An Ode to hvb

[Towely]

You know, I’d forgotten all about hvb until jras posted a reminder.

But now... Ah, distinctly I remember, it was in the bleak December...


Once upon a midnight dreary, while I web surfed, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious PMB of forgotten lore—
While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a yapping,
As of someone loudly crapping, crapping on the PMB floor
“Tis some soccer mom”, I muttered, “yapping, crapping on the floor-
Only this and nothing more.”

At once I thought to give her battle, but couldn’t understand her prattle
I thought that I could read her posts and somehow learn some more
But quickly the entire board was then polluted with her logic so convoluted
Yet her constant flaming was not the least entertaining, and therefore -
hvb – these three poor letters became a dreaded eyesore
Nameless here for evermore.

Virtual pages I was turning, all my sour within me burning
Though her posts had little meaning – little relevancy bore
It was mostly babble, for which to rouse the rabble
Ever yet she posted on, shrill and strident, like the evil harpies of yore
I’d pray she’d finished, but no, there was always more and more and more
Soon the entire board I did deplore.

Who was this fiend, so vile, so full of hate and full of bile
With constant posting her fingers must be raw and sore
She claimed to be lawyer, but what fool would dare employ her?
She was instead but some desperate, bitter wannabee whore
It really didn’t matter, I merely wanted the bless-ed board back the way it was before
Only this and nothing more

Then the overwhelming urge to do a Von Bingen purge
I thought I might leave the board and depart for some distant shore
But then I blocked her prose, ever hateful, with Ignore, for which I’m grateful
Blocked her then, and blocked her now for evermore
One command with such vast power, the single word Ignore
My sweet, sweet, sweet Ignore

[Dondee]

bravo!

[jras]

encore encore

[vermeer]

I am so moved by your poetic effort that, should we ever meet, I will be happy to buy you a $5 blowjob, from the whore of your choice.

[jp1064]

Great poem! I wish her well.

[BigMadM]

I must be in the minority, but I miss her. And enjoyed her posts,

[Down Low]

Towely, my hero, get this guy a job at Hallmark!
Not to be a critic but don't you mean a soccer mom's mom?

BMM are you telling me you always understood what she was dribbling about?

Vermeer he deserves better than that....I'll thrown in $15 with your $5.

After readin the title to this thread for some reason it reminds me of Jim Morrison:

Lament to my cock

[BigMadM]

no , there was alot of shit I dont understand, and not only HVBs post, I never claimed to be the smartest guy on this board, and I want to post something, but I wont. I also miss posters such as JL, JC, Pswope, Sean, Daniel, etc....btw, if you only have one post, how come you know I didnt understand some of her posts?

[Down Low]

Because she was a legend here wasn't she?
Well before jag got rid of her.
Then of course she found her way to Craigs list.

I finally found that button that translates languages and now she is gone, I'm so upset I could have zinged her back in a similar language so I can prove how worldly I am, and how much I know about mundane things. I am like you , grew up a regular run of the mill LI'er where we dont have too much pretenciousness, especially from the women. Well it's never admitted to their faces anyway! and we pronounce it Lawn Island!

[jiffy_squid]

I thought she was a highlight of the board. Along with Furniture and BMM. Though I must have missed her departure and any drama attendant to it, since I wasn't a routine visitor here.

[jseah]

Originally posted by Down Low
I am like you , grew up a regular run of the mill LI'er where we dont have too much pretenciousness, especially from the women. Well it's never admitted to their faces anyway! and we pronounce it Lawn Island!

It may not be a representive sample, but of the "city folk" that I know (and usually it is with the ones who moved into the city but grew up elsewhere) most tend to be very pretentious..... to the point where they sound like bougeois (sp?) snobs (i.e. unless you are overpaying for a fancy name on the label, it's not worth being seen in it).......

but on the positive side, if it wasn't for this attitude......you wouldn't have so many girls on CL selling themselves to support their lifestyle.....

BTW, isn't it pronounced Lawn Guyland?

[jseah]

FWIW, I never had a problem with hvb's existence on this board....sure she could be demeaning and condescending at times, and her tactical targeting of cat was over the top. But there are others here that post that at times have also gotten pretty mean, but they're still here.

Maybe someone should have taken the step to make her aware of her actions before things got so out of hand.

[jras]

Originally posted by jseah
Maybe someone should have taken the step to make her aware of her actions before things got so out of hand.
I dug her BS, but she knew what she was doing most of the time. She just couldn't control her vitriol or her oversized ego.

[jseah]

Originally posted by jras
I dug her BS, but she knew what she was doing most of the time. She just couldn't control her vitriol or her oversized ego.

Explain to me how hvb's attacks on cat (and chasing her all over the board) is any different from vermeer's hounding of Miki......

[jras]

to me hvb was a person
vermeer is just a cartoon

miki appears to be able to take care of herself
(vermeer would fuck her if she put on a hundred pounds and cut her rate in half)

[moneyshotsnj]

Originally posted by jseah
Explain to me how hvb's attacks on cat (and chasing her all over the board) is any different from vermeer's hounding of Miki......

Unless I am mistaken, vermeer has backed off a good bit, and miki has handled the whole thing well. And as harsh as he often was/is, vermeer is obviously a satirist

hvb was relentless and often cruel. she was personal and poured it on when cat didn't take it well.

That's how

[Woody]

It ruined this board and drove off many good posters.

Woody

[justme]

And now that she's gone they've all come back...

Oh, wait.

[jras]

Originally posted by justme
And now that she's gone they've all come back...

Oh, wait.
heh

[MetsSweepYankees]

Originally posted by Woody
It ruined this board and drove off many good posters.

Woody

They should get thicker skin. If you can't take a little locker room heat on a PMB board, how are you going to deal with the problems and challenges of real life?

[Wwanderer]

Imo, it is not accurate to attribute the decline of UG (which might even be measured objectively by the total posting rate) entirely (or even mostly) to hvb or to the hvb-cat thing, although one or the other might be the single most important and obvious examples of the problem. It seemed to me that this "decline" had begun before cb arrived and thus also before hvb's "second incarnation" here. What caused it I don't know; the moods of net communities drift around, and a particularly good one is more likely to get worse than to get better, of course.

Re MSY's comment - for most of who departed, it was not a matter of whether or not they could take "a little locker room heat"; they/we were not even directly involved in the "heat" for the most part. Rather it was a matter of whether or not the discussions on UG were interesting enough to hold one's attention (in competition with other options and sites).

-Ww

[BIGd]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Imo, it is not accurate to attribute the decline of UG (which might even be measured objectively by the total posting rate) entirely (or even mostly) to hvb or to the hvb-cat thing ...

...Rather it was a matter of whether or not the discussions on UG were interesting enough to hold one's attention (in competition with other options and sites).

-Ww

There are "other sites"?

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by Wwanderer

Rather it was a matter of whether or not the discussions on UG were interesting enough to hold one's attention (in competition with other options and sites).

-Ww


This was the issue with HVB.

I've been in many a flame wars and have watched many others... so what HVB did to CB (though allot of us didn't like it) wasn't what drove people away. Nor was it her conceited, pretentious behavior or how so many respected posters seemed to condone or excuse it.

NO…. What drove people away in droves was the fact that there wasn't an interesting discussion about this business that HVB didn't hijack and turn into something most of us had no interest in reading about..... HER!

Anyone who doesn't believe that and thinks she had nothing to do with the decline... well invite her back here and watch this place empty out again.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by BIGd
There are "other sites"?

You might want to have a seat before reading further.

Yes, and there are even sites not devoted to either prostitution or any other aspect of commercial sex.

(Don't tell anyone I told you, though.)

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Ozzy
she had nothing to do with the decline...

Did anyone say or does anyone think anything close to that?

-Ww

[jseah]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Did anyone say or does anyone think anything close to that?

-Ww

there were many posts during that timeframe that blamed her for "driving" posters away........

and of course there were the ones that actually voted in the poll that they are no longer posting specifically because of her.

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by Ozzy
This was the issue with HVB.

I've been in many a flame wars and have watched many others... so what HVB did to CB (though allot of us didn't like it) wasn't what drove people away. Nor was it her conceited, pretentious behavior or how so many respected posters seemed to condone or excuse it.

NO…. What drove people away in droves was the fact that there wasn't an interesting discussion about this business that HVB didn't hijack and turn into something most of us had no interest in reading about..... HER!

Anyone who doesn't believe that and thinks she had nothing to do with the decline... well invite her back here and watch this place empty out again. Ditto!

HvB even used to hijack threads that Kimmie had allready hijacked. Thats cold!

[Towely]

BTW, You got off easy PJ. I was contemplating a rather dubious rhyme combining Hombre with PJ, but I decided the poem was long enough already.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Towely
combining Hombre with PJ

The mind reels...

-Ww

[justme]

Originally posted by Ozzy
NO…. What drove people away in droves was the fact that there wasn't an interesting discussion about this business that HVB didn't hijack and turn into something most of us had no interest in reading about..... HER!

I suppose that means I can think of two posters who used to hijack just about every interesting thread and turn it into something about themselves making esoteric, intellectual allusions along the way.

Good thing neither of them are posting anymore.

Oh wait.

[moneyshotsnj]

Originally posted by pjorourke
Ditto!

HvB even used to hijack threads that Kimmie had allready hijacked. Thats cold!


Kimmie should hijack this thread

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by justme
I suppose that means I can think of two posters who used to hijack just about every interesting thread and turn it into something about themselves making esoteric, intellectual allusions along the way.

Good thing neither of them are posting anymore.

Oh wait.

The only other person I can think of who hijacked threads was Kimmie.... And she didn't do it with the regularity of HVB. Also, in her hijackings she at least stayed on or close to topic. I'd take twenty Kimmies posting here over one HVB any day of the week.


I don't know who the other or the two you're talking about are if K's not one of them... but if its the same person I'm thinking of..... He didn't hijack many threads and the bottom line is always what you bring to the board against what you take away from it.

In HVB's case, she brought very little to this board and she took away allot.

[justme]

I'm sure she felt like she took a lot away from the boards...

Define 'hijack', because I'm taking it to mean taking general control of the subject matter and flow of discussion through a large volume of posts.

(And if you don't think 'he' was accused of hijacking threads on UG with pretentious, self-involved posts than you weren't reading UG very carefully.)

((I still want to know why all those people who HvB 'chased away' aren't posting now that she's gone... because we know they're still reading.))

[justme]

I need to get my post counter away from teel speak, so I'll add that it's not that I don't think that HvB affected change at UG, I just think that every explanation offered so far fails to adequately distinguish her behavior from the behavior of any number of other posters.

So I find the explanations lacking.

[MetsSweepYankees]

Originally posted by justme
((I still want to know why all those people who HvB 'chased away' aren't posting now that she's gone... because we know they're still reading.))

Maybe they were all HvB.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme
I find the explanations lacking.

My (tentative) explanation is still the same as it was back when this was all happening:

http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=355635&highlight=selfreferential#post355635

Namely, when too large a fraction of the new material appearing on a site is self-referential, i.e., about the community itself and/or the members themselves and thus independent of anything beyond that little micro-world, net communities tend to decline. Partly I am just expressing my own tastes, but I have seen similar patterns in other net communities too. (Obviously, this very thread is a good example of such self-absorbed material.)

And, again, I do not think that hvb was anywhere close to being solely responsible for that trend on UG, but she did have a big impact in that direction because she posted in such volume and in so many threads and tended to drive the discussions onto exactly such self-referential tangents. (This was in her second UG incarnation; many of her contributions were quite different the first time, imo.)

-Ww

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by justme


((I still want to know why all those people who HvB 'chased away' aren't posting now that she's gone... because we know they're still reading.))

Wel plenty of them have returned and stated she was the reason they left. If you want to tell them they're wrong about that you welcome to try.

As for the other who haven't returned.... Maybe the don't lurk, maybe they've stayed away long enough that they don't wish to get involved again. At least a dozen or two have stated her as their reason for leaving.... It's not like the list of people who voted her was much more than that.

[justme]

So a dozen or two people out of 25,000 is responsible for the decline of UG?

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by justme
I need to get my post counter away from teel speak, so I'll add that it's not that I don't think that HvB affected change at UG, I just think that every explanation offered so far fails to adequately distinguish her behavior from the behavior of any number of other posters.

So I find the explanations lacking.


I didn't say her behavior was any different than say mine at times. But I never picked at a dead carcass the way she did to CB and she did it with an approving audience made up of her own peers encouraging her on by their silence or lack of being blunt enough to tell her to shut the fuck up!

But as I said... I weigh what one brings to the table in regards to what one contributes to this board and the reason it's here.... While I've added far more than my share... she brought very little if anything.



And I'll tell you the difference between her and me just as I told you and others 6 or 8 months ago.....


She was a goon.... same as I’ve often been called. But for the fact that she was an (psudo) intellectual, a woman, naive, confused, troubled.... whatever... it either disguised what she did or allowed everyone to make excuses for her behavior. I fucking wish I could repost some of the excuses given for her behavior under every one of my outbursts or muggings.

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by justme
So a dozen or two people out of 25,000 is responsible for the decline of UG?


You can't count the silent majority since they never speak.



But a dozen or two out of 100 or 200 posters... possibly.


A half dozen or so of the core everyday (more prolific) posters... Definitely.

[justme]

You can't have it both ways. I ask why there hasn't been a mass return and you say it's bevcause only a few people left. So then I say that a few people leaving wouldn't cause a decline in the board and you say that a bunch of people left. So now I ask you why there wasn't a mass return.

And I wasn't thinking about you when I said that her behavior was no different from that of other people.

[justme]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
And, again, I do not think that hvb was anywhere close to being solely responsible for that trend on UG, but she did have a big impact in that direction because she posted in such volume and in so many threads and tended to drive the discussions onto exactly such self-referential tangents.

I see this accusation about her a lot so I did a little numerical research.

The following summarizes the posts HvB made in her last month at UG

340 Total posts

57 Restaurants
55 Deceptive screen names
38 Lost in Translation
23 The Sopranos
22 When Whores backstab/badmouth other sexworkers
13 Back to the clinic :(
13 How might we measure the 5th estate?
12 did you ever wanna just grab her and rip off...
12 Two severed thumbs up!
11 Telling her

8 cloud 9 turned 21
8 The world's most respected whoreboard poster is almost at his
7 Ten Years After
7 Your current fuck fantsasy
6 run, don't walk
5 Cold calling on my cell
5 How Long can a thread remain HvB Free
5 The Power of UG
4 If you are stuck in a foxhole, who from this board, would you
3 What I have learned from my limited experience
3 What would make you stop posting again
2 hey you ac guys -- look at this
2 so sweet you make my mouth water
2 Things that totally destroy the mood

1 Oh Goodie, a New List
1 Breaking News 10:00PM Michael Jackson
1 Who is this?
1 Piercings and tatoos
1 Retirement-It's with great sadness.......
1 blog duj.our
1 great books
1 my long absence ends
1 Whatever happened to Cat_Ballou
1 Where Egos soar, vanity vanishes?
1 What was that all about?
1 Great Ad Copy
1 " so, why don't you give me your number?"
1 it's cinco de mayo
1 So you're saying that I SHOULDN'T fall in love with a Provider?
1 Dear justlooking
1 20+ years in the hobby...now this 1

[justme]

So she posted in 41 threads in that one month period. I have no easy way to find out the number of threads that existed for the same period, but in the last month there have been 333 threads posted to.

I think that we can agree that from mid April to mid May of this year there was more activity so she posted in at most 1/8th of the threads.

Moreover, 61% of her posts were contained to five threads and 79% were in 10.

Of those 10 threads 7 were off topic representing 211 or 62% of her posts.

I'm not sure that you can call that widespread, constant, hijacking. It shows that if she was disruptive to conversation, it was mostly off topic conversation. A poster who was too dumb to find his ignore button could nonetheless avoid 79% of what she posted by avoiding 3% of UG (and 44% by avoiding talking about Lost in Translation, eateries, and handle hijacking).

Now, if you want to argue about the negative effect that off topic posting has, I'll be happy to back that up. But that certainly isn't an HvB issue.

[BigMadM]

justme, thankyou, I often think I have way too much time on my hands to sit here and post.
Now I see Im in good company, or at least Im not alone.

[pjorourke]

So what are you proposing justme? A welcome back HvB party?

[MetsSweepYankees]

I have something to add. HvB posts contained 74,653,118 letters, 12.6% of which was the letter E.

[justme]

Originally posted by pjorourke
So what are you proposing justme? A welcome back HvB party?

No, I'm proposing a little intellectual honesty in our discussion of what precisley was problematic about her presence here.

[justme]

Originally posted by MetsSweepYankees
I have something to add. HvB posts contained 74,653,118 letters, 12.6% of which was the letter E.

That's the funniest thing you've ever posted.

[Casper]

Originally posted by Ozzy

NO…. What drove people away in droves was the fact that there wasn't an interesting discussion about this business that HVB didn't hijack and turn into something most of us had no interest in reading about..... HER!

And her s.o.

[justme]

Originally posted by pjorourke
So what are you proposing justme? A welcome back HvB party?

Originally posted by justme
No, I'm proposing a little intellectual honesty in our discussion of what precisley was problematic about her presence here.

And let's start with this: a welcome back HvB party would have absolutely no effect and you know it. She didn't stop posting because people complained or left. It's obvious she didn't think enough of our opinion of her to leave for that. And she didn't stop posting because Slinky banned her. So why did she stop posting? Maybe it had something to do with her personal information being splashed on Craig's List???

And as long as we're on the subject we should probably add that the general response to that posting of her personal information, that it was unfortunate but that she brought it on herself, probably has a lot to do with at least a couple of people who used to post here not posting anymore.

You know, if we really want to answer that question.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme
I see this accusation about her a lot so I did a little numerical research.
The following summarizes the posts HvB made in her last month at UG

It is always nice to have some facts, especially in the form of numbers, introduced into a discussion, but I wonder if her last month is at all representative of her overall posting patterns. She had well over 8000 posts between 10/02 and 5/04 (in about 19.5 months) if I read my search results correctly; however, for a bunch of those months she was absent, or nearly so, in her first hiatus. So, she was already tailing off in her overall level of activity. And by that time, many that left were already gone, I believe. It would be interesting to see how the numbers you posted compared to ones for a similar period during, say, the height of her "issues" with CB or during the time leading up to the CL wars. I definitely don't know, but my guess is that they would be pretty different.

Probably another reason that people's comments and recollections do not jive that well with your numbers is that UG actually consists of a bunch of partially overlaping sub-communities. There were probably active UG participants who rarely if ever encountered hvb because they did not read those 3% (or whatever) of the threads in which she was active. However, there were others, including some of the other very high volume posters, who tended to participate in exactly the same threads she did...or perhaps whose posts she particularly followed and so her presence correlated with theirs. For them, she was "everywhere", in effect.

Anyway, I agree with you that she was not unique in any entirely clear way and that "the decline" was not even nearly her doing alone. However, it seems difficult to believe that she did not have a major and perhaps unique role in it, even if we do not understand the exact mechanism. Too many once very active UGers explicitly identified her as spoiling the place for them to claim that she was essentially just like a lot of other players in the old UG crowd.

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme
That's the funniest thing you've ever posted.

I agree completely; it was even slightly amusing.

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme
a welcome back HvB party would have absolutely no effect

A long and active thread devoted just to her is far more likely to do the trick.

-Ww

[moneyshotsnj]

Originally posted by justme
No, I'm proposing a little intellectual honesty in our discussion of what precisley was problematic about her presence here.

WTF for?

I didn't know about her personal info being posted on cl. That could be enough for even that relentless bitch to go into hiding.

Good move to who ever did that and sent her wimpering away.

[justme]

OK, Ww you came up with an alternative theory.. now why don't you go back and validate it with some numerical data. As far as I'm concerened until someone can numerically present a better argument than I have, their criticism is simply pulling shit out of their ass - a long standing tradition on PMB's and the Internet in general. The thing is real discussion using real evidence is hard and most people aren't willing to do it. When I do it, I'm playfully derided for wasting my time. So the result is a bunch of self referentiall and self reiffying doscourse that has little to do with reality.

Which is fine if you acknowledge it as mental masterbation but becomes unreasonable when you try to represent it as facts.

Here's the thing: what I uncovered jives exactly with my recollection of her behavior. She tended to post hot and heavy in a few threads, but that has everything to do with her carrying on multiple conversations within those threads. I'd say an overwhelmin majority of her posts were in direct response to other people who posted at her. A lot of the reason she posted so much is because people on this board couldn't resist talking to her.

She'd post throwaway comments in a larger number of threads, but I find it incomprehensible that anyonbe could claim that they could not tune an isolated post out.

[justme]

Originally posted by justme
And as long as we're on the subject we should probably add that the general response to that posting of her personal information, that it was unfortunate but that she brought it on herself, probably has a lot to do with at least a couple of people who used to post here not posting anymore.

You know, if we really want to answer that question.

Originally posted by moneyshotsnj
WTF for?

I didn't know about her personal info being posted on cl. That could be enough for even that relentless bitch to go into hiding.

Good move to who ever did that and sent her wimpering away.

QED

[MetsSweepYankees]

Originally posted by moneyshotsnj
Good move to who ever did that and sent her wimpering away.

That's over the line. I don't care how much I hated somebody on a PMB (even if it was the most arrogant Yanker fan in the world), I'd never do something like that. How can somebody do that? Better yet, how was that person able to do it in the first place?

A Cliff notes description of this HvB character might help the uninformed (like me) to understand.

[Kimmie]

Originally posted by moneyshotsnj
Kimmie should hijack this thread

I can't.

My passport has been revoked!

[justme]

Originally posted by MetsSweepYankees
A Cliff notes description of this HvB character might help the uninformed (like me) to understand.

She was arrogant, judgemental, and unapologetic. She was fairly set in her ideas and would argue them to death. She had a tendency of attacking people, using ad hominem attacks that were sometimes well founded, instead of ideas. She almost never let popular opinion curb her posts.

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by justme
No, I'm proposing a little intellectual honesty in our discussion of what precisley was problematic about her presence here.

The people who left because of her had their reasons for doing so.


This is like the East cost and West cost blue state voters who woke up on Wednesday morning after the election reading the returns and murmuring into their coffee how could the mid American red state voters vote for Bush..... As if they didn't have their own valid reasons for doing so.

Just as blue state voters will never understand how red state voters came to vote for Bush... neither will those who defend and make excuses for HVB ever understand why so many of the “little people” felt the need to leave because of her.


And who knows exactly how many people left. The number I threw out there (a dozen or two) was just based on how many I've actually seen admit to her being a reason. There's probably a few times that amount who remain silent. There's at least a dozen who admitted that on a small board someplace with a hundred members... and that's just a sampling of a place like this with thousands of members. As far as returning.... It wasn't like I came back the day she left. Maybe some are still unsure the waters are safe, maybe some were just so fed up they may never return.

We also have almost no way of guaging the lurkers attendence or why they left.

[Stitch]

She would inv****bly destroy the threads that I found most interesting, turning them into occasions for narcisisstic preening. That's why I lost interest.

(One's own narcissism is, of course, endlessly fascinating. That of others grows tiresome.)

The thread now developing on GFE, for example...That would already be long gone....

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by justme
She was arrogant, judgemental, and unapologetic. She was fairly set in her ideas and would argue them to death. She had a tendency of attacking people, using ad hominem attacks that were sometimes well founded, instead of ideas. She almost never let popular opinion curb her posts.

So she was just like me....


So how come no one made excuses for my behavior or how I wasn't the detriment to this board that so many have claimed I was in the past?

[Kimmie]

Originally posted by Ozzy
I'd take twenty Kimmies posting here over one HVB any day of the week.




There's a fat joke in there..I just know it!!!

I actually liked hvb.

I think the problem here lies with the some of the ego driven men on this board.

Whenever there is a strong female presence that isnt selling herself to them, they cant handle it.

Put a girl on UG that talks about how much she loves to suck cock all day,and you have a successful female participant.

A john cant come to grips with the idea that there's women out there that dont just want their money, but are capable of being involved in real discussions..

Smart,knowledgeable women are a turn off (to some....most men)

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme

1 - OK, Ww you came up with an alternative theory.. now why don't you go back and validate it with some numerical data.

2 - Here's the thing: what I uncovered jives exactly with my recollection of her behavior. She tended to post hot and heavy in a few threads, but that has everything to do with her carrying on multiple conversations within those threads. I'd say an overwhelmin majority of her posts were in direct response to other people who posted at her. A lot of the reason she posted so much is because people on this board couldn't resist talking to her.

1 - If I can think of a way to do searches that reveal how self-referential posts were during one period vs another, I may well do it. I'd be interested in the results.

2 - Actually, that agrees with my recollection too and, imo, is consistent with my "theory" also. She sometimes turned threads into multiple conversations between herself and several different people, exchanges that were very often only about UG's internal "society", but as you will probably point out, she was not unique in doing so.

-Ww

[justme]

Originally posted by Ozzy
The people who left because of her had their reasons for doing so.

Just as blue state voters will never understand how red state voters came to vote for Bush... neither will those who defend and make excuses for HVB ever understand why so many of the “little people” felt the need to leave because of her.

As far as returning.... It wasn't like I came back the day she left. Maybe some are still unsure the waters are safe, maybe some were just so fed up they may never return.

We also have almost no way of guaging the lurkers attendence or why they left.

1. I can't disagree with that
2. You're absolutely correct. I will never be able to fully empathize with poor reasoning people.
3. It's been over half a year and as I mentioned to PJ, the reasons for her leaving haven't gone away.
4. But it's perfectly OK to assume that whoever left did so because of HvB?

The claim being made is that HvB had a large part in the decline in the number of posts at UG. Generally people claim that people were driven away from the board by her widespread prolific posting. I think I demonstarted that her hijacking has been widely overstated (although you, like Ww, are free to provide some numerical counterevidence if you'd like). My question is that if HvB was the difference maker, why is there still a difference after she's been gone for 12% of the life of the board?

The best answer I've gotten so far is that maybe people were too fed up to return.

Is that the best answer available?

[Ozzy]

You have no fucking clue what you're talking about. It has nothing to do with a women or an ego. April seemed to be a pretty strong female presence and equally opinionated as are you... and there's no line of men complaining about you in this thread is there?

You of all people should know better.... what with how HVB belittled all your sisters in arms just to show how much better she was than the typical hooker or how she wanted to chase every last women from this place so she'd have the complete attention of all the men.

Don't you get it... That's why she joined JAG. If you didn't read what went on at JAG you have almost no business offering an opinion like that about her here.

[justme]

Originally posted by Stitch
She would inv****bly destroy the threads that I found most interesting, turning them into occasions for narcisisstic preening. That's why I lost interest.

(One's own narcissism is, of course, endlessly fascinating. That of others grows tiresome.)

The thread now developing on GFE, for example...That would already be long gone....

So was it Restaurants, Lost in Translation, or Deceptive Screen Names that you found so utterly fascinating? Personally it was her take over of the "How might we measure the 5th estate?" thread that chased me away.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by MetsSweepYankees
That's over the line. I don't care how much I hated somebody on a PMB (even if it was the most arrogant Yanker fan in the world), I'd never do something like that. How can somebody do that?

I don't agree with much of what you post, but every once in a while, you are dead-on right imo. This is one of them. I regard outing someone as inexcusable...sort of the WMDs of PMBs, a threahold that should never be crossed by anyone.

-Ww

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by justme
1. I can't disagree with that
2. You're absolutely correct. I will never be able to fully empathize with poor reasoning people.
3. It's been over half a year and as I mentioned to PJ, the reasons for her leaving haven't gone away.
4. But it's perfectly OK to assume that whoever left did so because of HvB?




#2 pretty much sums up why you'll never understand.

[justme]

Originally posted by Ozzy
So she was just like me....

So how come no one made excuses for my behavior or how I wasn't the detriment to this board that so many have claimed I was in the past?

Ozzy, if you want to puprosefully forget the number of times that I've made posts on UG defending you than that's your own business.

What you might also ask is why is it that no one felt the need to write Ode's to Ozzy?

[justme]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
2 - Actually, that agrees with my recollection too and, imo, is consistent with my "theory" also. She sometimes turned threads into multiple conversations between herself and several different people, exchanges that were very often only about UG's internal "society", but as you will probably point out, she was not unique in doing so.

To me what's absolutley interesting is that while she wasn't unique in any of the things that people have thus far criticized her for, she is fairly unique in the degree of vitriol that her actions created.

What do you think of that moneyshotNJ post?

[Ozzy]

Because when I left I probably wasn't as hated as she was..... At least not by as many.

I also didn't see people (not a single person) popping back up on the board after I left saying that they left because of me.

[justme]

Originally posted by Ozzy
#2 pretty much sums up why you'll never understand. [/B]

I don't disagree. I will never understand why people take an unreasonable argument as true.

I will say this for myself, when someone shows me a good argument that contradicts a belief thaI have, I acknowledge it. I think that puts me in a very, very tiny group of whoreboard posters.

[justme]

Originally posted by Ozzy
Because when I left I probably wasn't as hated as she was..... At least not by as many.

I also didn't see people (not a single person) popping back up on the board after I left saying that they left because of me.

Didn't people claim in that poll that they did leave because of you?

Of course, I'd argue the same thing about your situation that I argue about HvB's. I think it's bullshit.

[justme]

Originally posted by justme
I will say this for myself, when someone shows me a good argument that contradicts a belief thaI have, I acknowledge it. I think that puts me in a very, very tiny group of whoreboard posters.

I wonder how many people disagree with the sentiment that I am one of the most rational and fair posters on UG. Maybe I'm just completely self-deluded.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Ozzy
I also didn't see people (not a single person) popping back up on the board after I left saying that they left because of me.

Irony: Didn't hvb herself leave (the first time) largely because of a battle with you (according to her)?! Or am I remembering it wrong?

-Ww

[justme]

No I believe it was largely Ozzy who claimed that.

[Stitch]

Originally posted by justme
So was it Restaurants, Lost in Translation, or Deceptive Screen Names that you found so utterly fascinating? Personally it was her take over of the "How might we measure the 5th estate?" thread that chased me away.

Not sure I quite understand you...The phrase "utterly fascinating" was just a wry reference to narcissism...

Anyway, I didn't mind when she wanted to talk about restaurants, movies, art, and so on, in threads devoted to those subjects. She was arrogant, but so what...But I didn't like it when she destroyed the threads that were peculiar to THIS BOARD, that is, the ones in which people puzzled over sexual behavior...She was so judgmental, self-admiring and scattered that she made an exploratory attitude impossible, especially among those who are not especially good writers but who still had valuable observations to make.

[jras]

I relished her banter because for much of that time I was out of the hobbying loop but still loved to BS with "fellow" degenerates. She was opinionated and plenty smart, and no more full of shit than most of us. I thought she did struggle and ultimately failed in her occasional efforts to communicate with supply-side gals on UG; she was condescending even when she she didn't mean to be. I was out of the country when she disappeared and was unaware of her being outed on CL. Who did it?

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by justme
Didn't people claim in that poll that they did leave because of you?

Of course, I'd argue the same thing about your situation that I argue about HvB's. I think it's bullshit.

That poll was put up six months after my last post on UG. I was pretty much forgotten by then. I also only received a few votes.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme

1 - To me what's absolutley interesting is that while she wasn't unique in any of the things that people have thus far criticized her for, she is fairly unique in the degree of vitriol that her actions created.

2 - What do you think of that moneyshotNJ post?

1 - I agree that what you say is accurate and that it is interesting, including in an abstract intellectual sense, largely because the penomenon is not unique to hvb or UG. Some people/personalities seem able to generate enormously stronger reactions from the majority of the people they encounter, whether it is in a net community or in real life (like at a party or in a workplace), than "ordinary people". And it is usually hard to see why in any clear or explicit way. The impact of their personality can be positive or negative; surely we have all known people who seem to just have the knack of livening up a social gathering and making it happy and fun while others seem able to get everyone into a down or upset mood. I think that the mechanisms are genuinely mysterious; we call it "charisma" or "a dominating personality" and most people understand what is meant. But that is not the same thing as actually understanding how and why it happens. Maybe that is a big part of what is going on here.

2 - He seems to be saying that he appreciates someone ridding him of an online personality he found distasteful, even if it was at the expense of potentially doing her serious harm in her real life and quite possibly of also causing great grief to people around her. In other words, he hated hvb so much for what she posted (that he and others freely chose to read) that he is glad to see her "punished" in a very "real" and possibly seriously damaging way. Do I really need to spell out what I think of that sort of attitude and selfishness?

-Ww

[justme]

Originally posted by Stitch
Anyway, I didn't mind when she wanted to talk about restaurants, movies, art, and so on, in threads devoted to those subjects. She was arrogant, but so what...

But I didn't like it when she destroyed the threads that were peculiar to THIS BOARD, that is, the ones in which people puzzled over sexual behavior...

She was so judgmental, self-admiring and scattered that she made an exploratory attitude impossible, especially among those who are not especially good writers but who still had valuable observations to make.

1. I agree, but I think people underestimate how much of her 'incredible volume' was restricted to these threads.

2. To the extent that she destroyed them, I'd agree. I just don't see why people let her destroy them.

3. I certainly agree that she was judgmental, self-admiring and scattered. And I agree that that detracted greatly from her posts. It seems like people forget that I was one of the very first people to get into it with her. I just don't think you can be shouted down unless you let yourself be shouted down. More to the point, I think you don't even have to acknowledge bad posts. God knows I do a fair share of ignoring stupid shit that gets posted here.

Reread some of the HOF posts in whcih she posted. She was making a lot of valid observations that no one else on UG was making.

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Irony: Didn't hvb herself leave (the first time) largely because of a battle with you (according to her)?! Or am I remembering it wrong?

-Ww


Actually some claimed it was because of me and I was more than happy to take the credit.... and a bow. But I think she posted a few days (maybe more) after I bitch slapped her that one time.... So it was probably something else that made her leave.

If I'm not mistaken... When she returned I left a day or two later... So I don’t think we had any interaction that time around.

[justme]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Do I really need to spell out what I think of that sort of attitude and selfishness?

I think a failure of people to do so has a lot to do with the decline of UG - if there has been a decline of UG.

But no, you don't have to.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme
She was making a lot of valid observations that no one else on UG was making.

Very true, imo. Maybe it was the combination of those unique insights with often childishly mean and merciless behavior (and no one is meaner or more merciless than children) that created the cognitive dissonance that made her hard to tolerate. If she had had nothing worthwhile to say, it would have been easy enough to ignore her (or to put her on one's ignore list), as one does all the time with some subset of PMB personalities.

-Ww

[justme]

This is my 24th post in this thread today. I think it's pretty easy to see how post totalls can get jacked up very quickly.

I suppoe I should probably be accused of hijacking the discussion away from literary criticism...

[justme]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Very true, imo. Maybe it was the combination of those unique insights with often childishly mean and merciless behavior (and no one is meaner or more merciless than children) that created the cognitive disonance that made her hard to tolerate. If she had had nothing worthwhile to say, it would have been easy enough to ignore her (or to put her on one's ignore list), as one does all the time with some subset of PMB personalities.

-Ww

This is more or less what I believe in this particular case.

The views she expressed often opposed her to the UG hegemony. I think to whatever degree a poster like JL was popular, it was because he generally was hegemony supporting (in the case of JL, actually, I tend to think he was hegemony creating). I think you'd appreciate the idea that a poster will receive quite a bit of backlash if the do not conform to deep seeted underlying assumptions of a community.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme
I think a failure of people to do so has a lot to do with the decline of UG - if there has been a decline of UG.
But no, you don't have to.

OK, if you insist. ;)

I think it is extremely low to take pleasure in hurting another or in seeing another hurt. As many will recall, I was one of hvb's greatest fans in her first incarnation. And she lost me not so much because of the way she attacked Cat but because of how much she seemed to enjoy whatever pain and distress it caused Ms. Ballou. Imo, msnj's post is as distasteful as any hvb ever made.

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme
I think you'd appreciate the idea that a poster will receive quite a bit of backlash if the do not conform to deep seeted underlying assumptions of a community.

Heh!

-Ww

[justme]

Originally posted by justme
I think you'd appreciate the idea that a poster will receive quite a bit of backlash if the do not conform to deep seeted underlying assumptions of a community.

One of the big problems (if you want to call it that) was that she was too pig headed to back down from her challenge of deep seated beliefs and approach discourse with more compromise to the dominant ideology.

To be fair, it probably also hurt her that she came off as so bitchy.

[justme]

Originally posted by justme
To be fair, it probably also hurt her that she came off as so bitchy.

I'll use this opportunity to point out that I think she played a role in genrating such a huge amount of animosity towards herself. At times I held tremendous animosity towards her because of he 'bitchiness' (I need a better word here).

I just don't think that this 'bitchiness' is enough to explain why so many people loath her.

[Stitch]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Maybe it was the combination of those unique insights with often childishly mean and merciless behavior (and no one is meaner or more merciless than children) that created the cognitive dissonance that made her hard to tolerate. If she had had nothing worthwhile to say, it would have been easy enough to ignore her (or to put her on one's ignore list), as one does all the time with some subset of PMB personalities.

-Ww


This is true. However, part of the "cognitive dissonance" was that she wasn't actually as bright or insightful as she thought she was. No one is, who has all the answers.

Bright people can be very stupid. That's always exasperating.

[justme]

Originally posted by Stitch
This is true. However, part of the "cognitive dissonance" was that she wasn't actually as bright or insightful as she thought she was. No one is, who has all the answers.

Bright people can be very stupid. That's always exasperating.

I agree with this 100%.

(If the converse held, this conversation, I'm sure, would prove my brightness. Too bad it doesn't)

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by justme
I'll use this opportunity to point out that I think she played a role in genrating such a huge amount of animosity towards herself. At times I held tremendous animosity towards her because of he 'bitchiness' (I need a better word here).

I just don't think that this 'bitchiness' is enough to explain why so many people loath her.

It was allot more than just her bitchiness... She belittled people who were probably belittled most of their life for the same weakness’ HVB attacked. That's allot of a reason to loath someone. Think of yourself as someone who was called fat or stupid all thru your childhood, only to come here years later and have someone like her with her supposed advanced education and someone who should know better than the 10 year olds who poked fun at you, doing the same thing as an adult.


Aside from who left the board and or why..... If we agree that so many people loath her.... does it really matter why? Aren't they allowed to have their own personal opinion of her?


I bet if the tables were turned and HVB was some 8th grade drop out poking fun at all the intellectuals and educated people here like she was a 10 year old…. You and others would have a different opinion of her…. Or should I mention Vermeer or MSY’s as the closest examples I can think of.

[justme]

1. OK Ozzy, so you've explained why April doesn't like HvB, fine. I suppose we should generalize that to everyone.

And can we settle in on a standard mythos of April, anyway. Are we supposed to buy into the savvy, street smart, tough business woman that's got her shit together OR the emotionally delicate, underprivilaged, and fragile woman who would actually be damaged by words written on a whoreboard?



2. It matters because I believe this unreasonable loathing has a lot to do with the widely circulated myth that HvB destroyed UG. To the extent that I care about UG as a thriving community, I think it's very important to understand what exactly did lead to the reduction in posts. And I think the first step in doing that is to dispell rather trivially dismissable arguments.



3. You're kidding me right? MSY's early posts were ridiculous, but I never came close to loathing him for them. I just thought they generated needless noise. On the other hand, he's settled down into a much higher proportion of posts of value. And I think Vermeer's approach is juvenile but I don't hate him for it I think both could be more valuable posters if they changed their style.

Actually, my opinion of Vermeer and MSY is pretty damned close to how I thought about HvB. (It's probably appropriate to point out that Vermmer was one of HvB's favorite posters...)

People have come on the board and made derrogatory comments about self-involved intellectual preening. And those comments weren't just directed at HvB. But the people that those comments were directed at largely ignored them because we are adults.

[Ozzy]

This, nor any post I’ve made here has anything to do with April.... though HVB did attack several other prostitutes here as well as male posters in much the same manner. Why not go back and check what exactly it was she said to me that made me bitch slap her that one time.


I never said the entire decline of UG could be attributed to HVB. I said she was a part of it and the atmosphere she and those who refused to acknowledge her full guilt helped create. I stated why I left and last I checked I was free to have an opinion about someone without having to explain it to a room full of people. And I did say months ago (probably a year ago) that she would drive people from the board if she wasn't put in check.

While there is no scientific way of ever determining how much a factor HVB was in the decline of posting... especially since her supporters are so unwilling to except her detractors reasoning....The only way to prove how much a factor HVB was... if any, is to bring her back on this board and see if posting drops off again after the improvement since she's been gone…. Of course it will just be called a coincidence if a drop off happens.

So it still won't prove anything to those unwilling to except anything less than she was little or no factor.... But I can absolutely guarantee you that the day I see her name at the top of a thread is the last time you see me around these parts. And you know what... It won’t be so much her as the reason I would leave... it's the people who will relentlessly be kissing her ass as she does exactly what I am so often criticized for doing.

[justme]

Besides April, who else did HvB kick around that was, "belittled people who were probably belittled most of their life for the same weakness’ HVB attacked?"

JL? Me? Ww? John Blackthorne? Cat Ballou?

it's the people who will relentlessly be kissing her ass as she does exactly what I am so often criticized for doing.

What the hell are you talking about? Seriously, what? Who kissed HvB's ass?

And what's with the persecution complex?

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by justme
Who kissed HvB's ass? My guess would be Hombre.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Ozzy
If we agree that so many people loath her.... does it really matter why? Aren't they allowed to have their own personal opinion of her?

I don't think the idea is to either condemn or acquit her...too late and pointless to do so, and it is certainly not about what opinions of her are or are not allowed (what does that even mean?). At least as far as I am concerned, the idea is to try to understand what actually happened and why.

(Hmmm...I see that jm has already made this reply, so the above can be regarded as a DITTO.)

-Ww

[Ozzy]

You must be kidding me or rewriting history on this board. HVB must have gone after at least three or four prostitutes before she settled on CB and April.

Wasn't Caitlin one?

Can't remember the rest cause I paid so little atention to the board at that point... but the bloody trail is out there if you want to look.

And I said.. it wasn't just prostitutes she attacked, you should look up what it was that she said to me that caused me to flip out on her.


As for the persecution complex... Maybe it has allot to do with how I was crucified here by you and several others for bitch slapping HVB with a closed fist when she came looking for a fight with the wrong person. A person whom she already knew had a short fuse and was capable of knocking her teeth out with one punch... and above all things, a person who didn't like being belittled and spoken down to like he was a five year old tugging on her skirt.

She basically stepped into my ring, threw the first punch and I let her have it... and all I got was shit (most of it back channel) for knocking out someone who either couldn't defend herself against the likes of me or didn't deserve the punch she got. But when she did the same fucking thing (actually she did much worse) to CB, April and others... all I heard was that CB and April deserved what they got.

And I don't care how much back channeling CB was doing.... HVB should have gone off the board and taken that fight back channel where it belonged instead of making all of us sit thru her daily CB rants and attacks.


btw... I finally got around to voting in that poll for the simple reason that I couldn't possibly have participated in a vote when I was no longer participating. I voted for BMM so the big guy wouldn't feel left out. Besides.... I didn't want him thinking that goose egg next to his name represented his body shape.

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
At least as far as I am concerned, the idea is to try to understand what actually happened and why.



We already know what happened but some don't want to acknowledge just how bad she really was. She did everything I ever did and took it to another very annoying level. It got to a point that she couldn't go two fucking posts without bringing up CB and dragging her thru a pile of shit... and this was long after CB was beaten and gone from here.

In my worst flame wars when it was over... it was over. HVB went on drilling CB long after the fight was over and pretty much till the day she left.


I don't know... Maybe it hard for some people here to simply acknowledge that a harvard grad could act like a fucking 13 year old bully beating up on a bunch of five year olds.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme
I think second is still Bill Furniture / Flounder who had 10K posts
Other people with a ton of posts include
Slinky (9720)
HvB (8326)
BigMadM (8572)
myself (7360)
Happy Hooker/Kimmie/NY Vanessa (7275)
Ozzy (6143)
Casper (6954)
Wwanderer (4851)
These ten represent 84591 posts, or over one fifth of UG.

The above is transplanted from the "GFE Bullshit!" thread, a reply by jm to MSY's comment on the incredibel 15K+ posts by jl.

I think that it is relevant here because it illustrates how one or a few very active participants can have more influence than one might expect on a board with as many nominally active members as UG. Not only do a few people account for a lot of the posts, but I suspect that the nonlinear effects are big because many of the posts by these folks are in response to each other...they are these sort of semi-private dialogues frequently seen on UG, including in this thread. So, when a very active participant leaves or greatly decreases his/her posting rate, it also reduces that of other posters with whom he/she regularly "conversed".

And, of course, even individual posters have their own nonlinear behavior in that being actively involved in one thread brings you to the board more often and increases the liklihood that you will become active in another one. Certainly that is true for me...and for most of us I think.

Maybe there is enough feedback in the system that it is just unstable...little perturbations send the posting rate way up or down.

(Should we talk about chaos theory now?)

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Ozzy
Wasn't Caitlin one?
Can't remember the rest cause I paid so little atention to the board at that point... but the bloody trail is out there if you want to look.

I don't recall any particular hvb-Caitlin friction, but Kate Courtesan was definitely one. Though the exchange was much shorter lived, Kate's view of hvb was not too different from Cat's in the end. And there was another whose name is stuck on the tip of my tongue, screen name sounded Italian I think, and she did not last long at all before taking her leave...just a few Off Topic threads.

But you are right that it was not just CB alone.

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Ozzy
hard for some people here to simply acknowledge that a harvard grad could act like a fucking 13 year old bully

Isn't that what one expects of a Harvard grad?

-Ww

[Ozzy]

Kate Courtesan is the one I was thinking of.


There had to be more than one or two because when she came knocking on April's door she already had a trend going and that's why April flipped so quickly cause she knew she was next on HVB's hit list.

[Wwanderer]

I think that John B was signigicantly involved in the run-in between hvb and the provider with the Italian sounding screen name that I still cannot recall.

Note that one, perhaps important, difference between her "fights" with these other providers and the one with Cat is that the latter had become a well established UG persona with a large number of her own posts and her onw online friends and enemies here, etc before hvb returned from her hiatus; in other words, she already had a lot invested in UG and in her own connections here. As far as I recall, the other providers hvb "attacked" were mostly or all newbies who tended to be much more easily persuaded that they would enjoy spending their online time elsewhere.

-Ww

[jp1064]

Question...what makes you all think HvB is gone? ponder that for a moment.

[Ozzy]

There was also April.

But I thought there was at least one other established provider/poster cause I seem to remember another popular name.



But I could care less at this point who she went after, how many or who left because of her..... I'm the wrong person to engage in this discussion cause I'm never going to be swayed into changing my opinon of her.... Maybe everyone forgets just how strong my feelings are about her that I went out and started my own site and named it after one of her own quotes.

[BigMadM]

Justme, I fucked 102 women last year, give or take 5.

I have to post often to discuss this, because I cant afford to discuss it on an hourly basis with my therapist. Utopia is free.(Im honoring an appt shortly,I never cancel, and I will not be using the services of escorts for a while. I met a companion just yesterday, and we clicked. We are a perfect pathetic match.)

Ozzy, while the references to my body,(and I make the most), being egg shape, I just wish once someone would mention I have a 7.5-8 inch penis, as thick as the handle of a baseball bat, easily verified.(and in certain situations, able to keep it rock hard for 50 minutes straight without the aid of any medication, something Ill always be proud of)

As to HVB, she was snobby, self-centered, very opinionated, very high view of herself, condenscending, and I could go on.
She was the perfect model of a PMB poster.

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by jp1064
Question...what makes you all think HvB is gone? ponder that for a moment.

I don't think she's gone.....No one is ever "gone". I'm sure she's reading this... but she's definitely not posting. She of all people couldn't pull off hiding behind an alias..... besides, she comes to these boards to seek attention and hiding behind an alias defeats that purpose of being here.

[jp1064]

Don't be so sure of that.

[Ozzy]

BM...

I always said these boards served a purpose for me as a form of therapy. People in here already know me better than any quack shrink whose never met me. People who I'm more relaxed in discussing things of this nature with.... people who are in the same boat as I am and would have a better idea of where I'm coming from.

As far as your dick size.... You'll get no comment from me. You'll have to wait for Kimmie, April or anyone else whose seen it for a comment.

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
I think that John B was signigicantly involved in the run-in between hvb and the provider with the Italian sounding screen name that I still cannot recall. Was it Abigail?

[kitty]

This biggest problem with this entire discussion is that you are all assuming that it takes place in a vacuum, and have very short memories when it comes to what was going on in PMB land while this all was occuring.

Let's take a look at the circumstances under which hvb came to UG in the first place: she got chased off of JAG along with her BF hombre, and johnnyk. To justify a campaign to get them to stop posting on any PMB anywhere, certain folks loyal to JAG engaged in various goon squad behavior on various sites (most notably JAG and craigslist) only a part of which was to post thier personal information.

On top of that, HvB got into a fight with someone which she could not possibly win: a "damsel in distress" hooker who mastered the art of Southern ***** helplessness who wrapped her boyfriends..... um... I mean Johns... around her finger (how much BBFS do you think was involved? Oh, wait, she wasn't on Long Island) and as usual, the Steel Magnolia, while pretending to be defenseless, led an amazing backchannel campaign against both hvb and UG. All the while crying about being the agreived party, but at the same time being an underground agressor of the most viscious type.

The net result of both the previous points was that (especially on the heels of a high profile outing/prosecution case involving another PMB) an awful lot of prolific posters stopped posting out of fear of one sort or another. Public PMBs had become a dangerous place to stick you head out for fear of havin it shot of (or bitten off, depending on which head and by whom). That's why hvb herself stopped posting, and that's why most of the high volume posters who no longer post here stopped posting. Let's face one certain fact: hvb didn' chase anyone off of any board which she never posted on. And many, many o those who stoped, or dimished their posting here also did so on ALL public PMB's. Assuming that's true, how can you blame hvb for those poster's actions on those boards where she never even stepped foot in?

[justme]

Originally posted by Ozzy
You must be kidding me or rewriting history on this board. HVB must have gone after at least three or four prostitutes before she settled on CB and April.

And I said.. it wasn't just prostitutes she attacked, you should look up what it was that she said to me that caused me to flip out on her.

As for the persecution complex... Maybe it has allot to do with how I was crucified here by you and several others for bitch slapping HVB with a closed fist when she came looking for a fight with the wrong person.


Se thing is I never saw her go after anyone that I viewed as particularly fragile and unable to defend themselves in the way you describe.

Are you really going to make me look it up?

I honestly believe that you're misremember the extent to which people censured you. I really don't remember 'crucifying' you when you went after HvB. In fact, I don't even really remember what was going on when you posted what you did (re: her ability to stay employed).

I'd really love to check the record on what was said back then, but as you know, I cannot.

But look, I apologize if you reacted to something HvB did in self-defense and I unfairly criticized you for it.

[justme]

Originally posted by Ozzy
I don't know... Maybe it hard for some people here to simply acknowledge that a harvard grad could act like a fucking 13 year old bully beating up on a bunch of five year olds.

I really wish you'd get it through your head that I could care less where she got her degrees from. One of the advantages of being around a lot of really smart people is you stop being impressed with a concept like 'Harvard Grad'. I know enough idiots that went to Harvard and Harvard ruined enough people that I liked before they went there.

What I object to is your characterization of the people she bullied as 'five year olds' to her thirteen.

Actually, it's clear that you're giving her too much credit for being a Harvard grad. I more or less view any two people as equal on a PMB unless they prove otherwise. When HvB went after Caitlin, say, I didn't assume that Caitlin wouldn't be able to stand up to HvB. Why would I? They're both adults.

Why should HvB's abuse be relgated to a different category than anyone elses? What makes her 13 while everyone else is 5? That's the thing that I've never undertsood about this entire argument.

[justme]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
I think that it is relevant here because it illustrates how one or a few very active participants can have more influence than one might expect on a board with as many nominally active members as UG. Not only do a few people account for a lot of the posts, but I suspect that the nonlinear effects are big because many of the posts by these folks are in response to each other...they are these sort of semi-private dialogues frequently seen on UG, including in this thread. So, when a very active participant leaves or greatly decreases his/her posting rate, it also reduces that of other posters with whom he/she regularly "conversed".

I think this is exactly right.

I think that there historically there has been a core of maybe 15 UG posters that were just about guaranteed to post a lot in any interesting thread. Get any 5 of those guys (or Kimmie) around and you'd get a conversation.

Around them I think there was a group of another 30 posters that would read every interesting thread but would only contribute if they had a strong opinion. These 30 people change from time to time. They generally weren't motivated (read: liked to hear themselves speak enough) to get threads started or keep them going. I'm thinking guys like alterego, or Stitch

Then you'd have people that wouldn't read every thread religiously, but would pop in from time to time to make a comment if a thread appealed to them

I think you need a critical mass of those first people to keep things going. I think if you don't have enough, conversations don't ignite and they aren't carried through lulls. When that happenes the second kind of poster loses interest in UG.

Now if you want to talk about the decline of conversation on UG, I think you can look at the notable departures of a few people who used to post way too much to be healthy.

Now, consider those top 15 posters. Who left? Why did they leave? answer that question and I think you begin to really understand what happened to UG.

[Towely]

Originally posted by justme
She was arrogant, judgemental, and unapologetic. She was fairly set in her ideas and would argue them to death. She had a tendency of attacking people, using ad hominem attacks that were sometimes well founded, instead of ideas. She almost never let popular opinion curb her posts.

Oddly enough I really didn’t read many of her posts. But I did form an opinion from the ones I did read.

She was hateful. I mean that in a literal sense; she was full of hate. Based on her interactions with Cat Ballou and Kate Courtesan, I’d say she was just jealous of women. But, like a rabid dog, she’d bite anyone who got near. As others have noted, I also think the only thing she liked was inflicting pain on others. In the online gaming world she’d be known as a ‘Griefer’. It’s not a term of endearment.

I didn’t know any of hvb’s backstory; being kicked off Jag, being outted,etc. But it doesn’t surprise me that she had previous problems playing well with others.

[justme]

Originally posted by Ozzy
But I could care less at this point who she went after, how many or who left because of her..... I'm the wrong person to engage in this discussion cause I'm never going to be swayed into changing my opinon of her.... Maybe everyone forgets just how strong my feelings are about her that I went out and started my own site and named it after one of her own quotes.

God Ozzy, I hope you don't think I was trying to change your mind.

I've never seen anyone change your mind about anything.

[justme]

There should be a SFSF after that last post.

[Towely]

Originally posted by justme
To me what's absolutley interesting is that while she wasn't unique in any of the things that people have thus far criticized her for, she is fairly unique in the degree of vitriol that her actions created.

This is fairly easy to understand I think. She was unique in a couple ways. One was the sheer volume of posting and the other was the fact that she game here just to be a Griefer. Guys initially come here for a reason and if they’re obnoxious it’s just a side effect. It’s harder to overlook someone who comes here *only* to be obnoxious.

[justme]

Not that I ever was able to figure out why she was wasting time here, but I disagree with the notion it was to get her rocks off abusing people. A solid majority of her posts weren't flame war related.

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by justme
Se thing is I never saw her go after anyone that I viewed as particularly fragile and unable to defend themselves in the way you describe.

Are you really going to make me look it up?

I honestly believe that you're misremember the extent to which people censured you. I really don't remember 'crucifying' you when you went after HvB. In fact, I don't even really remember what was going on when you posted what you did (re: her ability to stay employed).

I'd really love to check the record on what was said back then, but as you know, I cannot.

But look, I apologize if you reacted to something HvB did in self-defense and I unfairly criticized you for it.

And do you think my saying she was a train wreck, sponging of Hombre and unemployable was all that bad or anywhere near what she did to CB?

And she went after a shit load of prostitutes besides a rare or one timeremark she threw at you, JL or Ww .... I guess dumb uneducated prostitutes are not the fragile type.

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by kitty
This biggest problem with this entire discussion is that you are all assuming that it takes place in a vacuum, and have very short memories when it comes to what was going on in PMB land while this all was occuring.

Let's take a look at the circumstances under which hvb came to UG in the first place: she got chased off of JAG along with her BF hombre, and johnnyk. To justify a campaign to get them to stop posting on any PMB anywhere, certain folks loyal to JAG engaged in various goon squad behavior on various sites (most notably JAG and craigslist) only a part of which was to post thier personal information.

On top of that, HvB got into a fight with someone which she could not possibly win: a "damsel in distress" hooker who mastered the art of Southern ***** helplessness who wrapped her boyfriends..... um... I mean Johns... around her finger (how much BBFS do you think was involved? Oh, wait, she wasn't on Long Island) and as usual, the Steel Magnolia, while pretending to be defenseless, led an amazing backchannel campaign against both hvb and UG. All the while crying about being the agreived party, but at the same time being an underground agressor of the most viscious type.

The net result of both the previous points was that (especially on the heels of a high profile outing/prosecution case involving another PMB) an awful lot of prolific posters stopped posting out of fear of one sort or another. Public PMBs had become a dangerous place to stick you head out for fear of havin it shot of (or bitten off, depending on which head and by whom). That's why hvb herself stopped posting, and that's why most of the high volume posters who no longer post here stopped posting. Let's face one certain fact: hvb didn' chase anyone off of any board which she never posted on. And many, many o those who stoped, or dimished their posting here also did so on ALL public PMB's. Assuming that's true, how can you blame hvb for those poster's actions on those boards where she never even stepped foot in?

This is absolute BULLSHIT!


You've just turned HVB into some kind of completely innocent martyr..... and that is so very far from the truth. It's also insulting to every fucking person she personally attacked.

And this campaign to get them to stop posting didn’t happen the way it’s explained. You neglected to mention that the first outing was months after the three were tossed off JAG as well as the fact hombre got tossed for allowing HVB access after she was tossed, and not something that happened the day they showed up on UG.... Or how Johnny K and co taunted the eventual outer/s for months with stupid comics before the first outing. You also neglected to mention the rumor of an attempted JAG take over or blackmail.... not saying it's true... but that was mentioned by one of the "outers" as their driving force to out the "outies"... So it should warrant at least a mention before you decree these people innocent victims.

And who's blaming HVB for any boards she never stepped foot on..... We're talking about THIS board. This is the only board we're talking about when it comes to a decline in posting... what other boards are there...TER.. ***.... TER if anything saw posting grow during this time frame and ***'s been in the tank in regards to posting for a couple of years due to the whole RICO thing.

As for vilifying CB and her back channeling.... I personally have never seen a single shred of proof that she did anything. And how the fuck can anyone compare what goes on in private, back channel between a few or even a hundred losers to HVB's relentless attacks on a public board in front of thousands of people.

I also find it disturbing that “Kitty” who's post I quoted and who is claiming in other posts to be a former or current provider and who has only posted the last two months was registered on this board a month before even Bender or I were.

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by justme
I really wish you'd get it through your head that I could care less where she got her degrees from. One of the advantages of being around a lot of really smart people is you stop being impressed with a concept like 'Harvard Grad'. I know enough idiots that went to Harvard and Harvard ruined enough people that I liked before they went there.

What I object to is your characterization of the people she bullied as 'five year olds' to her thirteen.

Actually, it's clear that you're giving her too much credit for being a Harvard grad. I more or less view any two people as equal on a PMB unless they prove otherwise. When HvB went after Caitlin, say, I didn't assume that Caitlin wouldn't be able to stand up to HvB. Why would I? They're both adults.

Why should HvB's abuse be relgated to a different category than anyone elses? What makes her 13 while everyone else is 5? That's the thing that I've never undertsood about this entire argument.

So how come when I got into it with HVB or a few others you didn't regard us as equals.

You and others obviously have a double standard when it comes to HVB atacking people and say.... me attacking people.

God I wish I had access to LS so I could find all the post of you guys bashing me for being and I quote..... " A BULLY" to those who were defensless against me.


But considering the direction this thread has taken and the absolute extent somepeople are going to, to paint HVB as someone who was treated unfairly..... you won't have to worry about me here anymore.... I'm going back to my sandbox.

[Casper]

I for one was totally put off at the level of viciousness hvb had towards some people. My declining interest in reading or participating on UG was mainly due to the climate that her personal attacks created. Was she the only one doing that? No, but as Emril would say, she "kicked it up a notch". Plus I never could stomach her type, IRL or online. Someone put it best... pompous, ......... etc.

And since she's the attention whore that she is, I'm sure she's reading this so what I say to you is I'm happier that you no longer post here. See you really do have an impact on people.
Have a great day

(example on how to somewhat diplomatically slam someone without getting too personal)

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by pjorourke
Was it Abigail?

Maybe....doesn't sound too Italian, but recent threads are establishing the unreliability of my memory anyway.

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by kitty
what was going on in PMB land while this all was occuring.

(especially on the heels of a high profile outing/prosecution case involving another PMB) an awful lot of prolific posters stopped posting out of fear of one sort or another

If you mean the same "high profile outing/prosecution case" I have in mind, wasn't there a considerable interval between that and the "decline of UG"? In fact, didn't this unhappy incident occur well before hvb's UG haydays? Or maybe you mean some different incident.

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme

1 - I think this is exactly right.
I think that there historically there has been a core of maybe 15 UG posters that were just about guaranteed to post a lot in any interesting thread. Get any 5 of those guys (or Kimmie) around and you'd get a conversation.
Around them I think there was a group of another 30 posters that would read every interesting thread but would only contribute if they had a strong opinion. These 30 people change from time to time. They generally weren't motivated (read: liked to hear themselves speak enough) to get threads started or keep them going. I'm thinking guys like alterego, or Stitch
I think you need a critical mass of those first people to keep things going. I think if you don't have enough, conversations don't ignite and they aren't carried through lulls. When that happenes the second kind of poster loses interest in UG.

2 - Now, consider those top 15 posters. Who left? Why did they leave? answer that question and I think you begin to really understand what happened to UG.

3 -

1a - I am glad you agree, and I think that your restatement of my suggestion is both clearer and pretty much on-target.

1b - My only real ammendment is that I think you may somewhat understate the significance/contribution of at least some of the participants in your "second tier", the next 30 or so that turn over. Although their typical total post volume is around 10 times less than the "top 15", I think that some of them do add tremendous value, both in terms of starting new threads and in attracting others to participate more actively. At least they do for me. For example, Stitch both started one of my all time favorite UG threads and made a couple of posts which I found among the best (most useful to me) ever on UG (or elsewhere for that matter). So, despite his under 500 total posts, whether or not he is active on UG influences me as much (more actually) than some of those with many 1000s of posts. And he is not the only one. But anyway, this is just a quibble with your basic characterization of the situation. I still very much agree with the thrust of it.

2 - Well, I guess one reason that hvb gets so much attention in this regard is that a few of them, and also a few of the "next 30", say that they left because of her. (And, of course, she herself was one of the 15.) Others do not, of course. But in the sort of nonlinear model ( a few posters having big effects on each other) you/we describe above, maybe she is the pebble that started the landslide, so to speak. If so, she may be to blame in one sense but not in a deeper one...just the cause that happened to trigger the exodus but not the instability that made it possible.

3 - You forgot to discuss the chaos theory aspects!

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Towely
Oddly enough I really didn’t read many of her posts. But I did form an opinion from the ones I did read.
Originally posted by Towely
she game here just to be a Griefer. Guys initially come here for a reason and if they’re obnoxious it’s just a side effect. It’s harder to overlook someone who comes here *only* to be obnoxious.
Originally posted by justme
Not that I ever was able to figure out why she was wasting time here, but I disagree with the notion it was to get her rocks off abusing people. A solid majority of her posts weren't flame war related.

I think the first quote above expains why you, Towely, might see her differently than jm does, but in any case, like him, I am pretty sure that your second quote is wrong. I read a large majority of all of her UG posts, and most of them had nothing at all to do with being a "Griefer". I think her purpose in "wasting time" here was the same as that of most of the very high volume posters, namely that she found the conversations engaging and entertaining. In particular, she clearly particularly enjoyed "talking" to jl; there was an extended period that it was very rare to find any thread in which jl was active in which she was not responding to nearly all of his comments.

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

A real life event, a brief power outage here, revealed to me the true cause of UG's decline, namely the SF 3 minute editing rule! By the time the net connection came back up it was too late to fix minor defects in my previous post (e.g., using "particular" and "particularly" within 4 words). This drives me crazy, and most of the very high volume posters, including hvb I know for sure, loathe it. It is doubtless what put her in such a bad mood.

-Ww

[pjorourke]

So its all slinky's fault.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by pjorourke
So its all slinky's fault.

In retrospect it is hard to see why it took us so long to figure that out.

-Ww

[jseah]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
In retrospect it is hard to see why it took us so long to figure that out.

-Ww

no...no.....it's cloud nine's fault......

ever since slinky went on vacation and put him in charge of the asylum.....

[jseah]

Originally posted by justme
I really wish you'd get it through your head that I could care less where she got her degrees from. One of the advantages of being around a lot of really smart people is you stop being impressed with a concept like 'Harvard Grad'. I know enough idiots that went to Harvard and Harvard ruined enough people that I liked before they went there.

What I object to is your characterization of the people she bullied as 'five year olds' to her thirteen.

Actually, it's clear that you're giving her too much credit for being a Harvard grad. I more or less view any two people as equal on a PMB unless they prove otherwise. When HvB went after Caitlin, say, I didn't assume that Caitlin wouldn't be able to stand up to HvB. Why would I? They're both adults.

Why should HvB's abuse be relgated to a different category than anyone elses? What makes her 13 while everyone else is 5? That's the thing that I've never undertsood about this entire argument.

jm, this was beautifully stated......

[jseah]

like jm said, while she did show occasional flashes of brilliance, many of her posts (as anyone can say about anyone else's) were the "white noise" of the internet message board world. you could have easily chosen to ignore it.....but many chose to let it irritate them, like a grain of sand inside an oyster.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by jseah
like a grain of sand inside an oyster.

Then where/what the hell is our pearl? ;)

-Ww

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Then where/what the hell is our pearl? ;)
This thread?

[Dondee]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Then where/what the hell is our pearl? ;)

-Ww

Kimmie!

[justme]

Originally posted by Ozzy
And do you think my saying she was a train wreck, sponging of Hombre and unemployable was all that bad or anywhere near what she did to CB?

And she went after a shit load of prostitutes besides a rare or one timeremark she threw at you, JL or Ww .... I guess dumb uneducated prostitutes are not the fragile type.

No. But I don't think you should have been run off the board or had your info posted on CL, either. What's your point? If I gave you a harder time than I gave HvB it's because I liked you more. It takes a lot of work to disagree with people, or at least it does with me. I won't bother with taking on that work unless it's important to me.

See, I don't assume that prostitutes are dumb or uneducated. Aparrently you do. I generally assume that a prostitute who is willing to post things in a public forum is prepared to deal with meaningless verbal insults. I wouldn't blame a prostitute for getting upset, but I'm fairly certain she could handle it. If she can't than she probably has no business posting in a public forum.

Seriously, I can't believe any of the stuff that she posted is more offensive than the racist or sexist bile that gets put up on UG all the time.

[justme]

Originally posted by Ozzy
So how come when I got into it with HVB or a few others you didn't regard us as equals.

You and others obviously have a double standard when it comes to HVB atacking people and say.... me attacking people.

God I wish I had access to LS so I could find all the post of you guys bashing me for being and I quote..... " A BULLY" to those who were defensless against me.

But considering the direction this thread has taken and the absolute extent somepeople are going to, to paint HVB as someone who was treated unfairly..... you won't have to worry about me here anymore.... I'm going back to my sandbox.

1. If I didn't I should have and would apologize.
2. If I did I shouldn't have and would apologize.
3. I do too, because obviously we're remembering events differently. What's LS?
4. That's unfortunate.

[justme]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
1b - My only real ammendment is that I think you may somewhat understate the significance/contribution of at least some of the participants in your "second tier

2 - Well, I guess one reason that hvb gets so much attention in this regard is that a few of them, and also a few of the "next 30", say that they left because of her. (And, of course, she herself was one of the 15.)

3 - You forgot to discuss the chaos theory aspects!

-Ww

1b. If I did than I mispoke. Those posters are incredibly valuable. Without them the board would just be a bunch of hotheads rambling over the same topics. The things is those kinds of posters aren't so addicted to posting here that they can sustain 500 post threads. For that I think you need a core group that'll keep those threads going. I can't remember which one but a few months ago there was a thread that took me weeks to find but had the makings of an interesting conversation. I don't think that it would have taken me wweeks to stumble onto it before.

2. But at least as many other people left for completely different reasons. There was still perfectly good posting when I left in late March.

3. Umm... Naughty Lap Dances are my favorite kind of NLD's?

[justme]

Originally posted by jseah
like jm said, while she did show occasional flashes of brilliance, many of her posts (as anyone can say about anyone else's) were the "white noise" of the internet message board world. you could have easily chosen to ignore it.....but many chose to let it irritate them, like a grain of sand inside an oyster.

Right. and my theory is that it was especially irritating because she was so radically opposed to the common narrative.

[MikitheMilf]

Originally posted by justme
.

See, I don't assume that prostitutes are dumb or uneducated. Aparrently you do. I generally assume that a prostitute who is willing to post things in a public forum is prepared to deal with meaningless verbal insults. I wouldn't blame a prostitute for getting upset, but I'm fairly certain she could handle it. If she can't than she probably has no business posting in a public forum.

].

I'm not sure why you think its ok that a prostitute that posts here should be prepared to deal with any type of baseless abuse. nor should anyone else, however it becomes apparent to me that this behavior is part of the double edged sword of addiction whereas the addict turns his/her self loathing into outward hating of the thing that he/she is addicted to. If a provider is repectable, honest and does her business with integrity she should have the safety yo come out here and speak her mind without having to look over her shoulder waiting for an attack. i am a big girl ande can take care of myself but I must admit (reluctantly and with extereme trepidation) that Vermeer haranguing has gotten to me at times and that I have had to bend backwards to prove I am no skank...and even now that he seems to have calmed there are anonymous references in a post today that refer to "horsefaced " jerk or jackass providers that have enough sense to advertise(see new CL thread) WHY?????Its his shit but the verbal diarrhea is ridiculous already...my home has been threatened and I've been outed by him on CL too...Its not OK to abuse me because I'm a prostitue, my God!!! You guys are mongers and the playing field is level, we need each other can't there be mutual respect???

[justme]

Miki, here's where trouble started between April and HvB. You can tell me if it's comprable to you and Verm's situation.

http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=343133#post343133

To me comparing, HvB's behavior in this thread to Vermeer's campaign against you diminishes the latter.

On the other hand, you're still postinge here. You have taken what I consider to be a much higher level of abuse and you stick it out. So I think you're a great example of how prostitutes can ignore vitrilic bile.

I think what you read from my post, but what I certainly do not mean, is that people should be feel free to post that bile to begin with. This couldn't be farther from the truth. I disagree with Vermeers attacks on you (much more than I disagree with his childish South Park use of racial epithets) and I disagree with HvB's posts in this thread.

I want to point out the third page of that thread where JL & I take HvB to task for what she's done. I can't see how Ozzy contorted in his head to our kissing her ass or condoning her behavior. To me that looks like straight condemnation.

I completely agree that people should be nicer on UG. But ultimatley that has nothing to do with what I'm trying to say in this thread.

[Towely]

Originally posted by Wwanderer I think the first quote above expains why you, Towely, might see her differently than jm does,
-Ww

Everyone would view her differently based on which subset of her posts they read. It’s like the old story of five blind guys touching an elephant. Some people felt her trunk, some felt her tusks. I felt her ass and didn’t want to go any further.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme
I can't believe any of the stuff that she posted is more offensive than the racist or sexist bile that gets put up on UG all the time.

I agree that it was not more offensive, but it was different; it was more personalized and deliberate/premeditated (as opposed to being an almost unthinking expression of someone's prejudices), at least some of it was.

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme
What's LS?

What do you do for relaxation, jm, play catch with live hand grenades, juggle chainsaws or ...?

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Towely
It’s like the old story of five blind guys touching an elephant.

An excellent metaphor, but of course its lesson is that all five blind men were wrong in their conclusions due to insufficient data, even though their reasoning was OK based on the limited info they did have. Imo, your conclusion that hvb was primarily a "griefer" is wrong for similar reasons.

-Ww

[Thorn]

Originally posted by justme
((I still want to know why all those people who HvB 'chased away' aren't posting now that she's gone... because we know they're still reading.))

I know I posted much less simply because I was around much less, and that was directly due to HvB making this place hard on the eyes. I tried to ignore her at first, but that became increasing difficult as it became obvious there was no place to go on the board that she wasn't, willfully, sticking her obnoxious two cents.

I went directly at her, first using logic to communicate to her what my personal take on her presence was doing to the board, and then mimicing her to see if she could pick up on it that way. Then I simply stopped bothering to try and bailed, to some extent, on my activity.

Now she is gone. I post again in a limited fashion when something interesting comes along. I don't start, in my own right, anything interesting simply because there isn't a lot of time for me now-days. It is highly likely that I will though, as I detect something of the old UG coming back to life. I think the GFE thread, for instance, is great. As beat up as that topic is there are some interesting points being made there.

I also note a fresh sense of getting back to what the board was all about. Sharing info on where the end user can find value [and that can mean many things] in his whoring experience.

As long as that never totally goes away, neither will most of us.

[Thorn]

Originally posted by justme
I need to get my post counter away from teel speak, so I'll add that it's not that I don't think that HvB affected change at UG, I just think that every explanation offered so far fails to adequately distinguish her behavior from the behavior of any number of other posters.

So I find the explanations lacking.

Oh please.

That's like saying that because a tropical storm and a hurricane share similar weather patterns and come from the same place that you can't tell the two apart.

I can tell you how people who get hit by them can tell, one does a lot more damage then the other.

That's how you can tell.

[Thorn]

Originally posted by justme
No, I'm proposing a little intellectual honesty in our discussion of what precisley was problematic about her presence here.

How about she turned into a little shit who made the board unpalatable to read.

Jeeze, what is so hard to understand.

She was intellectually, exasperatinly, false on many issues. She was, willfully and obviously, hurtful in her attacks. Her posts oozed malicious intent. It was very unpleasant to watch.

Again, what is so hard to understand?

BTW, if she were still around she'd be eating this up with a spoon. For she cared less whether you agreed with her or not, as long as she was the center of the conversation.

So, with that in mind...

[Thorn]

Originally posted by moneyshotsnj
Good move to who ever did that and sent her wimpering away.

A very general comment about those who post personal info on anyone, anywhere.

Historically people have been found laying, lifeless, in back alleys for less. That is simply a fact which people should bare in mind before making such gestures. Its not like we don't have our share of those in 'this thing of ours' who hang onto social norms tenuously at best. Why risk it.

As for the deservedness for such breaks with decorum, this is a debate I shall leave that to others.

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by justme
...If I gave you a harder time than I gave HvB it's because I liked you more. It takes a lot of work to disagree with people, or at least it does with me. I won't bother with taking on that work unless it's important to me.Does this mean, based on the shit we've exchanged, that you like me?

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by MikitheMilf
I'm not sure why you think its ok that a prostitute that posts here should be prepared to deal with any type of baseless abuse. nor should anyone else, however it becomes apparent to me that this behavior is part of the double edged sword of addiction whereas the addict turns his/her self loathing into outward hating of the thing that he/she is addicted to. If a provider is repectable, honest and does her business with integrity she should have the safety yo come out here and speak her mind without having to look over her shoulder waiting for an attack. i am a big girl ande can take care of myself but I must admit (reluctantly and with extereme trepidation) that Vermeer haranguing has gotten to me at times and that I have had to bend backwards to prove I am no skank...and even now that he seems to have calmed there are anonymous references in a post today that refer to "horsefaced " jerk or jackass providers that have enough sense to advertise(see new CL thread) WHY?????Its his shit but the verbal diarrhea is ridiculous already...my home has been threatened and I've been outed by him on CL too...Its not OK to abuse me because I'm a prostitue, my God!!! You guys are mongers and the playing field is level, we need each other can't there be mutual respect??? Miki, I think you make some very good points regarding addictive behaviour. However, that being said, this board has alway had an edgier tone than other boards. Its no place for shrinking violets - among guys or gals. I think that tone arose out of a common revolsion of the posters with the sacharine tone of the "boyfriends" at ***.

Re your last comment about outing personal info, I agree whole-heartedly with Thorn's comments. Outing of personal info is the WMD of whoreboards.

[Thorn]

Originally posted by Kimmie
There's a fat joke in there..I just know it!!!

Whenever there is a strong female presence that isnt selling herself to them, they cant handle it.



[Cough, hack] Bullshit [Cough, hack]

Kimmie, most Type A types take particular delight in tackling other Type A's. Its how you keep your game up. Its how you score in the big leagues.

There is usually no value in taking on lesser opponents. However, you expect other Alphas to stick to the rules. Keep to the points at issue. No ad hominem attacks. Use facts, not personalities. Fangs and claws allowed, but never attack the face, so to speak, and for gawd sake no willfully knawing on those whose talons aren't as sharp. Its cheap, petty, and ugly.

She failed at all of this.

Its not that she fought. Its that she didn't fight by the rules. She didn't fight fair. Few disdain the quick, clean, kill. Some of us even appreciate it. It is those who insist on making a mess and refuse to clean it up that many have a problem with.

[Sorry... for that one last gasp... that is all I have to say on the issue, I think. :) ]

[Thorn]

Originally posted by justme
Besides April, who else did HvB kick around that was, "belittled people who were probably belittled most of their life for the same weakness’ HVB attacked?"

JL? Me? Ww? John Blackthorne? Cat Ballou?

it's the people who will relentlessly be kissing her ass as she does exactly what I am so often criticized for doing.

What the hell are you talking about? Seriously, what? Who kissed HvB's ass?



Justme, meet Left Field. Left Field, Justme.

[zarathustra88]

Pyscho-drama has never been my bag--on boards or in life. Steer clear of it as far as humanly possible. But from a purely literary and interesting to read point of view, have never missed hvb for a second. All ego, little or no content or interest. CB OTOH is sorely missed; thoughtful, original, beautifully spoken, and a thorough -going sensualist to boot, mixing it up with the boys on a dirty PMB. The type of woman, like Betty too, you can only imagine meeting in real life. It's one thing to be a female voluptuary, but to articulate and share it with such clarity and passion was (is) their special gift to us. CB, wherever you are, whoever you were, a belated note of appreciation for stickin' your noggin out there and doing it. You are missed.

[jras]

how many of you guys who hate(d) hvb were fucking Cat?

[Thorn]

Originally posted by jras
how many of you guys who hate(d) hvb were fucking Cat?

Because that truly is a fair question, one more post.

I can only speak for myself.

In my case I was long onto vB's BS, and calling her on it, before seeing CB. Tackling her on fairness issues and lack of intellectual integrity, among other things.

In fact, it may be said that vB is specifically, at least in part, how I became aware of CB.

So, at least in my case, my annoyance and the seeds for my taking a break from UG for awhile because of vB were sown long before I saw CB as a client and I can promise you would have remained exactly the same had I not seen her as a client after I had already started mixing it up with vB.

P.S. Hate is too strong a word. I didn't hate vB. That would imply I felt more about her then I actually did.

[MetsSweepYankees]

Originally posted by Thorn
In fact, it may be said that vB is specifically, at least in part, how I became aware of CB.


There's always a silver lining.

And with me, you first became aware that the Jets were going to make the playoffs.

[Thorn]

Originally posted by MetsSweepYankees
There's always a silver lining.

And with me, you first became aware that the Jets were going to make the playoffs.

I have to admit that the win this week changed my mind, and I now believe you to be correct in your original posting.

But you can't blame a Jets fan, whose heart has been broken as many times as mine has in the last 38 years, for being very careful with his willingness to commit to post season activity by his favorite team.

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by jras
how many of you guys who hate(d) hvb were fucking Cat? Not I.

And I agree with Thorn. Hate is much too strong a word. I'd have to know someone much better before I could hate them. I did enjoy some of HvB's posts and found that she added a different perspective to the conversation. But largely, she was annoying. Kind of like MSY, but much more so. He's kind of a PMB fruit fly. I saw her more as a wasp.

Maybe a better analogy is the deck of cards they used in Iraq. I haven't run into an Ace of Spades yet (thankfully). The worst I've found was probably spocko, who I'd rate as maybe a Jack of Hearts. MSY is about a 3 of Clubs and HvB about an 8 or 9 of Diamonds.

[Ozzy]

I am not questioning the fact people left because of the outings, negative atmosphere, other posters, ugly fonts, ugly girls etc..

I am only saying that allot of people... even just some.... maybe even just ME, left because of HVB. However, several prominent posters here have already said the same… Why can’t that just be accepted. Why are our opinions of this woman not valid? Why must we feel like we have to explain our loathing of her? There are plenty of people on this board I don't particularly like and many who don't like me, yet no one is asking them to explain their reasons for loathing each other.

The primary reason I left this board last, was because of HVB... I don't like being told I don't have a valid reason for doing so. I know why I left.. I have my motives and I don't like having them questioned.

This woman played a dirty back handed trick on me playing on my fear that she possibly had my personal info. And because of that, I swore I'd never participate anywhere she was, ever again. She made a veiled threat to me on the board that I felt went way over the ethical line, about all these people who were SUPPOSEDLY e*mailing her my personal information with “less than compassionate recommendations” about what to do with it. She played it off by claiming she didn't want it, didn't play that way and didn't want to encourage it..... Well if she didn't want my info or to encourage it being spread around.... then why the fuck did she bring it up to twenty thousand people on a public board and let them know my info was out there in the first place… Why the fuck didn't she just respond right back in private the way she was e*mailed and tell "all these people" (as if it was too many to reply to) that she wasn't interested. NO... She saw a way of crossing the line and possibly using someone’s personal info against them under the guise of being naive or claiming her post being misunderstood if someone called her on it. But because she’s this Harvard educated uppity bitch who supposedly doesn’t know from such behavior… She’s allowed to pull shit like that and gets away with it because behavior like that is not expected from a member of UG’s mensa club. As far as I'm concerned, she deserved everything she got. The rest of her pals were somewhat unfortunate innocent bystanders whom I feel sorry for.


She's no different than Guy Catelli in this regard.. He played those same dirty back handed tricks on people and he’s loathed by just about everyone in PMB land for it. So I have a very valid reason for loathing this women.



So understand why I don't appreciate people defending her and portraying her as some misunderstood, naive, unfairly judged, innocent person. It makes it seem like what she did to me is fully condoned.... especially when all I heard at the time were compassionate excuses on her half when this incident happened. She's exactly what everyone has already stated she is... and unless I missed something.... not in any of HVB's supporters posts have I seen a single good word said about her character, which should tell you all something about her and give those who defend and support her something to ponder.


And if you're going to post a link to April vs HVB you should at least post a set up that includes the fact that HVB provided grammar corrections to several "dumb" prostitutes before she bashed them into submission with her advanced wit and savoir-faire writing style (that’s what I mean by a 13 year old vs a 5 year old) when it comes down to a war of words. So while April’s response which without that prelim… appears to be a bit over the top. One could understand that after an explanation of HVB’s track record of picking on a non mensa members poor grammar or typing, would show that April’s response was quite predictable when HVB came a looking for a fight.

And why is it that if you don't like HVB it's only because you're fucking CB... I never met CB, never e*mailed her or have I spoken to her. I have my reasons for loathing this woman.... I shouldn't have answer to anyone as to why I do.

[MetsSweepYankees]

Originally posted by pjorourke
Kind of like MSY, but much more so. He's kind of a PMB fruit fly.


Why? Because I'm just winging it?

Nobody is forcing you to read my posts. They have a word for people who intentionally torture themselves.

Originally posted by pjorourke
Maybe a better analogy is the deck of cards they used in Iraq. I haven't run into an Ace of Spades yet (thankfully). The worst I've found was probably spocko, who I'd rate as maybe a Jack of Hearts. MSY is about a 3 of Clubs and HvB about an 8 or 9 of Diamonds.

And you might be the Jackass of Hearts in my deck.

Geesh. The way everybody talks about this HvB, you would think her ghost still haunts this place.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by MetsSweepYankees
you would think her ghost still haunts this place

Of that, I'd say there is no doubt...as does CB's.

-Ww

[MetsSweepYankees]

{the sound of wind whooshing against the UG windowpane}

Persona #1: Did you hear that?

Persona #2: Stop imagining things.

{a door creaks open, and gently clicks shut}

Persona #1: I do, I do, I do believe in ghosts.

[jras]

Originally posted by Ozzy
And why is it that if you don't like HVB it's only because you're fucking CB... I never met CB, never e*mailed her or have I spoken to her. I have my reasons for loathing this woman.... I shouldn't have answer to anyone as to why I do.
down boy-
Oz, no one said you were fucking anyone. But the question is legit, even if irrelevant to your loathing of hvb. I was just curious to see how far Cat had spread herself around the UG crew, and if it might shed insight into some of this dialogue and the history that preceded it.
(thanks, pj & thorn)

[jp1064]

Originally posted by MetsSweepYankees
you would think her ghost still haunts this place
Originally posted by Wwanderer
Of that, I'd say there is no doubt...as does CB's. don't forget Toonces.....

http://www.catass.com/toonces/toonces2.jpg (http://www.catass.com/toonces/toonces2.avi)

[jras]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Of that, I'd say there is no doubt...as does CB's.

-Ww
she walks these hills in a long black veil...

[MetsSweepYankees]

Originally posted by jp1064
don't forget Toonces.....

LMAO! The price of pussy just went up.

[MetsSweepYankees]

Originally posted by jras
she walks these hills in a long black veil...

Your post actually gave me chills.

[jras]

Originally posted by MetsSweepYankees
Your post actually gave me chills.
http://www.nzmusic.com/artist.cfm?i=26

[jras]

We know who Cat is. Who the fuck is "kitty"?

[Thorn]

Kitty, I hate to admit that I missed this and had to have it pointed out to me but now that it has it leaves me curious.

How is it that you have a registration date that predates Allen's, who mounted the board software on his servers, is its host, and is the very first person to initiate a registration on this software, by a full month [Allen/Dec.2000, Kitty/Nov.2000]?

That's very odd.

[Thorn]

Originally posted by MetsSweepYankees
Geesh. The way everybody talks about this HvB, you would think her ghost still haunts this place. \

As this thread makes more then obvious, in some ways it still does.

[Casper]

Originally posted by jras
how many of you guys who hate(d) hvb were fucking Cat?

I don't think H was allowed out of her sight.

[justme]

Originally posted by Towely
Everyone would view her differently based on which subset of her posts they read. It’s like the old story of five blind guys touching an elephant. Some people felt her trunk, some felt her tusks. I felt her ass and didn’t want to go any further.

You know, I can't even say that this is unfair. Still, she did raise quite a few good points in her career here.

[justme]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
What do you do for relaxation, jm, play catch with live hand grenades, juggle chainsaws or ...?

-Ww

Dude, that's childs' play... for relaxation I see prostitutes.

[justme]

Originally posted by Thorn
I know I posted much less simply because I was around much less, and that was directly due to HvB making this place hard on the eyes.

I don't start, in my own right, anything interesting simply because there isn't a lot of time for me now-days.

You know yourself better than me but I seem to recall that you had some health problems at about the same time. While HvB may have been the final straw, I think it's possible that you would have decreased your posting anyway. Certainly your posting habits now seem to validate that.

[justme]

Originally posted by Thorn
That's like saying that because a tropical storm and a hurricane share similar weather patterns and come from the same place that you can't tell the two apart.

I can tell you how people who get hit by them can tell, one does a lot more damage then the other.

That's how you can tell.

You do remember that I was one of the first people that HvB attacked... right?

And, as I've stated frequently in this thread, ultimately I find many other's behavior to be more offensive than HvB's.

[justme]

Originally posted by Thorn
How about she turned into a little shit who made the board unpalatable to read.

Jeeze, what is so hard to understand.

She was intellectually, exasperatinly, false on many issues. She was, willfully and obviously, hurtful in her attacks. Her posts oozed malicious intent. It was very unpleasant to watch.

She wasn't the first or the worst in this category. I don't want to restart a whoreboardwar unecessarily, but I'm sure you can think of at least two posters that were more guilty of these crimes.

But neither of them are accused with destroying UG.

[justme]

Originally posted by Thorn
A very general comment about those who post personal info on anyone, anywhere.

Historically people have been found laying, lifeless, in back alleys for less. That is simply a fact which people should bare in mind before making such gestures. Its not like we don't have our share of those in 'this thing of ours' who hang onto social norms tenuously at best. Why risk it.

As for the deservedness for such breaks with decorum, this is a debate I shall leave that to others.

I think the post is bullshit, Thorn. Why can't you condemn an obviously condemnable act?

Moreover, you reduce the motivation for not committing an unethical act to fear from punishment. If the only reason people won't do wrong is because they fear retribution than they will feel free to do wrong if they know they can avoid retribution. Perpetuating that kind of principal has nothing to do with creating an ethical society.

[justme]

Originally posted by pjorourke
Does this mean, based on the shit we've exchanged, that you like me?

I'm far too narcissistic to dislike someone so very like me.

[justme]

Originally posted by Thorn
Justme, meet Left Field. Left Field, Justme.

This post is completely useless.

What do you disagree with in the post you quoted? That people were kissing her ass? Or that she attacked people who were unable to handle themselves?

[justme]

Originally posted by Ozzy
I am only saying that allot of people... even just some.... maybe even just ME, left because of HVB. However, several prominent posters here have already said the same… Why can’t that just be accepted. Why are our opinions of this woman not valid? Why must we feel like we have to explain our loathing of her?

This woman played a dirty back handed trick on me playing on my fear that she possibly had my personal info. And because of that, I swore I'd never participate anywhere she was, ever again.

You're free to dislike whoever you want. I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else to like HvB.

Why can't I be free to call you irrational for disliking her? Why is my opinion of your response not respected?

...

So let me get this straight... HvB posted on UG that she wasn't interested in your personal information and that she didn't want it. Then she proceded to never to do anything with whatever personal information on you that she might have gotten.

What a fucking bitch.

Given that she never outted you it makes perfect sense that you think it's perfectly reasonable that her work number was posted on CL.

[justme]

Originally posted by Thorn
I know I posted much less simply because I was around much less, and that was directly due to HvB making this place hard on the eyes. I tried to ignore her at first, but that became increasing difficult as it became obvious there was no place to go on the board that she wasn't, willfully, sticking her obnoxious two cents.

Profile For Thorn
Date Registered: 12-03-2000
Status: I will not taunt the uniformit****ns
Total Posts: 3211 (2.19 posts per day)

Post toals for:

4/2004 - 151
3/2004 - 151
2/2004 - 60
1/2001 - 140
12/2003 - 102
11/2003 - 108
10/2003 - 65

It's hard to see how you posted less during the HvB era.

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by justme
You're free to dislike whoever you want. I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else to like HvB.

Why can't I be free to call you irrational for disliking her? Why is my opinion of your response not respected?

...

So let me get this straight... HvB posted on UG that she wasn't interested in your personal information and that she didn't want it. Then she proceded to never to do anything with whatever personal information on you that she might have gotten.

What a fucking bitch.

Given that she never outted you it makes perfect sense that you think it's perfectly reasonable that her work number was posted on CL.

You know damn fucking well what her intent was when she made that post. No different than if I said right now to shut the fuck up or else I'll use your personal info against you..... Makes no difference if I ever go thru with it or not... the threat was still made. And if you didn't like me because of that threat it makes you irrational?

How dare you fucking tell me I'm irrational for not liking someone who once threatened me.

Unfucking-believable to what extent you’re now going, to defend this fucking cunt. That instead of condemning what she did or what she attempted to do... you’re accusing ME for being irrational because I dislike her for threatening or attempting to threaten me .

So basically what you're saying is that I'm not entitled to dislike someone unless they actually cause some time of harm to me? That I'm being irrational if I dislike someone simply because of their character, their politics, or their racist views etc....

That’s complete bullshit!

[MetsSweepYankees]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by pjorourke
Does this mean, based on the shit we've exchanged, that you like me?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've heard of swapping spit during DFK, but this sounds really kinky. The positioning alone would be a challenge to a gymnast.

[MetsSweepYankees]

Originally posted by Ozzy
you’re accusing ME for being irrational because I dislike her for threatening or attempting to threaten me. That’s complete bullshit!

I can't see how anybody can disagree with that statement (to avoid any misunderstanding, I agree with Ozzy). Hell, some people dislike me only because I root against the Yankers.

[Ghost of HVB]

Originally posted by Ozzy

But considering the direction this thread has taken and the absolute extent somepeople are going to, to paint HVB as someone who was treated unfairly..... you won't have to worry about me here anymore.... I'm going back to my sandbox.

Poor wittle Ozzy WOzzy! Gonna take his wittle wattle and his blankey and go back to his sandbox were all the udder wittle turds walk on eggshells for fear of making him scweam and cwy.

Why don't we talk about the real reasons Ozzy hates HVB and why Ozzy was probably involved at some level in outing her? Ozzy has already told us that there was some justification for outing Johnny K for poking fun at the outers. So if it was OK to out him then why not out her too? And if you think it's Ok to out anyone then how far are you from being an outer?

For all Ozzy's ranting and raving about HVB trying to get his personal information or letting everyone know that she had it, if he wasn't a congenital liar, he'd have to admit that his hostility towards her predated that event by quite some time.

Why then did Ozzy hate HVB? Everyone from far and wide in PMB land knows that, more than anything else in this world, Ozzy craves attention. And how does he get it? First, he tries to impress everyone with how close he is with this prostitute and that prostitute and how he's helped this madam and that madam. Second, he tries convince people that he has at his fingertips all sorts of behind the scenes information long before it reaches the public eye. Most of all he likes to get attention by yelling. Yelling at anyone who disagrees with him. Yes, our boy Ozzy is just a garden variety schoolyard bully who gets his way through intimidation and threats.

You know we often dislike others for things we see in them that remind us of ourselves and it's easy to see that HVB also liked attention. She had her own way of getting it and she was quite successful at it. In fact, she was so successful at it that she stole the limelight from Ozzy. With her wit, intelligence, and education she was able to engage some of the more respected PMB posters in the type of discussion that held the most interest for them. Yes, she engaged them in intellectual, artistic, and philosophical talk as well as banter about the New York restaurant scene.

Poor Ozzy felt abandoned. No one liked or listened to him anymore. All those men whose respect and admiration he yearned for had turned their back on him. Worst of all he knew deep down that he was entirely incapable of engaging them on the level that she could and so he began to hate HVB. Much of this came from his deep seeated envy of her education and her academic achievements. He would never be more than a poor uneducated failure and a dolt from the boroughs who could never keep a steady job (something which he found easy to recognize and criticize HVB for). But unlike her he had no skills or profession he could fall back on and he knew that he would have to eek out a living for the rest of his miserable life off of shady enterprises.

And it is that hate which he feeds on to this very day. And when poor wittle Ozzy found he couldn't convince everyone that HVB was evil and dangerous, he ran away and hid. Just like he did right now. But, you know what? HVB wasn't the only one Ozzy's been jealous of for stealing his thunder. First, it was Kimmie, then it was BMM, then it was Johnny K, and finally it was HVB. Anyone wanna guess who's gonna be next?

[MetsSweepYankees]

ARE YOU KIDDING ME? THE GHOST OF HvB?

I KNEW this place was haunted.

Wait a minute. This was the same post CLman made last night.

Take off that sheet, CLman.

[Stitch]

Ww and Justme--


I think you guys have actually figured out the dynamics of a healthy board. It seems obvious, now, your first tier/second tier analysis, but I'd never thought of it that way...

The "1s" keep conversations alive, maintain the esprit de corps, assume leadership positions. The "2s" provided genetic diversity. They're needed to keep the "1s" from going stale or beginning to bore one another.

By the way, you're too kind about my role as a "2." But you're spot-on that that's my place here.

[Stitch]

One thing I really don't understand....


Putting so much of one's emotional energy into a board...Making it all so personal and taking everything so personally...I mean, IRL usually provides enough emotional sturm und drang.

I like PJs funny remark about fruit flies and wasps. That's the appropriate scale...

[kitty]

Ask Amber.

[Cloud Nine]

Will you people kindly leave me out of this, I have the fortune of putting this BS behind me and have moved on.

[moneyshotsnj]

Originally posted by Cloud Nine
Will you people kindly leave me out of this, I have the fortune of putting this BS behind me and have moved on.


very funny

[Ozzy]

Hello, HVB...

You want to accuse me of having a hand in outing you and the rest and make snide remarks about me...


Well now you've opened the doors to my wrath...

I have your personal information along with all your pals... Had it sent to me by the person who outed you, and have had it for over a year... I sent it to both C9 and Bender long ago cause I thought I was doing you all a favor by letting you know what was out there and a warning about who had it...


So now unless someone forces an unequivocal apology out of you, or I receive an ***** from Bender that GOH isn’t who I think it is and the post is removed….. I'm going to go on every fucking low life board on the internet and post it.


Hows that for living up to you opinion of me.



Have a nice day,

Oz

[justme]

Originally posted by Ozzy
You know damn fucking well what her intent was when she made that post.

No, Ozzy, I don't. But I don't think it was to threaten you. I know you're convinced that it was a threat, but I simply disagree.

Since we lack any consensus on such a basic premise, I think responding to the rest of your post would be pointless.

[justme]

Originally posted by Stitch
Putting so much of one's emotional energy into a board...Making it all so personal and taking everything so personally...I mean, IRL usually provides enough emotional sturm und drang.

I agree that it's dumb to put a lot of emotional energy into a PMB. It's hard to avoid doing so over thousands of posts, though.

Strangely, although I've been in several PMB conversations that have pissed me off to no end, this one hasn't at all.

This one is kind of refreshing.

(Although it is hard)

[justme]

Originally posted by Ozzy
So now unless someone forces an unequivocal apology out of you, or I receive an ***** from Bender that GOH isn’t who I think it is and the post is removed….. I'm going to go on every fucking low life board on the internet and post it.

Am I reading this correctly???

If Bender *****s you that GoH isn't HvB but he refuses to take down the post, you're still going to post HvB's personal info?

And I thought I was destroying all my PMB goodwill...

[justme]

Originally posted by Stitch
The "1s" keep conversations alive, maintain the esprit de corps, assume leadership positions. The "2s" provided genetic diversity. They're needed to keep the "1s" from going stale or beginning to bore one another.

By the way, you're too kind about my role as a "2." But you're spot-on that that's my place here.

Right. I think one of the big hurdles will be reattracting some of those '2' posters who have undoubtedly found better things to do with their time.

You've been a really important contributor. I don't think I overstated.

[Kimmie]

That post by Ghost of HVB was orginally written by CL Man..

I saw it late last nite. The name was obviously changed.

I dont want Ozzy to go on a rampage and do something he will surely regret.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Stitch
I think you guys have actually figured out the dynamics of a healthy board. ...
The "1s" keep conversations alive, maintain the esprit de corps, assume leadership positions. The "2s" provided genetic diversity. They're needed to keep the "1s" from going stale or beginning to bore one another.

On further reflection, I am also increasingly fond of the model/description. I think it gets several things right. Of course, it is obviously a bit oversimplified in various ways, including breaking what is clearly a continuum into two distinct groups, but it is as good a crude model as I have ever heard I think.

(I'd note that "chat regulars" play the role of what are being called "1s" here in many net communities. The times when a thread grows very rapidly due to two or more of the "1s" and some others having what amounts to an online conversation in nearly real time by making an extended series of posts responding back-and-forth to each other is very much like what goes on in a lively chat room and is also a major way that the "1s" accummulate such high post counts. The interface here is a lot clunkier and less natural feeling than a chat room, but of course it has the advantage that the results are recorded so that the conversation can be read, and sometimes restarted, later.)

Re the "2s" I am also increasingly inclined to think that their importance/contribution is easily underestimated, at least to the extent we define "1s" and "2s" solely by total posting frequency or participation in a large fraction of active threads. Or maybe the notion just needs a little re-formulation; it is not so much the total number of posts as the total number of interesting/memorable/entertaining/etc posts that ought to count. Put more bluntly, there are UGers with less than a 1000 posts whose presence or absence makes more difference than others with several 1000s, imo. And I think that jm is right that the "2s" probably turn-over more, are more easily permanently lost and may well be harder to initially attract or win back than the "1s".

-Ww

[jras]

OK- thanks Kimmie (and MSY). Now who the fuck is CL_Man?

[jras]

Originally posted by kitty
Ask Amber.
Amber, who's kitty?
(as opposed to "whose kitty")

[Wwanderer]

Note that both CL MAN and GoH are now banned; I did not notice when or why this happened, although it looks like GoH had only a single post.

jm, I agree with your basic premise that too much blame for "UG's decline" is laid at HvB's door; I think there was more to it than that. However, this thread must surely demonstrate her (at least semi-) unique ability to generate Board drama and strife. Look what just talking about her, nevermind to/with her, is doing here. I still don't understand the mechanism, but I think that the effect is undeniable. And I predict that things will be getting quiet around here again if the sort of stuff in the last few pages of this thread continues to escalate for long.

-Ww

[Towely]

Originally posted by Stitch
The "1s" keep conversations alive, maintain the esprit de corps, assume leadership positions. The "2s" provided genetic diversity. They're needed to keep the "1s" from going stale or beginning to bore one another.

Don’t forget the 8’s. Those are the miners.

[Towely]

Originally posted by Stitch
One thing I really don't understand....


Putting so much of one's emotional energy into a board...Making it all so personal and taking everything so personally...I mean, IRL usually provides enough emotional sturm und drang.

The board is divided into two types of users. For one group the ‘hobby’ is seeing strange women, receiving a mood altering bbbj or whatnot, and going back to daily life.

For the other group the ‘hobby’ is the board itself. These are the self-referential posters. They’re apparently less concerned with finding a quality provider and more concerned with calculating post percentages, keeping track of who has slept with Cat Ballou or mounting a lengthy post mortem Chewbacca defense of hvb.

The two groups share the same message board but use if for vastly different purposes. The second group is a sort of parasite of the first group, for it’s the first groups output that provides the second group’s sustenance.

(And now I’ve posted twice in a row which is the first sign of madness)

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by justme
Am I reading this correctly???

If Bender *****s you that GoH isn't HvB but he refuses to take down the post, you're still going to post HvB's personal info?

And I thought I was destroying all my PMB goodwill...


YES.

[justme]

I cannot deny that I have spent entirely too much time on this thread.

Still, I think it would be a mistake to suppose that more of my posts have been about UG than about the topic of prostitution.

If I have been drawn too deeply into a metadiscussion, it was only because I became offended at what I saw as a staggering lack of honesty.

On the other hand, I'm positive that I will post thoughtfull replies to any more substantial threads that anyone would like to begin.

[justme]

Originally posted by Ozzy
YES.

You realize what a corner you're painting yourself into here, don't you?

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by justme
I cannot deny that I have spent entirely too much time on this thread.

Still, I think it would be a mistake to suppose that more of my posts have been about UG than about the topic of prostitution.

If I have been drawn too deeply into a metadiscussion, it was only because I became offended at what I saw as a staggering lack of honesty.

On the other hand, I'm positive that I will post thoughtfull replies to any more substantial threads that anyone would like to begin.

I can't understand why you just can't accept my reasons for not liking this woman. Why do I have to have an agenda or making up invalid or irrational reasons to dislike her. I have plenty.... You want me to make a list....

The threat she made not withstanding... aren't her laundry list of character flaws (which YOU pointed out btw) enough reason for anyone to dislike her? I didn't like her before the threat. Didn't like her when she was on JAG, and didn't like her the day she came to UG.

You know me almost 7 or 8 years... and allot better than 99% of the people here.... and you don't know by now that I despise uppity snobs? People who think their shit don't stink or think they're more deserving than the a poor schlep on the street because of their social status or education? You don't see me going after her for of all things... the way she puts down or goes after the less fortunate. Makes no difference if you agree with me that they are less fortunate than her.... I believe that, and that's why I can't stand her.

Yeah... I've been a thug no different than her... But at least I own up to it and until the last week or so I've avoided pretty much any controversy since I came back here 6 months ago. But I never went after innocent bystanders or the less fortunate... and as CL MAN proves once again... nearly every time I get into it with someone... they end up discrediting themselves without any help from me. So I don't go after innocents with intent like she did.

And I’ve painted myself in corners before…. I’m still not fully convinced a women didn’t write that post…. Maybe HVB is humping Mopar now. And there’s details in that post that lead me to believe that the person who can get me out of this corner might know GOH and at one time may have made some off the cuff mention of a detail or two not realizing it would ever be used against me.

[Ozzy]

And not 4 nothing.... but if that post were about you... wouldn't you want it down? Wouldn't you deserve to have it taken down? It was taken down last night... why not now especially since todays was posted under an alias with one post. What point is it serving to leave it up?

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Stitch
One thing I really don't understand....
Putting so much of one's emotional energy into a board...Making it all so personal and taking everything so personally...

Hey dude, how many deep mysteries of the universe do you expect us to solve in one week?

-Ww

[justme]

Originally posted by Ozzy
And not 4 nothing.... but if that post were about you... wouldn't you want it down? Wouldn't you deserve to have it taken down? It was taken down last night... why not now especially since todays was posted under an alias with one post. What point is it serving to leave it up?

If that post were written about me, I'd rather it stayed up because I would assume that it reflected more poorly on the author than on myself.

[Ozzy]

read your mail

[justme]

Ozzy -

I'm not questioning your right to dislike HvB. I'm not questioning anyone's right to dislike anyone else.

What I'm questioning is what I think are a set of myths that I believe are simply not true.

[MetsSweepYankees]

Originally posted by Towely
Don’t forget the 8’s. Those are the miners.

The 1's need to watch out for the spy.

[3rd Rail]

Originally posted by Ozzy



And you know my way before I changed ? I KNEW you were someone who's changed his name and has come back to stir trouble....

Speaking of people who've come back under more than one assumed name to stir up trouble....

Originally posted by The Ghost of Ozzy
Never said we did.. the gist of that opst was addressed to Kimmie (although some pertained to you)

2. (a) i'm not judging you

You absolutely have. You've done it to JL in that stripper thread and you've done it to several in this thread. Obviously if you can't even admit to what you're doing than this is a dead issue and I won't beat any horses.




(your insecurity about who you are and what you do is so obvious it's heartbreaking.)


Please refrain from psychoanalyzing me. If I wanted that I'd pay $300 an hour and go see a witch doctor with a degree. This is what Kimmie* does, and if she does it one more time I'll analyze her and she won't like what embarrasing things Dr. Ozzy has to say.

And if you or anyone think I have anger issues IRL than why not ask Slinky who has probably spent close to a thousand hours with me... if I've ever raised my voice to someone.


(*as do most woman (prostitutes) who come to these boards, because their usually so fucking damaged themselves that they've spent half their life lying on a couch)

(b)you do this ALL the time. WHY?


I absolutely do not. I don't judge people. I tell plenty what I personally think of them, I tell plenty to go and fuck themselves... But I DO NOT JUDGE ANYONE. This is the single biggest reason most woman in this business that I've gotten to know personally give when they're asked why they like Ozzy.

If you or anyone don't believe me, than ask April or the nearest member of Team Brazil.


3. i don't know who they are, but do you think you're the one that defines what this or any place is? a sanctuary hardly. you know where to find sanctuary, but you refuse to go there.

I don't define anything... This place is what it is. A place for people to discuss prostitution, the various woman who are involved in it, the various services woman provide and various other aspects of this business.

It's not a place for anyone to shake a finger in anyone elses face and tell them how evil or wrong they are for participating in it.



i see you think i am threatening you,


What you posted about receiving or being in possession of *my* personal information is tantamount to blackmail (you claim to be a lawyer than you should know this). You chose to post that so *I* and others could see it. You could have responded to those people who sent it to you thru the same e*mail from which you received it. The only purpose served in posting about it was to show me and the rest of the board that you were privy to my personal info.

Again (even though I said I would not discuss the matter),

1) There's is absolutely no way you have received any valid info on me whats-o-ever. I for reasons other than this board or business have always been extremely careful about that sort of thing. Shit! my own home phone isn't even in my name.

2) You know how bent I got just from tank posting my first name on JAG... How do you expect me to react to your post about what you claim is *MY* personal info being passed around back channel?


And you can perceive this as as a threat or not... But I will find out who sent you what you think you have because fortunately the internet is both a hackers paradise and big brother, ******s are basically saved on servers for up to 30 days sometimes.... and with one phone call to a good friend who has the will and the know-how, and one favor owed, I will be privy to every ****** you have received in the last 48 hours. I'll also be privy to all those IP addresses (thus their names and address) of those who felt it was their business to invade my privacy.

Lets see how they feel when I start dropping their names and address all over the place like bombs.

That post was made in July of 2003 and what happened subsequently? Hvb was outed along with a few other posters and UG posting as well as all PMB posting declined. So, if we were to look at facts rather than prejudiced opinions wouldn't the more likely conclusion be that Ozzy and not HvB ruined UG and drove off posters.

Now, Ozzy threatens outing HvB again. Can anyone predict what the likely outcome of this will be?

Oh, and to all the boys with their heads in the sandbox, I hope you sleep comfortably at night knowing that Ozzy has your personal info, too.

[Gooey2k]

Originally posted by 3rd Rail
Oh, and to all the boys with their heads in the sandbox, I hope you sleep comfortably at night knowing that Ozzy has your personal info, too.

HA! Thats a good one.

Just incase anybody is curious....that statement is entirely impossible.

[Ozzy]

First off 3rd rail, CLMan...... Mopar, Candide... the list of possible suspects isn't that long?


It's one thing to hide behind different names and slander like you do and another to just make up new ones and openly admit who you are. I've never bashed anyone under an assumed name... (everyone knew I was GOO and VV) I do that myself cause I want people to know it's me yelling at them.

I have changed names on occasion to post reviews and make quick comments in on topic threads. Though I haven't used an alias since the ghost of Ozzy over a year ago. Bender can check cause I only log on from one IP.

And NO I never posted a review of a Brazilain of one of my various provider friends using an alias.


Now about your point... That threat, if you want to call it that was made 16 months ago. The outings you speak of happened about 6 months or so ago.... So there's a ten month time frame you're leaving out of your pitch to blame me for.


Now here's a threat..... Since you continue to keep changing names and come here just to slander me..... When I find out who you are.... and I will find out.... I'll stop at nothing to discover your real identity and then you'll find out just how big a fucking thug I can be. Just keep adding to your post count.... cause you're simply adding more pain to you misery when I catch up to you.

And if this is a rule violation so be it... But so long as these posts show up... and stay up, I'm not about to wait until this fucking piece of shit crosses the line first. I have a right to defend myself anyway I see fit..... Mr Bush said so himself.


Happy Holidays.

[3rd Rail]

Originally posted by Gooey2k
HA! Thats a good one.

Just incase anybody is curious....that statement is entirely impossible.

If you really believe this then you're a bigger fool than you appear to be. He's got your IP and if can't get your info from that he can always ask his business partner April.

[Ozzy]

Now where did I put those battery cables?

[3rd Rail]

Originally posted by Ozzy
Now where did I put those battery cables?

Their in my trunk with my Mossberg 500.

[Ozzy]

You'll never make it to your trunk.

[3rd Rail]

Originally posted by Ozzy
You'll never make it to your trunk.

No matter, my .45 back-up will take you out first.

[Ozzy]

What kind of .45?

[3rd Rail]

Originally posted by Ozzy
What kind of .45?

Ozzy Wozzy, I love when you talk like such a big bad man and we can have a fun gun talk, but I'd much rather talk about how big a man it makes you feel to threaten to torture and out someone merely for telling the truth about little old you.

[Ozzy]

Listen Mope, I already know who you are. A woman like Candie or HVB wouldn't know a mossberg if one was shoved up her ass. Not too many as knowledgeable about me besides you would have poor April on their hit list as I accused you of last week (see how great I am at this).....

Now.... Assuming you're not talking shit and do own a mossberg (that's a hunting pump action shotgun... right?)... How long do you think it will take my infamous FBI friend to cross reference all the registered mossberg owners with .45 owners with hunting license renewals over say... the last five years.... in the tri state area..... And how many hits do you think he'll get.....


I'll tell you.... Not fucking long, and not fucking many.



You wanna keep playing my game... cause every fucking post you make from now on, in this or any thread will put me one step closer to your door.

[3rd Rail]

Originally posted by Gooey2k
HA! Thats a good one.

Just incase anybody is curious....that statement is entirely impossible.

Wonder if Gooey is thinking "Damn 3 minute edit rule."?

[Ozzy]

New Jersey.... Right?

[3rd Rail]

Originally posted by Ozzy
New Jersey.... Right?

Nahhhh, I can't help you anymore. You're just to good at this. Bwahahahhahahha!!!!!

[Gooey2k]

Originally posted by 3rd Rail
Wonder if Gooey is thinking "Damn 3 minute edit rule."?

Not really.

But considering my IP tracks back to a 67 year old lady named Elsie about 50 miles from me. I have nothing to worry about. Want her address? I'll give it to you.

Plus I don't really know the man, but it seems to me that Ozzy only fucks with people that fuck with him first. So again, I have nothing to worry about.

Ah, The wonders of technology, and the knowledge to use it....

By the way, contrary to your belief, it takes much more then the AOL account you probably use to find precise locations Mr. Wizard.

[Towely]

For a moment I thought being moved to the Coliseum was a bad thing, since it made it harder to check the thread. Then I realized it's a good thing, since I no longer want to read the thread.

[justme]

Originally posted by Towely
For a moment I thought being moved to the Coliseum was a bad thing, since it made it harder to check the thread. Then I realized it's a good thing, since I no longer want to read the thread.

I bet my twenty aught nine'll change your mind. If that won't than my security cleared Echalon feed will.

Or maybe these cookies... do you want some cookies?

[Truth]

Originally posted by Gooey2k
Not really.

But considering my IP tracks back to a 67 year old lady named Elsie about 50 miles from me. I have nothing to worry about.


Hey, that's MY house!!!

[3rd Rail]

Not a single word posted in this thread for 48 hrs and this pops up on CL forum 6996

To Mick & Keith... aka Ghost of HVb,CLMan, Mopar < 0z > 12/10 06:13:38

I will find out who you are and will deal with you accrdingly. Unlike my pal Bender I know the only way to stop shit it to take decisive action before it ever gets out of hand.


I will be at your door very shortly if this keeps up. I will now be checking in here daily to make sure what happened to Bender and the rest doesn't happen to me.

You know not who you're fucking with.


Happy Holidays.
Oz


More ranting and more threats from someone who continues to show that he is unstable and in the process of a meltdown. His post there is more evidence that he was involved in the outings this summer.

I posted the truth and you posted your lies. I never outed anyone and I never will, but you clearly have. Only someone capable of doing that would post what you posted here and on the CL forums.

Keep on going Oz, you're letting everyone know exactly who and what you are and I guarantee that it ain't a pretty sight. I've proved what I came to prove and you've helped me every step of the way. I think my work is done.

[Casper]

So everything posted on CL is in it of itself credible?
Then perhaps all the TER reviews are real.

I say we should all step out of the mix and let those parties deal with it themselves.

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by Casper
So everything posted on CL is in it of itself credible?
Then perhaps all the TER reviews are real.They are both as reliable as CBS News.

[moneyshotsnj]

Shit, I thought, hopefully, that this thread was dead.

[Thorn]

Originally posted by justme
You know yourself better than me but I seem to recall that you had some health problems at about the same time. While HvB may have been the final straw, I think it's possible that you would have decreased your posting anyway. Certainly your posting habits now seem to validate that.

You may have a point. However, it comes not for the direction you might presume.

During that time I will admit that my circumstances caused me to become far less tolerant of BS. Even my own. :)

[Thorn]

Originally posted by justme
I think the post is bullshit, Thorn. Why can't you condemn an obviously condemnable act?

Moreover, you reduce the motivation for not committing an unethical act to fear from punishment. If the only reason people won't do wrong is because they fear retribution than they will feel free to do wrong if they know they can avoid retribution. Perpetuating that kind of principal has nothing to do with creating an ethical society.

I think you misread my intent, if not the post.

Why don't I condem it? I think my post makes it vary obvious that I condem it. What it says is that I won't debate it. The answer for that is two fold. The merits of the argument make themselves, thus there is no reason to debate something so obvious. The second is, in circumstances where something is so obviously wrong yet someone has reached the point where they have decided to do it anyway, nothing is going to dissuade them. Not my opinion, not yours, so why bother?

As to the fear of punishment. Again, I am just stating the obvious. I am not condoning it, nor making a threat of it myself. I am simply saying that we know for a fact that there are some fairly off center types that can be involved in 'this thing of ours', on both sides of the equation. Why risk becoming a target of a socio-pathological type by outting their info? That's all I am saying. Seems like common sense to me.

[Thorn]

Originally posted by MetsSweepYankees
ARE YOU KIDDING ME? THE GHOST OF HvB?

.

It ain't no real ghost. Its one of them there, ah, whatcha ma call its... a... a sphincter.

Now wait, maybe that should be specter..... [scratching head].

No, I was right the first time. :)

[Thorn]

Originally posted by kitty
Ask Amber.

Could you possible be any more cryptic?

How about a simple direct answer to a direct question.

[justme]

Originally posted by Thorn
I think you misread my intent, if not the post.

Why don't I condem it? I think my post makes it vary obvious that I condem it. What it says is that I won't debate it.

Why risk becoming a target of a socio-pathological type by outting their info? That's all I am saying. Seems like common sense to me.

1. Probably.

2. OK, definitely

3. I still think arguing against bad behavior with a punishment argument isn't a good strategy in the long run.

[John Blackthorne]

I didn't stop posting because of HvB...I just have other things to do.

And I am not particularly fragile.

BUT...

I think she was the most obnoxious poster I have ever come across, and I think she hurt this board more than added to it.

JB

[Casper]

Originally posted by pjorourke
They are both as reliable as CBS News.

At least they acknowledge the fact that when you tune into their station, you'll C BS :D

[MetsSweepYankees]

Originally posted by Casper
At least they acknowledge the fact that when you tune into their station, you'll C BS :D

Good one!

I'd "rather" tune in elsewhere.

[Thorn]

Originally posted by justme
3. I still think arguing against bad behavior with a punishment argument isn't a good strategy in the long run.

Ah, I see. That is were we parted ways. You think I am using a strategy and all I was doing is pointing out something that can be verified by watching the evening news.

That being that people can, have, and continued to do bad things for less then having their info plastered all over a public forum of this sort.

All I pointed out is, for the very minor satisfaction it might bring, why risk it.