The Things I learn from evesdropping on JAG

[K.S.]

1. That I really wanna meet Aristotle.
2. That most men, when they're not trading fluff, are pretty damn harsh on providers.
3. That these same men can be pretty understanding and intelligent.
4. That they think providers are fucked up and stupid psychos.
5. That they think every single detail of a provider's life is their business, but god forbid a provider should try to protect herself by checking an ID or something.
6. That they have a wide range of what they find ethical and acceptable.
7. That they think ALL women are at least potential whores, and that rather than taking this to mean that being a whore must therefore be a logical thing, they believe that ALL women are therefore bad.
8. That some men are really looking for a great experience with an attractive woman who at least seems to like him, but others are only out to see just how depraved and cheap an experience can be.

I've been evesdropping on JAG for over a year now - ever since I was a provider. I go back once in a while because it's damned entertaining, and it reminds me of why I don't want to go back into providing.

I know that if I did, the JAG board would fairly hum with gleeful speculations on how I must have failed at being a normal person, or how I'm a dumb, lazy, greedy psycho slut who just can't get up off her back. This would be especially true since I told people have a college degree from a prestigious school, and many people assumed I was lying, a la Educated Escort.

It's a shame, though, because I sometimes think it could be fun to see a client or two a week. I MISS the sex, I MISS the excitment, and I could use a couple hundred extra a week.

[Candide]

If a tree crashes in an empty forest does it make a noise. If an ex-provider makes a loud noise while being a fly on the wall is it evesdropping?

1. I agree with you except about a few things. I think those guys believe there is a big difference between pro's and "normal" women.

2. I think most of the time they are right except when they have an obvious bone to pick which they aren't admitting to or when they generalize without knowing the person.

3. Sometimes I dont want to admit it - but I think they are right and they teach me a big FAT lesson which I HATE admitting.

4. I really want to meet Mr. P and WSB.

5. I suspect Aristotle is my Dad.

6. I think you, KS, would have at least one loyal and devoted customer tickled pink that you came back - of course there are always those who have to make dark, cynical comments. But I know for a fact at least several guys would be smiling from ear to ear if you'd see them.

7. I agree though, you can't go back. Unless you become one of those pro's who does it for fun and some pocket money - but then you might as well just skip to the part where you become an old, weird, tart. Or, unless you have your secret coven of a few regulars - but something bad always happens with that - like you fall for one or he falls for you - what a mess.

8. If you need more money, look over your budget. Chances are your wasting something somewhere. A smart woman like you should be loaded by now anyway!

9. Did I leave anything out? I keep telling myself to shut my mouth but I could not resist! You're a very bad girl KS :)

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by K.S.:

....8. That some men are really looking for a great experience with an attractive woman who at least seems to like him .....

{bows deeply}

... I'm a dumb, lazy, greedy psycho slut who just can't get up off her back.

just like my ex-wife! ;)

It's a shame, though, because I sometimes think it could be fun to see a client or two a week. I MISS the sex, I MISS the excitment, and I could use a couple hundred extra a week.

no problem, kitten. you're obviously my kind of gal. email me anytime. strictly for time and companionship, and, naturally, whatever you can get me to consent to ;)

guy -- gcatelli@yahoo.com


[Edited by guy catelli on 03-21-2001 at 11:34 AM]

[Phantom]

Doesn't ANYBODY find it strange that a provider who EVERYONE claims to have totally left the business is lurking on a board where prostitutes and their talents or lack of are discussed?

I mean any mention of Kimberly Sweets' name was almost immediately deleted from another board. Her name was forbidden to be posted.

So Kimberly, if you are still lurking here, WHAT'S up with THAT?

[Slinky Bender]

Phantom,

Why would you find it so strange that someone who retired from any business wouldn't still want to eavesdrop on people still in that business or the customers ? I know I have lots of conversations with people who used to be in my business and want to know what's going on now. And there is at least one retired "hobbyist" who still hangs on JAG. You know that JAG is flooded with lurkers from the supply side ( don't you ? ), so a "retired one" wouldn't be all that unusual. Besides, if a "supply sider" were to read JAG, it would be better if it were a retired one, anyway; both for their sake and the board's, no ?

However, I must admit that my judgement is clouded by pride, in that if KS is who you intimate she is, I'm glad she chose UG to fill us in from the ( unique, especailly on this type of forum ) perspective that she would see things from.

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by Candide
....... I think those guys believe there is a big difference between pro's and "normal" women.....

seriously, ladies, this is so unbelievably dense on their part ... and there's just a tiny bit of it going-on on some other boards, too (cough).

i became part of this thing of ours almost 3 decades ago (as a typical 'baby-trick' ;))

i was walking up broadway late one night. a young woman was walking in my direction. our eyes met; in a few seconds we had a 'meeting of the minds', and, a few minutes later we had a meeting of the bodies.

and the thing that blew my mind for the next two weeks was, as i said over and over to myself, "they're just like NORMAL WOMEN!!!" -- except they're not totally square about male sexuality -- like most 'normal women'.

but, bottom line, it was the easiest social interaction i've ever had, and it has been virtually every time ever since.

because none of my civilian friends were into this thing of ours (actually there was a work colleague who was -- but, what the hell was there to say beyond that!), i had no idea until i got to these boards how many men are having this hard a time with something that's set up from jump street to be as 'goof-proof' as anything ever gets in life.

but, it can't be because they have 'normal-man' attitudes. it must be because these escorts "aren't like 'normal woman'."

uh-huh ;)

[justme]

it reminds me of why I don't want to go back into providing

See, and some people say JAG is a bad thing.

Hmm, screw the providor reviewing client idea, I wanna see an ex-providor reviewing a client's posts/reviews.

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by justme
it reminds me of why I don't want to go back into providing

See, and some people say JAG is a bad thing....

good 'thinking-like-a-lawyer', justme ;)

[Slinky Bender]

"I wanna see an ex-providor reviewing a client's posts/reviews"

At least it wouldn't lead to any controversy. :o

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by slinkybender
"I wanna see an ex-providor reviewing a client's posts/reviews"

At least it wouldn't lead to any controversy. :o


it would only take one 'little' controversy to get UG to over 3000 posts :)

[Rufus Moses]

Guy....

PUHLEESE STOP SAYING "THIS THING OF OURS"...

Its driving me fucking crazy...

thank you...

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by Rufus Moses

Guy....

PUHLEESE STOP SAYING "THIS THING OF OURS"...

Its driving me fucking crazy...

thank you...

who's 'in denial' now?

ciao ;)



[Edited by guy catelli on 02-07-2001 at 08:46 AM]

[Rufus Moses]

As in using a facade of romance to rationalize whoring?




[Note: Originally the post above said:

"Rufus, please stop defending the indefensible"

But then a full day after my rejoinder GC changed his post so as to deflect my response and falsify the context. wanker.]

[Edited by Rufus Moses on 02-07-2001 at 11:50 PM]

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by Rufus Moses

As in using a facade of romance to rationalize whoring?

Judge to John Gotti, Sr.: "You're either very smart -- or very crazy."

Gotti: "Your Honor, can't I be both?"



ps: just 57 posts til UG hits 3000. ;)

[Edited by guy catelli on 02-07-2001 at 12:11 AM]

[fletch]

Rufus, 11:42 PM post:

Thank you.

Rufus, 11:56 PM post:

Thank you.

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by fletch
Rufus, 11:42 PM post:

Thank you.

Rufus, 11:56 PM post:

Thank you.



how fortunate for you that Rufus Moses has the courage of your convictions. ;)

[Edited by guy catelli on 02-07-2001 at 08:49 AM]

[HornDogBuddah]

GC -- RM usually has his own points to make as well as the ability to articulate them without help from any of us. When he (or anyone else) posts something with which I agree, I'm usually content to sit back and forego a similar posting. Sometimes, however, I want to applaud or at least acknowledge strong agreement. To add weight, as it were. It definitely is nice when someone else has the courage of my convictions. Not that I lack courage, it's sometimes just a matter of laziness.

And BTW, I applaud RM's most recent postings.

[Geezy Muldoon]

money.

[Edited by Judge Crater on 07-25-2001 at 02:57 PM]

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by Judge Crater
K.S.:

The occassional independent with few appointments is most prized among jaded, intelligent, understanding hobbyists. Her regulars get to know her as a person and like her for who she is and become very contented with the arrangement without all the downsides you mention. Give it a try again if that is what you really want to do and could use the money.

i concur.

[K.S.]

"Doesn't ANYBODY find it strange that a provider who EVERYONE claims to have totally left the business is lurking on a board where prostitutes and their talents or lack of are discussed?

I mean any mention of Kimberly Sweets' name was almost immediately deleted from another board. Her name was forbidden to be posted.

So Kimberly, if you are still lurking here, WHAT'S up with THAT?"

It's my one-year anniversary, that's what! (One year of being a normal person).

A year ago, everybody HAD to shut up. There was a little situation, but that's all over. I don't care, now.

I've moved, I've changed my hair color, I'm outta there - so it doesn't matter if people talk about my past persona.

Somebody else was right - it's amusing to lurk and listen. I do it once every two or three months. Yesterday, I lurked, learned about this forum and the complaints some people have with it, so I came over to check out the thread under discussion. Also, when I was at JAG, I got my usual dose of "Why I don't ever want to go back." Not that it's all bad - but there's just enough nastiness to remind me that that attitude is much more normal than immediately apparent. Certainly more so than we're allowed to see on ***.

Lately, I've been generally curious about, and a wee bit defensive of, the whole notion of "the Slut." Like, when somebody gets all bent out of shape about Britney Spear's and calls her a "slut." I always want to say "You say that like it's a bad thing!" (Britney was foolish to brag about her virginity - she didn't realize that there's nowhere good to go from there.) Anyway - I wonder why women are called sluts and hated when all they're doing is not being niave and prudish.

Candide: you're funny! I don't wanna be a weird old tart, no. Coming back would be - well, a step back. I like my job a lot, and it pays pretty well. I keep getting raises and promotions, and I see a future with a lot of exciting options. You're right - I'm not budgeting that well. I do OK, and my needs are simple, but I still wish I had more play money. You know, though, last year I had tons of money piled up in wads and I didn't spend it because there wasn't anything I really wanted! LOL! Actually - the solution is simple: if I stop taking taxis home every night, I'll save a ton of money. (Note to self: twenty subway rides a month = 1.5 one-hour sessions in savings.)

Everyone else, thanks for the offers. I'll consider them. Right now, however, I've got a real sweetie pie boyfriend. That's where I'm at.

OK - I've gone on quite long enough! (Especially now that I know I can't trick Aristotle into posting his email. Sigh....)

[Edited by K.S. on 02-07-2001 at 12:49 PM]

[Stanley Schwarz]

KS - don't know who you are, but that makes no difference.

But to be honest, here are my feelings on some of your issues.

2. Yes, we can be critical, but that is what it is all about. We know you are lurking, but I am not going to turn into Kiss ass Carl or a Romantic Guy. I know I sound rude, but I work hard and a $300 session is tough to come buy so I appreciate blunt honesty as opposed to wasting my cash. Car companies don't appreciate consumer reports either when they are criticized.

4.Sometimes us pots call the kettles black.

5. Well, I personally am not into an SP's personal details unless they want to share (again, sounds crude, but if I wanted to talk, I'd stay home) but different guys will have different levels of tolerance for verification processes. We don't always know where this information could end up. This is, afterall, a black market and we do get fearful of blackmail and LE too.

6.Ethics and morals. there is enough irony in that debate. no need to comment.

7. It would be tough to categorize most JAG members, but remember, they are the same people who are whistling dixie up all of the provders asses here becasue they think they can get on your good side and maybe get a freebie. That being said, you must remember that a majority of the men that go to a prostitute have some issue with women. Are you surprised that many men think all women are capable of whores?

8. Hey, I like a good looking woman with a good personality that puts out, but there are some guys who like to be pissed on or given it from a hemaphrodite. So what's your point? Did you think we are normal or something?

Point 5 and your second paragraph here. Somewhat of a cntradiction. You assert your personal info and yet you criticize men who want to know it. (I may be reading a little to much into this, forgive me).

I have an advanced degree from a prestigious school. And that makes me what? (an open solicitation for a rag) Isn't the point of all this stuff that we forget who we are for a little while? If you want to have sex with a couple guys, just make sure they don't know the JAG secret handshake.

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by K.S.
"Doesn't ANYBODY find it strange that a provider who EVERYONE claims to have totally left the business is lurking on a board where prostitutes and their talents or lack of are discussed?

I mean any mention of Kimberly Sweets' name was almost immediately deleted from another board. Her name was forbidden to be posted.

So Kimberly, if you are still lurking here, WHAT'S up with THAT?"

It's my one-year anniversary, that's what! (One year of being a normal person).

A year ago, everybody HAD to shut up. There was a little situation, but that's all over. I don't care, now.

I've moved, I've changed my hair color, I'm outta there - so it doesn't matter if people talk about my past persona.

Somebody else was right - it's amusing to lurk and listen. I do it once every two or three months. Yesterday, I lurked, learned about this forum and the complaints some people have with it, so I came over to check out the thread under discussion. Also, when I was at JAG, I got my usual dose of "Why I don't ever want to go back." Not that it's all bad - but there's just enough nastiness to remind me that that attitude is much more normal than immediately apparent. Certainly more so than we're allowed to see on ***.

Lately, I've been generally curious about, and a wee bit defensive of, the whole notion of "the Slut." Like, when somebody gets all bent out of shape about Britney Spear's and calls her a "slut." I always want to say "You say that like it's a bad thing!" (Britney was foolish to brag about her virginity - she didn't realize that there's nowhere good to go from there.) Anyway - I wonder why women are called sluts and hated when all they're doing is not being niave and prudish.

Candide: you're funny! I don't wanna be a weird old tart, no. Coming back would be - well, a step back. I like my job a lot, and it pays pretty well. I keep getting raises and promotions, and I see a future with a lot of exciting options. You're right - I'm not budgeting that well. I do OK, and my needs are simple, but I still wish I had more play money. You know, though, last year I had tons of money piled up in wads and I didn't spend it because there wasn't anything I really wanted! LOL! Actually - the solution is simple: if I stop taking taxis home every night, I'll save a ton of money. (Note to self: twenty subway rides a month = 1.5 one-hour sessions in savings.)

Everyone else, thanks for the offers. I'll consider them. Right now, however, I've got a real sweetie pie boyfriend. That's where I'm at.

OK - I've gone on quite long enough! (Especially now that I know I can't trick Aristotle into posting his email. Sigh....)

[Edited by K.S. on 02-07-2001 at 12:49 PM]

email me -- it won't hurt, i *promise* ;) -- gcatelli@yahoo.com

[jmcurry]

you must remember that a majority of the men that go to a prostitute have some issue with women. Are you surprised that many men think all women are capable of whores?

To what type of "issue" do you refer? Just curious.

[Stanley Schwarz]

JM - I know what mine is, do you yours?

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by Stanley Schwarz
...

if you are the poster formerly known as 'SS', thank you for changing your screen name :)

[jmcurry]

Originally posted by Stanley Schwarz
JM - I know what mine is, do you yours?

SS: I was merely inquiring about your post. I certainly have a personal sense of my reasons for my involvement in the "hobby." I was attempting to ascertain what you meant in your ealier post. If I am applying a semiotic interpretation to an otherwise innocent email, please forgive me.

[Stanley Schwarz]

I'm not the SS you think I am. I did not realize that was what I was doing. Maybe I should change the name.

JM, I gues my use of the word "issue" is a bit too vague. I think that if I were to try to expand upon it, we would be here a long time. My 9th grade comp. teacher was on my case about the word "things". I never use it anymore.

-Semiotic? How?

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

Rubbernecking is the great American hobby.

Go on any interstate. Traffic slows in both lanes regardless where the accident has happened.

There is some characteristic in us all that makes us look at the misfortune of others. I'm starting to believe that we've become so detached from our emotions in this life that we need something to pierce the layers and layers of self imposed emotional protection on occasion to help us feel again. It's our feelings that separate us from other animals in the kingdom...and we're ignoring these gifts and throwing them away like everything else in this disposable society.

We're bombarded on a constant basis with bad news, that we cope by blowing things off and it's making us cold and uncaring as a society.

We tune into the Extreme Football League to watch some guy get creamed on a punt.....

We seek out sexual activities that outdistance our best memories.....

We want to see if anybody captured the gunman shooting at the WhiteHouse on video just to see if anybody has the moment the bullet shatters the knee on video...

We're in pursuits to feel 'good' and we really have to work at that to get past all of the less than good we've been storing up in our hearts and souls.

Guys slam providers, providers disrespect clients. It's a sign of the times.

I don't know what is worse....lurking on a board like *** where the truth is censored to protect providers who send him cash for banner ads or lurking on a board where pent up anger spews out over a less than expected session as it does on JAG.

Cyberspace is a funked up place. It shows that people are always talking behind peoples backs. And that sewer water is gonna splash back on us all at one point or another.

Before I got closed out of JAG...I found it amazing how the JAG posters were complaining of the ass kissing that happens here. There are some very angry men. And as they lurk here, might I suggest you take about 3 appointments worth of funds and invest into some concentrated therapy to find out why.

[fletch]

Speaking of which, how is the knee, Guy?

[Slinky Bender]

What makes you think they only lurk here ?

[Ozzy]

1 eye, great post....especially the last paragraph.

[Candide]

quote -- "You're funny"

right back at ya K.S. :)

Other than cutting back on cabs - 1. think about selling a few poems [$1,000 prizes available at poetry.com] 2. Have a stoop or garage sale - very popular these days 3. Sew a quilt and sell it to ABC Carpet in NYC for a few $1,000 - that store is nuts - they sell hand made pillows for $1,000! But they actually get people to buy them!

If you're using cabs that often you must be working (in any capacity) for a law firm :) Take the cabs Honey! Things will fall into place. You're unstopable and doing great!

"A step back"...you said it sister. It makes me happy to hear your "normal" voice, K.S. I've been "normal", myself, for 15 months, and while sometimes life can be acrid and dull - I feel like a successful 12 step program poster child :) and going back is always there, a possibility, sometimes a scary one which haunts, like the fear of a "bender" haunts others with different problems... sometimes it's more benign but still sad - like when I'm talking to a guy at work and suddenly I realize he reminds me of a once dear client who I miss badly. But I know I don't HAVE to step back cause life is so full of outlets for ALL my talents. :)

What you did reminds me of that call to a friend or a "sponsor" that people struggling with an "addiction" use as a safe guard. You are smart in your insights, your instincts, and your judgements...I, personally, thank you for posting your thoughts - you are right on K.S! And you should be damned proud of yourself, you are doing so well and feeling strong...That isn't so common. All the very Best to you K.S., honey, now and always - C.

[Candide]

P.S.

"...acrid and dull..." is a favorite quote from Proust's "A la recherche du temps perdu"; Swann, describing in his own words, his life before he met the beautiful courtesan (a.k.a whore, slut, cocotte, etc.) Odette de Crecy. An interesting book for those with questions about mixing whoring and romance - though the movie "Swann In Love" with Jeremy Irons is perhaps much better if you want a happy ending with no ugly people or reality involved :)

[K.S.]

Philly JAGsters: I got no problems with perversion dressed up in classical garb - so long as you don't start talking about pools full of "little minnows." But, seriously - what IS it with you people? You're like "Hmmmm.... poor, dumpy woman in NE Philly does $60 threesomes with her rather plain and hopeless daughter? - schaaaa-wing!" Yeah - you go right ahead. And you though Taylor Li was messed up?

I respect everyone's posts about JAG - somebody emailed me and explained that, just as much as you all pretend to be Don Juan here and on ***, you put on a jaded, wordly facade on JAG. I understand that. When I was working at The Golden Gypsy in Berkeley, one would NEVER come out of a room, glowing, and say "HE was so COOL!" Nope - you had to go "That mutha fucka was OK for a coupla Franklins" and then go light a cigarrette.

My God, the best thing about the Real World are the Happy Hours. Talk to you later.

[justme]

Hmm, I like the idea of a cynical facade as the dual to the overacted seducer. I definitely have fealt at times that certain JAGsters get off on the notion of being jaded. Being jaded sucks. Irony and cynicism are the tools of those too lazy to actually go out and create (with a nod to the FH mirror for insulting irony).

I've been impressed with the candidness of some of the posts on here. In fact I'll go one step further and say I've been very surprised. There does seem to be a little normalization between the JAG/*** poles. Although it would be ignoring reality to say that any of us have completely put down the masks and embraced honesty in its totality.

[Ozzy]

KS, great post. i like your honest views and hope you hang around UG to post more of them.

and TL is more than messed up. if she had your attitude for the biz or half your honesty she'd be unbeatable......

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by K.S.:
.... somebody emailed me and explained that, just as much as you all pretend to be Don Juan here and on ***, you put on a jaded, wordly facade on JAG.

let's just say that both of these roles are far less of a 'stretch' for some than for others ;)

btw, during my 9 months or so of unofficial and informal 'klanwatch' at JAG, i noted there were a number of mature members with correspondingly mature attitudes.

I understand that. When I was working at The Golden Gypsy in Berkeley, one would NEVER come out of a room, glowing, and say "HE was so COOL!" Nope - you had to go "That mutha fucka was OK for a coupla Franklins" and then go light a cigarrette.

yes, but you understand that, because it is only too obvious and because you have witnessed, and experienced, too much contrary evidence to universalize from public 'trashtalking' to every private encounter in the entire relevant population.

apparently, this is much too subtle a point for many of the most vocal of them to grasp.

and, there is the more troubling fact that, as in analogous cases of willed mistrust and misunderstanding, many in this category will only entertain data that supports their prejudices, and insist (to themselves) that all contrary data is either mistaken or bogus. what's up with that!?!

[Edited by guy catelli on 02-10-2001 at 08:41 AM]

[guy catelli]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by justme:
Hmm, I like the idea of a cynical facade as the dual to the overacted seducer.

it's surely a more pleasant alternative to more serious self-examination on the part of one side.

I definitely have fealt at times that certain JAGsters get off on the notion of being jaded. Being jaded sucks.

hence, a great motivation to bitterly denounce those who are not. but, this is only one 'driver'. there are others, and it is these that are more troubling.

Irony and cynicism are the tools of those too lazy to actually go out and create (with a nod to the FH mirror for insulting irony).

assembling facts and connecting them with logic that is both coherent and relevant, and that does equal justice to the spirit as well as the letter of same, is a time- and energy-consuming burden.

one-liners that manifest contempt and ridicule are, by contrast, as cheap and easy as they are effective in distracting attention from what has actually been said.

I've been impressed with the candidness of some of the posts on here. In fact I'll go one step further and say I've been very surprised. There does seem to be a little normalization between the JAG/*** poles. Although it would be ignoring reality to say that any of us have completely put down the masks and embraced honesty in its totality.

to restate a point i made earlier in another thread: of course civilization is a 'facade'!!!

but, the alternative, barbarism, though it might be brutally honest (and your first point calls even that into doubt), is itself rather boring and uninteresting after the first hundred or so ruttings in the field or the alleyway.

"honesty in its totality", in the grownup world, is a guaranteed formula for a war of all against all. hence some form of 'diplomacy', however repellent its underlying pretensions and dishonesty when taken to excess, is the only realistic and practical alternative for grownups.


[Edited by guy catelli on 02-08-2001 at 05:52 AM]

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

Originally posted by K.S.
You're like "Hmmmm.... poor, dumpy woman in NE Philly does $60 threesomes with her rather plain and hopeless daughter? - schaaaa-wing!" Yeah - you go right ahead. And you though Taylor Li was messed up?





I know what you mean about all of the excitement over this situation in North Philly....clearly abusive and it bothered me. It's been my observation for a while that you can take the boy out of Kennsington, but you can't take Kennsington outta the boy.

And, I didn't just think Taylor is is messed up, I know.

But, let's not go there as it serves no great purpose.

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by justme
...I definitely have fealt at times that certain JAGsters get off on the notion of being jaded....

that is no doubt the case for "certain" of the lost little boys over there.

however, mr. pitiful's self-characterization, at *many* levels, is not without candor. in addition, his overwhelming preference for women with as little escorting experience as possible (a case of "likes" being attracted to "likes"), and his avoidance of ever seeing the same escort a second time leave no doubt that he is not 'fakin' a disdain for women generally.

[Edited by guy catelli on 02-10-2001 at 06:39 AM]

[fletch]

I'm starting to believe that Allen has written some kind of script that automatically generates a "guy reply" to:

*every justme post

*every other rufus post

* every third fletch post

[K.S.]

I just wanted to say that my comment about Taylor Li is in NO way based on my personal experiences with her. She was always kind and supportive to me, and has never done anything amiss that I actually know of. I was just sorta commenting on what I'd seen said about her here and there.

I'm at the office, where there is actual work to do, and I need to get outta here and clear my history! I'll be back to chat later!

xoxoKimberly

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

Originally posted by K.S.
I just wanted to say that my comment about Taylor Li is in NO way based on my personal experiences with her.

Well that makes sense Kimberly...you never had her threaten you to collect a cancellation fee.

Da bitch is crazy.

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

Originally posted by fletch
I'm starting to believe that Allen has written some kind of script that automatically generates a "guy reply" to:

*every justme post

*every other rufus post

* every third fletch post



Yep. In Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, there is a picture of Guy under the listing of the following words:

Verbose. Grandiose. Egocentric.

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by fletch
I'm starting to believe that Allen has written some kind of script that automatically generates a "guy reply" to:
*every justme post
*every other rufus post
* every third fletch post


i have a special concern, of long standing, with justme's guidance and education about life in general and this thing of ours in particular.

my online relationship with Rufus also goes back for some time. and, both of them frequently make substantive points that are related to issues that interest me, which alone would explain why i devote more attention to replying to their postings than to most others.

[Edited by guy catelli on 02-08-2001 at 10:18 AM]

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by One Eyed Trouser Trout ..........Yep. In Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, there is a picture of Guy under the listing of the following words:

Verbose. Grandiose. Egocentric. [/B]

the biographical entry in the latest (10th) edition for Gaius Valerius Catullus, after giving his approximate dates, states merely: "Rom. poet."

[Ozzy]

on taylor li....
i once looked into those eyes. i kind of got the same feeling as jodie foster, when she met dr lecther the first time.

[HornDogBuddah]

Ozzie -- interesting combination of Lecter and lecher.

[Ozzy]

i thought thats how it was spelled in the book.

[frog]

Lecter

[Ozzy]

see, i told you i don't read books. ;)

[guy catelli]

at last, a photo of Gerald -- note the nose!

http://images.rottentomatoes.com/images/movie/custom/93/10000093.jpg

[K.S.]

Candide, your message was soooo cool. I just didn't reply to it earlier because I haven't yet had time. My last promotion means I am now supervising people. This is scary, because I've always been a pretty autonomous person - just do my own thing. I basically created the entire multimedia department at my job, and now we've hired people to join me. They're all looking at me, wanting me to tell them what to do.

Like, I don't fucking know! Go... play solitaire or something until I am done with this and I can come over and talk to you. Jeez.

I rather like being "normal" because the money isn't as important as it used to be. Sure, I'd like to have a few hundred in my pocket at any given time, but I did realize last year that I no longer wanted things.

Last year, I went shopping with another escort in Philly and I didn't really find anything I wanted. She was just grabbing things off the racks and buying them without even trying them on. I used to do that.

One thing I am really, really happy to be done with is the reviews. I felt like I was always living in fear that if I didn't rock every single client's world, they'd go out and write a terrible review of me. I know that if you're good, you'll get good reviews and the occassional bad one didn't do any harm.

I didn't learn much from reading my own reviews, either. Well, there was one thing - unlike the rest of the world, I actually KNOW I give good head. Even the guys who hated me said I give good head. LOL!

OK - enough for now. People are giving me that "Whaddawe do now?" look.

[justme]

I rather like being "normal" because the money isn't as important as it used to be.

This is going to have a lot of parenthetical comments, but only because I'm so tactless and have no other way of getting at what I really am interested in knowing.

Would you say that materialism (not to call you materialistic) played a significant role in your decision to become and stay an escort? Also, you've hinted (or maybe I'm reading you wrong) at the 'hidden costs' associated with that particular job, furthermore you've implied (again could be my misread) that you've achieved a marginal increase in happiness since you left the business. Would you say that this happiness was made possible by a decrease in your materialistic expectations. Is the marginal happiness caused mostly from getting out of one business or getting into another?

Finally some questions which could be clasified under speculation and heresay (but I'm only looking for your opinion as an obviously bright individual who used to be on the other side)...

Would you say that materialism is a significant driver in most women's decisions to enter the field? Would you say most women could find greater fullfillment outside of the escort trade? Do you think that this happiness can only be found once a certain amount of materialism is let go?

[fletch]

Dude, Ashcroft didn't get that many questions...

[guy catelli]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by justme
..... I really am interested in knowing.

justme, please permit me, as a purely intellectual exercise, to investigate the possibility of 'symmetries' in relation to my own career shift.

Would you say that materialism (not to call you materialistic) played a significant role in your decision to become and stay an {'intellectual whore' for wall street}?

you can bank on it.

Also, you've hinted (or maybe I'm reading you wrong) at the 'hidden costs' associated with that particular job,...

indeed.

.... furthermore you've implied (again could be my misread) that you've achieved a marginal increase in happiness since you left the business.

correct.

Would you say that this happiness was made possible by a decrease in your materialistic expectations.

no; my materialistic expectations have not diminished a single farthing. my increase in happiness on the margin is purely a function of being treated by my patrons less like a beast of (intellectual) burden, and more like a 'collaborator'.

Is the marginal happiness caused mostly from getting out of one business or getting into another?

see above.

......

Would you say that materialism is a significant driver in most women's decisions to enter the field?

i would say that materialism is the only driver on wall street.

Would you say most women could find greater fullfillment outside of {wall street}?

based upon many off-the-record discussions about this specific issue, i would say, unequivocally, that any human being would find greater fulfillment outside of wall street.

Do you think that this happiness can only be found once a certain amount of {horniness} is let go?

sure; but, absent surgery, i have no idea of how to go about that.

[justme]

To be clear, I am quite aware that the effects of materialism can be felt in other discipline choices, say law. But this isn't a web site devoted to the issues surrounding the legal community. As much as that's the case, I'm interested in hearing from a former escort about what she sees as the effect of materialism on her career choice.

Moreover, this particular woman has stated that money isn't as important to her, which to me implies that she has had a change of heart re materialism.

And yes, fletch, I know I'm asking a lot. I always ask for a lot, that way if I get half I'm still overjoyed.

[K.S.]

I can't answer all those questions.

Materialism isn't really a path to happiness. Of course a materialistic person will be happier when they drop the materialism. I do make a real effort to do so - I won't read Vogue, architectural digest, etc. and I avoid shopping malls except at Xmas.

Happiness, though, is something you're just born with. Unless you're in an extreme circumstance (like Auschwitz or something) you're gonna be as happy or unhappy as you were born to be.

If I'd stayed in the business I would have been made unhappy by it, but I still have things about which I am unhappy.

I think you asked me if I am happy because I'm less materialistic or because I'm out of the business. Both, but they overlap in some ways. I wouldn't have stayed in for so long if it weren't materialism. But, then, I didn't ever spend my money on "stuff." I never owned a car, for example. I could never even get myself to buy a cashmere sweater set - I just couldn't do it. I did go to Europe a few times, and I was also able to go to school full time while working. I had a lovely little apartment in a great location, all the pocket money I needed, trips to Europe during every break, and no worries about financial aid. That was pretty cool.

For a little while, I did enjoy having the money because I felt poor growing up. I just eventually ran out of things to buy. (That I was willing to buy).

There were nonmaterial reasons to be in the business. I think I used to have a pretty low self esteem, and getting paid for sex made me feel pretty and powerful. It was fun to explore that sort of stuff. I think it helped me to develop self esteem. I also liked the subculture of the massage parlor. I felt safe there, even though those people got on my last nerve a lot of the time. I felt kinda loved there, as if they were family, and I got to be "the smart one" rather than "the fuckup" I felt like in other groups.

(BTW, in case anyone is wondering about Berkeley's Golden Gypsy - so far as I know, I am the only Cal student to ever work there. And I worked there for several years before going to college. I knew a few women who went to school of one sort or another, and most of them were going strictly for vocational training.)

I've since learned to be in a normal job - I've certainly worked at real and legitimate jobs before, but I'm new at the sort of job where you are respected for what you know. Where you are given something for which you are accountable. People respect me where I work. They keep giving me praise and raises, and everyone comes to me for advice. (I give great advice - one thing I learned in the massage parlor was how to get what you want, and how to make people want what you want.) If a coworker is upset, they take me out to lunch and tell me everything. They trust and respect me personally and professionally.

I think I'm happy mostly because I can interact with normal people normally. I have a really, really wonderful boyfriend and really great friends. Even though I'm not loaded, I have a decent income, and I live simply. I go out to eat with friends, go to the occassional charity event, have fun. Yeah, I'm really happy. I probably wouldn't be happy if I'd stayed in the business.

(I love you, too, Mr. Pitiful. But, you do realize that you're now guilty of trading fluffballs on JAG? They just may kick you out for that!)

[Edited by K.S. on 02-09-2001 at 04:49 PM]

[Slinky Bender]

I'm getting this strange Deja Vu with this thread and the movie Frequency.

[Ozzy]

you mutha f*cking hypocrite! ;)

[Ozzy]

pounced on this the same time, SB

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by slinkybender
I'm getting this strange Deja Vu with this thread and the movie Frequency.

it's starting to sound like Final Analysis to me.

[Phantom]

SB,

Just to make it easy for Mr.P maybe you should start a thread only for KS to pose questions to him that she can not post on JAG. And to answer Mr.P's questions here. Since it is VERY obvious that there is ALLOT of cross posting between KS and Mr.P here and on JAG.

[K.S.]

We're just joking around. He was just fooling around a bit on JAG - maybe trying to goad me into posting there - and I was teasing him.

He can talk to me directly here. As can everybody. Sorry If I don't email everyone who asks me to - I just pop in real quick when I've got a minute at work. Email would just be too much.

[Ozzy]

how did that love boat theme go again.......

love is in the air... ... ...




[Edited by Ozzy on 02-09-2001 at 06:52 PM]

[guy catelli]

now i'm nauseus!

[Ozzy]

it's ok guy.......she only wants him for his body anyway.


if she wanted someone who was gonna bend her over in a filthy subway train, we all know she'd pick you.

[Phantom]

....or in an alley.

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by justme: To be clear, I am quite aware that the effects of materialism can be felt in other discipline choices, say law....

then does your view of lawyers differ significanty from your view of escorts? and, if so, why?

[Ozzy]

then does your view of lawyers differ significanty from your view of escorts? and, if so, why?
[/B]


good thing you didn't ask me this question......


i happen to rank escorts way above lawyers......but then again i rate lawyers somewhere between car thieves and crack dealers.....


well not all of them obviously......but divorce lawyers and litigation lawyers, definitely lower that a car thief.

[fletch]

...until you need one, of course.

[justme]

KS - Thanks...

I disagree strongly with the notion of predestined happiness. BUt then I disagree strongly with the notion of predetermination in general.

But of course it occurs to me that we may be using slightly different flavors of the term happiness. Perhaps I should be more precise, but I don't think I'll start here...

I never meant to imply that the business itself would cause you to be 'unhappy', I more wanted to know if its net effect on your life was one of added or reduced happiness. Clearly (I think), this is a difficult question as it imvolves several different aspects to consider. However, I think I can kinda glean from your response the more relevant factors.

I think I should remember, too, that in some senses I've asked you to compare apples and oranges. Had you been able to work the kind of job that you are currently occupied with and attended to studies at Bezerkly then maybe you would have chosen a different path. However, what I see is that escorting enabled you to do several things that you would not have been able to do had you, say, interned at an insurance agency. Some oi those things are grounded in materialism, while others seem to be somewhat more 'noble'. And it's this apples and oranges comparison which allows you to say that you wouldn't be happy right now doing what you were doing - allowing, of course, for personal development between when you were escorting and now.

If you want you can look up an old thread on JAG which was titled something like, 'Why do they do it?' I don't even remember if I ever posted to it, but over the couple years of online hobby discourse I've given it some thought. I've always felt that materialism often played some role in the decision and that's why I jumped at your quote. Actually, there are hints in some of my other ideas in your response, but in appreciation of your honesty I'll leave you alone (for now).

Let me throw some fluff (hopefully without being accused of imitation)...

I felt poor growing up - I can't tell you how much my esteem for you rose by your use of 'felt' rather than 'was'.

P.S. - Not that anyone cares, but my desire to understand the motivation of escorts (not that there is any model that applies universally) is that I think it'ss get me a little closer to understanding my own decisions in all of this.

GC - I'll answer that question in two ways:

When I'm talking to a lawyer on a professional basis, I want him to be completely attentive to my legal needs without any need for personal warmth or conversation (that he undoubtedly will bill me for at his rediculously high rates).

It is rediculous to suppose that just because I believe that materialism plays a (relatively high?) role in the career decisions of both escorts and lawyers that I might not understand that there are other motivations which might differ between the two and that these motivations might make some difference as to how I feel about escorts and lawyers.

[hot4chicks]

Can a thread discussing Andre Malraux or The Celestine Prophecy be far away?

h4c, who still doesnt understand why these threads get so long

[framl]

I'm surprised nobody has asked yet---are you paying the $120 a year for a JAG membership, or did you get in with fake reviews?

If you used fake reviews, how did you decide who to review, since you can't review KS any more?

Just curious about how people do these things; I've always assumed plenty of providers were listening in!

[Ozzy]

fake reviews or not, you still need to pony up $120 to get full access.............





well......in most cases.

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by framl
I'm surprised nobody has asked yet---are you paying the $120 a year for a JAG membership, or did you get in with fake reviews?

If you used fake reviews, how did you decide who to review, since you can't review KS any more?

Just curious about how people do these things; I've always assumed plenty of providers were listening in!

sometimes jag members give their password and id to escorts. one gave his to 5 different escorts, including if i recall correctly, to Adriana w/1 Neuron -- with much ensuing folly as a consequence thereto ;).

[Stanley Schwarz]

Sometimes UG members write misleading reviews in order to get a discount. Do you expect to find ethics on these boards?

[Slinky Bender]

Stanley,
There's almost no reviews here. Do you mean UG board members write these "misleading reviews" here, or other places, to get these discounts? If here, I'd be curious for you to point them out ( should be easy to find amoung the what, 6 reviews so far ? ).

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by guy catelli
Originally posted by justme: To be clear, I am quite aware that the effects of materialism can be felt in other discipline choices, say law....

then does your view of lawyers differ significanty from your view of escorts? and, if so, why?


Originally posted by justme
GC - I'll answer that question in two ways:

When I'm talking to a lawyer on a professional basis, I want him to be completely attentive to my legal needs without any need for personal warmth or conversation (that he undoubtedly will bill me for at his r(i)diculously high rates).

It is r(i)diculous to suppose that just because I believe that materialism plays a (relatively high?) role in the career decisions of both escorts and lawyers that I might not understand that there are other motivations which might differ between the two and that these motivations might make some difference as to how I feel about escorts and lawyers.

if you hire a lawyer, in part, for her time and companionship, you certainly should care about her personal warmth. if, on the other hand, you are only interested in having sex with your lawyer, why are you paying 'r(i)diculously high rates' to her?

it is well known that only a small percentage of the nonprosecutorial bar could make a living by exclusively advocating impartial truth. in other words, in most cases, a defense attorney (civil or criminal) is a 'liar 4 hire'.

my point is: a 'liar 4 hire' is not all that is interesting or worthwhile about the attorney/client relationship. some might think that it is; but, i don't -- and perhaps you would agree. if lawyers can be more than the sum of their economic calculations, why can't escorts?

btw, please respond by substituting 'therapist' for 'lawyer', which i think is a far more relevant analogy than lawyer, bartender, cab driver, etc ;). also btw, from what i read, mainstream therapy, like mainstream 'romance', is rarely given away for free.



[Edited by guy catelli on 02-16-2001 at 09:42 AM]

[K.S.]

I'm sorry, but I won't say how I got access to JAG. There are some VERY smart guys over there, and I think it would be a fun (and fair) game for them to catch me.

There's not much going on over there, lately. $120 is pretty steep, and I think that's put a huge dent in their membership.

Ahhh...remember the good old days when only bright people had Internet access? Clients who'd heard about you from review sites were almost always good.

I used to print out reviews and take them to the Golden Gypsy to share with all the other girls. They were shocked and amazed.

[justme]

Is this the correct place to point out that the first people with 'net access were the military?

Although, I agree that the level of discourse on-line took a major hit in '95 when Prodigy hit the scene.

ridiculous.

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by justme
Is this the correct place to point out that the first people with 'net access were the military?

see: http://www.internetvalley.com/intval1.html

Originally posted by justme
ridiculous.

how were spelling, punctuation, grammar, paragraphing, etc., pre-Prodigy?

what i would find interesting is a history of cyberscorting. i have read, elsewhere, other escorts thanking DoD for being the pioneer in this area. but, that may be a localized phenomenon.

oh, justme, i came upon an unfamiliar word yesterday: "eldritch."

[Edited by guy catelli on 02-16-2001 at 01:05 PM]

[Julienyc]

Originally posted by K.S.
1. That I really wanna meet Aristotle.
2. That most men, when they're not trading fluff, are pretty damn harsh on providers.
3. That these same men can be pretty understanding and intelligent.
4. That they think providers are fucked up and stupid psychos.
5. That they think every single detail of a provider's life is their business, but god forbid a provider should try to protect herself by checking an ID or something.
6. That they have a wide range of what they find ethical and acceptable.
7. That they think ALL women are at least potential whores, and that rather than taking this to mean that being a whore must therefore be a logical thing, they believe that ALL women are therefore bad.
8. That some men are really looking for a great experience with an attractive woman who at least seems to like him, but others are only out to see just how depraved and cheap an experience can be.

I've been evesdropping on JAG for over a year now - ever since I was a provider. I go back once in a while because it's damned entertaining, and it reminds me of why I don't want to go back into providing.

I know that if I did, the JAG board would fairly hum with gleeful speculations on how I must have failed at being a normal person, or how I'm a dumb, lazy, greedy psycho slut who just can't get up off her back. This would be especially true since I told people have a college degree from a prestigious school, and many people assumed I was lying, a la Educated Escort.

It's a shame, though, because I sometimes think it could be fun to see a client or two a week. I MISS the sex, I MISS the excitment, and I could use a couple hundred extra a week.

It sounds like you really miss the BIZ and this is a way to stay involved. It is like any relationship, you vent to your friends but you still love your partner. It is just a place for men to express themselves and maybe you should start a women only site (wait and see what is said on that !!!