Need advice in regards to stripper friend?????

[Johnny0114]

Hello Everyone. I have been a long time member of UG since mid 03. I never posted much because I chose a very stupid username. If there is anyone in my personal life that frequents this site, they would automatically know it was me by that username. Because of this, I can no longer use that name. I am in a situation and I need some advice. I met someone recently (week before last Thursday). Here is some background info. She is a stripper and I met her at a club in the tri-state area. Her name or the club name is irrelevant.

I went to the club that night to relax and have a couple of beers and unwind. I got to the club about the time the dancers were changing shifts. She approached me and started a conversation. She’s Hispanic and quite a looker. I don’t know her measurements but even in a room full of beautiful women, she still stands out. She did have breast implants but that is not a turnoff for me. I had a feeling right away that they were fake because a girl with such a small frame (She’s about 5’4, flat stomach, nice ass) her chest was not proportionate to the rest of her body. They look really good on her though.

[Johnny0114]

I don’t know what it was but we seem to have some type of a connection. Nothing personal against strippers but it is their job to provide a “fantasy-type” environment and get as much money out of you as possible, so I have a hard time believing anything they do or say. She never asked for a dance, tip or anything and I found it odd. I brought us a couple of drinks and we had a pleasant conversation that lasted a couple of hours. We spoke about just about everything from family to life in general. She told me she was single and did not have any children. I don’t know why but for some asinine reason, I told her that I was also single. I didn’t think anything of it at the time. I know she was at the club to work so I eventually got a few lap dances from her.

The lap dance area was semi-private. It was separated from the rest of the club and when we went in, there was no one else there. There were no cameras in the lap-dance area but one of the bouncers kept peeking in every now and again. It didn’t stop us from messing around. It was nothing serious, just touching and making out for the most part. After a few songs, we went back to the bar area and continued our conversation. At some point during our conversation, I let her know that I wanted to see her outside of work and if it would be possible. She replied that she’s doesn’t really do that often but for me she would make an exception. She told me how much it would be for a date.

[Johnny0114]

At this point I really wanted her so price was not an issue. We exchanged phone numbers and I told her I would try to see her that weekend. At that point I told her that she should go and mingle with other patrons (as I said earlier, she is at work) and we’ll catch up later. By the way, that day was her 2nd day working at that club. (On a side note: Why does an ATF stripper get all worked up and catty if she sees you talking to another stripper. It doesn’t make any sense to me, it’s like they feel that you are theirs when you’re there). She would come every now and again to see how I was doing. It was getting late and I told her I was about to leave and she asked me if I wanted to hang out that night cause she was about to leave soon herself.

I waited the extra 45 minutes for her to get off work. She was famished so we went to a nice diner in the city and go a bite to eat. We spent a couple more hours eating and getting to know each other. She wanted to hang out all night but I had to get to work. I eventually took her home. We made out a bit in front of her apartment and then I left. I didn’t call her on Friday because I was extremely busy and she had told me she was going to see her family that evening for Good Friday. I called her on Saturday but she was sleeping when I called. Her cousin picked up the phone who also works in the same club. I left her a message but she never received it. I didn’t call her on Sunday. (I failed to mention that although I am not married, I live with my girlfriend. We’ve been together for about 6 years. This is our 2nd attempt at living together. We’re basically engaged practically almost married). It’s not like I can just get away whenever I want.

[Johnny0114]

I finally got in touch with her on Monday and we made plans to meet that evening. I picked her up from her house and we went to a nice restaurant. We ate and had a few drinks. We were so comfortable with each other. In a sense, it felt like we knew each other for awhile. After we ate, we were talking about what we should do next. We could not go to her place because she did not want her cousin in her business plus her cousin has a couple of kids that live there. She told me if we went to her house that we would have to behave and stay in the living room. I didn’t like that idea. She asked about going to my house and for obvious reasons, I didn’t like that idea either. I told her that I live very far from where we were (which was true but not the real reason). We decided to go to a motel in the area.

When we got to the hotel, I wanted to find out exactly what the damage was going to be. She didn’t want to discuss money at all as if it was going to ruin the evening. She told me it did not matter to her and that she didn’t want to haggle over the price. I got a room and we spoke for awhile before getting down to business. During our conversation she asked me again if I had a girlfriend, and like an idiot, I said no again. She told me it was cool with her and that I can tell her the truth. I never did though. She was 99% sure that I had a girlfriend so naturally she didn’t believe me. When we finally got down to business, she was so passionate. It was unbelievable, it was everything a GFE should be with all common acronyms that are supposed to be associated with GFE. But it went beyond acronyms though; it felt exactly like the real thing. I’ve been with pros before that advertise GFE and some of them do a real good job at trying to convince you, but most of them if you have seen them on more than one occasion, even with all the acronyms involved it is so scripted. This type of passion cannot be faked. At least I don't think so?? Who knows, I could be wrong.

[Johnny0114]

After we were done, we stayed in bed and parlayed some more. Before we left the hotel, she did a dirty trick on me just to see my reaction. I really did not like what she did. As were getting ready to leave, we freshened up and after that she was putting herself together (makeup, comb, perfume, etc) right before we left she put perfume on her hands, came over next to me and kissed me. After she kissed me, she rubbed her hands all over my face and neck with the perfume just so she can see my reaction. She told me “you said you don’t have a girlfriend so it should not matter.” I had to laugh. The perfume was sweet but strong. I had another headache to deal with before I got home but it was my fault. I should have been honest with her from the beginning.

After that day we speak on the phone all the time. She calls me at least once a day and we shoot the breeze. The next time we went out was a couple of days later and everything was great once again. I like her a lot and it seems like she feels the same way. Every time we speak on the phone and see each other she is a lot more open with me about herself and I reciprocate In kind. In so aspects I am very jaded, so I began to think that this all an act. The last time I saw her, I decided to put her to the test. I told her that I didn’t have any money to pay her when we got to the hotel and she told me it was ok. We went to the hotel and had got down to business. She was in my arms while we rested and parlayed some more.

[Johnny0114]

I am starting to feel bad about this whole situation. I am starting to believe that she really does have feelings for me. I like her too, but I want to be honest with her and let her know the truth. I have let this linger on for too long. I am in a very committed (yes, I know the irony) relationship and have no intentions of leaving my fiancé. I also don’t need anything or anyone jeopardizing my relationship. I have messed around on my fiancé a good amount of times and I have always been honest with the other women. Since this relationship started off as a P4P relationship, I didn’t think anything like this would happen. I just need some advice on how to tell her the truth gently. I do care for her and I don’t want to continue this relationship this way and let this situation spiral out of control. Anyone have any advice?

P.S. Oh I forgot to mention that at the end of the last night I saw her, I did pay her when I took her home. I gave her the money because I know she really does need the money. She told me she would take it as a gift, but not as payment for us being together. Any advice?????

[justlooking]

Tell her the truth.

This isn't even hard.

[Axe]

Tell her the truth.

This isn't even hard.


Good advice.

It wont be as hard for her to hear as he thinks it will.

[brykster]

Any advice?????

yeah, don't get married. you don't sound capable of controlling your self and you will get caught. then you'll have to give her half of everything. as for the stripper, she plays the game well; but more than likely, she IS playing the game. if she is dancer and a top one at that, she may need money; but it doesn't necessarily need to be yours. taking your money no matter what the reason tells me it's P4P in her mind...regardless of what she says. therefore, you shouldn't be too concerned with what you tell her.

tell her you feel she's developing feelings and you feel you need to be honest (and pray she doesn't have borderline personality disorder.) that's all. providers are used to being lied to. if you aren't trying to have a relationship with her than you shouldn't care about how she reacts or how she feels. your concern here tells me you are "a nice guy" (as i am) and may be making more out things than they are (as i've been known to do.) but dude, seriously, you really need to reconsider getting married if you are cheating already...IMHO.

[benisbig]

Never admit to the lie. Keep the lie going. Get as many free/low cost sessions as you can.

You don't want her to go all Glen Close on you and your girl friend.

[brykster]

oh yeah...and change your screen name. it's that easy.

[justlooking]

yeah, don't get married. you don't sound capable of controlling your self and you will get caught. then you'll have to give her half of everything. as for the stripper, she plays the game well; but more than likely, she IS playing the game. if she is dancer and a top one at that, she may need money; but it doesn't necessarily need to be yours. taking your money no matter what the reason tells me it's P4P in her mind...regardless of what she says. therefore, you shouldn't be too concerned with what you tell her.

tell her you feel she's developing feelings and you feel you need to be honest (and pray she doesn't have borderline personality disorder.) that's all. providers are used to being lied to. if you aren't trying to have a relationship with her than you shouldn't care about how she reacts or how she feels. your concern here tells me you are "a nice guy" (as i am) and may be making more out things than they are (as i've been known to do.) but dude, seriously, you really need to reconsider getting married if you are cheating already...IMHO.

EXACTLY right.

[justlooking]

oh yeah...and change your screen name. it's that easy.

I mean, shit. I only know one guy whose last name is 0114. I can't believe he's posting about this here.

[justlooking]

I want to add one thing: we've already seen a comment to the effect of, "she's playing you; if you pay her it's p4p." And I'm sure we'll see more.

I just want to say that, IMO, if you're satisfied with the amount you're paying her (and I assume and hope it isn't too much), then I don't see how you're being played. If you're satisfied, you're getting good value for your money.

My assumption is that you aren't getting too emotionally involved yourself. That's why I can't see why you'd want to lie to her about your having a fiance.

[JusAsexToy4women]

I have yet to see a monger change his spots.......they all come back to the hobby eventually

[donquixote04]

I mean, shit. I only know one guy whose last name is 0114. I can't believe he's posting about this here.

Hmmm. He already HAS changed his screen name. I mean "Johnny0114" IS the new name. After all, he has 6 posts at the beginning of this thread, and "Johnny0114" has only 6 posts, and "Johnny0114" joined ug this month (i.e., today). Could it be any clearer?

[justlooking]

Yes. I know that.

[justlooking]

Was I somehow not sarcastic enough?

[billyS]

Did you do her bareback?

[openheads]

I had a similar situation a while a go. Met her at a SC. We just talked about regular topics (nothing sexual). We had many similarities ect. She did not ask for tips. Got her # & called her later that week. Went out, nothing expensive.
I made sure never to bring up anything monetary, she didn't either. So it went like that. She stopped calling B/C she found out I know another person who frequents said establishment (she apperantly also had a fling with this dude, not for pay, WTF?) & that was that.
I think you should have not gotten the initial lap dance. Why even introduce the concept of paying for her time????? Don't even bring money into the equation. If thats what she is after, she will let you know. On the flip side, if there is chemistry & GFE (all reasonably priced of course), why not????. Even if she wants $ but the experience is good, go for it. It beats sex with no chemistry. I am by no means a veteran in this game, but I know it is a wise course of action to stay emotionally guarded.

[brykster]

I mean, shit. I only know one guy whose last name is 0114. I can't believe he's posting about this here.

you are too funny!!!!

[Johnny0114]

Did you do her bareback?


No, I did not do her bareback. The thought alone is insane to me. I don't mind paying her for sex. I actually prefer it that way. I am not looking for any emotional attachment. Just someone I can hang out with once in awhile and have fun with. The last time we hung out she told me didn’t have to pay her. In fact, all three times I have discussed money with her; she was not comfortable with it. I just don’t want to get any lines blurred. I am also growing more and more uncomfortable with her calling me everyday. There was one occasion she called me and my fiancé was right there. I didn’t pick up the phone and she asked me who it was. I told her it was a friend and I didn’t pick up cause I was driving at the time and did not have my earpiece. I don’t know. I’m just going to take ya’ll advice and tell her the truth.

[dan1999]

The way I see it, you are getting some good action. You are willing to pay her rate for it so far.

I also sense that she is going to try to play you for something big if she can get away with it.

Oh yeah, remember this excellent piece of ass is a full fledged whore at all times and you will be better prepared for whatever surprise she leads you into.

As far as your fiance goes, that will probably turn into a hellish situation sooner or later if you keep this up.



No, I did not do her bareback. The thought alone is insane to me. I don't mind paying her for sex. I actually prefer it that way. I am not looking for any emotional attachment. Just someone I can hang out with once in awhile and have fun with. The last time we hung out she told me didn’t have to pay her. In fact, all three times I have discussed money with her; she was not comfortable with it. I just don’t want to get any lines blurred. I am also growing more and more uncomfortable with her calling me everyday. There was one occasion she called me and my fiancé was right there. I didn’t pick up the phone and she asked me who it was. I told her it was a friend and I didn’t pick up cause I was driving at the time and did not have my earpiece. I don’t know. I’m just going to take ya’ll advice and tell her the truth.

[Johnny0114]

yeah, don't get married. you don't sound capable of controlling your self and you will get caught. then you'll have to give her half of everything. as for the stripper, she plays the game well; but more than likely, she IS playing the game. if she is dancer and a top one at that, she may need money; but it doesn't necessarily need to be yours. taking your money no matter what the reason tells me it's P4P in her mind...regardless of what she says. therefore, you shouldn't be too concerned with what you tell her.

tell her you feel she's developing feelings and you feel you need to be honest (and pray she doesn't have borderline personality disorder.) that's all. providers are used to being lied to. if you aren't trying to have a relationship with her than you shouldn't care about how she reacts or how she feels. your concern here tells me you are "a nice guy" (as i am) and may be making more out things than they are (as i've been known to do.) but dude, seriously, you really need to reconsider getting married if you are cheating already...IMHO.


I want to get married. I know all the risks involved, but I love her with all my heart. It just sometimes I just need a bit of variety. I'm a selfish bastard, yes I know. I also want to have children someday as well.

[Johnny0114]

The way I see it, you are getting some good action. You are willing to pay her rate for it so far.

I also sense that she is going to try to play you for something big if she can get away with it.

Oh yeah, remember this excellent piece of ass is a full fledged whore at all times and you will be better prepared for whatever surprise she leads you into.

As far as your fiance goes, that will probably turn into a hellish situation sooner or later if you keep this up.

I thought I was being too jaded but I think you're right Dan. I think she's might just be trying to score one big pay day. If this turns out to be true, then she's going to be mighty disappointed.

[plat122]

Hate to be the asshole...but anything you hear in a strip club is bullshit. Anything a dancer tells you ...anything a customer tells you....anything you read on a board....anything a bartender tells you is all bullshit. Until you can verify it everything is shit.

If you are on the level than you fell for a stripper. I have no idea what your wife to be does...a lawyer...admin assistant...teacher....policewomen. I don't know but I guess she is not giving head to 5 to 20 guys a day. If your girl works in a good joint than she is rubbing her butt (assterbation) all over guys laps as to make them bust a nut. If she works in a really good place than she is fucking or sucking, and if it is really really place good she is fucking AND sucking.

Go back to your future wife...and who ever said get the most low priced GFE while you can gave the best advice.

You don't leave money or your stash around a junkie....you don't talk about tax deductions with an IRS agent...you don't leave your kid with your priest...and you don't get into a relationship with a stripper...who make her living off making guys think she love them.

Get what you can get and keep your prospective about things.

[brykster]

I thought I was being too jaded but I think you're right Dan. I think she's might just be trying to score one big pay day. If this turns out to be true, then she's going to be mighty disappointed.

if you feel that way, then that is probably what it is. generally trust your intuitions.

[brykster]

anything you read on a board....is shit.

HAY!!!!! : )

[Escort_King]

I thought I was being too jaded but I think you're right Dan. I think she's might just be trying to score one big pay day. If this turns out to be true, then she's going to be mighty disappointed.

sometimes you connect with a provider... have had a few that stopped charging me.... then it was usually after I had taken them to dinner and drinks and ended up back at my place... never offered and they did not ask.... so I had to use a different service and wine, dine and fuck them on off days... never asked them to stop

[Escort_King]

Hate to be the asshole...but anything you hear in a strip club is bullshit. Anything a dancer tells you ...anything a customer tells you....anything you read on a board....anything a bartender tells you is all bullshit. Until you can verify it everything is shit.

If you are on the level than you fell for a stripper. I have no idea what your wife to be does...a lawyer...admin assistant...teacher....policewomen. I don't know but I guess she is not giving head to 5 to 20 guys a day. If your girl works in a good joint than she is rubbing her butt (assterbation) all over guys laps as to make them bust a nut. If she works in a really good place than she is fucking or sucking, and if it is really really place good she is fucking AND sucking.

Go back to your future wife...and who ever said get the most low priced GFE while you can gave the best advice.

You don't leave money or your stash around a junkie....you don't talk about tax deductions with an IRS agent...you don't leave your kid with your priest...and you don't get into a relationship with a stripper...who make her living off making guys think she love them.

Get what you can get and keep your prospective about things.

cold.... never heard of the whore with the heart of gold

[openheads]

^^^^^^^^^ Few & far between!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[plat122]

cold.... never heard of the whore with the heart of gold

Yes...Typically crazy, insane, trouble making whores.

[masquerade]

umm.... I have a question for you -

what makes you think you're so special that it's ok to be playing two women at the same time? If the fact that you can't be faithful to the woman you intend to marry before your wedding day isn't bad enough, you're also lying to the stripper you just started fucking on the side for some strange reason. (presumably because you want to maintain the illusion of availability with her.) What's the point, man? I have news for you - you've already sufficiently "blurred the lines". Continuing to date this girl after she's turned down the money you've offerred her for sex and then continuing to lie to her about your relationship status is as good as saying you're genuinely interested in pursuing things with her, IMO.

You guys can say anything you like about strippers/whores/whatever... but she's been fucking him for free and is affectionate towards him... and her behavior clearly demonstrates that she DOES give a shit whether or not he has a gf. He's done nothing but reinforce her belief; what is she supposed to think?? Strippers do not hold out this long for a payday. She's emotionally vested in this whole thing, and it's obvious.

If you simply wanted to have fun with someone with no strings attached, then you would have been upfront with her from the get-go. I think you're very selfish, pure and simple. You like the power that comes from knowing people have more emotional attachment to you than you do to them. That's why you've maintained this silly, unecessary illusion of single-dom with her.

As far as I'm concerned, you deserve to have the whole thing blow up in your face at this point. You can't treat people this way and expect to get off scott free. TELL HER THE TRUTH.

[justme]

Do you want to get caught cheating? Because you're acting like a guy who wants to get caught.

I tend to agree with masquerade. This woman isn't setting you up for a long con. In my experience, sex-workers can be fairly cynical about personal relationships. They are fairly distrustful and doubt sincerity. That said, they're people, too, and often need a human connection. So when you do finally manage to gain their trust, it's like they're even more vulnerable than non-sex-workers. It's like they have a fairly elaborate emotional outer defense, but not much else whereas most (many?) women have a more gradual emotional filtering.

The most lonely place in the world is a strip club. PL's try to fill that loneliness with sex and the fake esteem of a stripper. Strippers fill it with money and the fake esteem of a PL. But in all that loneliness, occasionally people look for something else.

We hear all about the PL's getting screwed, but the opposite happens, too (how do you think strippers get to be so cynical?).

Anyways, I think you've got a woman who probably is fairly ambivalent about her relationship with you. She likes you, and she's probably a little emotionally attached. On the other hand, your relationship is rooted in P4P (established in the club... before you ever had sex) and she clearly doesn't trust you.

If she does get emotionally attached, though, and finds out you're lying. Well... hell hath no fury.

So I think your best bet is to come clean now before it gets to the point where she'll want your blood. You might lose her (which is the only thing that's got you lying to begin with). But it's a lot better to lose her than to maintain two lies without a co conspirator. And if you can't keep her with the truth, you probably don't deserve to keep her.

As I see it you're on a course in which you really hurt this woman. I think if you don't change tracks you're going to hurt her so badly that she looks to hurt you. And I really hate to think that your fiance, whose ostensibly done nothing wrong, would have to pay for that.

*************************

You've made up your mind regarding your fiance and I respect that. Still, I think it might help you to think about the following: Some prostitutes won't kiss. They claim they reserve that level of intimacy for people they care about. Does it seem odd to you've saved lying for the person that's supposed to mean the most to you?

I mean, if you can't keep her with the truth...

[donquixote04]

Sometimes justme can be way harsh. Usually very insightful. I guess sometimes the truth is just way harsh.

[justlooking]

What's ironic is that in just the last couple of days we've seen one guy boast about going to strip clubs and pretending to be a "shy guy" so he can play strippers into having sex with him, and this guy playing this stripper by denying he has an SO when she clearly appears to care about it -- and yet most of what you see in this thread (and on this board) is warnings about how sex workers are these inhuman bloodsuckers who don't have any goal but to hurt guys and take their money.

Something's missing.

[Johnny0114]

You guys are acting like I went out of my way to make this woman fall for me as if I am some heartless person. I think the majority of the people here are either married/attached. My point is “people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.” I never thought for one second that this would have gone this far. I am not saying that a stripper is not a human being or doesn’t have feelings. I am just being cautious. I don’t know; maybe I’m just too jaded. I intend on telling her the truth some time this week. On second thought, her birthday is this week, so I’ll wait till next week to tell her the truth.

[masquerade]

You guys are acting like I went out of my way to make this woman fall for me as if I am some heartless person. I think the majority of the people here are either married/attached. My point is “people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.” I never thought for one second that this would have gone this far. I am not saying that a stripper is not a human being or doesn’t have feelings. I am just being cautious. I don’t know; maybe I’m just too jaded. I intend on telling her the truth some time this week. On second thought, her birthday is this week, so I’ll wait till next week to tell her the truth.

Johnny, you may want to pop over to the "Does knowledge of her SO ruin it for you?" thread and do a quick read through. There are several points made over there in regards to this same situation but in the reverse. (strippers leading customers on in order to get money out of them, often times with little or no regard for ethics or their emotions) I don't see how the situation you're describing here is any different. You're using this poor woman to your advantage. It's become clear that she views the relationship as more than business, and instead of taking the responsibility of being direct with her you've done nothing but encourage her misconceptions by lying to her.
I don't believe you when you say you didn't expect things to go this far. It seems like you've orchestrated everything with the direct intent of getting things to the point they're at.

Sure, there are plenty of "inhuman bloodsuckers" out there in the world of stripping, but the bottom line is that she's a human being who has feelings and is going to end up getting hurt. The sooner you set her straight about all of this the better.

[plat122]

Masquerage I think you should be a bit more grounded. Johnny should have manned-up and admitted that he had a girlfriend from the start. I don't think it would have changed the outcome of his first encounter with her, but he would not be in this position - if in fact what he says is true. He has to consider that he can loses the woman he wants to marry for a fling. Also, I don't buy that " stippers will not wait this long for the big payday" bull..because they will, anyone, man or woman, is capable of doing that. From personal experience women will fuck around just as much as men will...they just have to play by different rules. And in no way should Johnny forget that she is a stripper. She is not a librarian. I know a lot of women who love "bad boys" and don't understand why they get burned.

[brykster]

You guys are acting like I went out of my way to make this woman fall for me as if I am some heartless person. I think the majority of the people here are either married/attached. My point is “people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.”

i don't think MOST are attached. i certainly am not...but then again, neither are you. which is why i don't understand why you want to be. earlier you boasted about FREQUENTLY cheating on your fiance. yes, i'm being judgmental; but i find that disgusting. it's one thing to have been married for years and grow bored, searching for a new thrill. that's fine...you stay together for financial reasons, for the kids...whatever. but to start out that way is a little ridiculous. do you intend to keep cheating throughout you marriage?

[brykster]

the irony of this entire thread is staggering. here everyone is giving you advice about the other woman. M. is going on about the poor stripper you are playing games with...well how about the fiance you've been fucking over for years? i think she aught to be the one you tell....and maybe consider getting some counseling if you want a marriage to work....just my opinion.

[brykster]

can ya tell i've been cheated on?

[masquerade]

the irony of this entire thread is staggering. here everyone is giving you advice about the other woman. M. is going on about the poor stripper you are playing games with...well how about the fiance you've been fucking over for years? i think she aught to be the one you tell....and maybe consider getting some counseling if you want a marriage to work....just my opinion.

I mean, I think it goes without saying that the fiance's getting the worst end of the whole deal. I started talking about this topic in another thread just recently. I would agree with you that a marriage seems like a terrible idea for him at this point. The only reason I was focusing on the fucked up-ness of what he's doing to the stripper is because that appears to be the topic of the thread. He refers to her as his "stripper friend" but he's treating her like garbage, IMO.

[brykster]

I mean, I think it goes without saying that the fiance's getting the worst end of the whole deal. I started talking about this topic in another thread just recently. I would agree with you that a marriage seems like a terrible idea for him at this point. The only reason I was focusing on the fucked up-ness of what he's doing to the stripper is because that appears to be the topic of the thread. He refers to her as his "stripper friend" but he's treating her like garbage, IMO.

i agree...and i am not faulting you at all. i just think Johnny needs to open his eyes before he ruins two lives...his and his fiance's. .

[masquerade]

It's too bad more people can't get down with swinging. Seems like it could potentially solve a lot of the variety vs. intimacy problems.

[Johnny0114]

i don't think MOST are attached. i certainly am not...but then again, neither are you. which is why i don't understand why you want to be. earlier you boasted about FREQUENTLY cheating on your fiance. yes, i'm being judgmental; but i find that disgusting. it's one thing to have been married for years and grow bored, searching for a new thrill. that's fine...you stay together for financial reasons, for the kids...whatever. but to start out that way is a little ridiculous. do you intend to keep cheating throughout you marriage?



You have opened my eyes, now I totally understand it. It’s ok to cheat on your SO long after you’ve been married, have kids and grow bored. But to do it from the beginning is just so wrong. I don’t know if it’s just me, but that sounds so hypocritical. I don’t try to justify my actions and I definitely know what I am doing to my SO is wrong on so many levels. Basically we’ve been together for a long time and the intimacy is just not there. And no she has not let herself go or anything like that. It’s just that her sexual drive is just not even remotely close to mine. Every other chapter in our life is great. We are best of friends and talk all the time about anything and everything. We watch movies together all the time, have so many similar interests.

[masquerade]

You have opened my eyes, now I totally understand it. It’s ok to cheat on your SO long after you’ve been married, have kids and grow bored. But to do it from the beginning is just so wrong. I don’t know if it’s just me, but that sounds so hypocritical. I don’t try to justify my actions and I definitely know what I am doing to my SO is wrong on so many levels. Basically we’ve been together for a long time and the intimacy is just not there. And no she has not let herself go or anything like that. It’s just that her sexual drive is just not even remotely close to mine. Every other chapter in our life is great. We are best of friends and talk all the time about anything and everything. We watch movies together all the time, have so many similar interests.

If I loved someone very much, and we came upon a situation where my sex drive waned to the point where I could sense his frustration and knew he was missing something very important to him, I would be selfless enough to allow him the opportunity to have meaningless sex with other women as long as he gave me his word he would be safe about the whole thing. I would expect the same in return from him. Am I crazy?? I don't think so. I think that's just the right thing to do.

He'd better fucking talk to me about what he was feeling though. Because if I found out he was lying to me about anything at all... it would break my fucking heart.

[justlooking]

That isn't the reason long-married guys cheat at all. A lot of guys say it is, in order to justify their actions. But it isn't. (At least not in my experience.)

[justlooking]

And frankly, M, I would think you would understand better than most the need that some people feel for a variety of sexual experiences.

[brykster]

You have opened my eyes, now I totally understand it. It’s ok to cheat on your SO long after you’ve been married, have kids and grow bored. But to do it from the beginning is just so wrong. I don’t know if it’s just me, but that sounds so hypocritical.

you are absolutely right. But in all honesty, i find infidelity wrong under most circumstances. I have never cheated on anyone and when I am dating someone seriously, I do not go to clubs. In all honesty, I mearly added the caveat about being married for a while in deference to several individuals who use this board who I happen to like alot. Understand, I am not saying cheating makes you a bad person; but I do think it makes you a selfish person and I really don't think you are considering what this can do to your SO should you marry her under these false pretenses.

Returning to my first point, I am also assuming that a person who has been married for some time may have been in love, gotten married, been faithful for quite some time and simply lost their love for their SO. Your situation is different. Your relationship is already loveless and unsatisfying to begin with. Getting married under those circumstances will pretty much assure you of having a miserable marriage that will end in trauma.

[masquerade]

That isn't the reason long-married guys cheat at all. A lot of guys say it is, in order to justify their actions. But it isn't. (At least not in my experience.)

No, you're absolutely right. But since I have no idea whether or not Johnny's being honest about his reasons for cheating, my comment was made under the assumption that he is telling the truth. And - to further what I was saying earlier in regards to that - I think that marrying someone in the absence of a satisfying sexual relationship seems like a horrible, awful, retarded idea. (you know, unless it's one of those paid green card arrangements or something like that.)

And yes, I do understand the overwhelming desire people have for sexual variety. I'm just not sure that immersing yourself in the sex industry behind your SO's back is an appropriate way to deal with that desire anymore. My feelings on this issue have changed dramatically over the last couple of years.

[Johnny0114]

Yes, variety is probably the biggest reason that I end up cheating on my SO.

[Johnny0114]

I finally did tell her the truth about my SO. She took it somewhat the wrong way. She felt like I lied to her and deceived her. She was not happy about it, but she also will not stop seeing me because of it.

[justlooking]

She took it somewhat the wrong way. She felt like I lied to her and deceived her.

Gosh. How in the world can she feel like that?

[LorenzoDeMedici]

Gosh. How in the world can she feel like that?

I'm wondering what the fuck was the right way for her to take it??

[Thorn]

... i find infidelity wrong under most circumstances.

"Wrong" isn't a term I would use, but I do find a society that expects behavior that is totally predicated on an outmoded* need to keep men close to the mothers of their children so that they do not become a burden on society in general, working on a presumptive life expectancy of 35 years of age and an average marriage period of 20 years to be impractical.

While emotional monogamy is a fine ideal, and one to be desired and attempted with all due diligence; physical/sexual monogamy, especially on the part of the male animal, is a biological conundrum to say the least. It is, as just about every professional sex survey done since the 50's by anyone of any intellectual merit has shown, near an impossibility at worst.

If 50+% of men are not biologically faithful are the men wrong or is the system wrong?

*outmoded because there are other means now-days to make sure men remain responsible for providing for their children other than staying in a marriage that isn't working. Mothers as well, for that matter.

[Thorn]

BTW, that 50+% figure is a very conservative one based on very strict definitions of what cheating is [actual sexual intercourse with someone other than a spouse].

The figures approach 70+% in scientific blind studies where participants are more apt to be candid and include broader definitions that include sexual acts other than intercourse.

A side note: These same studies report the rate of females involved in sexual infidelity is showing marked increases and is over 50+% as well.

[justme]

It is true that two wrongs make a right.

[Thorn]

It is true that two wrongs make a right.

If that is regard to the above it has nothing to do with the argument I am presenting.

It isn't about revenge, two wrongs, etc.

My argument is about the illogic of bucking biological traits that are corroborated by statistical evidence.

[brykster]

nobody is forced to make the promise of forever. if you don't mean it, then don't do it. that's why it is wrong. i agree that the concept is outmoded; but no one is holding a gun to anyone's head. there are plenty of people in open relationships who aren't living a lie. i am not saying one should be monogamous but can we agree that lying is wrong? if we can agree on that, then infidelity is wrong, right?

[justme]

(What he said.)

[celtic knight]

If this stripper doesn't know where you work or live, change the cell phone number and find a new strip club. Then feel your SO out on the question of fidelity. Maybe you'll get lucky; she won't think BJs are sex.

[Johnny0114]

If this stripper doesn't know where you work or live, change the cell phone number and find a new strip club. Then feel your SO out on the question of fidelity. Maybe you'll get lucky; she won't think BJs are sex.


No, she has no idea where I live and she does not have my home/work number. I don't think she will turn psycho on me. At least I hope not; although she did tell me some things about herself that I found to be a bit disturbing. It’s not like we’re in love or anything like that. I’m not changing my cell phone number just yet. I think it’s a bit drastic too soon.

[Johnny0114]

nobody is forced to make the promise of forever. if you don't mean it, then don't do it. that's why it is wrong. i agree that the concept is outmoded; but no one is holding a gun to anyone's head. there are plenty of people in open relationships who aren't living a lie. i am not saying one should be monogamous but can we agree that lying is wrong? if we can agree on that, then infidelity is wrong, right?

I also believe that infidelity is wrong. And I also have all types of double standards. No, I would not want to have an open relationship with my SO. I know I’m a hypocrite but that’s just me. It is one thing for me to have an open relationship with someone I don’t care about; I just could not do it with someone I love. The stripper tells me that she doesn’t have a boyfriend/SO and that she is not messing around with anyone else but me. I don’t believe her. It doesn’t make a bit of difference anyway because I don’t care for her that way nor am I pursuing any type of serious relationship with her. No offense but strippers just have way too much baggage.

[brykster]

I also believe that infidelity is wrong. And I also have all types of double standards. No, I would not want to have an open relationship with my SO. I know I’m a hypocrite but that’s just me.

well, at least you know who you are. several weeks ago i asked whether you plan to curb your ways after you are married...you never answered.

[Johnny0114]

well, at least you know who you are. several weeks ago i asked whether you plan to curb your ways after you are married...you never answered.

I don't know if I can be faithful 100% once I am married. I cannot say yes to something I don't know for certain. I don't mess around all the time. For me, it comes in spurts. There are times I can go up to a year without messing around. It depends on a lot of different factors. I would love decicate myself to my SO completely and not give in to these urges.

[masquerade]

I would love decicate myself to my SO completely and not give in to these urges.

You're either blatently lying, or you need to get yourself some help - because if your behavior is controlling you in such a manner that you wish you could stop but can't, then you have a very serious problem.

[masquerade]

I finally did tell her the truth about my SO. She took it somewhat the wrong way. She felt like I lied to her and deceived her. She was not happy about it, but she also will not stop seeing me because of it.

Well, at least you finally told her the truth. The thing is, if she was really that upset after you told her about your SO but still wants to keep seeing you, it's probably an indicator that she's emotionally attached to you but has low self-esteem. (otherwise, she either 1. wouldn't have really cared, or 2. would have been like "fuck you, asshole" and walked away.) Pesonally, I think that's a recipe for disaster no matter how you look at, and it's extremely selfish and unethical to continue seeing this girl, both in regards to the stripper and your SO. Do you really want to be responsible for breaking someone's heart because you felt like getting laid, even if the heart that's broken belongs to someone you don't have deep feelings for?

[justme]

I dunno, seems like the stripper knows the score. Wouldn't it be patronizing to make this decision for her?

(Of course, I agree with you WRT the SO)

[Thorn]

nobody is forced to make the promise of forever. if you don't mean it, then don't do it. that's why it is wrong. i agree that the concept is outmoded; but no one is holding a gun to anyone's head. there are plenty of people in open relationships who aren't living a lie. i am not saying one should be monogamous but can we agree that lying is wrong? if we can agree on that, then infidelity is wrong, right?

Oh, Brykster. I respect you but that is simply a naive comment.

There is a myriad of social expectations, and the pressures that go with them, when people marry. Pressures from family, other married friends who you have shared time with and become part of their social circle, all of whom expect you to stay married because if you dissolve your relationship it becomes messy and effects their lives as well. Social pressures of divorce, dealing with lawyers and courts, etc. Your employer, depending on their make up, may change its stance toward you [though they won't admit it openly]. And all that is just the tip of the iceberg.

As for people living in open relationships not living a lie? All I can say to that, having been one of those people for years, is that you simply exchange one set of lies for another.

None of my friends knew my long term girl-friend/lover/cohabitant and I were swingers. We both held jobs where one was expected to be straight-laced and button-downed. Neither did our families know, or most of our friends who didn't swing as well.

No, I apologize for saying so but I think your statement above is not particularly well thought through.

[Thorn]

(What he said.)

(What I said)


:)

[Thorn]

You're either blatently lying, or you need to get yourself some help - because if your behavior is controlling you in such a manner that you wish you could stop but can't, then you have a very serious problem.

I wish someone would address this:

While I am NOT stating there is no such thing as sexual addiction, or even sexual compulsion, what I am saying is if the statistical evidence compiled during scientific research by respected researchers indicates that most men "cheat" in their married relationships...

What than is wrong: 1) that men cheat in their married relationships? or 2) That we, as a society, expect them not to?

Remember that one of the best definition for insanity is: The repeating of a specific act, over and over again, expecting a different result as a conclusion.

The question is, by scientific analysis, not whether your husband is cheating but how many times. We marry, over and over again, expecting a different result when scientifically collected statistical evidence indicates quite strongly that it will have the same result.

The lie told to cover the tracks of the STATISTICALLY NORMAL BEHAVIOR [social norm] is a societal necessity due to the damage done to the individual acting within true social norms, as the societal expectations are out of sync with the actual SOCIETAL NORMS.

QED: in regard to married fidelity, this society is insane. :)

[Thorn]

The lie told to cover the tracks of the STATISTICALLY NORMAL BEHAVIOR [social norm] is a societal necessity due to the damage done to the individual acting within TRUE SOCIAL NORMS, as the societal expectations are out of sync with the ACTUAL SOCIAL BEHAVIOR.

=========

Please do not dismiss this as a rationalisation.

It is a conclusion based on rational thought when considering the scientific data we have on male fidelity within the social framework of marriage in the United States [and it applies to most of Europe even more so, though there it is much more tolerated than in the U.S.].

[brykster]

Oh, Brykster. I respect you but that is simply a naive comment.

There is a myriad of social expectations, and the pressures that go with them, when people marry. Pressures from family, other married friends who you have shared time with and become part of their social circle, all of whom expect you to stay married because if you dissolve your relationship it becomes messy and effects their lives as well. Social pressures of divorce, dealing with lawyers and courts, etc. Your employer, depending on their make up, may change its stance toward you [though they won't admit it openly]. And all that is just the tip of the iceberg.

As for people living in open relationships not living a lie? All I can say to that, having been one of those people for years, is that you simply exchange one set of lies for another.

None of my friends knew my long term girl-friend/lover/cohabitant and I were swingers. We both held jobs where one was expected to be straight-laced and button-downed. Neither did our families know, or most of our friends who didn't swing as well.

No, I apologize for saying so but I think your statement above is not particularly well thought through.

i considered the social pressures. i am aware. believe me, every week i hear from a family member, why aren't you married yet? I am also aware that I am preaching from a podium of superiority which is largely circumstantial, meaning, given other circumstances, I would probably be as defensive as you are in justifying my life choices. However, the fact of the matter is that till this point I have never succumbed to the temptations of cheating while in a relationship. Of course I am aware that this does not mean that I never will. But I do know that given the opportunity to do so, something has stopped me...namely, my inability to hurt someone that I care about. perhaps when I said cheating was wrong I was being too fatalistic in my thinking. People make many choices life for different reasons. All I can say is till this point in life, the concept of cheating when in a relationship is not something that I would consider and is certainly not something I would accept in somebody I was with.

I am curious, does your negative outlook on society's conventions and rules mean that you would be more accepting if your girlfriend/wife came home and told you she was fucking someone else? there are two sides to the coin you are throwing out there and if you accept one, you must accept the other. I guess part of the way I think comes from the fact that I am a stern believer in the Golden Rule and I would not do to others what I wouldn't want done to me. I would be unable to tolerate cheating in someone else. Therefore, I will not cheat.

I apologize for being judgmental because I do realize that I'm speaking specifically about my circumstances which may not parallel everyone else's. So if I've offended you by saying your lifestyle is "wrong", then I apologize; but I can say in all conscience that your lifestyle and the lifestyle of other married individuals using this board is and likely will be "wrong for me."

[masquerade]

Thorn - it's not that you're wrong about the absurdity of societal pressures when considered alongside biology... I don't think anyone here is debating that. What I believe Brykster is trying to say is that he considers doing something you know would hurt someone you care about to be wrong, and I agree with him. How can you possibly justify deceiving someone you love because scientific data has proven that everyone does it? Is it ok because it's so common? Is it ok that people don't floss, or that they steal cable tv, or let their babies cry at movies?

You're throwing all this stuff out there about statistical evidence and whatnot... and fine, we see your point, but how does any of that make it ok to engage in behavior that you would never accept from the person you were with, if the tables were turned.... and then lie to them about it?

[justme]

(What I said)
:)

No. You still haven't addressed the idea that people do not have to get married. They don't have to lie. They choose to lie because it is more expedient for them. But convenience does not make ethics.

There are countless things that biology compels us to do that humanity should restrain us from doing. It's statistically evident that people loose their tempers and behave irrationally out of anger. That does not mean that society should not condemn this behavior.

Anyways, the two of us have been down this road countless times, and I don't think anyone is changing anyone else's ideas today.

[brykster]

There are countless things that biology compels us to do that humanity should restrain us from doing. It's statistically evident that people loose their tempers and behave irrationally out of anger. That does not mean that society should not condemn this behavior.

ahhh...the superego Vs. the id. Freud would be proud.

[brykster]

What I believe Brykster is trying to say is that he considers doing something you know would hurt someone you care about to be wrong, and I agree with him. How can you possibly justify deceiving someone you love because scientific data has proven that everyone does it? Is it ok because it's so common? Is it ok that people don't floss, or that they steal cable tv, or let their babies cry at movies?

very well put.

[Gavvy Cravath]

I'll have to add that bunyon was very disappointed to see that Brykster was online at 3 AM this morning. I was driving to Roosevelt and on the phone with bunyon and he said: "Whoa, brykster didn't go out tonight. He's posting. No news from him tomorrow..."

Although we don't hang out too much in the same threads, bryk, you are a great read.

Gavy

[justlooking]

I think you have to distinguish between the justifications we come up with for our own benefit, so we can get through the day without thinking we're steaming piles of shit, and those we actually rely on to make a difference to other people.

I have my own famous mantra that "it isn't cheating if I pay." Thorn has his biological determinism. My mantra is solely for my own benefit; if my wife ever caught me, I would never in a million years expect her to accept it, or assume it would make a difference to her. If she caught me, her definitions would control, not mine.

Similarly, I HOPE that if Thorn's wife caught him, he would not lecture her that it's unreasonable and wrong for her to feel hurt and betrayed by his infidelity because he had no choice in the matter but was rather doing what biology dictates.

I personally like my justification more than Thorn's because I think Thorn's determinism gives him an easy out by permitting him to duck any moral misgivings by the claim that he has no choice in the matter and that it's society that's wrong. In other words, I think that in this case Thorn is wearing the "rose colored glasses" he rails against in other contexts.

But, of course, so am I.

In any event, the point I'm trying to make that in a sense this is another "apples and oranges" discussion. Because I think -- or at least I hope -- that Thorn is talking about something different from masquerade and justme.

[Axe]

ahhh...the superego Vs. the id. Freud would be proud.

Then he would do a line of coke to celebrate.

[brykster]

I'll have to add that bunyon was very disappointed to see that Brykster was online at 3 AM this morning. I was driving to Roosevelt and on the phone with bunyon and he said: "Whoa, brykster didn't go out tonight. He's posting. No news from him tomorrow..."

Although we don't hang out too much in the same threads, bryk, you are a great read.

Gavy

ahhh, but i did!!!

i was in P-Town till 2AM. it was a pretty bad night. Cabaret was dead. 8 dancers with nothing above a 3 to be had. plus, my Anais did not show. watched some boxing and some snake stuff on Animalo Planet with my friend, Picci in the back and took off about 12:30.

went to Trop. not much better. decided to try a few dancers i was wondering about since there were no standouts. had a dance with a very tall, dark haired, light skin Latina...not Brazilian or Dominican. maybe Colombian. anyways, DFK, roaming and some good hand action...could've gone to completion; but i had others i wanted to audition, so i held out. definitely a mistake since she was the best of the night.

next was an all american stupid drunk, crack-ho skinny blonde with a dumb back-piece...a rarity for these parts. she screamed pick-up truck and stale Bud. anyways, here's how drunk she was; it took her about two minutes to realize my pointer finger was knuckle deep in her box before she said "oh, sorry, you can't do that." anyhow, i couldn't get my dick out because she was grinding her ass on me pretty much continually for the whole 5 minutes. plus, i don't think she would've appreciated it. after the dance she apologized. she said she usually gives really great dances but was so drunk, she could "hardly stand." i don't believe it because who the hell becomes more reserved when they are drunk?

lastly, was a mistake. an older brazilian blonde with short hair. not sure why i went for her. she wasn't even that attractive. i guess because my past experiences with brazilian grandmas told me i would probably get some head or at least a really eager handy at the very least. sadly, i did not. she was prudish as hell. she wouldn't even touch it. she told me to come during the week and she would give my HJ. yeah right, lemme go out of my way to get a 55 year old handy. plus, what's the difference during the week that she can't do it now. another example of how strippers think we are the dumbest, most naive people walking the earth.

anyways, i was done with the whole freakin travesty, so i finished myself on her thigh, mush to her chagrin : ) and went home.

did not tip any of them...no exceptional service, so no tip.

how was that, fellas?

[brykster]

Then he would do a line of coke to celebrate.

he was a GREAT man!!!!!!

[Axe]

yeah right, lemme go out of my way to get a 55 year old handy. plus, what's the difference during the week that she can't do it now. another example of how strippers think we are the dumbest, most naive people walking the earth.

Its stripper talk for 'forget it, but by all means come back and waste even MORE money on me'. You're supposed to know thats what she really means. lol

anyways, i was done with the whole freakin travesty, so i finished myself on her thigh, mush to her chagrin : ) and went home.

did not tip any of them...no exceptional service, so no tip.

how was that, fellas?

Funny, man, funny. lol

[justme]

I think you have to distinguish between the justifications we come up with for our own benefit, so we can get through the day without thinking we're steaming piles of shit, and those we actually rely on to make a difference to other people.

But I think Thorn has explicitly said that this isn't just a rationalization. I think he does expect that other people should adopt his pov...

Anyways, looking back at the thread I can see that the stance I should have taken earlier was that infidelity is not wrong per se, however failing to honor commitments that you've made to people that you care about is wrong.

[Thorn]

...I would probably be as defensive...

Please don't mistake trying to be open in a discussion about "civilized" society as defensive behavior.

I truly don't believe I have to justify myself to anyone other than God and the very small handful of people I care for and respect beyond the point I care for and respect humanity in general. The guilt ridden experience that particular need and I experience very little in the way of guilt. I just don't seem to have that particular gene, or maybe I just have a very different idea about what one should feel guilty about?

I am curious, does your negative outlook on society's conventions and rules mean that you would be more accepting if your girlfriend/wife came home and told you she was fucking someone else?

First let me say that I do not have an overall negative outlook on society's conventions and rules. I have a disdain for hypocrisy [and I justify this by being my own worse critic, hating my own above all others] and a love of common sense, practical, approaches toward life. That is all.

And I don't know how you could have read my posts for as long as you have and missed my saying, many times over, that I have the same expectations of my wife's conduct as I have for my own. "Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.", I always say.

She and I have spoken of it, and she dipped her toe in the water and found it unpleasant to her nature. I love her and don't want to change her. She loves me, and knows all about my previous "life style" and even my desires, but would have to change me or leave me if she allowed herself to see the obvious [which is the only reason a lie by omission works with an otherwise intelligent person... they don't want to see].

I have tried, and tried hard [and with me that is saying something as I do very few things half-way], but find I can not change the basic nature of my sexuality.

This leaves me with two choices: Either fight my nature with the result of lost esteem mired in self-recrimination when I fail, or lie by omission [still a lie] and otherwise love this woman and try and make her happy the best I can outside of that lie. The latter is the lesser loss for me [up until the point where I fail in the execution of my planning or her blinders come off... and don't believe for a second that the irony of that is lost on me].

Which sort of makes me a selfish little prick, and now you know why I chose the handle "Thorn".

[Thorn]

Thorn - it's not that you're wrong about the absurdity of societal pressures when considered alongside biology... I don't think anyone here is debating that. What I believe Brykster is trying to say is that he considers doing something you know would hurt someone you care about to be wrong, and I agree with him. How can you possibly justify deceiving someone you love because scientific data has proven that everyone does it? Is it ok because it's so common? Is it ok that people don't floss, or that they steal cable tv, or let their babies cry at movies?

See above.

You're throwing all this stuff out there about statistical evidence and whatnot... and fine, we see your point, but how does any of that make it ok to engage in behavior that you would never accept from the person you were with, if the tables were turned.... and then lie to them about it?

There is a something of a difference between tolerance and outright acceptance.

I would be outright accepting of my wife having a non-emotional sexual liaison with another adult.

I would be tolerant of her feeling the need, given society's feelings on that sort of thing, if she felt the need to lie about it.

It would hurt me if she felt the need to lie to ME specifically. I would, in short order, get a grip on it and get over it, just as if she lied to me about some other thing of minor consequence when compared to the totality of what should be our love for each other.

I see things in terms of BIG PICTURES. I try not to get lost in the minutia and I can't help seeing sex without emotions as trivial when compared to other aspects of a relationship I see as far more important.

[Thorn]

No. You still haven't addressed the idea that people do not have to get married. They don't have to lie. They choose to lie because it is more expedient for them. But convenience does not make ethics.

There are countless things that biology compels us to do that humanity should restrain us from doing. It's statistically evident that people loose their tempers and behave irrationally out of anger. That does not mean that society should not condemn this behavior.

Anyways, the two of us have been down this road countless times, and I don't think anyone is changing anyone else's ideas today.

I just want to make one point and that goes to your understanding of what I am trying to say.

I am NOT suggesting that our biology should checkmate our reason.

I am simply suggesting that if we want reason to rule the day we have to acknowledge our biology.

The first step in overcoming a problem is to admit its existence. When it comes to sexual fidelity in committed relationships [and others brought marriage into the picture... expected sexual fidelity isn't limited to marriage] we seem to want to just ignore our very mammalian natures.

That doesn't sound like reason to me.

[Thorn]

...if my wife ever caught me, I would never in a million years expect her to accept it, or assume it would make a difference to her. If she caught me, her definitions would control, not mine.

Ditto that.

Similarly, I HOPE that if Thorn's wife caught him, he would not lecture her that it's unreasonable and wrong for her to feel hurt and betrayed by his infidelity because he had no choice in the matter but was rather doing what biology dictates.

You have every reason to assume I would do no such thing. I'd sit there, shut up other than to apologize profusely, and hope for the best. It is one of the few areas of my life where I do not have a 'Plan B', because I really don't know how I would go on if she left me.

Which is precisely why I feel it is a biological imperative. Since I have no problem dealing with matters of will, other than in my appetites for basic, very animalistic, things. I don't crave drugs or other non-natural things. I like to be well fed and well fucked. [shrugging shoulders] :)

I've tried to deal with both and curb my appetites... with very mixed success. I refuse, and have for some time, to beat myself up about it any longer, while still being fully aware and accepting of the consequences for same.

I personally like my justification more than Thorn's because I think Thorn's determinism gives him an easy out by permitting him to duck any moral misgivings by the claim that he has no choice in the matter and that it's society that's wrong. In other words, I think that in this case Thorn is wearing the "rose colored glasses" he rails against in other contexts.

To each their own, but you'll have to allow me to disagree with that.

I don't duck the 'moral' implications. Like I said, I am fully aware of the consequences and prepared to accept them if I am caught. I have no illusions as to how I will be judged by others, so no rose tinted specs here. Common sense isn't so common, and I know what I deem to be practical isn't the way most other people see it.

In any event, the point I'm trying to make that in a sense this is another "apples and oranges" discussion. Because I think -- or at least I hope -- that Thorn is talking about something different from masquerade and justme.

Yes and no.

Yes, it is in the sense that it is what it is and always has been, and it is unlikely that any of us is ever going to change that.

No, in that it isn't in the sense of, "How nice would it be if we could all understand that our natures are our natures, and learned to adapt to better control them by acknowledging them first, and than setting up our societies with acceptable outlets that allow us to deal with them better." Think of how much better the world might be if we had socially acceptable outlets for our natural impulses. An outlet for rage other than mayhem, sexual diversity other than cheating, etc, etc, etc.

[Thorn]

But I think Thorn has explicitly said that this isn't just a rationalization. I think he does expect that other people should adopt his pov...


I think it is a problem.

I think one resolves problems by first defining it. Next figuring out why it is a problem in the first place, than either finding a direct fix or a work around.

I think we know what the problem is and why it is a problem.

I think 3000 years of recorded history indicates there is no direct fix for it that works more than 30% of the time. At least not in THIS society.

Therefore the next logical step is to determine if there is a kludge [a work around] that resolves the issue.

That sounds like straight forward problem solving to me... but go figure.

[again, shrugging shoulders]

[brykster]

She and I have spoken of it, and she dipped her toe in the water and found it unpleasant to her nature. I love her and don't want to change her. She loves me, and knows all about my previous "life style" and even my desires, but would have to change me or leave me if she allowed herself to see the obvious [which is the only reason a lie by omission works with an otherwise intelligent person... they don't want to see].

so you are NOT living a lie. so nothing i've said pertains to you. in fact from your actions, your decision to be forthright and honest, it appears that you think similar to me. i'm assuming you felt some degree of conscience that influenced you decision.


I honestly was unaware of your openness prior to reading this post. So I'm curious as to what you may take objection to. My premise has little to do with fidelity and monogamy; but is mostly concerned with honesty and openness.

[brykster]

She loves me, and knows all about my previous "life style" and even my desires, but would have to change me or leave me if she allowed herself to see the obvious [which is the only reason a lie by omission works with an otherwise intelligent person... they don't want to see].


woops, haven't had my coffee yet. having actually read the post at this point, I understand what you are saying and it is probably pretty similar to what I would say given similar circumstances. Again, I don't pretend to know what I would do if I was in a long-term committed relationship where monogamy was expected. So I apologize if I am not coming across as judgmental. I am just trying to understand you and others like you; and their decision-making process for the purposes of learning how I may conduct myself when these issues do come to bear in my life. A long time ago, I had posted that there is no way in hell that I would ever tell a potential SO about my past mongering activities. I guess this type of omission is just as much a lie as yours and I hate that. I guess it's pretty obvious that i'm a very open kind of person and I really do my best not to lie. In contrast to you, I do feel guilt rather frequently about many things in my life whether it's dropping a piece of gum out the window of my car or taking an extra half-hour for lunch. it's just my nature.

[ExLS]

Tell her the truth.

This isn't even hard.

Want some advice, run away and leave her alone. Personally since moving back to NY in 1997, I have dated strippers, had sex with them outside and in the clubs, tried to help them, hav/had numerous friendships with them, so just think of it as a call girl experience. A stripper and I were best friends for 8 years and I told her that I had feelings 4 her(We were both single at the time) and she freaked out. Our friendship fell apart from there. If you are cheating, go see a pro on this board!

[masquerade]

I just want to make one point and that goes to your understanding of what I am trying to say.

I am NOT suggesting that our biology should checkmate our reason.

I am simply suggesting that if we want reason to rule the day we have to acknowledge our biology.

The first step in overcoming a problem is to admit its existence. When it comes to sexual fidelity in committed relationships [and others brought marriage into the picture... expected sexual fidelity isn't limited to marriage] we seem to want to just ignore our very mammalian natures.

That doesn't sound like reason to me.


You're absolutely right, it's not reasonable. But it still doesn't create a loophole for the acceptability of deceipt. What's wrong with dating someone who also enjoys variety, someone who like to swing or is into threesomes? Isn't that a much more humane and guilt-free solution to the variety predicament? Or, you could just date someone with whom you have an open relationship type of understanding.... I don't know.... I'm just saying that there are other options out there that don't involve all the lies and deceipt. Yeah, fine.... biology's a bitch sometimes when it comes to monogomous relationships, but most of us eventually want all of the good things that come along with monogamy. I just refuse to believe there aren't ways to make it work that don't involve doing things you know would be hurtful to the other person.

[justlooking]

With all respect, M, that's a little simplistic.

You're assuming that sex (or more accurately, sexuality) is the most important thing to a person, or at least the driving force in a relationship. I personally have found that people who are into threesomes or swinging or open relationships usually tend to have OTHER things wrong with them that I don't like -- or, looking at it differently and more neutrally, tend not to have much in common with me with respect to anything other than sex. (Indeed, they often don't even have THAT in common with me, since I'm not at all into threesomes or swinging, so whatever "need" I have for varitety must be satisfied other ways.)

Now YOU might have been lucky enough to have found someone who is sexually open in a way that complements your preferences, and who is also otherwise a suitable partner for you. But I don't think it's realistic to speak as if that's something that's easy, or even likely enough that anyone else can realistically expect it.

[masquerade]

With all respect, M, that's a little simplistic.

You're assuming that sex (or more accurately, sexuality) is the most important thing to a person, or at least the driving force in a relationship. I personally have found that people who are into threesomes or swinging or open relationships usually tend to have OTHER things wrong with them that I don't like -- or, looking at it differently and more neutrally, tend not to have much in common with me with respect to anything other than sex. (Indeed, they often don't even have THAT in common with me, since I'm not at all into threesomes or swinging, so whatever "need" I have for varitety must be satisfied other ways.)

Now YOU might have been lucky enough to have found someone who is sexually open in a way that complements your preferences, and who is also otherwise a suitable partner for you. But I don't think it's realistic to speak as if that's something that's easy, or even likely enough that anyone else can realistically expect it.


With all respect towards you... I think this attitude denotes a bit of laziness. I think that most anyone can find someone (or a number of people) out there who compliment their preferences if they put enough effort into the search. Noone said finding Mr. or Mrs. Right was easy... I'm certainly not trying to downplay the difficulty involved in finding the perfect someone... I just don't think that shrugging your shoulders and being like, "well, I guess deceipt is the only answer" is a viable solution.

Do I realistically think most people can expect to find someone they genuinely love who "gets it"? No, but that's only because I think most people settle far too soon. Truly, most people you find out there who are into the world of illicit sex are not the types you would want to be in a long-term relationship with, but aren't there some that are, and aren't they worth waiting for and seeking out despite all the crap you might have to deal with to discover them?

Maybe it's just me... it's become too important to me to go backwards. And yes, I would consider it going backwards to date anyone who wasn't on board with my beliefs in this area. Couldn't do it again.

Man, I think I've become a total Debbie Downer lately. All I ever add to this board anymore is patronisingly annoying commentary. Someone please kill me.

[justlooking]

Nah. We have to let you live until something goes wrong with this current relationship and you have to retract. [SFSF]

[Thorn]

Man, I think I've become a total Debbie Downer lately. All I ever add to this board anymore is patronisingly annoying commentary. Someone please kill me.

No. I find you challenging and that makes me think, and evolve. I find that the antithesis of annoying.

What I believe is that you have the envious position of being young and having faced only a handful of the myriad number of compromises you will yet make in order to meet life on the terms it presents you*.

Since that is the case you presume such compromises are not necessary. I am afraid you will find otherwise.

*And make no mistake about it: Life, eventually, presents you with its terms. The lucky ones get to compromise. The less fortunate have to bow down and accept.

[justlooking]

Yeah, look, M. You never find someone who's perfect in all respects. You always compromise. You've said somewhere on this board that you'd prefer not to work while you're going to school, but that your SO's economic circumstances require you to. You could find someone with more money. But what you're really saying is, your SO's other qualities compensate for his lack of sufficient funds to support you in the manner you'd like, so you're willing to stay with him despite that (especially since you have access to good money on your own). Does it mean that you were "lazy" cuz you didn't hold out until you found someone with all the qualities you like in your SO plus money? Or does it mean that that's a compromise you're willing to make?

Well, why isn't it the same thing with this sex stuff? I'd rather not be put in a position of having to lie, but I think that most people who have the qualities I like aren't going to be so understanding on the sex front. It's not that I'm being "lazy" in not holding out till I find that in combination with the other stuff; I'm just dealing with the "art of the possible", JUST LIKE YOU.

Another complication that some of us older people here have is that in many cases this sex stuff has arisen long after we've been in our extremely long-term relationships. We couldn't have foreseen it as a factor when we chose our SOs.

Now of course, you could say that the right thing to do would be to suppress these sex urges and stay honest and faithful. It would be hard to argue with that. But on a board like this, I don't think that's a realistic position to take. As I've said in other discussions, on a board like this, the fact that we're acting out sexually is sort of a given. The question then becomes, how do we act best -- most ethically and humanely -- given the fact that we're gonna do what we do? I mean, it's easy to say "don't do it." But doing it is kind of the point of this board.

[Axe]

The problem:

Just try to find a SO who has all THREE of the following qualities:

1. LOVES to fuck.

2. Has LOTS of money.

3. Is VERY sexually attractive.

Consider yourself lucky to get any two in the same person.

IMHO, finding someone who has all three is like trying to find a needle in a haystack and I defy anyone, man or woman, to do it.

[justlooking]

"LOVES to fuck" isn't even the point.

It's more like "understands that your 'need' to fuck other people has nothing to do with your relationship" or "is sufficiently into non-mainstream sex as to be able to participate in the satisfaction of your 'need' for a variety of partners."

[justlooking]

And frankly, I think it's nearly a miracle if you can find someone that (a) you like enough as a person to want to be in a close long-term relationship and (b) is sexually attractive to you.

[Axe]

And frankly, I think it's nearly a miracle if you can find someone that (a) you like enough as a person to want to be in a close long-term relationship and (b) is sexually attractive to you.

I agree, but as a single guy I will tell you that I have met/dated women who meet both those conditions. (Shit, I'm involved with one right now.) Problem has always been that they dont have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of.

IME, nobody has only ONE condition for a propsective SO to meet. What people do tend to have are a set of conditions that are never completely found in only one person.

[donquixote04]

The problem:

Just try to find a SO who has all THREE of the following qualities:

1. LOVES to fuck.

2. Has LOTS of money.

3. Is VERY sexually attractive.

Consider yourself lucky to get any two in the same person.

IMHO, finding someone who has all three is like trying to find a needle in a haystack and I defy anyone, man or woman, to do it.
Hmmm. Two out of three. Not too shabby.

[Axe]

Hmmm. Two out of three. Not too shabby.


True.

I think one out of three happens a lot more often than many people are willing to admit.

[justme]

IMHO, finding someone who has all three is like trying to find a needle in a haystack and I defy anyone, man or woman, to do it.

I love my life!

[Thorn]

True.

I think one out of three happens a lot more often than many people are willing to admit.

I can honestly say that I have three out of the three you reference.

My wife is lovely [I think most would agree, but certainly to me at any rate], has a good job that pays well, and is a sexually active woman.

That still doesn't address what JL and I are speaking about, which is IMHO a biologically based compulsion as instinctual as "flight or fight", or the seeking of food and shelter.

[justlooking]

I just want to note my dissent from the "biologically based" "instinctual" part.

[Axe]

That still doesn't address what JL and I are speaking about, which is IMHO a biologically based compulsion as instinctual as "flight or fight", or the seeking of food and shelter.

I'd be slightly more inclined to agree with your theory if you were a little more willing to admit, like JL has, that you simply have to lie to your wife about your mongering because if you told her the truth you would, at the very least, hurt her feelings. MAybe you said this already, but I missed it.

[justlooking]

I agree, but as a single guy I will tell you that I have met/dated women who meet both those conditions. (Shit, I'm involved with one right now.) Problem has always been that they dont have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of.

IME, nobody has only ONE condition for a propsective SO to meet. What people do tend to have are a set of conditions that are never completely found in only one person.

I guess we're agreeing, then.

[Axe]

I guess we're agreeing, then.

Yes.


btw, the 'list' I posted really only applies to single people. Someone who has had the same SO for years doesnt count. They've already found what they want; if they didnt, they'd split up or be divorced. Take their SO out of their lives, THEN tell them its their mission to find a SO who meets those 3 conditions. Lotsa luck.

[justlooking]

Exactly. Thanks for understanding that.

[masquerade]

Wait a minute... do you guys actually care how much money we make? I mean, barring the lazy-ass-money-grubbing-gold-digger cliche, a woman's financial situation is a discerning factor when choosing a mate?

You know, I just laughed at my mother the other day because she told me she thought my young, beautiful, and funny sister who's a struggling hair stylist would have trouble "landing a man" because of the socio-economic status she felt being a "hairdresser" implied. I basically told her she was a dinosaur and men didn't care about that stuff anymore as long as you were hot and had your shit together. Was I totally off base or what?

[DaveNJ]

Wait a minute... do you guys actually care how much money we make? I mean, barring the lazy-ass-money-grubbing-gold-digger cliche, a woman's financial situation is a discerning factor when choosing a mate?

You know, I just laughed at my mother the other day because she told me she thought my young, beautiful, and funny sister who's a struggling hair stylist would have trouble "landing a man" because of the socio-economic status she felt being a "hairdresser" implied. I basically told her she was a dinosaur and men didn't care about that stuff anymore as long as you were hot and had your shit together. Was I totally off base or what?

Not at all, or at least not where I'm coming from. If a girl is great in other ways, I don't really care if she's got money or not. That's not to say its nice if she does, but I wouldn't pass up an otherwise desirable woman because of her financial status.

[brykster]

Wait a minute... do you guys actually care how much money we make? I mean, barring the lazy-ass-money-grubbing-gold-digger cliche, a woman's financial situation is a discerning factor when choosing a mate?

You know, I just laughed at my mother the other day because she told me she thought my young, beautiful, and funny sister who's a struggling hair stylist would have trouble "landing a man" because of the socio-economic status she felt being a "hairdresser" implied. I basically told her she was a dinosaur and men didn't care about that stuff anymore as long as you were hot and had your shit together. Was I totally off base or what?

what she makes is unimportant. however, if she is in serious debt, that is a very different story, because her debt becomes yours. i would not date a person who i knew was in serious debt (20K+).

[justlooking]

Money isn't important to me (although I wouldn't turn it down).

But socio-economic status does. I'd have trouble going out with a hairdresser.

[ExLS]

Wait a minute... do you guys actually care how much money we make? I mean, barring the lazy-ass-money-grubbing-gold-digger cliche, a woman's financial situation is a discerning factor when choosing a mate?

You know, I just laughed at my mother the other day because she told me she thought my young, beautiful, and funny sister who's a struggling hair stylist would have trouble "landing a man" because of the socio-economic status she felt being a "hairdresser" implied. I basically told her she was a dinosaur and men didn't care about that stuff anymore as long as you were hot and had your shit together. Was I totally off base or what?

agreed. A women needs to take her psychotropic and attend her therapy session. Lets flip it, Masque. , would you/not date a man based on his financial status? To my dismay, 9/10 I know many women that will date a man because of his wealth. Personally, I know of 3 strippers that did marry their rich customers(Of course, all of them are divorced).

IN my heart of hearts, a woman/lady needs to be genuinely nice, period!!!

[donquixote04]

Yes.


btw, the 'list' I posted really only applies to single people. Someone who has had the same SO for years doesnt count. They've already found what they want; if they didnt, they'd split up or be divorced. Take their SO out of their lives, THEN tell them its their mission to find a SO who meets those 3 conditions. Lotsa luck.

Hmmm (again). When I said "two out of three ain't bad" I meant I had 2 out of 3 on your list.

And, btw, some of us with long-term SO's can say that our SO's used to have 1/2/3 out of those 3, and now have 0/1/2, and there may be a lot of reasons not to have split up or divorced. Things aren't always so clear cut, unfortunately.

[Thorn]

I just want to note my dissent from the "biologically based" "instinctual" part.

I don't know how you can argue the biological instinct part?

I can see if you want to argue it can be negated by reason, but every legit social and anthropological scientist acknowledges basic human instincts of preservation, procreation, etc.

Men and women are biologically different. Certainly equal, but not the same.

Men are hard wired to seek out multiple, sexually fertile, partners to increase the chances of passing their genetic code down into the next generation.

Women are hard wired to seek partners who can provide for offspring.

These are male and female reptilian and mammalian brain functions that exist in the base brain and brain stem that we carried over from earlier evolutionary forms long before we developed frontal lobes and higher brain functions.

There is all manner of data to support this.

Just because we evolved into homosapiens doesn't mean we aren't still animals. We decidedly are, and denying that is part of the problem as I see it.

[Thorn]

I'd be slightly more inclined to agree with your theory if you were a little more willing to admit, like JL has, that you simply have to lie to your wife about your mongering because if you told her the truth you would, at the very least, hurt her feelings. MAybe you said this already, but I missed it.

I did say it.

You did miss it. :)

I didn't say the cause that I lied is biologically based. No animal besides humans lie. Reasoning is the reason I lie. I reason it would hurt her feelings to know the truth. I reason that I would lose her, and I want to avoid that.

I said the cause that I have a desire to fuck around, despite the fact that reason tells me I have much to lose if caught, is biological.

[Thorn]

Wait a minute... do you guys actually care how much money we make? I mean, barring the lazy-ass-money-grubbing-gold-digger cliche, a woman's financial situation is a discerning factor when choosing a mate?

Practical men, who have an understanding of how things work economically and legally today, do.

I don't want a mate who can't provide for herself for the following reasons.

1) In today's U.S. economy one income isn't going to cut a middle or upper-middle class lifestyle.

2) I wouldn't have as much in common with a woman who isn't the "executive" I am. Those that are tend to think the same way I do about money, have similar world views, etc. A woman who has and can hold a good job is an indication we will be compatible.

3) Given how divorce works in this country, and the fact that only one out of every two marriages is successful long term, a man would be an idiot to marry a woman he is going to have to support financially right through retirement, if she doesn't remarry, after divorce because she has no legitimate source of income of her own.

Child support is one thing, but supporting an ex-spouse for her lifetime is adding insult to injury.

[Thorn]

Not at all, or at least not where I'm coming from. If a girl is great in other ways, I don't really care if she's got money or not. That's not to say its nice if she does, but I wouldn't pass up an otherwise desirable woman because of her financial status.

Man, are you in for a rude awakening after your first divorce. :D

I have one word for you... pre-nup.

[Thorn]

BTw, the answer you get to your question, based on the pols I have seen, will be greatly effected by age.

People JL's and my age [with exceptions like myself] see things from a period of socialization where men were expected to take care of their women financially. Hence their answers tend to reflect that. They care less about a woman's financial or employment status.

Younger, college educated, men have a very different answer to that. Their expectation is to make a decent living, and they expect their spouse to contribute her part to that end. None college educated men, percentage wise, differ to some degree from their college educated counter-parts.

Women, both non-college and college educated expect their spouses to at least equal their efforts in supporting the union financially.

[Axe]

Wait a minute... do you guys actually care how much money we make? I mean, barring the lazy-ass-money-grubbing-gold-digger cliche, a woman's financial situation is a discerning factor when choosing a mate?

Hell yes.

Dating and "dating" and fucking around is one thing. But, a SO? She better have some bucks.


I basically told her she was a dinosaur and men didn't care about that stuff anymore as long as you were hot and had your shit together. Was I totally off base or what?

As I see it, that is how things used to be. The way they are now is that college-educated men who have a well-paying career have every expectation that their SO will be/do the same.

[Axe]

I said the cause that I have a desire to fuck around, despite the fact that reason tells me I have much to lose if caught, is biological.

The cause for the desire to fuck around is biological and I'm sure every married man gets it sooner or later. The decision to act out that desire does NOT come from biology. It comes from the married man who wants to fuck around.

[justlooking]

BTw, the answer you get to your question, based on the pols I have seen, will be greatly effected by age.

People JL's and my age [with exceptions like myself] see things from a period of socialization where men were expected to take care of their women financially. Hence their answers tend to reflect that. They care less about a woman's financial or employment status.

Younger, college educated, men have a very different answer to that. Their expectation is to make a decent living, and they expect their spouse to contribute her part to that end. None college educated men, percentage wise, differ to some degree from their college educated counter-parts.

Women, both non-college and college educated expect their spouses to at least equal their efforts in supporting the union financially.

Good point!

[justlooking]

I don't know how you can argue the biological instinct part?

I can see if you want to argue it can be negated by reason, but every legit social and anthropological scientist acknowledges basic human instincts of preservation, procreation, etc.

Men and women are biologically different. Certainly equal, but not the same.

Men are hard wired to seek out multiple, sexually fertile, partners to increase the chances of passing their genetic code down into the next generation.

Women are hard wired to seek partners who can provide for offspring.

These are male and female reptilian and mammalian brain functions that exist in the base brain and brain stem that we carried over from earlier evolutionary forms long before we developed frontal lobes and higher brain functions.

There is all manner of data to support this.

Just because we evolved into homosapiens doesn't mean we aren't still animals. We decidedly are, and denying that is part of the problem as I see it.

I have no idea how powerful this is. You make it sound like we're wired to want to do something and we can't help it. It seems equally likely to me that this may now manifest itself as no more than some mere vestigial tendencies that are more or less easy to ignore. (I mean, we're also supposedly hard-wired to eat a lot of fat to preserve us over long fallow periods that no longer occur -- but a lot of people [not me] seem able to overcome that pretty easily.)

[justme]

what she makes is unimportant. however, if she is in serious debt, that is a very different story, because her debt becomes yours. i would not date a person who i knew was in serious debt (20K+).

$20,000 is serious debt? Shit. I guess I can always marry Sallie May.

[justme]

Masquerade - Everyone has their own answer to the question of financial viability for their spouse. And everyone has their own definition of financial viability.

Truth is, most of the people in my family married each other without any promise that either of them would make the money I will likely pay in income tax in a few years. Some part of (but not nearly most of) the reason that I'm doing what I'm doing right now (dealing with the poverty of graduate school) is to be in a position where no one I care about really has to worry about money.

That said, I have no desire to support a leisure class wife (or brother, or etc.). My only criteria is that my partner be doing something productive and that they find interesting.

[brykster]

$20,000 is serious debt? Shit. I guess I can always marry Sallie May.

i wouldn't want it, would you?

[masquerade]

Money isn't important to me (although I wouldn't turn it down).

But socio-economic status does. I'd have trouble going out with a hairdresser.

Really? That kind of surprises me. Hair styling no longer carries the same stigma it used to. I've known several successful hair stylists who not only do well financially, but who also take a lot of pride in their work and consider what they do to be very artistic. Many of their clients (and womens' mags, and Hollywood... etc.) agree. They go to all the best parties and dress cooler than anyone I know. I think the industry has evolved into something much more widely respected than it was 20 or 30 years ago.

In any case, I have to say I'm generally suprised by all the responses to my original female-financial-status inquiry. I understand the points everyone's made, but a lot of it seems sort of petty and shallow to me I suppose.

Money's important to me too, and I definitely wouldn't want to be with someone who I felt wasn't working as hard as I was. (been there, done it... resentment city.) However, if they are working hard and doing the best they can, and they're passionate about what they're doing and taking good care of me, who cares if they're making six figures or not? I just want the man in my life to have a strong work ethic and be financially responsible. He also has to be smart. Someone who has all those qualities probably makes decent money anyway, but not necessarily. It doesn't mean I wouldn't date them.

I would never date anyone who was bothered by how much money I made, because I've always worked my ass off. (well, maybe not always.... but recently, at least) I've had a couple of shitty paying jobs that I thought had the potential to become something better for me, so I stuck them out and really put in the effort. The thought of someone judging me and considering me an unsuitable mate based solely on my paycheck is therefore kind of insulting.

[justlooking]

FWIW, I basically agree with that attitude.

[Axe]

Really? That kind of surprises me. Hair styling no longer carries the same stigma it used to. I've known several successful hair stylists who not only do well financially, but who also take a lot of pride in their work and consider what they do to be very artistic. Many of their clients (and womens' mags, and Hollywood... etc.) agree. They go to all the best parties and dress cooler than anyone I know. I think the industry has evolved into something much more widely respected than it was 20 or 30 years ago.

I never knew it ever had a stigma with anyone other than perhaps the same kind of men who today wouldnt be caught dead dating one.

I'd say it all depends on the man's preferences and the social circle he moves in. I dont have a problem with it and my friends who wont like it (there would be a few) can just kiss my ass as far as I'm concerned.

Would I be wrong in saying that the kind of men who would have the biggest problem with dating a hairsytlist will NEVER cross paths with a hairstylist in the first place?

[Axe]

Money isn't important to me (although I wouldn't turn it down).

But socio-economic status does. I'd have trouble going out with a hairdresser.

What about a woman whose net worth is $8 million but she works as a hairstylist just to keep herself busy?

[Thorn]

I have no idea how powerful this is. You make it sound like we're wired to want to do something and we can't help it. It seems equally likely to me that this may now manifest itself as no more than some mere vestigial tendencies that are more or less easy to ignore. (I mean, we're also supposedly hard-wired to eat a lot of fat to preserve us over long fallow periods that no longer occur -- but a lot of people [not me] seem able to overcome that pretty easily.)

We are evolving, continuing to do so from generation to generation, usually in infinitesimal degree.

So I would postulate that there is a curve, and different people fall onto the curve in different places.

There may very well be as we are finding out by our growing knowledge of genetics since the HGP publishing of their findings, genetic links to obesity and other traits such as alcoholism. Not causes, but genetic predispositions.

I may very well, as might you, be of a sort whose genetic pattern predispositions us to have stronger impulses regarding instinctive behavior where our appetites are concerned. All manner of addictive behavior might have genetic predisposition issues. I mean, why would an otherwise rational person do something he cognitively knows, even after having been subjected to negative conditioning [bad results for the behavior, and socializing as to its negative repercussions before that], is going to be bad for him/her?

That might [I said might] explain a scenario where one person's reason is strong enough to overcome instinctual impulse and another's not. I am NOT, BTW, stating this means we discount personal responsibility for our own actions. I am simply talking scientific possibility.

[Thorn]

$20,000 is serious debt? Shit. I guess I can always marry Sallie May.

It depends on whether it is unsecured debt or not, and where the person fits on the overall socio-economic scale.

I think many of us tend to forget that the average income in the U.S. is just over $40Grand and that many live substaintially below that. A half years [or more] gross income in unsecured debt is most certainly serious.

[DaveNJ]

Man, are you in for a rude awakening after your first divorce. :D

I have one word for you... pre-nup.

I was not under the impression we were discussing marriage exclusively.

The problem:

Just try to find a SO who has all THREE of the following qualities:

1. LOVES to fuck.

2. Has LOTS of money.

3. Is VERY sexually attractive.

Consider yourself lucky to get any two in the same person.

IMHO, finding someone who has all three is like trying to find a needle in a haystack and I defy anyone, man or woman, to do it.


Note Axe's reference to a SO, not a wife.

Wait a minute... do you guys actually care how much money we make? I mean, barring the lazy-ass-money-grubbing-gold-digger cliche, a woman's financial situation is a discerning factor when choosing a mate?


Masquerade refers to a mate here (again, doesn't specify wife)

So how is it that we are only discussing marriage?

FWIW, my answer would change significantly if I felt we were only talking about marriage. And yes, I do realize the pre-nup is my friend.

[DaveNJ]

I don't know how you can argue the biological instinct part?



Agreed. Even without all the scientific evidence, it stands to reason that our impulses guide us to procreate and one tactic to that end is men spreading our seed in many different fields. Not that it is the only tactic available to us, but certainly a viable one.

[masquerade]

Masquerade refers to a mate here (again, doesn't specify wife)

So how is it that we are only discussing marriage?

FWIW, my answer would change significantly if I felt we were only talking about marriage. And yes, I do realize the pre-nup is my friend.

I don't normally date people I couldn't see myself married to. Maybe that's the difference. I don't view marriage as being this giant step away from what I'm involved in right now.

[Axe]

I don't normally date people I couldn't see myself married to. Maybe that's the difference.

It is. I dont think men see dating the same way.

[justlooking]

Could also be an age thing rather than a gender thing.

I don't know how old you are, Axe. But when I was of dating age, we viewed dating as something casual, a means to explore a multitude of potential partners, to get exposure to a variety of people. We viewed "going steady" and "moving in" as something beyond that -- but we also viewed "marriage" as something far beyond those other things, in terms of commitment.

I think it may be a result of the AIDS crisis that a lot of people who are younger than me (and I'll bet you) instead insist on this fairly intense serial monogamy. For example, to me, going to "couples counseling" with someone you're not married to is a joke: the whole point of not being married is that, if things seem like they're not working out, you can just leave. But I know lots of younger people who get that kind of counseling when one of these to-me-should-be-casual relationships isn't working.

[DaveNJ]

I don't normally date people I couldn't see myself married to. Maybe that's the difference. I don't view marriage as being this giant step away from what I'm involved in right now.

Fair enough. However, I took your post at face value. Apparently, I have different views on dating than you do. To each his own, I just didn't realize we were talking about marriage when the terms SO and mate were used.

[DaveNJ]

Could also be an age thing rather than a gender thing.

I don't know how old you are, Axe. But when I was of dating age, we viewed dating as something casual, a means to explore a multitude of potential partners, to get exposure to a variety of people. We viewed "going steady" and "moving in" as something beyond that -- but we also viewed "marriage" as something far beyond those other things, in terms of commitment.


I think you misunderstood Axe's post. He seems to be saying the same thing as you. In contrast to Masquerade, he is saying men see dating differently than women and will often date women who they don't see as marriage material. At least thats what I got out of it.

No harm, no foul. I was just looking for clarification because if it wasn't you who misunderstood, then I clearly did.

[justlooking]

I'm saying I don't think it's necessarily men v. women. I know younger men who see things the same way M does. I'm postulating that it may be an age thing more than a gender thing. And I'm also postulating that the difference may be whether you came of age, sexually, during the AIDS crisis (as opposed to before it, or way after it).

[Axe]

I think you misunderstood Axe's post. He seems to be saying the same thing as you. In contrast to Masquerade, he is saying men see dating differently than women and will often date women who they don't see as marriage material. At least thats what I got out of it.

That is what I meant. I think its a core difference between the sexes.

Let me suggest that we're jumping the gun by blaming it on age or AIDS. What M addressed is what kind of men she'll date. That happens first; the need for monogamy comes later, doesnt it?

In short - and oh man am I gerneralizing - women typically have the same attitude as M. They date, live with, have as a SO, whatever, only men they can see themselves married to.

Men will date any woman they can see themselves having sex with.

[Axe]

Btw, this thread has been in NP4P territory for some time now...

[justlooking]

True, but given the initial post, for all we know that isn't even thead drift.