Why are there no great brothels any more?

[Monk]

When I first started hobbying, many, many moons ago, there were several reliable brothels in Manhattan where you could get laid for a reasonable price and there was always a supply of decent providers from which to choose. Maybe not "A" list providers, but good quality for the price. I had quite a few memorable and satisfying sessions back then. In fact, I preferred it, because I would have a choice on the spot, which appealed to me at the time.

Since the onset of the Internet, most of these places have disappeared. It's relatively easy for a provider to post on CL, or set up a site, or play the boards, and market herself. Why bother putting up with the politics and bullshit that often accompanies the brothel workplace?

Yet, for some women, I have to imagine that working at a brothel would simply be much easier. You show up, put in your shift, and leave, in return for a steady stream of customers. Someone else deals with all the back-end busy-work (securing real estate, advertising, screening clients, booking appointments, etc.). Life is (relatively speaking) easy.

So what gives?

[JusAsexToy4women]

You can thank mayor Julliani and his quality of life campaign. I remember going to jackson heights and hitting 4 or 5 places in one night and maybe getting two or three quickies and still come out under $100

[Lou Grant]

They can't afford the rents. In the early nineties you could rent a decrepit walkup building on 2nd Ave in the 50's for around 5k a month. Today, that barely covers the rent of a 2 bdrm in the same area.

As to what Monk says about girls working in these places, I know a few girls who, too, would rather work for someone, even though they are giving away half, then put up with the bs of running it themselves. Sorry to say, but most don't have the smarts.

[donquixote04]

... So what gives?
You already answered your own question:
... Since the onset of the Internet, ... it's relatively easy for a provider to post on CL, or set up a site, or play the boards, and market herself. Why bother putting up with the politics and bullshit that often accompanies the brothel workplace? ...

[theword]

I think all of those things are in play:

It's expensive to set up a place, particularly in Manhattan.

It's easier to be an independent than it used to be.

If you set up and do well (particularly if you have a single incall location), sooner or later you will get busted and find yourself in jail with a bad picture of you on page 3 of the Post.

[Axe]

Seems to me, from reading posts by people like justlooking, that the high-end strip clubs are now the brothels in NYC. If you play them right, you can get serviced right in the club. Course, they aint cheap. When it gets too expensive to run an operation with low prices the service doesnt go away, it just goes upscale. Or, rather, all that remains is upscale...

[pervert7]

Can you give a hint of some of these upscale brothels? I am weary of strip clubs as your paying up the ass to get info..

[Axe]

Can you give a hint of some of these upscale brothels? I am weary of strip clubs as your paying up the ass to get info..

Hi, pervert7,

My point is that the high-end strip clubs are the upscale brothels.

[JusAsexToy4women]

Your better off with a high class service then to try and score at a club IMO. You may have to drop hundreds to thousands before you get some ... the girls who work in the clubs are more hustlers then providers.

[Axe]

Your better off with a high class service then to try and score at a club IMO. You may have to drop hundreds to thousands before you get some ... the girls who work in the clubs are more hustlers then providers.

You may be right if there are some high-class services that take walk-ins.

As has been discussed in other threads, the strippers are NOT the key to scoring ass at a high-end stripclub. You need to work the club managers, etc., who then direct you to a sure thing. Not one step in that process is cheap, however.

[masquerade]

As to what Monk says about girls working in these places, I know a few girls who, too, would rather work for someone, even though they are giving away half, then put up with the bs of running it themselves. Sorry to say, but most don't have the smarts.

Working independently off a site like CL is really tough most of the time even if you do "have the smarts", or at least it was in my experience. Securing a "date" with a guy was a multi-step process that was incredibly time consuming and frustrating - and of course a verbal confirmation from the guy never meant they would actually show up.

I would post an ad and then wait an hour or two. Some guys would immediately send their names and phone numbers, so I'd write them down and get ready to call. Others would ask more questions, so I'd have a group of guys I needed to send another round of *****s out to. Eventually, I'd have a list of four or five dudes to call that I'd decided didn't seem too creepy and might actually be serious about meeting up. I'd call, get voic*****s most of the time, then have to wait for callbacks. Sometimes I wouldn't hear back at all, sometimes they would just ask me so many questions that I became certain they were jacking off while we were on the phone. A lot of the time our schedules were so out of whack that setting up a meeting was impossible. It was fucking awful; a full-time job in itself. I can totally understand why a woman would prefer to split the profits with someone who would handle all that bullshit for them rather than deal with it all themselves.

That's what makes working in a high-end strip club brothel so fabulous. Not only do you just show up for your shift and do what you do while you're there, but you get paid a hell of a lot more than you would working indy, even with having to tip out everyone and paying an enormous house fee.

Of course, the strip club arrangements sort of takes the fun out of the whole thing if you ask me - but that's another story.

[Bandaid]

I'm surprised at how many guys like the strip clubs as brothels - you don't get anything like a brothel experience and pay a fortune for it. I hear guys talk about paying $150 or more for a 20 minute deal. Huh?

[justlooking]

No no. That's not it. At the upper-level strip clubs, you get an hour, just like a brothel. And the service is, like, MUCH better.

Of course, you pay through the nose for it.

[EddyBearNY]

Your better off with a high class service then to try and score at a club IMO. You may have to drop hundreds to thousands before you get some ... the girls who work in the clubs are more hustlers then providers.

You may drop thousands and get nothing more then an intense LD. Who do you complain to?

[EddyBearNY]

Working independently off a site like CL is really tough most of the time even if you do "have the smarts", or at least it was in my experience. Securing a "date" with a guy was a multi-step process that was incredibly time consuming and frustrating - and of course a verbal confirmation from the guy never meant they would actually show up.

I would post an ad and then wait an hour or two. Some guys would immediately send their names and phone numbers, so I'd write them down and get ready to call. Others would ask more questions, so I'd have a group of guys I needed to send another round of *****s out to. Eventually, I'd have a list of four or five dudes to call that I'd decided didn't seem too creepy and might actually be serious about meeting up. I'd call, get voic*****s most of the time, then have to wait for callbacks. Sometimes I wouldn't hear back at all, sometimes they would just ask me so many questions that I became certain they were jacking off while we were on the phone. A lot of the time our schedules were so out of whack that setting up a meeting was impossible. It was fucking awful; a full-time job in itself. I can totally understand why a woman would prefer to split the profits with someone who would handle all that bullshit for them rather than deal with it all themselves.

That's what makes working in a high-end strip club brothel so fabulous. Not only do you just show up for your shift and do what you do while you're there, but you get paid a hell of a lot more than you would working indy, even with having to tip out everyone and paying an enormous house fee.

Of course, the strip club arrangements sort of takes the fun out of the whole thing if you ask me - but that's another story.

There is no utopia!

[EddyBearNY]

When I first started hobbying, many, many moons ago, there were several reliable brothels in Manhattan where you could get laid for a reasonable price and there was always a supply of decent providers from which to choose. Maybe not "A" list providers, but good quality for the price. I had quite a few memorable and satisfying sessions back then. In fact, I preferred it, because I would have a choice on the spot, which appealed to me at the time.

Since the onset of the Internet, most of these places have disappeared. It's relatively easy for a provider to post on CL, or set up a site, or play the boards, and market herself. Why bother putting up with the politics and bullshit that often accompanies the brothel workplace?

Yet, for some women, I have to imagine that working at a brothel would simply be much easier. You show up, put in your shift, and leave, in return for a steady stream of customers. Someone else deals with all the back-end busy-work (securing real estate, advertising, screening clients, booking appointments, etc.). Life is (relatively speaking) easy.

So what gives?

Plenty of AMP's and they can be a lot of fun. Table shower, massage, happy ending.

There still are some high class brothels operating in NY. The real good ones have such a large client base, that they no longer need to advertise. There are others. Look and you will find.

[EddyBearNY]

You can thank mayor Julliani and his quality of life campaign. I remember going to jackson heights and hitting 4 or 5 places in one night and maybe getting two or three quickies and still come out under $100

The quickie spots are still in full force. They are no longer gringo friendly.

[Monk]

Plenty of AMP's and they can be a lot of fun. Table shower, massage, happy ending.

There still are some high class brothels operating in NY. The real good ones have such a large client base, that they no longer need to advertise. There are others. Look and you will find.

EB, you're among friends here. Specifically, which places are you talking about?

[justlooking]

You may drop thousands and get nothing more then an intense LD. Who do you complain to?

As Axe said, the key is to work through management, not the girls. If you didn't get what you expected, management would be responsible. But if you work through management, you always get what you expect. They make sure of it.

[justlooking]

Here, read this thread, which migrates to this point rather quickly:

http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29571

[justlooking]

Or, as one of the few (if not the only) sometime upscale stripper who posts here put it:

http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?p=644998&highlight=good#post644998

[Axe]

There still are some high class brothels operating in NY. The real good ones have such a large client base, that they no longer need to advertise. There are others. Look and you will find.

Then the premise of the original poster(s) is wrong...unless what they want are great, CHEAP, brothels. Right, guys?

[justlooking]

Or brothels you can actually get into.

[Monk]

Then the premise of the original poster(s) is wrong...unless what they want are great, CHEAP, brothels. Right, guys?

Look, there's no question that, in this country (and in this city) you can get just about anything you want if you're willing to spend a lot of money. It seems to me that the goal of most hobbyists is to get what they want without spending a lot. But that could just be me.

[theword]

There was a kind of place that used to be around that is difficult/impossible to find these days:

--Mid-range in price i.e. a good bit more than street action, quickie joints, or NJ dive bars, but less than the mainstream extras experience as described above, or most of the more expensive independents. It seems like the low end and high end have survived at the expense of the middle, in pricing terms.

--An incall with a good selection, with some variety and generally much better quality than the low-end options. Incall with a selection is just a different experience than outcall, just as a brothel is a different scene than a UG club.

--Fairly easy to find and get into, with standard prices. The sex business is a lot more paranoid than it used to be.

These places used to advertise in the back of the Voice, NY Press, and Screw...you could call up and get in if you sounded reasonable...you could ask who was working and there would be some options; you could call a few places until you found someone to your liking. While there was variation in quality, you pretty much got to do what you were expecting to do, and didn't have to know anyone to get in, or worry about being ripped off.

I guess Julie's was the last of this kind of place, but there used to be a lot of them; people still ask about them in the "Remember When?" threads here.

[Thorn]

You may drop thousands and get nothing more then an intense LD. Who do you complain to?

Not if you know what you are doing.

Experienced VIP mongers have the deal sealed and know the amount BEFORE they enter the room.

You NEVER negotiate terms with a dancer who has her hands on your zipper. Its too late at that point. How do you think straight when you have already payed out something like $400+ for the VIP for the hour and all the blood is racing to your dick?

Its like being short stacked in Texas Hold'em if you got 2/3's of your chips in the pot already and a guy goes all in on you committing your final 1/3 on the turn. You are going to call. At that point you have to. She'll likely get anything she asks for, even if it is unreasonable.

In S-C's with high end VIP's you get to know the management, at the very least the bartenders, take care of them well, let them know your tastes and steer you to the dancer, make the deal before you go into the room, than enjoy yourself.

[Axe]

Look, there's no question that, in this country (and in this city) you can get just about anything you want if you're willing to spend a lot of money. It seems to me that the goal of most hobbyists is to get what they want without spending a lot. But that could just be me.

It isnt just you. I'm something of a cheapskate myself.

But the title of this thread is NOT: "Why are there no great, cheap, brothels anymore?"

[justlooking]

Not if you know what you are doing.

Experienced VIP mongers have the deal sealed and know the amount BEFORE they enter the room.

You NEVER negotiate terms with a dancer who has her hands on your zipper. Its too late at that point. How do you think straight when you have already payed out something like $400+ for the VIP for the hour and all the blood is racing to your dick?

Its like being short stacked in Texas Hold'em if you got 2/3's of your chips in the pot already and a guy goes all in on you committing your final 1/3 on the turn. You are going to call. At that point you have to. She'll likely get anything she asks for, even if it is unreasonable.

In S-C's with high end VIP's you get to know the management, at the very least the bartenders, take care of them well, let them know your tastes and steer you to the dancer, make the deal before you go into the room, than enjoy yourself.

I'd say something slightly different.

At high-end NYC clubs, you do this through the management. You don't "negotiate" AT ALL with the dancer. You don't discuss services AT ALL. Management is responsible for getting you what you want. Management has to make it up to you if somehow they don't.

[Axe]

When it gets too expensive to run an operation with low prices the service doesnt go away, it just goes upscale. Or, rather, all that remains is upscale...

IMHO this explains why there are no great, cheap, brothels anymore; but let me expand on this.

Whenever there is LE pressure (or economic pressure, for that matter) on illegal businesses, the first thing to go will be the cheap stuff. Throw in the changing demographics in the large US cities (specifically, the large proportion of non-english speaking providers at the low end of the cost scale) and that puts the last nail in the coffin as far as people like you and I are concerned.

[Monk]

I'd say something slightly different.

At high-end NYC clubs, you do this through the management. You don't "negotiate" AT ALL with the dancer. You don't discuss services AT ALL. Management is responsible for getting you what you want. Management has to make it up to you if somehow they don't.

At that point, what's the difference between pimping and running a brothel?

(Maybe the distinction was always subtle and I'm just splitting hairs here. But, with most of the brothels I've been to, you make an appointment, there's a choice of girls, you negotiate a price with the Madam, pay her, and then, all too often, get hussled by the girl for more money. With a pimp, you usually tell him/her what you're looking for and he/she takes care of everything.)

[justlooking]

At that point, what's the difference between pimping and running a brothel?

(Maybe the distinction was always subtle and I'm just splitting hairs here. But, with most of the brothels I've been to, you make an appointment, there's a choice of girls, you negotiate a price with the Madam, pay her, and then, all too often, get hussled by the girl for more money. With a pimp, you usually tell him/her what you're looking for and he/she takes care of everything.)

I'm not sure I understand the question. What IS the difference?

(Although by your definition, it's more like a brothel than a pimp.)

(And note, in case it isn't clear [I'm not sure], when I say "management", I mean club management.)

[justlooking]

On the exchange between Monk and Axe, I think the point is that the places Eddy is talking about are now so exclusive that, unless you already have entry, they're as good as nonexistent.

The point about brothels used to be that you could go to them.

[Axe]

Ahh, ok, thanks, JL.

[Monk]

(And note, in case it isn't clear [I'm not sure], when I say "management", I mean club management.)

I couldn't imagine what else you could have meant. Another way to refer to "management" is "the boss". (And another way to refer to "the boss" could be "the pimp".)

[justlooking]

You know, at underground clubs there are often guys lurking about who aren't affiliated with the venue but who run certain girls there.

[masquerade]

You know, at underground clubs there are often guys lurking about who aren't affiliated with the venue but who run certain girls there.

I was approached by a girl at asscon who tried to recruite me to work with/for her pimp. He was standing nearby eyeballing me. I was like, "huh?! why in the world would I want to do that?" (well, I didn't literally say that.... but, ya know.) I don't understand the benefits of a pimp/ho relationship for a woman at all.

[EddyBearNY]

I don't understand the benefits of a pimp/ho relationship for a woman at all..

A steady supply.

[EddyBearNY]

EB, you're among friends here. Specifically, which places are you talking about?

Monk - You have know a steady client to get in, also they protect there clients, if you are waiting for a girl, and a client comes up, they give you something to cover your face.

The spots are not cheap. Have you checked New York Mag, or the New Yorker?

[Thorn]

I'd say something slightly different.

At high-end NYC clubs, you do this through the management. You don't "negotiate" AT ALL with the dancer. You don't discuss services AT ALL. Management is responsible for getting you what you want. Management has to make it up to you if somehow they don't.

Exactly. Totally agreed.

Now, when you are dealing in the lower rent area like GGR, VIP's, and others, management will point you at the gal but most of the time you are going to be doing the negotiating yourself. Other than that, same rules apply.

[Thorn]

At that point, what's the difference between pimping and running a brothel?

(Maybe the distinction was always subtle and I'm just splitting hairs here. But, with most of the brothels I've been to, you make an appointment, there's a choice of girls, you negotiate a price with the Madam, pay her, and then, all too often, get hussled by the girl for more money. With a pimp, you usually tell him/her what you're looking for and he/she takes care of everything.)

Theoretically the difference between a strip-club and a pimp is that pimps set the standards for the product. Usually by coercion. Management acts as agents for sub-contractors who set their own standards of comportment. The "agents" match the client to the provider, and take an agent's cut for facilitating the deal.

That is the theory. In practicality it totally depends on the place and there may be little difference at all.

[justlooking]

Exactly. Totally agreed.

Now, when you are dealing in the lower rent area like GGR, VIP's, and others, management will point you at the gal but most of the time you are going to be doing the negotiating yourself. Other than that, same rules apply.

Of course. I knew you know this. Just wanted to make sure it was clear to all readers.

[EddyBearNY]

Theoretically the difference between a strip-club and a pimp is that pimps set the standards for the product. Usually by coercion. Management acts as agents for sub-contractors who set their own standards of comportment. The "agents" match the client to the provider, and take an agent's cut for facilitating the deal.

That is the theory. In practicality it totally depends on the place and there may be little difference at all.

You left out the wire hanger, and the girls right to come and go, or change "pimps" clubs as they please.

[Thorn]

You left out the wire hanger, and the girls right to come and go, or change "pimps" clubs as they please.


Unfortunately I know all about 'pimp sticks', etc.

We were discussing differences as effects customers: service, pricing, negotiation models, so I kept it to that.

[Monk]

When you're as obsessed with getting whacked as we are, being unreasonably upset about JAG's corruption and ultimate demise wouldn't be the first time that our priorities were out of whack!