Does knowledge of her SO ruin it? [Archive]

masquerade

03-31-2007, 01:09 PM

billyS

03-31-2007, 01:33 PM

What do you guys think? Does it ruin the experience for you if she reveals that she's taken? Is there something appropriate one could say in this situation?

If your in the VIP with a guy tell him "Your my boyfreind right now" Then laugh and change the subject. If he's sitting at the bar with you say something like "Why? you want to marry me (with a smile of course)", laugh and then change the subject.

When I ask a stripper if she has a boyfreind, if she says yes then I comment "What a lucky guy", if she says no I usually feign shock "really?, someone as hot as you?"

Providers are a different story. I ask them if they are marrried because it makes it a little more exciting knowing I'm banging someones wife.

masquerade

03-31-2007, 02:26 PM

hmmm.... good ideas, Billy. Thanks. I suppose making light of it is the best approach.

Axe

03-31-2007, 03:08 PM

I prefer honesty.

The only time the answer would definitely change my attitude towards a dancer is if I've had my eye on her for gf and/or fb purposes. Even then, I would still get dances from her, if she's good at it - aka extras - but the total number would be less than if she was really available or lied about it. No doubt about it.

So, while I understand the motivation for lying, I'm also not unaware that its probably what I'm being told. IME, strippers are terrible liars.

masquerade

03-31-2007, 05:42 PM

The situation's pretty complicated for me, though. The majority of my customers are very young - I don't think they have a whole lot of experience with strip clubs or women in general, so a lot of them are eyeing the dancers as potential gfs. The older guys seem a lot more realistic about it. I can tell the older ones I'm involved with someone without fearing it's gonna make things weird or cost me some consecutive dances. A lot of them are married or have been involved with the strip club scene long enough that they realize we're all involved with someone. (I've found that single strippers are sort of rare.) I might as well tell the younger ones I have genital warts, considering the reaction they usually have to the bf thing.

I obviously want to be honest with people, but I'd really prefer to not even mention my bf at work. I talk with my customers about all sorts of personal things, but I would never inquire about their love life - to me that's sort of the one thing that shouldn't be a part of strip club conversations.

lamont5123

03-31-2007, 08:35 PM

Destroy the fantasy? Are you kidding?

Any fool that thinks he has a chance with a stripper who is above a 7 is dreaming. Unless he's filthy rich.

openheads

03-31-2007, 09:25 PM

There is no "fantasy" with me. Going to a strip club is what it is. If you are going to sit down, have a drink with me & talk, then do that. I don't care if you have a bf or not. Most of the time I'm just making conversation anyway. But when I sense your lying to me, it's over. Get away. Honesty will go much further with me.

misterxyz

03-31-2007, 09:30 PM

When I go to a strip club, my main goal is to get takeout. If she has a BF makes no difference to me.

brykster

03-31-2007, 11:19 PM

I've always been curious about this. This is undoubtedly the most common question customers ask me at work - "Do you have a boyfriend?" or, "what does your boyfriend think about you doing this?" I never know how to handle it. Stripper wisdom says I'm supposed to always maintain the illusion of availability, but in my experience this can become tricky. Saying that you do not have a man in your life often leads to a dinner invitation or a request for a phone number, and then it turns into a situation where you have to politely decline, thereby making the guy feel rejected and creating all this awkwardness. (Oh... I dunno... I don't date guys I meet at work... blah blah blah.) Confirming that you do indeed have a significant other seems to have a similar end result. (awkwardness, destruction of the fantasy) I also despise discussing my love life at work out of respect for my SO.... it makes me uncomfortable even mentioning him to customers for some reason. I will gladly discuss other aspects of my personal life without a problem, but this just feels wrong to me. I really don't know how to best handle these inquiries.

What do you guys think? Does it ruin the experience for you if she reveals that she's taken? Is there something appropriate one could say in this situation?

honesty is always the best policy. plus, the damage of a guy finding out you have a significant other is nowhere near as painful as rejection. remember who your clientel is composed of. it is likely these guys have experienced a good deal of rejection from women. let's face it, there aren't many guys out there paying for sex because they like paying for it (i said not many. so all you mongers who consider yourselves winners, keep it to yourself). it also may work in your favor in two ways. firstly, some guys will find it sleazier and more of a taboo to pull off extras with some other dude's chick. secondly, some other guys will see it as a challenge. i know this has happened more than once to me. my current ATF is a Brazilian dancer in Paterson who is married. every time i see her, i'm working to steal her from her husband. that plus when i'm making out with her i'm thinking what if her husband knew? also, she tells me i'm a better kisser and have a nicer dick than her husband...is it true? who knows?...but it makes me feel good. be honest, the guy will respect you as opposed to being suspicious of you. i NEVER believe a stripper who tells me she doesn't have a significant other.

Axe

03-31-2007, 11:26 PM

Axe

03-31-2007, 11:29 PM

i NEVER believe a stripper who tells me she doesn't have a significant other.

lmao.

I cant remember the last time I even asked a stripper if she has a SO. When they volunteer info on their status, no matter WHAT they say, I dont believe it anyway.

masquerade

04-01-2007, 12:53 AM

Reminder: Her problem is the younger guys who havent figured out the stripclub game yet.

M, I think you should not underestimate the "I dont date guys I meet in the club" line. Unless your SO is/was a customer, it also has the benefit of being the truth.

But don't you think saying something like that cheapens the experience for them? Even though most people who go to strip clubs regularly understand the inner workings of them, don't you think it's still just bad business to make the customer feel like a complete comodity? Isn't part of what a stripper's selling the fantasy that she wants you at that moment and nobody else?

Axe

04-01-2007, 02:28 AM

But don't you think saying something like that cheapens the experience for them? Even though most people who go to strip clubs regularly understand the inner workings of them, don't you think it's still just bad business to make the customer feel like a complete comodity? Isn't part of what a stripper's selling the fantasy that she wants you at that moment and nobody else?

Depends on how and when you use it.

You dont say it just because a guy is flirting with you or just because a guy is sending signals he's "interested" or whatever. You use it politely but firmly at the 'moment of truth' when he asks for your phone number and/or asks you on a date. Maybe not so politely if he's being a real pain in the ass. You can then also give him the speech about how many guys a day ask you on dates, blah, blah, blah.

When its reached that point, fantasy time is over and the guy needs to be brought back to reality. If he continues in his behavoir, at least you can say you told him that dating was out of the question when he finally does see that a date is never going to happen and then maybe starts accusing you of leading him on.

You dont have that advantage when you lie. Leading him on is exactly what youre doing when you lie about your availability and dont nip things in the bud when you're asked on a date.

See what I mean about honesty being the way to go? What I'm recommending is a sort of delayed honesty for when it looks like things are about to go out of control.

Gavvy Cravath

04-01-2007, 04:15 AM

As usual, Axe is dead-on with his commentary here. Nice work, my man. Decent thread, masq.

Gavy

genius

04-01-2007, 06:22 AM

But don't you think saying something like that cheapens the experience for them? ...... Whoops, obviously from your post, I got into the wrong thread instead of the one I wanted - Stripclubs,Strippers and Porn Stars.

Ya know the thread - the one that describes the best way to ask seminaked women, as they are grinding their crotch into yours and sticking their tits in your face, if they are willing to give HJ, BJ's etc and for how much.
My mistake.

lamont5123

04-01-2007, 07:25 AM

Axe,

That is excellent advice.

brykster

04-01-2007, 07:55 AM

Depends on how and when you use it.

You dont say it just because a guy is flirting with you or just because a guy is sending signals he's "interested" or whatever. You use it politely but firmly at the 'moment of truth' when he asks for your phone number and/or asks you on a date. Maybe not so politely if he's being a real pain in the ass. You can then also give him the speech about how many guys a day ask you on dates, blah, blah, blah.

When its reached that point, fantasy time is over and the guy needs to be brought back to reality. If he continues in his behavoir, at least you can say you told him that dating was out of the question when he finally does see that a date is never going to happen and then maybe starts accusing you of leading him on.

You dont have that advantage when you lie. Leading him on is exactly what youre doing when you lie about your availability and dont nip things in the bud when you're asked on a date.

See what I mean about honesty being the way to go? What I'm recommending is a sort of delayed honesty for when it looks like things are about to go out of control.

this is all fine and good...but the money stops right there. even if you use a generality like "i Never date anyone in a club", it feels like a rejection. again, guys don't believe what you say anyway, so saying i don't don't guys from the club is the same as saying "ewww...no f*ing way." not a way to win friends or influence people.

now, if you are just blowing the guy off and it's not that you have someone, i guess there the "i don't date club guys" line is appropriate. although, be prepared to deal with the ramifications; because more than likely you will be off the dance card during future visits.

RuffToy

04-01-2007, 09:16 AM

What do you guys think? Does it ruin the experience for you if she reveals that she's taken? Is there something appropriate one could say in this situation?

I have a completely different viewpoint on this. I prefer when the lady has an SO. There's something kind of dirty about fucking around with a gal that goes home to another man. Kind of a bad girl syndrome that turns me on. Also, I don't date!!! Wife has a problem with that. So I guess the question is really presented to single guys that think they may have a chance with dating a stripper. Maybe the fact that I don't go into the scene trying to date a stripper, it has worked out that a few have been interested in seeing me outside. For me, I took it as a compliment but never pulled the trigger.

donquixote04

04-01-2007, 09:26 AM

... M, I think you should not underestimate the "I dont date guys I meet in the club" line.
But let's keep in mind, as JL is fond of saying, that's a very different line from "I dont "date" guys I meet in the club".

justlooking

04-01-2007, 10:19 AM

It didn't start that way, but this thread is beginning to sound eerily familiar.

Axe

04-01-2007, 10:23 AM

this is all fine and good...but the money stops right there. even if you use a generality like "i Never date anyone in a club", it feels like a rejection. again, guys don't believe what you say anyway, so saying i don't don't guys from the club is the same as saying "ewww...no f*ing way." not a way to win friends or influence people.

now, if you are just blowing the guy off and it's not that you have someone, i guess there the "i don't date club guys" line is appropriate. although, be prepared to deal with the ramifications; because more than likely you will be off the dance card during future visits.

It isnt foolproof, Bryk. IMHO, its the least bad of many bad choices she has. I dont see how losing the cust is avoidable once she puts limits on him. Problem is, the alternative is leading him on, and that can lead to much more trouble. I'll explain.

Yes, for some guys, they'll get the point right away and stop buyng dances. But, there's another side to it. There will still be times when the customer wont get what she tells him and he'll just focus on the fantasy aspect of what she does. He'll see everything she does as mixed signals, and if he's really stuck on her, his mind will focus on the fantasy she provides and ignore or supress what she told him. In other words, he wont go away. Instead, he'll become MORE persistent. In that case, she has to repeat the line or even cut him off herself if he gets to be annoying and becomes a potential stalker case.

As an example of what NOT to do, let me tell you what my dumb-ass ex gf who was and still is a stripper used to do until I told her to stop. When custs asked for her phone number, she'd give them a number to a voice mail box that was full all the time so they couldnt leave her a message. Usually the cust got the point and would lose interest. Yes, the dances would stop then too.

But there were still some...

When some custs still didnt get it and things got to the point of her being asked on a date, she'd be agreeable, but would make all kinds of excuses for why she couldnt do it. Eventually, they would get the point too. Again, no more dances.

But, there were still some...

There were always a few very persistent ones who would eventually corner her and insist on a date. When that happened, she'd agree, but then NOT SHOW UP. When he came back to the club, she'd make more excuses. Some custs got it, and others got so pissed off they had to be bounced.

This is the dumbest, craziest, most UNSAFE thing to do EVER. And lots of her stripper friends were doing it too, with the same results!

Stick with the truth, M.

justlooking

04-01-2007, 10:24 AM

It didn't start out that way, but this thread is beginning to sound eerily familiar.

justlooking

04-01-2007, 10:30 AM

So this stripper I "date" invited me to some charity benefit that some other stripper we know was involved with. I get there, and it's running late, so the place isn't open yet. I see my "friend" walking down the street and going into a bar to wait. I follow.

ME: Hi. What's up?

HER: I'm waiting for [her boyfriend's name].

ME: [Her boyfriend's name] is coming? And you invited me?

HER: Yeah. It'll be cool. Pretend you don't know me. You'll like [her boyfriend's name].

ME: Well, I guess I should leave here.

HER: Come on. Sit down. I'll buy you a drink. When he gets here, pretend you just met me at the bar and we found out we're going to the same benefit.

ME (never having turned down a drink in my life): Let me see the cocktail menu . . . .

Her boyfriend arrives. We get along very well. At least according to her, he kept remarking over the next week that none of his bosses at work are as cool as that guy of that age that they met at the benefit.

justlooking

04-01-2007, 10:45 AM

I think the answer to the question that started this thread is that, if a customer asks if you have a boyfriend, you should answer honestly.

You are under no obligation at all, however, to answer any further questions about him. (Certainly not the outrageously out-of-bounds "what does he think about your doing this?") You can just say something like, "Why should we talk about him?"

akm495

04-01-2007, 10:56 AM

Telling them the truth is always the best, or like some else said play it off with humor.

Another method. Tell them No, but I have a girl friend. Smile, wink and walk away.

justlooking

04-01-2007, 11:34 AM

One could have an interesting discussion about what percentage of the strip club experience is about "creating a fantasy."

As much as I hate to admit it, it is not zero.

Of course, the answer is different for guys who go in to get a blow job and leave. Note that this isn't a "high end" v. "low end" thing, as brykster and Axe, for example, are NOT in that camp (although BillyS and genius seem to be).

Now, many guys (me included -- and I know Sambucca has said this) would protest that we don't want a "fantasy"; we want "reality". But I don't really expect that from the strippers I don't become "friends" with, but just briefly meet and chat with in the club. As much as I hate to admit it, for strictly in-club relationships, "fantasy" is a part of what I want.

brykster

04-01-2007, 12:09 PM

I have a completely different viewpoint on this. I prefer when the lady has an SO. There's something kind of dirty about fucking around with a gal that goes home to another man. Kind of a bad girl syndrome that turns me on. Also, I don't date!!! Wife has a problem with that. So I guess the question is really presented to single guys that think they may have a chance with dating a stripper. Maybe the fact that I don't go into the scene trying to date a stripper, it has worked out that a few have been interested in seeing me outside. For me, I took it as a compliment but never pulled the trigger.

this is what i said in post #9.

Axe

04-01-2007, 12:14 PM

One could have an interesting discussion about what percentage of the strip club experience is about "creating a fantasy."

As much as I hate to admit it, it is not zero.

Of course, the answer is different for guys who go in to get a blow job and leave. Note that this isn't a "high end" v. "low end" thing, as brykster and Axe, for example, are NOT in that camp.

True.

Frankly, I find strippers talking about 'providing a fantasy' to be little more than a weak justification for them to behave any old way they want and that includes lying. A guy who wants a date (not a "date") is a very real thing to be dealt with (well, ok, so is the guy who wants a "date") but it calls for a different approach...a REALISTIC one, not one that just puts off the day of reckoning when the consequences have the potential to be much worse.

brykster

04-01-2007, 12:20 PM

Yes, for some guys, they'll get the point right away and stop buyng dances. But, there's another side to it. There will still be times when the customer wont get what she tells him and he'll just focus on the fantasy aspect of what she does. He'll see everything she does as mixed signals, and if he's really stuck on her, his mind will focus on the fantasy she provides and ignore or supress what she told him. In other words, he wont go away. Instead, he'll become MORE persistent. In that case, she has to repeat the line or even cut him off herself if he gets to be annoying and becomes a potential stalker case.

As an example of what NOT to do, let me tell you what my dumb-ass ex gf who was and still is a stripper used to do until I told her to stop. When custs asked for her phone number, she'd give them a number to a voice mail box that was full all the time so they couldnt leave her a message. Usually the cust got the point and would lose interest. Yes, the dances would stop then too.

But there were still some...

When some custs still didnt get it and things got to the point of her being asked on a date, she'd be agreeable, but would make all kinds of excuses for why she couldnt do it. Eventually, they would get the point too. Again, no more dances.

But, there were still some...

There were always a few very persistent ones who would eventually corner her and insist on a date. When that happened, she'd agree, but then NOT SHOW UP. When he came back to the club, she'd make more excuses. Some custs got it, and others got so pissed off they had to be bounced.

This is the dumbest, craziest, most UNSAFE thing to do EVER. And lots of her stripper friends were doing it too, with the same results!

Stick with the truth, M.

i guess someone without veteran status may "get mixed signals." either way, the well will run dry. it's just a matter of how quickly.

your GF was playing with fire in my opinion. good thing you set her straight.

Thorn

04-01-2007, 12:30 PM

It didn't start that way, but this thread is beginning to sound eerily familiar.

Isn't it though.

Axe

04-01-2007, 12:31 PM

i guess someone without veteran status may "get mixed signals." either way, the well will run dry. it's just a matter of how quickly.

Right.

your GF was playing with fire in my opinion. good thing you set her straight.

I told her she was lucky some angry cust hasnt killed her.

genius

04-01-2007, 12:35 PM

....Of course, the answer is different for guys who go in to get a blow job and leave. Note that this isn't a "high end" v. "low end" thing, as brykster and Axe, for example, are NOT in that camp (although BillyS and genius seem to be)....... "fantasy" is a part of what I want.Since you mentioned me I will respond to your post (just a clarification).
1. I have never gone into a strip club for a blow job and leave - in fact I neverwent there for one or had one in one. I go to a strip club once in a (long) while as a way to have a drink or two, each some of the food they may have out and watch some scantily clad women gyrate on the stage.

2. It is clear to me that the only use the girls have for me is strictly as that of a cash cow. Any small talk is clearly directed at getting me interested in asking them for a lap dance and comments on my looks, physique, hair color, language, eye color, occupation are not so subtle means to that end.

3. I simply can not get into any fantasy because the recipe followed by the women borders on the banal to the point where it would be humorous if it just wasn’t repeated virtually identically with each new approach by them for my cash.

I do not think it possible for anyone to say anything to me to “cheapen the experience” nor would knowledge of her SO affect me one way or the other.

justlooking

04-01-2007, 12:37 PM

Frankly, I find strippers talking about 'providing a fantasy' to be little more than a weak justification for them to behave any old way they want and that includes lying.

I agree. When I hear strippers start talking about "creating a fantasy", I reach for my wallet to make sure it's secure.

Thorn

04-01-2007, 12:39 PM

As much as I hate to admit it, for strictly in-club relationships, "fantasy" is a part of what I want.

Hmmm.

High end or low in, in club "relationships" are provider/client business to me.

In those scenarios I want honest dealing and good services. Both of which are enhanced by a lack of a fantasy element involved.

It is outside the club, where the dancer is "seeing" me as a "friend with benefits" [on both sides of the equation... sex for me, monetary support for her] where the ability to suspend reality on both sides is a bit of a help [as long as no one totally loses sight of reality and crosses certain lines].

masquerade

04-01-2007, 12:47 PM

It didn't start out that way, but this thread is beginning to sound eerily familiar.

I know... I know. I went through a period of time recently where what I was selling was very different than what I'm selling now. I'm not really sure what I'm selling now - it's that ambiguity that leads to all these problems for me.

justlooking

04-01-2007, 12:53 PM

masquerade

04-01-2007, 01:00 PM

Depends on how and when you use it.

You dont say it just because a guy is flirting with you or just because a guy is sending signals he's "interested" or whatever. You use it politely but firmly at the 'moment of truth' when he asks for your phone number and/or asks you on a date. Maybe not so politely if he's being a real pain in the ass. You can then also give him the speech about how many guys a day ask you on dates, blah, blah, blah.

When its reached that point, fantasy time is over and the guy needs to be brought back to reality. If he continues in his behavoir, at least you can say you told him that dating was out of the question when he finally does see that a date is never going to happen and then maybe starts accusing you of leading him on.

You dont have that advantage when you lie. Leading him on is exactly what youre doing when you lie about your availability and dont nip things in the bud when you're asked on a date.

See what I mean about honesty being the way to go? What I'm recommending is a sort of delayed honesty for when it looks like things are about to go out of control.

Just so everyone knows, this is more or less my current MO with the situation. I try to avoid their questions as much as possible until it becomes impossible, at which point I say something like, "I have a rule about dating guys I meet at work. It's nothing personal, I just don't think it would be a good idea. sorry." Normally that works out fine, although the dances end there. And that's ok.... I know this is gonna happen all the time as long as what I'm selling is not as straightforward as a bj. I didn't begin this thread to get advice on leading guys on - quite the contrary - I just want to find an effective and diplomatic way to deal with the bf questions without having to really talk about my bf, ya know? I despise the broaching of the subject, because invariably answering "yes, I have a boyfriend" leads to "how does he feel about you doing this?" or, "if you were my gf I wouldn't share you with anyone!" ugh.

Axe

04-01-2007, 01:01 PM

I know... I know. I went through a period of time recently where what I was selling was very different than what I'm selling now. I'm not really sure what I'm selling now - it's that ambiguity that leads to all these problems for me.

Want even more ambiguity?

The fact is that strippers do sometimes date (no quotes) customers. Happens all the time. Strippers are well aware of this and so are many customers.

justlooking

04-01-2007, 01:03 PM

I'm sure M knows that.

masquerade

04-01-2007, 01:11 PM

It's funny you should say that. Because I wanted to ask you if you think the "creating a fantasy" component of your job differs drastically depending on whether you're in VHM mode or not.

I'm not 100% convinced that the answer is "yes," BTW.

I think it definitely differs quite a bit, perhaps "drastically" is too strong of a word, because there is always some aspect of selling a fantasy that goes along with strip club work, regardless of how much mileage you're providing. However, I do think the fantasy element is inversely proportionate to the mileage provided.
Even though I like the place I'm working at a lot more than any other place I've ever worked at, I hate that fact that I'm not selling an actual service to people. It makes me feel like so ridiculous sometimes.

Axe

04-01-2007, 01:14 PM

I just want to find an effective and diplomatic way to deal with the bf questions without having to really talk about my bf, ya know?

There's already been some good advice along those lines. But how about politely saying: "I dont want to talk about my personal life, if you dont mind." ?

I despise the broaching of the subject, because invariably answering "yes, I have a boyfriend" leads to "how does he feel about you doing this?" or, "if you were my gf I wouldn't share you with anyone!" ugh.

Are you sure?

Or, is what you really despise this: the certain knowledge that this customer is gonna competely lose interest in you when the convo is over?

justlooking

04-01-2007, 01:17 PM

I'm not selling an actual service to people.

Sometimes I hate it that I'm not Slinky Bender.

I get deprived of so many orgasms this way.

Axe

04-01-2007, 01:19 PM

I'm sure M knows that.

True. My bad.

masquerade

04-01-2007, 01:28 PM

There's already been some good advice along those lines. But how about politely saying: "I dont want to talk about my personal life, if you dont mind." ?

Are you sure?

Or, is what you really despise this: the certain knowledge that this customer is gonna competely lose interest in you when the convo is over?

In response to the first part of this post -

I think what I have a hard time with is saying anything that seems abrasive or curt. I've always been terrible with that. My work demeanor is always really soft, amiable, and sing-songy - much to my own detriment sometimes.

in regards to your question -

I despise both things. I hate discussing my bf and I hate knowing the gravy train is coming to a screeching halt. Both suck.

franca

04-01-2007, 01:28 PM

You could give them this number: 212-479-7990

masquerade

04-01-2007, 01:34 PM

lmao. Nice, Franca.

Axe

04-01-2007, 01:44 PM

In response to the first part of this post -

I think what I have a hard time with is saying anything that seems abrasive or curt. I've always been terrible with that. My work demeanor is always really soft, amiable, and sing-songy - much to my own detriment sometimes.

in regards to your question -

I despise both things. I hate discussing my bf and I hate knowing the gravy train is coming to a screeching halt. Both suck.

I'm all out of advice.

Both these 'problems' are things you have only partial control over when you meet up with them and they both are an unavoidable part of being a stripper.

masquerade

04-01-2007, 02:07 PM

I'm all out of advice.

Both these 'problems' are things you have only partial control over when you meet up with them and they both are an unavoidable part of being a stripper.

I know. I really do need to learn to be direct when a situation demands it. My lack of conviction has caused far too many problems for me, both in and out of work.

justlooking

04-01-2007, 02:19 PM

I had thought that maybe that was one of the lessons your non-strip-club sex work had taught you.

masquerade

04-01-2007, 02:23 PM

I had thought that maybe that was one of the lessons your non-strip-club sex work had taught you.

Well, to some degree it did. Although my involvment with non-stip-club sex work was so limited and felt so very different from stripping that I'm not sure how much it really taught me in relation to this subject.

greyfox

04-01-2007, 03:18 PM

When I go to a strip club, my main goal is to get takeout. If she has a BF makes no difference to me.
I disagree.I may be a pussy but a few questions like, how much does he benchpress,is he jammed up now,what's he serving time for and when is he up for parole are usually part my interrogation if she has a BF.

masquerade

04-01-2007, 04:16 PM

I disagree.I may be a pussy but a few questions like, how much does he benchpress,is he jammed up now,what's he serving time for and when is he up for parole are usually part my interrogation if she has a BF.

Forgive me if you were just kidding, but I have a feeling you were at least partly serious - so.....

Do you really think those types of questions are appropriate? How would you feel if a stripper started grilling about your wife or girlfriend - Does she have a hang up with oral sex? Has she let herself go over the years? Does she realize how much money you spend in strip clubs? etc.?

greyfox

04-01-2007, 05:39 PM

masquerade

04-01-2007, 06:02 PM

A)There wasn't the slightest hint of truth in my post.
B)Girls say and ask "inappropriate" shit in clubs all the time.
C)None of those questions bother me.
D)In answer to the question posed in the initial thread post,knowing that a stripper has a man doesn't affect whether I get dances from her in the club,ask her out or ultimately have sex with her.While prattling on about your man would be dumb unless the customer inquires,lying about having a SO is a part of the stripper code which I think can be counterproductive at least as often as it is useful.

I thought you might be joking, sorry about that.

Anyway - even if those questions wouldn't bother you or some of the other less sensitive guys out there, I still think they're extremely innapropriate and I myself would never pose them to a customer at work. I understand that many guys who visit strip clubs would rather not think about their SO while they're there - either out of respect or because they just want to pretend they don't exist for a little while. Likewise, I feel it's very innapropriate for customers to ask me personal questions about my relationship; it's none of their business. Obviously guys at work ask me personal questions all the time that are none of their business, and the majority of the time I actually enjoy answering them *, but when it comes to my love life and I happen to be working in an environment that is somewhat - for lack of a better word - challenging to my relationship, I'd rather discuss other things. Perhaps this is just me, but I have a feeling a lot of strippers feel the same way.

* for example - "Are you completely shaved down there?"
"What's your favorite position?"
"What do you like to do when you're not working?"
"Does your family know what you do for a living?"
"Do you like working here?"
"What do you do when a customer really grosses you out?"

franca

04-01-2007, 07:26 PM

...guys at work ask me personal questions all the time that are none of their business, and the majority of the time I actually enjoy answering them...
...for example - "Are you completely shaved down there?"
"What's your favorite position?"
"What do you like to do when you're not working?"
"Does your family know what you do for a living?"
"Do you like working here?"
"What do you do when a customer really grosses you out?"

I often find questions like that make me uncomfortable, except when asked in a detached sort of way in an anonomous forum as a point of discussion. If some guy were to call me and ask me things like that while trying to make an appointment that would not go over well with me.

justlooking

04-01-2007, 07:34 PM

But strip clubs are weird. If you didn't talk about stuff like that, what would you do?

franca

04-01-2007, 07:43 PM

Talk about the same stuff that people talk about when they're not in strip clubs?

justlooking

04-01-2007, 07:50 PM

Like what?

justlooking

04-01-2007, 07:52 PM

My experience, outside of strip clubs, of talking to women I don't know who are pretending to be sexually interested in me in order to induce me to purchase watered-down virtually-non-sexual sexual services for much more than they're worth is limited.

franca

04-01-2007, 07:53 PM

Like what?

Infibulation maybe?

justlooking

04-01-2007, 07:53 PM

(Actually, in truth, when you find a stripper with whom who you have sufficient common interests to have a normal conversation, well, you know . . . .)

franca

04-01-2007, 07:56 PM

Like what?

Opera?

franca

04-01-2007, 07:56 PM

Like what?

Red meat?

justlooking

04-01-2007, 08:11 PM

Hey, how did you make the infibulation post disappear?

franca

04-01-2007, 08:30 PM

I didn't make it disappear.

justlooking

04-01-2007, 08:34 PM

Oh I see. Sorry.

In that case:

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

masquerade

04-01-2007, 08:35 PM

What? what did I miss?

masquerade

04-01-2007, 08:36 PM

Oh, nevermind. Thanks Wikipedia.

justlooking

04-01-2007, 08:37 PM

http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?p=300256&highlight=infibulation#post300256

masquerade

04-01-2007, 08:38 PM

I often find questions like that make me uncomfortable, except when asked in a detached sort of way in an anonomous forum as a point of discussion. If some guy were to call me and ask me things like that while trying to make an appointment that would not go over well with me.

I mean, yeah.... but I feel like it's a little different when you're face to face. I have a much higher tolerance of weird personal questions when they aren't being asked in a breathy perv voice over the phone. I kind of like these weird questions because they break up the monotony of the night.

masquerade

04-01-2007, 08:41 PM

http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?p=300256&highlight=infibulation#post300256

you kill me.

franca

04-01-2007, 08:51 PM

Oh god, if they asked me anything with a breathy perv voice over the phone, that would be the end of the conversation.

masquerade

04-01-2007, 09:14 PM

Oh god, if they asked me anything with a breathy perv voice over the phone, that would be the end of the conversation.

Funny story -

one of the first guys I ever saw off of my craig's list ad was really pervy like this. I should have known better right off the bat since he was acted really weird on the phone. (well, actually - how could I have? I was totally naive at the time.) Anyway - after our first meeting I decided i never, ever wanted to see his stupid face again but he kept calling me anyway and trying to arrange another meeting. Each time that I'd inadvertently answer the phone he'd start trying to talk dirty to me. I've never really hung up on anyone before, so I don't really consider it as an option when I definitely should be hanging up on someone. He certainly deserved it.

Anyway - I'm on a family vacation at a beach house my parents had rented out, and my cell phone rings while we're in the middle of my sister's birthday cake....

hello?

hiiiiii. it's me.

um... hey. can I call you back? I'm busy right now.

what are you dooooing? I'm just sitting here strokin' it and thinking about us together. Are you wet? when can I see you again?

uhhhh... ok. sure. I have to go. I'll talk to you later.

This is the same guy who, after agreeing on a set price with me over the phone, told me after our session was over that he only had half that amount to give to me. Shame on me for not asking for the money up front, but you live and learn I guess. I insisted we walk over to an atm machine to get the rest of the money, which he agreed to but still only gave me another 40 bucks. The entire trip there he bitched to me about how he never paid this much for sex and he felt like i was ripping him off. I was furious.

franca

04-01-2007, 09:19 PM

Oh what a charmer. And after that you didn't consider hanging up on him an option???

masquerade

04-01-2007, 09:23 PM

Oh what a charmer. And after that you didn't consider hanging up on him an option???

I am way too nice to people when they are entirely undeserving. I consider it one of my biggest failings.

Gavvy Cravath

04-01-2007, 09:28 PM

I am way too nice to people when they are entirely undeserving. I consider it one of my biggest failings.

That's funny, brykster and bunyon were just saying the same thing about you. Keen observation...

franca

04-01-2007, 09:32 PM

I am way too nice to people when they are entirely undeserving. I consider it one of my biggest failings.

The first time is the hardest. After that it gets easier. Practice saying this in the mirror:

"Please, don't ever contact me again."

masquerade

04-01-2007, 09:36 PM

That's funny, brykster and bunyon were just saying the same thing about you. Keen observation...

Um, why do you think I enjoy posting on an anonymous whoreboard so much?? Sigh. If only I could transfer some of this fiestiness over to my "real" life. Things would be so much easier.

Thorn

04-02-2007, 01:54 AM

I think it definitely differs quite a bit, perhaps "drastically" is too strong of a word, because there is always some aspect of selling a fantasy that goes along with strip club work, regardless of how much mileage you're providing. However, I do think the fantasy element is inversely proportionate to the mileage provided.
Even though I like the place I'm working at a lot more than any other place I've ever worked at, I hate that fact that I'm not selling an actual service to people. It makes me feel like so ridiculous sometimes.

Than, at least indirectly, you concur with what I said above.

Thorn

04-02-2007, 02:07 AM

Well, to some degree it did. Although my involvment with non-stip-club sex work was so limited and felt so very different from stripping that I'm not sure how much it really taught me in relation to this subject.

I know it is me, but I don't equat directness, or frankness to put it better, as being equivilent to being insensitive.

I think one can be incredibly candid and still be polite.

I get on with most of the dancers I know fairly well because I am very direct in my conversations with them, while at the same time being respectful and polite. They know exactly what I am looking for, I take no for an answer gracefully. I reward yes as an answer with appropriate generosity. I allow them, if they must, to maintain any facades they feel make their decisions more comfortable to them.

I'm sure there is a line where candor becomes vulgar but I think that line is further up the scale than most people, who in the process of hedging their bets, would place it.

donquixote04

04-02-2007, 08:37 AM

... This is the same guy who, after agreeing on a set price with me over the phone, told me after our session was over that he only had half that amount to give to me. ... I insisted we walk over to an atm machine to get the rest of the money, which he agreed to but still only gave me another 40 bucks. The entire trip there he bitched to me about how he never paid this much for sex and he felt like i was ripping him off. I was furious.
Did his name start with qqq?

Axe

04-02-2007, 03:52 PM

Since we're about a hundred light years away from the thread topic, I might as well throw this one out:

Talk about the same stuff that people talk about when they're not in strip clubs?

Like what?

Here's what appears to the top five favorite subjects of conversation for strippers IF the customer/victim doesnt make any effort whatsoever to steer the convo into another direction:

1] How fucking cheap the customers are tonight

2] How some customer recently did or said something to her that she really didnt like

3] Something related to her outfit, hair, nails, and/or makeup

4] Something related to the music she picks to dance to

5] Something related to her educational/recreational (i.e., a vacation)/travel/long-term career ambitions

See a pattern in the five I listed?

Of course this excludes cases where VHM will take place when there is a brief offer/counteroffer/negotiation followed by delivery of the sevice. But, watch out even then because except for the period of time when she has her mouth full, you might STILL get to hear about one or all five.

Sorry, I couldnt resist the sarcasm.

masquerade

04-02-2007, 11:00 PM

Here's what appears to the top five favorite subjects of conversation for strippers IF the customer/victim doesnt make any effort whatsoever to steer the convo into another direction:

1] How fucking cheap the customers are tonight

2] How some customer recently did or said something to her that she really didnt like

3] Something related to her outfit, hair, nails, and/or makeup

4] Something related to the music she picks to dance to

5] Something related to her educational/recreational (i.e., a vacation)/travel/long-term career ambitions

See a pattern in the five I listed?

Of course this excludes cases where VHM will take place when there is a brief offer/counteroffer/negotiation followed by delivery of the sevice. But, watch out even then because except for the period of time when she has her mouth full, you might STILL get to hear about one or all five.

Sorry, I couldnt resist the sarcasm.

Sad but true, Axe. I always try to talk to the customer about their day or things I think might be of interest to them. Funny thing is though, it seems that a lot of the time it's THEM who ends up pulling the conversation back to the five topics you listed above. I honestly think there are some regulars who kind of get off on hearing the girls chit chat about their jobs and lives and problems, as if it makes them feel a part of something secret and fascinating.

PS - I think you left one important item off your list:

6] Something related to how skanky/annoying/strange some other girl they work with is.

franca

04-03-2007, 12:14 AM

masquerade

04-03-2007, 12:34 AM

There is one topic of conversation that will ingratiate you with nearly everybody in almost any situation--their children. However, I'm not so sure how well it flies in a strip club. I find that many of my clients love to talk about their kids, and I'll ask them how they're doing the next time we meet. Does this work in strip clubs? From either side of the transaction? Does this fall into a similar category as the SO for many of you?

I don't have any kids yet, but I've worked with plenty of strippers who do. Every time this topic has ever come up I've been told that they hate talking about their kids with customers. I even recall a fight that broke out between two dancers over one of them telling the other's regular customer about her two kids. So, I think that it does indeed fall into the same category as the SO - it's probably a subject held even more sacred. I know lots of guys (younger ones, mostly) who are turned off sexually by motherhood. I can only assume that's another big reason why strippers with kids tend to keep it quiet outside of the dressing room.

Personally, I like to maintain the carefree and unattached yet driven young woman image.... it's always worked very well for me, and I don't know how my customers knowing I had children (if I did) could ever factor into the equation sucessfully.

franca

04-03-2007, 12:49 AM

I completely understand why strippers and escorts don't like to talk about their children. Guys can be weird about that. Plus, giving up personal information can give clients-turned-stalker more ammunition for their attacks. I don't have children either, so I really wouldn't know how I'd feel about discussing them. I'd probably handle it the same way I'd handle the SO question--just be honest, say I'm a mother, and leave it at that.

On the other side, the men I see usually like talking about their children. Of course, for all they know, I could be a whack job planning my own attack. I'm not, of course. :rolleyes:

Lord Soth

04-03-2007, 03:45 AM

brykster

04-03-2007, 03:55 AM

brykster

04-03-2007, 04:10 AM

...perhaps, not so much a lower end - high end difference; but i've yet to come accross a dancer who did not want to talk about her children. maybe it's because i'm a shrink and they see me as a good person to talk to. invariably, they all wind up saying they are depressed and miss their kids.

greyfox

04-03-2007, 04:49 AM

I don't have any kids yet, but I've worked with plenty of strippers who do. Every time this topic has ever come up I've been told that they hate talking about their kids with customers. I even recall a fight that broke out between two dancers over one of them telling the other's regular customer about her two kids. So, I think that it does indeed fall into the same category as the SO - it's probably a subject held even more sacred.

Personally,I've found that this couldn't be further from the truth.Toilet training,dealing with pre school,custody battles,birthday party plans are all topics I've gotten into with dancers at clubs.

masquerade, you seem to be of the school that believes fantasy and illusion are the essential for the dancer/customer interaction at clubs.I understand this.Guys are dumb but at some point we can get turned off by that.This may work better at certain venues where the customers are the occasional strip club customer/out of town businesss guy etc,

There is another dynamic which can also work. It's the anonymity/immediate intimacy model.A little like psychotherapy,a little like Oprah people unload their secrets with impunity.They feel better and some guys like hearing it,maybe because they deal with driven career minded women at work or home who are so guarded that they seem icy,and a little mess from a woman who is a stranger is a welcome bit of humanity and reality.So,it comes back to what we want..... fake sex that's real or fake sex that's fake.Different strokes...big tits,small tits...there's no correct answer to your original question.It varies among dancers and customers.Don't think too much,do what's comfortable for you and you'll attract a certain type of customer,and maybe turn off others.C'est la vie.

justlooking

04-03-2007, 07:27 AM

Out of two threads of Stripper Chit-Chat, I think this one is still my favorite:

http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?p=300227&highlight=fatback#post300227

brykster

04-03-2007, 07:46 AM

Out of two threads of Stripper Chit-Chat, I think this one is still my favorite:

http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?p=300227&highlight=fatback#post300227

...on second though, maybe strippers who speak no English ain't such a bad thing : )

justlooking

04-03-2007, 07:59 AM

Are you kidding, brykster? I wouldn't have missed out on that conversation for the world.

masquerade

04-03-2007, 01:05 PM

Personally,I've found that this couldn't be further from the truth.Toilet training,dealing with pre school,custody battles,birthday party plans are all topics I've gotten into with dancers at clubs.

masquerade, you seem to be of the school that believes fantasy and illusion are the essential for the dancer/customer interaction at clubs.I understand this.Guys are dumb but at some point we can get turned off by that.This may work better at certain venues where the customers are the occasional strip club customer/out of town businesss guy etc,

There is another dynamic which can also work. It's the anonymity/immediate intimacy model.A little like psychotherapy,a little like Oprah people unload their secrets with impunity.They feel better and some guys like hearing it,maybe because they deal with driven career minded women at work or home who are so guarded that they seem icy,and a little mess from a woman who is a stranger is a welcome bit of humanity and reality.So,it comes back to what we want..... fake sex that's real or fake sex that's fake.Different strokes...big tits,small tits...there's no correct answer to your original question.It varies among dancers and customers.Don't think too much,do what's comfortable for you and you'll attract a certain type of customer,and maybe turn off others.C'est la vie.

Well, you're partly right about me, but I don't always keep my guard up. There are lots of times where I discuss very personal and real issues with customers, or at least there used to be. I just don't run into people at work anymore who are interesting to talk to. Perhaps they would be more interesting to talk to if I did let a little of my "mess" hang out. I think that tonight I'm going to try being brutally honest with little provocation and see what happens.

nychelsea

04-03-2007, 02:05 PM

As usual, JL is on target. In my days at the clubs, my whole deal was to get to know the girls well enough to see them outside the club. It was almost like a game - that is, to see how long it would take. In fact, it wast the type of thing that I could have run a pool on, if I was so inclined. Now, it is simply too much work. The mostly high end clubs in Manhattan are long on loud music, making conversations a challenge. Maybe I'm losing my hearing, not to mention my taste for head banging acid rock!

Long live JL, the master of the clubs!

Enjoy,

Chels

justlooking

04-03-2007, 02:20 PM

Chels, you need to post more.

masquerade

04-03-2007, 02:25 PM

Yes, you are spending far too little time on UG. Get your priorities straight!

Axe

04-03-2007, 02:44 PM

Out of two threads of Stripper Chit-Chat, I think this one is still my favorite:

http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?p=300227&highlight=fatback#post300227

That thread was one of the first I read when I signed up on UG.

My sides were hurting from laughing for two days.

lamont5123

04-03-2007, 04:16 PM

Axe,

I agree. I was just there and was laughing so hard I spit out my bubble gum.

Thorn

04-03-2007, 05:47 PM

Just curious.

Did you miss

http://utopiaguide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=649739&postcount=79

and/or

http://utopiaguide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=649740&postcount=80

simply have no opinion, or did I do or say something that offended you?

I am neither hurt or offended at being ignored... just perplexed as to why.

Sorry, like I said, I am direct. If I have a desire to know something from someone, I ask. [Especially if it's the only way to find out what one wants to know. ]

Thorn

04-03-2007, 05:57 PM

I dated a stripper who worked at the Tender Trap for many years....this is about 5 years ago....and we dated for 4 months until she told me she had a child (her ex had full custody)....it did not bother me at all..it bothered me she never told me but I can understand the reasons why......We ended up breaking up about 3 months later when she cheated on me........But for the kid thing I knew several of the girls she worked with that never told but only a few admitted to having kids....

Let me preface this with a disclaimer that I am NOT talking about all strip-club female employees [dancers, shot girls, massage girls, bartenders, etc].

I have noted an incredibly ironic situation with more than a handful of them though that I have either dated myself, when I worked in strip-clubs as a bouncer, or those stories related to me by friends who also dated women who worked in strip-clubs.

I was amazed by how many of them demanded complete fidelity [not that they aren't deserving of same] from the men in their lives, yet would wind up cheating on those same men they demanded that level of faithfulness from.

I always considered that rather paradoxical. :)

Thorn

04-03-2007, 06:24 PM

masquerade, you seem to be of the school that believes fantasy and illusion are the essential for the dancer/customer interaction at clubs.

I mean absolutely no disrespect for any dancer that feels this way.

Saying that I have found, in general, that they wind up having negative feelings about dealing with me. Either in strip-clubs or on websites like "stripper-web".

You see, I refuse to suspend reality when entering these establishments, so when the dancers attempt to sell fantasy to me I, very politely, say that I am not buying fantasy today. I don't want to pretend that a pretty 20 something wants to get incredibly intimate with a man twice plus her age, who is a tad out of shape, who she knows not from adam other than that I obviously make a good living and have "X" amount of disposable income based on the shoes and *****ry I wear.

I do, very politely, let them know that I am not adverse to spending money but fantasy, all by itself, isn't my cup of tea. For some reason this offends some of this particular type of dancer. I don't know exactly why it should, as no one has been rude to them and certainly no one is saying, "you have no options here." What only is being said is that if you have particular services to sell I am certainly open to hearing about them and perhaps coming to mutual agreement, and if you don't we can certainly talk about something else.

It would seem that this particular type of dancer believes that if I am occupying space within the club, drinking my beverage and taking in the surroundings, I have some sort of obligation to fit myself into a particular pigeon hole regarding my taste in LD room company.

What, perhaps, compounds the problem is I don't fit in easily with the definition of an "extras" seeking customer. I am neither loud or offensive. I am clean in my appearance and polite in demeanor. I don't judge them for NOT providing extras and don't take ready offense when they seem to judge me for seeking them [even though they have damn little cause, reason or right to judge].

Like I said, this is not ALL dancers. Just a certain passive aggressive type who seem to think they have a right to expect all strip-club customers to fall into a single specific [which happens to be precisely the type that desire the services they are selling, which is considerable convenient for them I am sure]

Thorn

04-03-2007, 06:36 PM

I think that tonight I'm going to try being brutally honest with little provocation and see what happens.

I think you would find that a patron like myself, after some conversation that was refreshingly candid and real, would purchase a dance or two or three from you, even if all you were doing was "fantasy" dancing, to compensate you for being such a breath of fresh air.

masquerade

04-03-2007, 06:40 PM

Thorn

04-03-2007, 07:27 PM

Thorn, you absolutely did not offend me. I'm sorry I have not responded to your previous posts. I have gotten a bit caught up in other areas of the board over the last couple of days but promise to comment on all your input shortly.

Ok, cool.

I just wasn't totally sure and, like I said, to me the best way to find out something you don't know is to ask. :)

masquerade

04-04-2007, 02:07 AM

So, to update:

I went to work tonight and decided to directly address the bf question and answer honestly when it was posed to me. Noone cared. Like, at all. It was totally fine. In fact, it was great - because by not dodging the question I didn't have to deal with anyone asking me out and it then being even more awkward because I'd have to reject them. It made things so much easier.

masquerade

04-04-2007, 02:20 AM

Than, at least indirectly, you concur with what I said above.

well, sort of. I agree that it is a business/client relationship and that honesty in the exchange of services and money is very important, but I really think that at least a portion of a stripper or prostitute's "services" are the elements of fantasy she provides. I mean, if it were all just straightforward services, (hj, bj, full service) then what would happen if she didn't like you? Isn't part of her job to pretend she digs you even if she thinks you're the most vile person in the universe? You don't feel like that's partly what a lot of people are paying for? (I'm not saying it's what YOU have to necessarily pay for - but I know for a fact that a lot of guys do.)

Perhaps fantasy is the wrong word here. I don't know.

masquerade

04-04-2007, 02:26 AM

You see, I refuse to suspend reality when entering these establishments, so when the dancers attempt to sell fantasy to me I, very politely, say that I am not buying fantasy today. I don't want to pretend that a pretty 20 something wants to get incredibly intimate with a man twice plus her age, who is a tad out of shape, who she knows not from adam other than that I obviously make a good living and have "X" amount of disposable income based on the shoes and *****ry I wear.

Yeah, but don't you want some element of what you just described in conjunction with the extras you purchase?

brykster

04-04-2007, 04:06 AM

Yeah, but don't you want some element of what you just described in conjunction with the extras you purchase?

no...absolutely not!!! what you don't seem to get are that guys are not as stupid as you assume them to be. we KNOW when it's bullshit. i don't care how good of an actress you are.

you are trying to protect yourself with the fantasy...but don't make the mistake of fooling yourself into thinking it's what the customer wants. perhaps you may get away with it with your clients (you said they are younger and inexperienced); but anyone who has spent a day would know.

you see, being lied to is insulting. it's not sexy, it's not fantasy...it's not anything but a lie. Thorn is right on here....whether or not you want him to be.

justlooking

04-04-2007, 06:13 AM

FWIW, I kinda disagree. One of the reasons I prefer strip-club extras to brothels is because that fantasy comes with it.

justlooking

04-04-2007, 08:04 AM

justlooking

04-04-2007, 08:06 AM

(I don't want to make it seem like this is some constant so-called "high end" v. so-called "low end" war, but it seems to me that one reason for our differing responses is that it must be much harder for strippers to do the "seduction" thing with any plausibility if there's a serious language barrier.)

justlooking

04-04-2007, 08:13 AM

(Another reason that this may be more prevelant in the so-called "high end" is that it's a sort of artifact of the sales approach needed for the low-mileage stuff that such clubs ostensibly offer. So, at least for the best girls, it remains part of the approach even when they switch into VHM mode.)

Thorn

04-04-2007, 09:23 AM

I mean, if it were all just straightforward services, (hj, bj, full service) then what would happen if she didn't like you? Isn't part of her job to pretend she digs you even if she thinks you're the most vile person in the universe? You don't feel like that's partly what a lot of people are paying for? (I'm not saying it's what YOU have to necessarily pay for - but I know for a fact that a lot of guys do.)

Perhaps fantasy is the wrong word here. I don't know.

I understand that it is part and parcel of what most people do but it doesn't work for me. My antenna is to attuned to dishonest feelings and emotions and I can't ignore the information it gives me.

Example: In general I get along with dancers, providers, folks in general, etc.

There is a provider here I am friendly enough with and respect as a person but whose personal chemistry with me is totally off. As a client/provider we have no use for each other.

We found that out when we crossed that line one afternoon and, I mean, neither of us were feeling anything. Out of kindness I said nothing. Out of service she tried to put on a good show. The show only made it worse because I absolutely knew as it was happening that it was just that, a show. Man, it was god awful.

How much better would it have been to just say, "You know what, for what ever reason this is just not working out. Let's split the difference and end it here before we are both weirded out beyond the pale."?

I learned, from that exchange, it is simply easier to be up front about it in these things. What works, for me, is either 1) The provider feels no personal chemistry with me but gives professional service [that means no faking orgasms and other, "I am so into this", acting] or, 2) Legit, "I am so into this. Let's make the most of this." Technical proficiency alone or true passion is sufficient in and of itself to warrant my feeling my investment was well founded.

Yeah, but don't you want some element of what you just described in conjunction with the extras you purchase?

Of course to have both is ideal, but that is a rare thing in this business isn't it? [it is technical proficiency that I expect in strip-clubs from dancers doing extras... how could it be otherwise from a situation with someone you met on a bar stool or at a table a few minutes ago... now with a regular, maybe that's different].

side note: One of the good things about PMB's is that one exchanges feelings on issues, etc, with someone else and develops repoire. That can increase the likelihood of some legitimate passion [within reason... I'm not talking potential stalker weirdness] in what is otherwise a very commercial enviorment.

brykster

04-04-2007, 09:24 AM

So I don't sound like a complete lameass, let me expand on that.

Strippers, in order to get your business, have to "seduce" you.

Most of them are terrible at it, and it's transparently fake, and we hate it.

But some are really good at it -- REALLY good, in some cases -- and I, at least, love that.

Brothel girls NEVER act like they have to do that.

you may be right about the language issue...but really have you ever had to question what was what. you (and most guys) are smarter than that and i'm sure you can see through the BS no matter how convincing it is.

put it this way, has there been a dancer who you thought was really into you; and then denied you on a phone number or outdoor activity. or is it more that you know you're being fed shit; but you figure, "ehh, i'll just go with it.' and don't bother asking for the number because deep down inside you know she's insincere? unless you're getting ld's from Merryl Streep (yichhh) or Julia Roberts i think the number of times you see through the vail far outweigh the number of times that you buy it...if at all.

Thorn

04-04-2007, 09:40 AM

FWIW, I kinda disagree. One of the reasons I prefer strip-club extras to brothels is because that fantasy comes with it.

You and I have so "done this before". :)

This is about the sole area we differ on when it comes to strip-clubs, and you know I respect your position with this. I just disagree with it.

While I know that you know, and can handle it, it is these 'rose tinted specs' that cause people to cross the lines into thinking something "real" is happening. It is the source of stalker behavior. It is what makes guy's hit the club ATM for thousands of dollars worth of funny money.

When it happens on the dancer side it is what causes them to think the asshole, crappy guitarist/DJ they are dating actually cares about them instead of just using them for the money they make.

It is all about one thinking they are sinking foundations into bedrock instead of clay because they couldn't tell the difference between the two.

I know you actually know the difference, and that many people who are "normal" can. But these environments attract so many people who have some issues to begin with... they can't always and these are the ones whose travel down this primrose path can lead to very bad things. You and I have been around long enough to see and hear of it happen how many times? And even "normal" people can slip a little in muddy water, if they don't watch their footing carefully.

justlooking

04-04-2007, 09:44 AM

Thorn, sometimes I think you forget that people go to these places TO HAVE A GOOD TIME.

justlooking

04-04-2007, 09:50 AM

you may be right about the language issue...but really have you ever had to question what was what. you (and most guys) are smarter than that and i'm sure you can see through the BS no matter how convincing it is.

put it this way, has there been a dancer who you thought was really into you; and then denied you on a phone number or outdoor activity. or is it more that you know you're being fed shit; but you figure, "ehh, i'll just go with it.' and don't bother asking for the number because deep down inside you know she's insincere? unless you're getting ld's from Merryl Streep (yichhh) or Julia Roberts i think the number of times you see through the vail far outweigh the number of times that you buy it...if at all.

I don't know exactly how to say this, but I think you (and Thorn) are making this out to be something more than it is.

How hard is it for some girl to make like she's interested in what I'm saying? That she finds me fascinating?* That she doesn't think I'm unattractive? And how hard is it for her to do that "quietly leaning into you as you talk" thing, leading to that "subtlely brushing you with her hand" thing, leading to that "thigh subtley brushing against yours" thing, etc. etc.

And how deluded is it of me to enjoy it, without thinking too much about it?

____________________________________________________
* Again, a lot of this depends on her actually being able to at least feign sharing some interests with me, which pretty much requires her to be a college-educated middle-class person. So for me, personally, this only works in clubs that have those kind of women. Not necessarily the "high end", either: the Baby Doll used to be full of them. And, if it counts, so was the Harmony.

justlooking

04-04-2007, 09:57 AM

I'm also having trouble articulating (or even conceptualizing) an answer to the very good question you pose in your last paragraph.

You're right that, after my second or so conversation with a stripper, I can usually tell whether we're going to eventually end up "dating".

But I'm not talking about that kind of connection. I'm just talking about the usual Stripper Shit* that for some of us is a prime feature of the Strip Club Experience.
_______________________________________
* I wish the ASS-C Glossary were still online.

masquerade

04-04-2007, 11:21 AM

Like, I'd jump in here... but JL has sort of left me with nothing more to add.

What I meant by "fantasy" is exactly what he described... acting flirtatious with someone you probably wouldn't act that way with if you were to meet them outside. I don't think I'm jaded or naive in thinking that this is a big reason why a lot of men visit strip clubs. BTW - I am not referring to the obnoxious, transparently fake behavior that we've discussed in other threads. I'm talking about smiling often, acting interested in what someone is saying, (by laughing at the appropriate moments, making lots of eye contact, and asking follow up questions), and amorous body language that's not initially over-the-top. There are plenty of dancers who do all of this very, very well. JL's point regarding the high-end spots vs. low-end when it comes to this sort of thing is extremely valid.

Axe

04-04-2007, 03:49 PM

Wow. I almost dont know where to begin.

(I don't want to make it seem like this is some constant so-called "high end" v. so-called "low end" war, but it seems to me that one reason for our differing responses is that it must be much harder for strippers to do the "seduction" thing with any plausibility if there's a serious language barrier.)

Harder, but not impossible. Seduction doesnt have to be nor should it always be verbal. Sometimes its ALL body language. I'm not being defensive at all here because I freely admit that I like the language barrier. I find it exotic, attractive, and a big turn on.

I understand that it is part and parcel of what most people do but it doesn't work for me. My antenna is to attuned to dishonest feelings and emotions and I can't ignore the information it gives me.

I can sum up Thorn's view in a few words: He doesnt like playing games and wasting time.

you may be right about the language issue...but really have you ever had to question what was what. you (and most guys) are smarter than that and i'm sure you can see through the BS no matter how convincing it is...i think the number of times you see through the vail far outweigh the number of times that you buy it...if at all.

True, but whats missing here is that when the stripper has the right combo of looks, attitude, sexiness, etc., nobody - me included - gives a shit about the 'veil' anymore. Sure I can see through it, it aint rocket science, but at that point my interests switch to her potential for the kinds of activities we all like to read about on this site. If thats NOT what I'm looking for, then I just ran out of reasons to go to a strip club in the first place.

...people go to these places TO HAVE A GOOD TIME.

Right, right, right!

When a monger forgets this, its time to find another hobby.

masquerade

04-04-2007, 04:20 PM

I'm sort of getting the impression that there's some very different opinions here of what "fantasy" means in this context. What I mean by "fantasy" is not that the stripper is feeding you a bunch of BS, lying to you, or acting in a manner which seems inplausible (without giving it too much thought). Rather, what I'm saying is that this is purely a sales position at heart - and as anyone who has ever worked in retail or marketing can attest to - the job requires a lot of wooing the customer. You kiss their ass, you laugh at their jokes, and you make them feel important and special. Then they buy the same thing from you as they could theoretically just buy from one of your competitors. The difference between a strip club and a store that sells shoes is that at the strip club some people (a lot of people, really) will actually pay for the wooing itself. To them, the wooing is sort of its own product and has a value unto itself. This is what most or all strippers tend to think, and what irritates you guys who couldn't give a shit about anything but the potential extras themselves.

Axe

04-04-2007, 04:47 PM

I'm sort of getting the impression that there's some very different opinions here of what "fantasy" means in this context.

Its a slippery word. Which is precisely why my BS detector goes off when any stripper uses it.

To them, the wooing is sort of its own product and has a value unto itself. This is what most or all strippers tend to think, and what irritates you guys who couldn't give a shit about anything but the potential extras themselves.

It doesnt irritate me and I dont think it bothers the others as much as you think. Its part of the whole package I evaluate when I look for a provider of extracurricular activities, inside the club or out. When an individual cust wants it to stop once he knows extras are or are not offered is where we differ. Some never want it to stop. At its most basic level, its ok - even if its 'stripper shit' because that can be, and often is, entertaining too. But different custs have different tolerance levels for it and I admit mine is not even the same from stripper to stripper. Big surprise, huh? lol

brykster

04-04-2007, 05:13 PM

True, but whats missing here is that when the stripper has the right combo of looks, attitude, sexiness, etc., nobody - me included - gives a shit about the 'veil' anymore. Sure I can see through it, it aint rocket science, but at that point my interests switch to her potential for the kinds of activities we all like to read about on this site. If thats NOT what I'm looking for, then I just ran out of reasons to go to a strip club in the first place.

o.k., i see your point; but if there is no sincerity A) you'll wind up paying more for the extras B) you are more likely to come up with the short end of the stick as far as YMMV C) she's more likely to mislead you (ie. i'm going to give you the best dance of your life = standard grind). that's why if i smell BS, i'm less likely to take a chance. we are here helping M resolve the do's and don't's of relating to her customers, right? well, if she came up to me and her mouth jutted open in surprise and astonishment upon hearing i'm a Yankee fan, i'm not even bothering to stick around to see what's next. more likely i would make some sarcastic comment like "wow, didn't realize i'm the only Yankee fan in the tri-state area" and move on.

that being said, i'm sure i've been tricked before and maybe i'm being a bit hypocritical because like Axe, at times i've put my impressions aside and thought with my dick; but invariably, i regret it for one of the three reasons given above.

also, i should acknowledge as JL pointed out, there is a matter of the degree to which you are being mislead. in the environment of a club, i guess some degree is permissible. i just want to choke the next Dominican dancer who licks my ear and tells me she loves me after meeting me 15 seconds ago.

Axe

04-04-2007, 06:13 PM

that being said, i'm sure i've been tricked before and maybe i'm being a bit hypocritical because like Axe, at times i've put my impressions aside and thought with my dick; but invariably, i regret it for one of the three reasons given above.

I'll bet that, like me, you've been fooled more by faked sincerety (e.g., a good actress) rather than by no sincerety at all. Thats why we dislike the BS past a certain point and why some dont like it at all. Thats why I recoil in horror when I hear the word "fantasy" spoken by a stripper.

i just want to choke the next Dominican dancer who licks my ear and tells me she loves me after meeting me 15 seconds ago.

A clear example of no sincerety at all.

masquerade

04-04-2007, 06:14 PM

o.k., i see your point; but if there is no sincerity A) you'll wind up paying more for the extras B) you are more likely to come up with the short end of the stick as far as YMMV C) she's more likely to mislead you (ie. i'm going to give you the best dance of your life = standard grind). that's why if i smell BS, i'm less likely to take a chance. we are here helping M resolve the do's and don't's of relating to her customers, right? well, if she came up to me and her mouth jutted open in surprise and astonishment upon hearing i'm a Yankee fan, i'm not even bothering to stick around to see what's next. more likely i would make some sarcastic comment like "wow, didn't realize i'm the only Yankee fan in the tri-state area" and move on.

that being said, i'm sure i've been tricked before and maybe i'm being a bit hypocritical because like Axe, at times i've put my impressions aside and thought with my dick; but invariably, i regret it for one of the three reasons given above.

also, i should acknowledge as JL pointed out, there is a matter of the degree to which you are being mislead. in the environment of a club, i guess some degree is permissible. i just want to choke the next Dominican dancer who licks my ear and tells me she loves me after meeting me 15 seconds ago.

I have to completely disagree with you. First of all, the type of thing you mentioned in part C is exactly what I'm NOT talking about when I say "fantasy". (and by the way Axe, I agree it's a terrible term... we should really coin a better phrase here) I'm not in any way advocating lying to a customer about the type or quality of services you're going to provide him with, or making bogus, unverifiable claims about how great your dances are.

Secondly - I don't think it matters whether or not a dancer is a good actress/salesperson when it comes to the quality of the extras she might provide. Why does it automatically mean you're going to get "the short end of the stick" or that she's mislead you somehow? I don't see how the two are related.

donquixote04

04-04-2007, 06:42 PM

I'll bet that, like me, you've been fooled more by faked sincerety (e.g., a good actress) rather than by no sincerety at all. ...

"Sincerity is the key to success. If you can fake that, you've got it made."
-Groucho Marks

franca

04-04-2007, 07:36 PM

Dominican men say shit like that all the time to me. I don't think they intend for you to take is seriously, and it's all meant in fun.

brykster

04-05-2007, 04:03 AM

Dominican men say shit like that all the time to me. I don't think they intend for you to take is seriously, and it's all meant in fun.

fun..HA,HA, HA...fun !?!???

brykster

04-05-2007, 04:26 AM

I have to completely disagree with you. First of all, the type of thing you mentioned in part C is exactly what I'm NOT talking about when I say "fantasy". (and by the way Axe, I agree it's a terrible term... we should really coin a better phrase here) I'm not in any way advocating lying to a customer about the type or quality of services you're going to provide him with, or making bogus, unverifiable claims about how great your dances are.

Secondly - I don't think it matters whether or not a dancer is a good actress/salesperson when it comes to the quality of the extras she might provide. Why does it automatically mean you're going to get "the short end of the stick" or that she's mislead you somehow? I don't see how the two are related.

yes, perhaps you don't mean it that way; but there are plenty of your ilk that do. guys, a show of hands, who has been promised the best dance in the world and believed it, only to get shit?? right now, EVERY guy who uses this board has their hand in the air. this is a generality and does not as apply directly to you (again, as you know, i have no idea who you are, so nothing i say applies directly to you.)

that being said, it is the kind of thinking you possess that fantasy is ok, that can lead to misrepresentation. let's face it, the only reason to feign sincerity is to get money out of a guy. the bottom line is you want to know how things will effect your bottom line...and that's fine. afterall, you are a business person.

as for the second part of your comment, i really can't believe i need to explain it any further...but o.k., here goes: you think a dancer sincerely likes you so you will get more than a standard dance because she'll be really into it. turns out she's not really into it and doesn't like you. you know this because she won't kiss and sits on your lap with her back toward you for the duration of the dance etc., etc. you then realize she was just pretending (for the sole purpose of getting my money under false pretenses), providing a "fantasy" if you will. anyway, you do not get what you expect and you walk away disappointed. idea complete.....

justlooking

04-05-2007, 06:12 AM

also, i should acknowledge as JL pointed out, there is a matter of the degree to which you are being mislead. in the environment of a club, i guess some degree is permissible. i just want to choke the next Dominican dancer who licks my ear and tells me she loves me after meeting me 15 seconds ago.

I think the point isn't permissible v. impermissible. It's intelligent and competent v. stupid and incompetent.

The kind of thing I'm talking about that I say I enjoy is SO not someone licking my ear and telling me she loves me after 15 seconds.

(Edited to add: OK, I see M already said this.)

justlooking

04-05-2007, 06:14 AM

yes, perhaps you don't mean it that way; but there are plenty of your ilk that do. guys, a show of hands, who has been promised the best dance in the world and believed it, only to get shit?? right now, EVERY guy who uses this board has their hand in the air. this is a generality and does not as apply directly to you (again, as you know, i have no idea who you are, so nothing i say applies directly to you.)

that being said, it is the kind of thinking you possess that fantasy is ok, that can lead to misrepresentation. let's face it, the only reason to feign sincerity is to get money out of a guy. the bottom line is you want to know how things will effect your bottom line...and that's fine. afterall, you are a business person.

as for the second part of your comment, i really can't believe i need to explain it any further...but o.k., here goes: you think a dancer sincerely likes you so you will get more than a standard dance because she'll be really into it. turns out she's not really into it and doesn't like you. you know this because she won't kiss and sits on your lap with her back toward you for the duration of the dance etc., etc. you then realize she was just pretending (for the sole purpose of getting my money under false pretenses), providing a "fantasy" if you will. anyway, you do not get what you expect and you walk away disappointed. idea complete.....

I think we're talking about such different stuff that it's not surprising that we're talking past each other.

justlooking

04-05-2007, 06:22 AM

greyfox

04-05-2007, 07:12 AM

Flirting and fantasy can be fun but getting back to the original question,knowledge of the girl having an SO has as much effect on my relationship with her as knowing that Angelina Jolie is Brad's woman has on me enjoying looking at her.I think strippers are misguided if they think that they should lie about their SO.They probably should deflect questions if they don't want to talk about it,joke about it,or use it positively.I know one girl who will tell me how her BF just doesn't know how to to stroke her,and is not as sensual as I am,blah,blah,blah while she strokes my thigh and we're both enjoying the fun.What is fucked up is another girl who bad mouths her BF to some customers because she believes that game of making them think they "have a chance" will keep the revenue stream viable,while all the girls know she's getting married and they blab to the same guys.That leads to dressing room cat fights,regular customers saying "you have have a nice rack,but I hate liars,fuck off" and is counterproductive.The only guy who cared was one who was literally retarded whom she fleeced for all his savings.

Knowledge of her SO doesn't ruin it unless it is despicable "running game" and not playful fantasy.I think most of us can sense the difference between the two.

justlooking

04-05-2007, 08:32 AM

Knowledge of her SO doesn't ruin it unless it is despicable "running game" and not playful fantasy.I think most of us can sense the difference between the two.

I have a lot more to say (when I have time) on the new sub-topic brykster sort of started. I can't wait to get back to it.

But I think there's NO more to say on the original topic than this.

justlooking

04-05-2007, 08:35 AM

(Although one thing that connects the original topic with the new subtopic is the problems that arise when, like M is now, you're a stripper working at a low-mileage club, where the "fantasy" (OK, bad word) becomes perhaps the largest part of what you're selling.)

brykster

04-05-2007, 09:30 AM

I'll write more later, but I think you're ignoring the fact that the "sincerity" that matters in this context is a stripper's "sincerity" in wanting to do a good job. She doesn't need to be "sincere" in liking you. And part of her doing a good job is convincing you that she desires/likes you, even though she doesn't.

oh..well...o.k. we are talking about different things...but which one is M talking about. is providing a "fantasy" doing a good job or is it lying to the individual?

brykster

04-05-2007, 09:32 AM

brykster

04-05-2007, 09:34 AM

justlooking

04-05-2007, 09:38 AM

I'm gonna write something long (and boring) later.

masquerade

04-05-2007, 12:54 PM

as for the second part of your comment, i really can't believe i need to explain it any further...but o.k., here goes: you think a dancer sincerely likes you so you will get more than a standard dance because she'll be really into it. turns out she's not really into it and doesn't like you. you know this because she won't kiss and sits on your lap with her back toward you for the duration of the dance etc., etc. you then realize she was just pretending (for the sole purpose of getting my money under false pretenses), providing a "fantasy" if you will. anyway, you do not get what you expect and you walk away disappointed. idea complete.....

but that's not what I'm talking about either. No dancer worth her salt should be satisfied getting a guy to commit to a dance and then immediately turning off whatever charm she initially used to get him to the lap dance area. Where is the business sense in that? He's going to dissapointed and annoyed and then leave when the song's over.

A really good dancer seamlessly integrates her sales pitch, as it were, into the product (dance) without you even noticing. Getting the guy to the lap dance area is only half the battle. If I were to sell single dances with different guys all night long I'd be making a lot less money than I actually do. The last thing I want is for a customer to leave after the first song feeling like he gotted gyped. I want him to be like, "wow.. this is even better than I expected. I am completely under her spell right now. I am not leaving this chair until my wallet is empty because I am having so much fun that I want to prolong the experience as much as possible." Good dancers do this all the time. It has nothing to do with lying to people.

justlooking

04-05-2007, 01:24 PM

Right right of course.

But you can see how this would be less true of "high mileage" grind dances that you get at mileage mills.

I think that in this sense, we're talking about different products/experiences here.

justlooking

04-05-2007, 01:26 PM

(And just to be clear, I'm NOT trying to claim that the lower-mileage dances are "better." Far from it. Just that the whole thing is different.)

justlooking

04-05-2007, 01:27 PM

(Which is why, BTW, I'm going to claim in this long post I keep threatening to write that when the "high-end" girls go VHM, you almost NEVER get the kind of "mechanical" extras that brykster is complaining about. Because, sort of as an artifact of the way they do their "usual" stuff, they just don't operate that way.)

brykster

04-05-2007, 02:21 PM

A really good dancer seamlessly integrates her sales pitch, as it were, into the product (dance) without you even noticing. Getting the guy to the lap dance area is only half the battle. If I were to sell single dances with different guys all night long I'd be making a lot less money than I actually do. The last thing I want is for a customer to leave after the first song feeling like he gotted gyped. I want him to be like, "wow.. this is even better than I expected. I am completely under her spell right now. I am not leaving this chair until my wallet is empty because I am having so much fun that I want to prolong the experience as much as possible." Good dancers do this all the time. It has nothing to do with lying to people.

still, no matter how you put it, you are asking me to nod my head and, "o.k., i give you license to lie to me for the purposes of sucking every dollar from my pocket; because i think you actually give a fuck about me" and i'm not going to say that. if other guys would rather hear fantasy than truth, good for them. me, i prefer honesty. obviously, your policy in favor of being less than honest has not hurt your bottom line...or at least not to the extent that you have found it an issue, so please continue. it's your prerogative. just be aware that we are not all as stupid as you think we are.

brykster

04-05-2007, 02:31 PM

I am not leaving this chair until my wallet is empty because I am having so much fun that I want to prolong the experience as much as possible."

this is hardly ever the thought. be aware that you are leading the guy on. 9 times out 10 he is sticking around because he thinks you are interested. this whole thread began because you want us to say that it is o.k. to mislead the guy when he asks if you have an SO...well if you are so sure that the guy empties his wallet because he can't bear to part with the pleasure he is experiencing, then tell him the truth. tell him you've got a guy and he has no chance. how much do ya wanna bet that it'll be the last song you do for the guy? call it what you want, not telling the truth or being completely frank is lying...bottom line.

however, if you are honest from the start, the guy will respect you and will know where things stand. this guy will truly empty his wallet for the right reasons; because the ambiguity has been removed.

justlooking

04-05-2007, 03:18 PM

This is funny. Read the thread on this board called something like "Can I have your phone number?"

What's funny is that I think what we're talking about now is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

The reason why is that long post I keep not writing.

justlooking

04-05-2007, 03:19 PM

Although let me say this: you seem to think guys are really fragile and gullible, brykster.

justlooking

04-05-2007, 03:24 PM

justlooking

04-05-2007, 03:26 PM

When I buy a suit, the salesperson always complements me on my selection.

Would you prefer him to say, "Frankly, I think that suit sucks?"

justlooking

04-05-2007, 03:27 PM

ME: Blah blah blah blah blah.

STRIPPER: You're boring.

ME: I want a second opinion.

STRIPPER: You're fat.

justlooking

04-05-2007, 03:31 PM

brykster

04-05-2007, 03:43 PM

While I'm sitting here failing to write that long post, let me say one more thing: if a stripper sat down with me and the first thing she said, out of nowhere, was "you have no chance with me", (a) I'd be really offended (who the fuck does she think she is assuming I care if I have a chance with her? I don't even know her) and (b) the chances that I would buy a dance from her would be about zero.

well, of course; but if you ask, wouldn't you want the truth? a guy who wants a fantasy experience or is not thinking that something more can materialize, will simply refrain from asking. don't you think?

brykster

04-05-2007, 03:47 PM

When I buy a suit, the salesperson always complements me on my selection.

Would you prefer him to say, "Frankly, I think that suit sucks?"

well, no...but perhaps with more tact, i would like to know if my suit looks ridiculous...wouldn't you?

not only that; but wouldn't you have more respect and be more likely to give your business to a haberdasher who gives you an honest opinion at the risk of losing your sale as opposed to one who will say anything to secure the sale?

justlooking

04-05-2007, 03:47 PM

Good point on that one.

Axe

04-05-2007, 03:50 PM

this is hardly ever the thought. be aware that you are leading the guy on.

Sooner or later this topic HAD to come back because it really is a strippers bread and butter in low/no-mileage clubs. There's no way to get around it, M.

I can make a case for three kinds of guys who go to strip clubs:

[1] Total newbie. He knows he's gonna be lied to, but he is naive and can be easily misguided by "fantasy" talk/behavoir into thinking its reality.

[2] Ocassional visitor. Similar to Type 1, but just isnt the kind of guy who will EVER be a steady customer at any kind of strip club.

[3] Veteran. Knows what he's in for and also knows how to get what he wants and avoid what he doesnt.

As I see it, Types 1 and 2 are perfect targets for the 'fantasy' concept you seem to be advocating. I dont think your definition of it changes anything.

Get a Type 1 to think he's eventually gonna score with you and it can drag on for MONTHS before he realizes he's wasting his money.

Get a Type 2 and, even though he will never be a steady customer, you will still MAXIMIZE your income from him for the short time you deal with him.

I dare say only a SMALL portion of Types 1 and 2 will see your 'fantasy' concept for what it is, enjoy it for what it is, have no expectations for things to progress further (dating and/or "dating" and/or extras), and go home with a smile on their face never to return again until they are once again randomly struck by a whimsical need to have another "fantasy" experience.

Type 3's are also good target but are more a matter of how much VHM you want to do with them, if at all. Again, your need to maximize income drives how much you deal with them. The 'fantasy' stuff can get in the way, not matter, or help, depending on the individual Type 3 you happen to be working with.

The reality is that the 'fantasy' method works really well for Types 1 and 2, and it doesnt matter too much for Type 3.

So, yeah, go with the 'fantasy' thing. You'll make more money.

Until the day comes when a cust loses his composure with you (to put it mildly) because he is 110% certain you led him on.

Then you have to hope the bouncer gets to him before he gets to you.

brykster

04-05-2007, 03:50 PM

When I go to a strip club, I am paying for women to act like they find me desirable. I mean, that's what I'm paying for. Why do think they're somehow leading me on dishonestly? It's like, what I'm there for.

you've never had deeper feelings about a provider and wanted more than sex? perhaps not. i believe you did say you are married. again, if you are not looking for anything more, you probably won't ask about an SO...unless you are just making conversation in which case, you shouldn't care about the response anyway; but my opinion is if you care enough to ask, you should get a true response. with regard to you rather comical scenario, i wouldn't ever ask a dancer if she finds me physically attractive and i assure you, no one finds me boring : )

justlooking

04-05-2007, 03:50 PM

well, of course; but if you ask, wouldn't you want the truth? a guy who wants a fantasy experience or is not thinking that something more can materialize, will simply refrain from asking. don't you think?

I didn't think we were talking about lying about not having a boyfriend anymore. I thought we had kind of settled that, and had moved on to talk about other things. At least, I've been talking about other things. But I thought you were, too. Weren't you?

justlooking

04-05-2007, 03:52 PM

Sooner or later this topic HAD to come back because it really is a strippers bread and butter in low/no-mileage clubs. There's no way to get around it, M.

I can make a case for three kinds of guys who go to strip clubs:

[1] Total newbie. He knows he's gonna be lied to, but he is naive and can be easily misguided by "fantasy" talk/behavoir into thinking its reality.

[2] Ocassional visitor. Similar to Type 1, but just isnt the kind of guy who will EVER be a steady customer at any kind of strip club.

[3] Veteran. Knows what he's in for and also knows how to get what he wants and avoid what he doesnt.

As I see it, Types 1 and 2 are perfect targets for the 'fantasy' concept you seem to be advocating. I dont think your definition of it changes anything.

Get a Type 1 to think he's eventually gonna score with you and it can drag on for MONTHS before he realizes he's wasting his money.

Get a Type 2 and, even though he will never be a steady customer, you will still MAXIMIZE your income from him for the short time you deal with him.

I dare say only a SMALL portion of Types 1 and 2 will see your 'fantasy' concept for what it is, enjoy it for what it is, have no expectations for things to progress further (dating and/or "dating" and/or extras), and go home with a smile on their face never to return again until they are once again randomly struck by a whimsical need to have another "fantasy" experience.

Type 3's are also good target but are more a matter of how much VHM you want to do with them, if at all. Again, your need to maximize income drives how much you deal with them. The 'fantasy' stuff can get in the way, not matter, or help, depending on the individual Type 3 you happen to be working with.

The reality is that the 'fantasy' method works really well for Types 1 and 2, and it doesnt matter too much for Type 3.

So, yeah, go with the 'fantasy' thing. You'll make more money.

Until the day comes when a cust loses his composure with you (to put it mildly) because he is 110% certain you led him on.

Then you have to hope the bouncer gets to him before he gets to you.

This thread is getting eerily familiar again.

Axe

04-05-2007, 03:54 PM

justlooking

04-05-2007, 03:56 PM

I thought we were now talking about stuff like this:

How hard is it for some girl to make like she's interested in what I'm saying? That she finds me fascinating? That she doesn't think I'm unattractive? And how hard is it for her to do that "quietly leaning into you as you talk" thing, leading to that "subtlely brushing you with her hand" thing, leading to that "thigh subtley brushing against yours" thing, etc. etc.

And how deluded is it of me to enjoy it, without thinking too much about it?

brykster

04-05-2007, 03:57 PM

Until the day comes when a cust loses his composure with you (to put it mildly) because he is 110% certain you led him on.

ding, ding. is it worth the money? i saw this go down about a year ago at the Blue Goose (i posted the story if anyone wants to look for it). anyways, it was not pretty and the dancer was petrified to leave. BTW, they have no bouncer.

justlooking

04-05-2007, 03:57 PM

Or this:

well, sort of. I agree that it is a business/client relationship and that honesty in the exchange of services and money is very important, but I really think that at least a portion of a stripper or prostitute's "services" are the elements of fantasy she provides. I mean, if it were all just straightforward services, (hj, bj, full service) then what would happen if she didn't like you? Isn't part of her job to pretend she digs you even if she thinks you're the most vile person in the universe? You don't feel like that's partly what a lot of people are paying for? (I'm not saying it's what YOU have to necessarily pay for - but I know for a fact that a lot of guys do.)

justlooking

04-05-2007, 03:58 PM

Or this:

Like, I'd jump in here... but JL has sort of left me with nothing more to add.

What I meant by "fantasy" is exactly what he described... acting flirtatious with someone you probably wouldn't act that way with if you were to meet them outside. I don't think I'm jaded or naive in thinking that this is a big reason why a lot of men visit strip clubs. BTW - I am not referring to the obnoxious, transparently fake behavior that we've discussed in other threads. I'm talking about smiling often, acting interested in what someone is saying, (by laughing at the appropriate moments, making lots of eye contact, and asking follow up questions), and amorous body language that's not initially over-the-top. There are plenty of dancers who do all of this very, very well. JL's point regarding the high-end spots vs. low-end when it comes to this sort of thing is extremely valid.

brykster

04-05-2007, 03:59 PM

I didn't think we were talking about lying about not having a boyfriend anymore. I thought we had kind of settled that, and had moved on to talk about other things. At least, I've been talking about other things. But I thought you were, too. Weren't you?

i have no idea what the fuck i'm talking about : )

seriously, yes. i am still talking about the SO thing; but it could as well be any other instance of being mislead.

justlooking

04-05-2007, 04:01 PM

I think we're probably all in agreement, then.

Unless you think that just acting flirtatiously is "misleading".

brykster

04-05-2007, 04:02 PM

i have no idea what the fuck i'm talking about : )

seriously, yes. i am still talking about the SO thing; but it could as well be any other instance of being mislead.

did we resolve the SO issue? what was the final determination on that one?

justlooking

04-05-2007, 04:02 PM

(I only put that "unless" sentence in because it would really be too boring if we all ended up agreeing with each other.)

justlooking

04-05-2007, 04:03 PM

did we resolve the SO issue? what was the final determination on that one?

M said she went to work, and she told everyone who asked that she had an SO, and it was great.

justlooking

04-05-2007, 04:04 PM

Here:

So, to update:

I went to work tonight and decided to directly address the bf question and answer honestly when it was posed to me. Noone cared. Like, at all. It was totally fine. In fact, it was great - because by not dodging the question I didn't have to deal with anyone asking me out and it then being even more awkward because I'd have to reject them. It made things so much easier.

brykster

04-05-2007, 04:04 PM

I think we're probably all in agreement, then.

Unless you think that just acting flirtatiously is "misleading".

no, that's o.k. but i would avoid saying things that are untrue...especially things that are obviously untrue...like...i'm boring for instance.

justlooking

04-05-2007, 04:05 PM

Yeah, but partially that's just incompetence. I mean, sometimes stupid incompetent strippers say complimentary things to me that are so patently untrue that I just spontaneously laugh at them.

brykster

04-05-2007, 04:06 PM

M said she went to work, and she told everyone who asked that she had an SO, and it was great.

ohhh...totally missed this one. gee, is my face red? good for you, M.

franca

04-05-2007, 04:07 PM

fun..HA,HA, HA...fun !?!???

What, are those Dominican women torturing you or something?

brykster

04-05-2007, 04:09 PM

Yeah, but partially that's just incompetence. I mean, sometimes stupid incompetent strippers say complimentary things to me that are so patently untrue that I just spontaneously laugh at them.

yes, i've experienced this and it pisses me off. of course, i'd have no idea to what extent i've experienced the possibility: fantasy as opposed to sincere interest...and on second thought, perhaps these are not so mutually exclusive.

justlooking

04-05-2007, 04:12 PM

brykster

04-05-2007, 04:13 PM

What, are those Dominican women torturing you or something?

no, not torturing me but i do find it aggravating that they could think i'd buy crap. i mean, does anyone buy it? i've gotta say, in the interests of sounding like a racist, i've found no other nationality of dancer more willing to mislead and lie...not even the oft maligned Russians.

brykster

04-05-2007, 04:17 PM

I guess the answer to your question a few posts ago -- which for some reason also seems to me to be responsive to your post directly above -- is that, yeah, I look for "more". But I get it frequently enough that it doesn't bother me much when I don't get it.

whelp, good for you (no sarcasm intended). some of us don't share your success (probably because we are unwilling to throw around your kind of money) or at least in my case, it sounds like i don't put myself out there nearly as much as you do. as i've stated previously, i'm not really looking for takeout and generally don't ask for numbers.

brykster

04-05-2007, 04:19 PM

in the interests of sounding like a racist,

sorry, i've now revealed myself to be a complete moron. i meant "at the risk of sounding like a racist"

masquerade

04-05-2007, 04:30 PM

I think we're probably all in agreement, then.

Unless you think that just acting flirtatiously is "misleading".

And I feel like that's what Axe and Brykster are inferring, at least in part. So no, I don't think anyone's in agreement on this issue. I've only had customers get pissed off at me for leading them on a couple times, and both instances were a long time ago when I still relatively new to high-end clubs. I no longer behave in ways that cause that to happen anymore; I'm not talking about that kind of behavior in this thread and I know JL isn't either.

And yes, I was over the SO question that spurred this thread about two days ago. onward, march!!!

Axe

04-05-2007, 04:30 PM

There is plenty of overlap between what you quoted and what I'm identifying, JL. The things you mention are the ambiance or the attitude that everyone enjoys in a club.

The problem is, it is ALSO the first step in seducing those Type 1s and 2s I mentioned. Yes, everyone likes it, but many men (cough, LOTS of Type 1s and 2s, cough) can not see it for what it is, enjoy it, and move on. Men are not frail creatures, but one of their first instincts with women is to almost instantly lose sight of reality when an attractive woman flatters them in a way that isnt obviously bullshit. Thats what I mean by fake sincerity. That problem is multiplied by a thousand when the man is young. Thats why M has so much trouble with the younger custs.

Veterans can see all that stuff for what it is. Many others cant and dont. This is something all strippers are aware of in every fiber of their naked little bodies, and you bet your ass they take advantage of it. I'm saying thats ok to a point. The problem then is that strippers will let their need for money as well as their female pride in their ability to seduce men make them blind to problem custs until its too late.

Axe

04-05-2007, 04:42 PM

And I feel like that's what Axe and Brykster are inferring, at least in part.

I wasnt. I hope my last post made that clear, but if it didnt I will say that flirtatious behavior, flattery, etc. is ok. So, we agree.

But, like anything else, it should have its limits depending on circumstances.

franca

04-05-2007, 04:43 PM

no, not torturing me but i do find it aggravating that they could think i'd buy crap. i mean, does anyone buy it? i've gotta say, in the interests of sounding like a racist, i've found no other nationality of dancer more willing to mislead and lie...not even the oft maligned Russians.

That was kinda my point--that I don't think they intend for you to truly believe crap like that. It's just flirting. Of course, I'm only speaking from my experience with Dominican men. I don't hear stuff like that from Dominican women, strippers or otherwise.

Axe

04-05-2007, 04:49 PM

sorry, i've now revealed myself to be a complete moron. i meant "at the risk of sounding like a racist"

Yeah, sure, brykster, you're a racist. LOL (of course, you're NOT)

You and the other custs going to P-town and the like are probably single-handedly responsible for keeping a significant segment of the new American population gainfully employed. LOL

brykster

04-05-2007, 05:45 PM

Yeah, sure, brykster, you're a racist. LOL (of course, you're NOT)

You and the other custs going to P-town and the like are probably single-handedly responsible for keeping a significant segment of the new American population gainfully employed. LOL

true...but i gotta say it is the least of my motivations.

brykster

04-05-2007, 05:48 PM

That was kinda my point--that I don't think they intend for you to truly believe crap like that. It's just flirting. Of course, I'm only speaking from my experience with Dominican men. I don't hear stuff like that from Dominican women, strippers or otherwise.

no...they do expect you to believe. in fact, i've experienced them becoming angered when you blow it off. clearly, their motivation is to have you believe them to get as much of your money as possible. unless you are part of that world, you can't understand. i mean, they walk around the clubs begging, just like you were in Port Authority. it's really disgusting; but that's what i get for saving myself 850 bucks.

franca

04-05-2007, 07:57 PM

Wow. I just giggle at the Dominican men, and they smile right back. Nobody on either side of the equasion seems to expect anything, except maybe they expect their silly little charms to convince me to sleep with them.

brykster

04-06-2007, 01:01 AM

masquerade

04-06-2007, 01:41 AM

I'm wondering what happened to that long and boring post that JL was promising yesterday.

brykster

04-06-2007, 11:51 AM

I'm wondering what happened to that long and boring post that JL was promising yesterday.

i believe it was to rebut something i had said; but since we now agree on several points, perhaps the post is unnecessary. i'm only assuming here... JL???

justlooking

04-06-2007, 12:08 PM

Too tied up to think.

masquerade

04-06-2007, 12:13 PM

Sorry to hear that.

brykster

04-06-2007, 04:07 PM

Sorry to hear that.

me too....wait, JL you have to work??

Thorn

04-06-2007, 06:23 PM

Thorn, sometimes I think you forget that people go to these places TO HAVE A GOOD TIME.

I know.

It is just that I have come to believe that a good anchor is as worthwhile to have on a trip across these seas as a good sail.

Thorn

04-06-2007, 06:27 PM

I don't know exactly how to say this, but I think you (and Thorn) are making this out to be something more than it is.

How hard is it for some girl to make like she's interested in what I'm saying?

I think what it is, is that you are personalizing this.

I know youcan enjoy a excursion into fantasy and pull back into reality.

I am speaking in generalities and you have to admit that there are a lot of people, on both sides of the equation, that when the line between reality and fantasy gets fuzzy start to do some very peculiar things.

We have both been around too long not to have seen, and heard of, multiple examples of this very thing.

Thorn

04-06-2007, 06:37 PM

What I meant by "fantasy" is exactly what he described... acting flirtatious with someone you probably wouldn't act that way with if you were to meet them outside.

I think JL's position on this would be enhanced by having worked as a bouncer or other positions that deal with the after math of this having all gone wrong.

I don't think I'm jaded or naive in thinking that this is a big reason why a lot of men visit strip clubs.

Sure it is, but all I am pointing out is that there is an element of damaged people, on both sides, who are attracted to the 'fantasy' but don't process it or handle it the same way people who are more centered and better grounded do.

I would point out to you, as I did to JL, that you have been around in this biz long enough to know precisely what I am talking about.

So all I am advocating is being well grounded in reality, which allows you to partake in a little fantasy now and than without getting caught up in the drama creating issues that occur when the lines get too fuzzy.

Toreador

04-06-2007, 06:46 PM

I think JL's position on this would be enhanced by having worked as a bouncer or other positions that deal with the after math of this having all gone wrong.

Sure it is, but all I am pointing out is that there is an element of damaged people, on both sides, who are attracted to the 'fantasy' but don't process it or handle it the same way people who are more centered and better grounded do.

I would point out to you, as I did to JL, that you have been around in this biz long enough to know precisely what I am talking about.

So all I am advocating is being well grounded in reality, which allows you to partake in a little fantasy now and than without getting caught up in the drama creating issues that occur when the lines get too fuzzy.

WTF? Excuse me while I consult Freud what this jibberish means. ------------- Oh Oh; he doesn't know either.

Thorn

04-06-2007, 06:59 PM

I can sum up Thorn's view in a few words: He doesnt like playing games and wasting time.

True. Even less I like to be manipulated.

The, "I'm pure sex, Baby. Get a VIP dance and I'll show you.", come on is an attempt to sell vaporware. The box it comes in looks pretty but there is nothing inside.

Those that practice that type of "wanna dance" on me get a very cold shoulder.

Someone like Masquerade, who I gather isn't selling anything she isn't prepared to deliver, even if that is only 'fantasy', who provides an entertaining presence and good company may find me purchasing a couple of dances just to show my appreciation of a good entertainer. I'd consider it no different than paying the purchase price for a good show.

Example of the difference: "Wanna dance" hyping her sales pitches with promises she'll never keep: Three card monty huckster on the sidewalk. Walk on by.

Dancer who has something interesting to say, or makes me smile, or spends some quality time that peaks my mental or other natural interests in an honest way: Theatre experience where you understand upfront there is a price for general admission.

Thorn

04-06-2007, 07:06 PM

Rather, what I'm saying is that this is purely a sales position at heart - and as anyone who has ever worked in retail or marketing can attest to - the job requires a lot of wooing the customer. You kiss their ass, you laugh at their jokes, and you make them feel important and special.

But as was said earlier, and I can tell you from having worked in sales, if that takes place in a disingenuous manner than all that happens is the customer becomes insulted.

Some experienced customers, being well acquainted with the sales pitches involve, have become incredibly jaded and distrusting. While other, even more experienced customers, while not jaded and distrusting can spot the real McCoy from a huckster before they have finished their first sentence.

You know, as well as I do, that there are a lot of fakers in this biz. Fakers are not the same as entertainers. I'll pay for good entertainment, in what ever form that may take [including extras when it goes that way]. I won't pay to be sold a pig in a poke.

[I think I finally got that out in a way that covers it succinctly... I hope]

Thorn

04-06-2007, 07:20 PM

I want him to be like, "wow.. this is even better than I expected. I am completely under her spell right now. I am not leaving this chair until my wallet is empty because I am having so much fun that I want to prolong the experience as much as possible." Good dancers do this all the time. It has nothing to do with lying to people.

Agreed.

I do see a problem for 'fantasy' LD dancers in dealing with experienced strip-club customers.

This is because some aspects of getting LD's are a bit like using a drug. You become conditioned to a certain level and need ever increasing doses to get your high.

Someone like myself would truly need the dancer to push the limits of sensuality, in place of out right sexuality, to get me all hot and bothered and wanting more.

Other wise it is just: Been there. Done this. I think I want to finish my beer now.

Most guys who are looking for extras, who didn't start out as mongers, are probably guys who started out getting all buzzed by sensual dances provided by "clean" dancers who simply find that after a certain period of exposure it just isn't good enough for them any more.

[I know that sounds awful, but I'm just being honest.]

Thorn

04-06-2007, 07:21 PM

Thorn

04-06-2007, 07:25 PM

Although let me say this: you seem to think guys are really fragile and gullible, brykster.

Not fragile... but gullible...

When the blood runs south and guys start thinking with their penis, we are some of the most gullible creatures on earth.

Come on, you've read "stripper-web". One of the things that causes dancers to loose respect for their clients ["custies"] is precisely how gullible we become as soon as our dicks get hard. They marvel at how easily we are manipulated.

My whole point in the earlier comments posted above is that while it is OK to get a boner, remember to keep the majority of your blood supply above your neck, because when you don't that is when you can get into trouble.

Same for dancers.

Thorn

04-06-2007, 07:30 PM

When I go to a strip club, I am paying for women to act like they find me desirable. I mean, that's what I'm paying for. Why do think they're somehow leading me on dishonestly? It's like, what I'm there for.

That is where we differ.

When I go to a strip-club I go to be entertained.

There are many ways a dancer can entertain me. Fantasy can be entertaining, but when it crosses a line and becomes leading me on, or pretending to like me if she doesn't or is ambiguous on the issue, that isn't fantasy any more. That is the aforementioned pig in a poke.

Thorn

04-06-2007, 07:48 PM

WTF? Excuse me while I consult Freud what this jibberish means. ------------- Oh Oh; he doesn't know either.

I don't?

Do you know how many times I have been asked by dancers, when I worked as a bouncer in these clubs, to either drive or followed them home because someone with reality issues had crossed a line and become a stalker?

Do you know how many guys I have seen empty their wallets on pay day knowing that when they went home they had to explain to the wife that they didn't have this weeks pay?

Do you know how many times I had to deal with angry wives who came to the club to express displeasure with the dancers for interacting with their husbands in such a manner?

These are the exceptions to the rule, but they exist in numbers big enough that everyone who has worked in the industry for more than a little while has observed what I am speaking about.

AND while these are the extremes there are many, many, many more individuals who don't cross these lines but get tangled to lesser extents in them.

All I am advocating is the use of common sense, and that may sound like something that shouldn't have to get said but there are plenty of people who work and purchase in this industry who check their common sense at the door of the club along with their sense of reality [and I am stating frequently the two are inter-related].

Don't know what I am talking about...

buddy, get a clue!

Thorn

04-06-2007, 07:58 PM

My whole point in the earlier comments posted above is that while it is OK to get a boner, remember to keep the majority of your blood supply above your neck, because when you don't that is when you can get into trouble.

P.S.: I know that as much as you talk purchasing into and wanting the fantasy, you never loose site of reality.

Which is why I think you are having a problem relating to what some of us are writing, because we aren't talking about you. We are speaking of strip-club patrons in general and, more specifically, that percentage of which we note falling off the edge of the reality table.

masquerade

04-06-2007, 08:18 PM

P.S.: I know that as much as you talk purchasing into and wanting the fantasy, you never loose site of reality.

Which is why I think you are having a problem relating to what some of us are writing, because we aren't talking about you. We are speaking of strip-club patrons in general and, more specifically, that percentage of which we note falling off the edge of the reality table.

Just to be clear.... are you saying that it's partly the dancer's responsibility to make sure that her customers aren't losing their grip on reality? Because I think that's kind of ridiculous. Sure, I think it's her responsibility not to intentionally mislead guys into thinking the whole strip club scene is anything more than what it is, but if she's already taking those precautions, then I think it's pretty silly to expect anything more. What is she supposed to do? Monitor them like a parole officer to make sure they aren't getting too caught up in the whole thing? I don't think that's her job - she's a stripper, not a psychiatrist.

Thorn

04-06-2007, 08:42 PM

Just to be clear.... are you saying that it's partly the dancer's responsibility to make sure that her customers aren't losing their grip on reality?

Not at all.

I think it is every person's individual responsibility to watch out for their own psyche, and to be every vigilant for those who aren't being responsible as to how it may impact themselves.

Insight on. Radar on. Antenna set to high gain. :) That is how I travel through strip-clubs and come out the other end none the worse for wear.

Axe

04-06-2007, 09:24 PM

I think we have drifted back to where we were yesterday before JL brought us back in line.

Just to be clear.... are you saying that it's partly the dancer's responsibility to make sure that her customers aren't losing their grip on reality? Because I think that's kind of ridiculous.

It isnt, for quite a few reasons. The stripper's personal safety being the first among them.

Sure, I think it's her responsibility not to intentionally mislead guys into thinking the whole strip club scene is anything more than what it is, but if she's already taking those precautions, then I think it's pretty silly to expect anything more.

This is a VERY fine line to balance on and is easily overwhelmed, overcome, and ultimately completely forgotten by the strippers' need to make money. I've seen it happen so many times, I cant count them. And, I know you have too.

Maybe JL has something to add to what we were talking about yesterday, but if not then this thread is probably getting into cust-stripper subtleties that are so personal they apply to almost nobody.

brykster

04-06-2007, 10:23 PM

I don't?

Do you know how many times I have been asked by dancers, when I worked as a bouncer in these clubs, to either drive or followed them home because someone with reality issues had crossed a line and become a stalker?

Do you know how many guys I have seen empty their wallets on pay day knowing that when they went home they had to explain to the wife that they didn't have this weeks pay?

Do you know how many times I had to deal with angry wives who came to the club to express displeasure with the dancers for interacting with their husbands in such a manner?

These are the exceptions to the rule, but they exist in numbers big enough that everyone who has worked in the industry for more than a little while has observed what I am speaking about.

AND while these are the extremes there are many, many, many more individuals who don't cross these lines but get tangled to lesser extents in them.

All I am advocating is the use of common sense, and that may sound like something that shouldn't have to get said but there are plenty of people who work and purchase in this industry who check their common sense at the door of the club along with their sense of reality [and I am stating frequently the two are inter-related].

Don't know what I am talking about...

buddy, get a clue!

hmm...this is a very interesting inside look. no one has discussed the addictive aspect of the hobby in this thread...but i'm not sure flirting is the cause of it. i think a guy inclined to empty his wallet on payday has other more pressing issues then being gullible. that being said, on a smaller scale, we've all experienced buyer's remorse and done things in the heat of passion that we shouldn't have...and the provider never offers a voice of reason. "dude, you've gotten ten dances. maybe it's time to stop." you will never hear this. i think providers are perfectly happy with the lives they've wrecked. it's pretty reckless. at least a bartender has the good sense to cut someone off when he recognizes a problem. i know dancers are under no obligation to do anything like this; but sometimes you think they lack human qualities. when a guy tells you he's got two kids at home and works as an assistant manager at a supermarket and has bought 200 dollars in dances, compassion and humanity would dictate doing the right thing. i'm cynical...i just got a shitty dance at Hideaway in Ct. tipped for a dance that clearly deserved none.

brykster

04-06-2007, 10:32 PM

Just to be clear.... are you saying that it's partly the dancer's responsibility to make sure that her customers aren't losing their grip on reality?

i sure as fuck am. it's only human.

What is she supposed to do? Monitor them like a parole officer to make sure they aren't getting too caught up in the whole thing? I don't think that's her job - she's a stripper, not a psychiatrist.

noooo, of course not. callously ruin his fucking life. i guess you would say if a guy accidentally hands a clerk a 100 dollar bill instead of a single. the clerk should keep their mouth shut and capitalize on the error. get ahead at all costs. it doesn't matter who gets hurt, right? sure, it's a valid point of view; but i think it makes someone a pretty crappy human being.

Thorn

04-07-2007, 10:34 AM

Sure, I think it's her responsibility not to intentionally mislead guys into thinking the whole strip club scene is anything more than what it is...

I think this can be a problem, as the strip-club scene isn't one scene, it is many scenes. So how does a dancer not mislead if she doesn't provide at least a strong hint as to what her personal boundaries are.

On a side note: This is why I think all the "clean" dancers owe the "dirty" dancers a debt of thanks. It is what those dirty gals do that cause the customers to presume they can get more than the innuendo that many so called "clean" dancers use to get 'custies' into the VIP room. If the customers didn't believe extras were available, because they are so often available, they'd be less inclined to purchase into the illusion of availability being sold by dancers less inclined to actually provide them.

Thorn

04-07-2007, 10:39 AM

Not at all.

I think it is every person's individual responsibility to watch out for their own psyche, and to be every vigilant for those who aren't being responsible as to how it may impact themselves.

Insight on. Radar on. Antenna set to high gain. :) That is how I travel through strip-clubs and come out the other end none the worse for wear.

I realized this is way too flowery and needs to be rephrased.

Every person needs to watch out for their own behind, and take care to limit interaction with others who obviously aren't looking out for theirs.

I keep my wits about me when in strip-clubs and because I do I can enjoy myself because I know I can have as good time as I want and not suffer any negative consequences.

Thorn

04-07-2007, 10:58 AM

hmm...this is a very interesting inside look. no one has discussed the addictive aspect of the hobby in this thread...but i'm not sure flirting is the cause of it. i think a guy inclined to empty his wallet on payday has other more pressing issues then being gullible.

Could very well be that there are other issues that are causing the guy or the gal to be 'gullible'. Perhaps self-esteem issues. Perhaps depression. I can imagine any number of reasons as the cause, but I was addressing the effect. So all that matters to the statement I am trying to make is that it is truthful that it happens.

What goes on in strip-clubs isn't, by itself, a bad thing. It is that it is more prone to be misunderstood or misused by damaged people with strange, or inconsistent with the proper use, expectations. Like a lot of things, drinking or smoking pot as a couple of examples, a little recreational use isn't necessarily a bad thing. Like those things though when misused in an attempt to correct for other problems [greed, loneliness, depression, lack of self-esteem, etc, etc, etc], big trouble is probably just around the corner.

that being said, on a smaller scale, we've all experienced buyer's remorse and done things in the heat of passion that we shouldn't have...

The not stepping over, but tangle in, the lines I mentioned above.

We've all done that. Most people aren't insightful enough to learn from other people's mistakes. We have to have a little mishaps ourselves to figure things out. I know I have had one or two myself.

...and the provider never offers a voice of reason. "dude, you've gotten ten dances. maybe it's time to stop." you will never hear this. i think providers are perfectly happy with the lives they've wrecked. it's pretty reckless. at least a bartender has the good sense to cut someone off when he recognizes a problem.

There is a reason for this. Bartenders, and the clubs the bartenders are agents for, have criminal and civil liabilities for not watching after someone who is not watching out for themselves.

There are no such criminal or civil liabilities attached to the actions of dancers, who are selling a product that can be, to some, as intoxicating as alcohol [and just as likely to cause the head to swim and the person to toss away rational thinking].

i know dancers are under no obligation to do anything like this; but sometimes you think they lack human qualities. when a guy tells you he's got two kids at home and works as an assistant manager at a supermarket and has bought 200 dollars in dances, compassion and humanity would dictate doing the right thing.

To be fair I know dancers who do precisely this.

When faced with a guy who they know can't afford to be purchasing 10 dances at $20 per they will tell them how sweet they think he is to show this level of interest, and give them a sweet peck on the cheek and send them out of the LD room at 3 dances, asking him to come back next pay day when he can afford three more. More frequently than not, they do just that. And if they run off and get seven more dances from another dancer anyway, they sleep better knowing they did the right thing.

At least, that is what they tell me.

Not everyone is a killer, or possesses a killer's instincts. :)

Thorn

04-07-2007, 11:02 AM

And again, I am not stating this is an issue solely dancer to customer.

I know of many customers who use dancers' weaknesses to play them. I know of more than a few 'custies' who will actually look for dancers who are the mercenary type and dangle a big pay day in front of them, and use their own greed to take advantage of them.

And many useless boyfriends and S.O.'s [some of them other dancers], who play on some dancers self-esteem issues to get and keep an upper-hand in their relationships with them.

I don't think that is OK either.

Thorn

04-07-2007, 11:07 AM

sorry for the multiple posts...

As you can probably tell, I have some strong feelings on this topic. :)

justlooking

04-07-2007, 11:12 AM

I agree that it's a stripper's responsibility to make sure her customers aren't losing their grip on reality.

Maybe "make sure" is too strong. But it's sure her responsibility to keep monitoring their responses (to the best of her ability -- she isn't supposed to be a psychologist or a parole officer) and to do something to stop it when they're obviously crossing a line.

To ignore that it is to be a greedy bloodsucking pig.

justlooking

04-07-2007, 11:20 AM

There was this time once where a stripper I knew posted occassionally on some strip club message board. An old customer of hers from a former club apparently saw her posts. He posted something on the board like, "Hi [stripper name]. Are you the same [stripper name] who used to work at X Club? I used to come to see you there all the time. I really loved you but you had a boyfriend then. Are you still together? Can I come and see you at Club Y?"

I alerted her to the post. Although I didn't say so explicitly, my intention was in the spirit of, "Watch out. It looks like you've got a stalker. Be careful: this guy might actually come to see you. Look out for him -- and be ready to bring him down and get rid of him if he does."

Imagine my surprise and disgust when she actually responded to his post, no less by posting something to the effect of, "Please come. I'd love to see you again?"

How could someone be so blind to both the exploitation they were engaging in of someone else's weakness and delusion, and the danger they were putting themself in?

I'm pretty sure that girl has changed since then.

Thorn

04-07-2007, 11:22 AM

justlooking

04-07-2007, 11:24 AM

Not really. At least not put like that. I started in strip clubs focusing heavily on the fantasy, with the assumption that sexual services were NEVER available. The actual availability of sexual services simply didn't fit into my calculus.

I think the debt "clean" dancers owe "dirty" dancers is the creation of a situation where the customer knows sexual services are available, so that dishonest "clean" dancers can mislead customers interested in such services about what they're going to provide. But that's not what we're talking about here.

As for M, remember that she now appears to work in a totally "clean" club.

Thorn

04-07-2007, 11:43 AM

I think the debt "clean" dancers owe "dirty" dancers is the creation of a situation where the customer knows sexual services are available, so that dishonest "clean" dancers can mislead customers interested in such services about what they're going to provide. But that's not what we're talking about here.

You put it better than I did, but that is precisely what I am talking about. Dancers who don't provide extras, but use the illusion that they might to get guys into the LD or VIP rooms. I put it that way because there are dancers who don't call that "being misleading", which is something I think we are talking about, and why I brought it up.

Can I presume that the way you put it means you do believe this type of thing to be misleading, and not simply taking advantage of a "natural misunderstanding" or the lay of the land?

I've actually had dancers tell me, when I have asked why a certain customer had a problem and was now causing something of a scene I now have to deal with as a bouncer, "It isn't my fault if the stupid guy thinks he is getting into my pussy or getting a blow job! I knew that was what he wanted but he didn't ask me directly what I do in the VIP, and if he thought I do more than I do it is totally on him."

What always surprised me was their honest shock and amazement when I expressed to them that it might be problematic if they knew a guy wanted, and more importantly expected because they did nothing to deter the guy from thinking otherwise, sex in the VIP and none was to be forth-cuming [pardon the very bad pun].

justlooking

04-07-2007, 11:44 AM

I agree. But that's not what this thread has really been about.

justlooking

04-07-2007, 11:55 AM

It's much easier to talk about "clean" strippers leading guys on with false suggestions of extras (what we AREN'T talking about here) than it is to talk about strippers of all stripes leading guys on with false suggestions of affection (what we ARE talking about).

It's easier because we'd all agree that making false suggestions of extras is wrong: it's consumer fraud.

But false suggestions of affection . . . well, isn't that part of a stripper's job? So then the question becomes, when does she cross the line? That's a harder question to grapple with (although I'm sure we all have fairly strong opinions on it: I know I do).

Thorn

04-07-2007, 12:42 PM

But false suggestions of affection . . . well, isn't that part of a stripper's job? So then the question becomes, when does she cross the line? That's a harder question to grapple with (although I'm sure we all have fairly strong opinions on it: I know I do).

I think its a very grey area, and precisely the "intoxicating" influence I alleged it to be in my previous posts.

Guys who are just extra seekers aren't looking for affection. They just want to get off and won't spend if they don't get. They are, probably, far less at risk for spending their paycheck at a strip-club.

It is the guys mistakenly looking for affection who are emptying their wallets.

Axe

04-07-2007, 12:59 PM

Do you really think its false affection, JL? (maybe this might get too personal)

I'd say it is actually sincere affection, just affection of a different kind. More like the 'affection' some people in the business world have when they've been partners for a while.

I mean, if you'e going to end up doing OTC stuff with them, then, at some level, they have to like you, right? I'd say by now you are a recognized cust at the clubs you go to. Your likes/dislikes are known and are transmitted to the girls they line you up with.

It happens to me as well once I become a steady cust, only the info is transmitted by different channels - its usually girl to girl.

Still, I know what it is you like about that instant friendliness/flattery/flirting, and, I like it too.

brykster

04-07-2007, 03:01 PM

There are no such criminal or civil liabilities attached to the actions of dancers, who are selling a product that can be, to some, as intoxicating as alcohol [and just as likely to cause the head to swim and the person to toss away rational thinking].

i know this. i'm talking purely from a humanistic angel...so it's not a law, so what? does that give people the license to do whatever is legal at the detriment of morality. i think not.

To be fair I know dancers who do precisely this.

When faced with a guy who they know can't afford to be purchasing 10 dances at $20 per they will tell them how sweet they think he is to show this level of interest, and give them a sweet peck on the cheek and send them out of the LD room at 3 dances, asking him to come back next pay day when he can afford three more. More frequently than not, they do just that. And if they run off and get seven more dances from another dancer anyway, they sleep better knowing they did the right thing.

good, i'm glad to hear that. i don't mean to generalize and say all dancers are bad. clearly, that would be a mistake. i'm talking more about people in general. having the attitude of "fuck you, i'll do whatever it takes to get ahead" really pisses me off. i guess because i am a compassionate person; but to hear people say "well, it's not my responsibility to help someone who is obviously out of control" irritates me from a humanistic standpoint, be it the philosophy of a provider, drug dealer, bookie...whatever.

brykster

04-07-2007, 03:03 PM

brykster

04-07-2007, 03:09 PM

I am curious as to what the dancers present, and long term strip-club goers like JL and Byrkster, think about something I said earlier:

Do you concur or not that so called "clean" dancers owe so called "dirty" dancers a debt of gratitude for providing the reason that the illusion of sexual availability works as well as it does because, at least on some level and by some dancers, it is available?

oh my god, Thorn. truer words have never been spoken. nobody pays 20 bucks with the expectation of an air dance or a grind with no roaming. we've all experienced that something extra; and we are constantly seeking to recapture that special moment. actually, if you know something about psychology (which you obviously do) you'll know the intermittent reinforcement of high mileage dance is the strongest type of reinforcer there is...it's what makes us continually take chances and it's what keeps us coming back for more.

brykster

04-07-2007, 03:16 PM

Not really. At least not put like that. I started in strip clubs focusing heavily on the fantasy, with the assumption that sexual services were NEVER available. The actual availability of sexual services simply didn't fit into my calculus.

maybe for the complete newbie fine; but JL, once you learned high mileage was available, were you ever again interested in anything else? to me, for the past 15 years, a standard dance is both unacceptable and in most cases, downright insulting. this is why someone frugal like me does not set foot into the high end world. it makes no difference to me how much better the women look; because i am not willing to pay the fee for what i want in that environment. sure, i can go to to a high end room, pay 20 bucks and get a standard dance; but for me, that'd be nothing short of toture. for me, there is no strip club and no stripper in the absence of VHM...or at least handies, which apparently do not qualify as VHM.

brykster

04-07-2007, 03:20 PM

What always surprised me was their honest shock and amazement when I expressed to them that it might be problematic if they knew a guy wanted, and more importantly expected because they did nothing to deter the guy from thinking otherwise, sex in the VIP and none was to be forth-cuming [pardon the very bad pun].

...because these women are as JL put it, greedy bloodsucking pigs. again, this not all a strippers; but the ones that do have this attitude qualify. and as if it needs to be said again, it's playing with fire and highly self destructive. you never know when you may be dancing for the next Ted Bundy.

brykster

04-07-2007, 03:22 PM

brykster

04-07-2007, 03:25 PM

I mean, if you'e going to end up doing OTC stuff with them, then, at some level, they have to like you, right?

oooh, this may be another thread; but i wouldn't make that assumption.

masquerade

04-07-2007, 07:55 PM

nobody pays 20 bucks with the expectation of an air dance or a grind with no roaming.

That's not true. There's plenty of strip clubs that strictly enforce the no touching during lap dances rule - I mean, not the ones you go to, but they exist. Obviously guys who patronize those establishments on a regular basis know what to expect, and they keep buying dances anyway.

justlooking

04-07-2007, 08:35 PM

justlooking

04-07-2007, 08:42 PM

are you suggesting we stick to the topic?

Yeah (although normally I'm the last person to suggest that).

justlooking

04-07-2007, 08:44 PM

oooh, this may be another thread; but i wouldn't make that assumption.

Depends, among other things, on how selective the stripper is about OTC activities.

justlooking

04-07-2007, 08:47 PM

justlooking

04-07-2007, 08:58 PM

Your likes/dislikes are known and are transmitted to the girls they line you up with.

Not just them. Once I walked into a new strip club that had just opened. It was late fall and chilly out, so I ordered a Manhattan.

The waitress, whom I never remember having seen before, said, "Oh, I thought you usually drink gin."

masquerade

04-07-2007, 09:24 PM

Just to be clear, I don't really think it's a stripper's responsibility to stop someone when they've gotten 10 dances in a row or anything like that.

It's her responsibility to stop someone when it becomes clear that he's entertaining inappropriate or incorrect ideas about their relationship.

That sounds about right.

See, there are only three situations in which I would refuse a dance to someone.

1. They are consistently disrespecting me and/or overstepping my boundaries

2. They are obviously too inebriated to make rational decisions

3. They are exhibiting stalker-ish behavior or saying things that make me really uncomfortable

outside of those parameters, don't you all think it would be pretty condescending for me to tell people how they should or shouldn't be spending their money? Am I supposed to look at a guy in a shabby outfit and be like, "You look poor.... time for you to stop spending money on strippers and go home to your wife and five kids."??

If a guy's enamored with me and I haven't mislead him in any way, am I really acting unethically in simply allowing him to continue spending money on lap dances? A lot of people think it's a huge waste of money - myself included.... but a lot of things are huge wastes of money. I'm sure the same people who buy lap dances from me would think the kinds of things I spend money on are retarded. I'm not the police of indiscriminate spending. Different things have different value to different people.

masquerade

04-07-2007, 09:29 PM

by the way....

when I said "enamored" I did not mean that the guy is exhibiting inappropriate attachment behavior. I just mean he's really into me at the moment, which is like, what my job is sort of all about.

Axe

04-07-2007, 09:44 PM

There's plenty of strip clubs that strictly enforce the no touching during lap dances rule - I mean, not the ones you go to, but they exist.

There are? Name one. (stay with me on this)

Seems to me the only ones that strictly enforce that rule are the HE clubs. Even then, as we've already discussed, all the action is obtained through 'official channels'.

Seriously, the only clubs I know of where this is true are inconsistent about it because of LE (law enforcement) problems and there are always take-out possibilities anyway.

The bottom-line here is that clubs stay open because the strippers bring in custs. The custs come in and become regulars because they are looking for more than just a whimsical, instantly forgettable, fantasy experience. What keeps the club open is that plenty of them usually find what they're looking for and if it cant happen IN the club, then it happens OUT of the club. If the custs cant get either of those, then the club eventually closes. Period.

Axe

04-07-2007, 09:45 PM

It's her responsibility to stop someone when it becomes clear that he's entertaining inappropriate or incorrect ideas about their relationship.

Exactly!

Axe

04-07-2007, 09:51 PM

The waitress, whom I never remember having seen before, said, "Oh, I thought you usually drink gin."

LOL

She probably never saw you before, but the stripclub 'grapevine' is very effective at transmitting essential info when it has to.

masquerade

04-07-2007, 10:32 PM

There are? Name one. (stay with me on this)

Seems to me the only ones that strictly enforce that rule are the HE clubs. Even then, as we've already discussed, all the action is obtained through 'official channels'.

Seriously, the only clubs I know of where this is true are inconsistent about it because of LE (law enforcement) problems and there are always take-out possibilities anyway.

The bottom-line here is that clubs stay open because the strippers bring in custs. The custs come in and become regulars because they are looking for more than just a whimsical, instantly forgettable, fantasy experience. What keeps the club open is that plenty of them usually find what they're looking for and if it cant happen IN the club, then it happens OUT of the club. If the custs cant get either of those, then the club eventually closes. Period.

Well, yeah... in general I was talking about HE clubs. Obviously most of the LE places are going to provide more hands-on lap dance experiences. Although, I happen to work at a place with strictly enforced no touching rules and no champagne room and it's definitely not HE. What some of the girls might do outside of the club with customers is any body's guess. This place might be an anomaly, but you did say "name one". So, there ya go.

Axe

04-07-2007, 10:50 PM

This place might be an anomaly, but you did say "name one". So, there ya go.

That wasnt my point. All clubs are supposed to strictly enforce no-touching rules of some kind during lap dances.

What some of the girls might do outside of the club with customers is any body's guess.

This feeds right into my point. Do you and I really have to guess what some of the girls do outside of the club with customers?

Like it or not, those are the strippers who keep the custs coming back for more, M. There are always exceptions, but for the most part, custs get laps as part of the process of figuring out if their fav stripper "does or doesnt" do extras - in the club or out.

brykster

04-07-2007, 11:35 PM

It's her responsibility to stop someone when it becomes clear that he's entertaining inappropriate or incorrect ideas about their relationship.

is there any other why a guy would spend his entire paycheck on a dancer.

Axe

04-07-2007, 11:53 PM

is there any other why a guy would spend his entire paycheck on a dancer.

I see your point, brykster. But how would the stripper know the guy has spent his whole paycheck on her?

masquerade

04-08-2007, 12:21 AM

I see your point, brykster. But how would the stripper know the guy has spent his whole paycheck on her?

Yeah, like what do you propose we do? ask for a declaration of income from every guy we dance for so that we can be certain we aren't taking food out of his kid's mouths? Even the guys who have the money to spare could obviously be spending it in better places. Who is anyone to judge what people spend their income on?

masquerade

04-08-2007, 12:30 AM

That wasnt my point. All clubs are supposed to strictly enforce no-touching rules of some kind during lap dances.

Yeah, but you asked for an example of a place that actually enforces that rule. Mine does. There's a bouncer running over and telling the guy to keep his hands to himself before I even feel him touching me.

Do you and I really have to guess what some of the girls do outside of the club with customers?

No, of course not.

Like it or not, those are the strippers who keep the custs coming back for more, M. There are always exceptions, but for the most part, custs get laps as part of the process of figuring out if their fav stripper "does or doesnt" do extras - in the club or out.

I think you're wrong though, at least in part. I think you're leaving out a large portion of strip club business, which is the big young drunk group type. From what I gather, they come in to drink and get loud and revel in mutual objectification of women. I don't think they give a shit whether or not they get extras... sure, I think they'd love it if they did, and a lot of them make attempts, but I don't think that's their main reason for walking in the door. You've also got your out of towners who are lonely and bored and feel like having a beer to unwind after a day of traveling and meetings. They hear about or pass by the local strip club and think... "hmmm... a beer sounds good, if I get to look at boobs and talk to a pretty girl while I drink it, even better."

Axe

04-08-2007, 12:41 AM

I think you're wrong though, at least in part. I think you're leaving out a large portion of strip club business, which is the big young drunk group type. From what I gather, they come in to drink and get loud and revel in mutual objectification of women. I don't think they give a shit whether or not they get extras... sure, I think they'd love it if they did, and a lot of them make attempts, but I don't think that's their main reason for walking in the door. You've also got your out of towners who are lonely and bored and feel like having a beer to unwind after a day of traveling and meetings. They hear about or pass by the local strip club and think... "hmmm... a beer sounds good, if I get to look at boobs and talk to a pretty girl while I drink it, even better."

Ok, I agree with you. Some clubs have a different business dynamic. Exceptions, exceptions...

brykster

04-08-2007, 12:41 AM

I think you're wrong though, at least in part. I think you're leaving out a large portion of strip club business, which is the big young drunk group type. From what I gather, they come in to drink and get loud and revel in mutual objectification of women. I don't think they give a shit whether or not they get extras...

you are right...but these are not the guys keeping the clubs in business. the regulars are and they are there for more than air dances. air dancers do not get repeat customers and usually their careers as dancers are pretty short because they don't develop regulars. any guy going to an air dance more than a couple of times a month would have to be the biggest loser walking the face of the earth.

the exception would be if you live very close to one of these bars and it sort of functioned as your neighborhood bar.