Relationships in the business

[ValerieXXX]

Hi, I am back! Ok here is the post I promised, please read into this thoroughly.
Have you ever dated a provider, maybe a few times. Felt a closeness to her in ways that do not reflect your feelings towards women in the business. Find that you really care for this woman and felt that you wanted to "save" her from this industry?
Same question applies to our lady friends only have you ever wanted your special client to save you?
Now let's not get into the "prostitute, john," blah, blah, blah crap. Just want to see if there are some in this bunch who might look into the complexities of a real issue without brushing off the possibility that we might care for another human being. Now as I said in previous posts, honesty!!!!!!!!!!



Hey, where is my silver?...lol

[Phantom]

VaL,

First of all welcome back!

You asking ME THIS question? Do YOU really want me to answer this?

She KNEW that what she did for a living did not bother me in the least. It would not have bothered me if she continued to work while I dated her outside the business. Yes, I would have ASKED her to stop, but I would have supported any decision she made. She had dreams that were totally obtainable if she continued to work. If she stopped, *I* would foreve be blamed for her not reaching those dreams.

[Ozzy]

ahhhh,

i'm gonna stay out of this one.


go see the "session managment" thread here on UG.


phantom, you should steer clear of this one too.

[Ozzy]

;)





[Edited by Ozzy on 02-13-2001 at 09:23 PM]

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

Originally posted by Ozzy


you guys owe me for the hits i'm gonna take on this one

[Edited by Ozzy on 02-12-2001 at 10:50 PM]

Time to fall on your own sword Don Quioxte

[Allen]

Ozzy,

BTW, I've got a place just like where we were that night down here. Only difference, hot latinas:) When ya coming son?

[Ozzy]

in a few weeks!!! :D


i just relized my passport expired......

Dominican Republic......

it's just what i need to get away from the mess i'm in now..........

five hookers for the price of one.




now who wants to rent my cell phone while i'm away?

there is quite an impressive list of names in there.

[Edited by Ozzy on 02-13-2001 at 06:30 AM]

[SkellyChamp]

And you let pass no opportunity to say it or imply it.

[ValerieXXX]

My dearest Ozzy, seems to me as though you should step back from her. Excuses always mean a let down. trust me, I had a person who I fell for out side of the biz and I realized after my heart was deeply in it, I was just considered a rag or a lay by him for 5 years. I should have seen the signs, and I considered disolving my marraige for him.
Ok folks, what I am asking to rephrase is if you had deeply fallen for a lady, and wanted to save her from this. Especially since we are considered whore and the negative like, you wanted to shield the lady from all demeaning negativity that locker room talk brings on, and try to make her truly yours, you had seen the true person before the provider and you fell for her. Kind of like being her knight in shining armor
Ladies have you ever wanted to be saved.

[Ozzy]

thanks val.

btw, not that i've tried......well ok just this once, i offered to hook a certain girl ( who i knew rather well)up with a job in the field she was looking for......... she turned down the offer without even thinking it over. and it started at $900/week, though not up to what she was making as an escort it was a good start and had a future.

i've found that none or almost none want to be saved or it would happen more often.

[Edited by Ozzy on 02-13-2001 at 09:28 PM]

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

Originally posted by ValerieXXX
Kind of like being her knight in shining armor
Ladies have you ever wanted to be saved.

It's been my difficult lesson that my Shining Armor thing had more to do about me being rescued than rescuing.

The 'romance' of lifting a loved one up, hoping they'll be grateful and loyal for life is a road fraught with difficulty.

Just when you think you've found the right Damsel in Distress, you'll likely find a person who doesn't want rescued. Then, it becomes a dysfunctional dance.

Yeah. I've thought about it, read about it, lived it and am hoping to avoid the heartbreak as I move forward.

[Slinky Bender]

I must confess that the closest I've come to a knight in shining armor is to help girls get into the business.

[Geezy Muldoon]

Think.










[Edited by Judge Crater on 07-25-2001 at 01:22 PM]

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by slinkybender
I must confess that the closest I've come to a knight in shining armor is to help girls get into the business.

it is clear that SB is the most loving one of all. he has put their needs ahead of his own male ego. this is what true love is all about.

[jmcurry]

Saving a provider involves a predisposition to believe that the individual is in the business for "bad" reasons and needs salvation. Although that argument always surfaces in these discussions, my conversations with women in the hobby, over the years, belies that stereotype. Many women are not looking to be saved and actually enjoy their work. I always, optimistically, and perhaps equally naively, enter these relationships with the perception that the individual I am about to have sex with actually enjoys what she does. Accordingly, I never fantasize about extracting her from her profession in order to redeem her.

On the other hand, I have, on one occasion, fallen for a someone so completely that I offered my "assistance" to help her find other work. I now understand that my inclinations were misguided, and I am suffering the consequences. We have not seen each other in quite some time, and I have lost immeasurably. By no means was this due solely to my offer of job assistance. But that single incident characterized my affection, and my inability to bifurcate our professional relationship from our developing personal one. Now I have nothing, at least as far as she is concerned.

Based on this recent experience, I would suggest that we pursue the hobby rigorously, but keep in mind that it is always money for sex, and nothing more. Sorry to be so nihilistic, but it has been a tough week, and it is only Wednesday.

[Geezy Muldoon]

bows.

[Edited by Judge Crater on 07-26-2001 at 11:45 AM]

[jmcurry]

Thanks JC. I hope I was helpful. But I still attempt to discern what I did, in that relationship, that was so egregiously wrong. I would appreciate feedback from anyone, at least anyone who is serious.

[Phantom]

Being what it is, email sent through UG, I'm just curious as to whether you received my response?

[Slinky Bender]

Note: we've decided to go back to the "original" format for email on UG, so that when you send an email through the site,you "home" email will show up on it. The 'fix" was causing more problems than the problem. For those who wish to be more anonymous, get a separate email account to link to your UG account from yahoo/hotmail/someother free service. Sorry, but it seem sthat this is what the majority ( as well as Allen and I ) want.

We now return to our regularly scheduled programming....

[jmcurry]

I did receive it. Responding to this takes much more reflection than I thought initially. Please bear with me. I will get back privately, but sorting out my thoughts while I am still going through my probelmatic relationship represents a difficult task. Moreover, I had to relocate today to Tampa for the next six weeks, to be involved in spring training. I will get back to you soon, privately. Again, exuse my delay. I will be back and forth between NYC and Tampa over the next month and a half, and I will contact you privately during that time.

[badz]

.

[Edited by badz on 05-23-2001 at 09:58 PM]

[Phantom]

Sorry badz, but time DOES NOT heal all wounds.

Thee is a Ray Charles's song called, "I Can't Stop Loving You" in which there is a line that goes like this,

"they say that time
heals a broken heart
but time has stood still
since we've been apart".

SO true!

[Edited by Phantom on 02-14-2001 at 08:05 PM]

[Ozzy]

time and the right person. ;)


trust me on this one.


there's also a song by Guns n Roses called used to love her


it goes....

i used to love her but i had to kill her.

she bitched so much, she drove me nuts...

and now i'm happier this waaayy.


also something about burying her in a backyard.........but you get the point.


KILL HER IN YOUR MIND.


[Edited by Ozzy on 02-14-2001 at 08:31 PM]

[Phantom]

Unfortunately, I have neither.

[badz]

.

[Edited by badz on 05-23-2001 at 09:59 PM]

[badz]

.

[Edited by badz on 05-23-2001 at 09:59 PM]

[badz]

.

[Edited by badz on 05-23-2001 at 09:59 PM]

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

Originally posted by Phantom
"they say that time
heals a broken heart
but time has stood still
since we've been apart".

[Edited by Phantom on 02-14-2001 at 08:05 PM]

I've come to believe that we latch on to certain songs cuz they give us permission to live in the past.

No matter how hard we try, nothing can re-write history. Nothing. Even reconcilliations do not re-write the past and unfortunately, so much stuff can't really be forgotten.

Phantom If you wanna live 'love sick', that's fine. Life is full of choices, and if this is the one you make for yourself, don't ask others to help you rationalize it.

I know for me and my past, I used to pick the sickest cow of the herd, mostly cuz I didn't like me very much either.

Having sex with prostitutes in hopes of boosting my self-esteem had the opposite effect. Sub-consciously, it hammers on us....'damn, I'm so low I can only have sex if I pay for it'. I've even dated druggies and alkies (no suprise there either), and when they rejected it, it hammered away as well.....'fuck, I can't even hang in there with a junkie, etc.'

Melody Beatty has written some great books. Codependant No More. and some others.

Might I suggest you pick one up and see if you can relate?

[ValerieXXX]

OK, I have recieved e-mails as well, I do hear and understand, this is a very complex situation. Yes I do agree on all fronts that you can't save someone who does not wish to be saved. I also hear loud and clear some who have said, who am I to take away a woman's control and financial freedom, I applaud that, that shows serious respect for her.
Phantom, I know your situation dear, you told me long ago, just ask yourself, because this was never mentioned. Was it your attempt to save this lady that might have in some way triggered your affection towards her? Could you have come across that way to maybe scare her off? Was she getting burnt out and you felt closer to her to protect her?
I know from experience that I have some who would love to see me through this biz. I do appreciate it, as I have grown quite stressed especially in Touring situations. They can tell (i guess every one here as well) because, they become more affectionate towards me. That is a sign of caring though I know I need to finish my obligations, they never push me. The business is wonderful and I have more control in my life but when I feel that yes I am in control, sadly at many times I am not. Family can be a deciding factor especially when times are good financially. All of a sudden, I am being pushed to my limits. Of course in all fairness to everyone's honesty, I sometime wish to be "saved"

Wow talk about laying on the sofa! I feel better already. More please! Dr Mom needs to pass perscriptions!

[Ozzy]

1eyed,

you're in the wrong field. you should have been a shrink. great post.


btw he knows what kill her in his mind is about. he ain't OJ.

[Phantom]

Val,

It was not that I wanted to save her. Since I spent so much time with her, I saw parts of her that few guys had. I fell in love with not the escort, but the woman she was/is. That last time I saw her she knew how I felt about her, but it was under control because I was just having a geat time with her. Did not want to spoil the feeling.

It all changed these two days at my shore house when she sat not two feet from me, and while looking directly at me told me the following.

We were sitting out on the porch when she says that watching the water makes her feel so relaxed. That what she has to say is difficult for her, but she usually gets what she wants. She told me that she felt very comfortable with me because she feels that we had know each other in a previous life. She tells me that she really enjoys spending time with me so much that she wants to see me outside of work. She wants to come back and spend weekends with me without me having to pay. She asked if I understood that this does not mean we are getting married and I tell he yes I understand. Since I showed her a picture of my sister earlier, I shae the house with me sister, she asks what do I think my sister would think of her when she came to visit, I told her that I did not care what my sister would say because she would be there with me, not my sister.

Now compare all with what I just told you she said to a previous time that I had seen her. A few months earlier I had seen her and one of her friends together. At one point she turns to he freind and says, "we fight and argue all the time as if we are boyfriend and girlfriend". She must have realized what she said and then added, "but we're not" and I thought nothing more of it.

The point being that she was/is a very guarded person in the things she says. And yet she told right to my face that she wanted to see me outside of work and that she wanted to comeback and spend weekends with me without me having to pay.

That first day when she told all those things I asked her about them later on in the evening. She asked what she said and I told her like I've told you here. I asked her is she meant it, she thought about it for a second and said yes.

The next night I asked her when she would like to come back and she asked what I was talking about. I told her what she had said not once but twice the previous night and she denied ever saying any such thing. I think it would have been much better if sher just pulled out a gun at that point and shot me dead.

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

Insanity = doin the same thing over and over expecting different results.

Give up already

[Slinky Bender]

"I saw parts of her that few guys had"

Must resist................

[justme]

I've had women that have slept with me tell me to my face that they never did. The behavior is weird, but I don't think it's all that uncommon. I've even come to believe that these outright denials of the truth are less about lying than they are about delusion (insert self-depricating joke about why a woman would need to delude herself about sleeping with me). Anyway, I think OETT's response sums it up fairly well. To add to the imagery...

1) Don't be surprised to find lunatics in the nut house
2) If you find yourself exclusively dealing with lunatics you may be in the nuthouse
3) If you find yourself in a nut house it's a good idea to check what kind of jacket you're wearing
4) Two crazy people have never made each other well.

[dicer5]

I don't know as much as some of you guys but some of the common theme seems to be that the women seem to tell the guys that they never this or that. Maybe, do you think this might be a part of the session thing, where the woman is trying to make the guy feel special. I am not saying this is always the case or burst anyone's bubble, but maybe that's part of the role play that women in this business naturally do.

[Geezy Muldoon]

nothing.

[Edited by Judge Crater on 07-26-2001 at 11:46 AM]

[Ozzy]

we ain't talking sessions......

[jmcurry]

Dicer, you are on the money. Role play is essential for providers. They say what we want to hear, which usually contributes to the encounter being wonderful and keeps us "coming" back for more. The only problem is, after you have seen the same individual for a long time, you get to believe the hype. Compounding the difficulty is the possibility that you might actually grow to care about that provider. Taken together, these factors can overwhelm a hobbyist (an hobbyist to GC). I have once fallen for the role play, and I am now trying to dig my way out of the baggage left in the wake of that experience. As hobbyists, we must understand that play acting is a nuanced part of our perceived experiences.

[Phantom]

And how many providers have played a role for you were they tell you that they want to see you outside of work and that they want to come back and spend weekend with you without you having to pay?

[jmcurry]

Phantom, that has happened to me three times, but none of those invitations ever came true. This gets back to a far more complex issue, which I will start discourse with you tonight.

[ValerieXXX]

Alright. Guys, no doubt, some providers ok alot play roles. I don't like that. If I am not into it, or chemistry is not right fogedaboutit!!! I like to reach a common ground, hence the chat time. It allows me to conform to YOU, by talking and connecting. It makes things that much better in the sack. That is another subject though.
Phantom, sounds to me that she led you on! You just said she likes to be in control, some people are sick that way. I mean they get off on making people jump through hoops. I know someone like that (bygones) Some can't be saved from themselves!!!!!!!!!
I have experienced many things and when I needed to be "saved" it is generally after a very hectic tour. I have since made the connection (hey I cured myself!!!.....lol) after starting this thread. I realise that things must change and many are right on this subject, I have the power to make this professsion anything I want it to be so why get myself to the point that it is no longer fun. What is your take?

[Phantom]

Val,

There is only one thing about this that I'm absolutely sure about. And that is that there is only one person who knows for sure what happened and why she did what she did, but unfortunately she has decided to hide behind emails and not answer any questions.

[nj george]

but it wasn't true love. we met a year and a half ago and clicked right away on a personal level. she told me me things about how she felt about me that no one had ever said about me...ever. how i was her favorite, her most special of all her special friends, how much she treasured our relationship that no one could ever hope to duplicate. for a while i wasn't sure if it was bs or not. not sure if these things she was saying to me were sincere or "paid for" whether or not she may be leading me on just to cultivate a regular client. but as i got to know her better i realized that she had a heart of gold and either meant what she said or got off on maliciously messing with my head. but there was always a small part of me that had doubt because for every nice thing she would say to me there would be 1-2 gestures thet would indicate, on the surface, otherwise. to further complicate things, we were both married. i always knew that i could never pursue a romantic relationship with her, but i just wanted to be her friend...a true friend. i had all these emotions crashing around in my head and had absolutely no control over them. the past year of my life was at times a living hell. things would either be very good or VERY VERY painful. i no longer have those feelings for her as things have happened that enabled me to get over her so to speak. but i still have very warm loving feelings towards her.and now, due to circumstances beyond my control, sadly there is a very very good chance that we will never see each other again. we still keep in touch via phone and e-mail but it is not the same. for a while i felt that i had wasted the last year of my life, pursuing a friendship that was on the verge of becoming something truely remarkable(you wouldn't believe our plans) only to have it snatched away by these circumstances. but on the other hand i learned alot about myself and what i actually felt and alot about her and what she felt. i realized that i did not need her because i loved her, but i loved her because i needed her. a big difference. not a true love at all. we shared some very special moments together, none of them sexual in nature but all of them very tender and loving. but as close as we got during those moments it never came close to the point of me considering leaving my family. i have told her this but i doubt she believes me. but after one very very special dance that we shared she could have looked at me with those beautiful eyes of hers and said "sweetie, i have $$$$$$$ in the bank, let's leave our families and run away to cancun and i will make you the happiest man on earth" and i swear i would have said thanks but no thanks. she would never admit it to me because she really does care for me and my marriage and i sincerely appreciate that, , but i know in my heart that during those special times she felt special feelings in her heart for me also. feelings that were above the kind that one would feel for a friend.
this is just the nutshell version of my story i could go on for hours here. anyway, like i saidwhile i am "over" her and have moved on, i still have warm feelings for her. we have pissed each other off royally, and we have brought each other to the brink off tears but we both have some very special memories of our times together. now if only there was some way we could get to see each other again:(((((
what does this have to do with "saving" a provider? nothing at all i never had any delusions of saving her even though i knew the job was killing her inside. it was/is painful for me to watch her deteriorate before my very eyes. if i could move heaven and earth to somehow save her i would....but i can't. one, because i am married and two, because she would never allow me to save her. the only one who can save her is.........herself .
sorry for going a bit off topic, but i just saw an opportunity to vent. perhaps by some freak chance she will see this and understand how i feel. and please excuse any grammatical, spelling, or composition errors. it's 2 in the morning, i'm exhausted and i'm going to bed.......good night all

[ValerieXXX]

I got it Georgie. Those are still special times. :0)