"19 pregnant and sexy" AND the other CL PRegnant girl

[brestman]

When I see outcalls to houses only in an ad my mind goes directly to this is a scam, shes trying to get over somehow. Well after more than a week of trying to get this girl to come out to a short stay I finally convinced her.
She was no scamster, shes just being very careful and safe. She said that before she was pregnant she would get up to $500 for a call, and I almost believe her. She is preety hot and incredibly sexy for about 4 months or so preg. Shes about 5'7 dark hair light skin italian/spanish mix. Very nice face big puffy lips, tight body, the breasts although fairly small are perfectly shaped and appear to just be starting to swell. She seemed bright level headed and appeared preety clean (unlike the other CL preg girl). Its almost like one of those girls that somebody comes along and snatches out of the biz, except shes pregnant now so not too many takers. Its funny all her regular clients want no part of the pregnant thing (probably all normal men)
But post your pregant and out of the woodwork comes all these deviants (like me).
Anyway $150 for half hour, $$ for the hour, she allows very light kissing if you look clean ( I guess I past, YMMV)
very good CBJ where she takes in a more than the obligatory mouthfull but its definately not DT. She never takes her eyes off you as shes sucking which I found great. She has a nicely groomed strip for touching and CFS is available too . And the best thing is she was a former massage girl so her hj is much better than the Asian R&T's, or maybe it seemed that way to me as she was far more pleasant to look at than those 30-40 yr old Chinese ladys from HK.

Downside, unlike the other CL pregnant girl no hard tittie touching which she let me know up front and even though I am a breastman I had no problem with. They look like they were way to small to be blowing up with milk so they must really hurt her. Good luck getting an appointment if you don't have a home or apt to bring her. I don't blame her this poor girl was using her real name with me(it inadvertently came with her *mail, I told her if shes smart she will change her addy fast before she replies to anyone else. This ones worth it. She also said she only posts once a month or so and has a time of it to weed out a lot of crazys, I guess the providers jobs on CL are just as tough as ours.

Pregnant girl #2 on CL on the other hand (anna "Nicole")posts about 5 times a day, every day. She is truly only 18 and confused. Shes living from sleazebag motel to room back to sleazebag hotel supporting her boyfriend(pimp) who is definately mentally abusing her. She is OK looking and in fact looks better in person than the pics she just started posting. Everything is available, although I would reccomend everything covered and NO kissing. The upside is she will let you milk her breasts for what seems to be a lot of creamy milk, rare to get so much from a pregnant girl thats still a couple of months away from delivery.

[nycjohn25]

Someone stated that one of the pregnant girls on CL has genital warts? Is that true?

[RoosterC74]

Let me state this upfront, I do not know this girl. However, here we go again! Do you believe everything you read on Craigs List? If so, I have some property to sell you.

[OrangeAid]

...I would reccomend everything covered and NO kissing. The upside is she will let you milk her breasts for what seems to be a lot of creamy milk...

I can't help pointing out the apparent contradiction between these statements.

[brestman]

The 19 yr old pregnant girl is completely clean and smooth, her body is in excellent shape. I always leave the lights on and always pay careful visual attention to a girls mouth and face as well as the rest of her in looking for sores, pimples, bumps, scratches or track marks.

The girl that was previously alleged to have genital warts whether true or not is the 18 yr old pregnant girl, (Anna,Nicole). I cant deny or confirm because I have never allowed her to take her pants off in my sessions. Its CBJ only and the milking, the milk is never tasted, simply expressed to flow. I cant see the contradiction in advising people to stay covered with her, as she did offer to bbj but I declined.

[OrangeAid]

the milk is never tasted

My mistake - false assumption at work.

[nycjohn25]

Do you guys think its alright to have FS sex with a girl 7 months pregnant? Wouldn't that hurt the baby?

[fumpton]

Do you guys think its alright to have FS sex with a girl 7 months pregnant? Wouldn't that hurt the baby?

as long as you're not BillF, the baby should be okay. Some doctors recommend sex if the baby is overdue to help induce labor.


There's another CL girl who posts she just had her baby and milk service is available. But she posts multiple posts per day and each with a different message. Same pic in all the posts though.

[nycjohn25]

what happens if you have fs and she has contactions?

[Bigd18]

what happens if you have fs and she has contactions?


Because you are going to help deliver her baby

[Dobbsy]

Well not to rain on anyone's parade but it is possible to contract aids from breastfeeding so be careful!

[neilz]

Well not to rain on anyone's parade but it is possible to contract aids from breastfeeding so be careful!
Don't swallow. I would be more concerned about DATY than getting some breastmilk in my mouth.

[azzure]

Someone stated that one of the pregnant girls on CL has genital warts? Is that true?

Yes she does

[RoosterC74]

And we heard it from__________? Or did you do the exam yourself?

[brestman]

I saw a real funny post RE Anna Nicole the 18 year old pregnant. As I said she usually posts 5 or more times a day, some of them real funny like one was "Special 3 hours for $500". This poster appeared to have some insight on her history:

"UH... Yeah Right, Anna. Whatever you say...

This was the same girl working out of East New York and Bushwick last year pulling unprotected trains for the locals for $40 a pop. I don't know if she has anything, you crunch the numbers. Now that one of the locals knocked her up, she's charging 5 times the price for her batcave? What is her fetus giving me head? "

[SlickWilly]

Do you guys think its alright to have FS sex with a girl 7 months pregnant? Wouldn't that hurt the baby?

Once I picked up a BSW on 11th Avenue on the West Side. She had a great ass and was wearing this sexy white outfit. We get to the hotel and she takes off her clothes. She's wearing this elastic thing to keep her belly in. I find out she's about 8 months pregnant. I decide to fuck her anyway and we do it cowgirl. Very weird fucking a woman that close to giving birth.

[Tony Pepperoni]

Don't swallow. I would be more concerned about DATY than getting some breastmilk in my mouth.

One would be far more likely to contract HIV from breast milk than from DATY. Be safe out there fellas.

[billyS]

I fucked Ivy of Cherry Valley through out her pregnecy. At 8 months I did her doggie and she was the tightest I ever had her. I fucked her before and after and the best fuck was when she was 8 months. She never really got fat, just her belly got big and her tits swelled up alittle.

[curious]

Welcome back, man! We don't travel in the same circles or anything, but I nearly always found your posts interesting (if sometimes provocative), informative, and no-nonsense. Good to see that you've been allowed to return from exile.

[billyS]

Welcome back, man! We don't travel in the same circles or anything, but I nearly always found your posts interesting (if sometimes provocative), informative, and no-nonsense. Good to see that you've been allowed to return from exile.
Thanks.

[brestman]

Yea whats up Billy, its always welcome to read your sometimes over the top stuff, thanks for the original Ivy tip that started me in this place.

So theres this new pregnant posting on CL and the pic looks like its Aunt Jamima's fat young sister,really bad, and although I'm OK for WOC time to time I hate fatties, but for $ I figured let me at least look. So I went through this maze of an apt in the 30's near 3rd, where you enter on one street go out the back through the yard and over to the actual apartment which is on another street. This really zombied loking blonde chick well into her 40's lets me in, she's fairly thin with this huge natural rack but her face needs some work so she tells me to wait a minute

So how surprised was I when instead of Aunt Jemima in comes a nice looking young PR girl maybe 21-22 with an actual nice pregnant body with natural 38ddd plus, not skinny and toned (like the 19 year old pregnant previously reviewd) but in good shape considering the pregnancy and the size of those tits. She gives a cbj w/ no kissing. Now the girl, I think she said her name was Jenny is a nice looking girl but did she have to put all those distracting tats on her body. Like whats up with an 18" tat on your shoulder of a girl in a bikini? Like what were you thinking when the tat-man was doing this? How about Asian lettering on your boob, whats the story with that? Anyway she is a nice girl and tries to please complete with moaning noises while shes HJ, not over the top just suttle.

I didn't like the room no attempt was made to change the sheet and it looks like it may have been there all day, so sorry to the next guy if some of my load spilled off her big brown nipple onto to the bed. I tried real hard to get milk out of that nipple(cause the other one is inhibited by a piercing) but no go and after she winced twice from the intense pressure I was applying I apologized and said I was trying to get the milk as she was advertised as lactating. Then she told the big fib that "there must be no more cause it shot out before". Lie,Lie, lie, pregnat milk doesent shoot, it oozes, shes not lactating yet.
Besides all the negatives I recomend this girl as she is nice for the price.
On my way out I gave the blonde $5 to see and feel her old tit for a second. Nice big natural rack and nice nips. I think they give you a second girl for 50 more as that was offered to me before my session. There was a 3rd girl a decent Indian looking black girl smoking a cigar.

[michel]

but what is the attraction of fucking a preggo? What am I missing? It seems like on deviance that has passed me by...can anyone enlighten a confused pervert?

[HueG.rection]

Is this her or is this a different girl and worth a shot?

http://newyork.craigslist.org/jsy/ers/85524609.html

[Bigd18]

Is this her or is this a different girl and worth a shot?

http://newyork.craigslist.org/jsy/ers/85524609.html


Why would you want to do a prego? Go screw that 42yr Milf and forget this one

[HueG.rection]

was hoping it was the 42y/o milf's daughter and maybe get 3 generations all in one shot.....LOL

just looking at all..........gonna hit that milf tonight and tell you all about it.

[michel]

...is subconsciously it trying to return to the womb that you're after? I don't get it...How do ya feel about a girl who's no longer pregnant but has the
ugliest fucking C-scars in the world? I can steer ya toward some of that?

[brestman]

If she was recently pregnant than she may be milking, so go ahead and steer me to her. As funny or strange as it may sound, you know the fetish about getting BJ's from pregnant girls with milk filled titties, to some out there with the silly questions,including the breastmilk-HIV connection awareness that comes out in every thread, just imagine how some of us feel when we read about some of the silly sods out there that DATY.

First of they are hookers that screw a multitude of men why someone would want to put that pussy in their mouth and lick and suck that blood filled thing is beyond me. Common sense says the chance for catching any kind of disease increases exponentially with that kind of activity.

To answer the question about the new 19 yr old preggo, I dont think its the one I reviewd at the begining of this thread as there was barely titty-touching allowed with her but this new one is advertising herself as lactating.
I do have a call out to her that has not been returned so as soon as I know something Ill advise
Good Luck

[Dvaenport]

I did the breast milk thing once (and they can make it squirt out) and I couldn't believe how incredibly nasty it tastes!

Hey, but that's just my opinion -Dport

[michel]

If your member extends to a length of 6.5 inches or longer, repeated thrusting into a woman during pregnancy can result in the birth of a child with a cleft
chin. Deep anal during this sensitive gestation period has been known to cause anal-fixation and "bottom"-oriented homosexuality in children born
to women engaging in this behavior.

[flabbergasted]

Michel, and president Bush is a real smart man!

[michel]

Michel, and president Bush is a real smart man!

Cuzoon, old pal!

[brestman]

Dont be stupid like me and see this girl at a storefront next to the police precinct on 20th street. Once your set she will hold you up for a total of $200 for a HJ with her having GLOVES on. She is a young decent looker (not the one in any of the pics they post) but I still cant justify this.

[jed253]

Sorry you got shafted. That number is shared by another pregnant girl named Cathy..Hmmmm

[michel]

Dont be stupid like me and see this girl at a storefront next to the police precinct on 20th street. Once your set she will hold you up for a total of $200 for a HJ with her having GLOVES on. She is a young decent looker (not the one in any of the pics they post) but I still cant justify this.

...gloves on? If she has cuts on her hands- she should simply stop giving
anybody anything, for chrissake. This gloves on shit is insulting to you
and your cock.
Even the cops next door woulda let ya slide on this...@ $200, you're
paying $20.00 per finger, for God's sake...

[lovecubby]

I had met up with Anna, Nicole about a month ago and we agreed on incall. As I drove to her place, she made excuses about being unable to host and suggested a cheap hourly hotel (ended up costing me $55). We had also agreed on $350 for multiple pops, bbbj, and greek. Once we entered the room and took care of financial matters I started rubbing and sucking on her breasts (don't think they were lactating) and was on my way down for some DATY when she informed me she doesn't allow DATY or being fingered. She started with a decent bbbj and then slipped on the cover for some cowgirl. I mentioned that I wanted to switch to greek and she said that would only be available in the future. So we contined with cowgirl and finished round one. She then started talking about her boyfriend who's locked up for a few months because he accidently hit a cop during a fight and how she needed lots of money. I mentioned that I wanted another round when she said but there's only 10 minutes left. She decided to give me a bbbj and have me tug off on her breasts to finish quickly. I was abit annoyed on paying for the motel, paying for the greek that I never got, and wasting time listening to her story and realizing too late she was a clock watcher.

[michel]

I had met up with Anna, Nicole about a month ago and we agreed on incall. As I drove to her place, she made excuses about being unable to host and suggested a cheap hourly hotel (ended up costing me $55). We had also agreed on $350 for multiple pops, bbbj, and greek. Once we entered the room and took care of financial matters I started rubbing and sucking on her breasts (don't think they were lactating) and was on my way down for some DATY when she informed me she doesn't allow DATY or being fingered. She started with a decent bbbj and then slipped on the cover for some cowgirl. I mentioned that I wanted to switch to greek and she said that would only be available in the future. So we contined with cowgirl and finished round one. She then started talking about her boyfriend who's locked up for a few months because he accidently hit a cop during a fight and how she needed lots of money. I mentioned that I wanted another round when she said but there's only 10 minutes left. She decided to give me a bbbj and have me tug off on her breasts to finish quickly. I was abit annoyed on paying for the motel, paying for the greek that I never got, and wasting time listening to her story and realizing too late she was a clock watcher.

....maybe this shoulda gone in the "We're getting fucked" thread.

[azzure]

I'll say it again. Anna, the 19 year old blonde, has the worst case of HPV (genital warts) I have ever seen. Her pussy is LINED with large bumps, like very rough sandpaper. Her pubic area, ass, everywhere, is COVERED with them.

Warts that out of control could be indicative of greater problems.

[michel]

I'll say it again. Anna, the 19 year old blonde, has the worst case of HPV (genital warts) I have ever seen. Her pussy is LINED with large bumps, like very rough sandpaper. Her pubic area, ass, everywhere, is COVERED with them.
Warts that out of control could be indicative of greater problems.

..otherwise, I would have just lost it...

[nycjohn25]

Anyone see the new pregnant girls on CL? There are a bunch of numbers now with women saying they are pregnant :)

[michel]

Anyone see the new pregnant girls on CL? There are a bunch of numbers now with women saying they are pregnant :)

...maybe CL is running a "Labor Day" special on these chicks...

[retired]

I'll say it again. Anna, the 19 year old blonde, has the worst case of HPV (genital warts) I have ever seen. Her pussy is LINED with large bumps, like very rough sandpaper. Her pubic area, ass, everywhere, is COVERED with them.sounds like you had pretty intimate contact with anna... are you still requesting bbfs in sessions?

[azzure]

Me? never! What makes you think I request it at all?

I did a visual inspection, even touched her in the general area with my finger tips, and then ran and washed my hands! At this late point in my hobbying carreer, however, I assume its possible I'm an asymptomatic carrier of HPV given its prevalence, contagiousness, and the amount of contacts I've had (covered or not). There is no test for it. You just have to watch for symptoms (warts). I'm told many people never develop symptoms.

[Slinky Bender]

There is no test for it.

I believe this statement is inaccurate.

[michel]

I'll say it again. Anna, the 19 year old blonde, has the worst case of HPV (genital warts) I have ever seen. Her pussy is LINED with large bumps, like very rough sandpaper. Her pubic area, ass, everywhere, is COVERED with them.Warts that out of control could be indicative of greater problems.

and sneaked a photo:

http://www.telescope.org/nuffield_21_sci/moonlayers/images/ptole.JPG

stop her before she takes in another one of us!!

[azzure]

I believe this statement is inaccurate.


If so, I need a new doctor.

[retired]

At this late point in my hobbying carreer...I assume its possible I'm an asymptomatic carrier of HPV...you didn't mention this to me when you requested bbfs during a session.

[azzure]

I presume smart whores assume its a given for any active monger. What was I supposed to say anyway, "ok, you should know before we begin, I've been with other whores."

Besides, whores don't count. They assume the risk.

Anyway, as far as I know, there is only one whore in the world that can connect azzure to a face. So either your joking or I know who you are! (and I didn't request BBFS from you as I recall)

[michel]

...Besides, whores don't count. ...

they usually count, check the serial numbers and call the Federal
reserve to confirm when I pay 'em....

[retired]

michel is joking. i am not.

[azzure]

I hope you realize I was joking retired.

I enjoyed hurting you, but hope I didn't hurt your feelings with this comment.

[retired]

my feelings are irrelevant. my point isn't.

[Slinky Bender]

my feelings are irrelevant.

Uh, oh.

We agree on something.

[retired]

i love it when you talk down to me ;)

[Slinky Bender]

I love it when you're down there to be talked to.

[azzure]

i love it when you talk down to me ;)

Yeah right. What you really like is topping from the bottom.

I tried to summon you several times after the first and you ignored me.

What, too vanilla?

[retired]

I tried to summon you several times after the first and you ignored me.you won't find anyone who saw me a second time after requesting bbfs the first time.

[azzure]

No big deal, just use the safe word next time: "cover"

(although I don't remember asking)

[retired]

Anna, the 19 year old blonde, has the worst case of HPV (genital warts) I have ever seen. Her pussy is LINED with large bumps, like very rough sandpaper. Her pubic area, ass, everywhere, is COVERED with them.just use the safe word next time you see her: "cover".

[Thorn]

just use the safe word next time you see her: "cover".

You know, and I mean no offense, but just pointing out something I have noticed: You have an awful lot of "critque" in you for someone whose house has as much glass in it as anyone else here.

[azzure]

just use the safe word next time you see her: "cover".

That wouldn't cover it.

[retired]

thorn,

i am not offended... but i'm not sure i have an unusual amount of critique in me either. and there are certain things that probably should be critiqued, especially when they are dangerous with serious consequences IRL.

it sounds like azzure thought anna's pussy should be critiqued. i thought azzure's bb sexual practices should be critiqued. neither one of us was speaking abstractly; each of us had experienced a first-hand concern. i think we each made our critique out of concern for the safety of the community, which is not a bad thing, thorn.

(now, if you are considering to my earlier response to your attempt to stick an unwelcome vibrator up my ass in the VIP as "an awful lot of critique"... well, you are no rhinocerous at all! your vibrator antic was entertaining tale deserving of an appreciative audience.)

[Casper]

I'd rather hear about the prego CL chicks and the mongers who've boffed them.

[retired]

thanks for steering things back on track casper. yes, lets hear more about how it feels to finger-fuck the teen preggo's vaginal warts... and for cheap! it even gives me an erection.

[Casper]

Oh come now. There must be prego CL chicks w/o vaginal warts.

[Slinky Bender]

an unwelcome vibrator

Sounds like a title of some kind. I'm trying to imagine what story would go with it.

[azzure]

i thought azzure's bb sexual practices should be critiqued.

correction: ATTEMPT at sexual practice (what makes you think practice is plural?

You trying to ruin my pristine rep

[Ozzy]

azzure's bb sexual practices shouldn't be critiqued because no one here is paying to fuck him.

If there's a place for that it's on one of those provider only sites.




We're starting to get into HVB territory here (and sound just like her) if someone who’s neither a consumer nor retailer is going to start passing judgment on the practices of tricks.

[neilz]

[QUOTE i think we each made our critique out of concern for the safety of the community, which is not a bad thing, thorn. [/QUOTE]
The mongering community knows their risk.

[retired]

...if someone who’s neither a consumer nor retailer is going to start passing judgment on the practices of tricks.did you miss the part where azzure paid me for sex? seems like i have much more information about his practices to "pass judgement" than, well, you.

listen, i knew that my comments would not be generally welcome when i went down this road. i made a point of limiting my comments to one issue which had directly affected me. i also did not post (or even suggest) any information about azzure that he himself has not posted about repeatedly (and with seeming pride) on this very board.

after reading azzures description of his experience with anna, my stomach flipped and i felt an obligation to respond. "this is a board dedicated to the discussion of topics relating to escorts and the commercial sex industry and is a mixed board, representing both the client and provider constituencies." ... who the fuck is representing anna? and the future anna's? real people get real hurt in this 'hobby', and sometimes it bothers me more than others.

[Thorn]

it sounds like azzure thought anna's pussy should be critiqued. i thought azzure's bb sexual practices should be critiqued. neither one of us was speaking abstractly; each of us had experienced a first-hand concern. i think we each made our critique out of concern for the safety of the community, which is not a bad thing, thorn.

It sounded, to me, like there might have been a bit more to it than that. However, with the clarification provided above I yield to the well founded point.

(now, if you are considering to my earlier response to your attempt to stick an unwelcome vibrator up my ass in the VIP as "an awful lot of critique"... well, you are no rhinocerous at all! your vibrator antic was entertaining tale deserving of an appreciative audience.)

And I didn't see it any other way than that. You have to know that if I had something to say in that regard on the issue I would have done so immediately. It isn't like me to leave my thoughts dangling, unspoken, in the ether.

As always, etc and so forth...

[Thorn]

Sounds like a title of some kind. I'm trying to imagine what story would go with it.

Written. Read for typos. Filed under "way too mundane to publish".

To make it even remotely interesting would require a re-write by an author more talanted than the two who collaborated on its conception.

Neil Simon, it wasn't.

[Slinky Bender]

i also did not post (or even suggest) any information about azzure that he himself has not posted about repeatedly (and with seeming pride) on this very board. .

I don't remember this. Anyone have references/citations to look at?

[Slinky Bender]

The mongering community knows their risk.

I strongly disagree with this.

[Slinky Bender]

azzure's bb sexual practices shouldn't be critiqued because no one here is paying to fuck him..

I don't think I agree with this. Putting azzure aside and going to a hypothetical (actually not even hypothetical, past history):

Let's say there was a house where the girls were known to do some sorts of BB activities of various sorts. Let's say some guy was a regular there. Let's say some other guys who were regulars there were doing all sorts of BB activites with streetwalkers from known "junkie strolls". Don't you think that "guy one" would want to know about it, and perhaps would alter his behaviour (or stop going to the incall which they both freqented altogether)??

Let's say there's a girl at an upscale house that a guy goes to. Let's say someone finds out ( a working girl) that the guy who she sees all the time is an IV drug user. Wouldn't a lot of people want to know about that?

Let's say a guy forms a "club" where he has girls who are "non pros" who he tells he's going to photograph, and that it will be "all BB", but in reality it's just a group of Johns who want BBFS and it's being used as a ruse to get girls to do it with them? *

I could go on, but the point is that not only is there reason to talk about habits of both sides, but it's been done before.



* This not only isn't a hypothetical, but there was plenty of discussion, including a bunch right here (one example http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2652 ).

[retired]

I don't remember this. Anyone have references/citations to look at?search azzure & bbfs...as i did before i made my related posts. its right there in b & w. (you know that! or are you just calling attention to the obvious...)

[Casper]

I'd rather hear about the prego CL chicks and the mongers who've boffed them.

I'm going to ditto myself ;)

[retired]

I'd rather hear about the prego CL chicks and the mongers who've boffed them.hey - you are hearing a whole lot about one monger who's boffed them... not good enough? ;)

[Casper]

hey - you are hearing a whole lot about one monger who's boffed them... not good enough? ;)

I'm insatiable.

In the midnight hour she cried more, more, more

[azzure]

search azzure & bbfs...as i did before i made my related posts. its right there in b & w. (you know that! or are you just calling attention to the obvious...)

Which board is it that your searching?

I don't recall mentioning doing BBFS other than in Japan. (where the girls are cleaner than the skanky pros here, yourself excepted, of course) I might have posted in discussions about it, but never gloating with pride. Anyway, where would that get me? You won't even see me again!

I understand your point though, about the pot calling the kettle black. But you don't know the whole story.

[azzure]

b/t/w Retired, since your disclosing info about customer sessions why not give UG readers here a complete TER style review so providers can make a fully informed decision about booking me.

[retired]

azzure, you already said this (http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=67721&postcount=56), this (http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=72426&postcount=1), this (http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=225747&postcount=33), this (http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=294968&postcount=76), this (http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=316979&postcount=58), this (http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=316997&postcount=62), and this (http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=428017&postcount=10).

i did not "disclose" anything you have not repeatedly said yourself. as for a review of our session... it would be entertaining, but useless, since it is highly unlikely that any of the ladies you target read UG. (plus, slinky might ban me for trying to steal advertising!)

[retired]

also, as you pointed out azzure, none of your targets know that you are "azzure". you are well insulated... they are not.

[azzure]

Only a single one of those links mentions me doing BBFS. (CL massage girl)
Three and a half years of activity and posting on this Board and you find one instance of BBFS, not even with a provider, but an unplanned spontaneous encounter with a masage girl who, as the post describes, I booked for a masage (rather than FS) because I was trying to retire at that time.

Yet you try and paint me as some kind of evil stealth BBFS'er "targeting" innocent "[un]insulated girls."

[azzure]

The irony of all this retired, is that if you really wanted to be the spokesperson and savior for the voiceless CL providers, you would be more intent than I that Anna not work. Trust me on that.

[moneyshotsnj]

azzure, you already said this (http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=67721&postcount=56), this (http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=72426&postcount=1), this (http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=225747&postcount=33), this (http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=294968&postcount=76), this (http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=316979&postcount=58), this (http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=316997&postcount=62), and this (http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=428017&postcount=10).

i did not "disclose" anything you have not repeatedly said yourself. as for a review of our session... it would be entertaining, but useless, since it is highly unlikely that any of the ladies you target read UG. (plus, slinky might ban me for trying to steal advertising!)

Game, Set, Match: Retired

[azzure]

I call for a mistrial - you obviously ignored the "evidence" she posted $shot!

what is this kiss-up'er nullification?

[Ozzy]

Makes no difference if he paid you. Wanna see how fast reviews stop getting posted if ho's start answering back to every review they don't like by critiquing their reviewer.


What happens when it's BMM or someone else who reports a girl with warts on her ass... Does retired then decide to attack him for speaking the truth?


If retired is going to attack posters who negatively review utr's, cl girls or ho's that don't participate on whore boards because as she says.... "who the fuck is representing ...... ?".


Well then its game, set, match for UG.

[Slinky Bender]

You're setting up a straw man to knock down. She's NOT critcising reviews because they are "bad reviews". She is criticising what she deems as extremely risky behaviour. Now, I'm not saying that there aren't all sorts of degrees of risk... and we all know what's comming next....... (insert standard slinky remark about driving on the highway). So who's to say where the line is... but just because no one has the last word on where the line is, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be discussed, or that there isn't ANY behaviour which a lot of poeple wouldn't think is over that line.

The day we don't allow people to discuss real issues because they make some posters feel uncomfortable is the days it's "game, set, match for UG".

[Slinky Bender]

Which board is it that your searching?.

Which one do you think?

[Ozzy]

after reading azzures description of his experience with anna, my stomach flipped and i felt an obligation to respond. "this is a board dedicated to the discussion of topics relating to escorts and the commercial sex industry and is a mixed board, representing both the client and provider constituencies." ... who the fuck is representing anna? and the future anna's? real people get real hurt in this 'hobby', and sometimes it bothers me more than others.


From this post it seems like she's taking umbrage with his review of Anna.... not his unsafe practices which I think (right or wrong) she's just using as a weapon.

All I saw in his post/review of Anna was a description of her condition. I don't see how his practices with a thousand other women has anything to do with what he said about Anna. Unless someone wants to imply he practiced unsafe sex with her and thus he's now made himself as much as issue as he's made of Anna.

[Slinky Bender]

I don't see how his practices with a thousand other women has anything to do with what he said about Anna. .

I think this is all that needs to be said.

[azzure]

I assure you - there havn't been a thousand others.

[Slinky Bender]

I don't think that's really the point.

[Ozzy]

If she had come here months ago and reported azzure practices unsafe sex with working girls based on her experience with him, then this wouldn't be an issue.

But to bring that up now that she's retired and because he wrote something she didn't like... which had nothing to do with the issue she's bitching about shows her intent... and it's not so noble. Just like she brings up thorns attempt at shoving a dildo up her ass when she doesn't like something he says. maybe he should have shoved it in a more welcoming hole.


So anyone who fucked her before she became "retired" better think twice before posting something here that might flip her stomach least she starts posting tidbits about your sexual practices.

[Ozzy]

And I didn't mean to imply azzure has had unsafe sex with thousands.. .I meant his numerous mongering experiences.

[Slinky Bender]

I think it's pretty clear that she's been stewing on this for quite a while, and it's just now that it's come out. I don't think you can put time limits on people's ability to talk about behaviour which they think is risky. I do think that she could/should have picked a different place for it, but the value of a lot of the discussions on ALL PMB's rarely is congruent with the placement.

[retired]

first of all i want to thank you guys for thinking about the issues instead of booing me off the board.

1) how did i get from point 'a' (azzures post about anna) to point 'b' (calling attention to his unsafe practices)? to begin with, the session i had with azzure about a year ago left me with a deep concern about his safeness in the community. when i read his words about anna in particular (shes an unwell kid about to have a baby for christ's sake) my concern boiled over and i felt compelled to call attention to his dangerousness. (i'm not saying the man gave anna the warts - i am saying that her condition is a glaring example of the possible outcome of his behavior.) my responding post was to say "have you woken up yet?"

2) why didn't i say something earlier, before i retired? imagine i had hopped on to UG shortly after that session a year ago and said (as ozzy suggests) "hey! based on my experience with him, i know azzure practices unsafe sex with working girls!" ... i was afraid that a) there might be some retaliation against me as a sex worker, and b) it wouldn't make any fucking difference.

i apologize if this was not the place to say what i said... but where else is there? where can girls warn the community if they encounter someone unsafe? in any other venue i would have to disclose his real name in order to identify him... at least in this venue i can call "azzure" on his behavior, and not [insert real name here].

[Casper]

If we are not going to talk about prego CL chicks, and since I've never boffed retired (that we know of) then I'm available to shove a dildo up retired ass. Free of charge of course.

I'd welcome being review afterwards.

[Ozzy]

to begin with, the session i had with azzure about a year ago left me with a deep concern about his safeness in the community.


There;s more to this than you're saying..... One meeting with a guy who may have requested bbfs and for that you have "a deep concern about his safeness in the community".... What the fuck?

I bet half the people on this board have had or requested bbfs with a prostitute at some point. I'd bet 9 out of 10 prostitutes have engaged in that practice.... SO do all of them show you a deep concern about the safeness in the community as azzure does.

[Casper]

If we are not going to talk about prego CL chicks, and since I've never boffed retired (that we know of) then I'm available to shove a dildo up retired ass. Free of charge of course.

I'd welcome being review afterwards.

Almost forgot being that she's so safety conscious. I promise to put a condom on that dildo before insertion into said butt.

[retired]

There;s more to this than you're saying.....What the fuck?now you are asking me to "post tidbits". i made my point with the information already posted by the guy on the board - i am not going further.

[Ozzy]

I'm not asking you to post tidbits... and any more personal tidbits you drop on this public board might just get you tossed again. You'd also be setting a horrible pres****t if you start posting what went on between you and a client when that client has never posted a review of you on this (a public) board.


You were a submissive in this biz. So I'm sure you've met lots of freaks far worse than azzure, freaks who have requested and participated (with and without you) in far worse things than azzure requested.


I find it hard to believe that you're stomach would flip over anything so common as bbfs with all you've seen and heard in this business. I mean guys are pissing on girls out there and doing shit even I've never heard of. And you, a hard core ex hooker/sub is this outraged over a request for bbfs.

[retired]

I'm sure you've met lots of freaks far worse than azzure, freaks who have requested and participated (with and without you) in far worse things than azzure requested.this quote had me roaring with laughter! "freaks far worse than azzure"! but really, you have no way of knowing what any guy requests... what you know is what he said he requested. i don't know if azzure lied to you - i'm just making a point.

that said, this thread has gone waaaaaaaaaaaaaay off track, due to a comment that i made that was intended for azzure. i get the feeling you are fishing for information, but i don't know what it is you are getting at. (whatever it is, i doubt it belongs on this board.) and with that... i think i have said all i can say on this matter. :eek: *gasp*

[Slinky Bender]

If we are not going to talk about prego CL chicks, and since I've never boffed retired (that we know of) then I'm available to shove a dildo up retired ass. Free of charge of course.
.

I'm not sure I follow the logic pattern here.

Perhaps that means you two are perfect for eachother?

[Slinky Bender]

There;s more to this than you're saying..... .

Really? You think so? Is there anyone who thinks that anyone in this thread is saying what they really mean (http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?p=55199&highlight=viscous#post55199) and telling the whole story?

[Casper]

I'm not sure I follow the logic pattern here.

Perhaps that means you two are perfect for eachother?

All I know is that this tread was about (boffing) prego CL chicks. Then it went on a tangent as threads are often prone to do. I read about a dildo to ass play attempt and well that kinda got me thinking.

Hey I was more bored than usual I guess but I'm up for almost anything these days.

[Slinky Bender]

I'm not sure I get the big deal from either end (hahaha) about shoving a piece of plastic up someone's ass.

[Casper]

I'm not sure I get the big deal from either end (hahaha) about shoving a piece of plastic up someone's ass.

Just something different to do. Plus I get a bit lazy sometimes.

Now when the hell we gonna talk about the prego CL chicks? (w/o vag warts)

[Thorn]

Makes no difference if he paid you. Wanna see how fast reviews stop getting posted if ho's start answering back to every review they don't like by critiquing their reviewer.

You mean publicly posted.

What would happen if providers started becoming problematic in consumers posting reviews of the services [sorry if that sounds cold, I realize there is a human element and don't belittle that fact, but we are talking commodity here when reduced to the basic elements, service provider-client/sale] they are purchasing is that said reviews would go underground. Back the the old mail-server days and unpubed websites.

Which, BTW, is precisely what the providers are doing now.

I keep other's business to myself but if you knew the amount of information that was being passed around about you guys behind closed doors you would not feel very comfortable about getting close to these women and talking about your personal information and private business with them. [I've seen. I know.]

[Casper]

You mean publicly posted.

What would happen if providers started becoming problematic in consumers posting reviews of the services [sorry if that sounds cold, I realize there is a human element and don't belittle that fact, but we are talking commodity here when reduced to the basic elements, service provider-client/sale] they are purchasing is that said reviews would go underground. Back the the old mail-server days and unpubed websites.

Which, BTW, is precisely what the providers are doing now.

I keep other's business to myself but if you knew the amount of information that was being passed around about you guys behind closed doors you would not feel very comfortable about getting close to these women and talking about your personal information and private business with them. [I've seen. I know.]

I hope you've heard nothing but good things about me ;)

[Slinky Bender]

unpubed websites.

Should this be in the "shaving" thread?

[Thorn]

first of all i want to thank you guys for thinking about the issues instead of booing me off the board.

Only right that it should be that way. But to that very end...

1) (i'm not saying the man gave anna the warts - i am saying that her condition is a glaring example of the possible outcome of his behavior.) my responding post was to say "have you woken up yet?"

You were discussing a generality using a specific, instead of a general, example. Not only that, your specific was based on personal client/provider information. Bad form, really.

Azzures posts said, "This woman has HPV. I know because I was there and I saw the warts. Be careful when dealing with her."

Your post alledged dangerous sexual practices by a client you never participated in those practices with, and have no first hand information. Had you been with Azzure and noted puss dripping from his penis you may very well have been standing on much firmer ground stating so and warning others off. That isn't the case here.

Motive pure. Intent good. Form bad.

BTW if you are planning on getting back in the business at some point, a history of talking about their sexual proclivities in public forums is something potential clients take note of when deciding whose services to engage. Just a penny for your thought change purse.

2) where can girls warn the community if they encounter someone unsafe? in any other venue i would have to disclose his real name in order to identify him... at least in this venue i can call "azzure" on his behavior, and not [insert real name here].

Not true at all, regarding having to use his real names. Plenty of working gals, unsure of real names or not having any name at all, refer to clients they are passing information around about on their unpubed websites and ****** lists by the clients screen name on UG, or TER, etc.

[Thorn]

BTW if you are planning on getting back in the business at some point, a history of talking about their sexual proclivities in public forums is something potential clients take note of when deciding whose services to engage. Just a penny for your thought change purse.

Damn three minute rule. To be added to the above: That isn't acrimony or retaliation. It is good common sense consumer self-advocacy. I don't want my plumber talking about what he's found in my drains, nor my accountant in my personal accounts either. I, and most others, expect service providers to keep their interactions with their clients confidental. [But the vibrator story doesn't qualify... and therefore isn't an issue here.]

[Thorn]

I bet half the people on this board have had or requested bbfs with a prostitute at some point.

Half?

Make that about 90% and I think you'd be closer to accurate.

That would include both providers and clients alike.

BBFS is the dirty little secret of the provider/client community.

You do it once, and you join the ranks of those who have done it at all.

And in fairness to the discussing, since she is speaking to others activities in open forum, it would only be fair if Retired herself states, simply as a point of reference to know if the pot is calling the kettle black, if she has ever, at any point, even a single time, had BBFS with a client.

That isn't B.S. I am slinging. Fair is fair, and as anyone who knows me can tell you, I am a major advocate for fairness [both client to provider and vice-versa].

I'll even go first. I, Thorn, on at least one occassion, have had either BBFS offered to me or have requested same from a client. I have, on at least one occassion, taken a provider up on the offering or she has complied with my request. I get tested regularly [twice a year] and have been a good boy for awhile now and all my tests, thank goodness, have come back clean of any STD's.

I am therefore a pot, and while I feel free to discuss the merits of the issues being discussed I feel I have no right to do so in a manner that suggests I am calling anyone else a kettle.

Care to be as brave, and as honest, as that Retired? Anyone else?

[Thorn]

Should this be in the "shaving" thread?

Now THAT was funny.

[retired]

regarding having to use his real names. Plenty of working gals, unsure of real names or not having any name at all, refer to clients they are passing information around about on their unpubed websites and ****** lists by the clients screen name on UG, or TER, etc. ...but as far as I know, there is only one whore in the world that can connect azzure to a face.

[Thorn]

or have requested same from a client.

Slipped over to the supply side there for a moment. :)

That, obviously, should read provider.

I make typos more readily when my 'fairness' button has been pushed. :)

[retired]

Care to be as brave, and as honest, as that Retired? Anyone else?thorn, that is not brave and honest - that is pompous and obfuscating.

what would REALLY be brave and honest would be for you to state here, do you think azzure is dangerous in the community?

[jras]

nice dodge, retired
your evasion of Thorn's query speaks volumes
(I take that as a "yes", and I'd still do you if you unretire)

[Slinky Bender]

"Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorn
regarding having to use his real names. Plenty of working gals, unsure of real names or not having any name at all, refer to clients they are passing information around about on their unpubed websites and ****** lists by the clients screen name on UG, or TER, etc.

...but
Quote:
Originally Posted by azzure
as far as I know, there is only one whore in the world that can connect azzure to a face. "

I'm really not sure what your point is here. Is it that you are that one? And if so, what's the significance of that? I would think that this might be counter to your argument, but I also think I'm not catching what you're trying to get at.

[Slinky Bender]

nice dodge, retired
your evasion of Thorn's query speaks volumes
(I take that as a "yes", and I'd still do you if you unretire)

I think that knife cuts both ways (it just hasn't swung around in Thorn's direction yet). Both sides are trying to get the other to "admit" something which neither wants to discuss; they just want to talk about what the other side is doing.

Really? You think so? Is there anyone who thinks that anyone in this thread is saying what they really mean (http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?p=55199&highlight=viscous#post55199) and telling the whole story?

[retired]

i am sorry, jras, but you are wrong. thorn (along with almost everyone else it seems) is the dodger here. the issue at hand is not whether i am a pot calling a kettle black: the topic is "is azzure dangerous", and the answer to that question will be the same whether or i (or thorn) did bbfs with 0 or 1000 clients.

as for slinky's question, according to azzure, no hooker other than me knows who he is. therefore, passing information about "azzure" around to other ladies (as thorn suggests) is useless. my point is that this is why UG is the only forum in which i can address azzures behavior without using his real name, because he is known here as "azzure"... is this still confusing?

[Slinky Bender]

{note:written without the benfit of seeing the above post}

I think part of the problem is that you can't accuse someone of "generalities", only specifics. And I think it only leads to arguing past eachother, as is going on here. If someone wants to say that a set of behaviours is risky (or whatever) I think they have to spell out what that pattern is.

What we've seen here is that retired doesn't seem to necessarily think a guy asking for BBFS is all that horrendous, but all that's comming across is that this is what she's complaining about. So guys are comming back with the issue that "everybody does it". But the "it" is what's too fluid. I don't think each side is talking about the same "it", and no one wants to spell out exactly what "it" is.

[Slinky Bender]

the issue at hand is not whether i am a pot calling a kettle black: the topic is "is azzure dangerous"

But you're not defining what you mean. It's like using the term "cute" or "cozy" or even "good". Is it good? Is it cozy? is it cute? Is it dangerous?

You have to explain what you mean by dangerous for anyone to give a reasonable answer. Are you dangerous? I'm sure people can come up with a set of rules/facts/etc under which the answer would be "yes", but without knowing what those rules/facts/etc were, would the answer mean anything?

[Slinky Bender]

Example: Is {insert name of internet hooker here} dangerous?

Well, she has a list of clients, with their real names and phone numbers and some home addresses. If she got arrested with her book, a bunch of guy's wives might get called, and they might have to come in to explain what their names are doing in her book. Therefore, she's dangerous.

Now, if all we did was ask the question and give the final answer, it wouldn't be too meaningful without knowing the middle, which exaplains how we are defining "dangerous".

[akm495]

You can call me stupid, but after reading through this thread I'm a bit confused!!
Wouldn't anyone doing BBFS in this hobby be a danger to themselves, other hobbiest/providers, and the public in genral no matter whom is engagging in it, providers/hobbiests?
Does any else think it is ironic that a thread dealing with pregnant CL providers has morphed into a debate about BBFS and possible consequences?

[azzure]

Maybe something worthwhile can come out of this discussion.

Why don't you spell out RETIRED exactly why you think I present a unique danger. What is it that you think I've done, (or am capable of doing)? I don't think my posts that you've referenced convince anyone that I'm any more dangerous than anyone else. I would simply respectfully request that you not set forth personally identifying information when detailing my alleged depravity.

[retired]

I don't think my posts that you've referenced convince anyone that I'm any more dangerous than anyone else.you also didn't think the posts i referenced convinced anyone that you had bbfs more than once...and that alone should give any reader here good reason to question your sanity!

but here is the bottom line that slinky (at least) seems to get: with the exception of azzure, who appears to have dementia, or amnesia about his own activities, the posters involved in the "is azzure dangerous" discussion all have access to information that is not available on UG. i.e - i have information i obtained in personal conversation with azzure, and the rest of you have information posted on private board(s.) it seems certain that there is some overlap between the information azzure relayed to you on the private board(s) and the information he relayed to me in private conversation, and that all of this indirect bs is because none of us (including amnesiac azzure) is going to post here any information obtained in a private setting. its kinda like playing chicken.

now, here comes azzure, asking me to post the contents of our personal conversation here. for the rest of you who know what the contents of that conversation might include -- do you think it would be responsible or reasonable (or useful in any way) for me to post that information here?

[Ozzy]

This is bull shit.

You're making a serious accusation about a poster here and then not substantiating what the accusation is...since you now say bbfs is only part of it. You’re also dragging a private board into this conversation as if there are some dark dirty secrets there. I know what you and your friend are doing here. That's fucked up, it's even more fucked up that you have the backing of management to do it. Same as HVB had. I'm shocked certain highly respected posters are not in this thread lynching you for this... but then again, they liked what HVB did to.

[retired]

hey oz,

i'm sorry, and i know you have a personal stake in what is being said, but what you are saying doesn't make sense.

i did not enter the thread to make any 'serious accusations' about a poster here (careful to post already-posted info, blah, blah, blah, etc.), and it wasn't until post #97 -- in response to a question you asked, actually -- that i went as far as to say i had "a deep concern". a few posts later you said "there is more than this than you are saying", to which i responded that i felt like you were fishing for some information with all of your questions, but i didn't know what it was. i clearly avoided going down this road.

also, regarding private boards, it was actually you who indirectly brought this ingredient into the conversation (when you mentioned that you had information about what azzure requested during his session with me.) thorn briefly acknowledged private reviews a few posts later. that was it until, 128 posts into the mess, after we danced around all the touchy issues like a bunch of kooks, and azzure posted his request that i post very private information about him (!) that i acknowledged the important ingredient of private boards. that was one post ago.

the "friend" you speak of is, well, hooey.

all that said, lynching me seems a pretty severe response. ;)

[retired]

You’re also dragging a private board into this conversation as if there are some dark dirty secrets there.you mean there aren't? and i thought that dark dirty secrets were what private boards existed for... or maybe that is just the ladies boards. :)

[Slinky Bender]

That's fucked up, it's even more fucked up that you have the backing of management to do it.

You're sounding like you're as delusional as she is.

[Slinky Bender]

i did not enter the thread to make any 'serious accusations' about a poster here

You're sounding like you're as delusional as he is.

[Slinky Bender]

the "friend" you speak of is, well, hooey.

I've never seen him post anywhere. He must be a lurker. (or is that just what you call him?)

[retired]

You're sounding like you're as delusional as he is.
all right, all right! i confess! i hoped some of you guys would chime in and say "yea, that guy is a real creep, and we really do object to what he does too." ... maybe i should be lynched after all.

[Slinky Bender]

You keep talking about this hooey guy......

[Slinky Bender]

all right, all right! i confess! i hoped some of you guys would chime in and say "yea, that guy is a real creep, and we really do object to what he does too."

I don't think you'll get that based solely on the posts which you quoted. And why would anyone say that here based on anything which was written elsewhere? And how do you expect anyone to take umbrage based on a conversation someone supposedly had with you, without even knowing what was in that conversation, except a summary that it was "icky"? Think about it, how would it go?:

Retired: "I had a conversation with Azzure, and he said stuff which makes me think he's icky"

Thorn: "That's it!!!!! Azzure is icky"

Would anyone really expect that to happen?

[Slinky Bender]

Or is hooey female? Maybe it's "former hooey"?

Knock-a, knock-a.

Who's-a there-a ?

Mia.

[Thorn]

thorn, that is not brave and honest - that is pompous and obfuscating.

what would REALLY be brave and honest would be for you to state here, do you think azzure is dangerous in the community?

Stop it. I hate it when bright people act foolish.

It isn't obfuscating at all. We aren't speaking to whether I believe Azzure's actions are dangerous to the community. I made no such statement.

It is your statement we are address in discussion here. You implied his actions are dangerous. Me, I think everyone, with very rare exceptions, is fucking everyone else bare back, at least some times [even if it is only once]. Therefore, if the actions are indeed dangerous, the risks are spread quite evenly across the board and approximately the same for everyone involved. Remember, if you are playing russian roulette the hammer only has to fall on the live round once to loose. It could be the first time, it could be the 6th, the 100th, etc and so forth.

Since you made the comment about Azzure your status as pot or kettle is directly in play and the question has been asked.

Please answer it honestly.

Thank you.

[And remember, none of this is personal. It's a fair question to be asked in debate of the subject you brought up.]

As always, wishing well...

[Thorn]

I think that knife cuts both ways (it just hasn't swung around in Thorn's direction yet). Both sides are trying to get the other to "admit" something which neither wants to discuss; they just want to talk about what the other side is doing.

Not I, and I don't see how you can think that based on what I posted.

I already stated my status as "pot", therefore I have announced I can't have it both ways. What I am asking, quite directly, is if Retired is getting on Azzure for doing something she, herself, has committed. I'm doing what I always do. Testing the hypocrisy factor.

Given my notion of how many people are screwing around bare back, the nature of Retired's nitch in the provider services field, and the number of her years in it, I find it highly unlikely that she never, ever, not even a single time, provided BBFS to a client. But I am willing to listen with an open mind.

You know how I feel about people who live in glass houses who throw stones. You have heard me pop off about it often enough.

[Thorn]

i am sorry, jras, but you are wrong. thorn (along with almost everyone else it seems) is the dodger here. the issue at hand is not whether i am a pot calling a kettle black: the topic is "is azzure dangerous", and the answer to that question will be the same whether or i (or thorn) did bbfs with 0 or 1000 clients.

as for slinky's question, according to azzure, no hooker other than me knows who he is. therefore, passing information about "azzure" around to other ladies (as thorn suggests) is useless. my point is that this is why UG is the only forum in which i can address azzures behavior without using his real name, because he is known here as "azzure"... is this still confusing?

Exactly wrong.

The question here, as raised by you yourself, is whether bare back activites are dangerous within our community. You raised Azzure as an example.

I am simply pointing out two things. 1) That BBFS is so rampant as to be almost a standard of service between clients and providers in our community. And if that is the case than one guy doing one instance of BBFS pales as an example of the actual danger providers and clients alike face. 2) That it is so deeply embedded within our community that it is highly likely that a provider in the field as long as you, particularly in the area of the trade you filled, had provided BBFS herself at least once, to someone. Hence, it makes your point [and mine as well] but in a very round about way that is laced with the taint of hypocrisy. Putting off a point on poor Azzure that you could have just as easily made by citing yourself as an example, or me, or any number of others present calculated into the 90th+ precentile.

[Thorn]

I don't think each side is talking about the same "it", and no one wants to spell out exactly what "it" is.

I did.

Specifically, the percentage of providers and clients engaging in unprotected vaginal intercourse, aka BBFS. That is the "it".

[Thorn]

thorn briefly acknowledged private reviews a few posts later.

Twisted that there a bit, good Lady.

What I said, practically verbatim, is that if providers insisted on making embarrasing commentary about posters of their reviews on public boards they would simply drive the posters of reviews underground, to private boards and ****** lists.

Future tense. Not present tense.

[jras]

all that said, lynching me seems a pretty severe response. ;)
since when is suspending you from the ceiling by your nipples the same as lynching?
(give my regards to Ms. Hooey)

[BklynBoy]

She's getting off on this shit!

Outting anyone is this business in NEVER acceptable, unless they are violent/dangerous and there's proof. The whole basis of "retired" semi-outing azzure is fucked-up bullshit, IMHO.

If everyone who ever asked for/was offered BBFS was deemed "dangerous" and banned from participation in commercial sex, there would be maybe three working girls left and a few thousand newly faithful family men created.

Full disclosure: I've been offered bbfs from providers about 18-20 times over the years, I've partaken zero times. And I'm not THAT fucking special.

[Ozzy]

hey oz,

i'm sorry, and i know you have a personal stake in what is being said, but what you are saying doesn't make sense.

i did not enter the thread to make any 'serious accusations' about a poster here (careful to post already-posted info, blah, blah, blah, etc.), and it wasn't until post #97 -- in response to a question you asked, actually -- that i went as far as to say i had "a deep concern". a few posts later you said "there is more than this than you are saying", to which i responded that i felt like you were fishing for some information with all of your questions, but i didn't know what it was. i clearly avoided going down this road.

also, regarding private boards, it was actually you who indirectly brought this ingredient into the conversation (when you mentioned that you had information about what azzure requested during his session with me.) thorn briefly acknowledged private reviews a few posts later. that was it until, 128 posts into the mess, after we danced around all the touchy issues like a bunch of kooks, and azzure posted his request that i post very private information about him (!) that i acknowledged the important ingredient of private boards. that was one post ago.

the "friend" you speak of is, well, hooey.

all that said, lynching me seems a pretty severe response. ;)

First, I don't know what stake you tink I have in this unless my hunch is right and you are being spoon fed things you shouldn't from a place that's private.

And of course you came here with an agenda...That to make a serious accusation against someone... and as yet, an unfounded one. Your first post was #46. I didn't enter into this thread #67. You said yourself your stomach flipped becaue you saw what azzure wrote about some other ho.... So you decided to throw something in his face and his supposed request to you for bbfs was your weapon.

It was only when I questioned the real seriousness of bbfs since everyone here has done it as some point, that you started making more serious unsubstantiated accusations. And lets be honest... one trick requesting bbfs certainly isn't on the same danger scale as an IV drug using whore who does the same and exchanges other bodily fluids regularly.

I also never said anything about being privy to any information from azzure regarding his session with you.... You're confusing e mails with posts. And I know what you got and where your getting it from. You don't have the whole story which is why you can't support your accusation. You heard something second...maybe third hand and you put it in play without knowing what it is that's in play. Well, now that place is gone and you have no hope of getting anything you need from there.

Don't try and disguise this shit from me, I've played this game here better and for more years than anyone. And if I still did what I used to in the past I'd turn the tables on you. So be thankful I don't and I won't. Just knock it the fuck off.

[Ozzy]

You're sounding like you're as delusional as she is.


If someone came on this board with an obvious hidden agenda and started accusing an advertiser or suppply side poster of having "serious health" issues... vaguely implying they had an STD or worse, yet never stated what it was or any basis for making that claim....

What would management do?

[Cloud Nine]

you won't find anyone who saw me a second time after requesting bbfs the first time.


Mental note to self: When retired unretires wait until the 2nd session to ask for BBFS.

[Thorn]

BTW: It should be noted that by "our community", I am not referencing all providers and all johns.

Our community, as used by myself, is UG and the popular 'webscorts', independents - local and traveling, who have a presence either directly here or by way of discussion within these pages.

It does not reference MP providers and their clients, as I find BBFS tendencies to be much lower [in fact, full service as a whole] within these venues.

Just so everyone is on the same page and comparing 'apples to apples'.

[Slinky Bender]

If someone came on this board with an obvious hidden agenda and started accusing an advertiser or suppply side poster of having "serious health" issues... vaguely implying they had an STD or worse, yet never stated what it was or any basis for making that claim....

What would management do?

Ask them to substantiate their claim (hhmmmmmmmm........... just like....... oh, why bother trying to convince people who make up their minds before looking at the facts).

[Slinky Bender]

Not I, and I don't see how you can think that based on what I posted.

I already stated my status as "pot", therefore I have announced I can't have it both ways. What I am asking, quite directly, is if Retired is getting on Azzure for doing something she, herself, has committed.


Exactly wrong.

The question here, as raised by you yourself, is whether bare back activites are dangerous within our community. You raised Azzure as an example.





I did.

Specifically, the percentage of providers and clients engaging in unprotected vaginal intercourse, aka BBFS. That is the "it".

See, I think if you properly read between the lines...... that is: you don't get what she's talking about, and you continue to talk about what you want the issue to be. Of course, as I've stated umpteen times already, she's not helping my refusing to make clear what her actual complaint is.

[too2muchass4u]

hello guys,
this is anna if there is any questions about me i'm here to defend myself

[too2muchass4u]

what, no Questions for me?

[Ozzy]

Do you have warts on your pussy and ass?

[Dondee]

what, no Questions for me?

Why don't you explain your involvement in all this nonsence?

[too2muchass4u]

first, i don't support no pimp as for the jerk who wrote it you are way off base.
second, however i choose to live my life is my business. i could care less about what people think i have nothing to hide as for me having herpes,aids, or any other std ask the jerk if i asked him as well as every other guy to use protection.
Those ads which claimed i had an std was posted by a former friend who was upset that i decided to break off our friendship due to her being a thief i am always kind and i try to be as courteous as possible.
I have plenty of respect for myself as well as the genlteman on C.L. i have never stolen anything from anybody or transmitted an std those claims to the contrary are fabrications of a sick and demented mind.
Anna

[too2muchass4u]

dear ozzy,
i will not dignify your response with an answer

[too2muchass4u]

it seems to me not many men on C.L. have minds of their own

[too2muchass4u]

i have a question
first why do the men of C.L. ask for BBBj and when a girl refuses they post these sick ads

[too2muchass4u]

what is even more absurd is that many of you who claim to be educated fall for the bs
i always use protection! don't forget safe sex is a must with me!
Anna

[Ozzy]

dear ozzy,
i will not dignify your response with an answer

You asked people to ask you questions.... What kind of questions did you expect after reading the nonsense in this thread. I asked the question that started this whole mess.... That being that someone said you had warts on your pussy.

[too2muchass4u]

i have been on C.L. for over a year and i have always been accused of many things even to being a man! i am sick and tired of guys asking me for bbbj's or anything bare
that is the reason for all the negative publicity! if one guys call and ask for bbbj and i tell him no he then ask for bare sex and the conversation goes from there to his sick mind am i wrong to not tolerate the abuse! or maybe i should leave C.L. alone completely like some of my regular clients are telling me.
As, for me being confused please you could'nt have been more wrong

[Ozzy]

i always use protection! don't forget safe sex is a must with me!
Anna


Intersting.... but yet you advertise as "19 pregnant and sexy"

[too2muchass4u]

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Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 14:02:33 -0400
From: "E W" <willyouhelpme@gmail.com> Add to Address Book
To: "nikki sexpot" <too2muchass4u@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: asshole


You really are stupid. First off, condoms don't protect against everything. It's a risk you and I can take...but to force her to take the risk is...well you know. Second, stuff like that ALWAYS comes out eventually. A friend of yours will tell someone and they'll tell her ... or whatever. Hell, she'll know when her foster mom tells her about you because child protective services will take that kid away as soon as they find out what you're doing

[too2muchass4u]

this is just one of the many assholes i have to deal with every single day and i'm the one with the problem

[Slinky Bender]

My impression from the *****s I had back and forth with the CL girl was that she was very angry. If she is in fact too2muchass4u she's done nothing to dispell that feeling (even looking at the chosen handle).

[retired]

ok - i boiled this all down into what i think is going on, and here is my summary in laypersons terms. (if i am wrong, i am sure no one will hesitate to tell me.)

my concern: after a session with azzure, i think the guy is a serious creep; i think some of you must know what a creep he is; i am frustrated that no one ever objects to his creepiness, so when he says something super-creepy, i make an objection.

ozzy's concern: ozzy knows the guy is a creep; the source of his knowledge is his own private board; he is afraid that his board was also the source of my knowledge about the guys creepiness; he shuts down his board.

thorn's concern: something about glass houses

***************

and hi, anna. the baby must be due so soon... please take care of the two of you.

[too2muchass4u]

anyway, i see there are no more questions and i have my business to attend to
i may not be rich and you may think of me as white trash or whatever but i am no push over and if i must respect you gentleman in return i ask you respect me i dont have the time for senseless arguing especially when they are baseless as well as tasteless!
Anna

[Slinky Bender]

i am frustrated that no one ever objects to his creepiness, so when he says something super-creepy, i make an objection..

Wait a second: so what you're saying about Azzure which makes him so super creepy is that he said on here that some girl was vaginal warts? I find that hard to swallow.

[Thorn]

i have a question
first why do the men of C.L. ask for BBBj and when a girl refuses they post these sick ads

I suppose there are a multitude of answers why some guys would do that.

I would think the easiest of them would be that these same guys make this "hobby" [sic] way too much the center of their existence.

As I have said, many, many, many times before. This should be no more that a condiment to the meal of life. Some people make it their meat and than act the way animals do when protecting their food.

[Slinky Bender]

i dont have the time for senseless arguing especially when they are baseless as well as tasteless!

Then you picked the wrong place.

This is The Jerry Springer Show

(except Thorn doesn't shave his head).

[JackT]

Wait a second: so what you're saying about Azzure which makes him so super creepy is that he said on here that some girl was vaginal warts? I find that hard to swallow.

yep, it seems as though THIS is what started this craziness.... or perhaps it was a convenient 'launching pad,' anyway:

it sounds like azzure thought anna's pussy should be critiqued. i thought azzure's bb sexual practices should be critiqued. neither one of us was speaking abstractly; each of us had experienced a first-hand concern. i think we each made our critique out of concern for the safety of the community, which is not a bad thing,

[retired]

Wait a second: so what you're saying about Azzure which makes him so super creepy is that he said on here that some girl was vaginal warts? I find that hard to swallow.what i said (and i quote) was "my concern: after a session with azzure, i think the guy is a serious creep".

but i think i know what you mean. look at it this way...reading azzures quote was kinda like watching hannibal lechter eating a plate of liver.

[BigMadM]

the water in Long Island never tasted so good.

[too2muchass4u]

dear retired,
thank you very much for your kind words finally some words of encouragement!
Anna

[Thorn]

ok - i boiled this all down into what i think is going on, and here is my summary in laypersons terms. (if i am wrong, i am sure no one will hesitate to tell me.)

Your wrong.

Seriously. This is all poorly thought out. I gave you credit [and would still like to] for having seriously more brain power than this.

my concern: after a session with azzure, i think the guy is a serious creep; i think some of you must know what a creep he is; i am frustrated that no one ever objects to his creepiness, so when he says something super-creepy, i make an objection.

Your opinion is that Azzure is a creep, and you are certainly entitled to it. Where you go wrong is that you take that opinion and take it to another level. Presuming that because you have this opinion that we should all share it, simply because you say so, and berate, belittle and ostracize him for it.

Well, I wouldn't think that was a good idea any more than if Azzure said he had a bad opinion of you and thought we should all march off and tar and feather you.

Truly poorly thought out.

ozzy's concern: ozzy knows the guy is a creep; the source of his knowledge is his own private board; he is afraid that his board was also the source of my knowledge about the guys creepiness; he shuts down his board.

Total presumption, boarding on outright fabrication. Ozzy knows no such thing. He might have an opinion about the guy but an opinion isn't the same thing as knowing something, is it? The difference between opinion and knowing is the mistake you have made from the outset. It is the reason I point out to you that this has been a misstep on your part.

thorn's concern: something about glass houses

You care to make light of fairness as an issue. Fine. [shrugging shoulders]

Again. None of what I have said here, and probably will say, is a slame at you. Though given the way you seem to be taking things lately I think you might think so.

I simply see this very differently than yourself, and I have expressed precisely why I think so. I have opined with what I hope to be direct observations of the practices of our "community", as I have been witness to them over the years, and with practical, common, sense. Feel free to disagree. However, I think if you take a moment to look down the road at where this discussion is going, with a totally open mind to what others have to say on this topic, you might see I have a point or two to make.

As always, wishing well...

[elliot16]

he said on here that some girl was vaginal warts? I find that hard to swallow.

A not so tasty juxtaposition.

[too2muchass4u]

also, what makes you think if i won't have unprotected sex i will let some guy go down on me please! i dont know where his mouth has been and he doesn't know where mines has been safe sex is a must if i wear condoms then there can be no room for arguements at least not with me!

[elliot16]

As I have said, many, many, many times before. This should be no more that a condiment to the meal of life. Some people make it their meat and than act the way animals do when protecting their food.

Wait a minute, I thought the whole issue revolved around whether Azzure and Anna used condiments.

[too2muchass4u]

you need to consul some of these men on the dangers of not using protection!
i get at least 5 calls everyday from guys wanting unprotected sex. countless ******s depicted everything imaginable

[robnotbob]

Then you picked the wrong place.

This is The Jerry Springer Show

(except Thorn doesn't shave his head).


Look after yourselves...and each other.

[Slinky Bender]

i get at least 5 calls everyday from guys wanting unprotected sex.

So, if every hooker in NYC is getting 5 calls a day asking for something..... anything.... how can anyone be surprised if it's actually going on?

[elliot16]

what i said (and i quote) was "my concern: after a session with azzure, i think the guy is a serious creep".

but i think i know what you mean. look at it this way...reading azzures quote was kinda like watching hannibal lechter eating a plate of liver.

This is just so ludicrous as to be beyond description. We're back to "I felt he was icky so everyone should see him as a dangerous threat". Spit out what he said and what about his behaviour concerned you or just shut the fuck up already.

You know this vague inuendo is reminiscent of the shit you posted on 6996 but it doesn't pass the smell test on UG. No wonder you were accused of being dangerous yourself. Half-baked notions of what the PMB world and even the world of prostitution is about and you go spouting on as if you have proof positive of something horrible the likes of which you're only willing to hint at. If there really is an issue here, spell it out so it can be talked about and save the coyness for your Johns.

Are you trying to say that Azzure is a cannibal and serial killer? If not, you better come up with a real argument instead of the tripe you've been serving up to this point.

[Thorn]

Then you picked the wrong place.

This is The Jerry Springer Show

(except Thorn doesn't shave his head).

You haven't seen me lately. :)

[azzure]

Wait a second: so what you're saying about Azzure which makes him so super creepy is that he said on here that some girl was vaginal warts? I find that hard to swallow.

No - I think she said she concluded I was a creep (and said something super-creepy) during our session in July, 2004. For some reason, she decided to publicize her opinion now. Perhaps because of what she deemed my pot-calling-kettle-black Anna comments.

Ironically, I was doing the very thing I said I would do in the bad-apple thread, just as I did with the midget. (and this has nothing to do with warts; although my statements in that regard were factual).

I am still curious why retired thinks I'm creepy, particularly since I thought she was really cool and she certainly didn't share those felings with me when she accepted my offer to drive her home after our session.

Ultimately this is a poetic example of what happens to presumptuous, naive, officious meddlers (like me).

[Thorn]

Wait a minute, I thought the whole issue revolved around whether Azzure and Anna used condiments.

Cute. Bordering on funny.

Just an opinion. :)

[azzure]

dear retired,
thank you very much for your kind words finally some words of encouragement!
my pimp-daddy really appreciates it. He says there's no reason I shouldn't work right up until delivery. Anna

And the day after too.

[Thorn]

...slame...


Thorn. Typo King of UG.

What difference is it that I can type at 60 words a minute if every forth word has a typo in it. [ugh!]

My typing sucks almost as badly as I do. :) [Good thing I don't do it for a living...



typing, that is.] :)






OK... so I went for the funny.

Booo!

[Thorn]

So, if every hooker in NYC is getting 5 calls a day asking for something..... anything.... how can anyone be surprised if it's actually going on?

Exactly!

[billyS]

Slinky,
Nice choice for the HOF today !

[neilz]

[QUOTE=too2muchass4u]also, safe sex is a must if i wear condoms QUOTE]
Anna, what do you wear them on???

[billyS]

I would like some things cleared up in this thread.
1) Azzure - you swore this girl had a bad case of warts. Now that she is on the board do you stand by your post? Does she have warts as bad as you say? If she doessn't then your word is shit on this board now (for me anyway).
2) Anna - Ozzy asked you a legit question. (welcome to the board BTW !). Your warts are what got this disscusion started. Do you have warts and if so how bad are they. It is only fair to both you and our readers that you stop the guessing game.
3) retired - What the hell could have Azzure done that was so creepy? I mean you were a sub. Don't you expect guys to come over and ask to beat the shit out of you? To pee or deficate on you and ask you to enjoy it? So what the hell did he do that possibly could be so creepy? Azzure already said it was Okay so it is not like you are breaking some sacred vow. Since you put it out there and are asking us to judge Azzure you should tell the whole story.

[azzure]

Are you trying to say that Azzure is a cannibal and serial killer?

Funny, she didn't have any problem with my feet collection at the time. All she complained about then was the refrigerator being cold.

[elliot16]

Funny, she didn't have any problem with my feet collection at the time. All she complained about then was the refrigerator being cold.

Was that before or after you cold cocked her?

[Slinky Bender]

"Excuse me, sir, what did the turkey do?"

[Ozzy]

ozzy's concern: ozzy knows the guy is a creep; the source of his knowledge is his own private board; he is afraid that his board was also the source of my knowledge about the guys creepiness; he shuts down his board.




I never said or implied anything of sorts.


Unlike most hooers, I have certain standars. You won't find creeps nor dopes on my board.

[iusedtobeone1]

I am not a creep or a dope, a scumbag maybe, but not a creep or a dope. I am with Billy on this one.

[justlooking]

See, I think if you properly read between the lines...... that is: you don't get what she's talking about, and you continue to talk about what you want the issue to be. Of course, as I've stated umpteen times already, she's not helping my refusing to make clear what her actual complaint is.

Probably too late to say so, but this seems clearly right to me. Although retired is being painfully unclear, I don't think she's talking about the same "it" as Thorn is.

[justlooking]

(At least up to the point I've read so far.)

[justlooking]

(OK. Now I have NO IDEA what "it" is.)

[retired]

Since you put it out there and are asking us to judge Azzure you should tell the whole story.azzure has been judged already, billys, and by people who know more gory details than i do, i am sure. unlike Thorn, i think people sometimes speak quite effectively for others, and i think ozzy summed up that community attitude nicely.You won't find creeps nor dopes on my board.as for the big "it".Although retired is being painfully unclear, I don't think she's talking about the same "it" as Thorn is.god only knows what Thorn is talking about, JL... my specific complaint was that azzure does some creepy stuff, and i object -- my larger complaint is that that men on the board hardly ever object to the creepy behavior of other men here, even when it is harmful IRL.

then certain parties got fixated on how i discovered that azzure was creepy in the first place, and other parties fixated on extracting salacious details so they could determine how much of the creepiness i really know about, and other parties got fixated on demanding a definitions of harm,creepiness and "it",and and then there was that guy that just kept chuckling about his personal bbfs experiences, and well... you'll just have to read the rest. if you are still awake.

[billyS]

-- my larger complaint is that that men on the board hardly ever object to the creepy behavior of other men here, even when it is harmful IRL.
How the fuck can I object when I don't know what he did other then ask for BBFS, which a lot of guys must do. If he forced BBFS, like Phantom, I would object and if you've been around long enough you'd know I called Phantom on that many times, raising my disgust for forcible BBFS.
But what creepy thing did Azzure do? You areloosing crerdablity here fast.
Same as Azzure for not answering my question put to him.

[Ozzy]

azzure has been judged already, billys, and by people who know more gory details than i do, i am sure. unlike Thorn, i think people sometimes speak quite effectively for others, and i think ozzy summed up that community attitude nicely.as for the big "it".god only knows what Thorn is talking about, JL... my specific complaint was that azzure does some creepy stuff, and i object -- my larger complaint is that that men on the board hardly ever object to the creepy behavior of other men here, even when it is harmful IRL.

then certain parties got fixated on how i discovered that azzure was creepy in the first place, and other parties fixated on extracting salacious details so they could determine how much of the creepiness i really know about, and other parties got fixated on demanding a definitions of harm,creepiness and "it",and and then there was that guy that just kept chuckling about his personal bbfs experiences, and well... you'll just have to read the rest. if you are still awake.


This is fucking nonsense....

I personally think guys who are into the sub thing (no matter what side) are creepy. Same as guys who want to be diapered and or pissed on whatever.... That's my opinion but I won't knock someone on the board and try to rally others against him because I believe its everyone’s right to be creepy so long as its all consensual between two sensible adults.


You on the other hand came here with an obvious agenda and are using the vague term "creepy" to describe a poster, and you're doing so under the facade of being a hooker advocate to carry out your agenda. Now I don't know whether he requested or forced bbfs on you, pissed on you, smacked your ass for an hour or what... .but unless you tell us "it" wasn't consensual than you have no business accusing someone of being "creepy".... especially being someone who gets paid for being a pissmop.

[donquixote04]

... my specific complaint was that azzure does some creepy stuff ...
I realize I am only re-stating the obvious, but the above quote is an oxymoron. If you are trying to clarify a -specific- complaint, then you need to do a lot more than say he does stuff that is "creepy". That is not specific at all.

[brestman]

this thread has been hijacked with idiocy.
How much more do we need to rehash the same nonsense.

1 Its clear some of us like azzure ask for some strange things, if he wont post what he asks or what he did it should be the end of it, you have more than an idea from everybodys statements.

2 Anna has some genital warts, its obvious from her responses(or lack of them) as well as from at least 2 sources. the question everybody is trying to answer is, is it just a small wart or 2 or is her pussly lined with them. Well whats the difference, even if its one wart are you going to daty that or screw her without a condom? No, so what is the big deal. Keep her pants on in the session and take oral as she is a decent looking young girl or go to the next provider.

For pregnant or lactating reviews go here:

http://utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23670

[justlooking]

god only knows what Thorn is talking about, JL... my specific complaint was that azzure does some creepy stuff, and i object -- my larger complaint is that that men on the board hardly ever object to the creepy behavior of other men here, even when it is harmful IRL.

then certain parties got fixated on how i discovered that azzure was creepy in the first place, and other parties fixated on extracting salacious details so they could determine how much of the creepiness i really know about, and other parties got fixated on demanding a definitions of harm,creepiness and "it",and and then there was that guy that just kept chuckling about his personal bbfs experiences, and well... you'll just have to read the rest. if you are still awake.

I'm not looking for an inquisition (so perhaps its best if you don't say anything more), but I hope you can understand how most people don't get too excited by an unsupported accusation that someone is "creepy."

(And if you're not prepared from the start to say anything more than that you think someone is "creepy" -- and I don't think you necessarily should be prepared to say anything more -- then I don't think it's a good idea to even start with public accusations of individuals.)

[azzure]

How are you supposed to respond, and should you respond at all, to repeated and vehement accusations of "creepiness"? This is the issue I'm grappling with. Especially when I have no idea what the accuser is talking about and she has declined all invitations, including my own, to be more specific. Suffice to say, I have never become aware that anyone else shared such an opinion of azzure, IRL, or otherwise. And I have shared (here and elsewhere) more about my hobbying life than perhaps any other monger in this "community" other than, perhaps, BMM. And maybe that is the problem.

Retired was my first experience with what I think would be regarded as a "heavy sub." I don't think I made any "unusual" requests. S&M and D/S are not really my cup of tea, so I'm sure it was a pritty vanilla session. I spanked her, pissed on her, and had sex with her - which is what I understood to be the bare minimum of the basic services she offered. I don't remember asking for BBFS and, in any event, we did not do BBFS. I didn't rape, maim, torture, dismember or decapitate her, nor did I ask her to bring a VERY little sister to the next session. Everything was consensual and, in fact, I thought she was somewhat bored by my lack of creativity. I any event, she didn't share her dis-taste with me during or after the session. I actually liked her, drove her home, thought we parted on good terms, and had no inkling how she felt about me until now, 14 months later.

Have I done BBFS? Yes. Have I done it alot? Yes. Have I, perhaps, endangered others by doing so? Yes. Have I infected anyone with anything? I have very good reason to believe the answer to this is NO, thank God. But that was sheer luck and happenstance. As I think I've made clear on UG and elsewhere, including in the posts retired cited earlier, the potential of endangering others in the pursuit of this hobby bothers me. But the fact that it bothers me is no grounds for absolution. Am I "creepier" than most or the "creepiest" of them all? I have no idea.

[justbill_redux]

then certain parties got fixated on how i discovered that azzure was creepy in the first place, and other parties fixated on extracting salacious details so they could determine how much of the creepiness i really know about, and other parties got fixated on demanding a definitions of harm,creepiness and "it",and and then there was that guy that just kept chuckling about his personal bbfs experiences, and well... you'll just have to read the rest. if you are still awake.

Please just shut the fuck up.

[justlooking]

How are you supposed to respond, and should you respond at all, to repeated and vehement accusations of "creepiness"?

You put in big bold letters, in red:

"I AM NOT A CREEP."

Don't you think that would just about nail it?

[justlooking]

Then, just to make sure you have things closed so tight there could be no further response:

"I KNOW YOU ARE, BUT WHAT AM I?"

I mean, once you've said that, what possible rejoinder could there be?

[elliot16]

Then, just to make sure you have things closed so tight there could be no further response:

"I KNOW YOU ARE, BUT WHAT AM I?"

I mean, once you've said that, what possible rejoinder could there be?
YOUR MOTHER!!!!!

Nothing personal....

[Ozzy]

actually retired backed up and settled on the term "creepy".... but it was her accusations about something that happened during their session and the labeling azzure as a "danger to our commmunity" that got everyone up in a roar. If she had stated "creepy" from the outset, I don't think thread would have taken the direction it did.

[azzure]

Then, just to make sure you have things closed so tight there could be no further response:

"I KNOW YOU ARE, BUT WHAT AM I?"

I mean, once you've said that, what possible rejoinder could there be?

Actually, your wrong JL (if I understand the thrust of your post correctly) I never called her a creep. I said I liked her when I met her. I leave others to draw their own conclusions.

[Thorn]

Probably too late to say so, but this seems clearly right to me. Although retired is being painfully unclear, I don't think she's talking about the same "it" as Thorn is.

Umm NP, Slinky... I had a lot more to say about this but I deleted it.

I want you to stop and think about what you know about me and than consider the irony inherit in the line of thought that suggests that I don't comprehend that Retired's great moving target of an "it" is one specific form of a myriad forms of human misery.

[Thorn]

unlike Thorn, i think people sometimes speak quite effectively for others...

I take words quite seriously. I try to use them precisely.

I think people can advocate for others quite effectively. When you say "speak for them" you use it as if it was literally to know their mind. You don't.

I will unabashedly declare that I have a greater working knowledge of this, due to things I have no intention of going into on a whoreboard, than you and, again, I would never state I could speak for someone else's mind on the issue. Simply my own.

You presume too much.

...god only knows what Thorn is talking about..

I think I have been pretty clear about that, and you haven't answered a single query I've put to you yet. Nor have you stated a single, concrete, position. You are all over the place. Your argument is all smoke and mirrors. Get serious about this and debate it like someone with a true interest in dealing with facts, not feelings, or let it be.

[Thorn]

You put in big bold letters, in red:

"I AM NOT A CREEP."

Don't you think that would just about nail it?


Didn't we have a President who did that?

Oh.. yeah, that was crook.

Continue with the irony. Don't let me bother you.

:D

[azzure]

This historical allusion is, of course, inapposite here IMHO

[justlooking]

I didn't even mean to evoke that.

[justlooking]

Or, at least, not that implication.

[elliot16]

I didn't even mean to evoke that.


See what happens when you try to be funny?

[Thorn]

What not. He even had his own good old boys club. What was that called again...

Oh yeah. It was called CReEP.

[Historical humor... isn't it great.... ugh!]

[Thorn]

Yeah.. I know.

Booooooooo!

I agree.

[retired]

I will unabashedly declare that I have a greater working knowledge of this, due to things I have no intention of going into on a whoreboard... thorn. i try to be courteous. but this kind of bullshit pushes a nice lady like me over the edge. so many of your statements make you out to be an ass - but this one makes you out to be an asshole.

[retired]

How the fuck can I object when I don't know what he did other then ask for BBFS, which a lot of guys must do. If he forced BBFS, like Phantom, I would object and if you've been around long enough you'd know I called Phantom on that many times, raising my disgust for forcible BBFS.
But what creepy thing did Azzure do? You areloosing crerdablity here fast.how sweet of you to suggest i have any credibility here at all!

ok - here is why i left the session with azzure feeling "deeply disturbed"... which should also explain why i did not want to (and will not) post specific specifics on this board.

as is already clear, i met azzure for a bdsm session. during the course of that session, he asked me for bbfs. i said no. he said it would be ok - he hobbied regularly, had bbfs fairly regularly, got tested every three months, and had never tested positive for any std. i said no. i thought he was dumb, reckless, and a hazard to many people around him... but that was not what left me "deep disturbed".

what left me deeply disturbed was what he subsequently told me about sessions he had with other girls. during a break in our activities, azzure described for me, in detail, some recent sessions he had particularly enjoyed. this included showing me CL ads, and telling me about conversations with a pimp about how to turn out new girls. the thoughts, feelings and experiences he spoke of described a man who gets off from actual power over girls - not role-play bdsm power. i left the session deeply concerned that at the very least he pushes the line between consensual and non-consensual (bbfs and otherwise) with girls who are succeptable to pressure, and at the worst that he has the potential to be a predator, seeking out the more vulnerable sexworkers to see how much power he can actually exert over them.

now - azzure is a very verbal guy, and i believe that everything he told me, he also backchannelled and posted on private board(s). not to be sarcastic, but some of you guys probably got the home number of the pimp mentioned above at the time of those events. it seems certain that some of you guys have heard twenty of azzures stories for every one i heard from him. and - from what i get here - not a one of you, except azzure himself, is or ever has been even vaguely concerned about his activities.

so here we are, a year later, and i read azzures post about fingering the 18-yr old pregnant girl who is being pimped out by her bf, and my tummy flips. i think of you guys who must have been hearing his stories for the past year, who seem to think this is all a-ok, and i feel a burning need to object. i can't say "hey this guy told me he does creepy stuff with vulnerable girls" (imagine the reception to that one!) so i focus on the one thing i can publicly object to and i point to it.

and that, dear reader, is what "it" was all about.

[retired]

the reason why (as azzure has mentioned twice) i accepted a ride home with "creepy" him is because at the end of the session he pulled out his wallet and said "shucks - i didn't bring enough money with me to pay you - can i make it up next time?" rather than lop off his penis and catch a cab home, i rode with him to his bank, and then let him drop me off.

...now, how many minutes before someone says "see, that's the real reason the bitch had it in for poor azzure". ;)

[azzure]

what left me deeply disturbed was what he subsequently told me about sessions he had with other girls. during a break in our activities, azzure described for me, in detail, some recent sessions he had particularly enjoyed. this included showing me CL ads, and telling me about conversations with a pimp about how to turn out new girls. the thoughts, feelings and experiences he spoke of described a man who gets off from actual power over girls - not role-play bdsm power. i left the session deeply concerned that at the very least he pushes the line between consensual and non-consensual (bbfs and otherwise) with girls who are succeptable to pressure, and at the worst that he has the potential to be a predator, seeking out the more vulnerable sexworkers to see how much power he can actually exert over them.

I expected more of you retired. Either you are a total liar or your memory is deficient. I remember well this conversation, and although this is probably saying too much, I'm not gonna let this pass.

We discussed a pimp who recruits girls through CL for non-escort, adult themed work who took pride in his ability to "flip" them (to escort work). Based on conversations I had with him after my encounter with one of his flippies (who was then a student at columbia university) I concluded the guy was a true sociopath - an amazingly articulate and dangerous guy - and I was so disturbed by my exchange with him (and other things I subsequently learned) that I asked whether you thought anything should be done.

Basically you said that you were too busy to concern yourself with such matters.

I never said anything about "particularly enjoy[ing]" this session and what we actually discussed was the power trip this guy had when turning girls out. As he put it: "imagine that, I get them to PAY ME to work for me."

After my conversation with you I posted my own "bad apple" thread on another board one year ago:

"As ardent participants in "this thing of ours" I'm sure we would all loath being RAT's or hypocrites.

Nonetheless, I would appreciate comments on the following question: Are there any circumstances in which you would consider intervention (either self-help or LE involvement) if you came across a bad situation.

(Think very evil pimp.)"

I never dealt with him again and never shared his number with anyone.

The girl I had seen through him thereafter requested my assistance with housing and other matters and I gave it to her with no quid pro quo.

[azzure]

Lest anyone get the impression azzure is a do-gooder running around righting the wrongs in the world, I should say that I shared my thoughts on this pimp with retired because, although I didn't know her very well, I believed, given her other profession AND greater familiarity with this world (of internet escorts) she would have something to offer. My initial impression of her was that she was a person of reasonably sound judgment and discretion.

This has taught me, once again, never to trust first impressions.

[Ozzy]

Lest anyone get the impression azzure is a do-gooder running around righting the wrongs in the world, I should say that I shared my thoughts on this pimp with retired because, although I didn't know her very well, I believed, given her other profession AND greater familiarity with this world (of internet escorts) she would have something to offer. My initial impression of her was that she was a person of reasonably sound judgment and discretion.

This has taught me, once again, never to trust first impressions.


She's no April.

[Ozzy]

...now, how many minutes before someone says "see, that's the real reason the bitch had it in for poor azzure". ;)


Assuming it's true... half true....

WHY THE FUCK DIDN'T YOU SAY THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE!


But really... Does it come as some surprise that guys in our community are dealing with pimps... even pimping out some girls themselves....

[justlooking]

I was gonna post this in the "Bad Apples" thread, but I'll post it here.

One thing I though was kinda delusional in that thread was this notion that this board represents a "community" of "internet sex users" that excludes things like streetwalkers, pimps, etc.

On the consumer side, the overlap is enormous. And I get the feeling that there's more overlap than you'd think on the supply side, too.

It's nuts to think there's this separate internet "community" cut off from the rest of the commercial sex world.

[elliot16]

first of all i want to thank you guys for thinking about the issues instead of booing me off the board.

1) how did i get from point 'a' (azzures post about anna) to point 'b' (calling attention to his unsafe practices)? to begin with, the session i had with azzure about a year ago left me with a deep concern about his safeness in the community. when i read his words about anna in particular (shes an unwell kid about to have a baby for christ's sake) my concern boiled over and i felt compelled to call attention to his dangerousness. (i'm not saying the man gave anna the warts - i am saying that her condition is a glaring example of the possible outcome of his behavior.) my responding post was to say "have you woken up yet?"

2) why didn't i say something earlier, before i retired? imagine i had hopped on to UG shortly after that session a year ago and said (as ozzy suggests) "hey! based on my experience with him, i know azzure practices unsafe sex with working girls!" ... i was afraid that a) there might be some retaliation against me as a sex worker, and b) it wouldn't make any fucking difference.

i apologize if this was not the place to say what i said... but where else is there? where can girls warn the community if they encounter someone unsafe? in any other venue i would have to disclose his real name in order to identify him... at least in this venue i can call "azzure" on his behavior, and not [insert real name here].

I think you've changed your argument ex post facto. You start off by saying that you're concerned about him doing BBFS period. Then you say he's just creepy and everyone should recognize that without explanation. Then you finally start to make specific accusations regarding his association with pimps and the fact that he is pushing the line in terms of coercion with these girls. Not to diminish the concerns about women who are being abused or coerced, but to me it looks like someone helped you write your book report....

[elliot16]

And to make another point, I don't see why the current arguement could have been made in the first place if it indeed was the inspiration for your response to Azzure as it would have been something legitimate to discuss.

[azzure]

what left me deeply disturbed was what he subsequently told me about sessions he had with other girls. during a break in our activities, azzure described for me, in detail, some recent sessions he had particularly enjoyed. this included showing me CL ads, and telling me about conversations with a pimp about how to turn out new girls. the thoughts, feelings and experiences he spoke of described a man who gets off from actual power over girls - not role-play bdsm power. i left the session deeply concerned that at the very least he pushes the line between consensual and non-consensual (bbfs and otherwise) with girls who are succeptable to pressure, and at the worst that he has the potential to be a predator, seeking out the more vulnerable sexworkers to see how much power he can actually exert over them.

I agree that "pimped-out" girls raise issues, even sometimes of consent and coercion. The "pimp" I was referring to did business, however, under the guise of an "legitimate", up-standing agency. The person I refer to as the "pimp" was the founder and owner. ( I remember the girl I saw explaining to me - when I tried to talk sense into her - that he is "not a pimp" and that its a "real business . . . with an office and everything" and he is her "boss" and she is an "employee.")

As for me, I do, in fact, enjoy having power generally, and over women in particular, and I wish I had more. (but I've never forced anyone to do anything)

[elliot16]

Here's an interesting and novel thought that crossed my mind today and I have to say that I don't know how valid it is but I think it's an issue worth exploring. In this thread we've seen Anna or at least someone who calls herself Anna deny that she's being pimped out or that she does any BB services even though their have been some allegations that both are true. It's also true that many pimped out prostitutes protect their pimps even when someone is trying to help them escape from the pimp or protect them from a beating the pimp is giving her.

While I don't discount that a large number, perhaps even the majority (because there is no way to get an accurate measure) of girls who work for pimps are being used and exploited and protect the pimp out of a kind of Stockholm syndrome mentality, there probably still may be a substantial number of these women who are in fact submissives and see their pimp as their master and dom......

[Slinky Bender]

I think you've changed your argument ex post facto. You start off by saying that you're concerned about him doing BBFS period. Then you say he's just creepy and everyone should recognize that without explanation. Then you finally start to make specific accusations regarding his association with pimps and the fact that he is pushing the line in terms of coercion with these girls.

I disagree (and I think jl does also?). That's why I've been yelling at Thorn. I think both you and Thorn thought her argument was about azzure even asking about BBFS period, but I didn't think that was what she was talking about at all. It wasn't clear what she was talking about, but she made a number of allsions that it wasn't the asking for BBFS, even though she refused to stake what it actually was (and that's why I've been jumping up and down for days telling her to come out with it and say what she actually means/meant).

[Slinky Bender]

As for me, I do, in fact, enjoy having power generally, and over women in particular, and I wish I had more.

It's really too bad that I don't think we can have a meaningful discussion about where this comes from , how prevalent it is, etc. I wish that wasn't the case. Perhaps if we had a section where every handle came up as "anonymous".

[justlooking]

I disagree (and I think jl does also?). That's why I've been yelling at Thorn. I think both you and Thorn thought her argument was about azzure even asking about BBFS period, but I didn't think that was what she was talking about at all. It wasn't clear what she was talking about, but she made a number of allsions that it wasn't the asking for BBFS, even though she refused to stake what it actually was (and that's why I've been jumping up and down for days telling her to come out with it and say what she actually means/meant).

jl does also.

In other words, DITTO.

[justlooking]

It's really too bad that I don't think we can have a meaningful discussion about where this comes from , how prevalent it is, etc. I wish that wasn't the case. Perhaps if we had a section where every handle came up as "anonymous".

DITTO to this, too.

[elliot16]

I disagree (and I think jl does also?). That's why I've been yelling at Thorn. I think both you and Thorn thought her argument was about azzure even asking about BBFS period, but I didn't think that was what she was talking about at all. It wasn't clear what she was talking about, but she made a number of allsions that it wasn't the asking for BBFS, even though she refused to stake what it actually was (and that's why I've been jumping up and down for days telling her to come out with it and say what she actually means/meant).

No, I really haven't characterized her argument prior to this so don't lump my comments in with Thorn's. What I've said is that she has been incoherent about what it was that was "creepy" about Azzure and that the only thing she was coherent about was her "alarm" about the issue of BBFS.

[Slinky Bender]

No, I really haven't characterized her argument prior to this so don't lump my comments in with Thorn's. .

But you did now characterise her argument back then as the same as what Thorn characterised it as. And I think (and now I know jl agrees) that this isn't what her arguemnt was now, or back then. It's just that she wasn't clear what it was back then, and that's different than changing the argument, which is what you said she did. If you make the statement that she's chaning it from BBFS to what she's saying now, then you have to be argueing that "back then" is was teh BBFS. My point is that it appeared to me back then{/i] that this wasn't what she was talking about, even though it was clear that she was refusing to say what it actaully [i]was about back then.

Is it possible that she has changed what her argument about? Of course, because we don't know what it really was about back then, so we can'ty say whether of not it's been consitent. But there's no proof that it's been changed, either, because/if it wasn't about BBFS and it's still not about BBFS. It's only if you can rightfully characterise her argument back then as being about BBFS - which is what both you and Thorn have done (he at the time, and you now).

I know it's painful to be lumped in whith Thorn (did I hear retired ask "will that be one lump or two?"). :p

[azzure]

It's really too bad that I don't think we can have a meaningful discussion about where this comes from , how prevalent it is, etc. I wish that wasn't the case. Perhaps if we had a section where every handle came up as "anonymous".

I could say alot about this and related issues, but, under the circmstances, I'm sure you understand why I would be reluctant to talk about such things anymore.

[justlooking]

Yeah. That's exactly the problem.

[elliot16]

Is it possible that she has changed what her argument about? Of course, because we don't know what it really was about back then, so we can'ty say whether of not it's been consitent. But there's no proof that it's been changed, either, because/if it wasn't about BBFS and it's still not about BBFS. It's only if you can rightfully characterise her argument back then as being about BBFS - which is what both you and Thorn have done (he at the time, and you now).


As you said, it is her own ambiguity and ambivalence about this issue which has lead to misunderstanding and perhaps mischaracterization about which issue really concerned her. What makes me doubt her sincerity or consistancy as to what prompted her post to begin with is that she was very clear about her claim of unsafe practices and BBFS but silent on the issue of abusiveness and coercion.

That you and JL both projected an "understanding" of what she was trying to say aside, it seems odd to me that she would be unable to articulate an argument which was much more likely to receive a sympathetic response than her outright charges of BBFS and dangerous sexual practices which as we all know is the third rail of the commercial sex trade.

Add to the fact that the issue of exploitation is occuring in the setting which is viewed by many PMB posters as well as internet prostitutes as being the most foreign to them (namely pimped out girls) it again seems that if this was the first issue in her mind that it would be the one which was more easy to broach and more palatable to her audience.

Let me add, however, that I believe in reality as JL has already stated that the crossover factor is much greater than either the supply side or consumers would want to admit. Regardless of that, the mentality that exists on PMBs and on UG is such that she'd be more likely to get support for that view than rebuke.

The question then arises as to why she would bury the lead of the story? And now I'll leave it to the soothsayers to divine the reason for that as well...

[elliot16]

:p

By the way, I can't believe you've sunk to this.

[Thorn]

... thorn. i try to be courteous. but this kind of bullshit pushes a nice lady like me over the edge. so many of your statements make you out to be an ass - but this one makes you out to be an asshole.

If that is what you think about it, fine. It is your opinion and I shant try to change it. I'm more than comfortable with my track record to let my statements stand on their own merit.

So know that on other matters I am open to discussion. On this particular issue you are mistaking me for someone who cares about your opinion on the matter.

[Thorn]

That's why I've been yelling at Thorn

Actually, I didn't feel I was being "yelled" at. I thought we were discussing a difference of opinon.



I think both you and Thorn thought her argument was about azzure even asking about BBFS period...

Have you been reading the same posts I am writing?

I said I thought she started off with BBFS, switched to creepy, and then went off on the general topic of one specific type of human misery, that where men with power take advantage of women without any, and use that power to bad and hurtful ends.

It is one we have touch on here and in other places many times before with discussions in sex trafficing, etc. One that my track record is well established on. Etc, and so forth.

[azzure]

Holy shit I just noticed I have a moniker. Now I just have to figure out the significance of it.

[Thorn]

I know it's painful to be lumped in whith Thorn (did I hear retired ask "will that be one lump or two?"). :p

OK, now I am offically disappointed in several of you.

You know why it is that I might have a knowledge about this kind of thing, and you certainly [I hope] have read my posts and know I wasn't centering on the BBFS thing at all.

I was all about the hypocrisy of the statements being bandied about, as I frequently am, and the level of rose tinted spec wearing... Though I am starting to have second thoughts about the latter as I am distinctly seeing an unspoken agenda present in the writings of Ms. Retired that have little, or nothing, to do with what she's actually harping about.

Red lights, bells and whistles are going off. I don't know if I care enough about it to try and find out why, but my Spidey senses are decidedly tingling.

[jras]

I said I thought she started off with BBFS, switched to creepy, and then went off on the general topic of one specific type of human misery, that where men with power take advantage of women without any, and use that power to bad and hurtful ends.


Close enough.
You can't read a mind where there ain't one.

[retired]

I am distinctly seeing an unspoken agenda present in the writings of Ms. Retired that have little, or nothing, to do with what she's actually harping about.entertain us. *chuckle*