, I think, at your trial, the prosecuter would say "Was their anything about genius's answers that you found suspicious?"The cop would reply "Yes, he evaded answering directly when I asked him if he was driving around to pick up prostitutes."

Monk

08-05-2008, 09:45 AM

The truth is, if you wait for your lawyer, in most cases, you won't ever get to trial. You probably won't get charged (unless they've caught you red handed or you've committed a violent crime), and if you do, he or she will work out a deal. That's why you need your lawyer there in the first place. It's a good idea to carry the name and number of a good criminal defense lawyer in your wallet, just in case.

Lou Grant

08-05-2008, 10:43 AM

fortydog

08-05-2008, 12:01 PM

Thanks for that link Lou!

57676

08-05-2008, 06:51 PM

I have PBA cards that were given to me by police officers. I have used them with success after being pulled over for speeding. I have always wondered if I was caught in a bust would it be a good or bad idea to show them to the officers.

(Bearing in mind this has become essentially IRRELEVANT now that both B&G and HLDC are history).

humsuplo

08-05-2008, 08:49 PM

Am I correct in assuming that a PBA card is the same as a FOP?

Lou Grant

08-05-2008, 10:24 PM

refuse the breathalyzer test,

I thought if you refuse a breatalyzer test it is an automatic suspension of your license. Not a DUI, but suspension none-the-less.

magicfingersny

08-06-2008, 01:42 AM

monger_master

08-06-2008, 07:24 AM

As I said previously, my incident occurred in TX. And even there, refusal to do the breathalyzer does automatically lead to a suspension of your license. Then again, blowing above 0.12 also leads to a suspension, just not automatically. Naturally, as with all rights, you have a right to a hearing on the suspension (because you are able to argue that the reason for being pulled over was inadequate, etc). And in TX, it is a civil case, rather than criminal for the driver's license suspension and the rules of the game are different. If the cop doesn't show up there, you automatically win your hearing and the license is not suspended -- that's what happened to me. If the cop does show up, your attorney can question him on the stand, which is sworn testimony that he cannot contradict in your criminal DUI case. (Which essentially gives you lots of time to prepare for your defense knowing exactly what the other side's testimony will be). Naturally, if the cop shows up you usually do not win your hearing as the judge sides with the testimony of the officer, unless you can somehow prove that his/her testimony is unreliable (good luck with that). So in that event, you have to apply for a restricted license (drive to and from work, doctor, etc, ONLY) while your license is suspended.

Basically, the whole point is that we civilians are not privy to the wholly complicated process known as the criminal justice system. There are so many facets that I would never do anything without an attorney present/or upon his advice. Even if it's just for the pure detached/objective perspective he/she will bring. There is the old maxim, an attorney who represents himself has a fool for a client.

genius

08-06-2008, 09:37 AM

I'm not a lawyer either, but after listening to the video linked above, I think, at your trial, the prosecuter would say "Was their anything about genius's answers that you found suspicious?"The cop would reply "Yes, he evaded answering directly when I asked him if he was driving around to pick up prostitutes."And in your opinion you think it is better than if the cop said "Yes, when I asked him if he was driving around to pick up prostitutes, Mr Genius said 'I wont have anything to say until I talk to my lawyer'".

genius

08-06-2008, 09:46 AM

I remembered there was a thread posted here years ago that referenced an ACLU info topic about what to do if you are stopped or arrested. In light of this conversation I think it bears repeating (especially since the link in the original thread is dead)

http://www.aclu.org/police/gen/14528res20040730.html

The link also has a pdf download small enough that you can keep it in your wallet next to your lawyers business card.

Know your rights.IMHO the link and what I do is in sync.

Note that this 1st item on their list is : Think carefully about your words, movement, body language, and emotions.

It is not "Give them your name and license and say "I wont answer any questions until I see my lawyer"

donquixote04

08-06-2008, 10:44 AM

nevermind

donquixote04

08-06-2008, 10:49 AM

And in your opinion you think it is better than if the cop said "Yes, when I asked him if he was driving around to pick up prostitutes, Mr Genius said 'I wont have anything to say until I talk to my lawyer'".
I think it's a false choice to ask "which is worse, being in a court where my answer is described as evasive or being in a court where by answer is to ask for a lawyer."

With the 1st answer, if the cops want you to go to court, you'll be there and you'll look bad.

With the 2nd answer, unless you were observed or there is some other witness to a real crime, you won't even get to court.

Lou Grant

08-06-2008, 02:28 PM

IMHO the link and what I do is in sync.

Note that this 1st item on their list is : Think carefully about your words, movement, body language, and emotions.

It is not "Give them your name and license and say "I wont answer any questions until I see my lawyer"

Like I said, it worked for your situation.

I took issue with your blanket statement that it's a mistake to say "not without my lawyer". This can be interpreted many ways. People needs to listen to experts on these matters who know considerably more than they do. Not everyone is a genius ( :D ) and can work their way out of a situation. If it works for you, keep it up. But like I said, I have no love for cops and from personal and friends' experience that feeling goes deep.

genius

08-07-2008, 04:27 AM

Like I said, it worked for your situation.

I took issue with your blanket statement that it's a mistake to say "not without my lawyer". This can be interpreted many ways. People needs to listen to experts on these matters who know considerably more than they do. Not everyone is a genius ( :D ) and can work their way out of a situation. If it works for you, keep it up. But like I said, I have no love for cops and from personal and friends' experience that feeling goes deep.I really dont get the of the points you guys are making.

Are you saying:

1.If you stop to pick up a young "lady" and a cop sees and stop you and asks you why you picked her up do you say "I'm not going to say anything until I see my lawyer"

2. If you are driving slowly at midnight (as I was once on a business trip in an unformiliar area trying to read figure out my next turn) and a cop stops you and asks if you were drinking (I had a beer with food on the airplane 3 hours prior) do you say "I'm not going to say anything until I see my lawyer."

3. If you are in a car that was similar to one reported by locals to the police as being involed in a drug buy (mistaken identity) and you happen to be driving through the same area on the way to somewhere else and a cop sees and stop you and asks you why you driving in that area do you say "I'm not going to say anything until I see my lawyer"

4. If you are walking down the street at 3 am carrying a stereo and have a pry bar with you and are seen and the questioned by a cop and asked where did you get that stereo do you say "I'm not going to say anything until I see my lawyer".

If you read the ACLU guide you only say that if you are arrested.

The cop has a need to know certain perfectly reasonable things to perform his duty in keeping bad guys off the street. All these things have happened to me except #4 (I'm pretty sure #3 was true as the cop asked me if I had any illegal drugs in the car). I answered all his questions, truthfully, adding nothing not specifically asked. Once a cop asked me why I stopped for "a known prostitute" - my answer was "She is? How would I know that - she just indicated she needed a ride" Notice that I didnt answer his question but I didnt lie either. She was obviously a prostitute as she gave me "the look" - and she indeed indicated she needed a ride. If the cop was sure I was "a bad guy" he certainly could have reported that he saw me run a red light, or speeding 50 in a 30 or something else false - but he didnt. what do you think would have happened if I said "I'm not going to say anything until I see my lawyer".

Bandaid

08-07-2008, 04:41 PM

I take your points, genius, and I'd love to hear what the lawyer who gave that lecture has to say about situations like you describe. He seemed to focus on interviews at the station after you've been busted or held for questioning. I agree with the guy in principle, but I wouldn't use the "I'm not going..." line in situations like you describe, either. Actually, I wouldn't mention lawyers, but I might say "I'm sorry, I'm not going to answer that" or similar.

Still, you're not that far apart. You have a more artful way of saying nothing, and you don't want to fuck up a chance to be let go.

57676

08-07-2008, 07:38 PM

Am I correct in assuming that a PBA card is the same as a FOP?

It's the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association. I think it is a different organization.

puffin

08-07-2008, 08:01 PM

I agree with the professor and the cop who spoke after him. The 5th amendment is one of the best things about this country. He expounded on eight reasons why saying something is always worse than simply keeping silent. When cops ask me if I know how fast I was going, I typically evade the question and keep my answers general or better yet answer a different question. Q: Do you know how fast were going? A: I was just taking a drive.

genius

08-08-2008, 01:49 AM

..... He expounded on eight reasons why saying something is always worse than simply keeping silent. When cops ask me if I know how fast I was going, I typically evade the question and keep my answers general or better yet answer a different question. Q: Do you know how fast were going? A: I was just taking a drive.If you believe that "saying something is always worse than simply keeping silent.", when cops asks you if I know how fast were going why don’t you just take the 5th or remain silent?

BTW - your evasive answer is too obviously evasive. The best answer, IMHO, is to say, "whenever I see a speed limit sign I adjust my speed to the posted speed"

My answer is:
1. Almost relevant to the question answered - so it doesn’t insult the cops intelligence and piss him off.
2. Doesn’t indicate to the cop that you are lying if he has you on RADAR doing 50 in a 30. If he has you on RADAR and you say you were doing the speed limit you will just piss him off by lying. whereas my answer implies you think you were doing the limit but leaves open the possibility you must have drifted in speed from the last time you saw a speed sign or perhaps you didnt notice the last speed sign.

BTW - I have been stopped for speeding - never got a speeding ticket as almost never on RADAR (too easy to spot them). The closest to a speeding ticket I got was getting nabbed on RADAR(only time caught on RADAR) dong 68 in a 65 (you read that right) by the New Paltz LE patrolling their section of the NY Thruway at 11pm at night being the only one on the road. When asked how fast I was going I said "This is a rented car - I set the cruise control to 65" He said - "you were doing 68 - but it sounds like you have a defective speedometer - so I'm giving you a ticket for defective speedometer - same fine but no points. The fine is payable to the New Paltz Village Court "

puffin

08-08-2008, 04:42 AM

As entertaining as the professor's lecture was, the cop's talk was better in some ways. He had some great points as to the amount of experience the police have "interviewing" people, and the fact that they have no problem picking up O/T wearing out the suspect. That story about the college student who wanted to be a lawyer was quite telling as to human nature. This guy was obviously motivated by a desire to prove himself better than the average Joe. All the cop had to do was allow him to brag about how smart he was and his ego pretty much drove him to admit how he would outsmart the police. Now he's serving time. He took the bait and did exactly what the cop expected.

genius

08-08-2008, 08:00 AM

A...That story about the college student who wanted to be a lawyer was quite telling as to human nature. This guy was obviously motivated by a desire to prove himself better than the average Joe. All the cop had to do was allow him to brag about how smart he was and his ego pretty much drove him to admit how he would outsmart the police. .....What you are saying is he didn't do as I have done and have been saying all along:
…. In my relatively few encounters with the police I have always answered questions truthfully. However I have not said anything extra other than to the question being asked.....

Kano

08-12-2008, 06:32 PM

Always STFU until your laeyer arrives, if your in this hobby you should have one on retainer just in case :D

Thorn

08-12-2008, 07:53 PM

My example was just that. I believe you should answer the questions asked truthfully (easier to remember your answers at a later date) or say nothing.

From direct personal experience as a retired law enforcement officer, detective and detective supervisor I can tell you that in speaking with the police the truth will never set you free.

While it might not hurt you the fact is it can never help you. The police are either going to let you go because they have found no probable cause to hold you or they have found it and will arrest you.

Let me say that again to be clear about it: Anything you add to the process, even if it is the absolute truth, will NOT subtract from the likelihood of your being arrested if the police find probable cause, and can only add to what the police have to look into to find probable cause to arrest you.

When detained by the police the only things that should be said, and very politely, are: 1) Am I being detained? 2) If the answer is yes: May I ask for what am I being detained? 3) Followed by: May I call a lawyer. 4) If the answer is no: Am I free to leave now?

The only thing you must answer is your proper name and address, as the Supreme Court has decided recently that individuals are not free from providing identification information to the police. Though you do not have to have papers to substantiate your claim as to your identity YOU MUST provide a lawful name and address if asked of you. If you do not and probable cause for arrest is found later you may be adding a charge of "Obstruction of Justice" to your charges.

Ruv Me Rong Time!!

08-13-2008, 10:54 AM

57676

08-13-2008, 02:10 PM

wolf5958

08-13-2008, 02:18 PM

[QUOTE=Ruv Me Rong Time!!;786270]FOP and PBA are just different organizations (unions i think). either card works interchangeably. Keep in mind though.... if you give up one of those cards. The cop you give it too might very well reach out for the cop that gave the card to you. so... you better be ok with the cop who gave it to you knowing why you were stopped.

That is the concern that I had. Any opinions if it would be useful/effective, i.e. would it be a "get out of jail free" card.

Thorn, what do you think ?

Thorn may agree or not but I carry a PBA card a DEA card and a Suffolk county sheriffs card. I also have a gold and 2 silver shields in my wallet. For traffic stops the right card will sometimes work wonders like speeding in the town of south hampton i pull the suffolk card and usually walk in Nassau I use the PBA card and in the city the DEA card but they only work for traffic stops and yes they do sometime contact the officer who's name is on the card but that is why I was given the cards in the first place. I would never think of pulling one of those cards out if I was arrested for a crinimal charge in that case my first call would be a lawyer or someone who could get me one. Those cards are never get out of jail free type but they can some times buy you a escape from a ticket...

57676

08-13-2008, 03:34 PM

Sounds like good logic. One time I got off with a warning going ~95 mph on the highway. The officer did call the officer who issued the card (he had put his cell phone # on it).

Ruv Me Rong Time!!

08-15-2008, 10:01 AM

on a traffic ticket im 100% with you. i give them the card first thing.

But.... im not gonna give them my girlfriend's brother's card if im stopped with a ho in the car. ... bucause... im not to keen on her brother finding something like that out.

thats the only point i was making. he doesnt care if im driving up on sidewalks at 90 mph.

Thorn

08-15-2008, 09:43 PM

FOP and PBA are just different organizations (unions i think). either card works interchangeably. Keep in mind though.... if you give up one of those cards. The cop you give it too might very well reach out for the cop that gave the card to you. so... you better be ok with the cop who gave it to you knowing why you were stopped.

if you refuse the sobriety or breathalyzer tests the cops will charge you with refusal. IN which case they wont have to prove you were drunk just that you were driving. The penalty for refusal is exactly the same as it is for drunk driving. a buddy of mind learned this the hard way in NJ.

You aren't quite correct in your statements above.

The "Fraternal Order of Police" is just that, a fraternal organization. The lodges, which is what a local organization is called, can either be a social organizations made up of LE members, family and other "associate members' from all manner of jurisdictions or they can be open to the membership of only one department. In the latter case they are almost always also collective bargaining units for that membership.

The Police Benevolent Association are a group locals, which is what the local organizations are called, and are always only open to membership from a specific law enforcement department and are always collective bargaining agents for that group.

The FOP does not care if you belong also to the PBA. The PBA very much cares if you also belong to the FOP, having spawned court cases in several states to sue for the right to kick members of the PBA out of the locals [black balling] if it is found they are also members of the FOP.

The first, last, and only time you will see me write this: Unofficially, what you are referencing are called "courtesy cards". I will simply say that they imply the person carrying one is a friend or family member of the officer whose card it is and it is presented from the presenter as a third party request for professional courtesy. It doesn't obligate the officer presented the card in any way and whether that request is honored will be totally at that officer's discretion. Though in truth in minor situations such request is far more often obliged than declined.

Officially such cards are simply ways of indicating the card holder is a friend or family member who supports their friend or relatives FOP or PBA safe driver program. The cards are neither the property of the holder or of the officer who signed it, but belong to the state FOP or PBA organizations [or issuing authority in other cases] and can be taken by any law enforcement officer and held. IOW, if presented to an officer that officer may determine you shouldn't be carrying it and will hold it. Normally it would be forwarded through the state delegate of that organization back to the issuing officer with an explanation of why it was held.

=====

The refusal to take the breathalyzer exam in NJ [NJSA 39:4-50.2] isn't issued instead of the the Driving while under the influence charge [NJSA 39:4-50], but in addition too. So if you refuse a lawful order to take either a breathalyzer or blood exam you can be found guilty of both refusal of the implied consent law AND driving under the influence.

MrFreeze451

08-16-2008, 05:47 AM

I believe it is an automatic suspension in NY State and even if you refruse,a court order canbe issued to obtain a blood sample which will more accurately reveal your BAC. I think it varies from State to State.
Jere is a list of terms related to varuiys driving under the influence & brathayzer refulsal info
http://www.nysda.org/Publications/04_DWISlanguage.pdf

Yes, automatic suspension and there can result in a higher charge. That said never at the scene. NEVER. Refuse when they pull you over. At the precinct, now that some time has past, you will hopefully appear a little less intoxicated. I still think a refusal is on order. And a suspended license beats an admission and high number on the breathalyzer.

As for talking to the police:

If you are already under arrest, under all circumstances: SHUT THE FUCK UP.

If you are asked to come in for questioning: CALL YOUR LAWYER IMMEDIATELY. (if you don't have one, get one and follow his or her advice.

If the cops appear and just want to talk. ASK TO CALL A LAWYER AND SHUT UP.

If you are going to talk to the police, let your lawyer arrange it. In most cases, if he decides the benefit of a conversation, outweigh the GRAVE risks, he will likely secure a Queen for a day agreement, which allows you to speak but prevents law enforcement from using those statements against you directly in most circumstances. And then if you do go in, DO NOT LIE. Lying to law enforcement in also a crime in many States and in the all federal jurisdictions.

All of that said, I still say: SHUT THE FUCK Up
The professor is 1000% correct.

MrFreeze451

08-16-2008, 05:53 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1VmGjJJFrc&feature=related

Slinky Bender

08-16-2008, 02:59 PM

Watching that video (probably fake?) I would think that they would have some liability for unjuries the guy sustained in the second fall (a guy puts his head thru the wall while you're watchig him and you put him back in the same situation again?).

57676

08-17-2008, 04:55 PM

The first, last, and only time you will see me write this: Unofficially, what you are referencing are called "courtesy cards". ........... and it is presented from the presenter as a third party request for professional courtesy. It doesn't obligate the officer presented the card in any way and whether that request is honored will be totally at that officer's discretion. Though in truth in minor situations such request is far more often obliged than declined....

Greatly appreciate your input on this question. Just wondering if you thought this would be a good or bad thing to produce say if one were asked for ID in a bust at a parlor or escort situation. That is would you anticipate the officer would likely act favorably/neutral or negatively ?

puffin

08-17-2008, 05:22 PM

Greatly appreciate your input on this question. Just wondering if you thought this would be a good or bad thing to produce say if one were asked for ID in a bust at a parlor or escort situation. That is would you anticipate the officer would likely act favorably/neutral or negatively ?
From a human nature perspective, I would think you would be worse off if you flashed that little card in a very visible fashion. If you are trying that trick with a speeding ticket, well the cop just shrugs and figures I can nab someone else in ten minutes anyhow, so why give grief to a friend of the force. A serious bust would be another matter, especially with plainclothes units etc. I'm just riffing here, so take it FWIW.

genius

08-18-2008, 09:41 AM

From a human nature perspective, I would think you would be worse off if you flashed that little card in a very visible fashion. If you are trying that trick with a speeding ticket, well the cop just shrugs and figures I can nab someone else in ten minutes anyhow, so why give grief to a friend of the force. A serious bust would be another matter, especially with plainclothes units etc. I'm just riffing here, so take it FWIW.IMHO -You never "flash" it - especially if the others being ID'd dont have one. What you do is you have it in one of those little clear plastic fold-outs in your wallet and it just happens to be opposite ( and easily seen) where you keep your ID. They always want you to take your ID out and hand it to them - if while doing that they also happen to see the card.....

This is how I've seen it done in traffic stops. However, a neighbor cop I know says it doesnt do any good for him to even show his badge if stopped for speeding by local police upstate.

biohazard

08-18-2008, 09:56 AM

However, a neighbor cop I know says it doesnt do any good for him to even show his badge if stopped for speeding by local police upstate.

State Trooper cards work better but not 100%

Monk

08-18-2008, 12:18 PM

They depend on the revenue.

SirF

09-10-2008, 12:33 PM

Monk

09-10-2008, 12:56 PM

Why do you think it could possibly work?

Thorn

09-11-2008, 02:15 AM

Saw this on CL. Do you think this would work or is she kidding herself?

I'M AN INDEPENDANT PROVIDER IN CT. By contacting me, U AGREE THAT:

1)THIS IS NOT AN ILLEGAL OFFER. THAT I'M PAID FOR MY TIME AND COMPANIONSHIP ONLY;
2) I WILL NOT BE OFFERED ANY MONEY FOR ANY SEX ACT;
3) U ARE NOT PART OF ANY LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES AND U DO NOT WORK FOR OR WITH ANY LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES;

4) VIOLATION OF THIS AGREEMENT IS ENTRAPMENT

Statements like this and similar have been tested in court and failed utterly.

IRVINGTON29

09-12-2008, 09:22 AM

Basically

Just like when the provider asks if you are a COP?

Yea bitch I am a cop can you put on these handcuffs for me to see if they fit.

My question is ho are you A COP?

DrFaust1

09-25-2008, 02:14 PM

All that stuff about not talking to 5-0 is absolutely true...if you get caught, and they are doing a sweep, you are gonna go to the can ...and when they write their report, they are trained to write reports that solely favor prosecution....your explanations will be twisted, selectively quoted, and you'll read stuff that makes you look like Jack-The-Ripper!..It will be as if you were never at THAT incident, but you'll be prosecuted for it!!!TRUST ME, KEEP YOU TRAP SHUT !!! And remember the principal of the six (6) P's...prior preparation prevents piss poor performance......do your due diligence and scope out the place you're at before you are pulled over for circling an area....most unmarked cruisers can be pretty easily id'd!...Always be suspicious of a regular looking car in the area that carries TWO occupants...if you see that, find some other place to play...BE SMART!

SirF

09-25-2008, 04:25 PM

what's with the pissing? I don't get it.

puffin

09-25-2008, 05:50 PM

All that stuff about not talking to 5-0 is absolutely true...
Book him Dan-O!

tommynj

09-26-2008, 10:25 AM

So one day I walk out of an incall place or hotel and I am stopped by LE who apparently has the place under watch. They identify themselves and start asking questions -"what are you doing here, who did you visit here, etc.." What is the appropriate response??

Waterclone

09-26-2008, 11:24 AM

The appropriate response is "no comprendo"

genius

09-26-2008, 02:49 PM

The appropriate response is "no comprendo"tommynj has a legitimate question. You may think saying "no comprendo"[ is funny but the cop may start speaking in Spanish - then what do you do then - "Ich verstehe nicht"?

So what do our legal experts say to do if LE "start asking questions -"what are you doing here, who did you visit here, etc.." What is the appropriate response?

wolf5958

09-26-2008, 03:06 PM

I'm sorry what country are we in......oh the USA. We have freedoms here that say you can come and go as you please. If you are coming out of an incall that is being watched so what. A cop can ask you why you are there but you have the right not to answer and on top of that unless they saw you give money to the girl than saw you f--k her there is no crime. They need probable cause to search you and unless you have a joint or some other illegal thing on you there is no reson to fear. If the cop knows you were at the incall again so what, that's my friends place and I was just visiting. Remember just like speeding the cop has to witeness the offense to write the ticket the same hold true for solictation. There is nothing illegal about walking out of a building in NY or this country period. So if the cop asks any and all repsonces will work excet for I was with a pro on the 5th floor. I am begining to think there are a lot of paranoid people on this board and in this hobby. You all over think and that is were you get into trouble. relax and just go with the flow. Believe me if a building is being watch because it is a incall you'll know it before you go in.

SirF

09-27-2008, 10:38 AM

You ask him the same questions that he asked you.

momomini

09-27-2008, 04:23 PM

Saw this on CL. Do you think this would work or is she kidding herself?

I'M AN INDEPENDANT PROVIDER IN CT. By contacting me, U AGREE THAT:

1)THIS IS NOT AN ILLEGAL OFFER. THAT I'M PAID FOR MY TIME AND COMPANIONSHIP ONLY;
2) I WILL NOT BE OFFERED ANY MONEY FOR ANY SEX ACT;
3) U ARE NOT PART OF ANY LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES AND U DO NOT WORK FOR OR WITH ANY LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES;

4) VIOLATION OF THIS AGREEMENT IS ENTRAPMENT

A law professor once asked me if a person put a big banner on the front of their car that says "NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANYTHING I HIT" and then rear ends someone, do you think that would stand up in court?

Waterclone

09-27-2008, 05:44 PM

tommynj has a legitimate question. You may think saying "no comprendo"[ is funny but the cop may start speaking in Spanish - then what do you do then - "Ich verstehe nicht"?

So what do our legal experts say to do if LE "start asking questions -"what are you doing here, who did you visit here, etc.." What is the appropriate response?

You are right. I was just making a joke. I am no law expert, but I do know that you don't have to talk to the cops.

Q: what are you doing here.
A: none of your business.
A: breathing
A: hanging out
A: my mother told me never to talk to strangers
A: sorry. I'd love to chat, but I gotta run. take care.
A: I am sorry. You'll have to talk to my lawyer.

Any real legal eagles want to chime in?

puffin

09-27-2008, 08:58 PM

You are right. I was just making a joke. I am no law expert...
Any real legal eagles want to chime in?
IMHO -- though I have stated previously that anything you tell a cop will be used against you if they decide to focus in on you -- getting a cop pissed off is a bad idea. They are human, and they have all the weaknesses of the general populace, and (for example) you can get tasered (http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/09/27/NYC_police_to_get_Taser_training/UPI-87171222544629/) for no good reason. So there is balancing act here.

tommynj

09-28-2008, 07:45 PM

You are right. I was just making a joke. I am no law expert, but I do know that you don't have to talk to the cops.

Q: what are you doing here.
A: none of your business.
A: breathing
A: hanging out
A: my mother told me never to talk to strangers
A: sorry. I'd love to chat, but I gotta run. take care.
A: I am sorry. You'll have to talk to my lawyer.

Any real legal eagles want to chime in?

can any of this be considered as hindering an investigation?

tommynj

09-28-2008, 07:49 PM

Perfect example of why you keep your mouth shut!

Car alarm leads to prostitution charges in Hanover
Daily Record staff reports • September 27, 2008

HANOVER, NJ-- A noisy car alarm led to the arrest of four people on prostitution charges.

Patrolman Dominic Kaiser was on patrol Thursday at 12:43 a.m. at a local hotel parking lot when he came upon a vehicle with its alarm sounding.

A check of the vehicle found it was occupied by Jennifer Matuschewitz, 26, of Cliffside Park. Matuschewitz told the officer that her friends had gone to get a room and she did not have the keys, said police Capt. Shawn Waldron.

Moments later the driver, Andre Lazarev, 37 of Brooklyn, N.Y., arrived and shut off the alarm. While speaking with the two, Kaiser, accompanied by Sgt. Anthony Vitanza and Bryan Pilipie, learned that the two had little knowledge of each other or where they had been or why they where there, Waldron said. Further investigation revealed a second female, Candice Salvatore, 22 of Staten Island, N.Y., was inside the hotel allegedly engaged in prostitution with Rodney Griffing, 38, of Glencoe, Mo., Waldron said.

All four were arrested; Matuschewitz was charged with conspiracy to commit prostitution, Lazarev was charged with promoting prostitution, Griffing was charged with prostitution and Salvatore was charged with prostitution, resisting arrest and disorderly conduct.

The four were released with a court date pending.

Police declined to release the name of the hotel but said the investigation revealed that an escort service had been called to arrange the encounter.

Bandaid

09-29-2008, 11:51 AM

IMHO -- though I have stated previously that anything you tell a cop will be used against you if they decide to focus in on you -- getting a cop pissed off is a bad idea. They are human, and they have all the weaknesses of the general populace, and (for example) you can get tasered (http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/09/27/NYC_police_to_get_Taser_training/UPI-87171222544629/) for no good reason. So there is balancing act here.
I agree. I wouldn't give a smartass answer, ever. I don't like the "you have to talk to my lawyer" answer because it sort of presupposes the situation is going to get to needing a lawyer. I'd save that for later. I might just say "I'm sorry, I don't choose to answer that" or something else neither smartass or confrontational.

SirF

09-29-2008, 12:09 PM

I still think answering the question with a question is the best course of action. For example: "Why do you want to know?"

fumpton

09-29-2008, 07:45 PM

Scroll down to "Know your Rights". Then click on the first link for the downloadable pocket card.

http://action.aclu.org/site/PageServer?pagename=AS_downloads

magicfingersny

09-29-2008, 08:15 PM

I still think answering the question with a question is the best course of action. For example: "Why do you want to know?"
I think a lot of cops might considerthat a smart ass answer. Try gentling the words like "Is there some kind of problem in the area". Or a friend asked you to pick this friend of theirs up & give them a ride. JMHO

puffin

09-29-2008, 08:59 PM

Scroll down to "Know your Rights". Then click on the first link for the downloadable pocket card.
http://action.aclu.org/site/PageServer?pagename=AS_downloads
Despite the fact that the link you provided is pretty much much the last word on the subject it seems this discussion will only continue with renewed vigor.

Thorn

09-29-2008, 10:15 PM

can any of this be considered as hindering an investigation?

I'd hardly think so, BUT what they would do is give an investigating officer every reason to want to find something, anything, to stick it to you.

Please remember, for your own good, that while most officer are trained professionals and act it they are also human beings. It never pays to tweak the nose of someone who is in a position to screw with your ability to freely move about.

The best thing to do is to politely answer questions with questions, unless the question is in regard to your ID info. The failure of which to provide could be construed as hindering in certain circumstances.

Question: What are you doing in this area?

Answer: Why do you ask, Officer?

Question: Were you doing [insert illegal act]?

Answer: What would make you think I was?

Question: Are you jerking me around.

Answer: No, Officer. I respect the police and have no desire to make you angry with me. I just want to be on my way. May I go now?

Thorn

09-29-2008, 10:20 PM

Perfect example of why you keep your mouth shut!

Car alarm leads to prostitution charges in Hanover
Daily Record staff reports • September 27, 2008

HANOVER, NJ-- A noisy car alarm led to the arrest of four people on prostitution charges.

Thanks for posting the article, Tommy.

Folks I encourage anyone who finds anything interesting that pertains to why we do what we do, the ironies involved in "this thing or ours", or the pitfalls therein to post same in a thread in this forum.

We'll discuss it, learn a little something and maybe have some fun along the way.

Wishing well...

Thorn

09-29-2008, 10:25 PM

I think a lot of cops might considerthat a smart ass answer. Try gentling the words like "Is there some kind of problem in the area". Or a friend asked you to pick this friend of theirs up & give them a ride. JMHO

NO!

Never lie. An investigating officer will record what you said, either in his reports or sometimes an actual audio recording that will be taken as evidence and possibly played later at trial [it is legal in most states and many officers carry small digital recorders now-days].

If you lie about being in the area to pick up friends our credibility is shot and it will be used later to discredit something you say that may be the truth.

Example: Prosecutor asking question to accused at trial, "Mr Insert Name, isn't it a fact that when Officer Friendly approached you and asked you what you were doing in the area your first response to him was that you were in the area to pick up friends?. Wasn't that a lie, Mr Insert Name?."

Now the judge and the jury think you are a bull shitter and discounting everything you say after the answer to that question.

Bandaid

09-30-2008, 02:31 AM

Absolutely. Never lie. "I'm on personal business" is a good answer, said in a non-confrontational tone.

If you were suspected of a major crime, that wouldn't be enough. You'd probably be detained for questioning. But you're not; the cops are out busting hookers, or trying to. After a round or two of this, you'll probably be on your way. You'll never be worse off, IMO.

genius

09-30-2008, 03:46 AM

I'd hardly think so, BUT what they would do is give an investigating officer every reason to want to find something, anything, to stick it to you......At last some useful discussion. Thanks Thorn.

Here is a link to a lot of useful disussion on this matter based on a police stop that happened to me. I had BillyS post the story about "his friend" as the cops had my plate and license # and for all I knew they read this board and tied the post to me.

http://utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?p=499702#post499702

The actual text (I wrote it down right after the stop) and sent it to Billy for him to post.

"I had a rather close call with LE today. Was driving down one of the side
streets in Wyandanch 22nd street (I think) arout noon today(Sat). Came to
where it meets Brooklyn Ave at which I was going to make a left which would
bring me to Straight path in about 200 feet. I saw a cop car pass by going S
on Straight path so I signaled right instead and made a right on to Brooklyn
Ave with the intent of calling it a day and maybe stopping in at Show World
as Brooklyn Ave brings you right there. In my rear view mirror I saw that
the cop car made a U on Straight and the headed down Brooklyn Ave – there
was another car in front of him. I drove the speed limit, stopped at stop
signs etc. The car in front of the cops turned off and the cops continued on
Brooklyn Ave. I stopped on Little East Neck Rd and waited for a break in
traffic until I could cross to head for Show World (in the industrial park
there). The cops now were behind me. I crossed over and got maybe 100 yds
into the industrial park when they put on their lights and I pulled over.
Both cops came out and said to give them my license, insurance card,
registration which I did. One of them told me to get out of the car. I did.
The conversation went like this:
Cop: What were you doing on 22th street.
Me: I was coming from Kiss in Commack and going to Show World. I made a
wrong turn.
Cop: Really. What I don’t like is people lying to me. Listen, we are all
grown men here – if you were driving around looking for a little something
just say so. Just don’t lie to me.
Me: I told you what I was doing there.
Cop: When you opened your glove box I saw a pair of binoculars. Why do you
have them?
Me: I am a bird watcher. .There happen to be a lot of red tailed hawks
around the dump. They go after small rodents and its quite a sight to watch
them dive. (Funny part is this was the truth! )
Cop: Are you married.
Me: Yes.
Cop: Do you have anything you shouldn’t have in your car.
Me: No.
Cop: You ever been arrested.
Me: No.
Cop:I’m going to search you and your car. Now is the time to tell me if you
have anything you shouldn’t.
Me: I don’t.
One cop then goes over every square inch of my car while the other pats me
down. The cop finds two condoms in my pocket.
Cop: What are you doing with condoms in your pocket.
Me: I use them to prevent STD’s. Sometimes I get lucky and meet a girl that
likes me so I carry them with me.
Cop: Listen, I told you before that I don’t like people lying to me. We are
all grown up men here – if you were looking around for something just say
so.
Me: I Already told you why I was here.
The other cop is now done searching my car and comes over. He asks me about
the binoculars.
Cop2: You expect me to believe that you use those to watch birds.
Me: That’s why I have them in my car.
Cop2: Just make sure that’s all you use them for. Now I know the session is
over and they don’t have any reason to keep me.
Cop2: So you said you are married?
Me: Yes I am.
Me: Are we done now.?
Cop2: Where are you going now.
Me To Show World. I like to look at the magazines.
Me: Are we done now?
Cop: Nods yes.
I start my car, put on my seat belt, signal and drive away.

Totals elapsed time:: about 20 minutes."

SirF

09-30-2008, 02:55 PM

This really takes some balls. I remember last time I got a speeding ticket at 2am while slightly intoxicated. How can one train to keep calm when put on the spot. Especially when someone says: come on, give us something. We are not after you, we are after them. Not sure. If I saw a chance to get away with murder, as it was, what I would do.

Thorn

10-01-2008, 08:51 PM

Cop:I’m going to search you and your car. Now is the time to tell me if you have anything you shouldn’t.
Me: I don’t.
One cop then goes over every square inch of my car while the other pats me
down. The cop finds two condoms in my pocket.

The officers had a right to pat you down for weapons. They did not have the right to enter your pocket and retrive condoms because condoms don't feel like weapons when pass your hands over them in someones pocket.

Nor did they have the right to search your car.

While you were in it they had the right to check the area within your immediate control for weapons that might harm them, but the second you stepped from the vehicle none of the interior of the car was under your immediate control and was no longer subject to Terry stop procedures. The only way they could have searched it at that point is "plain view" [they saw drugs, a weapon, something else illegal right out in the open - in which case they could have seized THAT PARTICULAR thing], you giving your consent [which is what they would have said you did when they challenged you on searching and you didn't balk] or with a warrant to search your car.

Always remember that:

If the police ask you to leave your vehicle do so, with your hands in plain sight, locking the car behind you. They may ask you for your keys, politely say no. They will ask you if you are hiding something. You say no, but you know you aren't in the habit of letting anyone search your car or your home without the proper warrant(s) to do so.

Remember, ALWAYS be polite, unchallenging and nonthreatening, but don't be afraid to be succinct about how far you will let the police go when they stop you. If it even remotely appears you have given consent at the very least you have exposed yourself to a fight in a evidentiary hearing trying to block anything they may find to charge you with.

Waterclone

10-02-2008, 08:09 AM

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Unless they have probably cause, they can't search your car without your permission.

Thorn

10-02-2008, 03:07 PM

Unless they have probably cause, they can't search your car without your permission.

I posted the exceptions to that.

They can search the area in under your immediate control for weapons that might do harm to them. [Terry vs. Ohio, et al]

They can seize evidence in plain sight. [Plain View Doctrine]

They can, when it fits under the guidelines of fresh pursuit, enter your vehicle to arrest you if you have fled into it in an attempt to allude or escape capture then search the area immediately under your control incident to that arrest.

genius

10-02-2008, 03:51 PM

I posted the exceptions to that.

They can search the area in under your immediate control for weapons that might do harm to them. [Terry vs. Ohio, et al]

They can seize evidence in plain sight. [Plain View Doctrine]

They can, when it fits under the guidelines of fresh pursuit, enter your vehicle to arrest you if you have fled into it in an attempt to allude or escape capture then search the area immediately under your control incident to that arrest.Thank you Thorn for seriously addressing the issue.

When the cop said "I’m going to search you and your car." are you saying that unless I specifically objected by saying something like "I will not interfere with your search but you do not have my consent to search me or my car" (or some such), that I am implicitly consenting?

Also, I did think of saying just that but what went through my mind was that even though I carefully signaled when I made turns and stopped completely at stop signs while i saw the cops behind me, I did not want to piss them off such that they would have "witnessed me violating traffic laws". If I had something illegal in my car I certainly would have objected to the search - but I am a firm believer in only breaking one law at a time and had nothing in my car.

PS. I suspect that I was seen by a community watch group picking up a hooker on a side street the week before and reported to LE. I say this because my car was easily identifiable (color mainly) and the cops could not have seen my lily white face from the angle they 1st saw my car (they were driving perpendicular to me and could at most just see the back of my head from at least 50 yards away when they did a U turn on the main drag to come after me.) I was always very careful in that area and if LE drove past me once on the main drag I was done for the day and left the area - just as I did that day - although in that case they never even drove past me.

Monk

10-03-2008, 09:59 AM

How often do searches really get thrown out of court due to no probable cause existing prior to the search? (I'm not asking this rhetorically, I really don't know the answer.) My guess is that judges tend to defer to the police in most cases, unless the defense can conclusively prove otherwise. But that's just a guess.

genius

10-03-2008, 02:41 PM

Also, Thorn,

I suppose they can have some sort of "reasonable suspicion" that will make a search ok. If one says "no thanks officer" to a search, would they ever use that (indirectly) as an excuse for "suspicious behavior"? What I mean is the kind of "well if you've got nothing to hide" mentality.....In my case, other than a white face driving in a black area, there was no suspicious behavior. Even if someone had fingered me as to a certain colored car with a white guy in it picking up girls - just what would be the reason for a search - to find a hooker in my trunk? or perhaps under my car seat? in my glove box? in my pants pocket?

How often do searches really get thrown out of court due to no probable cause existing prior to the search? .....this really isn't the question - as I didn't want to go to court with the associated expenses even though it was a sure thing to get the sarch thrown out. Also - I knew there was nothing that they were going to find; when I pick up whores there is absolutely nothing in my car that is illegal.

franca

10-03-2008, 05:24 PM

Even if someone had fingered me as to a certain colored car with a white guy in it picking up girls - just what would be the reason for a search - to find a hooker in my trunk?

If they were on the lookout for a suspect who abducts streetwalking hookers, then yes, I imagine they would be looking for a hooker in the trunk.

genius

10-03-2008, 08:11 PM

If they were on the lookout for a suspect who abducts streetwalking hookers, then yes, I imagine they would be looking for a hooker in the trunk.And if that was true they would have opened the trunk, not seen a hooker in the trunk and closed the trunk and sent me on my way..

There would be no need to look inside my tool bag, look and feel around where the spare tire was, enter the car and look under the seats, in the console compartment, in the glove box, pull down the sun visors and check inside the little pockets there, check inside the pocket on the back of the seats, pull out the ash tray and dump out the contents, search my shirt and pants pockets, have me open my wallet and take out everything inside.

trigeek

10-04-2008, 02:10 AM

what do you think would have happened if I said "I'm not going to say anything until I see my lawyer".

Turn around you're busted.

genius

10-04-2008, 03:55 AM

......If the police ask you to leave your vehicle do so, with your hands in plain sight, locking the car behind you. They may ask you for your keys, politely say no. ......Do you literally say "no". Or do you say something like "I will give you my keys if you demand them but you will be taking them without my consent"?

Thorn

10-06-2008, 01:32 AM

In my case, other than a white face driving in a black area, there was no suspicious behavior. Even if someone had fingered me as to a certain colored car with a white guy in it picking up girls - just what would be the reason for a search - to find a hooker in my trunk? or perhaps under my car seat? in my glove box? in my pants pocket?

Never underestimate the ability of a well trained and experienced officer to take note of, record, and report behavior that will allow you to fall into the parameters where he can do what he does to enforce the law.

He is a professional and it is his job.

For instance: While on patrol on the 600 block of Main St I observed a White male operating a vehicle [insert description of vehicle] that I had seen previously in the area but know not to be from the neighborhood. During previous observation I saw the operator of said vehicle act in a way known to me, from my education and experience, to be typical of individuals seeking either sales of narcotics or sexual services [insert description of behavior]. The area of the 600 block of Main St is known to be frequented by individuals selling both narcotics and engaging in prostitution, as known to me by the criminal arrest history for the area and my own arrests in this neighborhood.

Seeing this vehicle in the area and once again acting in the manner I had witnessed before I had reasonable suspicion to believe the operator to be looking either for narcotics or prostitution services. I maneuvered into a position where I could stop the vehicle in question.

At that time I found said vehicle to be operated by [insert your name, address, date of birth, social security number] who was asked what he was doing in the area and failed to give a good accounting of himself, changing his story multiple times when interviewed [insert original story and contradiction], etc, etc, etc...

=====

As you can see I am building a step by step case on you rising through my original actions which explain my reasonable suspicion and, under the right circumstances, will run the ladder up to probable cause to make an arrest.

What YOU don't want ME to be able to do is climb that ladder. Every time you open your mouth you hand me [OK someone not retired so like I USE to be :) ] a potential rung to reach the next step.

There would be no need to look inside my tool bag, look and feel around where the spare tire was, enter the car and look under the seats, in the console compartment, in the glove box, pull down the sun visors and check inside the little pockets there, check inside the pocket on the back of the seats, pull out the ash tray and dump out the contents, search my shirt and pants pockets, have me open my wallet and take out everything inside.

They did that because they could.

They could because you let them.

Do you literally say "no". Or do you say something like "I will give you my keys if you demand them but you will be taking them without my consent"?

That would work.

It would work better if the officers involved are of the honest type and play by the rules [most of them, despite what you might think or hear] or if you carry a little digital recorder on you [like are part of many cellphones now days].

Thorn

10-06-2008, 01:36 AM

Thank you Thorn for seriously addressing the issue.

You are welcome.

When the cop said "I’m going to search you and your car." are you saying that unless I specifically objected by saying something like "I will not interfere with your search but you do not have my consent to search me or my car" (or some such), that I am implicitly consenting?

What I was saying is don't imply consent by acquiescence. While it might not hold up in court, it might hold up in court. :)

Be polite, but firm.

"No officer. While I certainly have nothing to hide I expect my full rights to be respected so if you are going to search my car I would like to see a warrant before that takes place. Thank you."

Also, Thorn,

I suppose they can have some sort of "reasonable suspicion" that will make a search ok. If one says "no thanks officer" to a search, would they ever use that (indirectly) as an excuse for "suspicious behavior"? What I mean is the kind of "well if you've got nothing to hide" mentality... I think you know what I mean even if I'm explaining it poorly...

Reasonable suspicion is good enough to make a stop. It may even be good enough to create a "Terry Stop" where the officer checks the suspicious person for weapons that might be of immediate threat to him/her.

It is NEVER good enough to search without consent. The consent, if done properly, should be done only upon waiving your rights via a signed document to that effect [most smart officers carry this document in their report clipboard or brief case].

All true, full, searches are ONLY conducted with probable cause. Reasonable suspicion does NOT meet the criteria to do a full search of an area or a person.

Full searches of a person are on warrant arrests, seach incident to a warrantless arrest [an arrest that takes place because the officer or complaining witness reported the crime withing a reasonable period of the suspects capture and a warrant has not yet been issued, but will be] and incidents of fresh pursuit of a fleeing suspect.

Searches of areas are only done in areas of immediate control [Terry vs Ohio] when there is reasonable suspicion to make a stop in the first place and incident to arrest. Seizures of contraband in plain view is legal and where there is "exigent circumstance" where an officer has right to believe that evidence is, or could easily be, destroyed. All other searches of property and areas requires a warrant, which again requires probable cause.

How often do searches really get thrown out of court due to no probable cause existing prior to the search? (I'm not asking this rhetorically, I really don't know the answer.) My guess is that judges tend to defer to the police in most cases, unless the defense can conclusively prove otherwise. But that's just a guess.

Quite often actually.

Officers who don't dot their "I's" and cross their "T's" find out just how quickly evidence can be tossed if proper form isn't adhered to.

There are motion hearings before every major trial and evidentiary motions are a favorite staple of defense attorneys.

Thorn

10-06-2008, 01:55 AM

It is my opinion that the vast majority of officers and detectives are fair mind and professional people doing a frequently lousy job that they get little credit for, and just as frequently lousy pay, to be doing.

You do what I and others are suggesting here not to protect you from officers in general, who aren't there to hurt you but to enforce the law, but to protect you from YOURSELF and on the very rare occasion the officer that does not play by the rules.

Left_the_scene

12-07-2008, 11:14 AM

Q: Do you know how fast were going? A: I was just taking a drive.

My pat answer for that is this: "no officer, not precisely. I was watching the road more than the speedometer."

Used it once when I was pulled over doing 110 (yep, triple digits) in a 55. Stupid. I was 22 at the time. (young and stupid) It was on i-95 in CT right by exit 18, which is where the state police barracks are. The cops reply was: "well, I was going 70, and you blew by me - so you were probably going about 85" "YES!" I thought. No radar fix.

In CT, cops have to clock you somehow. The court won't simply take their word that it looked like you were going to fast, they need to knwo a measured spped. Even though he could prove I was speeding, he did not know by how much. My roomate at the time had actually set that prec****t in court about a year before - he got written up doing 40 in a 25, and fought it. There was no radar fix - the cop had "guestimated" the speed. He beat the ticket, and word came down to LE...(I had a freind who was a trooper and he told me that around that time they had all been told by the "brass" - "no fix, no arrest. Otherwise it's a waste of time. It will get thrown out"

Gavvy Cravath

12-07-2008, 01:33 PM

Just came in here to welcome "Left the scene" as a new member. Wow, he's been here for years. Some time between posts, huh? Welcome back!

marcinny

12-07-2008, 01:36 PM

Yeah, he came here registered and then left the scene.

Left_the_scene

12-07-2008, 01:43 PM

Just came in here to welcome "Left the scene" as a new member. Wow, he's been here for years. Some time between posts, huh? Welcome back!

Married a provider and was strictly monogamous for years (as was she). Getting divorced now...(divorce has been dragging on almost 2 years now...brutal and expensive - $20K to the lawyers so far...BTW, the look on the judges face when the story of how we met came out was priceless...)

Lucky I could still remember my password, since the email I signed up with has been defunct for a while.

marcinny

12-07-2008, 01:48 PM

Quite a story. You should consider writing something about it here.

Left_the_scene

12-07-2008, 01:57 PM

Quite a story. You should consider writing something about it here.

I may. May not. Things said on the net can come back to haunt one later...

Divorce is still ongoing, kids involved, quite nasty, yet not. One minute she is playing dirty tricks (she called CPS and accused me of molesting our kids, which I have custody of...!) next minute she is all nice (she called CPS, recanted her accusation, then called me, crying, apologizing...)

We still talk 3-4 times a day.

Let's just say it's been a roller coaster that puts the Cyclone to shame.

marcinny

12-07-2008, 02:05 PM

Sorry for your difficulties. Of course, nothing too private or revealing. And yes, don't do anything until the legal process is done.

There were many debates here about dating providers, with their pros and cons (if you browse the archives) but you went further then most have done. You did not just date but married and had kids. You also completed a full circle, now with the divorce. It is natural that your story is of interest to many here.

TheMac

12-07-2008, 02:36 PM

Thorn, several years ago I was stopped by an officer in a sleepy suburban town on Long Island while walking in the middle of the night (on the way to my apartment) and was rapidly surrounded by LE. They questioned where I was coming from and why I was carrying soda. One young officer was particularly aggressive in his questioning and also patted me down. No assuming the position, but he poked around at my pockets and told me to remove whatever he felt. One of the things he felt was crinkly plastic, which turned out to be empty cellophane wrappers from cough drops. That pocket was empty otherwise, so there was not much chance that whatever was in there was an immediate threat to the officers, but I was asked to empty it (which revealed the wrappers). I answered all questions honestly since I knew that I'd done absolutely nothing wrong, have lived in the area for a long time, suspected some kind of mistaken identity, and had just come from a party where I'd been for a long time with a lot of people. I also asked a number of times why I was being questioned, and did not receive a response. I told them where I had just parked my car and one of the officers went to check it out. It was there and the hood was warm, so they decided that my true story was true. An older, more experienced officer than the one who was starting to piss me off thanked me for my cooperation and explained that an alarm had just gone off at a convenience store down the block and they suspected me because I was carrying soda. There are a few things I've wondered about since then, and reading this thread reminded me of them:

1. Should I have answered their questions? If not, what should I have said?
2. Did I have a right to know why I was being questioned?
3. If the crinkly plastic had been some kind of contraband instead of cough drop wrappers, what could the result have been? Could they have taken it and charged me? Taken it without charging me?

genius

12-10-2008, 05:03 PM

.....1. Should I have answered their questions? If not, what should I have said?
2. Did I have a right to know why I was being questioned?
3. If the crinkly plastic had been some kind of contraband instead of cough drop wrappers, what could the result have been? Could they have taken it and charged me? Taken it without charging me?1. Yes - sounds like hey had a legitamate reason to question you.
2. Yes - I would have respectfully asked until I got an answer.
3. Technically nothing unless they were arresting you for some legitamate reason. however you could spend a lot of time and money in the process of getting the evidence thrown out.

Disclaimer: genius is not a legal type. Other than some graduate level electives in law he has no legal training. What you did is exacly what (except for #2) what I would have done.

Thorn?

Traderdave

12-11-2008, 01:03 AM

genius

12-13-2008, 09:21 AM

When Saturday night live was first out, I went into a convenience store on Nostrand Avenue for some donuts. I was stopped by soem undercover cops asking if I had any smoke. I said no only chocloate donuts and even showed them the bag. I did not realize I had stumbled into a smoke shop selling tray and nickle bags.I believe is respectfully answering the question, and only the question, asked (after he shows you a badge) The full answer to the question they asked is "No." If he doesn't show you a badge the correct answer is : Excuse me - you are blocking my way to my car."

I understand these guys are just trying to do their job - this is not a case of say some guy, white, 5'9 wearing a red baseball cap and a blue jacket is sticking up convenience stores around midnight and I'm white, 5'9 wearing a red baseball cap and a blue jacket and its midnight.