Falling for a client [Archive]

ExLS

10-19-2002, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie
We have discussed clients developing feelings for providers. It seems to be a very popular situation. Obviously it is easy for men to fall for the charms and skills of a provider.

However, what if she starts to care about and like YOU?

I am not referring to her telling you she likes you just so she can get your business..... Has she ever stopped taking your money, and still wanted to see you?

I dont want to put my fellow providers here on the spot, but ladies, have any of you ever cared about, or worse, fallen for a client?

I do not mean fall "in love" with a client.

I don't think it is possible to love someone you do not know.

Nor do I believe it is possible to "love" someone who has paid/pays for your services, or whos services you pay/paid for.* Even if you reach a point where money is no longer being exchanged.

* This is just my opinion. I am not saying it cant happen, or hasnt happen, or that it isnt real love if it does happen.

Interesting topic. Personally, I don't stick with any one provider that long enough where that has happen. I have seen exotic dancers to a point where we dated or become VERY good friends. I tend to come across as the big brother to many people in the adult entertainment business. I believe that it is hard for the provider to fall in love. Why? It is the exchange of cash. Do you and He go out in public? Show them to your family? I wish that I had the research, but waht about the psychological factors??? Were you abused? what made you start in the business in the first place? Money for school? Family? Fun?
I have heard that a LI provider(Alexus) did run off with a customer(Happydancer 631 can verify).
When I see a provider, I like to make them feel at ease with small talk and then I rub their back or asking if they want a drink(romance them???) Usually, proivders are shocked when I do this. anyway, I would like to here others espcially from the providers standpoint because I have asked this question before.

Dr. Strangelove

10-19-2002, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie
Has she ever stopped taking your money, and still wanted to see you?

Yes.

Kimmie

10-19-2002, 01:35 PM

ah I kinda edited my wording there so what I said came off correctly..

Anyway, I dont like when clients start to ask me personal questions like the ones you just posted above. I tell them straight out.. None of your business.

Cesar why would you care if she was abused or why she is a hooker? Do you also ask her how many men do you see, how many have you seen so far today?

I really really hate being asked those questions..

::shudder::

ah Dr love.. Care to share a little more with the class please? I am looking for some input here..

Thanks.

Dr. Strangelove

10-19-2002, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie
....why would you care if she was abused or why she is a hooker? Do you also ask her how many men do you see, how many have you seen so far today?

To me, it doesn't matter. Everyone has something in their past that is best left in the past.

Dr. Strangelove

10-19-2002, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie
ah Dr love.. Care to share a little more with the class please?

No.

fallenwoman

10-19-2002, 02:45 PM

Kimmie,

I know what you're thinking here about money not being exchanged, but I don't think it's necessarily true. I mean men still hand over their paychecks to their wives to pay the bills, and they love them, no? Money in exchange for sex has nothing to do with whether a person develops feelings for the provider or not. It all depends on the personalities, really.
I believe that there are some clients who see girls just to get off. That's it. And there are others who like to develop a friendship. And that's it. And sometimes you meet someone (provider and client) who is more vulnerable and open and you feel something we sometimes call love. Honestly, I don't think any of it has to do with the cash. Money comes in to pay the bills and make your life a little easier to handle.
Before I was in the business, I had this boyfriend who would slip $100 bills into my wallet. He knew I was struggling, and it never bothered me that he did it. It always seemed to me that he just wanted to help me out without making it look like he was being a "knight and shining armour" saying-- "Oh, you're short on cash this week... HERE... I CAN HELP YOU OUT!!!!" I feel the same way when I develop feelings for a client. Wow, I really like this person and they are helping me with my life. I know alot of girls don't see it the same way. Either, they don't want to feel anything for someone they met thru this line of work, or if they care about a client, they'll ask them to stop paying. But I guess this has infiltrated so deeply into my life, that the lines are very blurred. And for the record, the only abuse I ever received in my life was from myself. And it's consensual. Or I think it is, hold on, let me go check with myself... anyway... my 2 cents in the back of the classroom.
your loving admirer,
fw

njclassyblonde

10-19-2002, 03:47 PM

I have fallen for a client and him for me , but for circumstances that I wont discuss on here, it came to an abrupt end.I do think about him alot and know deep in my heart I will hear from him again.I will never forget the first time we where together, he was surprised how sensous I was the way that I kissed him and the way he kissed me back, what can I say I am a romantic., the falling for eachother came over time.
I didnt get into this business thinking that a Richard Gere like charecter in pretty women was going to whisk me away, and I did not expect to fall for a cient either, but I dont think I will allow it to happen again.

paulus

10-19-2002, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by fallenwoman
Kimmie,

I know what you're thinking here about money not being exchanged, but I don't think it's necessarily true. I mean men still hand over their paychecks to their wives to pay the bills, and they love them, no? Money in exchange for sex has nothing to do with whether a person develops feelings for the provider or not. It all depends on the personalities, really.
I believe that there are some clients who see girls just to get off. That's it. And there are others who like to develop a friendship. And that's it. And sometimes you meet someone (provider and client) who is more vulnerable and open and you feel something we sometimes call love. Honestly, I don't think any of it has to do with the cash. Money comes in to pay the bills and make your life a little easier to handle.
Before I was in the business, I had this boyfriend who would slip $100 bills into my wallet. He knew I was struggling, and it never bothered me that he did it. It always seemed to me that he just wanted to help me out without making it look like he was being a "knight and shining armour" saying-- "Oh, you're short on cash this week... HERE... I CAN HELP YOU OUT!!!!" I feel the same way when I develop feelings for a client. Wow, I really like this person and they are helping me with my life. I know alot of girls don't see it the same way. Either, they don't want to feel anything for someone they met thru this line of work, or if they care about a client, they'll ask them to stop paying. But I guess this has infiltrated so deeply into my life, that the lines are very blurred. And for the record, the only abuse I ever received in my life was from myself. And it's consensual. Or I think it is, hold on, let me go check with myself... anyway... my 2 cents in the back of the classroom.
your loving admirer,
fw

Your comments are like a breath of fresh air. Thank you.

I am sick and tired of hearing providers depersonalize their clients by classfying them as "bookings" ('she has had many satisfied bookings'); or as "appointments"; or sometimes simply as a support system existing for the sole purpose of providing mobility for a penis.

It is beyond me also why providers constantly emphasize that "this is a business". Of course, it is a business but the idea is to some extent to create the illusion that it is not. Similarly we all know that a movie is not for real, yet we do not want a sign flashing every five minutes during the performance saying "REMEMBER: This is a movie; it is not for real".

Now I am at it, it is also incomprehensible for the same reason when providers mail out detailed lists of what times are taken and when they have "openings" (hopefully they always have openings). Are we as clients supposed to be motivated to fill the last one of the openings? "Yeah man, I just love to be squeezed in between the first three of the day and the last two to complete her target of half a dozen". Is that the way guys think?

Real people dont stop being people just because they are in the role of john or providers. And you take whatever you can get of valuable relationships wherever you can get them. As the old saw goes, 'you can get pussy everywhere, but a friend is hard to find'.

Paulus
Stalingrad - Mon Amour

BigMadM

10-19-2002, 05:06 PM

I once had a girl fall for me.
She was coming out of the jacuzzi and fell right on her ass.
I would have helped her up, but her girlfriend was busy sucking my dick and it was kind of hard to get up.
I was a gentlemen though.
After my orgasm, I went to the Icemachine and filled a little plastic bag with ice so she could get the bruise and swelling down.(her bruise)

Slinky Bender

10-19-2002, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by paulus
Are we as clients supposed to be motivated to fill the last one of the openings?

Freudian ?

paulus

10-19-2002, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by slinkybender

Freudian ?

No, just Pauluvian

Kimmie

10-19-2002, 07:00 PM

Dr. Strangelove

10-19-2002, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie
I think men could not possibly "love" someone, or even on some level respect someone, who gets paid to fuck.

How can you possibly know what a guy is thinking?

Originally posted by Kimmie
And not charging them anymore isnt going to EVER change how you met. It also will NOT make him see you any differently, or YOU see him any differently.

What difference does it make how two people meet?

Dr. Strangelove

10-19-2002, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie
Why would a john want to fall for a hooker, a woman who takes money for sex?

Maybe because he got to know the woman she is.

Maybe because she became his best friend.

Dr. Strangelove

10-19-2002, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie
And not charging them anymore isnt going to EVER change how you met. It also will NOT make him see you any differently, or YOU see him any differently.

What a crock of bull.

Kimmie

10-19-2002, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by Dr. Strangelove

How can you possibly know what a guy is thinking?

What difference does it make how two people meet?

I dont know what a guy is thinking. Everything I am posting is my opinion. Not known facts.

It makes a big difference.

Kimmie

10-19-2002, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by Dr. Strangelove

Maybe because he got to know the woman she is.

Maybe because she became his best friend.

Being friends is one thing Dr love. Thats ok. I have johns who became friends.

I am mean love. REAL deep down LOVE.

It isnt possible.

That is my opinion.

Dr. Strangelove

10-19-2002, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie
It makes a big difference.

So if you meet a guy who you are paying for his services, such as car repair or a doctor, it's wrong for you to fall for him, because it's just business?

Kimmie

10-19-2002, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by Dr. Strangelove

So if you meet a guy who you are paying for his services, such as car repair or a doctor, it's wrong for you to fall for him, because it's just business?

I never said it is wrong. I dont think it is wrong. I just dont think it is possible. And you can not compare using the services of a car repair guy or a doctor, to using the services of a hooker.

You are taking too much of what I am saying to heart Dr Love.

I have nothing against johns/ ex johns and hookers liking each other, or caring about each other.

I have become friends with a few of my clients. One I see off the clock. I like them, but I dont think there could ever be love involved. Mostly because of how we met each other.

I had this conversation not too long ago, with a man who was once a client. I cant quite call him a friend, but he surely isnt my lover. I told him I dont think you will ever respect me, because of how we met. He disagreed of course, but I could tell I had him thinking.

Respect is a very big thing to me.

I truly feel that, on some level, there is lack of respect between johns and hookers. And even if they started to see each other and no money were involved, it would not change.

Dr. Strangelove

10-19-2002, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie
I never said it is wrong. I dont think it is wrong. I just dont think it is possible. And comparing using the services of a doctor or car repair guy, doesnt compare.

So it's who providing the service and who's doing the falling?

Originally posted by Kimmie
I truly feel that, on some level, there is lack of respect between johns and hookers.

I respect my friend on the same level that I respect my sister. And I love my sister.

Psychosis

10-19-2002, 08:21 PM

I think men could not possibly "love" someone, or even on some level respect someone, who gets paid to fuck.

On this subject I believe you are wrong Kimmie. When I posted earlier that I had stopped hobbying because I got into a serious relationship, the relationship was with a provider. During the time we were together she continued to see clients and while I was a little uneasy with it I still loved her very much. She was accustomed to being able to buy what she wanted when she wanted and I told her that I would buy her whatever she needed.This was not good for her because she was very independant but when we decided to marry she said she would quit and let me take care of her. Sadly and to very much heartache she was taken away from me by an asshole drunk driver who did not see the red light and hit her as she was crossing the street. But I will tell you again that even though she continued to see clients during the time we were together this did not stop me and couldn't stop me from feeling the way I felt about her.

Kimmie

10-19-2002, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by paulus

Real people dont stop being people just because they are in the role of john or providers. And you take whatever you can get of valuable relationships wherever you can get them. As the old saw goes, 'you can get pussy everywhere, but a friend is hard to find'.

Paulus
Stalingrad - Mon Amour

Paulus, I am sorry I didnt get a chance to respond to your reply and I really wanted to.

Thank you for quoting me!! I truly believe that a friend is way more important then pussy.

I adore the friends I have made, and I am happy to say if not for UG, they would not be my friends. They are probably the best men I have ever met since I have a been a hooker.

Basically I began this thread because I think providers can fall for their clients quite as easily as clients fall for them.

I re read the thread, which Slinky just resurrected, I made about Obsessed Clients. It got me thinking that I am sure there are girls out there falling for and obsessing over clients as well, Mistakenly thinking its love.

I truly believe that respect and love is not possible between johns and hookers. I am sorry if no one likes what I am saying, but I am just being honest about my opinion.

Psychosis. I am very sorry for your loss. I am sure she was very special to you.

When my boyfriend asked me to marry him many, many years ago, I quit being a hooker, took the loss of money, my independence, and buying nice things for myself, to be with him. No he was not a client. He didnt even know what I did for a living.

Of course, I regret it now. But thats another story.

Kimmie

10-19-2002, 09:43 PM

Then again...

Last year I didnt think it was possible for providers and clients to be friends.. and look at me now, three very good friends who are or once were, clients...

greekgirlinnj

10-19-2002, 10:05 PM

KIMMIE

yes i believe its possible...u know how i feel about that one special one...yep he captured my heart and though we dont see each other enuff its good enough for me (hes very single)

im a romantic just follow your heart

Kimmie

10-19-2002, 10:14 PM

Dee, I swear I was not even thinking of you and your situation when I made this post.

I am sure you care very deeply for him, and him for you. Even though he was once your client.

I did not mean my post to be an insult to you two. You know I adore him too and think he is a stand up guy and the biggest gentleman out there.

I am simply going by my own experiences and what I know..

Bebop

10-19-2002, 11:32 PM

There was a provider who put the cash back in my drawer before she left. She called me the following week as well to see me, which I declined.

I really don't know what was on her mind.

jstarsix

10-20-2002, 12:53 AM

I am not a very frequent poster on this site, but this thread happened to catch my interest. Unfortunately, I do not have much to share in local info, as most of my hobbying has happened overseas, hence the lack of my posting.

Ultimately, in regards to the subject at hand, we are all human, and are not immune to what makes us so.

There is a provider that I saw a couple of times while living in Australia, and she ultimately became someone I became very close to. In all reality, I do not know who fell for who first. Perhaps the attraction was mutual between both of us. I paid for her companionship a few times, then at her suggestion, we went out for drinks, dinner, dancing, etc.... We had a wonderful evening together, and started spending more and more time with each other as time progressed. When one relationship stopped, and when the other started, is still a hazy memory for me.

My contract in Sydney came to and end, and I had to move back to the states. She has remained a very close freind, and visits me here a couple of times a year. Unfortunately, the timing is off for both us.

So, IMHO, it's possible.

Ozzy

10-20-2002, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by Kimmie

I think men could not possibly "love" someone, or even on some level respect someone, who gets paid to fuck.

And not charging them anymore isnt going to EVER change how you met. It also will NOT make him see you any differently, or YOU see him any differently.

Kimmie...

you know that when we met and discussed a certain person that I dated (an ex-provider), that this simply is not true. as for "respect", I give that to ANYONE who i feel deserves it.

and thats coming from a cold hearted fuck like me.

akshun

10-20-2002, 06:08 AM

Originally posted by Kimmie

Cesar why would you care if she was abused or why she is a hooker? Do you also ask her how many men do you see, how many have you seen so far today?

You ask about abuse because you care about her as a person. I she was hurt and I could help in some way, I would.

I wouldn't ask her about how many guys she sees. That is her business and if she doesn't have clients, she doesn't eat, have a place to live, etc. You can't start grading her on a scale (1 client a day, your cool with me; 2 clients a day, I'm not so comfortable with that; 3 clients a day, now your pushing it, etc). I think that would only be legit if you were willing to support her.

akshun

10-20-2002, 06:16 AM

Originally posted by Kimmie

Being friends is one thing Dr love. Thats ok. I have johns who became friends.

I am mean love. REAL deep down LOVE.

It isnt possible.

That is my opinion.

I have a problem with people who state absolutes (not meant in an argumentative way; it's just that I sigh to myself and hten set on the path of trying to make them recant thier statement. Sometimes its easy, sometimes it isn't and I don't know how much mental energy I have to expend).

Wasn't there a song (maybe in the 80's) with the refrain 'people change, feelings change......" ( I forget the rest).

Don't place limits on what humans can experience, feel get over or ignore. When we see how much evil is being done in our world (things that we couldn't believe were possible), why not hold out for the chance that something good can happen?

akshun

10-20-2002, 06:18 AM

Originally posted by Psychosis
I think men could not possibly "love" someone, or even on some level respect someone, who gets paid to fuck.

On this subject I believe you are wrong Kimmie. When I posted earlier that I had stopped hobbying because I got into a serious relationship, the relationship was with a provider. During the time we were together she continued to see clients and while I was a little uneasy with it I still loved her very much. She was accustomed to being able to buy what she wanted when she wanted and I told her that I would buy her whatever she needed.This was not good for her because she was very independant but when we decided to marry she said she would quit and let me take care of her. Sadly and to very much heartache she was taken away from me by an asshole drunk driver who did not see the red light and hit her as she was crossing the street. But I will tell you again that even though she continued to see clients during the time we were together this did not stop me and couldn't stop me from feeling the way I felt about her.

I'm sorry for your loss

greekgirlinnj

10-20-2002, 06:43 AM

Originally posted by akshun

I have a problem with people who state absolutes (not meant in an argumentative way; it's just that I sigh to myself and hten set on the path of trying to make them recant thier statement. Sometimes its easy, sometimes it isn't and I don't know how much mental energy I have to expend).

Wasn't there a song (maybe in the 80's) with the refrain 'people change, feelings change......" ( I forget the rest).

Don't place limits on what humans can experience, feel get over or ignore. When we see how much evil is being done in our world (things that we couldn't believe were possible), why not hold out for the chance that something good can happen?

that song was by expose titled "seasons change"

greekgirlinnj

10-20-2002, 06:44 AM

mr psychosis

my deepest heartfelt sympathies

Flounder

10-20-2002, 07:22 AM

Originally posted by greekgirlinnj

that song was by expose titled "seasons change"

I saw them at Radio City back in the late 80s.

Kimmie

10-20-2002, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by Ozzy

Kimmie...

you know that when we met and discussed a certain person that I dated (an ex-provider), that this simply is not true. as for "respect", I give that to ANYONE who i feel deserves it.

and thats coming from a cold hearted fuck like me.

Ozzy, first let me say WELCUM BACK! I missed fighting with you I hope this means you are sticking around.

Ok, back to topic.

Yes, you did share that with me, and I am not questioning your feelings for her, or hers for you. Howeve,r I know what a real prick you are. So I cant imagine you respecting anyone.

Like I said this is all just my opinion.

bebop mentioned a girl leaving the money in the draw and asking to see him the next day.. I wonder why did he turn her down???

Kimmie

10-20-2002, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by akshun

Don't place limits on what humans can experience, feel get over or ignore. When we see how much evil is being done in our world (things that we couldn't believe were possible), why not hold out for the chance that something good can happen?

Good things can happen, and they do happen, but there is always a condition or consequence that lets you down.

If I believed that johns could respect hookers or even love them, I would open myself to that, and then, as sure as I love to suck dick, I would be shown that it is total romanticized BULL SHIT!

Nah, I will stick to this belief because its probably a more rational theory.

Caitlin of New York

10-20-2002, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by paulus

Now I am at it, it is also incomprehensible for the same reason when providers mail out detailed lists of what times are taken and when they have "openings" (hopefully they always have openings). Are we as clients supposed to be motivated to fill the last one of the openings? "Yeah man, I just love to be squeezed in between the first three of the day and the last two to complete her target of half a dozen". Is that the way guys think?

Paulus
Stalingrad - Mon Amour

Paulus,

You assume that all she does with her time is service clients. For some reason, clients seem to forget that we do other things besides have sex all the time. If it still bothers you, don't ask when she is available.

Caitlin

Caitlin of New York

10-20-2002, 11:11 AM

Psychosis,

I am very sorry for your loss.

Caitlin

akshun

10-20-2002, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie

If I believed that johns could respect hookers or even love them, I would open myself to that, and then, as sure as I love to suck dick, I would be shown that it is total romanticized BULL SHIT!

Nah, I will stick to this belief because its probably a more rational theory.

Here's my problem with that. Have you ever asked any john if that is true? What if 1000 guys said 'yes, your premise is true', but 1 guy said 'no, I believe I could look past that'. Is he a liar, naive, a jerk, stupid? Or is he the ONE guy who actually can get over it?

Your statments make it seem as if you know what is possible for another person to feel without asking them. I don't necessarily believe your statement is more rational. I believe you've rationalized your point of view because this protects you from being hurt and helps to keep your world view (or maybe romantic view) simple (I'm not a psychologist or psychiarist). Probably nothing wrong with that as long as you find support for that view.

buddyyy

10-20-2002, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie

I think men could not possibly "love" someone, or even on some level respect someone, who gets paid to fuck.

From the girls stand point. How can she love someone who use to pay her to fuck him?

And even if she no longer takes his money because she enjoys the way he fucks her, she would never really love him. He not only pays her for sex, but he pays other girls for sex.

Is it possible to love someone like that? I mean really love?

Like them, YES. Understand them, YES. But love?

Love is a big word, used too much, even in this profession.
.......

Why would a john want to fall for a hooker, a woman who takes money for sex?

Why would a hooker fall for a man who pays girls to fuck him?

They dont want to. They cant!

And not charging them anymore isnt going to EVER change how you met. It also will NOT make him see you any differently, or YOU see him any differently.

If you are right, and I don’t believe you are, I would have to think long are hard (no pun) about continuing to hobby.

While you are addressing different specific circumstances:

- Can a john and a hooker, who met as such, ever love each other?
- Can a man ever love a woman who works as a hooker?
- Can women ever love a man who sees hookers?
- Can a man ever love a woman who has worked as a hooker?
- Can a woman ever love a man who has ever seen hookers?

it is very difficult not to answer all of these questions, regardless if you answer yes or no, in the same way.

This is not to say that each individual man/john and woman/hooker might not have different answers to the questions, but if you put any before each instance of man/john and woman/hooker, which is the way in which you have presented the issue it does not seem that the answer to one of these questions could be yes and the other no.

The situations involve different degrees of the presence of the hooker/john issue in the relationship between a man and a women. With the last set of circumstances expressing the least degree of the presence of the issue and the first circumstance offering the greatest.

To see why the answer must be the same (again, when expressed in the contest of all people not from the perspective of any one person) the answer to any one of the questions is yes the answer to all of the questions must be yes, and if no it must be no for all the situations we need only look at the possibility in the extreme instances.

If no man could love any women who ever was a hooker, and no hooker could ever love any man who was a john, it would seem to be the case that the answer only becomes more emphatically no as the presence of the issue becomes greater as it does if the activities are still ongoing or in the most extreme case when it was such activities which actually created the possibility of the relationship.

Similarly if a john can love a hooker when the relationship was created at first by the two meeting each other in those respective roles, it is difficult to see why the answer to the other questions would not also have to be yes.

Clearly though there are men who love women who have been hookers and there are hookers that love men that have been johns. And there are couples that have met each other as hooker and john where the relationship has evolved to love.

So I don’t really think that your position is correct on this issue. This isn’t to say that the issue of the presence of instances of commercial sex on the part of either person does not have the possibility of affecting the evolution of the relationship to love. But in any relationship, any and all actions of either person, either in the past or present has the potential to affect the possibility of the development of the relationship.

I agree with you that love is a big word used much too much. In fact it is easier for me to consider the possibility that love between a specific man and specific woman may not be possible. But if it is possible, I can’t see that there is anything about involvement in commercial sex that precludes the possibility.

But as I said in the beginning, if that were not the case, I don’t think I could continue to participate in the “hobby”. Because if love is a possibility I would not want to be involved in something which resulted in it no longer being a possibility for anyone.

Originally posted by Kimmie
If I believed that johns could respect hookers or even love them, I would open myself to that, and then, as sure as I love to suck dick, I would be shown that it is total romanticized BULL SHIT!

Nah, I will stick to this belief because its probably a more rational theory.

A few observations based on my experience;

Love is not rational

Unlike many of the other feelings we are prone to experience, such as desire, lust, and anger, love is much less boisterous and imposing – it does not come unless invited, nor stay when it is not appreciated.

I really can’t believe that in a universe with such a nature that it allows us to exist, and also allows the experience of love to exist, that in such a universe any individual would be precluded from experiencing love if they so wish.

Kimmie

10-20-2002, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by akshun

Here's my problem with that. Have you ever asked any john if that is true? What if 1000 guys said 'yes, your premise is true', but 1 guy said 'no, I believe I could look past that'. Is he a liar, naive, a jerk, stupid? Or is he the ONE guy who actually can get over it?

Like anyone would be really honest?

Your statments make it seem as if you know what is possible for another person to feel without asking them. I don't necessarily believe your statement is more rational. I believe you've rationalized your point of view because this protects you from being hurt and helps to keep your world view (or maybe romantic view) simple (I'm not a psychologist or psychiarist). Probably nothing wrong with that as long as you find support for that view.

Hurt by who? A John?

If my approach to my work involves no emotional attachments, how does this mean I am trying to avoid being hurt?

We are not discussing a personal relationship here. This is WORK!

Do you tell your lawyer he is trying to avoid being hurt because he doesnt believe he could have a romantic relationship with his clients???

Kimmie

10-20-2002, 04:34 PM

buddyyy, what can I say, you brought up some great points, thats why I did not even bother to quote you.

I suppose my questions have no real answers. Maybe I am trying to figure out why I make certain men who were clients, non clients when a friendship develops.

Maybe I am trying to figure out if I did fall for a client if he would ever respect me and if I would ever respect him, despite how we met.

Maybe I just need to stop asking so many questions..

Johns might be more understanding and excepting of you, even though you suck dick for a living, however I dont think they could respect you as much as a man who doesnt know about your profession.

Its a tough situation, with no real, clear answers.

All I know is I treat clients differently then I treat my friends who were once clients..

Not worse, not better....just different..

Dr. Strangelove

10-20-2002, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie
Johns might be more understanding and excepting of you, even though you suck dick for a living, however I dont think they could respect you as much as a man who doesnt know about your profession.

Kimmie, I guess the question is who you would rather take a chance with,

a guy who knows what you do for a living because that's how he meet you and is OK with it

or

falling for a guy who doesn't know and be forever worrying what will happen if and when he does find out.

akshun

10-20-2002, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie

Like anyone would be really honest?

[/B]

From my point of view, that is the problem right there.

For what its worth, I am George W Bush

akshun

10-20-2002, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie

Hurt by who? A John?

If my approach to my work involves no emotional attachments, how does this mean I am trying to avoid being hurt?

We are not discussing a personal relationship here. This is WORK!

Do you tell your lawyer he is trying to avoid being hurt because he doesnt believe he could have a romantic relationship with his clients??? [/B]

A husband does not turn to his wife and tell her "hey hun, I'm feeling really romatic tonight. Why don't we draft a legal brief together while we imagine we have tort reform". Nahh, that doesn't make any sense.

I can imagine a situation where one spouse may engage in a form of intercourse with thier SO to show that they appreciate them.

Thorn

10-20-2002, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie

I have become friends with a few of my clients. One I see off the clock. I like them, but I dont think there could ever be love involved. Mostly because of how we met each other.

...

Respect is a very big thing to me.

I truly feel that, on some level, there is lack of respect between johns and hookers. And even if they started to see each other and no money were involved, it would not change.

I think friends, loving and respectful friends, is possible. At least as I see it. That might be because I base my reactions to people on how they treat me, and not particularly on how they deal with others.

If I found basis to like and respect someone within a financial arrangement I had with them that would be so whether that financial arrangement was their paying me for my consulting or my paying them for their services. The fact that the service in question might be sexual doesn't enter into the equation until TRUST becomes a dominant factor.

Now there, where the feelings are not just caring, or even loving, but desirious of mutual long term romantic intimacy, you have two people entering into this [one assumes a mutuality here] who know that each has been unable to maintain sexual monogamy. Whether that be for profit, or pleasure, or both.

Now, I can see myself in an open relationship where my partner has latitude to see other people sexually [as do I]. Though my preference would be to have a partner who plays WITH me then WITHOUT me. However, I see sexual profitering to be a dangerous business. One that is fraught with risks. I don't know if I would care to have a love of mine assuming such risks. I could allow for it in a friend, even a casual lover, as my right to stick my nose in her business is highly limited. Especially if I knew such activity was taking place BEFORE my involvement. Still, if the relationship was a loving, romantic, commited relationship I would ask her to consider an open relationship devoid of pay for play activity for her safety and my own. [Not to suggest that open relationships where sex is being shared with others is not without risk. I am just aware of ways to do so that limit those risks significantly. Such as screened groups of liked minded individuals playing within their own closed ranks]

buddyyy

10-20-2002, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie
I suppose my questions have no real answers. Maybe I am trying to figure out why I make certain men who were clients, non clients when a friendship develops.

I can't imagine you don't. It would be strange if you didn't. Clients are clients, friends and friends, lovers are lovers. Each relationship is different. But I don't think that sometimes one relationship can't develop into a different one.

Originally posted by Kimmie
Maybe I am trying to figure out if I did fall for a client if he would ever respect me and if I would ever respect him, despite how we met.

Perhaps the issue that needs to be examined is "falling for" a client. While in some cases there can be a strong initial attraction between two people, that initial attraction does not ensure that the relationship evolves into a loving committed one.

My experience is that strong close relationships take time, regardless of the strength of the initial attraction, and regardless of the background or professions of the people. The trust, openness, mutual dependence which form the basis of a loving relationship develop based on the experiences that the individuals have with each other over time. In certain cases the fact that you are, or have been a provider, will be something that does become a barrier. In the same way that the fact that I see providers, or have seen providers would be a barrier to some women developing a relationship with me. In some cases it won't.

I don't think it can be known in advance. Many people are in relationships with people who have characteristics or backgrounds that they would not have expected in the person they imagined they wanted to be with. In fact many people are in relationships with people that have characteristics or backgrounds that they, if they had thought about it they would have thought would have been totally inconsistent with the type of person they thought they would be happy with. But they are in the relationship and it is working. I think the reason for this is that in many cases all of the other things which the person is and offers more than offset that one particular characteristic.

So while there are risks associated with choosing to derive happiness from things you do not control, the risks and manageable as long as you maintain a realistic perspective on the relationship and allow its importance to you to grow as your experience with and trust in the other person grows. Don’t fall in love – grow in love.

Originally posted by Kimmie
Maybe I just need to stop asking so many questions..

Johns might be more understanding and excepting of you, even though you suck dick for a living, however I don’t think they could respect you as much as a man who doesn’t know about your profession.

Its a tough situation, with no real, clear answers.

All I know is I treat clients differently then I treat my friends who were once clients..

Not worse, not better....just different..

I don’t think it is something you should stop thinking about. A lot of what is going to be required is for you to first become aware and consciously understand what’s behind the feelings and beliefs that you have. So much of what we think, believe, and feel is not based what we really think, believe and know but rather is based on all that we have been “fed” by our parents, our friends, and our culture. When that “created by others” self has different feelings than our self, problems are sure to follow.

You obviously are conflicted about what you do. You would only doubt whether someone could respect you based on what they do, or whether you could respect someone who goes to providers, if you did not have concerns about the respectability or correctness of what you do. And yet you choose to do it. I am sure that there are a number of things that you don’t think are right, and therefore you have chosen not to do them. But for some reason in this case you do. So who is choosing to have you do something that you don’t feel comfortable with? I think its you. The reak question is are you making yourself do something that you really think is wrong, and if that is the case why? Or are you making yourself think that something that you do is wrong, and if that is the case why?

Personally I think our culture has a lot of confusion, hypocritical beliefs, and dysfunctional attitudes about sex. I am glad that those beliefs and believe its and pressure not with standing, some women choose to offer the opportunity for pleasurable, intimate experiences which otherwise would not be available to me. And I’m very glad that those experiences are available in the context of a mutually acceptable self-contained transaction that enables me to have that experience without all of the problems that might be associated with seeking those kind of experiences outside of an explicit financial context. Also personally, the extent to which I respect someone does not have anything to do with whether they are a provider or not.

But what I think is not important for you. What you may need to do is decide what you really think and then makes choices that are consistent with those understandings.

Kimmie

10-20-2002, 08:07 PM

Geez I dont know where to begin. I think Thorn is saying he agrees with me.

buddyyy, I assure you I am not conflicted about what I do. I love my work and enjoy being on my knees.

Actually, I was doing quite well until Dr Love and akshun started to challenge me about how I think and feel about clients.

I am quite happy with the way I approach my work and my relationships in my work. It works for me.

Dr Love is a romantic...akshun is a realist, and I think I fall somewhere in between.

I am sure that what dr love, classyblonde, Greekgirl, ozzy, psychosis, and the rest have or had was or is very real to them. I just dont think that it could be as "real" as a relationship had outside of this profession.

once again.. just my opinion..

buddyyy

10-20-2002, 08:24 PM

Well now that we have all that resolved when are you coming in NJ?

You know that Dee lives nearby.

Kimmie

10-20-2002, 08:32 PM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by paulus

Now I am at it, it is also incomprehensible for the same reason when providers mail out detailed lists of what times are taken and when they have "openings" (hopefully they always have openings). Are we as clients supposed to be motivated to fill the last one of the openings? "Yeah man, I just love to be squeezed in between the first three of the day and the last two to complete her target of half a dozen". Is that the way guys think?

Paulus
Stalingrad - Mon Amour
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Caitlin of New York

Paulus,

You assume that all she does with her time is service clients. For some reason, clients seem to forget that we do other things besides have sex all the time. If it still bothers you, don't ask when she is available.

Caitlin

Paulus, how can you not expect us to have a schedule?

It might sound impersonal, but what else do you suggest we do? How do you want appointments made?

When I get a call for my incalls I am asked what times I have available.

Isn't the purpose of your call, to make an appointment, to find out when we are available?

Are you trying to say she has to be available for you when you want and not at her conveinence?

Kimmie

10-20-2002, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by buddyyy
Well now that we have all that resolved when are you coming in NJ?

You know that Dee lives nearby.

I hate NJ.. I would rather poke my eyes out then go to NJ..

no offense jersey people..

NY is sooooooo much better.. I think you should cum to NY :)

rascal211

10-20-2002, 08:48 PM

This question is one of those types you would have seen in a college psych course. The answers are boundless and the right answer of course depends on who is the grader of the exam. There is no "right" answer b/c depending on how you were raised or what culture you came from, this "chance" opportunity could never happen or would be too sickening for some people to contemplate. Of course if you are one of those open minded types, does it matter what the person did in the past dictate what you will think in the future?

I find it a bit amusing for those "married" hobbyists who go on their merry way in pursuing this activity thinking that they will never get caught or slip up someday. Why should did? They have it all figured out b/c no way can things go wrong for them. Isn't that the truth?

For the ladies, I would find it interesting to discover that a majority in their teens when they started feeling changes in there bodies suddenly decide that they wanted to enter the "oldest" profession in the world! It was a no brainer. Right? For perhaps a few, this activity is more than a job, it is an adventure of a life time. But for most others, it is a means that hopefully will get them to somewhere else.

What's the point? Anything can happen. Whether it is fate, the stars were in the correct alignment, it was a relationship that was made in heaven, etc. What is the divorce rate in the U.S.? Around 50%. Those are pretty heavy odds for relationships that were based on ideal conditions that came crashing to earth. So what are the odds that a client or provider will fall for each other? I really don't care b/c if it does happen, I wouldn't doubt there would be a crowd of disbelievers. It is just how most people are. I'm not naive, but perhaps a little more open to the possibilities.

betty_snj

10-20-2002, 08:55 PM

well...after my ex-hubby, I never fell for any clients again.
I've made few friends from former clients but not lovers, because I'm NOT looking for a relationship with anything but a cock for couple hours.
But, sometimes I feel like "adopting" a client.
This saturday I've met an UG guy (hello...you know I'm talking about YOU!) and he was one of the most adorable things I ever had escorting.
He's 30 something but don't look a day older than 18. His skin was soooo soft, his lips soooo sweet and he was simply delicious in all aspects.
I had a female friend with me, so he got a double treat, and we just could not take our hands off his body and I kept saying..."can I adopt you?"

billyS

10-20-2002, 10:25 PM

Kimmie,
I tried reading most of this thread but my eyes hurt.
MHO:
There are two seperate topics here
1) Can a hooker fall for a client?
Of course she can. If she meets someone who is her "type" (for you a burly guy with a gotee) who meets her physical and personality ideals. Just because he is a client, doesn't mean a hooker shuts off that little impluse in her head that tells her when she likes someone.
2) Can it work?
It seems to me that you feel it can't because you feel the guy will never respect her because of the way they met. It also seems to me that respect is very very important to you. Well all guys are different and if the guy a hooker fell for realy did respect the hooker then it would be up to him to convince her that he did. It might be impossible. Like trying to convince someone that they are so pretty that a few extra pounds aren't even noticed.
Bottom fucking line:
Yes to the original question. We are all human and we have no control over who we 'fall' for.

buddyyy

10-20-2002, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie

II think you should cum to NY :)

NY - I can do NY - as long as I don't have to go to LI or travel on the LIE

BigMadM

10-21-2002, 05:03 AM

a little truth...yes.....providers fall for old fucking men.
been there, done that.....not comfortable ....
Now ive corrected the situation......and yes..it cost me.....
Now Im sorry because I miss the crazy fucking girl that fucked with my head.(no love involved by me, but she made me feel like a million bucks when she wasnt crying about her personal life.)

akshun

10-21-2002, 07:46 AM

Originally posted by Kimmie
Geez I dont know where to begin. I think Thorn is saying he agrees with me.

buddyyy, I assure you I am not conflicted about what I do. I love my work and enjoy being on my knees.

Actually, I was doing quite well until Dr Love and akshun started to challenge me about how I think and feel about clients.

I am quite happy with the way I approach my work and my relationships in my work. It works for me.

Dr Love is a romantic...akshun is a realist, and I think I fall somewhere in between.

I am sure that what dr love, classyblonde, Greekgirl, ozzy, psychosis, and the rest have or had was or is very real to them. I just dont think that it could be as "real" as a relationship had outside of this profession.

once again.. just my opinion..

Um........I thought I was on the romantic side of the discussion.

By the way, I wasn't challenging you. You asked a question open to all and I answeerd along with others, so no harm no foul. We're just learning more about how others think.

Kimmie

10-21-2002, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by billyS
Kimmie,
1) Can a hooker fall for a client?
Of course she can. If she meets someone who is her "type" (for you a burly guy with a gotee)

I dont think that just having a goatee is going to make me fall for someone. There would have to be a lot more to him then that. I have been known to fall for average height, thin guys too. Its how they treat you that is important, not how they look.

Like trying to convince someone that they are so pretty that a few extra pounds aren't even noticed.

Gee wonder who you meant with THAT comment!

Bottom fucking line:
Yes to the original question. We are all human and we have no control over who we 'fall' for.

I guess that is the bottom line. But I disagree, I think we do have control over who we fall for.

Kimmie

10-21-2002, 08:06 AM

Originally posted by akshun

Um........I thought I was on the romantic side of the discussion.

By the way, I wasn't challenging you. You asked a question open to all and I answeerd along with others, so no harm no foul. We're just learning more about how others think.

Well I could not call Dr Love the realist!
:rolleyes:

I did ask a question, and I wanted responses, and I appreciate your input. I was simply saying that I felt even more compelled to defend my views once challenged by you and Dr Love, and therefore it might have made me sound like I was not happy with my choices.

I am quite happy with my job and my choice to not fall for a man who is a paying client!

akshun

10-21-2002, 08:29 AM

Also I think BillyS was quite right. If by fall, he meant who we are attracted to, desire, want to be with, etc. sometimes that stuff happens and we can't control it (and I mean beyond just lust).

But you don't have to enter into a relationship with that person just because you develop feelings for them. i think that is where we have control. We can avoid that person and like many things in life those feelings will fade if they are not reinforced.

justlooking

10-21-2002, 10:36 AM

Paulus's post toward the beginning of this thread was interesting.

If he was talking about marketing, I agree with him. In their marketing, I think prostitutes should avoid as much as possible conveying the impression that it's just a business (even though, of course, that's just what it is).

But it's possible to read that post as complaining about the way prostitutes view their work. If so -- and I'm not saying that's what Paulus meant, only that it's possible to read it that way -- I think it's incredibly nervy for a john to tell prostitutes that they put too much emotional distance between themselves and their sex work.

(Too clarify, I hate it when I can tell it's distanced. But if I can't tell, I don't care. No, let me change that: I do care. Because the experiences I've had where the sex worker didn't keep some emotional distance from her sex work were just too fucking scary, or unpleasant in other ways, for me to want to repeat.)

vegasjim

10-21-2002, 11:09 AM

Wow Kimmie I could not disagree with your thoughts on this any more. I have always believed that a client and a provider can fall in love and I have seen it happen. I also can't believe that you think a client cannot respect a provider. Do you also believe a provider can never respect a client. I will say I don't think you can fall in love without being friends first. Even thought I have never fallen for a provider yet I do really believe it could happen. I just can not understand your thoughts on respecting each other. We will talk about this at dinner before the Ana show. Great thread.

RufusMoses

10-21-2002, 11:21 AM

So JL wants a provider that is distanced, but doesn't seem like it unless you look very closely under a microscope, and then you can just barely detect it...

Anything calibrated to that fine a tolerance is bound to be expensive!

justme

10-21-2002, 11:21 AM

Is it possible for a prostitute to develop a romantic attraction to a client?

Of course.

In order for that to happen, however, she would have to let her emotional barrier down and not distance herself from her encounter. For a 'seasoned' providor, I think this is extremely unlikely as the mask of a session is well practiced and perfected. Moreover, I think it would be a fairly bad idea for a prostitute to persue her profession without having such an emotional barrier. Just ask Charity Hope Valentine.

justlooking

10-21-2002, 11:21 AM

I'm sure I've said this about a million times already, but OF COURSE it's possible for prostitutes and johns to fall in love with each other. I mean, almost ANYTHING is possible.

But that said, I think it's much healthier for everyone to pretend it isn't possible. Because relations between prostitutes and johns are so fraught with opportunities for misunderstood signals and mutual imcomprehension that it's enormously more likely that one side is misconstruing than it is that real mutual relationship has arisen.

Just go through the threads on this board over the years. You'll see johns who thought they were in love with prostitutes who reciprocated their feelings -- but they were wrong. Those guys often get hurt, emotionally and financially. You'll also see johns who think they're going to have a good time by leading a prostitute on into a "more than professional" relationship -- but then find that they've had someone very problematical fall in love with them. That also can be emotionally and financially draining. (I'm focussing on guys' posts, first because I can emphasize with them more, but second, and mainly, because the johns have been more forthcoming on this subject than the prostitutes have. Probably because the prostitutes have a much more realistic view of what's going on and so don't fall into these problems as much.)

So I support Kimmie's position, not as a realistic description of the world as it exists, but as a necessary defense mechanism for people on both sides of the transaction.

justme

10-21-2002, 11:23 AM

(My post above should be seen as a less developed version of JL's superior post)

justme

10-21-2002, 11:24 AM

I emphatically agree with the assertion that the 'healthiest' way to pursue this hobby is with tremendous emotional distance created by artificial barriers.

Slinky Bender

10-21-2002, 11:35 AM

You go to Sears and wander by the photography center with your kid, and the photogapher whispers "You know, we're not supposed to comment on the kid's looks, but that's the most beautiful baby I have ever seen". You smile, and think "What the heck", and get a few portraits snapped.

A few weeks later, you are visiting your cousin in Grand Rapids, and one the way home from the movies, they need to stop at Sears to get a new Weed Wacker. You wander around waiting for them, and you hear from the photography center "You know, we're not supposed to comment on the kid's looks, but that's the most beautiful baby I have ever seen". You smile and move on.

At the family dinner a few weeks later, you go to the bathroom and the door is closed, but you hear from inside "You know, we're not supposed to comment on the kid's looks, but that's the most beautiful baby I have ever seen". The door opens, and out steps your nephew. You ask him "Who were you talking to ?" and he responds "Oh, I just got a new job at Sears".

Does this mean that the photographers at Sears never see beautiful babies ? No. But it also means .... well, you know.

akshun

10-21-2002, 11:51 AM

I'm truly naive.

Am I the only one who thinks its possible to live in a world where EVERYONE isn't a liar, malcontentm etc?

So what if the photg comes up to you and says your baby is beautiful. She's making a sales pitch and chose her adjectives carefully. I don't care about that, 'cause I don't know her and her opinion doesn't matter that much to me

The difference for me is if the photog was someone who became close to me and still felt the need to lie about my baby's looks. Then I care.

justme

10-21-2002, 11:56 AM

I don't think SB was making a post about 'absolutes'. I think he was making a post about probabilities.

What's so hard about being skeptical about the veracity of a person that you pay to lie to you.

Kimmie

10-21-2002, 11:58 AM

Finally!!! Some people who see my side of this issue.

WTF were you? I was feeling alone!!!

akshun

10-21-2002, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by justme
I don't think SB was making a post about 'absolutes'. I think he was making a post about probabilities.

What's so hard about being skeptical about the veracity of a person that you pay to lie to you.

Not paying them to lie to me. Paying them to satisfy my sexual appetite.

What are your providers lying to you about?

justme

10-21-2002, 12:03 PM

About how into fucking you they really are.

justme

10-21-2002, 12:04 PM

Kimmie - I'm not sure we're exactly on your side.

akshun

10-21-2002, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by justme
About how into fucking you they really are.

Absolutley not needed to have a good time. If she starts screaming my name and pulling the covers off the bed, etc I hopes of convincing me shes the best, she'll never see me or my money again.

Janitors don't have to be INTO their work to do a good job, do they?

justme

10-21-2002, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by justme
About how into fucking you they really are.

And really this is where the value is added (imho).

Of course, there's people whose approach to commercial sex is much more oriented to quicky sessions in which the providor does basically just lie there, but somehow I don't think that you're such a person.

justme

10-21-2002, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by akshun
Absolutley not needed to have a good time. If she starts screaming my name and pulling the covers off the bed, etc I hopes of convincing me shes the best, she'll never see me or my money again.

Janitors don't have to be INTO their work to do a good job, do they?

Look, there's a difference between

a) acting like she think that you're the king of the fucking universe

and

b) not letting on as to exactly how incredibly nauseated, or at best bored, she is with her encounter with you.

Kimmie

10-21-2002, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by justme
Kimmie - I'm not sure we're exactly on your side.

Well fuck me.. Someone has to be..

vegasjim

10-21-2002, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie

Well fuck me.. Someone has to be..

Not me. You don't believe I can respect you. WHY! WHY! Because you are a provider. That Is really bull.

justlooking

10-21-2002, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by akshun
Absolutley not needed to have a good time. . . . .

Janitors don't have to be INTO their work to do a good job, do they?

If you really think that, I'll bet you're having a hard time even seeing what the issue is in this thread. (I don't mean that as an insult, BTW.)

akshun

10-21-2002, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by justlooking

If you really think that, I'll bet you're having a hard time even seeing what the issue is in this thread. (I don't mean as an insult, BTW.)

You may be right. I'm going to take some time and see if I can come up with a (short) synopsis of the thread.

Kimmie

10-21-2002, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by vegasjim

Not me. You don't believe I can respect you. WHY! WHY! Because you are a provider. That Is really bull.

Jim, no offense, but you met me once!!

You might like me, but respect me? You dont even know me!!

Respect seems to be another word thrown around like the word love.

vegasjim

10-21-2002, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie

Jim, no offense, but you met me once!!

You might like me, but respect me? You dont even know me!!

Respect seems to be another word thrown around like the word love.

I don't throw those words around easy. You are right I really don't know you so to say I respect you or not I really can't say. But if and when I do get to know you and weather I respect you or not has nothing to do with you being a provider. I just really cannot understand you on this.

vegasjim

10-21-2002, 12:49 PM

Kimmie

10-21-2002, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by vegasjim

I just really cannot understand you on this.

I am sorry Jim, you know I adore you. Sweetest man alive. Not many people understand me. So please dont try!!I have a question for you..

Would you ever marry a hooker, or bring her around to meet your family? Honestly..

occasionalhobbyist

10-21-2002, 12:56 PM

1) Anything's possible.

2) Some things are highly improbable, based on the nature of marketing and transactions.

3) Some things are very bad ideas, for a whole host of reasons.

4) Lack of respect need not be one of those reasons.

Kimmie, the thing is, while you say we use the word REAL LOVE too loosely (and I don't necessarily disagree) I think you make too big a deal of the word SEX. Sex is nice, it's cool, I like it lots, obviously--but it's not the be all, end all of a relationship. There are lots of other things there that matter. So a woman fucks for a living. So what? Is she a workaholic about it? Is it her profession AND her hobby? Does she hate men? Those questions have a lot more to do with whether or not a relationship would work than the mere fact of her sucking cock for a living.

Love is truth, and I can find truth in any relationship where there's mutual respect and a tingle of excitement. Not with the majority of pro's I've seen, who are considerably more interested in parting me from my money. (which is fine, of course, LOVE is not what I'm looking for.)

But a few have lit my pilot light in other ways beyond the usual coffee warm-up. Never acted on it. Can't. Probably never will.

And certainly not at Sears.

vegasjim

10-21-2002, 12:57 PM

occasionalhobbyist

10-21-2002, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie

I am sorry Jim, you know I adore you. Sweetest man alive. Not many people understand me. So please dont try!!I have a question for you..

Would you ever marry a hooker, or bring her around to meet your family? Honestly..

Tough question. I'd say yes to the first half, but probably no to the second half. At least, I don't think I'd introduce her as a hooker.

But then, I'm not sure I'd bring an accountant around to meet my family--they're fucking crazy!

vegasjim

10-21-2002, 12:59 PM

Kimmie Now I have a question for you. Since you believe a client can't respect a provider do you also believe a provider can't respect a Client??

vegasjim

10-21-2002, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by occasionalhobbyist

Tough question. I'd say yes to the first half, but probably no to the second half. At least, I don't think I'd introduce her as a hooker.

But then, I'm not sure I'd bring an accountant around to meet my family--they're fucking crazy!

If she wanted to be introduced as a provider I would not have a problem with it. My family would not either.

Kimmie

10-21-2002, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by occasionalhobbyist

Kimmie, the thing is, while you say we use the word REAL LOVE too loosely (and I don't necessarily disagree) I think you make too big a deal of the word SEX. Sex is nice, it's cool, I like it lots, obviously--but it's not the be all, end all of a relationship. There are lots of other things there that matter. So a woman fucks for a living. So what? Is she a workaholic about it?

Sex is a big deal. I am addicted to it!! Are you kidding me?

Maybe I like it too much, therefore I view a lot of things on a sexual level.

Sex is a beautiful thang.

Kimmie

10-21-2002, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by vegasjim
Kimmie Now I have a question for you. Since you believe a client can't respect a provider do you also believe a provider can't respect a Client??

Yes.

justlooking

10-21-2002, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by vegasjim
If she wanted to be introduced as a provider I would not have a problem with it. My family would not either.

If that's true about your family, I suppose it's very nice that they're so socially progressive. But I hope you realize how very far out of the mainstream that puts you. And I hope you take that into consideration when you contribute to discussions like this. I think it's very unfair to give prostitutes the impression that their profession wouldn't be very shocking as far as most families are concerned.

(BORING META-NOTE: One thing that I always feel gives whoreboard discussions an air of unreality is how much everybody -- especially the johns -- bend over backwards to deny that prostitution is this totally disreputable, socially-rejected thing that subjects everybody who participates in it to tremendous obloquy. It's all very well to pretend otherwise for purposes of our little world. But when people are trying to talk about the way things play out in the real world, as Kimmie is here, it leads to a lot of unrealistic nonsense.)

justlooking

10-21-2002, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie
Yes.

You da man.

vegasjim

10-21-2002, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie

Yes.

Wow I am speechless. You mean because someone pays for sex you can’t respect him. Nothing else he does in his life matters. I just could not disagree with you more on this. To me there is much more in life than sex and respect has nothing to do with it. Let me ask you this if someone in your life that you do respect and now you all of a sudden find out he saw a provider. Would you not respect him anymore. WHY! I really don’t understand.

vegasjim

10-21-2002, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by justlooking

If that's true about your family, I suppose it's very nice that they're so socially progressive. But I hope you realize how very far out of the mainstream that puts you. And I hope you take that into consideration when you contribute to discussions like this. I think it's very unfair to give prostitutes the impression that their profession wouldn't be very shocking as far as most families are concerned.

(BORING META-NOTE: One thing that I always feel gives whoreboard discussions an air of unreality is how much everybody -- especially the johns -- bend over backwards to deny that prostitution is this totally disreputable, socially-rejected thing that subjects everybody who participates in it to tremendous obloquy. It's all very well to pretend otherwise for purposes of our little world. But when people are trying to talk about the way things play out in the real world, as Kimmie is here, it leads to a lot of unrealistic nonsense.)

It is true about my family and yes they would be shocked but I also know they would still love me and accept whoever I wanted to spend my life with.

justlooking

10-21-2002, 01:24 PM

(FOLLOW-UP TO BORING META-NOTE: Or maybe it's just that a lot of the johns have been so heavily into commercial sex for so long that they've forgotten how completely disreputable, etc., it is.)

Kimmie

10-21-2002, 01:24 PM

Jim you didnt ask ME if I respect them.

You asked if I think providers dont respect clients.

Though I cant speak FOR them, I can say I think there are some who do not respect their clients!

I like my clients, but I dont know them well enough to respect them ( the ones I have seen once or twice)

I do respect the ones I see on a regular basis. Because I have gotten to know them on a whole other level.

Keep in mind Jim. I have made men who were clients, non clients because I respected them so much.

occasionalhobbyist

10-21-2002, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie

Yes.

Wow.

Sex is a beautiful thang, that's true. In fact... I think I have to go now...

But before I do, JL I know what you're saying. Perhaps I'm even guilty of it. It's true that prostitution has a social stigma, it ain't 'normal', and I am not 'normal' either. But I do think there are a wide range of types of people in it. So, let me be more explicit.

If the whore in question is doing it to get a fix, or because she was abused, or because she hates men, or because she hates herself--and I've known pro's in each of those categories--then, no. Love ain't gonna happen. If it did, it would be a big fucking mistake and blow up like an H-bomb, leaving 10 square miles of devastation and ongoing years of pain.

If the guy is into it for similar, self-immolating reasons, another bad, bad, bad situation.

However, I have met a few women in this profession who have their heads on straight and like their jobs. Many of them on this board. Could I fall in love with them? Yes. Will I? No. But for entirely different reasons than the ones outlined by Kimmie.

greekgirlinnj

10-21-2002, 01:28 PM

I show respect for anyone until they show me different

as far as men that are clients yes i believe providers can and do respect them..maybe not all providers but some yes

can we fall for them hell yessssssssssssssssssssss will i do it again fuckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk no

occasionalhobbyist

10-21-2002, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by greekgirlinnj
I show respect for anyone until they show me different

as far as men that are clients yes i believe providers can and do respect them..maybe not all providers but some yes

can we fall for them hell yessssssssssssssssssssss will i do it again fuckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk no

I'll drink to that!

Daniel_NYC

10-21-2002, 01:38 PM

Showering a woman with gifts, planning great dates, offering a sympathetic ear, telling her what she wants to hear, all to get a taste of her pussy is not disreputable?

I am guilty of the above!

When I was actively single I did whatever I had to do to get in a womans pants!

I had no intention of marrying her, she wasn't the type you bring home to the family etc....

But I sooooo wanted a piece of it.

They knew it too, and made me pay for it, maybe not in cash, but I did pay.

They were some of the most manipulative women I have ever met. I was no less manipulative.

greekgirlinnj

10-21-2002, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by occasionalhobbyist

I'll drink to that!

well everytime i toast with anyone i toast and say "heres to men with big dicks or amazing tongues" exactly like that so im not sure if u wanna drink to that but i will

Slinky Bender

10-21-2002, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by akshun
Janitors don't have to be INTO their work to do a good job, do they?

I'm sure you've heard the expression "luck always beats skill". Well, so does "being into it". When hiring any sort of "contractor" to do a piece of work, I've found that if you've got one who has less skill, but wants to do the job, they always do a better job than the one with the higher skill level, but isn't "into" this particular piece of work.

True for plumbers, tile guys, flooring guys.... attorneys, accountants..... auto repairmen, teachers ...... advertising, commercial artists..... dentists, chefs.......

justlooking

10-21-2002, 01:43 PM

When I say "disreputable", I don't mean "wrong" or "improper". I mean exactly what that word means: destructive of your reputation.

The conduct you describe may not be particularly admirable, but it is completely acceptable -- even expected -- behavior in our society.

Seeing prostitutes, or being one, is not.

Do you know that, until recently (for all I know, it's still the case), telling people that a woman who isn't one is a prostitute is libel per se? Meaning that the law deems it so obvious that such a statement will utterly destroy a woman's reputation that she doesn't even have to prove that she sustained any actual damages to recover for it?

vegasjim

10-21-2002, 01:45 PM

Kimmie I still do not really understand what you mean. Maybe next time I see you we can talk. I will say to me respect & love are strong words and to me weather someone is either a providver or client has nothing to due with if I could ever respect or love them. I do know 2 providers right now who I do know well enough that I can say I do respect them. They are both from Vegas and now retired but I respected them when they were working and I still respect them now.

occasionalhobbyist

10-21-2002, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by greekgirlinnj

well everytime i toast with anyone i toast and say "heres to men with big dicks or amazing tongues" exactly like that so im not sure if u wanna drink to that but i will

Ummm, well, maybe if I just take it as a compliment?

occasionalhobbyist

10-21-2002, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by justlooking

Do you know that, until recently (for all I know, it's still the case), telling people that a woman who isn't one is a prostitute is libel per se? Meaning that the law deems it so obvious that such a statement will utterly destroy a woman's reputation that she doesn't even have to prove that she sustained any actual damages to recover for it?

Unless she's famous...

Kimmie

10-21-2002, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by greekgirlinnj

can we fall for them hell yessssssssssssssssssssss will i do it again fuckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk no

And this lady and gentlemen is why Providers should not fall for Clients!!!!

Case closed!

vegasjim

10-21-2002, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie

And this lady and gentlemen is why Providers should not fall for Clients!!!!

Case closed!

So because one relationship doesn't work it is impossible for any to work. Sorry I don't buy it at all. I know clients that married providers and are happy. You are painting to wide a brush on everything.

Kimmie

10-21-2002, 02:25 PM

So because a few relationships work does that mean they ALL will?

I know that it can work, but I dont think it can work as well as a relationship that began outside of the profession.

vegasjim

10-21-2002, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie
So because a few relationships work does that mean they ALL will?

I know that it can work, but I dont think it can work as well as a relationship that began outside of the profession.

Never said they all will. Relationships are complicated and people can become unhappy or disenchanted for many reasons but to me the profession has nothing to do with it. That is where I think we disagree.

nycpat212

10-21-2002, 02:34 PM

I can see it happening. Remote but maybe.

justlooking

10-21-2002, 02:45 PM

I can see it happening that a high school student would get bitten by a radioactive (oops . . . I forgot that now it's genetically-altered) spider and develop spider-like superpowers. Remote but maybe.

justlooking

10-21-2002, 02:48 PM

I can see it happening that an alien rocketed to earth as an infant as the last survivor of an exploding planet would look just like a human but demonstrate super powers which he would use to fight crime and stand up for truth, justice, and the American way. Remote but maybe.

justlooking

10-21-2002, 02:49 PM

I can see it happening that, after mankind has destroyed itself in some unspecified holocaust, highly-evolved apes will replace man as the dominant species on the planet and will develop a human-like civilization. Remote but maybe.

justlooking

10-21-2002, 02:53 PM

I can see it happening that a gypsy would accidentally kill her son instead of the son of a nobleman against whom she has sworn revenge so then she keeps the nobleman's son and raises it as her own and he then becomes involved in a love triangle with the nobleman's other son (his brother, but neither of them knows it) and then the nobleman's known son kills the guy he thinks is the gypsy's son but is really his own brother and so the gypsy gets her revenge after all. Remote but maybe.

Kimmie

10-21-2002, 04:38 PM

Jl are you on fing crack?

justme

10-21-2002, 05:14 PM

I think JL read pat's post above as:

I think that a providor could fall for a client because it happened in Pretty Woman.

This is a statement that deserves some sarcastic and mean spirited response (maybe even four of them).

Of course, I took the same post to mean:

I think that these situations that we've been talking about in which a prostitute falls for a client, for shorthand I'll simply refer to the similar situation in Pretty Woman, are possible.

Slinky Bender

10-21-2002, 05:22 PM

I think what JL meant was that there's a theory of "Atomic Tunnelling" ( I forget what the real theory is called ) which states that due to the nature of atomic particles, it's theoretically possible that you will put your hand down on the table, and your hand's atoms will meld with the table's atoms and you will become part of the table. But it doesn't mean people should stop putting their hands down on tables because they are worried that they will meld with them. ( or worse, make life plans based on putting their hands down on some table and melding with it ).

Kimmie

10-21-2002, 05:29 PM

So if jl meant all those things.. why didnt jl just say them?

This topic is frustrating me and stressing me. No one seems to understand where I am coming from.

I am starting to feel alone in this world. As if my way of thinking is not only unpopular, but somehow........ wrong!

RufusMoses

10-21-2002, 05:31 PM

I'll have a tuna meld please!

justme

10-21-2002, 05:36 PM

Kimmie -

I don't think your way of thinking (prostitutes should have emotional distance from their clients) is wrong. I think it is probably the best possible way to approach your profession.

I think JL would agree.

You know, it's interesting to me that you previously even had greater emotional barriers (prostitutes can not be friends with their clients), but that now you seem to be violating that principal. What's really interesting is that you've been violating it only after you started hanging out on PMB's.

Slinky Bender

10-21-2002, 05:40 PM

JM,

Of course, there's 2 possibilites with that: one, that she's getting "drawn to the dark side"; the other, that like many things, the more experienced you get, the more you can "nuance" stuff and not have to have big, immoveable barriers. Like in The Professional ( Leon ) where he teaches Matilda that the more experience you get, the closer you get to the client; so you start off with the sniper's rifle, and gradually graduate to the knife.

Kimmie

10-21-2002, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by justme
Kimmie -

I don't think your way of thinking (prostitutes should have emotional distance from their clients) is wrong. I think it is probably the best possible way to approach your profession.

I think JL would agree.

You know, it's interesting to me that you previously even had greater emotional barriers (prostitutes can not be friends with their clients), but that now you seem to be violating that principal. What's really interesting is that you've been violating it only after you started hanging out on PMB's.

JM you are correct. I have said it all along UG is EVIL..UG is EVIL!

I was such a good girl until I came here. I never even said the words "fuck" or "dick." Check my old posts. I **** them out!!
I was sweet!

If I dont stop posting here ASAP, I will be announcing my marriage to Ozzy! :eek:

Ozzy

10-21-2002, 06:28 PM

and i'm gonna paint a target on my head and move to DC.

Kimmie

10-21-2002, 06:38 PM

Damn ozzy, I cant be that bad looking....

Can I?

occasionalhobbyist

10-21-2002, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by slinkybender
I think what JL meant was that there's a theory of "Atomic Tunnelling" ( I forget what the real theory is called ) which states that due to the nature of atomic particles, it's theoretically possible that you will put your hand down on the table, and your hand's atoms will meld with the table's atoms and you will become part of the table.

That's never happened to you?

occasionalhobbyist

10-21-2002, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie
So if jl meant all those things.. why didnt jl just say them?

This topic is frustrating me and stressing me. No one seems to understand where I am coming from.

I am starting to feel alone in this world. As if my way of thinking is not only unpopular, but somehow........ wrong!

Now I'm getting confused.

Isn't JL agreeing with you?

Aren't most of us agreeing with you?

You've been saying this impossible. I think the consensus is, possible but very bad idea. Why does that make you want to marry Oz? I mean, for God's sake woman, don't be so fatalistic!

Kimmie

10-21-2002, 07:12 PM

I am sorry OH, I meant alone amongst the girls.

...and I dont want to marry ozzy, bite your tongue!! I was just showing an example of how bad of an influence UG has on me.

Marrying Ozzy would show I have lost all my marbles.

georgelong

10-21-2002, 07:29 PM

Kimmie (and anyone else),

What if...

You met a gentleman while working, and you got to know each other and started caring for one another.

Then you retire and you and the gentleman continue to be friends (if this is possible for you). Would you two not be able to fall in love as you got to know one another better?

Kimmie

10-21-2002, 07:59 PM

I have many friends who are or were clients, so that isnt a problem.

Friendship and falling in love are two very different things in my eyes.

The questions I raised were about currently working girls, currently hobbying men.

If its something that is in your past, it could work. But I think there will always be that thought in the back of your mind.....

Is he??

Is she???

Without trust, you cant have love.

Can you ever really trust each other if you are both from the same world?

Stecchino

10-21-2002, 08:35 PM

Can you ever really trust each other if you're not?

(how'd i'd do, Slink?)

billyS

10-22-2002, 06:57 AM

Originally posted by Kimmie

Can you ever really trust each other if you are both from the same world?

I think the girl would have more of the trust issues because most of her clients are married and cheating on thier wives. How could they respect these guys? Fuck them? Suck there dicks?, sure why not as long as they have the green and they are clean, but respect them? No. How could a girl fall for a guy who they know for certain is cheating on his wife, and worst, if he posts here, is bragging about all the girls he sees? Maybe a single guy, a lonely sadsack like Demigawd, but then that would be more like a mercy fuck if she every did him for free.

Originally posted by Kimmie

I am starting to feel alone in this world. As if my way of thinking is not only unpopular, but somehow........ wrong!
Don't worry pretty Miss green eyes, they have pills for that now.
J/K

jaz

10-22-2002, 08:17 AM

Kimmie, I agree with you

I use providers for convience! I am very successful in regular mutual cost-free relationships but I use providers to fill voids. (i.e If my girlfriend won't blow me to completion a provider will.)

And truly, I am a gentleman. I do respect the providers that I am with and I try to make them comfortable as I expect them to try and make me comfortable because usually I am a little tense as well (thank god that it does not effect my performance.)

These woman are here for business. And I choose to patranize their business. To me it is like any other business, I expect good service, if it is good then I will be back if it is not then I patranize your competitor. It is that simple.

Their are providers I have seen for years but the attachment to me is mere convience.

Truly how could I have feelings for someone and reccomend to my friend that they go "fuck" this same person who I have feelings for. GET REAL!

justme

10-22-2002, 08:44 AM

(that handle brings back memories)

SB - Well no good researcher would claim a causal correlation without a good model. I just think it's an interesting observation at this point. One test, of course, would be to measure whether her increased comfort rate accelerated abruptly since starting at UG.

justlooking

10-22-2002, 09:12 AM

The reason your professional colleagues aren't backing you up here is that they, unlike you, primarily use this board for promotional purposes. So they could never say that they don't respect johns, or that they can't imagine falling in love with one. It's just not what the customers want to hear.

Kimmie

10-22-2002, 09:25 AM

jseah

10-22-2002, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by Kimmie
oh

and you expected something different????....

god, I have become sooooo cynical.....

Kimmie

10-22-2002, 09:32 AM

Wait I didnt say I dont respect johns.

I said I cant respect someone I dont know. Seeing a man once or twice doesnt really allow much time to get to know someone enough to respect them.

For example. I wont say his name, but there is a member here who I did not like at all, based on his board personalilty.

I met him not too long ago and I still wasnt too crazy about him. Then I met him again, just last week, and we had a good time. Great conversation, much more relaxed session. We have talked a few times online in IM's. I like him now. Who knows, if we ever meet again, I might even respect him.

I have john friends, who I no longer can call my johns because they are now my friends. If I had no regard for johns I wouldnt even make them my friends.

Can you believe that I have john friends now? I wish I could find that thread from last year when I said I couldnt even be friends with a john...

ahhh second thought, nevermind. I dont want to re read that..

greekgirlinnj

10-22-2002, 09:40 AM

just looking

some of us did put in our two cents

vegasjim

10-22-2002, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by Kimmie
Jim you didnt ask ME if I respect them.

You asked if I think providers dont respect clients.

Kimmie that is not really what I asked. What I asked was do you also believe a provider can't respect a Client?? I will add either past or present if that makes a difference to you.

justlooking

10-22-2002, 09:59 AM

Even as I was typing that, I thought, "this is really unfair to greekgirl."

Sorry.

Kimmie

10-22-2002, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by vegasjim

Kimmie that is not really what I asked. What I asked was do you also believe a provider can't respect a Client?? I will add either past or present if that makes a difference to you.

Jim, I cant speak for other girls, but I know that if I were to become intimate with a client, and he was still an actively participating client, it might be hard to respect him. As I am sure it would be hard for him to respect me, a working girl.

If we are talking on a personal, non intimate level, then No.

For example...

I have met you once, but we spent two days together ( no Jim didnt hire me, it was at a *** party) Anyway, I got to know you. Talk to you. You were very kind to me. You literally gave me the shirt out of your closet. ( yankee shirt, thanks again btw)
I respect you on some level because you were good to me. I really dont know you. But you treated me well.

I cant say I respect johns in general. Not all johns are alike.

I can only say I respect those who have taken the time to get to know me, visit me on a regular basis, and treated me well.

vegasjim

10-22-2002, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by Kimmie

Jim, I cant speak for other girls, but I know that if I were to become intimate with a client, and he was still an actively participating client, it might be hard to respect him. As I am sure it would be hard for him to respect me, a working girl.

If we are talking on a personal, non intimate level, then No.

For example...

I have met you once, but we spent two days together ( no Jim didnt hire me, it was at a *** party) Anyway, I got to know you. Talk to you. You were very kind to me. You literally gave me the shirt out of your closet. ( yankee shirt, thanks again btw)
I respect you on some level because you were good to me. I really dont know you. But you treated me well.

I cant say I respect johns in general. Not all johns are alike.

I can only say I respect those who have taken the time to get to know me, visit me on a regular basis, and treated me well.

Thanks Kimmie I am beginning to understand your thoughts on this now. That clears up allot.

Kimmie

10-22-2002, 10:14 AM

BUT I would NEVER... could never, love a john!!!

How do you make words bigger?

vegasjim

10-22-2002, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by Kimmie
BUT I would NEVER... could never, love a john!!!

How do you make words bigger?

I can understand you on this. I do not agree but I can understand.

vegasjim

10-22-2002, 10:28 AM

TO MAKE LETTERS BIGGER

use this code replace stars with brackets
*size=4**color=blue**u**b*text*/b**/u**/color**/size*

greekgirlinnj

10-22-2002, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by justlooking
Even as I was typing that, I thought, "this is really unfair to greekgirl."

Sorry.

dude no apology neccessary

h. von bingen

10-22-2002, 12:24 PM

we ALL do u know (come from the same world). trust loyalty love can occur or not in any context . . .

take e.g. a hobbyist (male) gives advice to a hobbyist (female), she takes his advice. afterwards they discuss the provider, but oops, they take an interest in e/o, fall in love, leave their spouses and decide to build a life together. . .

just call me table,
and hs hand,
hvb

btw, i think it's even easier 4 providers and hobbyists to tumble -- more contact, more intimacy. the hard part is 4 people to
overcome their prejudices, but that's always the trick . . .

like god said: it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than 4 a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven . . .

like lady brideshead, teresa marchmain said:
it is very UNUSUAL for a camel to pass through the eye of . . .

pas impossible,
rien rien,
title ix,
hvb

justlooking

10-22-2002, 12:37 PM

I think it's possible that, because you're a woman, your experience of prostitution is such that you don't experience all the constant lying on both sides. I'd bet that in an average session (BUT NOT ONE OF YOURS), maybe the only honest things the prostitute and the john say to each other are "hello" and "goodbye" (and even those have their ambiguities).

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. "Lying" usually has pejorative implications; but not, I think, here.

But it makes me think you might be missing the way the experience is for most of us male johns when you say that to you it's easy to see prostitutes and johns falling in love with other because of the "contact" and "intimacy" they share. As I've repeated so often I should probably be shot for saying it again, what I think is the case is that it's dangerously easy for one or the other to think they're falling in love with each other. Especially in comparison to how infrequently it actually happens ("it" being mutual feelings).

hot4chicks

10-22-2002, 01:31 PM

I'd suggest that it's mostly the subset of PMB posters who engage hookers in these "I love you"-type discussions, who have delusions about hookers "loving" or even caring about them. The mutual synthetic ego-stroking that goes on may be a wonderful marketing ploy, but it really isn't the under-pinning to any serious relationship (except between delusional people.)

h4c, proud to be a walking ATM

justlooking

10-22-2002, 01:33 PM

DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO

justlooking

10-22-2002, 01:37 PM

Another way I'd put it -- and I can only speak about the johns here; I can't speak for the prostitutes -- is that it's only the guys who post on whoreboards who are so into commercial sex, who invest so much emotional energy in it, that they'd even consider the possibility of falling in love with a prostitute. Not because of any prejudices. But because for most guys who see prostitutes, the idea of falling in love with one would be like falling in love with the person who sells you suits. Meaning, it's theoretically possible, but why would you even think about it?

Kimmie

10-22-2002, 01:40 PM

DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO DITTO

BigMadM

10-22-2002, 01:41 PM

hot4chicks-pswope said it a bit better in my opinion...he said hes an atm with a dick.

Kimmie

10-22-2002, 01:48 PM

Men from message boards are so passionate about the hobby.

I also find them to be the most considerate, and most understanding of clients.

They basically already know the whore etiquette, so its makes the whole process of making an appointment and the session its self, easy.

I wonder if it is possible for a john from a PMB, and a prostitute from the same PMB, to have a relationship, and it work?

Yeah I know dumb question..

jseah

10-22-2002, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie
I wonder if it is possible for a john from a PMB, and a prostitute from the same PMB, to have a relationship, and it work?

?????......I suppose only time will tell.............

Kimmie

10-22-2002, 01:55 PM

jseah i dont know, I guess so.

Has UG ever had an "open" couple?

hot4chicks

10-22-2002, 02:01 PM

I still don't understand why any guy would want to date a hooker or why a hooker would want to date a customer - even if they practice whoretiquette.

I have nice table manners, but don't want to date waitresses.
I enjoy plays but don't date actresses.
I enjoy the Oak Bar, but wouldn't date anyone who works there.

I honestly don't see the upside in having an off-premise relationship or dating any service workers. Although I do see the apparent romantic charm in it, but I also think the much greater potential for real downside risk outweighs the romantic appeal of it.

h4c, knows he will now be called a snob

h. von bingen

10-22-2002, 02:22 PM

why i like, nay LOVE the hobby so much is that it is more than a metaphor, it is a microcosm. the pro/john relationship is so interesting because it brings the power dynamic inherent in gender politics (c. 2002 [and by extension all power politics, or u could just say politics {i would}]) so much closer to the surface. e.g. i got it ($)/(pussy), u want it ($)(pussy), gimme what u/u got.

now what if we changed that equation in this life or just in life? what if we said: i'm want to give u what i got ($/pussy) and u can give me what u got ($/pussy), and if u don't yr the loser not me, in fact i would be the WINNER. what if we did that?

it's easy 4 me to be subversive, all i have is brains. (i) i don't have gender primacy, and (ii) i don't (or more accurately wasn't born with) economic primacy. i am relatively fearless and live life as i think it ought 2 be lived (ergo mm's powerlessness); these are freeing factors, but more like the results of (i) and (ii) than the reason i can believe in miracles. luck is the residue of design, or more properly happiness is the result of courage of conviction.

hope that's clear. u do have a point, as a woman, i live less in the life of big lies (but alot more in the life of small -- chris rock would have it vice-versed, i dunno). but it's true marginalized people (and i do hate that term as much as u do) can be kinder, more honest, fairer . . . so much less to lose.

i think it's possible to topple what seems structurally inherent on its ear -- done it, do it. but, to live outside the law u must be honest (ask jc if he agrees).

carpal tunnelled,
that's all jc (yeah the real one) taught/teaches me,
hvb

don't counter-argue me w/ that's so naieve, it's ad fem/hominem to the nth, gimme sumpin' more orig.

i try, try and try, try and try,
or sometimes if feel like i'm tied to the . . .,
hvb

re: yr lastest post: climb every rainbow, ford every stream . . . or there really is only a pool problem if the pool is too small.

patricia williams = bad scholarship, right idea,
hvb

justlooking

10-22-2002, 02:40 PM

I think I understand why you understood me to be saying what you did. But all I really meant is that it seems to me that female sex workers lie less (a LOT less) to female customers than to male customers for a number of reasons including (1) they're not as used to female customers, so haven't ritualized their response to them, (2) they feel less "threatened" by female customers than by male customers, (3) they're genuinely happy to have female customers as opposed to male customers, and (4) they are probably more genuinely attracted to an average-looking female than to an average-looking male. OTOH, a male/female session is, as I've said, based almost entirely on lies. I didn't really mean anything involving gender politics.

justlooking

10-22-2002, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by h. von bingen
but it's true marginalized people (and i do hate that term as much as u do) can be kinder, more honest, fairer . . . so much less to lose.

Oh, now that you edited, that is what I meant. Thanks for making me understand implications of my thoughts that I hadn't fixed on.

justme

10-22-2002, 03:31 PM

I'd agree with the notion that there may be social constructs that establish possible differences between the experiences of male and female clients*. Granted that, we're still stuck with the fact that the possibility of authentic feelings developing between a male client and a female providor is remote.

* - Unfortunately, we seem to have tremendously insufficient data to back up any claims about the experiences of female clients.

h. von bingen

10-22-2002, 03:34 PM

genuine?

i know one thing 4 sure, i am a lot better looking girl than you are a boy. if i wasn't, i wouldn't have balls this big. likewise, i was born cool, i.e. to run with the cool kids (and lucky enuf to be a closet geek). this just isn't true for the boys here. quel dommage, but it does level the playing field somewhat. you can do the dance of joy, however -- i am aging at a frighteningly rapid rate.

pax baby pax,
hvb

but i still say, it doesn't necessary have to be: that female providers prefer female clients . . . that is a social construct like most everything else. it merely requires the powerful to cede power willingly and gracefully. some have done it . . . think my hero st. frank of ass.

ana's show?
hombre will go,
me = too hi profile i think,
hvb

Slinky Bender

10-22-2002, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie

How do you make words bigger?

You put more letters in them. ( but you have to learn them first !) :rolleyes: :p :eek:

justlooking

10-22-2002, 03:38 PM

If you meant me, genuine.

Slinky Bender

10-22-2002, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by h. von bingen
why i like, nay LOVE the hobby so much is that it is more than a metaphor, it is a microcosm..........

I think ( although I don't know you enough to state this ) that there's a difference between you making these statements, and most guys. How many providers have you seen ? I think that when you say it, you mean more that you "love" the concept of "the hobby" and what it means, whereas guys are more prone to mean "I love getting my dick sucked".

greekgirlinnj

10-22-2002, 05:05 PM

Originally posted by justlooking
I think I understand why you understood me to be saying what you did. But all I really meant is that it seems to me that female sex workers lie less (a LOT less) to female customers than to male customers for a number of reasons including (1) they're not as used to female customers, so haven't ritualized their response to them, (2) they feel less "threatened" by female customers than by male customers, (3) they're genuinely happy to have female customers as opposed to male customers, and (4) they are probably more genuinely attracted to an average-looking female than to an average-looking male. OTOH, a male/female session is, as I've said, based almost entirely on lies. I didn't really mean anything involving gender politics.

just looking..

i have yet to lie to anyone..if i say a man is goodlooking guess what i think he is..i find im attracted to all types

i prefer male customers well actually never had a female customer

what the fuck do i need to lie about..so they see me again..i can see why some would think that but i think my personality and service make them come back

and if i say i had a good time that means i did

is it to far feached that some of us love what we do i mean come on

Slinky Bender

10-22-2002, 05:10 PM

Personally, however, I don't put the chances of a provider and John falling in love as nearly as remote as most of you. I've seen it happen, and more than once. But the problem I have is that it's so much more often that it's one sided, and that they are not both in love, that's it's just a bad idea to go in "thinking" it's possible, because it leads so, so, so often to wrong thinking that it's not the healthy way to think about it. ( I should probably rewrite that in English sometime ).

Slinky Bender

10-22-2002, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by justlooking
I think I understand why you understood me to be saying what you did. But all I really meant is that it seems to me that female sex workers lie less (a LOT less) to female customers than to male customers for a number of reasons including (1) they're not as used to female customers, so haven't ritualized their response to them, (2) they feel less "threatened" by female customers than by male customers, (3) they're genuinely happy to have female customers as opposed to male customers, and (4) they are probably more genuinely attracted to an average-looking female than to an average-looking male. OTOH, a male/female session is, as I've said, based almost entirely on lies. I didn't really mean anything involving gender politics.

I also think that odds are* that they would also have more respect for their female clients.**

* note that this isn't a statement about all providers and all Johns - I think that way too much of this particular discussion is "all this" and "all that" - stop laughing jl.

** Echoing HvB's sentiments about female empowerment, etc. I think there would be a decent amount of "Kewl, that's an empowered chick who's seing me", as opposed to "Another fucking loser cheating on his wife" - for those providers who might be inclined to think along lines of the latter.

Flounder

10-22-2002, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie

You literally gave me the shirt out of your closet. ( yankee shirt, thanks again btw)

I thought I was the only one who ended up giving a girl the shirt off my back. Ms Kennedy took mine.

h. von bingen

10-22-2002, 09:42 PM

enough weird permutations of sexual relationships (and known so many soon to be, current and retired providers) as to be able to assess the dynamic of the hobby without eating the whole pie so to speak. there is merit to the argument that i haven't seen many providers, but i would bet that i have as long or longer history with prostitution than you have. (certainly proportional to my lifetime, i have MORE experience.) plus, as woman i have had to dodge the dating 4 dollars bullet many times.

that being said, call me a romantic, call me a naif, call me insane -- but i refuse to judge on the basis of norms created by other people. we agree that people can fall in love in all kinds of circumstances. it is often one-sided in the hobby -- and out (that's why its so scary to take the risk). but, w/o the risk how can we have the success? me, i'm not afraid of failure -- i'm afraid of NEVER failing.

also, re: being an "empowerd woman," just call me a girl with enough extra cash to see a professional. it's not too different from collecting limoges or seeing a good shrink or going to georgette klinger on a regular basis, most girls aren't so lucky.

you know what's funny about this place -- i have never been criticized so much by people with whom i am in fundamental agreement with in my whole life. i think this is due to self-loathing in the men who do this & post, they are certainly a self-selecting group, and they are conflicted. they love women but have to pay dearly for their love, so they have GOT to feel bad about it. me, i love women and am happy to financially empower them. they are me.

hvb

Slinky Bender

10-22-2002, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by h. von bingen
but i would bet that i have as long or longer history with prostitution than you have.

I'll take that bet.

hot4chicks

10-23-2002, 05:49 AM

Wow..a post from hvb that I can understand the first time I read it.

pswope

10-23-2002, 06:55 AM

The religion created by JC and the theory of commercial sex realism espoused by jl,slinky and others suggests that it is impossible for johns and working girls to fall in love (whatever that means,which is part of the problem with this discusson).
My own (sadly) vast experience would lead me to agree entirely with this position,though I'm in agreement with Frog's Quantum Theory of Commercial Relationships.

Imo, as a general rule (especially applicable to full time working girls and johns),the degree of alienation needed to be that precludes any sort of genuine intimacy and emotional attachment.

BUT

Given the fact that there are a myriad of lonely and emotionally needy johns and working girls, it would not surprise me that both parties to the equation could pierce the ho/trick paradigm (ho/trick is more apt for it speaks to the mutual disrespect* much more honestly) and have what they think are geniune feelings for each other (or in more cases unilateral genuine feelings)

Imo,in most cases,these feelings are false positives in the sense that they cannot be compared to love between 2 people emanating from a non-commercial context.

A closer analogy would be the ostensible love that exists for a pimp by his working girl(s). The lady thinks she's in love,but we would be hardpressed to agree.

* In a true Ci Void or alienated commercial relationship, the parities really don't know each other. Thus the mutual antipathy is more for the generic roles that each symblize to the other.

justme

10-23-2002, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by slinkybender
I'll take that bet.

Can I get in on this?

HvB -

but, w/o the risk how can we have the success?

Getting involved in any relationship involves risk. The thing is, not all risks are equal. I think what's being claimed here is that the marginal risk associated with a prostititue / john relationship is vastly higher than that for an average relationship. I think a lot of us would argue that by taking this risk, you pay an opportunity cost of not taking a (lower) risk in another person where the expected value is significantly higher.

Remember, we aren't really talking about absolute staements of possibile reality. We're more or less talking about maxims by which to best pursue your activity in prostitution. While taking big risks may be acceptable to you, it may have greater ramifications in the life of those with more responsibilities than just themselves or those that already have non healthy attitudes about romantic relationships. Worse, while you may be able to evaluate those risks objectively, we've seen time and time again where the people that get involved in these things have not. More often than not, it's the very aspects of people's lives and personalities that make them vulnerable to unilateral non-genuine relationships that contribute heavily to their not realistically analysing their risk. And so we shout up and down that about the probability of these things working out being so close to nil that you're better off assuming it just can't happen.

Geezy Muldoon

10-23-2002, 11:44 AM

WHEN I WAS BACK THERE IN SEMINARY SCHOOL, THERE WAS A PERSON THERE WHO PUT FORTH THE PROPOSITION THAT YOU COULD PETITION THE LORD WITH PRAYER,

A man can safely experience love for a prostitute who he finds lovable; provided he recognizes at all times that, as far as she is concerned, the woman could be having sex with any other man or woman during those moments he is with her, and may, in fact, be secretly wishing that this was the case.

PETITION THE LORD WITH PRAYER,

All that is required is a complete lack of self-importance and vanity about oneself while experiencing a simultaneous feeling of affectionate appreciation for the woman, her story and character; those personal qualities in her in which her beauty truly lies.* Since affection is always required to experience the best sex, this is the condition required to be fulfilled for the production of the best possible commercial sex.

There can be no need or hope involved when confronting the Void. There is no defense against it. It is as much a part of the picture of commercial sex as the sky above. The Void, her ferocity and need to have promiscuous sex with all reasonable comers to control and dictate the terms of her own beauty and desirability, is what allowed you to meet her in the first place. It can never be bought off and told to disappear through sly tricks of conceit or childish self-importance.

PETITION THE LORD WITH PRAYER.

A man who doesn't view the experience of love for a prostitute in such terms will find himself roughly in the same psychological position as the evil black leather coated be-Homburged and bespectacled Nazi in the penultimate scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark.

A wonderful feeling of emotional and sensual delight will first envelop him as he thrills to the caresses of angels that he believes he can control through the payment of money. As the reality of the situation dawns upon him, however, his face will start to melt and he will start to scream as he belatedly and unwillingly confronts his own essential fungibility.

YOU CANNOT PETITION THE LORD WITH PRAYER.

It's really quite simple. A child could figure it out.

Any contrary theorizing is pure Dreamboy bullshit which lacks the courage to stare the psychological realites and inane wish fulfillment nature of commercial sex full in the face.

Judge Crater (just another Character in the Void learning new childish tricks and resisting the urge to look while tied to a stake and wearing a cool hat)

* This assumes, of course, that she possesses such personal qualities. Not all prostitutes do.

justlooking

10-23-2002, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by slinkybender
Personally, however, I don't put the chances of a provider and John falling in love as nearly as remote as most of you. I've seen it happen, and more than once. But the problem I have is that it's so much more often that it's one sided, and that they are not both in love, that's it's just a bad idea to go in "thinking" it's possible, because it leads so, so, so often to wrong thinking that it's not the healthy way to think about it. ( I should probably rewrite that in English sometime ).

This is actually EXACTLY what I've been trying to say.

billyS

10-23-2002, 11:59 AM

I wonder why Kimmie all of the sudden is grappling with the issue of a provider falling for a client? Asking about open UG couples?
I'm putting my money on VegasJim. Dinner before the Ana Lovelis concert? Sounds romantic. Him giving her the shirt off his back?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

justlooking

10-23-2002, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by slinkybender
I also think that odds are* that they would also have more respect for their female clients.**

* note that this isn't a statement about all providers and all Johns - I think that way too much of this particular discussion is "all this" and "all that" - stop laughing jl.

** Echoing HvB's sentiments about female empowerment, etc. I think there would be a decent amount of "Kewl, that's an empowered chick who's seing me", as opposed to "Another fucking loser cheating on his wife" - for those providers who might be inclined to think along lines of the latter.

This also is really what I was trying to say.

(I KNOW that fn. ** is absolutely the way most of the strippers I know see things.)

justlooking

10-23-2002, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by h. von bingen
you know what's funny about this place -- i have never been criticized so much by people with whom i am in fundamental agreement with in my whole life. i think this is due to self-loathing in the men who do this & post, they are certainly a self-selecting group, and they are conflicted. they love women but have to pay dearly for their love, so they have GOT to feel bad about it. me, i love women and am happy to financially empower them. they are me.

I hope hvb won't take it as an insult of this clearly 100% true observation (which I for one am grateful she posted) if I tell the story of Brahms and the music critic.

When Brahms's First Symphony first came out, a critic pointed out something that's been crystal clear to music lovers for something like 125 years now: the main theme of the last movement is almost exactly lifted from the main theme of the last movement of Beethoven's Ninth.

When told of this criticism, Brahms responded, "Any ass could see that."

justlooking

10-23-2002, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by greekgirlinnj
i have yet to lie to anyone..if i say a man is goodlooking guess what i think he is..i find im attracted to all types

i prefer male customers well actually never had a female customer

what the fuck do i need to lie about..so they see me again..i can see why some would think that but i think my personality and service make them come back

and if i say i had a good time that means i did

is it to far feached that some of us love what we do i mean come on

If these are improper questions, please forgive me and don't answer them:

1. Have you ever participated in any supply side-only "biz" boards?

2. If this kind of thing ever even comes up on them (and I guess I would expect it wouldn't), do you have the impression that most other prostitutes on those boards have the same attitude you do?

Slinky Bender

10-23-2002, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by justlooking

This is actually EXACTLY what I've been trying to say.

What ? That I should rewrite my posts in English ? :p

justlooking

10-23-2002, 12:35 PM

I might also make the argument that, just as the subset of johns who post on whoreboards is different from the set of johns in general, the subset of prostitutes who really participate in whoreboard discussions (like greekgirl and Kimmie and some others), rather than either ignoring the boards or just using them for promotion, is different from the set of prostitutes in general. Perhaps, just as male consumer-side whoreboard posters are more apt than the general population of johns to use whoring as a kind of social life, so are female supply-side whoreboard posters.

I know that most of the prostitutes I "know" well enough to discuss such things with (none of whom participates in boards or any kind of organized whoring-culture) wouldn't say they love their work or that they like most of their johns.

And I can think of one woman I used to "know" who, from what I've been told by mutual friends, appears to have undergone at least a partial change of attitude after she started getting involved in boards.

exrubbernecker

10-23-2002, 12:40 PM

1. Is this the longest thread ever?

2. I get what Kimmie is saying. While there must be some happy couples out there somewhere who met this way, the odds arent good. I've worked the floor in large house (still around today), as a phone girl for a few big houses, as an indy from my home, and now run an agency. So, Ive met alot of working girls. Ive never once heard of anyone I'm aquainted with dating a client, ever. I've heard girls say a particular client is cute, hot, turns them on, etc., but I dont know of anyone who has had a relationship with a client. In all my years meeting clients, only once did i feel truly attracted to one. Years ago, while working incall, a guy "chose me" and he was truly my type, physically, personality, his line of work...I know it was mutual because he kept extending the session hour after hour. But, alas, I thought too bad we met here, and I'm sure he did as well, because after an amazing night I never saw him again. Open minded or no, I couldnt imagine dating someone I'd met in, lets not mince words, a whorehouse.

Its unlikely the girl would leave the biz anytime soon, so that means now your former client/current boyfreind gets to live your lie too. How'd you meet? What do you do for work? Etc.

Today, Im married. I stopped working full service once I got engaged, and while my husband knows about the phone jobs and that I run a massage, no sex, agency now, & that i fill in there sometimes, he doesnt know about the full service, nor will he ever. I think its too much to ask the man you love to accept the idea of another man putting his hands all over you, even if they understand its a job without emotional atachment.

phil-a

10-23-2002, 01:18 PM

I don't think it is possible

I say stick to your guns. One of the best ways to make something happen is to insist that it's impossible.

Slinky Bender

10-23-2002, 01:39 PM

FWIW, there's at least 3 guys on this board who met their current wives by seeing them as customers first.

JackT

10-23-2002, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by slinkybender
FWIW, there's at least 3 guys on this board who met their current wives by seeing them as customers first.

"customers" as in commercial sex customers? or are we talking about the cute check out girl at the local Kings?

vegasjim

10-23-2002, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by billyS
I wonder why Kimmie all of the sudden is grappling with the issue of a provider falling for a client? Asking about open UG couples?
I'm putting my money on VegasJim. Dinner before the Ana Lovelis concert? Sounds romantic. Him giving her the shirt off his back?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Wrong BillyS. Yes it is true I am taking her to dinner before the show but there will be another beautiful woman with us as well. I just would rather have dinner with two beautiful woman than by myself. Also guess what Kimmie was not the first one I invited. If you come to the show you can meet me and I will buy you a drink and you will see I am a pretty straight shooter.

justme

10-23-2002, 01:50 PM

How many 'sock puppets' does Straight Shooter have?

vegasjim

10-23-2002, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by justme
How many 'sock puppets' does Straight Shooter have?

Sorry don't understand.

justme

10-23-2002, 01:57 PM

Sorry,

Staright Shooter was a poster on JAG/*** a long time ago (I think he posts here occasionally as SS). A few days ago, HvB claimed to be a straight shooter and I 'outted her' as SS. I was just making the same bad joke.

justlooking

10-23-2002, 02:44 PM

I read milkmaid's post and I feel like at last I'm back in the world as I know it, rather than in lalaland.

Slinkybender -- I think the fact that at least three male posters here are married to sex workers who they met as customers proves my point about whoreboard posters being different from the general run of johns. The ASSC newsgroup had at least three male posters who were married to strippers who they met as customers. It means that many posters are "lifers" (that term is stolen from a prominent ASSC poster), much more into the "lifestyle" than any average customer.

billyS

10-23-2002, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by slinkybender
FWIW, there's at least 3 guys on this board who met their current wives by seeing them as customers first.
Are the girls still working? I'd love to review someone's wife.

Slinky Bender

10-23-2002, 03:00 PM

JL,

Agreed, except for one thing: to some extent, we're not talking about the universe of all Johns. We're talking about the subset of Johns who could possibly think that they were in some "relationship" with a provider. While those aren't the same subset, they probably are somewhat congruent.

Kimmie

10-23-2002, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by billyS
I wonder why Kimmie all of the sudden is grappling with the issue of a provider falling for a client? Asking about open UG couples?
I'm putting my money on VegasJim. Dinner before the Ana Lovelis concert? Sounds romantic. Him giving her the shirt off his back?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

billy stop starting trouble!

I asked the question because thats what I do.

I ask questions. I am a curious soul.

I am not falling for any clients. Not from UG or any other place. I think if you read my posts you will see I categorize clients differently from men I fuck outside of work..

billy baby, you sound jealous!!

Is it because you want me to fall for you? You know.. You are kinda growing on me. I still think about how good you felt in..... ah nevermind.. sorry.. lost my train of thought!

Kimmie

10-23-2002, 03:28 PM

justme mentioned earlier in this thread about how I have changed my attitude since I have been actively posting on UG.

He is 100% correct. Some of this attitude change is good. Some of it bad.

I am exposed to so many different types of men here. Some who approach the profession in a business like manner, some who have no regard for prostitutes at all and some who fall madly, deeply in love when a girl is playing her role.

I really do see a whole other side of this life after being here. And I think that if you gentlemen were apart of a predominately all prostitute message board, your attitude would change as well towards prostitutes, no matter how you felt about them before.

Some of you will walk away feeling better about us, some of you will walk away feeling worse.

Thats what I am getting from being here.

I think thats why I get so much shit from the men here about my attitude..

Geezy Muldoon

10-23-2002, 03:29 PM

I really thought my Characters in the Void theory settled everything once and for all time. Silly me.

If threads such as this keep up, when I am elected President and quickly thereafter declare martial law, I'm going to start making whoreboard posters actually marry the prostitutes they are enamored of and broadcast the resulting domestic harmony on 24 hour a day pay per view cam sites.

(Not only will this provide hours of cruel fun, but it'll enable me to earn money. Congress will always be stingy even if I do declare martial law.)

greekgirlinnj

10-23-2002, 03:37 PM

so marrying more than one man/woman will be legal

Kimmie

10-23-2002, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by Judge Crater

If threads such as this keep up, when I am elected President and quickly thereafter declare martial law, I'm going to start making whoreboard posters actually marry the prostitutes they are enamored of and broadcast the resulting domestic harmony on 24 hour a day pay per view cam sites.

This sounds like a wonderful idea. You will get my vote..

I promise you one thing, there will be less participation of johns on these boards, if they were forced to marry the girls they fell for.

Slinky will be out of business..

justlooking

10-23-2002, 03:49 PM

When someone puts up a post as great as Judge Crater's, it's hard to know what to say.

Geezy Muldoon

10-23-2002, 04:17 PM

Thank you.

Which is not to say that a one sided experience of love for a prostitute is not possible. A how-to manual for this sort of Lover character experience is set forth in my first post in this thread.

This is the only way to treat the recurring issue in any logical, sensible fashion.

Sex IS better when affection is involved. Erections and orgasms are more intense.

This is where commercial sex falls far, far short of good non-commercial sex. This is why people keep posting about it. They know what they are buying and selling is not as good and are frustrated by it.

In my experience, prostitutes can tell the difference and actually enjoy sex more with johns who feel affection for them. It feels GOOD to be fucked by someone who values you and treats you with tenderness.

My Characters in the Void theory and my how-to manual for a Buddhist type sex experience with prostitutes does it all. It's as good as it ever is going to get.

If a prostitute tells you you've breached her Void, don't believe her until she's bared her breasts on the steps of St. Patrick's Cathedral and publicly wept in honor of your lovemaking. It's as simple as that.

Until then, a man need only follow my Characters in the Void theory, study my how-to manual for a Buddhist type sex experience and hope and pray that I don't become President and broadcast his unhappy ass getting what he says he wants.

vegasjim

10-23-2002, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by billyS

Are the girls still working? I'd love to review someone's wife.

Billy if you go to Vegas I can give you some names that are still working and happily married.

billyS

10-23-2002, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie

billy stop starting trouble!
Why? Thats what I do

Originally posted by Kimmie

billy baby, you sound jealous!!
Nah, Vegas Jim offered to buy me a drink. Now I don't feel left out.

Originally posted by Kimmie

.. You are kinda growing on me.
Yeah well when I stick my cock in you, I'll be growing in you too.

vegasjim

10-23-2002, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by Kimmie

I am exposed to so many different types of men here. Some who approach the profession in a business like manner, some who have no regard for prostitutes at all and some who fall madly, deeply in love when a girl is playing her role.

In my mind I don't fall into any of those categories.

vegasjim

10-23-2002, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by greekgirlinnj
so marrying more than one man/woman will be legal

In Vegas I know two girls married to the same guy and they all live together and are happy. Both girls are providers and their husband runs their web site and drives for them.

Geezy Muldoon

10-23-2002, 05:18 PM

I wouldn't be too happy about that guy if I were either of those girls' fathers. Sounds like a lazy, scurvy, dog-faced, no-neck, dickless polyster wearing pimp to me.

Call me old fashioned, but I'd be just a tad upset by this arrangement if I were someone's dear old dad.

vegasjim

10-23-2002, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by Judge Crater
I wouldn't be too happy about that guy if I were either of those girls' fathers. Sounds like a lazy, scurvy, dog-faced, no-neck, dickless polyster wearing pimp to me.

Call me old fashioned, but I'd be just a tad upset by this arrangement if I were someone's dear old dad.

Believe it or not they are all very happy. He also works at a regular job and they all live together in a very nice home that they own. One of the girls just had his baby so the baby now has two mothers and a father.

justlooking

10-23-2002, 05:25 PM

Really gives us all something to aspire to.

vegasjim

10-23-2002, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by justlooking
Really gives us all something to aspire to.

I am not saying living like that is for everyone. I am not even saying I agree with it. But I know them and different strokes for different folks. That is what makes the world go around. I also know the parents of the girls have accepted it and do visit to see the baby. If they are all happy I don’t see a problem.

dude6464

10-23-2002, 05:46 PM

I have been reading this board for a few days and you people are smart witty and funny and kimmie is awesome

billyS

10-23-2002, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by dude6464
I have been reading this board for a few days and you people are smart witty and funny and kimmie is awesome
Dude,read my review of her in Lunch with Kimmie

Kimmie

10-23-2002, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by billyS

Yeah well when I stick my cock in you, I'll be growing in you too.

ah billy, you really know how to make me wet... such a charmer..

Hopefully you will have already grown before you are in me..

Thats if I let you get that far ;)

Kimmie

10-23-2002, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by vegasjim

In Vegas I know two girls married to the same guy and they all live together and are happy. Both girls are providers and their husband runs their web site and drives for them.

Isn't that called a pimp??

Space

10-23-2002, 10:01 PM

Wwanderer

10-24-2002, 03:40 AM

I am sorry to have missed most of this thread, hidden away in the NYC forum instead of in General where it surely belongs.

Not much to add at this point except that I continue to be amazed at the people who think that anything they couldn't do or experience is impossible for anyone else as well. Maybe it will help to take it out of the context of just the Hobby. Go read some biographies or even just the newspaper. The world is full of people capable of acts of enormous evil and good, love and hate, courage and cowardice, selfishness and selflessness...whatever, you name it...far beyond what you or anyone you have ever met are capable of. They willingly die and, much harder still, live the whole of their daily lives for the benefit of others..for strangers even. Others commit acts of unspeakable cruelty for the sheer fun of it. The psychological boundaries of what is possible for people are far far out there, if they exist at all. In other words, it is hard to even conceive of an act which is physically possible for people that *someone* will not willingly do, no matter how extreme it is or in what way. This is true in nearly any significant realm of life you could name. And now you ask us to believe that there is only one (emotional) way to deal with being a provider or a john, only one way to feel or come to terms with paying for or being paid for sex, only one way to evolve a relationship from that starting point. I mean, wow people, get real. Life and people are just not so simple and uniform. The "cynics" in this discussion tend to say that the "romantics" are being unrealistic, but this criticism has it backwards. It is those who want to say what *all* other people are and are not capable of that are burying their heads in the sand in order to believe that their lives and personalities and experiences and observations form the limits for everyone else.

-Ww

Wwanderer

10-24-2002, 04:04 AM

There has been a lot of talk in this thread about the possibility of "real love" between a provider and a client. Kimmie seems to feel that it is not possible, though anything short of it is. JC sometimes chants "only love can pierce the Void". Etc.

Well, another news flash from the messy real world: The words "real love" don't even remotely refer to the same feelings and relationship for different couples. People and their connections are so endlessly complex that they are capable of a huge number of different states that could only be called "real love". I am not attempting to muddy the water with "mother's love" and "brotherly love" and all that; I am talking about romantic sexual love between a man and a woman. I have been married to my wife for over 30 years, and we have as rich and complex and strong a relationship as I could imagine; if it is not some form of "real love", I don't know what else it could possibly be called. Now it happens that we have known, as a couple, two other couples very well and have known them for most of those same three decades plus. Guess what? They both also have rich, complex and strong relationships, but neither of them is like ours, nor are they much like each other. Think how many ways there are to play a chess game; there are a lot more ways to play a marriage, so to speak. What is more, there are other women whom I really love...and again I don't think anyone familiar with the details of our relationships could think of another name to give it...but they are not much like my wife nor is my relationship with them like my marriage.

So, when you talk about love, it may be worth keeping in mind that it comes
in varieties you have never experienced nor even witnessed in others. Are you so sure you can make absolute statements about it?

-Ww

pswope

10-24-2002, 06:19 AM

Big Ditto to Ww's last post (a point I cryptically tried to make). This thread is problematic in the sense that you can't emperically nor objectively define something as abstract and ephemeral as love.

Geezy Muldoon

10-24-2002, 08:01 AM

Wwanderer:

Couples in the real world outside of commercial sex obviously relate to each other in different ways. What passes between them often meets the test for what I would call real love. The parties involved treat each other with respect and don't indifferently insist on the other party playing some stulified role to glorify their own fears.

All that being the case, I still think what I am saying about commercial sex is dead-on target. I view my Characters in the Void theory as a kind of heat seeking missile fired up the asshole of the collective unconscious of commercial sex.

You can experience "love" for a prostitute only if the conditions observed in my first post from yesterday are strictly observed. This will allow a man to successfully play the Lover character without detriment to himself while recognizing the reality of what is happening. It doesn't get any better than that.

This method will allow a man to breach his own Void, the Void created by the childish self-importance and vanity of being a man showing up with cash and expecting something. He won't breach the woman's Void at all. Unless she shows up on the steps of St. Patrick's Cathedral, bares her breasts and weeps publicly in honor of your lovemaking, she has merely processed another Lover character.

I have very, very high standards about what constitutes love in this world; one which is far less romantic and grueling than yours.

I have researched the matter thoroughly and know in my heart of hearts that my Character in the Void theory is accurate. If you want to experience love with a prostitute, my methodology is the only one possible.

It's very simple. One cannot command love or anything really through being charming, powerful, handsome, big dicked, beautiful, needy, un-needy, angry, kind, poor, seductive, rich, smart, etc. People who are heavily involved in commercial sex as buyers and sellers just can't seem to get that through their heads.

What's worse is that your continued insistence on Dreamboy reality serves as a lure for guys like Phantom, who lack the emotional and intellectual resources and strength to contemplate and understand what is actually happening to them in commercial sex.

Wandererer, shame on you. I'm going to tell Mother that you are being bad again.

Best, etc.

Judge Crater (just another Character in the Void, but the fanciest masturbator of them all)

Geezy Muldoon

10-24-2002, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by vegasjim
Believe it or not they are all very happy. He also works at a regular job and they all live together in a very nice home that they own. One of the girls just had his baby so the baby now has two mothers and a father.

I think the grade school book publishers will now probably have to come up with a series of politically correct books describing such a domestic situation in glowing terms. Possible titles:

Johnny Learns to Pimp Walk

Johnny Has Two Mommies in Lock-Up

Johnny's First Gold Tooth, etc.

Geezy Muldoon

10-24-2002, 08:24 AM

Wwanderer:

Of course, if you are only talking about a good quality top notch Charmer experience, I understand what you are trying to say. I had one last night with an agency girl. She laughed at most of my jokes and allowed me to think of myself as quite intelligent. She even came during sex.

Big fucking whoop-to-do.

Best, etc.

Judge Crater

paulus

10-24-2002, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by Wwanderer

I have been married to my wife for over 30 years, and we have as rich and complex and strong a relationship as I could imagine; if it is not some form of "real love", I don't know what else it could possibly be called.
-Ww

WW

You have a certain sequence and logical orderliness in your thinking which I admire and respect. Hence I suppose you have somehow defined and clarified at least in your own mind how your hobbying over so many years harmoniously fit together with the above statement?

Differently put if your marriage is so complete why do you need prostitutes? Am I missing something?

Respectfully.

pswope

10-24-2002, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by paulus

WW

You have a certain sequence and logical orderliness in your thinking which I admire and respect. Hence I suppose you have somehow defined and clarified at least in your own mind how your hobbying over so many years harmoniously fit together with the above statement?

Differently put if your marriage is so complete why do you need prostitutes? Am I missing something?

Respectfully.

The Biological Imperative.

justlooking

10-24-2002, 09:01 AM

With all due respect, Wwanderer, I think you're setting up a straw man here.

I don't think the "cynics" in this discussion are saying what you say they're saying. I don't think most of us are denying the possibility of "real love" (whatever, as you point out, that is) between prostitutes and johns. I think what we're saying is instead encapsulated in the following two quotations:

Originally posted by slinkybender
Personally, however, I don't put the chances of a provider and John falling in love as nearly as remote as most of you. I've seen it happen, and more than once. But the problem I have is that it's so much more often that it's one sided, and that they are not both in love, that's it's just a bad idea to go in "thinking" it's possible, because it leads so, so, so often to wrong thinking that it's not the healthy way to think about it. ( I should probably rewrite that in English sometime ).

Originally posted by Judge Crater
What's worse is that your continued insistence on Dreamboy reality serves as a lure for guys like Phantom, who lack the emotional and intellectual resources and strength to contemplate and understand what is actually happening to them in commercial sex.

justlooking

10-24-2002, 09:12 AM

I also have to comment on one other thing that I think sets off the so-called "cynics" in discussions like this.

The "romantics" often seem (at least to me) to come off pretty smugly, as if they think they're better johns (or even better human beings) because they're able to experience these true feelings with sex workers. They make it seem like it's positively noble for a john to fall in love with a prostitute. Well look: if I fell in love with my accountant or my dry cleaner, and she reciprocated my feelings, it would be very nice for both of us. In a slow week, it might even get us "Wedding of the Week" in the Times. But it wouldn't prove that I'm better at being an accounting or dry cleaning customer (much less better at being a person) than everybody else is.

justme

10-24-2002, 09:55 AM

I'm perverse. The thing I enjoy the most about spending time with sex workers (especially strippers) is briefly getting past their masks (piercing their void). But, I'm not a pretentious moron, so I'm willing to admit that this seldom happens, and when it does it's only temporary. (Note to JC: I really do think you should ammend CiV to allow for brief, fleeting void piercings). Still, I try to have sessions that make this kind of activity a little more commonplace. Generally speaking, that involves brutal awareness of the nature of the session as well as the pretense of honesty (not honesty, simply its pretense). Maybe I'm completely deluding myself, but I think the women I pay most regularly really do prefer me to other (not all other) customers (for whatever reason).

Anyway, my approach to the whole thing isn't businesslike. Nor am I looking to play any particular role (at least no more so than in my dealings with anyone). I try to be justme at all times, with the dumb observation that justme is justdifferent to different people. I think this approach is similar to the approach ostensibly advocated by 'dreamboys'.

In the end, however, I pay prostitutes to have sex with me. No matter how good I can get that sex, it's still commercial sex and I'm still 'paying for them to leave'. My relationship with the sex workers in my life might be cordial and even warm, but not only am I not looking to develop romantic feelings for these women, I would be more than a little freaked out if I did. I just want really great sex. If I had the best rapport with a prostitute, but she was horrible in bed - I'd stop seeing her.

Dreamboys claim the same thing. They claim that they aren't looking for love in all the wrong places, just that their approach to prostitution leads to better busts and more satisfying sessions. If that were the case, I think most cynics would be happy to let dreamboys pursue whatever strategy they found best for enjoying prostitution.

It raises serious doubts in my mind, however, when the same people who defend 'emotional bridges' for the pure sake of getting better sex for sale are the exact same people who defend the possibility (or even the sanity) of clients and porostitutes developing serious relationships.

It just don't seem Kosher.

justlooking

10-24-2002, 10:01 AM

Complete DITTO.

That's exactly my approach, too.

I guess it's fortunate that justme and I don't ever see the same sex workers.

Geezy Muldoon

10-24-2002, 10:20 AM

JM:

For all the reasons set forth in other opinions, I hereby deny your motion to amend the Characters in the Void theory to allow for brief piercings of the Void.

As set forth in my first opinion yesterday in this thread and my subsequent elaboration this morning, you may only pierce your own Void; provided you follow the strict conditions required for such an effort.

If you've pierced her Void, she'll have to go to the steps of St. Patrick's Cathedral and prove it in the proscribed fashion (i.e., baring of breasts, public weeping, etc.).

So ordered

Judge Crater

h. von bingen

10-24-2002, 10:23 AM

when you are president i KNOW you will want me as secretary of state, or i could be chief of staff or i could be the first lady's chief staff. whaddya think?

extremism in defense of liberty is no vice,
now there goes a man . . . he doth stride the world,
hvb

justme

10-24-2002, 10:24 AM

I guess it's fortunate that justme and I don't ever see the same sex workers.

I said:

Maybe I'm completely deluding myself, but I think the women I pay most regularly really do prefer me to other (not all other) customers (for whatever reason).

I have often wondered if I could continue paying for sex if I was convinced that I really had been deluding myself all this time, because one of the things that I think is so great about my apprach to this stuff is that I think its free of delusion.

Geezy Muldoon

10-24-2002, 10:28 AM

HVB:

I'd have to try you out as Monica Lewinsky first to see what you can do. That is provided you look like Christine Aguillera on crack.

If that works out, I might consider Secretary of the Interior or something like that. I couldn't let you create too much trouble. Bad for my image.

JC

h. von bingen

10-24-2002, 10:32 AM

trip you up. (i'd dose yr coffee importing tariff). truth be told, i've alway had my eye on head of the joint chiefs or the chief's joint. let's talk, have yr people phone my people.

hs, hs, put a call into the judge's assistant, jl, and have her set up lunch at the club,
or dinner at wild wild west,
hvb

justme

10-24-2002, 10:55 AM

Ah yes, sorry, I forgot about that listening thing.

pswope

10-24-2002, 11:06 AM

There is authority* that would support the invitation I recieved from a working girl for Sunday afternoon dinner with Grandma consisting of Smothered Steak,collards,and black eyed peas,as constituting a piercing of the void.

* Katz v Katz 345 NYS2nd 1 (2nd Dept 1979),wherein a john had noodle kugel at a prostitues apartment prior to having commercial sex. Judge Altman, recognized this to be an extra marital affair and not just a zipless fuck.

note: I hereby self-enjoin myself from any other future obnoxious cutesy legal allusions and ask that all others join in this

Geezy Muldoon

10-24-2002, 11:11 AM

JM:

You seem to forget that women have been practicing deferring to men and seeming to support them in their widely varied moments of childish self-importance and vanity for 100,000 years.

That skill coupled with their own Void is what makes male-female commercial sex work.

Get over yourself. You are deluding yourself.

Learn to play with the delusion.

Have more fun.

Smoke a cigar.

How many different characters in you are there?

Experiment.

Welcome to Wonderland.

JC

h. von bingen

10-24-2002, 11:11 AM

is yr discipline so weak that you have to "self-enjoin yourself"? couldn't you just one or the other? don't restrain yourself so tightly -- i order it!

mistress von bingen,
dominatrix lexicus

Geezy Muldoon

10-24-2002, 11:13 AM

PS:

You're a funny guy. I'd bare my breasts and weep for you publicly if I were a prostitute.
Afterwards, we'd go to Grandmas.

Best, etc.

JC

justme

10-24-2002, 11:22 AM

Swope gets high-5's for dinner at grandmas and I get 'delusional'.

Geezy Muldoon

10-24-2002, 11:30 AM

And weeps too.

(Fuck it, I'm a sucker for smart guys.)

h. von bingen

10-24-2002, 11:54 AM

right Judge-O? (thinking about yr big buck story.) he would never deign to rule me witty . . . he aint humble enuf. o too bad (i do love a boy in a dress).

that black peignoir you wear on the bench is smashing dear,
do you wear garters under that robe?
hvb

justme

10-24-2002, 11:55 AM

I thought it was self-depricating ironic humor?

Damn.

occasionalhobbyist

10-24-2002, 12:10 PM

Judge:

What pierced the void of silence? Are you down to 195? You must be svelte.
--
All:

I think we've wandered pretty fucking far off the god-damned track. I don't know what the fuck Ww was talking about with his little lecture on people who give their lives for others. I know of one such fellow, and most of the stories surrounding Him border on the mythic, so...

People are selfish, self-absorbed, self-involved and self-deluding. "Real Love", if we define it as some rarified state of bliss in which perfect harmony is acheived and nothing gets messy around the hearts involved, is never achieved here on earth. That, my friends, is messy love.

So, we fall into messy love and we work on it the rest of our lives. If a major factor in our approach to life is a self-image that includes the notion that our SOs would never want or need anyone else sexually, then this version of messy love would definitely not work in the context of pro/john relationships. (And perish the day when the person who has this view of real love comes home and finds their SO pounding headboards with the family doctor...)

But, why must this be the only version of messy love? Crater's so fucking obsessed with everyone's masks that he disallow the possibility that one could occasionally take the mask off. (Or accidentally leave it at home.) Yes, I know, ONLY YOU can pierce the Void. Blah-blah. (Only you can prevent forest fires...)

Let me give the following example for discussion purposes (purely fictional, of course):

I cheat on my wife with a whore. When caught, I tell my wife that it was meaningless, it was just about the sex. My wife says, did you love her. I say, no. We curl up in bed for four days with the lights out and the shades down as she thinks about the plausibility of this statement. Ultimately she decides we can still remain married to one another.

That's a pretty extraordinary turn of events. (supposing for a moment that this fiction is analogous to reality.)

How different would it be, conceptually, to be married to someone, know that they were a whore, know that they slept with men but that it did not "mean" what it means in the context of messy love? Could she apply the same logic to the john? Could they fall in messy love with each other?

Of course they COULD. So it IS possible. Not my version of messy love. Not why I hobby. But as the example of two pro's married to their pimp (or whatever), just because it's a bad idea doesn't mean it doesn't happen (which is the very definition of "possible")

I don't understand why this prompts so much discussion. Seems a pretty open and shut case.

By the way, slinky used "congruent" for only the second time in the history of UG. That's a 15-yard penalty, third down.

pswope

10-24-2002, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by Judge Crater
PS:

You're a funny guy. I'd bare my breasts and weep for you publicly if I were a prostitute.
Afterwards, we'd go to Grandmas.

Best, etc.

JC

Dinner postponed on account of the fact that she met a wealthy lurker from UG,who's paying to take her away for a couple of days.

Love waits for money anytime. Put your breasts away.

justme

10-24-2002, 12:16 PM

OH - Worse, he used it the first time, too.

New thread? Words used by only one poster.

Space

10-24-2002, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by Judge Crater
JM:

You seem to forget that women have been practicing deferring to men and seeming to support them in their widely varied moments of childish self-importance and vanity for 100,000 years.

That skill coupled with their own Void is what makes male-female commercial sex work.

In all fairness we should note that men do the same kind of twisting of their thoughts to conform with their SOs when it's important enough. Different people have different degrees of "important enough" of course.

In the abstract, I'm not interested in "piercing voids," or in trying to get to know the real woman behind the provider. In that post-coital glow though it's very tempting to want that gorgeous and sexy woman you're naked in bed with to dig you. But I believe in respecting boundaries just like in BDSM, and I think it's rude to push for something someone doesn't want to give. If she wants me to know her, she'll do it herself.

What I do like to know though is what I can do to actually turn her on. I don't feel very sexy myself if I can't adapt in some way to the other person's tastes. And I don't mean her preconception of what my preconceptions are -- though I'm sure that's what I get as "feedback" 9/10 times.

Wwanderer

10-24-2002, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by paulus

1 - You have a certain sequence and logical orderliness in your thinking which I admire and respect.

2 - Hence I suppose you have somehow defined and clarified at least in your own mind how your hobbying over so many years harmoniously fit together with the above statement? Differently put if your marriage is so complete why do you need prostitutes? Am I missing something?

1 - Thanks for the complement, as you noted in another thread they mean more coming from some than others, so double thanks.

2 - A good question, delicately put. I do not fully trust my perceptions of myself, but I understand two answers: First, I try to embrace as many and diverse a set of life's possible experiences as I can, to get in and wallow around in it as I have described it before. Not just in the context of Hobby, I have experienced life very broadly and have rarely passed up opportunities to try anything new that sounded fun or even interesting. Second, and probably more profoundly, I find myself too much in my wife's power, too anxious to please her and stay on her good side, in aspects of our relationship that have nothing to do with sex or romance when she is my one and only source of female affection, physical and emotional. Nearly all deep relationships have aspects of power/control struggle; women instinctively use the leverage supplied by our little heads to our advantage, and men often instinctively encourage them to do so. Commercial sex buys a degree of freedom. (Of course, if JC is right, I am mistaken about my motivations since they are not the CitV approved ones.)

Finally, I would note that my description of my marriage should not be read to claim that it is anything like perfect or wonderful. My wife is both the person who has made me the happiest and the most unhappy during my life.

-Ww

Wwanderer

10-24-2002, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by justlooking

1 - With all due respect, Wwanderer, I think you're setting up a straw man here.

2 - I don't think the "cynics" in this discussion are saying what you say they're saying. I don't think most of us are denying the possibility of "real love" (whatever, as you point out, that is) between prostitutes and johns. I think what we're saying is instead encapsulated in the following two quotations:

1 - Gee, I seem to be getting a lot of respect today! I agree that it does sound like a straw man; that is because it is so manifestly absurd and unrealistic. However, the ones I am disagreeing with are just precisely those who want to insist on absolute statements that apply to everyone, everywhere and all the time. Kimmie started out this thread with just such a claim, though very sensibly pointing out that it was just her opinion. JC seems to feel that it is about as solid the law of gravity (with himself in the role of Newton!). Others have agreed.

2 - I fully agree (with you and the majority probably) that "real love" relationships between providers and clients are rare and that it is perhaps unwise to get involved in them, that there is far more potential for pain than gain, etc. However, that is far different from it being impossible. Note that relationships between men and women of very different ages, social/financial standing, cultural backgrounds, educational levels, personality types, religions, races, recreational interests, ... are also to some degree or another "bad bets", sure to encounter extra problems, unlikely to succeed in the end and perhaps unwise to even try. I'd put provider-client relationships somewhere in that continuum, difficult but not impossible.

-Ww

Wwanderer

10-24-2002, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by occasionalhobbyist

1 - I don't know what the fuck Ww was talking about with his little lecture on people who give their lives for others. I know of one such fellow, and most of the stories surrounding Him border on the mythic, so...

2 - But, why must this be the only version of messy love? Crater's so fucking obsessed with everyone's masks that he disallow the possibility that one could occasionally take the mask off. (Or accidentally leave it at home.) Yes, I know, ONLY YOU can pierce the Void. Blah-blah. (Only you can prevent forest fires...)

1 - I was thinking more of the soldier throwing himself onto the grenade to save his buddies, the firemen rushing into the burning collapsing building, the doctors flying across the world to treat Ebola patients, ... It is so common that it is a dull cliche. My point was that it is a little difficult for me to believe that while some people are capable of doing such things, no one is capable of, say, respecting a person they met in a clilent-provider encounter or of ever getting past that way of dealing with the other person. The "cynics" vastly underestimate people, perhaps because they do not wish to believe that anyone could do something that they themselves could not.

2 - Right, it reminds me of a haiku:

"Toshidoshi ya
saru ni kisetaru
saru no men."
- Basho 1694

-Ww