Price elasticity

[Slinky Bender]

From speaking with a number of incall places recently. it seems that there has been some slow down in business lately. I came to wonder if this is from stepped up LE efforts, the economy, or something else. Personally, my vote is for decreased disposable income ( or at least the perception on the consumer's side of an expected decrease in diposable income ).

However, in the face of this, at least one house has actually raise their rates recently.

My questions are: Has anyone lowered their rates ? ( or have rates become "negotiable" ? ). Does anyone ( besides me ) think that the overall $ a house could collect would actually increase if they reduced prices, due to increased business ( i.e. pricing is elastic ) ? What prices increase ( percentage ) do you think we have seen over the last few years, and how far will we have to "back slide" to get guys going out at the same rate they were last year ( which I think was an all time "dating" high ) ?

[pswope]

SB
imo,the mid-level incall places(Janes,Sterlings,Kama Sutra,Body Heat,Red Room) have reached a price point,which , from my perspective,is beyond the "utility",they provide to me. In my utility model,I include
1. Attractiveness of lady
2. Service(which includes clock watching)
3. Comfort of Place(which includes freedom from LE intervention).
4. Convenience

The above mentioned places(and JBs,which I have never used)have become so expensive,with the "expected" tip,that I find it vastly superior to engage the services of the ever rising number of independents.

With the possible exception of convenience,contracting with an indy easily wins on the first 3 criteria.

I have also found that ,as a generalization,indies are more flexible in negotiating a mutually acceptable arrangement as to time and or rate than brothels.

I have intentoinally omitted Julies because I think she recognizes to some extent the price elasticity concept and has refrained from inflationary pricing,while maintaining(from what I read),the most consistent level of high service in this segment of the market.

I think that other madames,whose business is suffering,would do well to borrow from Julie's business model.
They would also do well,to evaluate this sites Need something today as a means to gain some economic advantage from otherwise idle time.


Lest anyone think,I'm a shill for Julies,I have only been there 4 times and no longer go as I've been able to obtain Julie's "style" service through finding reasonable priced indies.
I will confess to shilling for Need something Today in order to get a certain FH to stop whining(though I totally believe in the concept)
BTW-I think the cooling economy and the related perception of Johns having less discretionary income is just starting to affect the slowness in the commercial sex market. IMO,it will get worse if the economy truly declines.

To answer your question,I believe that the mid-market brothels would see an increase in business in response to a decrease in price. They would do well to offer repeat customers some type of incentive for returning,whether in the form of a discount or extended time. Assuming LE influence declines,after Guiliani leaves(not a sure thing btw),the business in the brothels should pick up with pricing adjustments.


[Edited by pswope on 02-13-2001 at 10:28 AM]

[guy catelli]

the firm seeks to maximize profit, rather than revenues per se. as mentioned elsewhere ( see: thread that begins here: http://www.*********.net/discussion/posts/35205.html ) a wages are downwardly 'sticky'. wage decreases lower employee morale across the board. this is a major reason why firms layoff workers rather obtaining the same overall reduction in labor cost solely by reducing wages. were it not for sticky wages, there would never be any employment (at least that's the theory ;)).

the technical term for sticky wages is labor supply downward elasticity. the more downwardly elastic the labor supply, the greater the number of workers who will withhold their labor in response to a drop in wages.

thus, unless client demand upward elasticity (the amount clients would increase their patronage in response to an incremental drop in prices) exceeds the labor supply's downward elasticity, the firm must absorb all of the price decrease in order to increase even overall revenues.

the extent to which this would be profitable would in part be a function of a firm's marginal revenue profit. not all increased volume drops to the bottom line. as the number of clients increases, so do direct labor and administrative costs. thus, a drop in price of a dollar must be exceeded by more than a dollar in increased total revenues to make the price decrease profitable over the long term.

what is the overall answer? no one knows in advance. not the economics professors at the sorbonne or mit, not the economic planners in command economies, not the stakeholders, shareholders, managers, and workers of the firm itself. the answer cannot be known in advance; it can only be 'discovered' in the crucible of the marketplace itself.

[Geezy Muldoon]

call a general strike.

[Edited by Judge Crater on 07-25-2001 at 05:42 PM]

[SkellyChamp]

JC - You and I could talk and reminisce all day about SAA as we have done elsewhere. But those days are gone.
The concept of a strike, while certainly impossible, opens the mind to certain ideas which bring a smile to my lips. Imagine the picket line! Imagine what you could yell at a strike breaker who crosses the line in favor of a session! Imagine having your wife and children joining you on the picket line! Imagine the interview you give to News 4 while on line!

[Saint Bart]

Well, I guess as a former Professor of Economics, I could add a couple of comments to Guy's remarks (It might help to draw a downward sloping Demand curve and an upsward sloping Supply curve. Price is on the vertical axis, Quantity on the horizontal):

1. If the recession worsens - yes, we've already met the definition of at least a "growth recession" - GDP growth less than labor force growth so the unemployment rate rises - G'span yesterday forecast avg 4.5% unemployed in '01 and growth at 2.25% - The Hobbyists' Demand curve for SP's services shifts backwards to the left. At every price point along the Demand curve, there are now fewer consumers dueto lower incomes - some hobbyists are unemployed, some get no OT, others get no bonus.

2. With fewer "real" jobs around ("real" in the counted/economic sense - no question being an SP can be too real a job at times), the Supply of SP workers increases - the curve shifts out to the right. More are drawn into the biz, unfortunately out of desperation (not the ideal gal you want to visit) - needing quick and tax free money to pay bills and feed family.

3. The marginal cost to an SP to provide another hour of service is zero. For the lady, revenues are virtually the same as profit. While there may be a mental cost to working more hours, there's almost no out of pocket cost (another condom?). Same goes for an Agency, whose overhead and related costs are essentially fixed; given this, the Agency will tend to be a revenue mazimizer as well.

4. Guy's right about wages being "sticky" - no one wants to work for less money, but in a competitive biz where many of the providers are "interchangeable", some ladies will opt to compete on price. This forces others to either lower their prices to meet them, or to increase the service provided at the same price - more actual services provided - extra cups of coffee, or give one and one-half hours of time for the one hour rate - this is the same thing as lowering price, although the SP may not see it this way.

5. In past recessions, hobbyists were probably not frequent enough participants in the market to have enough information to determine how the supply, in terms of prices and number of providers, might have changed. But now in the era of Boards such as this, the information herein will make all hobbyists more aware of what's happening on the supply side. And SPs, by reading our comments and participating in our discussions, will be more aware of their competitors' actions in the market and react accordingly.

Conclusion: In a recession, both Hobbists' income and Providers' prices and incomes will fall. The probable net result is that we'll all be using roughly the same amount of services (where the shifted D and S curves now cross, Q nets out nearly the same), but paying less money (P is lower where S and D now intersect), so the percent spent of our lower incomes will remain the same (assuming we can still afford to play). SPs will need to work longer hours to earn the same money, or cut back on their own lifestyle and adjust to lower income as new entrants take business from the existing SPs - the same "Q" has to be sread among more SPs..

It won't be as much fun as the last couple of years when we could just dip into our portfolios to enjoy a wonderful lady, but we'll muddle through until things improve. I, for one, have many other things I'll give up before a recession forces me from this hobby!

[guy catelli]

.......3. The marginal cost to an SP to provide another hour of service is zero. For the lady, revenues are virtually the same as profit. While there may be a mental cost to working more hours, there's almost no out of pocket cost (another condom?). Same goes for an Agency, whose overhead and related costs are essentially fixed; given this, the Agency will tend to be a revenue mazimizer as well.

a 'free lunch'? (sorry, Bart, i couldn't help it ;)) the marginal costs are substantial and real. the ladies themselves have enumerated them in many places on many occasions.

4. Guy's right about wages being "sticky" - no one wants to work for less money, but in a competitive biz where many of the providers are "interchangeable", some ladies will opt to compete on price. This forces others to either lower their prices to meet them, or to increase the service provided at the same price - more actual services provided - extra cups of coffee, or give one and one-half hours of time for the one hour rate - this is the same thing as lowering price, although the SP may not see it this way.

absolutely true. however, i would like to mention what i think is an important difference between an indy and an employee of an establishment or agency. it's one thing to decide to cut one's own rate selectively by an amount, and according to criteria, of one's own chosing. it's a much 'stickier' matter when an across the board wage cut is imposed upon a group of workers by an employer.

..............Conclusion: In a recession, both Hobbists' income and Providers' prices and incomes will fall. The probable net result is that we'll all be using roughly the same amount of services (where the shifted D and S curves now cross, Q nets out nearly the same), but paying less money (P is lower where S and D now intersect), so the percent spent of our lower incomes will remain the same (assuming we can still afford to play).

perhaps i have misread the above. surely Q falls in a recession.

[Edited by guy catelli on 02-14-2001 at 08:26 PM]

[Saint Bart]

Guy:

"a 'free lunch'? (sorry, Bart, i couldn't help it ) the marginal costs are substantial and real. the ladies themselves have enumerated them in many places on many occasions."

No. The average cost of an hour may be substantial (total of clothes, beauty parlor, apartment, travel, etc, divided by hours worked is the average cost), but the cost of working one more hour - the marginal cost of seeing one more client, is zero - that's why your favorite provider sometimes treats you to the equivalent of a "free lunch" by letting you stay over the scheduled time - it costs her nothing and it's a great goodwill gesture!

"perhaps i have misread the above. surely Q falls in a recession."

Not if price falls due to the increased supply of more SPs in the biz, and/or existing SPs working more at the lower price trying to maintain their income level.
It's easy to show with a blackboard (dating myself?). Draw the normal S & D curves, P on vertical, Q on horizontal axis. Where S and D intersect is the pre-recession average Price and Quantity demanded. This graph shows what happens if price changes, everything else being equal (remember ceteris paribus?) But everything else isn't equal. Now there's a recession that lowers hobbists' incomes and brings more unemployed ladies into the biz. The only way to show the impact of this exogenous change on our graph is to shift the S and D curves. D shifts left - at every SP price point less is demanded by their respective clientele. S shifts right. At every price point, there's more SPs -more unemployed/underemployed Ford models are added at the high end, more unemployed factory workers at the lower end. How much both curves shift will only be found out over time in the marketplace. But, since they BOTH shift, Q will end up somewhere near where it began, yet prices will be lower. Pure Classical Economic theory. Keynes introduced the "sticky wage" theory and he was correct when taking about unions or skilled workers. Our ladies are certainly skilled, but even the very best can be substituted for in tough times - hamburger isn't steak, but it fills you up just the same!
If one could only write this stuff in a serious journal I might still in the classroom - lol

I think the real interesting aspect to the entire discussion is the availability of info due to these boards - It's close to what's called "perfect information" in a pure competion marketplace. And, just as SP prices rose as the stock market drove wealth higher - I played a lot more and bought a new boat, a perfect example of the "wealth effect" - prices will slowly slip as the recession kicks in. We'll know it immediately as SPs will start running "specials" on the boards. These will turn to permanent price reductions as the recession wears on. FYI - I don't wish this to happen - I much prefer greater personal wealth and higher SP prices - it's more fun for all. I'm just being realistic.

Class dismissed.

[Slinky Bender]

SB,

A few arguments with your arguments:

1) You ignore the opportunity cost of giving hours away for "free".

2) As wages fall, discretionary/disposable income falls far faster. The fixed living costs of most hobbyists will fall far slower ( or not at all ) than income, since many costs are fixed ( mortage and car payments, for example ).

3) There are many part timers ( and some full timers ) who were drawn into the business because of the inordinate hikes in the going rates ( like $2,000/hr agencies ). Many of these will leave, untold others will not enter the industry at the new price levels. It's one thing for an agency owner to say to a beautiful young lady "I can get you $1,000 an hour; you'll work once every two weeks and pay your rent" and "I can get you $200 an hour, if you work twice a week you can pay your rent" ( note this takes into account a 20% drop in rent ).

4) I personally believe a lot of the hobbying ( especially at some of the rpaidly increased prices ) occurred because of windfall profits taken in the various markets ( why do you think there is so much action in LV ? Take a guy who makes $1,000 a week, let him win $1,000 at a slot machine, and BINGO ! he's springing for a $400 girl, which he never would have done at home under "normal" circumstances ). Remove the windfall profits, and the "celebration spending" may disappear, with a lot of guys refusing to spend "earned" income on this hobby.

5) For personal reasons, I think a lot of providers will simply refuse to drop their prices. As a result, they will get fewer and fewer appointments, until they decide the industry just "isn't worth it" anymore.

From the foregoing ( 2 - 5 ), I think that prices will drop, on average, more than wages drop in general. I think that you will see an increase in activity in the lower and middle end, and a large thinning out in the upper end ( note: I'm not talking about the "true" upper end, which is so mysterious we never really hear about it on the Boards; people made a lot of fun of "Anne Marie, the educated escort" for being, what, $15K ? Theres a whole industry out there where this is the middle of the road, but those guys who use it don't post on boards like this ).

[Edited by slinkybender on 02-14-2001 at 10:29 PM]

[Saint Bart]

Slinky -
You make some good points that I don't have time to discuss further -
I'm off to the Miami Boat Show - Boats and Babes what can be better? On the latter, I'm seeing 5 in 3 days. In Boston, I'm known for my travelogue style reviews - I'll be posting a trip report on ***s there and Miami. (Here too if as the Moderator you think it's appropriate)
If this thread's still active, I'll respond to your points early next week

[guy catelli]

as they say on wall street: you can draw the curves any way you want. but, if Q doesn't fall for luxury services, then a recession isn't occurring in the first place, in real terms. (imagine a 'recession' in which the Q for renting pleasure boats did not decline.)

zero-net-Q offsetting decreases in nominal wages and prices is deflation, not recession.

but, your larger point is, imo, what is really most interesting here -- and throughout the overall economy as well. that is, the internet has reduced the market inefficiencies from imperfect information about prices and availability to an extent unimaginable before Al Gore invented the internet.

on the way up, a number of quoted rates doubled within 6 months to a year. i wouldn't expect perfect symmetry on the way down. but, there is already anecdotal evidence of falling prices in various parts of the country.


[Edited by guy catelli on 02-15-2001 at 08:37 AM]

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by slinkybender
.... the "true" upper end, which is so mysterious we never really hear about it on the Boards; people made a lot of fun of "Anne Marie, the educated escort" for being, what, $15K ? Theres a whole industry out there where this is the middle of the road, but those guys who use it don't post on boards like this ).


there's a similarly 'mysterious' upper end of the 'art' market. and, people who actually know about art are similarly amused. ;)

[Slinky Bender]

"I'll be posting a trip report ...Here .... if as the Moderator you think it's appropriate."

I'm sure we'd ll like to hear your field reports.

"If this thread's still active, I'll respond to your points early next week"

The beauty of the way this board is organized is that the threads stay active essentially forever. As long as there is a new post, it goes back to the top. I have no problems if someone reserects a thread that is a month or even a year old with new info. In fact, with this particular thread, it will be very interesting to revisit it in 6 months or a year, to see what actually happens and what predictions were acurate.

[corporateaffairs.ws]

Considering that we are in the midst of a stagflation, I know rates will remain inelastic. The general sentiment in the industry is that everyone is having a 'slow' quarter, so the reasons are not the rates (high or low).

Since everyone is experiencing a decline in business, and the demand is still high. I anticipate that you will see an increase in "selection" of women, and not a decrease in price.

That's what I've found to be true, over the years....

Yours,
Milan Hunter
COO

:p

[guy catelli]

ref: http://209.164.24.17/newyork/posts/25423.html

{note last two words of subject header.}

[Slinky Bender]

I saw that. It's interesting that the amount of "high end touring" by Porn Stars seems to have curtailed to some extent. Of course, it's difficult to ascertain whether this is the economy or some of the things which have occured ( like a bust in chicago or various safety "incidents" in various places ).

We have yet to see any of the mid-end houses drop prices. I'm not as familiar with what's the curent state of affairs with the mid- upper-mid end agencies. Any slack ????

I do think that some of the Indy's who had gotten used to the $400 level are having more problems with bookings than they used to.

[John Blackthorne]

The dog's Seattle board..

The great man suggested that Seattle prices needed to rise.

This is a cool economy, in a city where just 2 hours away beautiful ladies are available for maybe $120US.

He and some ladies have claimed that as a luxury item escorts and their business are not market driven, .just available to those who deserve them.

Will be interesting how this plays out. But I think the law of supply and demand will triumph once again, only DeBeers has been able to trump it consistently.

jb

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by John Blackthorne
.... I think the law of supply and demand will triumph once again, ...."the laws of supply and demand are inexorable and irresistable." {guy catelli, mid-1980's, predicting the eventual collapse of communism in the soviet union (though not its political collapse).}....only DeBeers has been able to trump it consistently."The diamond trade is, of course, cyclical like any other commodity..." see: http://www.fm.co.za/topco2000/topother.htm

[Slinky Bender]

"only DeBeers has been able to trump it consistently"

Well, if anyone manages to control the percentage of the worlds ( you know what ) as DeBeers, then they have the same chance. Don't forget, one of the causal factors of monoply is "barriers to entry". In this business, there are very, very few. And anyone who thinks that kuxury items don't suffer in a slow economy is an absolute moron. In fact, luxury items offer suffer the most. I know I've stated this before, but I'll say it again because it's an important concept: luxury items get paid for with disposable income. Total income goes down when the economy slows, but many expenses do not go down nearly as quickly ( if at all ). most people's "fixed" monthly expenses are just that - fixed. If you own a house, or have a long term lease on one, you payment does not go down even if your salary does. Same with your car payment. How fast will your insurance rates ( house, car, medical ) go down ?

The result is that when your total income goes down a lot, your disposable income often totally disappears. Even when it doesn't go down a lot, disposable income suffers drastically. this is what pays for the hooby for the vast, vast majority of guys, so that same vast majority will scale back. Claiming prices should rise in such conditions is a typical bone-head move made by a lot of people when business slows. Since they claim they need to make more money off each "sale" ( because business has slowed and they are making less sales ) they raise tehir prices. But "the market" couldn't give a shit about what anyone "needs". The market punishes people who think that it cares, by making sure that anyone who prices according to "their needs" gets no business.

"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" wasn't Adam Smith talking.

There are some very small submarkets which just happen to be luxury items which are less effected by downturns in the economy. They are typically very rare, very high priced items, which are bought by people with so much money that the downturn has not really effected them personally. For example, I would say that there are chances that the $25,000 a nite providers will still get their business. Of course, everyone always want to think of themselves as being in one of those groups. of course, those are the same people who, less than two years ago, spoke of eh "new economy", where there were no longer "business cycles'. they held thier course with their hiolding of Priceline, Yahoo and other "new economy" companies ( and for those who want to talk about the "other" new economy co's that actually have tangible products, how many thousands did the poster child of this - Cisco - announce they will lay off today ??? ).

The other thing which will happen is that people will start to seek out alternatives which cost more time and less money, since they won't be working as long hours, will have free time, but not as many $$. JB's point about guys travelling a few hours for a cheap alternative will strike home at some point like an anvil.

Some people will inovate and 'sell into' the changing market. others will try to "hold the line" and will eventually blame the business for their misfortunes and leave it, tired and unhappy.

And as a side note, even when monopolies manage to keep prices high during a slowdown, they tend to do it by managing the amount of product released for sale. So, Debeers may be able to keep prices stable, but they have to do it by selling way few diamonds ( on purpose ). The end result is less $$$$$$ flowing in. So, in this business, if if somehow some group was able to miraculously restrict teh supply to keep prices up, the net result would still be less revenue in total. Is that something that you think the people who are planning this "price freeze" are plannig on ?

[HAPPY GUY]

If you guys spend all of your time pontificating like this, every escort in NYC is going to go out of business. Their customers'll never leave their computers.

Meant in the friendliest, most jesting possible spirit.

Obviously, I know nothing about economics, the stock market, etc., etc. In fact, I'm probably one of the few people HOPING for a recession.

[guy catelli]

SB is absolutely correct. De Beers cannot raise diamond prices during a recession to escape a decline in revenues. the best it can do is hold the line on prices by allowing fewer diamonds onto the market, accepting a decline in revenues through fewer sales.

however, the number of diamond mines in the world, and their location, makes it possible for De Beers to control the quantity of diamonds reaching the market.

but, suppose a 25-year old has just been laid off from a $60,000/yr job at a dot-com company in nyc's 'silicon alley'. there's nothing comparable to DeBeers that can stop this person from deciding to offer time and companionship for $200/hr.

as SB pointed out in another post, the price of labor is 'sticky' for those who are already accustomed to selling their labor at a certain rate. but, for new entrants, especially immigrants, a substantially lower rate than that which formerly prevailed is still more money than they have ever been paid before.

and, you can bet that an uptick in unemployment here will result in a relatively larger rise in unemployment in those countries whose economy exports a lot of its output to the u.s., thus increasing the flow of immigrants over our borders.

this two-tier wage scale, between the 'old guard' and the avant garde, if you will, is already quite common in the civilian labor market. there is no reason why it won't happen in our market if the economic slowdown continues.

[Slinky Bender]

I thought it might be an interesting time to resurrect this.

[pswope]

Prior to January ,I found numerous indies and brothels willing to lower their prices without much effort on my part to negotiate. It seems a good number of ladies jumped ship from agencies,in large part to cut prices and pocket whole tariff. Heidi is great example apparently.

[jmcurry]

I have also found agencies willing to provide incentives, such as discounted rates and longer sessions. I first noticed this around the Christmas holidays, and it seems to be continuing.

[Geezy Muldoon]

Extra hour at a discount is what I've seen from independents. Useful for additional conversation and a third orgasm.

[candie]

I sure hope you aren't letting the little heads hear all this! Bad enough their smushed while typing!



hi guy

[jmcurry]

Candie: I don't think guy can hear you. Or may be, he just can't respond.

[occasionalhobbyist]

Very interesting thread. Before my membership days.

Personally, I think the fundamental assumptions of economic theory that undergird the laws of supply and demand -- i.e., the notion that we all have fixed tastes and preferences -- are not valid. This is proven every Christmas, with some "Tickle Me Elmo" fad hits.

The explanation is that economics is a complex adaptive system. We take our cues from the decisions made by other agents, although this too is based on a probabilistic outcome.

In other words, classical economic theory hypothesizes that, facing a marginal utility choice, we will choose A) [CHOOSE A based on our fixed tastes and preferences] or B) [CHOOSE B based on our fixed tastes and preferences].

Complexity theory, which I prefer as an explanation for all those times where classical economic theory falls flat (and which provides the basis for the "stickiness" that guy cites in his posts of last year) holds that we can choose A), B) or C) [Follow someone else's lead]. If you're interested in more on this, I recommend "Butterfly Economics" by Paul Ormerod.

Because this leads to complex mathematics that use time dimensionality to solve for X (and are WAAAAYYY beyond my capacity for calculations), we can't predict future price movements or future stock market movements, or future economic growth. We can, however, make statements about the likelihood of a range of growth rates, or price movements. (Which we probably could've done intuitively anyway.)

In my experience the increased transparency of the trade has had a mixed effect. It's sort of frozen prices. I've not found many values of late. At the same time, I've not found anything way out of wack in terms of my "customer delivered value" model (similar to pswope's utility model...

But I will say that I believe economic professors have sold us all a bill of goods and constructed an arcane and impenetrable vocabulary to make it seem like their years of schooling was somehow worthwhile. Must be an economic model somewhere to explain that. I'm going back to Keynes' General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money. Only economists articulate on "animal spirits" are of interest to me.

[Bill Furniture]

Well, the NJ Agencies all gave special rates for the holidays and one of them has kept their rates lower than they were before.

Reach out and boink someone.:D

[JohnJ]

I was recently quoted by an independent that she would not lower her rate but simply add 30 minutes to the session.... ( I like this one)

Someone else sugested t go use the agencies...... ummm guess what.....

[foglife]

The economic concept is very simple. It has nothing to do with what a product costs to produce, it's value is always, exactly what people are willing to pay for it.
If somthing costs $1000. to make, but people will only spend $3 for it, it is worth $3. simple.
When the proce of pussy is more than we are willing ot pay, either the price wil come down, or we will not buy it.

[Bill Furniture]

I remember getting it for $5 :D

[candie]

Can I watch?

[Bill Furniture]

Originally posted by candie
Can I watch?

Anytime Baby!

[Daniel_NYC]

I tend to patronize independents. That being said I have surfed the sites of many providers that ask astronomical fees. Many will say that their fees are non-negotiable, and if it is beyond my price point I move on. However many providers sites have rates of $$$$ for the hour, if no disclaimer has been made, and I am interested, I call. I ask them what their rate is, many will say what do you normally pay? Or may even state that it is $$$$, at which point I say that is beyond my budget, Thank you. They usually will quickly reply, well what is within your budget?

The point I am trying to make is this:
Some providers charge astronomical rates because they are worth it and people are willing to pay for it. These are the ones that state "my fees are non-negotiable." I have even visited with providers like this.
Some providers are out to get the most money they can from each session, if someone is willing to pay the stated rate, o.k. If politely told, "that is beyond my budget" quickly drop their rate by hundreds of dollars. You can't blame them for trying for the higher rate. The downside to this is that many hobbyists see the higher rate and never consider the provider.
I only state this because in my experience I have seen at least two providers who have asked for 3.5$/hour and when told that "this is beyond my budget" have accepted $$ for an hour which is closer to the going rate at the time.

[Julienyc]

Coming in from left field since this started off awhile back on the thread but, I really think economy is a big issue concerning brothels. I get calls everyday from clients who say Julie I won't be around for awhile I just got booted from my long time job. I feel really bad for these guys who were really booming and then out of the no where they are dismissed from their jobs.

I think that any price right now over 200 would be pushing it. We have to respect the clients and understand that times are hard right now and we must realize that at this time the consumer wants what he can afford. I am finding really pretty indies are showing up at our door more than ever now. Quality and good price is a real must at this time. I think they just want to relax and let the house work for them for awhile. I talk to Madams who are really feeling this economy crunch and when you offer advice and tell them to cut the prices a little from 300 they don't want to hear it. The 500 buck outcalls are really feeling it now and most are going to have to come down a little or just wait it out and see what is going to happen in the near future. I wish everyone the best and hope things only get better with the economy situation.

[Julienyc]

Originally posted by foglife
The economic concept is very simple. It has nothing to do with what a product costs to produce, it's value is always, exactly what people are willing to pay for it.
If somthing costs $1000. to make, but people will only spend $3 for it, it is worth $3. simple.
When the proce of pussy is more than we are willing ot pay, either the price wil come down, or we will not buy it.

You are correct in saying this , I notice that pride comes in and some of the ladies really feel that they are selling a piece of their soul and they feel they are worth the highest price and they are but in reality competition and economy is a big factor. Our house has never been one to push for big prices because this is our belief no hustle, great quality at a great price. It is so funny because price really influences guys , our house was given a good rep but the quality was always discussed among the guys. I really got a kick out of this because the same girls we have or had are the same girls that go to very expensive houses. Chyenne, Charo , Julianna, Ina , Bridgett, Gina , Kelly on and on. I know every woman thinks she is worth the most and she is but right now everyone must adjust to the economy situation and whats more to the demand and what the demand is up for paying.

[pswope]

Many Madames and indies reacted to the decline in volume by raising fees,feeling they would make up in extra margin what they lost in volume. This was of course wrong and rpices are coming down.

Julie
You should consider some type of 20 minute special. One bust and your out for $50. Probably pick up alot of new lients that otherwise go to Spanish Houses and keep your girls busy,instead of watching Rikki Lake,eating,and talking about how their boyfriends mistreat them.

[Escort_King]

Originally posted by JohnJ
I was recently quoted by an independent that she would not lower her rate but simply add 30 minutes to the session.... ( I like this one)

Someone else sugested t go use the agencies...... ummm guess what.....

The extra time is a smart move.. the providers are looking for the extra money, but in most cases see the job as a number versus time... how many visits to make "x" for the shift/day... adding time would make the buyer happy so this may be something providers may like to think over...

[Bill Furniture]

Originally posted by Julienyc
I am finding really pretty indies are showing up at our door more than ever now.

They can knock on my door anytime!:D

[Bill Furniture]

Originally posted by Daniel_NYC
I tend to patronize independents. That being said I have surfed the sites of many providers that ask astronomical fees. Many will say that their fees are non-negotiable, and if it is beyond my price point I move on. However many providers sites have rates of $$$$ for the hour, if no disclaimer has been made, and I am interested, I call. I ask them what their rate is, many will say what do you normally pay? Or may even state that it is $$$$, at which point I say that is beyond my budget, Thank you. They usually will quickly reply, well what is within your budget?

The point I am trying to make is this:
Some providers charge astronomical rates because they are worth it and people are willing to pay for it. These are the ones that state "my fees are non-negotiable." I have even visited with providers like this.
Some providers are out to get the most money they can from each session, if someone is willing to pay the stated rate, o.k. If politely told, "that is beyond my budget" quickly drop their rate by hundreds of dollars. You can't blame them for trying for the higher rate. The downside to this is that many hobbyists see the higher rate and never consider the provider.
I only state this because in my experience I have seen at least two providers who have asked for 3.5$/hour and when told that "this is beyond my budget" have accepted $$ for an hour which is closer to the going rate at the time.

I've never tried to get a lower rate because I feel I may not get the best session possible if I just low-balled the lady. I may be wrong though.

[hot4chicks]

We're now on to discussing product substitution from price elasticity?

Its not a far stretch to discussing the marginal benefits in the price elasticity during product substitution. (eg, spending $200 instead of $500)

And to think I come here to talk about the moral ambiguity of prostituion.

[Daniel_NYC]

Absoluitely, I never haggle with an established provider who has an excellent reputation. I am seeing and paying her because of that reputation and I wouldn't want to insult the provider by asking for a cheaper rate.
However there are many providers who are posting higher rates for numerous reasons some of which include:
Hobbyists may just pay it.
She is trying to represent herself as part of the elite worthy
of such a price point.
However when embarking on unchartered waters, If I see a provider with a rate out of my budget that I would like to see and she has no rate disclaimer on her site. I pretend not to know the rate and take it from there.

I will never offer what I feel is, and Julie apparently agrees, less than the going rate of $$.
That is not to say I won't pay more for someone who has an outstanding reputation, I have and I will. In fact I plan to visit with someone today........Well that's another thread!

[Geezy Muldoon]

So I am never tempted to feel affection for a prostitute again, I would like a reliable quality source of 5 minute sessions.

[pswope]

JC:
Deja




(ps- found the closest,repeat closest, current working girl to the venerated Martine. From Paris,daughter of a diplomat. on nye as Brigette[when she loses the 20 stress related lbs,she has a smokin bod. Even used Martine as her working name at one time)

[Geezy Muldoon]

PS:

Ah, Martine...Scent of very, very old cookies...

(Never have experienced any prostitute as thoroughly enjoyable to me as she was. Not in 17 years of trying. Not anywhere. Not for any amount of money. No matter how many repeat sessions I paid for.)

Thanks for reminding me and altering me to a possible doppleganger.

[Julienyc]

Originally posted by pswope
Many Madames and indies reacted to the decline in volume by raising fees,feeling they would make up in extra margin what they lost in volume. This was of course wrong and rpices are coming down.

Julie
You should consider some type of 20 minute special. One bust and your out for $50. Probably pick up alot of new lients that otherwise go to Spanish Houses and keep your girls busy,instead of watching Rikki Lake,eating,and talking about how their boyfriends mistreat them.

I got ya baby ,but we are not allowing to many new clients at this time. We have a membership and we are always giving great price for great service. We only charge 200 per hour so we are not feeling the stress as bad as the higher priced houses. I was just trying to give my input on the situation being discussed. Are you kidding , if I told these ladies we were going under the 200 mark they would murder me.

[Bill Furniture]

Originally posted by Daniel_NYC
I pretend not to know the rate and take it from there.



Good idea. I know that some ladies I'm friednly with ask me when I'm going to see them, but I have to pass if the rates are too high.

[Escort_King]

Originally posted by JohnJ
I was recently quoted by an independent that she would not lower her rate but simply add 30 minutes to the session.... ( I like this one)

Someone else sugested t go use the agencies...... ummm guess what.....

Okay share the info.... would always go for the extra time.... but if she turns out to be a one cupper... you are just being played...

[Slinky Bender]

NOTE: THIS THREAD IS OVER 2 YEARS OLD

but I think the subject is still "timely", so if anyone has any "fresh" opinions......

[dduck024]

I agree with you slinky this is still a timely question. I have seen ad's from some independants for as much as $$$$$. Not in this economy. I have also noticed there are more independants lately in NY so why is the $'s seem so high? I would think with the over saturation of ladies right now and the shakey economy there would be better value out there.

[Slinky Bender]

What's really interesting is that I have seen some newly independant ladies who used to work at houses who are asking for $300-$400 when they were at $200/$250 houses.

[Dondee]

Well that makes sence! The pussy holes got bigger. So you gotta pay more! Just stands to reason. :D

[buddyyy]

Originally posted by slinkybender
NOTE: THIS THREAD IS OVER 2 YEARS OLD



So I guess that means Guy Catelli really isn't back.

[theword]

It's strange if prices are going up in this economy.

There have to be fewer guys around who can afford the high prices.

I'm guessing more women are tempted to get into the business by the bad economy.

I would also think that some independents would switch over to working at houses where there is a more consistent level of business.

Sounds like this is not what is happening though.

[jseah]

maybe since there are fewer guys around who can afford the high prices, the prices are going up so the ladies can hope to still make the same total gross from a fewer number of clients........

[justlooking]

And if your goal is to make your nut while doing the minimum amount of sex work necessary, that isn't even irrational.

Provided, of course, you can make your nut.

[mydesign]

I think the asking price may be the same or rising, but the wiggle room is larger.

Providers may be advertising under what they believe they are worth, yet may be more willing to negotiate if the hobbiest asks.

Also, we are starting to see more lower priced joints in the outer boroughs (note, not that they haven't been lower priced before, its just that more seem to advertise) and more places are occasionally offering "specials" and "discounts" or multiple pops, bbbj, and gfe compared to providers in the past.

[sean960]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnJ
[B]I was recently quoted by an independent that she would not lower her rate but simply add 30 minutes to the session.... ( I like this one)

I have also noticed many ladies doing this,my personal favorite as well,this way nobody gets shorted.Most of the ladies I've seen never rush anyway,which is why they get my repeat business.
I have never asked a girl to lower her rate,and never would...But really enjoy the no rush sessions....These are the ones that will do well even in a tough economy.

[justme]

Suggestion for a poll:

How many people have seen agency or non-negotiated brothel rates fall in the last two years.

vs.

How many people have seen their salaries reduced in the last two years.

I'd restrict reductions in salaries to people that are employed in the same position, at the same firm, who are not self-employed, and calculate the change based on simple salary (before bonus or other 'special' compensation).

[shadow]

What about a sushi menu approach?

You pick the items you want and pay only for the items you eat.

"How much is the DFK?"

"Well, that's a bit much, LFK is a bit cheaper, so I'll take that... and while your at it, serve me a portion of BBBJ."

You can get different combinations and if you're not too hungry you end up paying less.

[mydesign]

Originally posted by justme
Suggestion for a poll:

How many people have seen agency or non-negotiated brothel rates fall in the last two years.

vs.

How many people have seen their salaries reduced in the last two years.

I'd restrict reductions in salaries to people that are employed in the same position, at the same firm, who are not self-employed, and calculate the change based on simple salary (before bonus or other 'special' compensation).

That would skew the poll, since we are trying to compare brothel prices to the overall pool of hobbyists that would or have affected their prices...that would include hobbyists who are self employed and unemployed.

[hot4chicks]

I think a better subset would be to ask, how much have you spent on hookers as a percent of net income. How income was derived is irrelevant.

[JackT]

I believe the poll would be skewed in the first instance because it asks two incongruous questions (comparing respondents who KNOW ABOUT a brothel, etc.,whose rates have been lowered vs. those who THEMSELVES have had a reduction in salary). I.e., many respondents may answer based on the same brothel.

[robnotbob]

In my ridiculously limited experience I have found that on the indie side, if I've seen a girl a couple of times, and I'm frienddly and she "likes"me, and I call her (or she'll send an ***** trolling for biz), I'll ask about the fee and she'll say $x and I say ooh, not now and she immediately comes back and says well, how much COULD you pay?

So I think depending on the john/hooker "relationship", the women are open to giving a "break", so to speak.

Then again, what the hell do I know?

Caveat: I haven't partaken in 3 whole months.

[TuckernotSucker]

Originally posted by robnotbob
In my ridiculously limited experience I have found that on the indie side, if I've seen a girl a couple of times, and I'm frienddly and she "likes"me, and I call her (or she'll send an ***** trolling for biz), I'll ask about the fee and she'll say $x and I say ooh, not now and she immediately comes back and says well, how much COULD you pay?

So I think depending on the john/hooker "relationship", the women are open to giving a "break", so to speak.

Then again, what the hell do I know?

Caveat: I haven't partaken in 3 whole months.

OMG---I would not want to be the first girl you see upon your return. Then again I am not a girl.

[Cloud Nine]

ACHOO!!

ACHOO!!!


Sorry, I have dust allegeries.

[justlooking]

FWIW, there's no way in hell I would see anybody who took the "sushi menu" approach.

[JackT]

Originally posted by justlooking
FWIW, there's no way in hell I would see anybody who took the "sushi menu" approach.

Not ambiguously deceptive enough for ya?

[h. von bingen]

i think a sushi menu pay-as-you-go would be an excellently hilarious experience.

[h. von bingen]

wait -- is that called extras at a strip club?

[justlooking]

That's EXACTLY what it's called.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by JackT
Not ambiguously deceptive enough for ya?

BINNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[justlooking]

Originally posted by justlooking
That's EXACTLY what it's called.

Two Kinds Of Extras At Strip Clubs

1. Like at ASSCons, Passions, Dumbartons, etc. You negotiate with the stripper beforehand for the precise services you'll get and the precise price point you'll pay. I hate that shit. Not ambiguously deceptive enough for me.

2. Like at Paradise, VIP, etc. You get a room and what happens happens. Then you tip accordingly. I much prefer this. The ambiguous deceptiveness of it is just what I'm after.

[h. von bingen]

you aren't really explaining this as if i don't know it, are you? what i need to know is: what is a lockdown?

[justlooking]

http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=6766&highlight=mainstream

[Cloud Nine]

Aren't the legal brothels in NV priced that way?

I even remember reading somewhere that they make a ton of money selling just the 'menus'.

[robnotbob]

Originally posted by TuckernotSucker
OMG---I would not want to be the first girl you see upon your return. Then again I am not a girl.

(setting myself up)

I don't think I will be "returning".

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
what is a lockdown?

Although you often see the underground parties described around here as "lockdowns" or "locked doors", they aren't really. The classic idea of a lockdown was that the place opened at a certain time, filled up with customers for a certain time period, and then the doors were locked, and no one came in or out. the concepty was that it was more secure from being busted if folks weren't flowing in and out.

(PS I thought you were a fag hag? You're going to lose your card over this).

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by robnotbob
(setting myself up)

I don't think I will be "returning".

What number is this?

[justlooking]

Well, the joint was rocking
Going round 'n' round
Yeah, reeling and a-rocking
What a crazy sound
Well, they never stopped rocking
'Til the moon went down

Well it sounded so sweet
I had to take me a chance
I rose out of my seat
And had to dance
I started moving my feet
And clapping my hands

About twelve o'clock
When the place was packed
The front doors were locked
I said the place was packed
When the police knocked
Those doors flew back

But it kept on rocking [etc.]

About twelve o'clock
Around lock up time
Well, the doors were locked
Said the place was packed
When the police knocked
Those doors flew back

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by slinkybender

(PS I thought you were a fag hag? You're going to lose your card over this).

no fag hag i. in fact, i think it's dangerous for straight women to hang out with gay men too much. (leads to too much dishing and not enough getting laid.) as for evegirl, well i miss her too. you know i thought hombre would want to get DOWN, but now, he doesn't even want me hanging around here. ironic, no?

[TuckernotSucker]

If you do not return, prices will certainly go down.

[h. von bingen]

i do love me some gay porn tho!

[robnotbob]

Originally posted by slinkybender
What number is this?

Hey, I can TRY, right?

[BIGd]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
...you know i thought hombre would want to get DOWN, but now, he doesn't even want me hanging around here. ironic, no?

Hooked up with wrong pathetic, sex obsessed john perhaps?

[h. von bingen]

nope. but this isn't the first time formerly open minded men have gone stone age on me. i think the steady supply of excellent sex makes them bold.

[JackT]

so does desperation make them more open minded then?

[h. von bingen]

it appears so.

[mydesign]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
no fag hag i. in fact, i think it's dangerous for straight women to hang out with gay men too much. (leads to too much dishing and not enough getting laid.)

Yes, then they become comfortable dishing to their boyfriends who just want them to open their legs and shut the other trap.

[h. von bingen]

my point exactly, if not very deftly made.

[justme]

Originally posted by mydesign
That would skew the poll, since we are trying to compare brothel prices to the overall pool of hobbyists that would or have affected their prices...that would include hobbyists who are self employed and unemployed.

Actually the point of my poll was to illustrate that it's extremely hard to cut someone's wages unless that someone is you.

[justme]

That is, what I'd expect to see in the nature of lowered prices isn't a reduction in the prices at existing mps agencies, but rather working girls moving to houses where the rates are lower (and business reputably higher).

Indies set their own rates and are more like business owners than agency / mp girls who are more like employees.