Would you clarify that it's a date?

[brykster]

so...i've been getting dances for the past month from a dancer at Trop and we've really hit it off. tonight, we spent an hour making out in the club. i asked her if she'd like to go to dinner during the week and she said sure. we exchanged numbers yada, yada.

my problem is this, i'm interested in her as a friend, potential GF...whatever. i am NOT interested in seeing her as a provider. what do i do? do i clarify my intentions when i call to make the plans? do i just meet up and should the money question come into play, tell her at that point? this is kinda new territory for me. well, not really. i mean i have dated strippers as providers and had dated more seriously, a stripper from a low-mileage joint who had the kind of moral character where there was no need to be concerned of her intent; but this time, i'm not sure. i guess i know my intent and i'd like to know hers.

[masquerade]

Umm.... why don't you just broach the subject with her? Like, either call her or stop back into the club and talk to her about it. That would be my suggestion - better to not have all the ambiguity involved so that they two of you can just enjoy yourselves.

When you guys made out the other night, was it like, part of something else you were paying for?

[brykster]

When you guys made out the other night, was it like, part of something else you were paying for?

it started that way during three dances that included a nice slow handjob; but then we left the LD area and it continued at the bar a tad bit more discreetly; but still with some heavy mutually initiated DFK.

there would be no time for me to stop by the bar as i'm supposed to call her this week and she only works saturday. so i guess i would say something over the phone when i call to make plans. you wouldn't be offended by the insinuation? i wouldn't want to be back-handedly calling her a whore.

[Axe]

Its about time someone put up a thread like this!

This is all IMHO

My advice is to just follow-through on the dinner date. Then tell her your intentions to prevent abiguity, DEPENDING on how well or not well the dinner goes. Sorry M, its too soon for him to clear the air. He's committed to a dinner date, let him use that as an opportunity to decide if he should even bother to do that.

How well have you gotten to know her personally since you met her? For example: do you know how old she is and if she's been married before? Has she asked the same things about you?


Food for thought...

In general, what is her interest level in YOU personally rather than just your sexual needs?

Does she use your name frequently when she talks to you?

Has SHE ever asked you out?

[billyS]

Try making out with her WITHOUT paying her. That will answer your question. And do it before you waste your money on a diner date.

[aceman]

I say go for the dinner date and behave as two people do who are not in an economic relationship. If you treat her like a whore, she will expect to be paid. If you treat her like a gf, she will expect your house and half your money (oops, I digress).
I had this happen with a stripper from the tender trap many years ago. The first time I took her out, I took her straight back to my house to fuck and she asked for money at the end of the night. The second time, I took her out to dinner and we had a great time. I told her that I couldn't pay her to take her out on a date and she said "who is asking you for money?" We ended up banging like horny teenagers that night.

[Axe]

Try making out with her WITHOUT paying her. That will answer your question. And do it before you waste your money on a diner date.

Thats normally good advice, BillyS, but its too late for that now, he's already asked her to dinner.

brykster, is this dancer Brazilian?

[h_latimer]

Thats normally good advice, BillyS, but its too late for that now, he's already asked her to dinner.

brykster, is this dancer Brazilian?


Listen, if she's Brazilian, DFK means at the most that you do not gross her out. Not that she'd like to be your GF.

[brykster]

Its about time someone put up a thread like this!

This is all IMHO

My advice is to just follow-through on the dinner date. Then tell her your intentions to prevent abiguity, DEPENDING on how well or not well the dinner goes. Sorry M, its too soon for him to clear the air. He's committed to a dinner date, let him use that as an opportunity to decide if he should even bother to do that.

How well have you gotten to know her personally since you met her? For example: do you know how old she is and if she's been married before? Has she asked the same things about you?


Food for thought...

In general, what is her interest level in YOU personally rather than just your sexual needs?

Does she use your name frequently when she talks to you?

Has SHE ever asked you out?

i think i'm inclined to go this route. she offered me her number three weeks ago...i did not ask for it. don't know much personal info. i mean i asked (i always do) but i have forgotten what she said. last night, she asked me if i was married and if i have a GF. i also got the standard, grossly overstated "i missed you so much, honey."

she does not frequently use my name. in fact, much to my chagrin, when i gave her me number last night, she asked me what my name was....i got the sense that she knew; but was just making sure.

as i said, she did give me her number the first night we met which suggested interest in some type of outside meeting; but did not specify for what.

one thing that kinda weirded me out, considering my intentions, is when i was leaving, she grabbed my junk as we were saying goodbye...not a big deal; but it struck me as not such a sweet and loving act....whatever. i mean if a chick in a regular bar did the same thing, i wouldn't think twice; but since she's a stripper, i read a little into it.

BTW, she really seems to like my lil' guy. at the end of the handy, i tried to put it away and she was like, "please baby no, i want to feel your cock. keep it out" and she continued stroking me till time was up." i should also say, i find that extremely painful; but WTF...it ain't gonna kill me : )

[brykster]

Try making out with her WITHOUT paying her. That will answer your question. And do it before you waste your money on a diner date.

good idea; but as Axe pointed out, i won't have the opportunity.

[brykster]

Listen, if she's Brazilian, DFK means at the most that you do not gross her out. Not that she'd like to be your GF.

ha, ha, ha. very good point. yes, she is Brazilian; but she knows enough English to have a very simple conversation with my very limited Spanglish.

when i told her i was a psychologist, she said she was jealous because i look at pussy all day. i was like, "what the fuck is this chick talking about? does she know i'm a hardcore monger." than i realized she thought i was a gyno.

so i said, "no, no, no. mi trabaja con gente loco." that she understood.

[paulbunyon]

Bryk I agree with Axe as well. Take her out to dinner and see how the night is progressing, I wouldn't broach the subject of P4P/Non P4P until later. Use your instincts to gauge how its going and if she's into you as a potential NP4P fuck buddy. Since its "outside the club" her intentions will become more clear at some point in the night. Use the force young Brykster!! The worse that happens is that you are out a few bucks for dinner at the local Popeye's :)

Btw, I've been in both situations outside the club with strippers and even when they ask for money after the "date", in my experience, its a bargain from what they would ask at the SC. For example, one time I took a gal from Rah's back to her place in Newark, money was not brought up. Fucked the shit out of her, and when I was leaving she asked for "something." I gave her whatever I had in my wallet at the time-- $20 or $40 bucks.

[trigeek]

All great suggestions. The one that I met offered to pay for the diner in Manhattan. Times have changed.

Good luck & have fun while it last. Don't get to attached. Remember once a Ho always a Ho.

See what that Ho in the Post & NY News did to her husband. She fucked an inmate under her care. I guess she was trying to help him. Hubby with the cash I bet isn't too happy with this HO! Sorry I left the subject at hand, but it's all relative.

[Axe]

I hate to be a wet blanket, but all this might be jumping the gun a bit. Worry about all this stuff when the dinner date actually happens.


...she said she was jealous because i look at pussy all day.

The jealousy comment is a good sign, even if she briefly misunderstood what you do at work. If things go the way you want with her, plan on NEVER going to the club you met her in...unless its ONLY to see her to say hello or just hang out. Also plan on avoiding ALL other clubs that have dancers that also work in the club you met her in. Dancers do talk to each other, and if one of her friends (or maybe not even a friend) spots you at another club...well, you get the picture.

See what you've gotten yourself into? LOL

[brykster]

even when they ask for money after the "date", in my experience, its a bargain from what they would ask at the SC.

yeah, i was hooking up with a dancer from Cabaret and getting the whole shebang in her apartment for 40 bucks a session. come to think of it, my intentions were the same as they are in this case; but it didn't really bother me at all at the time that it turned into a provider relationship. i stopped having to buy dinner and make conversation and it was actually a lot cheaper in the long rum...plus, we really didn't have much in common....surprise, surprise.

[brykster]

The jealousy comment is a good sign, even if she briefly misunderstood what you do at work. If things go the way you want with her, plan on NEVER going to the club you met her in...unless its ONLY to see her to say hello or just hang out. Also plan on avoiding ALL other clubs that have dancers that also work in the club you met her in. Dancers do talk to each other, and if one of her friends (or maybe not even a friend) spots you at another club...well, you get the picture.

thanks for the encouragement; but you are right, all of Paterson would become off limits: Tropicana, 5th Ave, Cabaret, Dr. Cave...basically any place that uses those agencies that bus chicks up from Newark....SCARY. i'd have to start going to Rah Rah's again, yichhh.

oh well....there's always braking up : )

[lamont5123]

bykster,

Go with the flow. And have fun. One can overanalyze a situation so much that they won't enjoy the fun moments when they come.

There are all kinds of relationships, May-December, interracial, intercontinental, uneven, equal, horrible and tranquil. The two of you may become regular sex partners, dinner buddies, close platonic pals or a combination of these.

Go to dinner. And act as if it is a real date. When you asked her out to eat, that is what you meant. Enjoy yourself and by all means, enjoy her company.

Because a dancer is adept at using their wiles to rein in they prey and make their living, you will have to be cautious. But not on that dinner date.

[Toreador]

Brykster...
I've had similar situations. When you call her tell her you would love to have dinner with her this week; BUT OFF THE CLOCK. Her response will tell you what her true feelings are. Good Luck.

[brykster]

Brykster...
I've had similar situations. When you call her tell her you would love to have dinner with her this week; BUT OFF THE CLOCK. Her response will tell you what her true feelings are. Good Luck.

interesting...but i don't think she'd understand the euphemism. her English ain't that great.

i know what it'll happen...it will play out like a date and at the moment of truth, all these ideas will go through my head. my main concern is this, will she say up front when things become physical that she wants to be paid or will i be dropping her off or leaving her apartment or whatever and i'll be surprised by "hey, i could really use some dough.

with the girl from Cabaret, we went to Applebies (class all the way) and afterward she invited me up. we were making out and i was fingering her and just before she put my cock in her mouth she says "you know, i'm gonna need a little money for this." anyways, i felt weird and confused and couldn't get up. so after twenty minutes of her sucking away on limp dick, i just bagged it and made up some excuse. days after, i thought about and i was like, WTF, cheap sex a decent alternative to a strip club and went for it. i guess in the days following the first date, i had to modify my expectations and see things for what they were. i'd like to avoid what happened that first night with Grace, with this one.

[openheads]

I'm just reiterating what others have said, but the only thing you can do is just play it by ear.
And Grace from Cabaret is all about the money, all the time. I avoid her like the plague when I'm at Cab. She highly irritates me. Maybe this one is different, who knows. Just give it a shot.

[brykster]

I'm just reiterating what others have said, but the only thing you can do is just play it by ear.
And Grace from Cabaret is all about the money, all the time. I avoid her like the plague when I'm at Cab. She highly irritates me. Maybe this one is different, who knows. Just give it a shot.

oh, the Grace i'm talking about hasn't been to Cabaret in over a year. i wouldn't pay a dime to bang the one you are talking about...yichhh. no, my Grace was Puerto Rican, born and raised in P-Town, skinny, about 4'10" with huge tits. she was fun : )

[openheads]

My apologies then.

[kerpal68]

brykster, I was in the same exact boat 2 months ago. I was going back and forth in my head with the same thing your thinking about as well. Well actually the whole time I assumed/figured it was going to be a legit date because I could tell she was really into me. My friends kept planting the negativity seeds though because they were all played by random strippers and fell for it. Well do what I did, just take one for the team. She hinted we should hang out one night, I'm thinking she wants to go shopping, she offered for us to go somewhere for lunch. I brought extra money just in case I was getting played. Well to make a long story short a lunch date turned out to a 4-5hr hangout and when the moment of truth came, when I dropped her off she leaned over for a nice dfk and got out of the car. Never paused or hinted to $$$. We have been hanging out for the past 2 months, all is well its more so like a "friends with benefits" type of deal more so then a bf/gf.

So I guess go into the date open minded, expect the worst but you may be surprised in the end. Good luck ;)

[brykster]

brykster, I was in the same exact boat 2 months ago. I was going back and forth in my head with the same thing your thinking about as well. Well actually the whole time I assumed/figured it was going to be a legit date because I could tell she was really into me. My friends kept planting the negativity seeds though because they were all played by random strippers and fell for it. Well do what I did, just take one for the team. She hinted we should hang out one night, I'm thinking she wants to go shopping, she offered for us to go somewhere for lunch. I brought extra money just in case I was getting played. Well to make a long story short a lunch date turned out to a 4-5hr hangout and when the moment of truth came, when I dropped her off she leaned over for a nice dfk and got out of the car. Never paused or hinted to $$$. We have been hanging out for the past 2 months, all is well its more so like a "friends with benefits" type of deal more so then a bf/gf.

So I guess go into the date open minded, expect the worst but you may be surprised in the end. Good luck ;)

thanks for the sound advice. glad to hear your thing worked out.

[kilroywashere]

brykster, these girls work for a living, they may tell you anything to get money. "yeah lets have dinnier" "I love you no shit buy me drink".
most of these ladys have bills and family that they send money to.
even if you go on a dinner date and no money is mention it will come up.
Play it by ear if the date happens enjoy it and make sure she does to.
stay in control she may just need some one to help her with some bills.
as you know one hand does wash the other one.
have fun. but dont forget where you met her.
K

[brykster]

brykster, these girls work for a living, they may tell you anything to get money. "yeah lets have dinnier" "I love you no shit buy me drink".
most of these ladys have bills and family that they send money to.
even if you go on a dinner date and no money is mention it will come up.
Play it by ear if the date happens enjoy it and make sure she does to.
stay in control she may just need some one to help her with some bills.
as you know one hand does wash the other one.
have fun. but dont forget where you met her.
K

i can't believe that anyone who dances is simply incapable of being in a loving relationship...but i've been wrong before. one thing is for certain, i am not interested in being a sugar daddy. that's how my relationship with Grace ended. she called me one night and asked if i could drop her off a $20 on my way to work the next morning, my answer was, "i don't think this is working out for me anymore."

believe me, my biggest fear isn't getting played, it's being overly cautious to the point that i can't enjoy myself...but i appreciate the advice.

but you are right. even if things start out as a relationship, at some point, i'll be supporting a family of 10 in Brazil while the dancer i won't let work, grows fat and ugly....YAY!!!!

[openheads]

Thats my problem with these Brazilian dancers. Even if their intentions are true, getting involved means partaking in the American immigrant experience. Which includes, as you pointed out brykster, sending money back home. There is no way you could be in a relationship with these women & NOT fork over the dough. I simply refuse to be the financial rock for people I have never met. Compound that with the fact that I met her at a go-go bar & the seeds of doubt have been sewn (at least for me). There are way too many variables involved in the equation. Relationships are difficult enough to sustain without all these other, very real, factors piled on top.
If she wants to keep it casual & have fun, great. Other than that, I can't see myself getting involved. I'm not looking for love at the titty bar.

[Gavvy Cravath]

Sometimes you just "know", brykster. I dated a few strippers back in the day, but they weren't providing services at the joints tat I met them (not to me, at least). I was just the guy that tipped them the dollar bills.

I don't know, but h-latimer makes a good point with the "Brazilian" thing. Kissing means something diferent to them, they aren't skeeved out by you.

I have no problem with guys that date providers. That's cool. But dating a girl who "provided" for you would kind of blur the lines, don't you think?

Gavy

[justlooking]

To me, it's always clear that it's NOT a date (but rather a "date").

Which lent added poignance to the following exchange with a stripper who had just broken up with her longtime boyfriend.

We were sitting in some East Village bar (we had made a date to meet that evening just for drinks, no sex).

I'm blathering on about some topic that is no doubt of great interest to me, even if to no one else.

She's staring hard at me, but with sort of a blank look that makes clear she's not listening to a word I'm saying.

When I stop, she doesn't say anything.

Then:

STRIPPER: I could never become really involved with you. You're too complicated.

[un4given]

It's never clear on the first date what the woman's up to. God knows, I've dated perfectly decent women whose expectation was for me to "gift" them with a $60 handbag after the second date. I've rejected all of them, except one, who i thought was well worth $60 every now and then just for the sex alone. But then I never forgot the fact that she used me for money, and expected more of her accordingly.

My suggestion is to go to dinner, and dont spend more on her than you would with a gf you'd pick up at, say, a 7/11. If she stays with u, good. If not, then oh well. But I wouldn't have a "talk" with her about it explicitly. When it comes to talking, a woman will always win. Better to just play it out, keep firm on your spending limits, and see where it leads.

[traveller]

Wow! ... Giving advice to the Brykster ... daunting ...

First of all, relish the feeling! It is always great when one is in the initial glow of a possible long-term, pleasant realtionship.

I know that I am not in the mainstream with my opinions, but I truly believe that honest communication is the best approach. Unless I mis-understood you, this is someone in whom you have interest for more than sexual gratification.* That is the right starting point for clearing the air about expectations.

Meeting a significant other in the type of haunts that we frequent is fraught with opportunities for mis-understandings. All involved have to understand that. ... Earn some points for recognizing it, admitting it, and attempting to be sure that her expectations are not misaligned.

Travel safely!

*I am ignoring that you claim to have forgotten the personal information that she shared. We guys often suffer from SRS - Semen Retention Syndrome - that interferes with proper brain function.

[Axe]

STRIPPER: I could never become really involved with you. You're too complicated.

TRANSLATION: You're smarter than me, so I'd never be able to bullshit you like I can with most men.

[openheads]

^^^^^^^^^^ HA, yep.

[justlooking]

Actually, I think it was, "you sleep with too many women, so you'll never be able to give me the undying devotion I demand in my real-life relationships (even though I was sleeping with you during the last one)."

[Axe]

Actually, I think it was, "you sleep with too many women, so you'll never be able to give me the undying devotion I demand in my real-life relationships (even though I was sleeping with you during the last one)."

And she thinks you're complicated?

[justlooking]

Lack of self-awareness in a sex worker.

Unprec****ted.

[Axe]

Lack of self-awareness in a sex worker.

Unprec****ted.

LOL, right.


One adjustment, though:


Avoidance of self-awareness.

[brykster]

at this point, i'm not even sure i'm going to call. i may or may not...i just don't know. i thought about it today and most of the time, for me, it's the thrill of the chase. i literally have between 75 and 100 dancer's phone numbers and the truth is, i've only ever called two.

thinking about it, perhaps a low price provider relationship is all i really want. at this point, it's more about ego. i want her to like me more than just another custi; but the truth is, as traveler pointed out, i don't even remember the personal stuff she told me, meaning she's probably not all that important to me anyway...plus there's the language barrier shit and supporting a family of ten who i don't even know. i guess having this attitude is the best way to be because i now have no expectations and couldn't possibly get disappointed...unless she robs me and cuts my throat...that'd suck.

[openheads]

Call her, why not???????? If you can maintain a casual relationship & have fun, more power to you. Just don't get caught up. I have been through the "freebiee" sex phase in SC's. I went a good 6-8 months without paying for sex from strippers (it was all ego on my part & became too much after a while). I even fucked strippers I wasn't even attracted to just to say I did it. Sometimes it works out, sometimes not (in my experience). You're the one making it out to be more than it is. Feel her out & make an educated decision. If she wants money after you do the do, just make sure the amount was worth less than the hassle. If not, cut her loose (simple as that). Just make sure to keep your feelings in the front of your mind. Constantly question them. If that becomes too much to handle, jump ship.
If it turns out to be something more (Your call), run with it. Who knows, stranger things have happened.

[brykster]

honestly, my main issue is how hanging out with this girl will fit into my mongering time and schedule. dating her in an "ambiguously compensated" situation would take me away from a club. part of this concern is frugal; but the other part is that i am fearful of giving in to an addiction (as if i haven't already) to the point that it does some significant damage to my lifestyle. so for this reason, spending time with her means not going to a club...not a huge deal; but then there is the fact that she lives all the way down in F*ing Newark, an area that's out of the way, unfamiliar and can be downright scary. i guess if things don't work out, i could always check out Watch.

all this being said, i'm still on the fence. what'll matter most is how horny i am today after work. will i need instant gratification or will i be able to play games for an hour or two prior.

[LorenzoDeMedici]

WOW this thread is perfect. I just went aboard the same boat. Bryk, I would suggest a double date but a lil too far.

[trigeek]

Call her, why not???????? If you can maintain a casual relationship & have fun, more power to you. Just don't get caught up. I have been through the "freebiee" sex phase in SC's. I went a good 6-8 months without paying for sex from strippers (it was all ego on my part & became too much after a while). I even fucked strippers I wasn't even attracted to just to say I did it. Sometimes it works out, sometimes not (in my experience). You're the one making it out to be more than it is. Feel her out & make an educated decision. If she wants money after you do the do, just make sure the amount was worth less than the hassle. If not, cut her loose (simple as that). Just make sure to keep your feelings in the front of your mind. Constantly question them. If that becomes too much to handle, jump ship.
If it turns out to be something more (Your call), run with it. Who knows, stranger things have happened.

Great advice. You couldn't have said it any better.

[brykster]

called two hours ago....no answer....left a message.
seems this whole discussion may be a moot point.
oh well, looks like i'm going to an SC for a handy after work....and i couldn't be any more relieved : )
cheap meaningless sex with no expectations...what could be better (free meaningful sex WITH expectations?...debateable.)

[Axe]

called two hours ago....no answer....left a message.
seems this whole discussion may be a moot point.

But keep following through, bryk. You asked her and she said 'yes.' Make sure SHE follows through, even if it takes a while. I'm seeing a Brazilian stripper on ocassion right now. Sometimes two weeks go by without talking to her, but when I call her, she's good to go. I dont give a shit about what she's doing when I'm not with her, and she doesnt ask about what I'm doing then either. Nearly a perfect* deal!




*Perfect would be if she was a nymphomaniac and owned a liquor store.

[brykster]

But keep following through, bryk. You asked her and she said 'yes.' Make sure SHE follows through, even if it takes a while. I'm seeing a Brazilian stripper on ocassion right now. Sometimes two weeks go by without talking to her, but when I call her, she's good to go. I dont give a shit about what she's doing when I'm not with her, and she doesnt ask about what I'm doing then either. Nearly a perfect* deal!




*Perfect would be if she was a nymphomaniac and owned a liquor store.

don't think i'll call again this week. i'll go see her at the club on saturday and ask her what's up. we'll sit down and have drink; but no dance.

[Axe]

don't think i'll call again this week. i'll go see her at the club on saturday and ask her what's up. we'll sit down and have drink; but no dance.

You shouldnt call again until after she calls you back. You left a message, and she has your number. The ball is in her court.

[kerpal68]

But keep following through, bryk. You asked her and she said 'yes.' Make sure SHE follows through, even if it takes a while. I'm seeing a Brazilian stripper on ocassion right now. Sometimes two weeks go by without talking to her, but when I call her, she's good to go. I dont give a shit about what she's doing when I'm not with her, and she doesnt ask about what I'm doing then either. Nearly a perfect* deal!




*Perfect would be if she was a nymphomaniac and owned a liquor store.


I couldn't agree more. The pause between talks help more often then not. I make it a point not to call until I am called, it helps in the long run ;)

Test messages are better then voic*****s if you ask me.

[Thorn]

believe me, my biggest fear isn't getting played, it's being overly cautious to the point that i can't enjoy myself...

Than don't do that.

Look. You are a big boy and know the ropes. If she wants money you'll know what to do. If she wants a sugar daddy, you'll know what to do.

If she just wants fun you'll know what to do.

Just have an open mind, be prepared for all eventualities, and take and handle the rest as it comes.

Do I get an honorary shingle now? :)

[Thorn]

There is no way you could be in a relationship with these women & NOT fork over the dough.


Truly?

W'at, de got some Jedi mind trick thingee of sumthin'? :)

[Thorn]

at this point, it's more about ego. i want her to like me more than just another custi;

Dude... don't over think it and keep the ego as close to out of the equation as possible.

Be polite. Be friendly. Be appreciative. All this you can do while still being self-assured and playing your cards close to your vest.

This is, especially if you are married, all about biological imperatives, NOT ego gratification.

Lose sight of that and you create problems for yourself.

[and if married or serious g-f, for gawd sake man, no real names and nothing that back tracks to your job, real home, etc and so forth... just in case you have the rare, and very dangerous, bunny boiler on your hands]

[Thorn]

so for this reason, spending time with her means not going to a club...not a huge deal; but then there is the fact that she lives all the way down in F*ing Newark...

IF you don't want to "date" her introduce her to your friend "Thorn".

Though if she is Brazilian, dances in NNJ, and lives in Newark I probably already have. :)

[masquerade]

honestly, my main issue is how hanging out with this girl will fit into my mongering time and schedule. dating her in an "ambiguously compensated" situation would take me away from a club. part of this concern is frugal; but the other part is that i am fearful of giving in to an addiction (as if i haven't already) to the point that it does some significant damage to my lifestyle. so for this reason, spending time with her means not going to a club...not a huge deal; but then there is the fact that she lives all the way down in F*ing Newark, an area that's out of the way, unfamiliar and can be downright scary. i guess if things don't work out, i could always check out Watch.

all this being said, i'm still on the fence. what'll matter most is how horny i am today after work. will i need instant gratification or will i be able to play games for an hour or two prior.

"mongering schedule".... lol.

[brykster]

Though if she is Brazilian, dances in NNJ, and lives in Newark I probably already have. :)

well, this is encouraging....but, in any event, here's your honorary shingle. now you get to be an over-analyzing, obsessive just like me : )

[brykster]

"mongering schedule".... lol.

did i mention i am obsessive. my schedule for the past 2 years has been tuesday and thursday afternoons as well as saturday night in Paterson with sunday early evening in Ct. thrown in for good luck. doesn't leave a lot of time for legitimate dating.

[masquerade]

did i mention i am obsessive. my schedule for the past 2 years has been tuesday and thursday afternoons as well as saturday night in Paterson with sunday early evening in Ct. thrown in for good luck. doesn't leave a lot of time for legitimate dating.

Uh.... maybe you should do something to change that? (if you do indeed feel you'd like to be doing some legitimate dating, which it appears you do.)

[Axe]

Uh.... maybe you should do something to change that?

Yeah, keep your schedule the same, but change some of your mongering venues.

[masquerade]

I think a strip club might be one of the worst places to meet people for relationship purposes. It's sad when it becomes the only environment in which a person feels they can relate intimately with another human being. (not that I'm implying that's the case with Bryster, but since we're on the topic now I just thought I'd offer my opinion)

[brykster]

Yeah, keep your schedule the same, but change some of your mongering venues.

what would you suggest?

[Axe]

what would you suggest?

Off the top of my head:

What other clubs have you heard of that you would like to check out?

Here's your chance.

[Axe]

I think a strip club might be one of the worst places to meet people for relationship purposes. It's sad when it becomes the only environment in which a person feels they can relate intimately with another human being. (not that I'm implying that's the case with Bryster, but since we're on the topic now I just thought I'd offer my opinion)


Your concern is understandable, M. I admit it is something that happens, but I dont think veterans go looking for it. It usually finds them.

[brykster]

Your concern is understandable, M. I admit it is something that happens, but I dont think veterans go looking for it. It usually finds them.

this it true. i am certainly not going to clubs with the intent of finding an SO. that's what giging with my band if for : )

[Axe]

this it true. i am certainly not going to clubs with the intent of finding an SO. that's what giging with my band if for : )

Chicks who dig musicians vs strippers? Hmmmm.

That might be the one place to find a SO that is worse than stripclubs.

(Just kidding. Sort of)

[brykster]

Off the top of my head:

What other clubs have you heard of that you would like to check out?

Here's your chance.

i guess Players club...but that sounds like a rich man's game. i also thought about Watch down in Newark; but from what i hear it's pretty much the same group as P-Town.

honestly, chances are i will not try too many new places. now and then, when i do some investigation, i am invariably disappointed by what i find (Temptations, High Beams, Flamingo's Centerfolds, Guy's, Ragtime, Johnny A's, Sunrise, Twins, etc.....) i'm convinced that i am in the right places for me.

i do miss Mickey Dee's; but decided several months ago that it was simply not worth the risk; and have forced myself to stay away. are there no other place, the way Rah Rah's used to be?

[justlooking]

See, brykster's problem is that when he's not in his band, he's a psychiatrist.

My experience is that most women who like band guys prefer it if they're otherwise unemployed and uneducated.

[Axe]

See, brykster's problem is that when he's not in his band, he's a psychiatrist.

My experience is that most women who like band guys prefer it if they're otherwise unemployed and uneducated.


Uh-oh. Strike one, brykster. (LOL)

[brykster]

See, brykster's problem is that when he's not in his band, he's a psychiatrist.

My experience is that most women who like band guys prefer it if they're otherwise unemployed and uneducated.

if i was a psychiatrist, i'd be sitting by your side at Scores. i am merely a psychologist....perhaps a 3 to 400K per year difference.

[justlooking]

Sorry. Didn't mean to insult you.

[brykster]

Sorry. Didn't mean to insult you.

you didn't...you just made me sad : (

[openheads]

brykster, I have read your Temptation's reviews. I don't get your aversion to this bar (no disrespect). Even when I have come up empty, she has given her # for take out (every time). It's a sure thing as long as you don't act like a maladjusted weirdo. Maybe you just want the hear & now (I can understand that), but other than a very select few places in north jersey, this is about as close of a sure thing as you can get (with some decent talent too).

[kerpal68]

On a side note I finally stepped into temptations. All I can say is...they aren't shy there :X

[brykster]

brykster, I have read your Temptation's reviews. I don't get your aversion to this bar (no disrespect). Even when I have come up empty, she has given her # for take out (every time). It's a sure thing as long as you don't act like a maladjusted weirdo. Maybe you just want the hear & now (I can understand that), but other than a very select few places in north jersey, this is about as close of a sure thing as you can get (with some decent talent too).

maybe it's time to try it again. BTW, i am looking for there here and now. as a general rule, take out does not interest me.

[openheads]

I can understand the no take out thing. But even then, some of the take out offers were for when the bar closed (that night). Not a bad deal when she offers it to you a 1/2 Hour before the bar closes.
The first time I was there, the sex was from a straight whore who did not give a fuck. After that, I have had "extras" from dancers that were hot, but only after a couple of visits. Michelle (Brazilian, seen her at Dr. Caves, big j****) gave me a BJ in the regular booth (not VIP). The mileage seems to keep going up for me the longer I visit. Some type of investment seems necessary, YMMV.

[Thorn]

I think a strip club might be one of the worst places to meet people for relationship purposes. It's sad when it becomes the only environment in which a person feels they can relate intimately with another human being.

Agreed. In triplicate.

[Thorn]

this it true. i am certainly not going to clubs with the intent of finding an SO. that's what giging with my band if for : )

Dude, if you have a band, no job and few prospects of getting one, long [particularly blond] hair and treat women badly you should be dating strippers left and right.

You are, like, their favorite thing to obsess over.

They can date you. Give you a lot of their money. Let you sponge off them until they get sick of it and find your carbon copy to do it all over again. And tell all their custies, the bouncers, the DJ and the bartenders and the other dancers [all of whom, women and men alike, would probably treat them better than he] all about how big a prick you are, until their ears are bleeding from it.

:D

[OK... not all dancers are like this... but enough of them to make it a stereotype]

[brykster]

They can date you. Give you a lot of their money. Let you sponge off them until they get sick of it and find your carbon copy to do it all over again. And tell all their custies, the bouncers, the DJ and the bartenders and the other dancers [all of whom, women and men alike, would probably treat them better than he] all about how big a prick you are, until their ears are bleeding from it.

AHHHH...dare to dream.

[Axe]

I can understand the no take out thing. But even then, some of the take out offers were for when the bar closed (that night). Not a bad deal when she offers it to you a 1/2 Hour before the bar closes.
The first time I was there, the sex was from a straight whore who did not give a fuck. After that, I have had "extras" from dancers that were hot, but only after a couple of visits. Michelle (Brazilian, seen her at Dr. Caves, big j****) gave me a BJ in the regular booth (not VIP). The mileage seems to keep going up for me the longer I visit. Some type of investment seems necessary, YMMV.


Aha. The suggestion to find (re-find?) other venues may have paid off for bryk already.


(Axe dislocates his arm while patting himself on the back)

[justme]

I think a strip club might be one of the worst places to meet people for relationship purposes.

The rest of the world would find the need to even express this opinion to be nothing short of amazing.

[brykster]

The rest of the world would find the need to even express this opinion to be nothing short of amazing.

not just the rest of world...

[Axe]

I think a strip club might be one of the worst places to meet people for relationship purposes.


Regardless of the fact that a noticeable number of strippers met their SO where they work.

[masquerade]

Regardless of the fact that a noticeable number of strippers met their SO where they work.

Not a good idea.

[Axe]

Not a good idea.

Sort of like the 'rule' that it isnt a good idea to date someone at/from work? (a 'rule' I've broken). Almost by definition, strippers are rule-breakers, M.

[justlooking]

Maybe not a good idea because of the kind of boyfriends you find that way?

[justlooking]

Like maybe she's saying not that it's not a good idea in theory, but that it's not a good idea in practice?

[masquerade]

Like maybe she's saying not that it's not a good idea in theory, but that it's not a good idea in practice?

Yeah, both.

I know strippers are rule breakers, but I know from personal experience and experiences that women close to me have gone through that it's one rule that exists for a good reason.

[Axe]

Yeah, both.

I know strippers are rule breakers, but I know from personal experience and experiences that women close to me have gone through that it's one rule that exists for a good reason.


Most rules exist for good reasons. I'm not disagreeing with you, M.

What I'm saying is that my experience tells me there are plenty of strippers who break that rule. I've also met more than a few who dont even seem to be aware of it. When someone spends a large part of their time at work, where else do you expect them to meet people?

[Axe]

And I'm not just talking about customers as potential SOs. I'm also including men who work in the club.

[justlooking]

Even better.

[masquerade]

Yeah...lol...dating a strip club bouncer or dj seems like a much better idea!

Axe, strippers have plenty of time away from work to meet guys. Pretty women don't have a hard time running into men anywhere they go who would love to take them out to dinner - it's not like the customers or staff at their job are their only options. Sure, it's an easy and obvious option, but it's also a terrible one that never seems to work out for anybody.

[Axe]

Yeah...lol...dating a strip club bouncer or dj seems like a much better idea!

I didnt say its a better idea or even a good one. I just said it happens; and it happens frequently enough to be easily noticeable.

Axe, strippers have plenty of time away from work to meet guys. Pretty women don't have a hard time running into men anywhere they go who would love to take them out to dinner - it's not like the customers or staff at their job are their only options.

No offense, but the kind of stripper you are is clearly showing here. You're a student, right? You're just passing through the profession until you move on to bigger and better things, right? You meet a cute guy at a bookstore and when it develops into a relationship, you (and he) can honestly say that you're a student when you meet his friends, parents, whatever. You (and he) might even tell some of them you're a stripper, depending on how you (and he) expect those people to receive news of that kind about the gf of their friend/son/co-worker/neighbor/whatever.

On the other hand, the strippers who will probably be strippers for as long as they can manage it - the ones who will never go to med school or law school - dont see things that way, M. When they meet a cute guy at a bookstore (it happens) she (and he) will not be able to tell some of her (and his) friends/parents/co-workers/boss(!) that she's a stripper. (btw, I know some stripers who have been in the professon for years, and to this day their family doesnt know about it!) Saying she's a 'student' or some other kind of BS story requires a degree of inconvenience that very few people have the patience for over the long-term, to say the least. The list of problems is shorter when their SO is either in the business or, dare I say it, a customer who already has a history of stripper gf's; the 'shock' to his friends/family/whatever has already passed.


Sure, it's an easy and obvious option, but it's also a terrible one that never seems to work out for anybody.

I agree, but not everyone has some of the advantages you do, M.

[Thorn]

......

[Thorn]

Yeah...lol...dating a strip club bouncer or dj seems like a much better idea!


I have to say I mean ABSOLUTELY no offense by this...

but... [you knew there was going to be a but]

that works the other way around as well.

When I bounced in strip-clubs I had occasion to date a dancer or two.

Never have I had the drama from a female presence in my life the way I experienced it when I was romantically involved with a dancer.

I don't know why I thought it wouldn't be so. I mean, on the stage, drama. In the dressing room, drama. Tales they brought from outside the club into the club, all about the drama in their lives. I don't know what came over me.

Though I remained in the clubs, first as a solo bouncer and than as an owner of a company hiring out teams of bouncers to clubs, I promised myself never to date people I worked with anymore. Best thing I could have done.

I'd HANG with a dancer just about any time... Cool people to hang with.

Date, romantically? Never again.

Thorn [who is allergic to drama... break out in hives... ugly thing to see... :)]

[Axe]

I don't know why I thought it wouldn't be so. I mean, on the stage, drama. In the dressing room, drama. Tales they brought from outside the club into the club, all about the drama in their lives. I don't know what came over me.

I'm sure you knew all about the down-sides to romantically dating a stripper, Thorn, but you did it anyway. Thats what happens when men and women are attracted to each other: the 'rules' are superceded by biology. Drama or not. Bad choice or not. DJ or not. Bouncer or not. Stripper or not.

None of us has as much control over who we fall for as we like to think we do.


Thats my point.

[masquerade]

Axe -

I understand what you're saying here, but I'd much rather take the long list of inconveniences (it's really not that long - comparatively) that come with dating someone who isn't involved in the industry over the genuinely long list of problems that come along with dating someone who is. I would rather date someone who is open minded but hates strip clubs than someone who is jealous and immature but really into strip clubs anyday.

By the way - yes, I am a student. However, I have been a student for many years - having decided to go back to school after changing my mind recently in regards to my career goals. As a result, I've had to hide my stripping lifestyle from my family for several years now - and I am definitely the least patient person I know! Just like the situation I mentioned above, the inconviences involved with having to travel outside the comfort zone that stripping provides are just really worth it to me. Why in the world would anyone in their right mind want to get so comfortable with that lifestyle that they'd want their most intimate relationships to revolve around it? Even it were a healthy arena, which inarguably it isn't, it's so very encapsulated. It seems that if given a choice before meeting the man, most strippers would decide to date outside that realm. I don't think that the problem is that most of them don't have a choice, it's that they come to believe that dating within the system is actually an ok option - and that their situation with the guy they like is different, that it might work out ok despite the odds, yada yada yada...

All in all, I think the list of potential problems is a lot longer when a stripper dates a customer/club employee rather than if she has to lie to friends and family occasionally in order to date someone outside that whole scene. It's not like telling everyone you're a student is you're only "out", anyway. I work with one woman who uses her job waitressing at Chili's as a cover, and a couple other ones who are real estate agents on the side. I had a good friend for awhile who was a hospice nurse and told most of the people she knew that she'd picked up a couple night shifts for extra money. You do what you gotta do.

[masquerade]

I have to say I mean ABSOLUTELY no offense by this...

but... [you knew there was going to be a but]

that works the other way around as well.


I'd HANG with a dancer just about any time... Cool people to hang with.

Date, romantically? Never again.

]

Dude, none taken! I probably wouldn't want my future son dating a stripper romantically, either. Not after the shit I've heard/seen.

There have certainly been times that I've wished I could just chill out with some of the guys I've met while I was working - I've actually met some pretty cool people - but I still know that dating them would be a terrible idea.

[Axe]

Axe -

I understand what you're saying here,

I've only covered half of it, so I'll explain further.

First, you should understand that everything you mentioned to support your view of this being a 'bad idea' in your last post is your personal preference given your situation is life. Yes, there are plenty of strippers who are also students, real estate agents, waitresses, etc. But, there are also many who are not, and lots of them dont like being a chameleon in their private lives.

You see, what we're talking about is not a matter of preferences. Its a matter of biology and spontaneity. Given a choice, most men would rather not date a stripper either; the stereotypes are well-known. Men just give in faster to their biological drives. Its how we're wired. Women hesitate on things like that. Its how they're wired.


I would rather date someone who is open minded but hates strip clubs than someone who is jealous and immature but really into strip clubs anyday.

There is no shortage of bad choices in men outside of stripclubs and, from what I know, there is no shortage of strippers making those bad choices. Funny you should say you want someone who is open-minded when yours seems to be shut tight as a drum when it comes to dating 'in-house.' I would hate to be the honest, hard-working, college student/bouncer who falls for you at the club we work at. You've got the door shut on me before I even say 'hello' to you.

[justlooking]

Maybe it's more a guideline than a rule.

[justlooking]

(Although, in all my years of stripclubgoing, I personally haven't met that bouncer yet.)

[Axe]

(Although, in all my years of stripclubgoing, I personally haven't met that bouncer yet.)


I dont mean for this to be a 'my anecdotal evidence is better than yours' kind of discussion, JL. My first point was that what M sees as so out-of-the-question seems to happen on a regular basis. My second is that its just weird that strippers, who tend to be care-free risk-takers and rule-breakers, can be so regimented in their thinking when it comes to such a basic thing as sizing up potential SOs.

Worrying more about WHERE they meet a man they might like rather than actually making some sound judgements about his character is putting the cart before the horse, if not just plain stupid. Its living by stereotypes and thats something strippers should be wary of since they are on the receiving end of it so much.

[justlooking]

I don't want to speak for M, but I don't think she's saying it's out-of-the-question. Obviously, she knows it happens all the time. I think I can glean from her posts that she's done it herself. So I think she's saying that, based on her experience and what she's seen of others', it's a mistake.

In discussions like this, I think it's useful to separate the normative from the descriptive. Now you're getting all descriptive, whereas M is talking normative. And I think it's sort of unfair to charge her with naivety, as you're sort of doing. Cuz she isn't denying the plain facts so much as she's decrying them.

It's like, when we talked in that other thread about strippers leading guys on to get their money, M could have said, "I don't see what you're saying. That's what happens all the time in strip clubs." I don't think any of us would have found that very satisfactory. Instead, she said, "I used to do that, but I realized it was wrong, so I stopped. Now you've pointed out another way I was doing it [lying about not having an SO], so I've stopped that, too."

Here, too, as a descriptive point, women in strip clubs frequently date guys they meet in strip clubs. No one's denying that. As a normative point, I tend to agree that it's usually a bad idea.

[Axe]

Fair enough, JL.


The whole problem would go away, along with the need for any distinction between descriptive and normative, if women would pay attention to WHO a man really is rather than WHERE they meet him and under what circumstances. Men are guilty of this too, probably more so.

[justlooking]

You know, it's ironic.

I don't know this, but I imagine a big part of the problem a stripper has in dating guys who work in or frequent strip clubs is that they know what goes on in them. Whereas a guy who doesn't work in or frequent a club would be more likely to assume that there's no sex in them.

[Gavvy Cravath]

This is a very interesting thread. Brykster gets a lot of "props" from me for starting it. I might have missed something, but did he ever follow through with his "date"?

I some aspects, I can definitely relate to this topic. I have stated over and over on this board that I date cocktail waitresses. The hours are perfect for me, I have a lot of free time while she is at work. She sleeps while I am at work. Perfect.

I wonder if my dating barmaids would fly at strip clubs. Go in and play the "shy" guy in the group. I actually dated a few strippers (one from Honey's and one from Ilda's) back in the day and that was the game I played when I landed them. Focus on one target and attempt to conquer.

That being said, how do you verify/clarify it's a date? If you score digits, make the call. There are two targets that I am cultivating right now. Both within the last week. And both basically fell into my lap. It's not always the good-looking guy that gets the attention, it's the guy that is somewhat "classy" and "dignified" (I am neither, but I try to portray as such). Going with the big guy, bunyon, is also a major plus. Having a wingman that is completely opposite of you but with the same end game is tantamount to success.

But, brykster's original thought of turning a strip club provider into a np4p conquest definitely appears tricky. I am sure it is done, but would the guy feel comfortable knowing that she is at work servicing other guuys while yuo wait out in the car to pick her up at 4:30 AM? I'd kind of feel like a cuckold, to tell you the truth. Heck, when a barmaid is later than 30-45 minutes after closing I get a little anxious (although I have seen what goes on in the bar after 4 and generally everybody is talking gossip about the clients or staff that just left, counting money and in a general hurry to go home).

Well, brykster, how did this turn out?

Gavy

[justlooking]

Although, reading M's posts, I don't think that's HER problem.

I think the problem she was adverting to -- and this comports with my own observations of, oh, ten million or so strippers -- is that if you spend the greater part of your life (including the non-working part) with people involved in the strip club scene, it makes it almost impossible not to get completely swept up in the unhealthier aspects of the lifestyle. Drugs, mainly -- but other stuff as well.

Of course, Axe may have a hard time buying this because, as has been discussed in other threads, low-end clubs don't tend to be the slimepots of evil that high-end clubs are.

[Gavvy Cravath]

Of course, Axe may have a hard time buying this because, as has been discussed in other threads, low-end clubs don't tend to be the slimepots of evil that high-end clubs are.

More money, more problems. What goes on at the low end joints? Young kids, old guys and immigrants trying to get off relatively cheap with semi-decent talent.

The higher end places have what some would call way-better talent. More money from the clients and more money for coke, extacy and h. "Slimepots" of evil. I like that.

Gavy

[Axe]

You know, it's ironic.

I don't know this, but I imagine a big part of the problem a stripper has in dating guys who work in or frequent strip clubs is that they know what goes on in them. Whereas a guy who doesn't work in or frequent a club would be more likely to assume that there's no sex in them.

Maybe. The thing isnt so much what goes on in stripclubs in general or even at a specific club in comparison to whats going on with THAT specific stripper.


Of course, Axe may have a hard time buying this because, as has been discussed in other threads, low-end clubs don't tend to be the slimepots of evil that high-end clubs are.

Oh, I buy it. LE clubs have their own flavor palate of evil. They arent better or worse than HE clubs in that regard. They're just different.


gavy:

Brykster hasnt updated us in a while.

[justlooking]

Maybe. The thing isnt so much what goes on in stripclubs in general or even at a specific club in comparison to whats going on with THAT specific stripper.

Are you saying that VHM strippers can't have SOs?

[justlooking]

That isn't meant to be provocative. It must be hard, if they're honest. Unless, as M said above, their SO is "open-minded."

[Axe]

Are you saying that VHM strippers can't have SOs?

No. I'm saying from a stripper's perspective she might prefer to not have someone at the club be aware of just about everything she's doing, VHM or not.

(I didnt see that as provocative)

[Gavvy Cravath]

Are you saying that VHM strippers can't have SOs?

What guy would allow that? I am definitely curious. I had "jealousy" issues in the past. As recent as 6 years ago. I flew into a rage when this barmaid told a client that she was single in front of me. Immature schmuck that I was. Thank G*d the old gavycrav has let the building. How embarrassing?!?

JL, that's a good question. I don't think I'd understand a guy that would let his chick felate other guys. Think about your SO/GF/WIFE right now sucking some guy off for 50 bucks. Kind of turns the stomach, no?

Gavy

[masquerade]

Although, reading M's posts, I don't think that's HER problem.

I think the problem she was adverting to -- and this comports with my own observations of, oh, ten million or so strippers -- is that if you spend the greater part of your life (including the non-working part) with people involved in the strip club scene, it makes it almost impossible not to get completely swept up in the unhealthier aspects of the lifestyle. Drugs, mainly -- but other stuff as well.



YES. Plus, you tend to meet guys who initially play the "shy guy", as gavy spoke about earlier, who in actuality are the worst of the worst when it comes to using women and just being general scumbags. I've met some nice guys in strip clubs before; guys I certainly would have considered dating - but as a general rule I wouldn't want to walk down that path again.

A job eats up a huge portion of your life, emotional energy, etc., so I firmly believe that if your job happens to be working in a strip club, that it's crucial the other significant portions of your life (like a relationship, for example) be unrelated to that scene. As JL mentioned, a strip club environment often encourages a lot of unhealthy and/or dehibilitating behavior. Keeping the rest of your life balanced is the smart way to not let all of that suck you in.

Even the least slimepot-y strip club is still a strip club... high end, low end, whatever. The high end places are probably worse in this regard, but even at best, just being around the strip club lifestyle too much is going to paralyze you as far as doing anything else with your life is concerned. That's what it does.

[Axe]

What guy would allow that?

Some do.


I don't think I'd understand a guy that would let his chick felate other guys.

Well, the guy has to know thats what she does in the first place in order for him to 'let' her do it. If she hides that fact from him thats another matter.

[masquerade]

What guy would allow that? I am definitely curious. I had "jealousy" issues in the past. As recent as 6 years ago. I flew into a rage when this barmaid told a client that she was single in front of me. Immature schmuck that I was. Thank G*d the old gavycrav has let the building. How embarrassing?!?

JL, that's a good question. I don't think I'd understand a guy that would let his chick felate other guys. Think about your SO/GF/WIFE right now sucking some guy off for 50 bucks. Kind of turns the stomach, no?

Gavy

What if she was sucking off some other guy for like, $1,000.00? And what if you were so completely secure in the relationship and understood her outlook well enough that even though the physical aspect of what she was doing sort of grossed you out, that you didn't feel any jealousy? What if you knew she'd tell you everything and never lie to you? What if you could just break it down to logic and see it as fully exploiting a big money making opportunity? I'm not saying that you necessarily could do it, but there are guys out there who can.

[Axe]

Plus, you tend to meet guys who initially play the "shy guy", as gavy spoke about earlier, who in actuality are the worst of the worst when it comes to using women and just being general scumbags.

LOL

I was just about to tell gavy that particular stripper strategy is NOT a good idea. gavy, if you think waitresses are cagey, you aint seen anything in comparison to a stripper.

[Axe]

What if she was sucking off some other guy for like, $1,000.00? And what if you were so completely secure in the relationship and understood her outlook well enough that even though the physical aspect of what she was doing sort of grossed you out, that you didn't feel any jealousy? What if you knew she'd tell you everything and never lie to you? What if you could just break it down to logic and see it as fully exploiting a big money making opportunity? I'm not saying that you necessarily could do it, but there are guys out there who can.

Like I said: some do.

[Gavvy Cravath]

Plus, you tend to meet guys who initially play the "shy guy", as gavy spoke about earlier, who in actuality are the worst of the worst when it comes to using women and just being general scumbags.

Man, if I didn't pull so much tail at the "dollar a dance" joints, I'd might have to work this angle again. It worked for me when I was broke, now, with a little scratch...the possibilities are endless. I love being out of debt!

Gavy

[Gavvy Cravath]

What if she was sucking off some other guy for like, $1,000.00? And what if you were so completely secure in the relationship and understood her outlook well enough that even though the physical aspect of what she was doing sort of grossed you out, that you didn't feel any jealousy? What if you knew she'd tell you everything and never lie to you? What if you could just break it down to logic and see it as fully exploiting a big money making opportunity? I'm not saying that you necessarily could do it, but there are guys out there who can.

Nope, I couldn't do it. Kind of turns my stomach, actually.

Gavy

[Gavvy Cravath]

LOL

I was just about to tell gavy that particular stripper strategy is NOT a good idea. gavy, if you think waitresses are cagey, you aint seen anything in comparison to a stripper.

I got them back in the 90s, but I was probably 150 pounds and rock solid at that point, so being good looking helped. Plus, the places I pulled them out of were Honey's and Ilda's, not exactly your high-end joints.

Gavy

[Gavvy Cravath]

Bunyon and I had a fun game last year. It started at the "pizza", this hardcore after-hours joint we used to hit and then overflowed into our "dollar a dance" scene. We made a bet in mid May as to who could pull the most digits for the summer. He won, of course, but he had an array of targets and hit on chicks indiscriminately. Me, I played my "shy" and "innocent" game and did pretty well, but those girls were looking for the "relationship" where as bunyon flat out told them he was "married". (Of course, most of his digits were from dominican chicks, so those numbers shouldn't count as they were mostly for a P4P nature).

Gavy

[Axe]

What if she was sucking off some other guy for like, $1,000.00? And what if you were so completely secure in the relationship and understood her outlook well enough that even though the physical aspect of what she was doing sort of grossed you out, that you didn't feel any jealousy? What if you knew she'd tell you everything and never lie to you? What if you could just break it down to logic and see it as fully exploiting a big money making opportunity? I'm not saying that you necessarily could do it, but there are guys out there who can.

What if your SO says: "I dont give a shit if you're a stripper, but I dont want you doing sex for money." What would you do?

[Axe]

I got them back in the 90s, but I was probably 150 pounds and rock solid at that point, so being good looking helped. Plus, the places I pulled them out of were Honey's and Ilda's, not exactly your high-end joints.

Gavy

Nahhh, you just got game, dude. Strategy smategy.

[Gavvy Cravath]

Nahhh, you just got game, dude. Strategy smategy.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Axe. Catch you over in "War Stories".

Gavy

[donquixote04]

What if she was sucking off some other guy for like, $1,000.00? And what if you were so completely secure in the relationship and understood her outlook well enough that even though the physical aspect of what she was doing sort of grossed you out, that you didn't feel any jealousy? What if you knew she'd tell you everything and never lie to you? What if you could just break it down to logic and see it as fully exploiting a big money making opportunity? I'm not saying that you necessarily could do it, but there are guys out there who can.
But this get's back to the dilemma that slinky always raises when this comes up (I wonder where he is on this one?): If the guy really is that secure and can separate out his stripper GF's business interests from their private personal relationship, too many strippers would think to themselves 'he must be fucked up to not care about what I do to other guys every day. Either that, or maybe he just doesn't really love me after all.' But if the guy DOES object, then too many strippers would think to themselves 'who the fuck is he to control my life and try to change who I am and what I choose to do'. Either way, it's a no-win situation.

[masquerade]

What if your SO says: "I dont give a shit if you're a stripper, but I dont want you doing sex for money." What would you do?

I wouldn't have sex for money, I guess. If having sex for money were really that important to me, I'd talk to him about it and try to get him to see my point of view. I suppose that if we couldn't come to some mutually satisfactory agreement, we'd be in trouble.

[masquerade]

But this get's back to the dilemma that slinky always raises when this comes up (I wonder where he is on this one?): If the guy really is that secure and can separate out his stripper GF's business interests from their private personal relationship, too many strippers would think to themselves 'he must be fucked up to not care about what I do to other guys every day. Either that, or maybe he just doesn't really love me after all.' But if the guy DOES object, then too many strippers would think to themselves 'who the fuck is he to control my life and try to change who I am and what I choose to do'. Either way, it's a no-win situation.

Well, for me it's not about being with someone who doesn't give a shit what I do (who wants that?), it's about finding someone who understands the way I feel and "gets it", for lack of a better term. It might be difficult to find that out there, but I wouldn't say it's as hopeless as a "no-win situation".

[lappy]

When it rains it pours:

Here's how my Nor'Easter Sunday went. I call this 24yo, really sexy, crazy, American dancer that I have been chasing, I say 'you won't make money tonight (it's raining) let's hang out and I'll hook you up with some grocery money.' So I pick her up at a local spot (can't name for discreet reasons) around 7 I hand her a $50 to cover her ride and to make her a little happy. We go to a Pub in my town get some beers and pub food $50 tab, so far so good. Of course I buy the cigs she needs $7. We go home a little late for Sopranos but we manage to watch some TV. She wants to shower, I give her a towel and off she goes, so far so good. I open a bottle of red $25, she smokes a little weed (hers) so far so good. She says I'll spend the night but I need $200 (Lappy<stunned). I say I'll give you $150 + the earlier $50. She agrees. I tried the "I'll hook you up in the morning" with a little shopping, pay for the nails, big breakfast, etc but she wants the cash. So around midnight I walk over to the MAC machine and take out $160.

We hop in the sack, this is where it gets strange. She asks if I have a condom so she can 'suck my cock'. I ask for 'Bare Back' and she asks 'what's that?' I explain she says OK. Fellas, how could she not know what BB is? She goes to town (excellent job, top 10, by the way) and says' If you didn't have such a nice cock I would have asked for the condom'

So as I get ready for next round (FS) she says 'I gotta go' She says her time is more valuable than $200. So I get right out of bed and put my jeans on and take her to her place 20 minutes away. I wasn't going to plead or argue. Besides she was complaining about some toothache she had.

This was the first time in my life I ever handed cash to a girl in my house for any kind of sex.

So if you had to ask me, it started as a date and then ended as a mess.

Lastly, when I went in the club before she got there and I saw a dancer I was chasing last year. She immediately ran over gave me her new # and begged me not to leave. I already called her while tonight's girl was in the shower to make plans for this week. Tonight's girl turned out to be such a disappointment that I wouldn't reccomend her to the guys on here

So that was my rainy Sunday story, hope you liked it

[masquerade]

So, basically she'd agreed to spend the night for $150., which you gave to her, and then she wanted to leave after the bj was over and made some snide comment about what her time was worth? That's pretty messed up. I would have demanded some of the money back if I were you.

[brykster]

When it rains it pours:

Here's how my Nor'Easter Sunday went. I call this 24yo, really sexy, crazy, American dancer that I have been chasing, I say 'you won't make money tonight (it's raining) let's hang out and I'll hook you up with some grocery money.'

i guess it was never really a date because you made it P4P right at the top saying you were going to give her grocery money. she just turned out to be a greedy pig. well, at least you got a hot, young girl tell you you had a nice cock. that's worth ...what....30 bucks?

i drove up to Ct. in the torrential downpour only to find out no one showed up to dance. drove an hour (half hour each way) in the shit for nothin'. good thing i made it home for Sopranos (mediocre at best).

[LorenzoDeMedici]

So, basically she'd agreed to spend the night for $150., which you gave to her, and then she wanted to leave after the bj was over and made some snide comment about what her time was worth? That's pretty messed up. I would have demanded some of the money back if I were you.

I would not have given it to her in the first place. If she asked for it up front, than that would have been a signal to me that things were going to take a bad turn. I would have then cut my losses at 50&50 for the cab & dinner. Plus I would not have given her the $50 for the cab, I would have simply paid & tipped the driver personally, or picked her up at her place as you seem to know where she lived since you took her home. Sounds like a Live & learn

[justlooking]

I hate to pay up front, and I never do it. But if we're talking about strict p4p, and not "dating" among "friends", I think I would advise any woman I know to get the money up front if it's from a guy she doesn't know well.

[lappy]

In the past I have stayed away from the "compensation for missing work" It starts a bad, endless trend. In this case it was my idea to 'hook her up.' If she had stayed the night and multiple times had happened it would have been less annoying.

For Lorenzo: I usually think like you, but in this case she had the car service booked to drop her at the club. Since she wasn't going to work I just gave her the $50. I saw her get out of the car (Pa. limo plates-strange) Later at night I dropped her off at a 'friends' house.

We have choices, either deal with wives and girlfriends or hook up with strippers, bootycalls, etc. Since I would have blown a Hundy or so on a normal Sunday Night on dinner or strip clubs. I'll look at it as a $100 loss, not $200 loss. She did give one hell of a BBBJ.

Reminds me of an old joke:

How does a guy describe the worst blow job he ever got?


FANTASTIC!!!!

[Axe]

I wouldn't have sex for money, I guess. If having sex for money were really that important to me, I'd talk to him about it and try to get him to see my point of view. I suppose that if we couldn't come to some mutually satisfactory agreement, we'd be in trouble.

Wouldnt it make more sense to find a SO who wouldnt have a problem with it in the first place? Seems to me thats who many of the VHM types end up with.

[masquerade]

Wouldnt it make more sense to find a SO who wouldnt have a problem with it in the first place? Seems to me thats who many of the VHM types end up with.

Yeah, I mean it does and I have. I was just speaking hypothetically.

[Axe]

Yeah, I mean it does and I have. I was just speaking hypothetically.

OK.

Here I have to very openly admit I'm playing Devil's Advocate and I apologize in advance for being sarcastic.

Two questions:

Where does a VHM stripper go to meet men like that? I mean, if a stripclub isnt one of the best places, if not THE best place, then where else is?

And

Where in the 'interview process' do you specifically ask him if its ok to be a VHM stripper and be his SO?

[masquerade]

OK.

Here I have to very openly admit I'm playing Devil's Advocate and I apologize in advance for being sarcastic.

Two questions:

Where does a VHM stripper go to meet men like that? I mean, if a stripclub isnt one of the best places, if not THE best place, then where else is?

And

Where in the 'interview process' do you specifically ask him if its ok to be a VHM stripper and be his SO?


the internet is a good place to start if you need to filter a good portion of society right off the bat.

I've never included VHM stuff in the "interview process". I think most people I've dated knew all along what was going on in the strip club, but my current SO is the only one who I was comfortable enough with to openly admit it to and discuss it with. (and it took awhile to get to that point - the relationship almost did not survive the process.)

[Axe]

the internet is a good place to start if you need to filter a good portion of society right off the bat.


The internet?? Seriously, M, I think you're better off with a stripclub worker or a customer. I dont care how good your screening process is.

My point is that many, many men have a BIG problem with a VHM/SO combo. What gavy said about it in the other thread was typical. And, the guys who dont have a problem with it arent found hanging out at Baskin-Robins.

[Thorn]

(Although, in all my years of stripclubgoing, I personally haven't met that bouncer yet.)

That was precisely the bouncer I was when I worked in the clubs.

College enrolled, focused on my future, all about "I'm doing this to assist in achieving that."

If anything I was something of a better person back than [not that I am a horrible person now]. I had all my ideals pretty much intact and I had made very few compromises as of yet.

[Thorn]

Whereas a guy who doesn't work in or frequent a club would be more likely to assume that there's no sex in them.


With all the raids ending in prostitution arrests in NY/NJ/Ct making the papers and other news outlets over the last few years, the man you describe from [u]this area[/i] would either have to be incredibly naive or very poorly informed.

[Thorn]

So if you had to ask me, it started as a date and then ended as a mess.

When you meet the gal and the first thing you do is hand her $50 "to make her a little happy", it ain't a date... its a "date".

[masquerade]

The internet?? Seriously, M, I think you're better off with a stripclub worker or a customer. I dont care how good your screening process is.



Oh c'mon. Everyone does everything on the internet now, including meet people for relationships. I really don't understand why people are so weird about the whole idea of internet dating - it has such a negative reputation. The web has made every other aspect of our modern lives so much more efficient and streamlined, why should dating be any different? I love that I can meet someone face to face for the first time and already know that we're on the same page on lots of issues that are of importance to me. It means you can get right down to figuring out if you have physical chemistry and if the spark is there - which are things you obviously cannot do online.

[masquerade]

With all the raids ending in prostitution arrests in NY/NJ/Ct making the papers and other news outlets over the last few years, the man you describe from [u]this area[/i] would either have to be incredibly naive or very poorly informed.

1. Yes, a lot of them are poorly informed
2. People believe what they want to believe, so they believe that the stripper they're dating is a "clean" stripper
3. Most strippers lie to everyone (including the other strippers) about being a clean stripper

[Axe]

Oh c'mon. Everyone does everything on the internet now, including meet people for relationships. I really don't understand why people are so weird about the whole idea of internet dating - it has such a negative reputation. The web has made every other aspect of our modern lives so much more efficient and streamlined, why should dating be any different? I love that I can meet someone face to face for the first time and already know that we're on the same page on lots of issues that are of importance to me. It means you can get right down to figuring out if you have physical chemistry and if the spark is there - which are things you obviously cannot do online.

I have friends who have been internet dating for months now and they STILL have problems finding what they want. Lots of dates, even plenty of sex along with the dates, but no real romance at all. I'm sure there are exceptions, but overall the experience is somewhere between frustrating and mildly satisfactory.


How do you screen for a guy who is ok with a VHM/SO mix on an internet site?

Like this:


"Good-looking, part-time college student, part-time very-high-mileage stripper (blowjob, full service, etc.) seeks open-minded man who doesnt work in a stripclub or even go to them very much for a serious, loving relationship."



(I warned you I was going to be sarcastic)

[brykster]

I have friends who have been internet dating for months now and they STILL have problems finding what they want. Lots of dates, even plenty of sex along with the dates, but no real romance at all. I'm sure there are exceptions, but overall the experience is somewhere between frustrating and mildly satisfactory.

while internet dating provides you with many possibilities, it can be overwhelming because there is always someone better around the corner making it very hard to settle. that being said, for a dude like me who hates bars (regular ones) and doesn't have balls enough to approach a chick in a supermarket, the internet works nice.

[Axe]

A VHM stripper who wants an SO who is ok with what she does to make money has a very unique set of needs.

She either spells it out in plain english right from the begining or tip-toes around it until she figures out what his most likely response is going to be and, even then, there is no guarantee it will be positive. We also havent even begun to look at the kind of men who dont have a problem with a VHM/SO mix. Remember, we're considering a VHM stripper who wants a guy who is ok with her having sex for money while at the same time staying faithful to her.

A VERY rare bird if ever there was one.

[Axe]

while internet dating provides you with many possibilities, it can be overwhelming because there is always someone better around the corner making it very hard to settle. that being said, for a dude like me who hates bars (regular ones) and doesn't have balls enough to approach a chick in a supermarket, the internet works nice.


Youre not looking for an SO. That changes everything.

[masquerade]

Axe.... I'm probably the wrong person to talk to about this. I've actually never posted a personal ad. I did meet my SO online.... but in a rather unconventional manner. (I don't want to get too personal here, but let's just say that two people with the interests we have couldn't have come together in a more appropriate or interesting way.) I've found that instant messenger programs work extremely well for getting to know people. I love being able to think about what I'm saying before it comes out of my mouth, but still maintain the spontaneity that comes with a back-and-forth conversation. I've found that I can express myself most effectively through these types of programs, and also get a pretty good sense of the other person's intelligence and communication skills - which are both very important to me.

Like I mentioned earlier - this is the only person who I've ever been completely honest with about this stuff, and we came together purely by chance. If something were to come between us and I found myself single again, I really have no idea how I would go about finding someone else who would accept me in my entirety. I definitely wouldn't throw the whole prostitution/stripper thing right out there, though.... I'd want to feel out the situation a bit first; at least be sure I like the guy enough to care what he thinks about me. At that point, I'd probably just start a discussion about sexual history... see where it goes.... take it from there.

[brykster]

Youre not looking for an SO. That changes everything.

huh? can you explain what you mean here?

[justlooking]

I just want to emphasize some things you can glean from M's last posts:

1. She met her current SO -- the only one she could ever have confidence would be accepting of at least some of her VHM activities -- in a completely fortuitous and idiosyncratic way. She couldn't replicate it if she wanted to.

2. She has no idea, if this relationship were to end, how she would find another person so accepting.

I'm emphasizing this to make the point that it isn't as easy or as likely to find someone who fits M's profile as she (probably inadvertently) made it out to be.

Which I also think goes to the point I was trying to make in this post in another thread:

http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?p=654619&highlight=option#post654619

[justlooking]

This board forbids the public posting of private communications. But since M has correctly (IMO) declined to go into the details of her current relationship, and since I can't communicate with her privately, I hope I'll be permitted to say the following for her benefit, without anyone else's trying to follow it up: your hooking up with your current SO violated a guideline that many (though by no means all) people here believe in as strongly as "don't look for SOs in strip clubs." You see what I mean, right?

[masquerade]

Yes, I do know exactly what you mean. Although I still think my situation was unique enough to make it somewhat incomparable to the more general situation which you're referring to. (I think.)

And yes, I have no idea how I would ever find someone else so accepting. I realize I was wrongly giving the impression it was easy. It's not.

[justlooking]

Although I still think my situation was unique enough to make it somewhat incomparable to the more general situation which you're referring to. (I think.)

Yeah. But EVERYBODY thinks that, when they find themselves wanting to go against some general guideline.

[justlooking]

(I mean, remember, you once posted on this board, "I don't date customers", at the VERY TIME you were dating a customer. When I called you on it, you said something like, "well, I consider this to be different.")

[justlooking]

NB: My point here isn't to question the wisdom of your current relationship. Rather, to point out that it's often unrealistic to insist on definitive rules.

[masquerade]

No, you're right and you're right. I did consider that relationship to be different at that time... stupidly so. That's precisely why I'm so anti strip club dating now. I don't see my current relationship to be at all similar to that, though - are you saying I'm just being unrealistic?

[justlooking]

I dunno. You may not be. And you're right: there are factors here that could take you outside the general rule. Only time will tell.

I'm just saying that it's kind of ironic to hold this relationship up as proof that you don't need to violate the "don't date out of strip clubs" rule to meet guys that fill your needs.

[justlooking]

Again, don't take this as some kind of reflection on the merits of your current relationship, which I know very little about. But you know what you said in that post about the German tourist and the mirror: that until you looked in the mirror while he was doing you doggy-style, the reality of what you were doing didn't sink in? We often don't realize -- or even, if you want to be judgmental about it, we often deny -- what we're doing while we're doing it. I know I do. Often, you only see it in retrospect. Or, if something happens that jolts you into looking at it as if you were on the outside.

[Axe]

huh? can you explain what you mean here?

The (sub)topic when I made the post you responded to was finding a SO.

In general, the needier a person is, the more likely the internet sites will take advantage of that person. Here's why:

Its one thing to use the internet for lining up dates, seeing how they go, then going back to the well when you dont think things have worked out with the latest connection. No big deal if you're NOT looking for a SO.

But, when you're looking for a SO...

The standards go up. WAY up. Probably too far. The quest for a SO then turns into a weird combination of shopping for the right person along with the sneaky suspicion that maybe the next person you meet online will not have all the problems the present one does. Its easy to see how the match sites thought they could make money at it.

Now, take this game and apply it to a VHM stripper. Her needs are so different and off the norm, how likely is it she'll be successful??

The number of non-cheating men who are OK with a P4P stripper as a SO is SMALL. (That might be the understatement of the century!)

[Axe]

Or, if something happens that jolts you into looking at it as if you were on the outside.

Like, for instance, trying to explain how there are plenty of alternatives for a VHM stripper to meeting her SO at a stripclub...

[justlooking]

I've told a number of women contemplating moving into VHM territory (which I define as doing stuff for a bunch of customers as a job, as opposed to highly selectively "dating" a very few people) and other forms of fairly open sex work that one problem they'll have is finding someone "normal" who'll have a relationship with them in the future, unless they totally conceal that aspect of their lives. For some reason, they never believe me.

[justlooking]

(If you're willing to lie, the problem is obviously greater with non-strip-club stuff, since strip clubs always give you the veneer of deniability in that you can always claim you were "clean".)

[Axe]

I'm emphasizing this to make the point that it isn't as easy or as likely to find someone who fits M's profile as she (probably inadvertently) made it out to be.

Exactly.

Now, once thats out in the open, why would any other VHM stripper who wants the same thing M does in a SO be any different???

[Axe]

I've told a number of women contemplating moving into VHM territory (which I define as doing stuff for a bunch of customers as a job, as opposed to highly selectively "dating" a very few people) and other forms of fairly open sex work that one problem they'll have is finding someone "normal" who'll have a relationship with them in the future, unless they totally conceal that aspect of their lives. For some reason, they never believe me.

Because they probably know at least five men at the club where they work who would be ok with it.

[justlooking]

To be fair, I think it's cuz they just forget how outside the mainstream that stuff is. Although maybe we're saying the same thing.

[Axe]

...it's often unrealistic to insist on definitive rules.


As far as I'm concerned, this sums up everything I've been trying to say.

[justlooking]

Sometimes they say things like, "I wouldn't want to be with anyone that closed-minded."

And I'm like, "You have a very naive and limited view of the way most people in the world think."

[justme]

Yeah. But EVERYBODY thinks that, when they find themselves wanting to go against some general guideline.

Famous last words: "But that's different!"

That said, I've done plenty of things in my life that have been the wrong decision by conventional wisdom. Some of those things have blown up in my face, but a large majority have ended fairly well. If anything has helped me, it's been an awareness that the situations are always the same - the reasons why they're bad ideas are always the same. What changes is the people involved. They can compensate for a lot of the predictable problems by simply predicting them. You have to be aware of what can happen, see it unfolding, and stop it.

With 'inadvisable' situations, this could end up being a lot of work. So I suppose it's most important to really be able to accurately evaluate the potential upside for getting yourself entangled in, in some way unnecessary, complex situations.

[justme]

I've told a number of women contemplating moving into VHM territory (which I define as doing stuff for a bunch of customers as a job, as opposed to highly selectively "dating" a very few people) and other forms of fairly open sex work that one problem they'll have is finding someone "normal" who'll have a relationship with them in the future, unless they totally conceal that aspect of their lives. For some reason, they never believe me.

I've told a lot of guys contemplating hiring a prostitute to fuck them that one problem they'll have is finding someone "normal" who'll have a relationship with them in the future unless they totally conceal that aspect of their lives.

Or

Sometimes you just gotta conceal an aspect of your life.

[justlooking]

Sometimes you just gotta conceal an aspect of your life.

In part, that's the point I've been trying to make.

[justlooking]

(I have to think, though, that in most cases it's much easier for johns to conceal their involvement than sex workers. This is for reasons of the amount of time spent on these "illicit" activities, the amount of attention paid to them, and the amount of public evidence of involvement.)

(NB: I said "in most cases.")

[Axe]

I've told a lot of guys contemplating hiring a prostitute to fuck them that one problem they'll have is finding someone "normal" who'll have a relationship with them in the future unless they totally conceal that aspect of their lives.

Or

Sometimes you just gotta conceal an aspect of your life.




Our hypothetical VHM stripper wants to be able to have sex for money AND have a SO who KNOWS about it but will still be loyal only to her. Its NOT the same thing.

[justlooking]

You have to be aware of what can happen, see it unfolding, and stop it.

With 'inadvisable' situations, this could end up being a lot of work.

Exactly. It's usually a lot of work. It's not easy, or something you can just expect to happen.

And not only is it work, it's constant work. You have to keep perpetually aware, always monitoring the situation, and always planning your best course.

I don't want to sound like one of those guys who always denegrates sex workers, but that kind of constant work never seems to be what they're contemplating when they insist they can still have "normal" relationships.

[justlooking]

In part, that's the point I've been trying to make.

As has Axe, I see . . . .

[justlooking]

Just to add another thought to the mix -- and again, I want to be clear that this is NOT meant to be a reflection on any particular real-life relationship, but only a speaking point -- if a guy knows what the VHM stripper is doing but is OK with it, even though it physically grosses him out, cuz he understands it's a big money-making opportunity . . . well, you've got to be careful that doesn't shade over into pimping.

[brykster]

The (sub)topic when I made the post you responded to was finding a SO.

In general, the needier a person is, the more likely the internet sites will take advantage of that person. Here's why:

Its one thing to use the internet for lining up dates, seeing how they go, then going back to the well when you dont think things have worked out with the latest connection. No big deal if you're NOT looking for a SO.

But, when you're looking for a SO...

The standards go up. WAY up. Probably too far. The quest for a SO then turns into a weird combination of shopping for the right person along with the sneaky suspicion that maybe the next person you meet online will not have all the problems the present one does. Its easy to see how the match sites thought they could make money at it.

Now, take this game and apply it to a VHM stripper. Her needs are so different and off the norm, how likely is it she'll be successful??

The number of non-cheating men who are OK with a P4P stripper as a SO is SMALL. (That might be the understatement of the century!)

oh, o.k. you are speaking in a generality. i thought you were commenting directly on my situation; ...but for the record, i am using the internet in hopes of finding an SO. why date when P4P is cheaper and far less time consuming...in most cases.

[Axe]

why date when P4P is cheaper and far less time consuming...in most cases.

Yeah, but you still have to date the SO candidates you're lining up on the internet match sites, dont you?

[justme]

(I have to think, though, that in most cases it's much easier for johns to conceal their involvement than sex workers. This is for reasons of the amount of time spent on these "illicit" activities, the amount of attention paid to them, and the amount of public evidence of involvement.)

(NB: I said "in most cases.")

Right. I wonder if this is still as true for "retired" johns / sexworkers.

[justme]

Our hypothetical VHM stripper wants to be able to have sex for money AND have a SO who KNOWS about it but will still be loyal only to her. Its NOT the same thing.

No it's not.

And even if you imagined a john who wanted to be able to pay for sex AND have an SO who KNOWS about it but will still be loyal only to him it still wouldn't be the same thing.

There's a difference between work and play, that is.

My post was simply meant to agree with JL in the sense that I tend to think that it's more realistic for people involved in commercial sex to expect to have to hide that involvement even if it's in the past.

I mean, I haven't really paid someone to fuck me in over three years, and I'm dating a woman that's really very wonderful and who I've told just about every aspect of my life. But unless my outlook changes completely, I think I'll go ahead and continue to conceal my commercial sex past. In an ideal world, I'd like to not have this as a secret, but I think it's better for both of us this way.

That said, I certainly don't begrudge masquerade, or indeed anyone, for having what I believe to be unrealistic expectations. It's up to each person to decide what they think is important. They're really the only people who will suffer from any unnecessarily high expectations. Moreover, since it appears that since masquerade has someone who fills her requirements, they might not be that unrealistic after all.

Of course, I didn't think that unrealistic expectations were the topic of disagreement. What I took from the conversation was that you found her expectation of SO understanding to be at odds with her stance on strippers dating people they meet in the clubs.

My own staggering hypocrisy compels me to agree with her general rule of thumb, however. It's probably a bad idea to get involved with someone you meet in a commercial sex setting.

But rules of thumb are meant to be broken, I suppose, which is more or less why I posted that bit a few posts up...

[masquerade]

I mean, I haven't really paid someone to fuck me in over three years, and I'm dating a woman that's really very wonderful and who I've told just about every aspect of my life. But unless my outlook changes completely, I think I'll go ahead and continue to conceal my commercial sex past. In an ideal world, I'd like to not have this as a secret, but I think it's better for both of us this way.



But how can you be sure it's better for both of you that way? Have you ever tried completely opening up to someone you care about? Isn't it kind of presumptuous to assume you know what's best for her?

Look, I feel like I'm being a giant pain in the ass around here lately... and I really don't mean to sound all self-righteous or anything - I used to agree with all of you 100% on the necessity of concealing certain aspects of one's life while in a relationship. It's just that now that I've experienced it not having to be that way, I don't think that I could ever go back. That said, it's wrong for me to try to shove all my beliefs down your throats... so - I'm sorry. Every relationship is different and deserves its own unique considerations.

My situation IS hard work sometimes. What I think is most difficult about it is coming to terms with the fact that I've lost my ability to lie.... I literally can't keep anything from him. For so many years, this was just how I lived my life with a SO. It's bizarre. As soon as I do anything that I feel the least bit funny about, I know I have to tell him about it - even if I know he'll never find out if I don't say anything. It's nice because I feel very little guilt anymore. It sucks because sometimes I feel like a pussy.

[masquerade]

Just to add another thought to the mix -- and again, I want to be clear that this is NOT meant to be a reflection on any particular real-life relationship, but only a speaking point -- if a guy knows what the VHM stripper is doing but is OK with it, even though it physically grosses him out, cuz he understands it's a big money-making opportunity . . . well, you've got to be careful that doesn't shade over into pimping.

Very valid point. When I made the decision to re-involve myself with VHM stripping, it was because I wanted to do it and he was simply supportive of it. (not encouraging in the least or at all happy about it, just supportive.) We needed the money pretty badly. We certainly could have gotten things accomplished without it, however - and he would have tolerated scraping by just fine, I'm sure - but me, I would have hated every second of it. I had a very certain idea of how I wanted things to be, how I wanted to get places, etc, etc. It was just how I wanted to do things.
I've met other women who did those types of things strictly for other people, and it's disturbing.

[donquixote04]

... My situation IS hard work sometimes. What I think is most difficult about it is coming to terms with the fact that I've lost my ability to lie.... I literally can't keep anything from him. For so many years, this was just how I lived my life with a SO. It's bizarre. As soon as I do anything that I feel the least bit funny about, I know I have to tell him about it - even if I know he'll never find out if I don't say anything. It's nice because I feel very little guilt anymore. It sucks because sometimes I feel like a pussy.
On one level, this seems admirable. On another, it is very selfish of you. I mean, if you live your life as a saint, then being completely honest with your SO whom you cherish is no problem. But if you slip up and do something that is likely to be hurtful to your cherished SO, and then you can't find it in yourself to keep it from your SO, then your confession is a mechanism you reduce your guilt by increasing you SO's pain.

Now maybe the pain leads to a strengthening of your relationship with your SO (no pain, no gain). On the other hand, maybe it would instead destroy your relationship. And if it did, would it be what you DID that destroyed the relationship, or would it be the SHARING of what you did with your SO? And if it was the sharing, then the question becomes Why share? Obviously, one answer is because by sharing you can remove the guilt you would incur by hiding something from your SO.

I think many people have to weigh whether removing guilt is worth the risk of hurting a cherished SO and ending a relationship. In this weighing, these people also realize that deciding not to share incurs the risk that their actions might be discovered, leading to hurt on 2 compounding levels: [a] the act itself, and [b] the deception. Many people might decide that sharing and guilt removal is a selfish act that transfers the anguish from you to your SO.

[donquixote04]

And, to follow JL's pattern of frequently making his motive's clear about his posts (e.g., "and again, I want to be clear that this is NOT meant to be a reflection on any particular real-life relationship, but only a speaking point"), my last post was clearly more about me than it was about you, Masquerade.

[justme]

But how can you be sure it's better for both of you that way? Have you ever tried completely opening up to someone you care about? Isn't it kind of presumptuous to assume you know what's best for her?

Look, I feel like I'm being a giant pain in the ass around here lately... a

<snip>

I can't be sure it's better for both of us, really. I have to make decisions based on my best estimation. Maybe it's a little presumptuous, but I see much less upside to counteract the potential downside.

I'm happy that you've found a relationship that allows for total honesty. For my own part, I've realized that (as DQ mentions) sometimes being totally honest is a selfish thing. I've certainly hurt other people in order to purge my soul, and these days I just can't bring myself to do it anymore. Still, don't think I don't have thoughts that agree with your point with some frequency.

********************

If you're being a pain in the ass, it's only because you're advocating positions that are very unpopular around here. That's not to say that those positions aren't reasonable or even, in some cases, the better viewpoint. I for one, appreciate your voice.

Besides, if someone throws a little self-righteousness my way on UG, that's only a small payment on the karma that I've accumulated around here (sfsf).

[justlooking]

I've been trying to collect my thoughts on this.

There are lots of aspects to all of our lives. A lot of different things we find important. One thing that most people who post here have in common is the importance that many of us attach to sex, and in particular to a variety of sexual activity. Posters like my old bud Thorn sometimes argue that this is biological and hence beyond our control. In my case, I'm pretty sure it's psychological, which may or may not be out of my control. But, in any event, it's ONE thing that's very important to me.

The difference between this one thing and other things that are imporant to me -- say, a certain view of morality, politics, interest in arts and literature -- is that this interest is in no way mainstream. So -- unlike, say, my devotion to opera -- I couldn't count on any potential partner to understand it, much less share it. Also, my experience teaches me that people who share this interest with me often differ from me on almost everything else I think is important (which is why I try never to participate in the "off-topic" discussions on this board).

When I was looking for an SO, this sex mania wasn't an issue, because it hadn't yet manifest itself. But if it had, I don't think I could make sharing (or even understanding) my sexual mania a primary criterion. Because I think the set of people who share it and who would otherwise be suitable is too small. I might never find one.

Now, maybe M has lucked out. Or maybe she's overlooking things about her current SO that she'd otherwise consider unsuitable because it's so important to her that she found someone who understands her sexuality. I don't know.

But going beyond M's particular case, I think that it's a much likelier recipe for happiness to concentrate on the other stuff and lie about the sex, than to expect to be able to be honest about the sex and still maintain a suitable relationship.

[justlooking]

That said, it's wrong for me to try to shove all my beliefs down your throats...

Wait a minute. What's the point of this board, then?

[brykster]

Yeah, but you still have to date the SO candidates you're lining up on the internet match sites, dont you?

yes, this is exactly my point. P4P is cheaper and less time consuming. You don't have to spring for an expensive meal and you don't have to spend three hours making inane conversation when you are dealing with a provider.

[justlooking]

It's funny you should say that, since I do everything I can to inject those exact things INTO my p4p.

[Axe]

yes, this is exactly my point. P4P is cheaper and less time consuming. You don't have to spring for an expensive meal and you don't have to spend three hours making inane conversation when you are dealing with a provider.

There will be plenty of time for expensive meals and inane conversation when you go on dates with internet-sourced, potential SOs.


(sorry, couldnt resist)

[Axe]

Look, I feel like I'm being a giant pain in the ass around here lately...

Nahh, dont sweat it, M.

All you had to do was admit a little sooner in this thread that the number of places to find a SO of the kind that you and many other VHM strippers would like to have are very few once stripclubs are excluded as a possibility. Even with stripclubs, its still not as if there are LOTS of places.

People dont like to hear that their choices/behavior in one area of life can be limiting in others. Women in general really dont like it. Strippers especially dont like it at all. VHM strippers fucking HATE it.

[Axe]

It's funny you should say that, since I do everything I can to inject those exact things INTO my p4p.

I never knew you were into SM, JL.

[masquerade]

But going beyond M's particular case, I think that it's a much likelier recipe for happiness to concentrate on the other stuff and lie about the sex, than to expect to be able to be honest about the sex and still maintain a suitable relationship.

But don't you think it's pretty cruel to only offer someone you're with a happiness that's predicated on your lies? It seems like what you're saying is that it's ok for you to make a decision for them, because ignorance is bliss + everything is going to be easier and more comfortable for you. Is what's easiest, most logical, and promotes the most happiness necessarily the right thing to do under all circumstances? Under most circumstances, the obvious answer is yes - but to me this just seems like a glaring exception.

[Thorn]

I definitely wouldn't throw the whole prostitution/stripper thing right out there, though.... I'd want to feel out the situation a bit first; at least be sure I like the guy enough to care what he thinks about me. At that point, I'd probably just start a discussion about sexual history... see where it goes.... take it from there.

An honest query. Is the situation such that he is aware of your dancing, and everything that gones on during lap dances and VIP room sessions, and he is OK with this?

Further, at the same time he has no issues, or desire, to be able to do the same things you do but from the other side of the equation?

Aside: I would have no problem at all with the first, myself. The second would be an issue.

[Thorn]

And yes, I have no idea how I would ever find someone else so accepting. I realize I was wrongly giving the impression it was easy. It's not.

I wouldn't suppose it would be, ordinary. But as someone who would have no problem with it myself, IF my S.O. decided that was what she just had to do for a living, I can say that it isn't impossible.

My former comment about not dating dancers has nothing to do with their stripping, or lap dancing, etc. It has everything to do with their overall general instability in relationships [drama].

In my work I fix things. Things which usually involve a great deal of turmoil and constant stress. I like my home life to be peaceful and calming [as well as fun loving] to balance this out. I go a long way to promote successful communication and compromise in that regard.

The few romantic relationships I have had with dancers, and without exception all the relationships I have been witness to where dancers were involved, were anything other than peaceful or calming. I am sure such a dancer exists, somewhere, but like your very reasonable and understanding S.O. is very hard to find.

Candidly, if I could have found a dancer who was into peace, tranquility and repose at home [that doesn't mean vegetative, I mean having fun but knowing how to work things out without a temper tantrum or a hissy fit, etc] it would have been ideal for me. Since it might be highly likely that are views regarding sex would be similar and I wouldn't be doing the idiotic lying by omission that I do currently to keep peace in my home.

[Thorn]

In part, that's the point I've been trying to make.


Agreed.

[Thorn]

(I have to think, though, that in most cases it's much easier for johns to conceal their involvement than sex workers. This

Also agreed.

[Thorn]

Our hypothetical VHM stripper wants to be able to have sex for money AND have a SO who KNOWS about it but will still be loyal only to her.

I would hope everything might agree that this juxtaposition is nothing if not a tad, "complex".

[Thorn]

It's nice because I feel very little guilt anymore. It sucks because sometimes I feel like a pussy.

That only works IF what you reveal for the relief of your guilt doesn't place the burden from your shoulders to those of the other person in the relationship.

For instance, if one is having an affair and desires to end it and remain married it is arguable that the proper thing to do is to end the affair as cleanly as possible and than be the best spouse you can be from that point onward.

Telling the spouse, while incredibly honest and may relieve the guilty party of the burden of their guilty, would place a very heavy and painful burden on the spouse.

It is a quite a conundrum, but in the end I think, if you love the person, it is better to spare them the pain than honor them with your candor.

[masquerade]

That only works IF what you reveal for the relief of your guilt doesn't place the burden from your shoulders to those of the other person in the relationship.

For instance, if one is having an affair and desires to end it and remain married it is arguable that the proper thing to do is to end the affair as cleanly as possible and than be the best spouse you can be from that point onward.

Telling the spouse, while incredibly honest and may relieve the guilty party of the burden of their guilty, would place a very heavy and painful burden on the spouse.

It is a quite a conundrum, but in the end I think, if you love the person, it is better to spare them the pain than honor them with your candor.


Again, I think my personal situation is unique. I spent a lot of time and energy lying to my current SO when we first began dating. The motive behind the lies was two fold - equal parts knowing I was doing things that were fucked up and trying to cover them up, and pure habit from having acted that way throughout several of my previous relationships.

He knew what I was up to and called me out on it. I continued to deny things. He left me. I was devasted. I was also a complete mess as a result of doing the very things I had been lying to him about for so long.

I decided to begin making some serious changes in my life, and to try completely devoting myself to someone for once. When we finally reconciled, things were obviously much different than they would have been had all that stuff never happened. In order to move forward, we had to address all these issues very candidly.

Perhaps some people would prefer to live in denial and would rather that their SO kept their unsavory activities to themselves, but he made it extremely clear to me that if we were going to work things out that we would both need to be completely honest with one another 100% of the time, which includes not omitting things that we know the other person would be upset over.

I think it is only through our history together that we've been able to achieve the kind of relationship we have. It's also because of his personal history before we were togehter that he's able to understand where I'm coming from as well as he does. I guess it's not your average situation.

[masquerade]

An honest query. Is the situation such that he is aware of your dancing, and everything that gones on during lap dances and VIP room sessions, and he is OK with this?

Further, at the same time he has no issues, or desire, to be able to do the same things you do but from the other side of the equation?

Aside: I would have no problem at all with the first, myself. The second would be an issue.

The two sides of the equation are not at all comparable. Well, for some people they might be - but I think that most of the time you're talking about completely different motivations. This is not to say that I think either person doing one thing or the other is any better or worse... they're just really different as far as a relationship is concerned.

Yeah, there are things about stripping I genuinely enjoy, but the bottom line is that the money is awesome and the schedule is flexible enough to accomodate my classes. If my SO were doing the same thing for the same reasons, I believe I would be supportive - but that's not what you're talking about, is it? If I'm not mistaken, you're asking me if I would be accepting of him patronizing strippers. Hell no. If he had extra money to throw around (which he doesn't) he could using it to support me so I didn't have to work while I was in school. Also, I don't have any interest in being with someone who's expending their sexual energy on other people.

[Gavvy Cravath]

I can't stop thinking about how grossed out I'd be if I was actually dating a "sex worker". Man, the fact that she is sucking someone elses cock really turns my stomach. No matter how cool they are or how "secure" I am, I just couldn't think about sharing my significant other with anyone.

I don't understand swinging. I will never understand any man who knows his wife/gf cheated on him and then he took her back. Just out of control. Yuck...

This thread is like a car wreck. I come in knowing that I am going to read something that is revolting...

Gavy

[donquixote04]

... Also, I don't have any interest in being with someone who's expending their sexual energy on other people.
I definitely see that working -- making one's living -- is very different than seeking personal sexual gratification. But isn't it arguable that working as a VHM stripper involves at least some degree of "expending your sexual energy on other people"?

[brykster]

This thread is like a car wreck. I come in knowing that I am going to read something that is revolting...

Gavy

things have gone particularly awry from my initial intent. we are...as they say...verrry off topic; but that being said, i find the stuff being discussed here very interesting....and yes, at times, revolting as well.

[Gavvy Cravath]

Thanks, bryk! I am not the only one. I am just a walking "double standard", but I am completely comfortable with that.

Gavy

[justlooking]

It's also because of his personal history before we were togehter that he's able to understand where I'm coming from as well as he does. I guess it's not your average situation.

You need to keep bearing that in mind in discussing this stuff.

[justlooking]

I definitely see that working -- making one's living -- is very different than seeking personal sexual gratification. But isn't it arguable that working as a VHM stripper involves at least some degree of "expending your sexual energy on other people"?

I agree with donq, M, that you're not being completely honest with yourself on this point.

I believe that when you went back to VHM stripping the final time it was primarily about the money.

But I can't believe that all your VHM activities before that were primarily money-based. I think most of them were exploratory or for your own gratification (not necessarily strictly sexual). Like, you did ASSCon primarily for the money? You did that tourist guy primarily for the money? You did CL primarily for the money? I don't think so. I think you did them for the same reason you went to swingers' clubs, or that you purchased commercial sex. Your own writings suggest as much.

[masquerade]

I agree with donq, M, that you're not being completely honest with yourself on this point.

I believe that when you went back to VHM stripping the final time it was primarily about the money.

But I can't believe that all your VHM activities before that were primarily money-based. I think most of them were exploratory or for your own gratification (not necessarily strictly sexual). Like, you did ASSCon primarily for the money? You did that tourist guy primarily for the money? You did CL primarily for the money? I don't think so. I think you did them for the same reason you went to swingers' clubs, or that you purchased commercial sex. Your own writings suggest as much.

Absolutely.... I was not trying to imply that I never had motives outside of the money, I was only speaking of my most current situation. Very few of my out of club experiences were about money at all - you are correct.

[masquerade]

I definitely see that working -- making one's living -- is very different than seeking personal sexual gratification. But isn't it arguable that working as a VHM stripper involves at least some degree of "expending your sexual energy on other people"?

No, I don't believe so. For some sex workers it might be about sex - but it was never about sex for me (very rarely, at least). Indirectly, I got a thrill out of knowing I was doing something sexual for somebody else, but mostly I got off on doing something that society would consider taboo, and that was potentially dangerous for me. I loved that the majority of people who knew me - friends, family, classmates, etc. would just never guess. It was this special naughty secret that was entirely my own, and also - I knew I was good at it. It wasn't just that I was doing something "bad", it was that I could so easily make the transition and jump back and forth. I could sit in class heading a group discussion, or be volunteering at a charity event, and in the back of my head I knew I was a whore. I got the biggest buzz off that part of it. It was such a rollercoaster ride.

I don't think you can call all of that "sexual energy". Can you? It seems like something else entirely.

[justlooking]

Great post.

[justlooking]

And of course -- and now brykster can jump all over me again for saying this -- that is what made you so completely fucking irresistable.

[Axe]

I can't stop thinking about how grossed out I'd be if I was actually dating a "sex worker". Man, the fact that she is sucking someone elses cock really turns my stomach. No matter how cool they are or how "secure" I am, I just couldn't think about sharing my significant other with anyone.

Gavy


Following the logic presesnted so far in this thread, you would NEVER know thats what she is/was, gavy. Or, at least, you'd never hear it from her.

[justlooking]

I'm confused. I thought that the only cock-sucking sex worker posting in this thread said that you WOULD hear it from her.

[Axe]

No, I don't believe so. For some sex workers it might be about sex - but it was never about sex for me (very rarely, at least). Indirectly, I got a thrill out of knowing I was doing something sexual for somebody else, but mostly I got off on doing something that society would consider taboo, and that was potentially dangerous for me. I loved that the majority of people who knew me - friends, family, classmates, etc. would just never guess. It was this special naughty secret that was entirely my own, and also - I knew I was good at it. It wasn't just that I was doing something "bad", it was that I could so easily make the transition and jump back and forth. I could sit in class heading a group discussion, or be volunteering at a charity event, and in the back of my head I knew I was a whore. I got the biggest buzz off that part of it. It was such a rollercoaster ride.

I don't think you can call all of that "sexual energy". Can you? It seems like something else entirely.


Yikes, I dont know where to begin with this one...

If ALL the things you mention are a direct consequence of your sexual activities, then how can you NOT call ALL of that 'sexual energy'? How can 'expending your sexual energy on other people' - which is EXACTLY what you do when you 'expend your sexual energy on other people' in a P4P situation - NOT affect your sexual energy??? Denial aint a river in Egypt, M. Ths is twice now. The other is you dated a stripclub customer but then managed to convince yourself that the relationship with him was so different that it somehow negated the REALITY of the FACT that you dated a stripclub customer.

I try not to make these posts personal; please note that I switched to speaking of 'VHM strippers' generically in an earlier post instead of making this about you. Its great that you post here. But, I can say at this point that if I didnt already know you were a stripper, I would have guessed it with this last post. The degree of mental compartmentalization you show is astounding!

[Axe]

I'm confused. I thought that the only cock-sucking sex worker posting in this thread said that you WOULD hear it from her.

Eventually

And I dare say NEVER if he feels the same way about it as gavy does.

[Gavvy Cravath]

I am not the only guy that thinks like this, am I?

[masquerade]

Yikes, I dont know where to begin with this one...

If ALL the things you mention are a direct consequence of your sexual activities, then how can you NOT call ALL of that 'sexual energy'? How can 'expending your sexual energy on other people' - which is EXACTLY what you do when you 'expend your sexual energy on other people' in a P4P situation - NOT affect your sexual energy??? Denial aint a river in Egypt, M. Ths is twice now. The other is you dated a stripclub customer but then managed to convince yourself that the relationship with him was so different that it somehow negated the REALITY of the FACT that you dated a stripclub customer.

I try not to make these posts personal; please note that I switched to speaking of 'VHM strippers' generically in an earlier post instead of making this about you. Its great that you post here. But, I can say at this point that if I didnt already know you were a stripper, I would have guessed it with this last post. The degree of mental compartmentalization you show is astounding!


First off, the whole denying dating a strip club customer thing happened a long time ago, and I think I have sufficiently explained that I've drastically changed my outlook on a lot of things since then. Not that it's an excuse - I totally admit it was a stupid thing to say considering who I was dating at the time. (this is not the same person I am with now, by the way.)

Secondly - I think you're really misunderstanding me when I refer to "sexual energy". It's not your fault at all, because I realize I haven't done a very good job of explaining what I meant.

See, the P4P activities I was engaged in were most definitely of a sexual nature, and yes, I was exerting some energy to participate in them, but the great majority of the time those activities were not at all sexy to me, and that's what I mean when I say I didn't expend any sexual energy. If I had been turned on by what I was doing, or had been getting off (sexually) then I would agree with you, but I wasn't. Was I turned on by it in other ways? Sure, but very seldom were any of them sexual, as I explained earlier. The excitement for me lay in the thrill and the contradictory quality of whore/vs. everything else I was in life.

Ok.... I'm frustrated right now because I feel like I can't articulate what I'm trying to say..... maybe someone else understands what I'm driving at and can help me out here.

[masquerade]

Following the logic presesnted so far in this thread, you would NEVER know thats what she is/was, gavy. Or, at least, you'd never hear it from her.

Gavy -

I don't know anything about your current relationship status, but have you ever told anyone you were involved with that you paid for sex in the past? If so, how did she react?

Has anyone here done this?

[brykster]

Has anyone here done this?

no way!!!

[masquerade]

no way!!!

but you're such a proponent of not cheating! You don't think it's sort of/kind of cheating to not disclose such an important fact about your sexual history? I'm somewhat surprised, honestly.

Anyway.... what are you doing posting at this hour? I thought I was the only vampire around here.

[Gavvy Cravath]

Gavy -

I don't know anything about your current relationship status, but have you ever told anyone you were involved with that you paid for sex in the past? If so, how did she react?

Has anyone here done this?

Me? I am the biggest hypocrite. Do what I say, not what I do. And I'll own up to that. My line is this:

I lived in Jackson Heights for over five years, there were casa de citas on every block, but it was my neighborhood, so I didn't monger. Plus, I was broke (writer note: actually true). I went to a batchelor party with my friends a few years back at Scores or one of the big Manhattan strip clubs and afterward, my friend convinced me to go to a place where they do massages. I kind of knew what a happy ending was and was all nervous about it. After that happened, I felt really embarrassed.

I admit to that one little instance and then tell whoever I am discussing this with about how I had no money when I would have been into it...how funny life is...blah blah blah...

Something innocent like that. Yes, a major hypocrite right here.

Gavy

[DaveNJ]

Has anyone here done this?


Hell no. I don't think a civilian girl would understand and there would be nothing to be gained on my part. Plus, if it was in my past, its really none of her business anyway. IF I thought there was a good chance she'd understand then I might consider telling her, but I'd have to be pretty damn sure about that.

And just to answer your question to Brykster, no I don't think that is cheating at all. There is a big difference between what someone has done in their past, before hooking up with their SO, and continuing to do them while with their SO.

[brykster]

but you're such a proponent of not cheating! You don't think it's sort of/kind of cheating to not disclose such an important fact about your sexual history? I'm somewhat surprised, honestly.

Anyway.... what are you doing posting at this hour? I thought I was the only vampire around here.

i'd have to go with the second half of DaveNJ on this one. cheating is the here and now act...what i do is lie by omission, any better...that's a judgment call; but like Dave said, i don't think most women would understand. take my sister for instance: about a month ago she was using google and the automatic fill-in for the search term brought up something overtly sexual...big tits or something...anyway, she had a stroke that her husband looks at porn. the only thing that made her understand is when my dad showed her to 40 gigs of porn he has on his computer...then daddy's little girl had no other option than to accept it.

i guess if i get serious enough with an SO that marriage was on the table, i might feel compelled to say something; but probably not. why raise suspicion?

as for the vampire thing, i used to be up that late every night. nowadays, once and a while, i'll catch a second wind...unfortunately it seems to be happening less and less : (

[DaveNJ]

i guess if i get serious enough with an SO that marriage was on the table, i might feel compelled to say something; but probably not. why raise suspicion?


Exactly. Why raise suspicion. AND, even if she does accept/deal with the fact that you have this "past", your basically giving her ammunition for a fight that you eventually will most likely have. I don't think marriage/serious committed relationship means abandoning common sense.

[Axe]

First off, the whole denying dating a strip club customer thing happened a long time ago, and I think I have sufficiently explained that I've drastically changed my outlook on a lot of things since then. Not that it's an excuse - I totally admit it was a stupid thing to say considering who I was dating at the time. (this is not the same person I am with now, by the way.)

Secondly - I think you're really misunderstanding me when I refer to "sexual energy". It's not your fault at all, because I realize I haven't done a very good job of explaining what I meant.

See, the P4P activities I was engaged in were most definitely of a sexual nature, and yes, I was exerting some energy to participate in them, but the great majority of the time those activities were not at all sexy to me, and that's what I mean when I say I didn't expend any sexual energy. If I had been turned on by what I was doing, or had been getting off (sexually) then I would agree with you, but I wasn't. Was I turned on by it in other ways? Sure, but very seldom were any of them sexual, as I explained earlier. The excitement for me lay in the thrill and the contradictory quality of whore/vs. everything else I was in life.

Ok.... I'm frustrated right now because I feel like I can't articulate what I'm trying to say..... maybe someone else understands what I'm driving at and can help me out here.


I think what youre trying to say is that those experiences are sex without love or sex without emotion or sex without attachment. You can correct me if I'm wrong, I dont want to put words in your mouth. My point is those things are STILL sex. This is where you're losing me. Here's the original question that started it all from donqu:

I definitely see that working -- making one's living -- is very different than seeking personal sexual gratification. But isn't it arguable that working as a VHM stripper involves at least some degree of "expending your sexual energy on other people"?

I bolded the part I think you're ignoring. Sheeez, M, you have a tendency for taking the most extreme position to defend your choices in life and you're doing it again here. What you do for money - which IS sex - has ZERO washover into the part of your life that contains the sex WITH love? Maybe you think this is true, but I dont believe it. Maybe the washover is MINIMAL. Maybe you can keep it compartmentalized so it doesnt significantly affect your relationships.

But, ZERO? No way.

[masquerade]

Hell no. I don't think a civilian girl would understand and there would be nothing to be gained on my part. Plus, if it was in my past, its really none of her business anyway. IF I thought there was a good chance she'd understand then I might consider telling her, but I'd have to be pretty damn sure about that.

And just to answer your question to Brykster, no I don't think that is cheating at all. There is a big difference between what someone has done in their past, before hooking up with their SO, and continuing to do them while with their SO.

Hmmm... what's interesting is that although in the past I've lied plenty about my current activities while in a relationship, I've always been pretty honest about the things I did before I met them. Maybe the difference is that I really wouldn't want to be with someone who wasn't open minded about all that stuff, since it represents such a huge part of who I am. Also, I think there's something to be said for men being more apt to deal with a woman who abhors all those things (porn, p4p, stripping) simply because they think all or most women are like that to some degree and therefore it's the way it has to be. Like, I'd like to tell you that you're being presumptuous in saying that you don't think a civilian girl would understand, but truthfully I know you aren't.

For me, there is absolutely no way I would even consider being involved with someone who didn't know about my sex industry past. Thankfully, I have never had any problem finding guys who want to date me despite my sexual history.

[masquerade]

I bolded the part I think you're ignoring. Sheeez, M, you have a tendency for taking the most extreme position to defend your choices in life and you're doing it again here. What you do for money - which IS sex - has ZERO washover into the part of your life that contains the sex WITH love? Maybe you think this is true, but I dont believe it. Maybe the washover is MINIMAL. Maybe you can keep it compartmentalized so it doesnt significantly affect your relationships.

But, ZERO? No way.

I never said that the P4P stuff didn't effect my love relationships at all - to an extent, they did - all of the hiding, lying. What I'm saying is that those p4p sex activities were NOTHING like the activities I engaged in with an SO. I didn't feel even remotely the same during the act - not physically, not emotionally... it's apples and oranges.

I can assure you I am not in denial on this issue - there really wasn't any sexual "washover" as far as I'm concerned. I'm going to go out on a limb here and chalk a lot of our inability to understand one another up to gender differences in attitudes about sex. Making a guy cum is easy... making a woman cum often requires a giant physiological undertaking involving a variety of factors. For the same reason, I believe a female prostitute would have a much easier time keeping her love relationship sexual energy reserve, well.... reserved.

[Axe]

I never said that the P4P stuff didn't effect my love relationships at all - to an extent, they did - all of the hiding, lying. What I'm saying is that those p4p sex activities were NOTHING like the activities I engaged in with an SO. I didn't feel even remotely the same during the act - not physically, not emotionally... it's apples and oranges.

Extreme language again. I understand when you say its not the same as sex with your SO. I understand when you say it doesnt feel the same as it does with your SO. But my eyes roll when you say NOTHING about it is the same. Nothing about it is the same? IT'S STILL SEX. Some things about it MUST be the same!


I can assure you I am not in denial on this issue - there really wasn't any sexual "washover" as far as I'm concerned. I'm going to go out on a limb here and chalk a lot of our inability to understand one another up to gender differences in attitudes about sex. Making a guy cum is easy... making a woman cum often requires a giant physiological undertaking involving a variety of factors. For the same reason, I believe a female prostitute would have a much easier time keeping her love relationship sexual energy reserve, well.... reserved.

I have had loveless, emotionless sex and I am very aware of the differences between that and what its like with a woman that I love. While I wouldnt for a minute claim that is identical to what you're talking about because of our sex difference, I dont see how you can get around the fact that it will have SOME affect - small, tiny, miniscule, or maybe large, but NOT ZERO - on your or my 'sexual energy' or whatever you want to call it and I'm not talking about orgasms, male or female.

ALL the experiences of a person's life go into making them what they are.

Whether each person likes that FACT or not is another matter.

[masquerade]

Extreme language again. I understand when you say its not the same as sex with your SO. I understand when you say it doesnt feel the same as it does with your SO. But my eyes roll when you say NOTHING about it is the same. Nothing about it is the same? IT'S STILL SEX. Some things about it MUST be the same!

Yeah... it is obviously still sex, penis... vagina... etc. But I really don't know how else to get this accross to you - it just didn't feel sexual to me most of the time. It felt like... I don't know... something else. I really can't even compare it to my "normal" sex.


I have had loveless, emotionless sex and I am very aware of the differences between that and what its like with a woman that I love. While I wouldnt for a minute claim that is identical to what you're talking about because of our sex difference, I dont see how you can get around the fact that it will have SOME affect - small, tiny, miniscule, or maybe large, but NOT ZERO - on your or my 'sexual energy' or whatever you want to call it and I'm not talking about orgasms, male or female.

ALL the experiences of a person's life go into making them what they are.

Whether each person likes that FACT or not is another matter.

Of course they do! I was never saying that the things I did p4p wise didn't effect my relationships at all - I was just saying that I didn't feel I was expending sexual energy on those activities, because I wasn't doing them for sexual gratification. When I wanted to get off I had sex with my bf or masturbated, when I felt like being a freaky chick who broke the rules and surprised myself, I put an ad on craig's list.

really, I don't understand what I'm mis-conveying here.

[DaveNJ]

really, I don't understand what I'm mis-conveying here.

IMO, nothing. At this point it seems to be a matter of semantics and definitions. I completely hear what you are saying, and to a large extent agree.

However, I also see Axe's point of view in that regardless of your motives, having sex for any reason (including p4p, being the freaky chick posting on CL, etc) causes you to expend some amount of sexual energy. Whether that amount is large or small doesn't seem to be the point. Even if it is just the amount of energy required to manipulate your body to perform the physical act.

And just trying to clarify something here. In these activities you say didn't require you to expend sexual energy, you didn't enjoy them at all? I understand they may not have caused you to have an orgasm, but that doesn't necessarily mean you didn't enjoy them at least a little. Could you clarify this?

[DaveNJ]

Like, I'd like to tell you that you're being presumptuous in saying that you don't think a civilian girl would understand, but truthfully I know you aren't.


I appreciate your honesty. Ideally, I'd love to find a girl I could share some of my past experiences with, who'd enjoy the fact that I had been pretty naughty in my past, and perhaps help me re-live some of them through fantasy, role-play, etc. Realistically though, I do not expect to find such a girl. If I do great, but if not at least I'm not disappointed. The probem too is that it is impossible to know how a woman might react to disclosure of this information and I honestly feel the odds of a positive reaction are quite low unless she gives indicators stating otherwise (even then its hard to know).


For me, there is absolutely no way I would even consider being involved with someone who didn't know about my sex industry past. Thankfully, I have never had any problem finding guys who want to date me despite my sexual history.

Your very lucky then. Also, please don't take this the wrong way, but you must be one fine piece of ass. Most guys will overlook a lot to be with a super-fox, especially if she's cool, intelligent and down to earth which you seem to be.

[Gavvy Cravath]

Did this chick ever clarify it was a date in a NP4P situation? I need to know!!

Gavy

[masquerade]

IMO, nothing. At this point it seems to be a matter of semantics and definitions. I completely hear what you are saying, and to a large extent agree.

However, I also see Axe's point of view in that regardless of your motives, having sex for any reason (including p4p, being the freaky chick posting on CL, etc) causes you to expend some amount of sexual energy. Whether that amount is large or small doesn't seem to be the point. Even if it is just the amount of energy required to manipulate your body to perform the physical act.

And just trying to clarify something here. In these activities you say didn't require you to expend sexual energy, you didn't enjoy them at all? I understand they may not have caused you to have an orgasm, but that doesn't necessarily mean you didn't enjoy them at least a little. Could you clarify this?


I enjoyed some of the experiences sexually, but it was rare. The pleasure I derived was from the psychological thrill much more than the actual act of sex. The whole ritual of posting an ad, planning the encounter, preparing for it, and then ultimately walking into the hotel room and going through with the whole thing gave me this weird sort of buzz. I loved the unknown mystery of the whole thing.... I loved walking down the street knowing what I about to do and knowing that anyone who looked at me would never have guessed I'd be sucking some stranger's cock for money within the next half hour. Most of the time, I could have done without the actual sex part.... all that other stuff I just described was more than enough to satisfy me. In fact, most of the time I would have preferred it that way. I mean, most of the men I was with in that scenario were kind of gross - let's face it, they were paying me to have sex with them. They were paying me so that they didn't have to care whether or not I was happy with how they smelled or how good their various techniques were, whether I was comfortable or genuinely excited. How turned on would I presumably get?

[masquerade]

Did this chick ever clarify it was a date in a NP4P situation? I need to know!!

Gavy

Yeah, seriously. This thread has turned into tangent-mania. Although, fascinating stuff.

[masquerade]

Your very lucky then. Also, please don't take this the wrong way, but you must be one fine piece of ass. Most guys will overlook a lot to be with a super-fox, especially if she's cool, intelligent and down to earth which you seem to be.

Sheesh... thanks! However (without sounding like I'm making the obligatory modesty comment) I really don't think there's anything physically outstanding about me. I've always thought of myself as more charming than I am attractive, so maybe that's it. A lot of women seem to come up really short in the charm department nowadays.

[DaveNJ]

I mean, most of the men I was with in that scenario were kind of gross - let's face it, they were paying me to have sex with them.

Just to clarify a point, this is precisely why it is completely unrealistic to expect that a civilian woman would understand about a guys P4P past.

[DaveNJ]

Sheesh... thanks! However (without sounding like I'm making the obligatory modesty comment) I really don't think there's anything physically outstanding about me. I've always thought of myself as more charming than I am attractive, so maybe that's it. A lot of women seem to come up really short in the charm department nowadays.

OK, well a good personality, charm, etc. can turn a decent looking, but average girl into a fine POA, IMHO

[Gavvy Cravath]

I enjoyed some of the experiences sexually, but it was rare.

I am going to point something out and you (everyone) may or may not agree, but having sex with a condom really insn't "the be all and end all" of experiences for me. I am going to assume that you used them in p4p situations. They really put a damped on things.

I immediately lose my erection when I place one on. Probably psychological, but...

Gavy

[Axe]

I am going to point something out and you (everyone) may or may not agree, but having sex with a condom really insn't "the be all and end all" of experiences for me. I am going to assume that you used them in p4p situations. They really put a damped on things.

I immediately lose my erection when I place one on. Probably psychological, but...

Gavy


I'd be surprised if anyone disagrees, man or woman.


Sex with a condom is like eating steak with a balloon on your tongue.

[Axe]

A lot of women seem to come up really short in the charm department nowadays.

Right. How big did you say your tits are?

(lol)

[masquerade]

Just to clarify a point, this is precisely why it is completely unrealistic to expect that a civilian woman would understand about a guys P4P past.

I said most of them were gross. There were a few who I would consider attractive. My own bf was with a prostitute once and I certainly find him very attractive. There are plenty of guys out there who have no trouble finding women to fuck them for free who choose to pay for sex every now and then for whatever reason, and I totally understand the motivation. But yes, I agree with you - most civilian women would take it to mean that the guy was hard up for pussy or something.

I feel sorry for you men. Even if you're reasonably good looking, sealing the deal with a woman is so much work.

[DaveNJ]

I feel sorry for you men. Even if you're reasonably good looking, sealing the deal with a woman is so much work.

Care to make it any easier for me?

LOL...I hope you know I was just kidding (sort of ;) )


Seriously, though. I'm not bad to look at, but I just find that I'm too busy with work, etc. sometimes to go through all the extra effort so when I'm between relationships, paying for it helps sometimes. Besides, if I'm not into the girl that much and I can tell she's into me more, it sometimes is more hassle than its worth if I just want to get laid.

[Gavvy Cravath]

My own bf was with a prostitute once and I certainly find him very attractive.

He took a play right out of the "GavyCrav Handbook"! Yes...it was only once. LOL!! :D

Gavy

[Thorn]

Also, I don't have any interest in being with someone who's expending their sexual energy on other people.

When I was a very young man [or older boy, depending on your POV] I worked in place unloading trucks full of magazines. We were allowed to take as many magazines home as we wanted.

Now, I certainly took home magazines about science, politics and the news of the day, but since I was a young, and horny, man I took home plenty of nekkid lady magazines as well.

At least until I got sick of them, which only took about three months.

You work in a highly sexually charged environment. It is so, at least in part, due to the very deliberate placing of sex in the "air" by the dancers present.

That effort expends sexual energy, even if it is only that which it takes to conjure the effect or act the part.

Therefore I submit for your consideration that you expend sexual energy on other people. Even if it is only for profit. Further, I submit that it may very well have an impact on your S.O., even if it is only similar to that which working amid all those sex magazines had on me.

Sorry, but it simply kind of seemed obvious and I wondered how someone as bright as yourself could miss that?

[Thorn]

I guess it's not your average situation.

Based on what little experience I may have from having my own relationships, and being in a good position to observe others, I would gather not.

[Thorn]

I can't stop thinking about how grossed out I'd be if I was actually dating a "sex worker". Man, the fact that she is sucking someone elses cock really turns my stomach. No matter how cool they are or how "secure" I am, I just couldn't think about sharing my significant other with anyone.

I suppose that would depend on what you perceived you were "sharing".

I don't have a problem seperating the physical act of sex from the feelings involve in emotional intimacy.

I don't understand swinging. I will never understand any man who knows his wife/gf cheated on him and then he took her back. Just out of control. Yuck...

This thread is like a car wreck. I come in knowing that I am going to read something that is revolting...

Gavy

Gavy, it is certainly your right to feel about your own actions any way you want. I'd ask that you not judge others about their's so readily though. Especially coming from where you are coming from by way of glass houses, etc. :)

[Thorn]

I definitely see that working -- making one's living -- is very different than seeking personal sexual gratification. But isn't it arguable that working as a VHM stripper involves at least some degree of "expending your sexual energy on other people"?

Whaaaaa! You said that better than I did.


:D

[Thorn]

No, I don't believe so. For some sex workers it might be about sex - but it was never about sex for me (very rarely, at least).


I don't think you can call all of that "sexual energy". Can you? It seems like something else entirely.

Remember, in my comment above, it isn't about SEX, persay. It is about working in an enviorment of sexual activity and what is required of yourself to maintain that enviorment in order to profit by it.

Example in play: The fellow who works in a candy store, who is allowed to have as much candy as he wants, finds he doesn't want much candy after awhile.

[Thorn]

And of course -- and now brykster can jump all over me again for saying this -- that is what made you so completely fucking irresistable.


Feh!

AKFB :D

Laughing WITH you...

[Thorn]

I mean, most of the men I was with in that scenario were kind of gross - let's face it, they were paying me to have sex with them. They were paying me so that they didn't have to care whether or not I was happy with how they smelled or how good their various techniques were, whether I was comfortable or genuinely excited. How turned on would I presumably get?

All guys, Masquerade is being very candid in this, and please take note.

From all the times I have had occasion to have frank discussion about this business with actual providers in it THIS has always been the line of thought.

They can like us as people, though many don't.

They rarely respect us, as we are individuals who have to "pay for it".

And we are "gross" on many levels to them.

It is NOT something I am saying against providers, and in fact it works both ways.

WE ARE ALL subject to the programing we get as we mature in this society. It is simply the effect of that programming.

We are RAISED to think that johns and providers are nasty, gross, people working outside the law and against what is good for society as a whole.

Once you realize that you can let it go to some degree, or completely. Since just because society thinks something is fit and proper doesn't actually make it so.

Anyway... back to our scheduled program.

[masquerade]

Remember, in my comment above, it isn't about SEX, persay. It is about working in an enviorment of sexual activity and what is required of yourself to maintain that enviorment in order to profit by it.

Example in play: The fellow who works in a candy store, who is allowed to have as much candy as he wants, finds he doesn't want much candy after awhile.

I understand what you're saying, Thorn - but I still have to disagree with the validity of this argument. If one does not perceive something as desirable in a certain sense, then how can they tire of it through oversaturation in that same sense? What if the fellow who worked in the candy store in your above analogy really liked candy, but didn't care for the specific type of candy the store sold? Maybe he just derived pleasure from selling the candy to other people, and seeing them enjoy it as much as he did.

The thing is, I've never found that the type of job I've held has had any significant impact on my sex drive. If anything, working regular office hours and having real job responsibilities lowered my sex drive, because I was stressed out all the time and exhausted from having to be awake at hours that felt unnatural to me. Anyway... that's besides the point. The point is, if a certain activity doesn't make you feel a certain way - even if you're putting on a show to give the impression that it does make you feel a certain way - it still doesn't require the same sort of emotional energy that a more genuine feeling would necessitate.

The "sex" that we sex workers place in the air in order to make a living is not really sex to us as far as what feels sexy. It does not stem from our libido. It's the product of a trial and error process involved in figuring out what you guys respond to and what keeps you happy and spending.

[justme]

Maybe the difference is that I really wouldn't want to be with someone who wasn't open minded about all that stuff, since it represents such a huge part of who I am.

Maybe this is self-delusional, but I don't tend to think of commercial sex as being a huge part of what I am.

[donquixote04]

I don't think it's self-delusional, and I think there's a fundamental difference. I'm guessing that you don't make your living from commercial sex, jm, while masquerade does. (duhhh) My profession is a huge part of who I am (despite the fact that I like to think of myself as defined by other characteristics). Partly, it's just that I spend so many hours a week doing my profession that it's bound to become a big part of my identity.

[Gavvy Cravath]

Gavy, it is certainly your right to feel about your own actions any way you want. I'd ask that you not judge others about their's so readily though. Especially coming from where you are coming from by way of glass houses, etc. :)

Not pass judgement...I always thought that is a strange phrase because we judge "everything", it's part of human nature. I see the ':)' and know that we are cool. Remember, I completely admit to being a hypocrite.

Gavy