The death of any illusions about my sanity [Archive]

Thorn

04-08-2003, 12:47 AM

In my mis-spent youth and into my curent middle age I can safely say that I have been on good speaking terms, respectful terms, and yes - even friendly terms, with a handful of well spoken and intelligent women who just happened to enhance their income via sexual favors.

I have not had a romantic relationship with any.

Why?

Because I thought too much of them to subject them to a situation that I knew would likily be unhealthy for them [let alone me].

I don't have a jealous bone in my body. I have been involved in relationships where both I and my lover shared our physical beings, with mutual consent, with others outside our loving relathionship. So it isn't about that.

It *is* my understanding about the nature of co-dependency and the dynamic that, while not suggesting it always is the case, is statistically likily to be involved.

I am a firm believer in riciprocal respect and a willingness to build trust being BIG positives in mutually satisfying encounters between providers and their clients. I still think that a "loving" relationship, while either or both are still client and provider, is asking for problems.

h. von bingen

04-08-2003, 02:27 AM

i have a little secret oo wa oo. promise not to tell? i've seen u sing. no disrespect intended, i thought u would suck,* but u were GREAT. (i feel like we're related as you, ahem, know my man -- hombre . . . he's retired now. apparently my blowjobs have caused his fists to remain in a permanently clenched position and he can no longer type.)

you know a, i could really give yr drummer a pounding -- the one with the big drum strapped to his . . . ah well. and as for u, i'd shower u with human body parts and build u a four poster bed of donald rumsfeld's bones. promise to come and see u again soon.

o yeah, i forgot. 2 be me:
1. get the prettiest girls. 2. talk back alot. 3. be smarter than all the boys. 4. be the best lay they know. 5. don't take any bullshit. 6. make men (and certain snobby rich girlz) mad by being 1-5. 7. take a pounding from them. 8. cry and fall down. 9. get up. 10. repeat. (and few last things: stay in school and do works of mercy/works of charity and hit mass 3x a week)

stage door sally,
hvb

*not that u would suck, but you know after 20 years of going to see "great" bands at downtown dives, one does become a little skeptical. not every band is television.

hilly, are u a poster?
hvb

oddfellow4870

04-08-2003, 02:56 AM

Originally posted by justme

last year I had the most functional, healthy relationship of my life with a woman that I first met while employing her service as a prostitute..

All my most healthy and functional relationships have been with prostitutes.

Will you try to repeat this event?

Cloud Nine

04-08-2003, 03:47 AM

Originally posted by justme
in the last year I had the most functional, healthy relationship of my life with a woman that I first met while employing her service as a prostitute.

I, too, have had a functional healthy relationship with a prostitute.

I paid her some $$, she gave me some sex, and I went home.

It was functional as it got my rocks off.
It was healthy as we used a condom and I didnt get a STD.

What more could you ask for?

Cloud Nine

04-08-2003, 03:48 AM

Originally posted by justme
I will answer any question that I feel isn't inapporpriate.

Was it Kimmie?

(Oh wait, that wouldn't be a healthy relationship...)

Cloud Nine

04-08-2003, 03:49 AM

Originally posted by justme
I will answer any question that I feel isn't inapporpriate.

Can I have her phone number for when I go to Houston next year?

pswope

04-08-2003, 03:59 AM

jm

You are the most self-aware integrated person under 30, I have ever encountered*(in fact,if youwere not so hard on yourself, you'd be fully integrated). Thus, it comes as no surprise that you were able accomplish the difficult,but not impossible feat of making a relationship like yours work.**

Thus, the more interesting question is what caused the termination of the relationship?

* If I don't proselytize her to full lesbianism, I still expect you to court L'il Swope in 10 years.

** Somewhere, Frog (the author of the Quantuum Theory of Commercial Sex) is smiling

Geezy Muldoon

04-08-2003, 04:05 AM

Please describe the details of this relationship so that I may understand in what particulars it was functional and healthy.

pswope

04-08-2003, 04:12 AM

Judge

After he does that,please adivse whether any inter-gender relationship of extended length, is substantially functional & healthy?

(I'm not being disrepectful,just trying to start a Socratic dialogue,since we're in re-run season)

oddfellow4870

04-08-2003, 04:34 AM

Originally posted by pswope
Judge

Please adivse whether any inter-gender relationship of extended length, is substantially functional & healthy?

Ditto

Sex worker relationships are functional because they do what's needed. The exchange is clear. Each gets what they want.

elliot16

04-08-2003, 05:29 AM

Originally posted by Judge Crater
Please describe the details of this relationship so that I may understand in what particulars it was functional and healthy.

At risk of sounding like JM (not that there's anything wrong with that) "DITTO!"

pjorourke

04-08-2003, 05:56 AM

Originally posted by pswope
** Somewhere, Frog (the author of the Quantuum Theory of Commercial Sex) is smiling

Could someone fill me in on what exactly is Frog's Quantuum Theory of Commercial Sex?

Happy Hooker

04-08-2003, 06:02 AM

Originally posted by h. von bingen
o yeah, i forgot. 2 be me:
1. get the prettiest girls. 2. talk back alot. 3. be smarter than all the boys. 4. be the best lay they know. 5. don't take any bullshit. 6. make men (and certain snobby rich girlz) mad by being 1-5. 7. take a pounding from them. 8. cry and fall down. 9. get up. 10. repeat. (and few last things: stay in school and do works of mercy/works of charity and hit mass 3x a week)

I dont know abot ana, but I just took notes, Thanks.

Geezy Muldoon

04-08-2003, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by pswope
Judge

After he does that,please adivse whether any inter-gender relationship of extended length, is substantially functional & healthy?

(I'm not being disrepectful,just trying to start a Socratic dialogue,since we're in re-run season)

PS:

Each person has a series of lessons they must learn in life to find contentment within themselves. IMHO, a substantially functional, healthy relationship is one which moves you along towards that goal.

I disagree with you about Frog's Continuum Theory. He didn't have as many facts at his disposal. He hadn't contemplated the many faces of sex within himself; nor had he contemplated the Void.

He wanted to see only the similarities between prostitutes and our mothers, sisters and daughters. He was too afraid to contemplate the differences. Like Freud, he was too busy seeing what he wanted to see about women and turned away from seeing them as they are.

Although his efforts at developing a General Theory of Commercial Sex were admirable, they were primitive - like the earliest abstract thinkers in Greece.

Now there will be an inevitable outbreak of Needy Guyism. My sessions will no longer be safe. I can't do a thing with Needy Guys when we are all sitting around afterwards in other johns' sessions. They don't take orders well and can't dance nearly as well as Stoics, Studs and Lovers. When the riff-raff start getting edgy and move in for the kill, they whimper.

I hate it when catatonics whimper.

JC

Geezy Muldoon

04-08-2003, 08:10 AM

Originally posted by fallenwoman
justme,
fuck yeah! go against the grain and enjoy! you rock and I support your free spirit wholeheartedly! I don't care why or how it ended... everything ends, it's what you gave and learned along the way that counts. you just restored my faith in human nature again.

banana fofana
xo

fw:

I'm curious. What was the largest number of johns you ever had actively thinking they were in love with you at any given time?

Best, etc.

JC

justme

04-08-2003, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by h. von bingen
and attractive boy, why shouldn't a hooker like you. did you break up with her? if so why? not catholic?

were you on vaca?
hvb

We broke up when she went home (very far away). I knew this would be the eventual end, so I can't complain. I have never dated a Catholic (the significance of my religious upbringing is far more subliminal).

I've never taken vaca. Is that like MDMA.

(I never hobby on vacation. Well, almost never)

justme

04-08-2003, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by howardnotstern
uncle

Damn straight.

(Now I've just gotta outwuss JL)

justlooking

04-08-2003, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by Judge Crater
fw:

I'm curious. What was the largest number of johns you ever had actively thinking they were in love with you at any given time?

I'll bet Inna beats her hands down.

(In case anyone doesn't know, that's a compliment to Ana.)

justme

04-08-2003, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by justlooking
Does she speak English?

Not well.

Although by the time things came to an end, our pidgeon version of English was about 85% as expressive as my everyday English. This was up from an introductory 5%.

justme

04-08-2003, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by jseah
jm broke it off because she moved into his apartment complex?

She lived with me for about five months.

justme

04-08-2003, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by Thorn
Because I thought too much of them to subject them to a situation that I knew would likily be unhealthy for them [let alone me].

I don't have a jealous bone in my body. I have been involved in relationships where both I and my lover shared our physical beings, with mutual consent, with others outside our loving relathionship. So it isn't about that.

It *is* my understanding about the nature of co-dependency and the dynamic that, while not suggesting it always is the case, is statistically likily to be involved.

I am a firm believer in riciprocal respect and a willingness to build trust being BIG positives in mutually satisfying encounters between providers and their clients. I still think that a "loving" relationship, while either or both are still client and provider, is asking for problems.

I have always been in agreement with #1, #3 and #4. As a rule, I still believe them. Should anyone think I'm advocating this kind of thing, please reread the title of the thread. I find the exprience similar to the (likely fabricated) story of the guy who suffered from debilitating migraines and deciding to end his misery with a bullet to his head, failed to kill himself but did miraculously solve the migraine problem.

Jealousy was an issue for me. She did not work while we were involved, and even then I had issues. She is not currently employed as a prostitute, nor do I think she ever will be again. If I am wrong, I'll probably take it hard, but will understand.

justme

04-08-2003, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by oddfellow4870
All my most healthy and functional relationships have been with prostitutes.

Will you try to repeat this event?

I don't have any such plans.

(Or any illusions that I was not extremely lucky)

I still maintain that prostitute / john relationships are generally a bad idea.

justme

04-08-2003, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by Cloud Nine
Was it Kimmie?

(Oh wait, that wouldn't be a healthy relationship...)

You forgot to post as JohnyK. That's obviously an inappropriate question, but the answer is 'no'.

justme

04-08-2003, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by pswope
jm

You are the most self-aware integrated person under 30, I have ever encountered*(in fact,if youwere not so hard on yourself, you'd be fully integrated). Thus, it comes as no surprise that you were able accomplish the difficult,but not impossible feat of making a relationship like yours work.**

Thus, the more interesting question is what caused the termination of the relationship?

Thanks. As I mentioned above, we broke things off when her visa exprired. I should mention that this was not the visa that she took out to work here. After I met her, she worked, returned home, and then applied for another visa with the purpose of returning to me.

However, even without geopolitical barriers, I doubt the relationship could have been permanent. For one thing, she maintained thatshe wanted to eventually marry and have children, but that she could never marry someone that knew she had worked as a prostitute*. For another, she slurped her soup (sfsf).

Actually, part of why I think the relationship was so healthy was both of our acknowledgement and acceptence of it's inherent temporality.

* - You cant imagine the relief that this inspired in my two friends that were privy to the knowledge of where I'd met her. They had written me off as doomed to K1 visa hell.

fallenwoman

04-08-2003, 10:17 AM

JC,

honestly, none. You've asked me that before, and my answer still hasn't changed:)

xo
fw

Geezy Muldoon

04-08-2003, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by justlooking
I'll bet Inna beats her hands down.

(In case anyone doesn't know, that's a compliment to Ana.)

jl:

Think there's any chance I can incite anybody to privatize Ana?

That's one of the things I'm most proud of doing vis-a-vis Inna.*

It showed the power of the internet.

And didn't cost me a cent.

JC

*Lest anybody think I'm really all that cynical, my hat is still off to the man who apparently gave Inna $28K to leave Julies. His heart (and penis) was in the right place.

PS: You're right about the compliment. Ana is a straight shooter.

Geezy Muldoon

04-08-2003, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by fallenwoman
JC,

honestly, none. You've asked me that before, and my answer still hasn't changed:)

xo
fw

fw:

I don't recall ever asking you that question.

You're response, though, is admirable, and shows that you have high standards concerning the nature of love.

Best, etc.

JC

justme

04-08-2003, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by Judge Crater
Please describe the details of this relationship so that I may understand in what particulars it was functional and healthy.

Obviously this is impossible, but I'll say a few things now (and probably more later).

We were still happy apart, but we were happier together.

Unlike every other woman I've been involved with, she would actually make things better by talking when I was getting upset.

When we compromised, it was always without subjugation.

I never felt like I had to lie to her. In fact, while with her I was compelled to be honest.

She appreciated me without really being able to assess the things that I value most in myself.

justme

04-08-2003, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by pjorourke
Could someone fill me in on what exactly is Frog's Quantuum Theory of Commercial Sex?

Frog stated that rather than existing as discrete states, commercial and non-comercial, sexual relationships could be placed on a continuum of greater impersonality, degree of quid pro quoism, and emotional involvement.

He is, of course, absolutely correct.

pjorourke

04-08-2003, 10:33 AM

So if I'm understanding this correctly, this theory is not compatible with CiTV where commercial and non commercial sex exist as distincly different states -- one taking place in The Void, the other outside it.

justme

04-08-2003, 10:37 AM

That's always been my reading of it.

(We are surrounded by void. Matter is fairly dense so most of reality, including our own bodies, is empty. I'm not sure why I felt the need to post that.)

justlooking

04-08-2003, 10:38 AM

[unnecessary]

Rust

04-08-2003, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by Judge Crater
*Lest anybody think I'm really all that cynical, my hat is still off to the man who apparently gave Inna $28K to leave Julies. His heart (and penis) was in the right place.

Is your hat really off to him JC? Anyone who had a 5 minute conversation with her using his larger head would realize that she wasn't going to b school. All that large donation gave her was the ability to see less customers a week as a 1k an hour prostitute, instead of a 100 bucks an hour at Julie's.

justme

04-08-2003, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by justme
Not well.

Although by the time things came to an end, our pidgeon version of English was about 85% as expressive as my everyday English. This was up from an introductory 5%.

The joke among my friends remains that I either have to involve myself with more women that can't understand what I'm telling them or just not talk.

justme

04-08-2003, 10:42 AM

Holey Shit! Rust still reads this board?

(Any humiliation that I might eventually derive from this thread is mitigated by seeing a Rust post. How's school?)

justlooking

04-08-2003, 10:45 AM

You believe Rust is going to school?

Geezy Muldoon

04-08-2003, 10:48 AM

PJ:

Nope. It is a central tenet of CiTV that non-commercial sex can be every bit as alienated as commercial sex. Witness the relationships of Jean and Catherine with Bob and Herb in Mrs. Chong's Debut.

These couples weren't taking each other anywhere by way of emotional and spiritual development. They all constructively abandoned each other while continuing to live together.

JM:

I think CiTV is the superior theory due to its greater grasp of the underlying facts. Johns who play the Lover character or Charmer characters only think they've established a connection.

I'm curious. How could this woman you write about have appreciated you without understanding what you value most in yourself?

Other aspects of the relationship seem worthy. The honesty, ability to compromise without dominating each other, talking to you when you were upset - That's all good stuff.

What was she most afraid of?

JC

h. von bingen

04-08-2003, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by justme
I have never dated a Catholic (the significance of my religious upbringing is far more subliminal).

1. what does this mean?

Originally posted by justme
I've never taken vaca. Is that like MDMA.

(I never hobby on vacation. Well, almost never)

i don't know; what's mdma like? i think they called it mda in my day.

since i know that drugs are yr hobby:

i've taken significant amounts of the following: pot, angel dust, barbituates, quaaludes, let me say that again i did so many, quaaludes, every other manner of muscle relaxer and downer manufactured here or abroad (bootleg and real), valium (and any tranq i could get my hands on), percosets (and its subsets), freebase, crack, heroin, opium (and its other derivatives), lsd, peyote (and other varieties of hallucenigenic mushrooms), mescaline, but never ecstacy -- i'm too old.

(hombre can't believe it, having a pretty good love affair with the stuff himself. but, he's a fair bit younger than me.) i gave up drugs RIGHT before i started constantly hearing it called x (1983-4?). btw, the only thing i've ever had a problem with is: wine, cocktails and cigarettes. everything else just faded away. truth be told, i do get a yen for heroin every now and then, but just on very stressful days.

i wasn't asking whether u see providers on vacation. i was asking whether u were on vacation owing to the fact that there had been a quiet period b/f yr true confession.

o, btw, re: yr true confession. u can meet people in the funniest places. why should it matter that u met her while she was working? although, if the affair had a built-in in limit wrt duration, i wonder whether u weren't just dicking around w/yrself anyway.

i don't think living w/a hooker is really subject to as much social oppobrium as people think. if it was, why would so many books and movies use it as a plot device?

r u lonely tonight?
hvb

Rust

04-08-2003, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by justme
Holey Shit! Rust still reads this board?

(Any humiliation that I might eventually derive from this thread is mitigated by seeing a Rust post. How's school?)

Sometimes.

And I'm sure any humiliation you may feel, I've already gone through a few times over.

Difficult.

justme

04-08-2003, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by justlooking
You believe Rust is going to school?

I want my 28 large back.

Geezy Muldoon

04-08-2003, 10:51 AM

Rust:

The man meant well even if his expectations did not pan out.

JC

justme

04-08-2003, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by Judge Crater
I think CiTV is the superior theory due to its greater grasp of the underlying facts. Johns who play the Lover character or Charmer characters only think they've established a connection.

I'm curious. How could this woman you write about have appreciated you without understanding what you value most in yourself?

Other aspects of the relationship seem worthy. The honesty, ability to compromise without dominating each other, talking to you when you were upset - That's all good stuff.

What was she most afraid of?

I like CiTV because it very precisely does define the roles that are almost always assumed in commercial sex. I like some aspects of free market capitalism and some aspects of socialism. frog's theory get's to be absolutely right mostly by not claiming so much.

Ah, she understood it, but couldn't evaluate it, and ultimately thought that it wasn't as important. She's probably right, but my self esteem is too tied up with my self perception to deal with that at the moment.

She was/is most afraid of her mother.

justlooking

04-08-2003, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by Judge Crater
The man meant well . . . .

Oh come on.

(Unless it was you, in which case I apologize.)

h. von bingen

04-08-2003, 10:56 AM

justlooking

04-08-2003, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by justme
She was/is most afraid of her mother.

Have you ever met anyone of whom that isn't true?

(Slinkybender's response: Sure. Most of us have never met her mother.)

Geezy Muldoon

04-08-2003, 11:05 AM

jm:

The essential presumptiousness and vanity of being a john is not comprehended in Frog's theory. A man remains blind to himself if he thinks it can describe reality.

We can never make prostitutes our beloved, servant girl, admirerer, nurse, etc. They only pretend to be what it is that we want them to be because it earns them money and gives them a feeling of power.

Did you tell her what you were most afraid of?

jl:

I can only hope. It wasn't me.

h. von bingen

04-08-2003, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by justme
Not well.

Although by the time things came to an end, our pidgeon version of English was about 85% as expressive as my everyday English. This was up from an introductory 5%.

but given one of YOUR opening lines is something like:

If x = 21/2 were rational, there would exist a quantity s commensurable both with 1 and x: 1 = sn and x = sm. (It's the same as assuming that x = m/n and taking s = 1/n.) The same will be true of their difference x -1, which is smaller than x.

what percentage of yr everyday english is as expressive as say crater's?

squared,
hvb

h. von bingen

04-08-2003, 11:14 AM

re: jm's girl's mother

Originally posted by justlooking
Have you ever met anyone of whom that isn't true?.)

judging by the outcome, even I am afraid of your mother.

a woman who says oy,
hvb

Wwanderer

04-08-2003, 11:24 AM

I thought I had said all I had to say on this topic (several time over), but here is a minor addition:

I see JC's theory as analogus to classical physics: beautiful, elegant, intuitive (once you get used to it), useful and convincing, but not actually true at a fundamental level. Frog's theory (which I have never read, btw) is perhaps well named in that it is analogus to modern/quantum physics: confusing, complex, unintuitive, often irrelevant, difficult to utilize in practise, but with the important virtue of being true (or at least more nearly so).

-Ww

Geezy Muldoon

04-08-2003, 12:35 PM

At the risk of being tedious (that's never stopped any of us before), what men dislike about the CiTV theory is that it cuts their balls off by making their presumptiousness and vanity irrelevant.

You've got to have a huge set of balls to keep hobbying after you "get" CitV. Most men's balls aren't that big.

Men prefer the comforts of Frog's theory*. That theory allows men to think that women they are paying to have sex with them will have the feelings and perceptions which the men want and need them to have in order to be believable to themselves.

But that's not respectful, and it doesn't describe reality.

I've banged 3 or 4 women a day on successive days. I sorted them and handled them by type just as prostitutes sort and handle johns.

I recycled them just as the prostitute in Mrs. Chong's Debut recycles her johns.

If there are any exceptions to CitV, they are so exceedingly rare as to not be worth talking about.

Without further questions being answered, I am still not convinced by jm's story.

*Prostitutes like Frog's theory for different reasons. It keeps men capable of belief and thus malleable.

justme

04-08-2003, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by h. von bingen
1. what does this mean?

i don't know; what's mdma like? i think they called it mda in my day.

since i know that drugs are yr hobby:

i wasn't asking whether u see providers on vacation. i was asking whether u were on vacation owing to the fact that there had been a quiet period b/f yr true confession.

o, btw, re: yr true confession. u can meet people in the funniest places. why should it matter that u met her while she was working? although, if the affair had a built-in in limit wrt duration, i wonder whether u weren't just dicking around w/yrself anyway.

i don't think living w/a hooker is really subject to as much social oppobrium as people think. if it was, why would so many books and movies use it as a plot device?

r u lonely tonight?
hvb

I did say any question. And I meant it.

-------------------------

The influence of Catholicism on my life is more subtle than my having to marry a Catholic woman.

Perhaps more to the point, I do not believe that Jeses Christ was the son of God and died on the cross to seek forgiveness for our sins and that the path to eternal life with God lies in accepting Jesus as my savior and therefore living by his teachings.

I do think Catholicism is a rather pretty religion (or at least before Paul got ahold of it). I also like the idea of redemption through forgiveness (reconciliation) and love. Furthermore, I admire the degree of scholarly Catholic persuit. It's incredibly well developed in its theology (something most Protestants throw away... shame).

Obviously, subjection to dogma will change you, and when the dogma is a seriously weird as Catholic (transubstantiation?) then it'll probably change you in a weird way.

Hmm... although I don't believe any of the mythos, I did think long and hard before chosing my name saint (the angel Michael, I figure I need all the help I can get), I won't eat the host unless I'm reconciled, and I do pray (I am, ultimately, a deist which the more mathematical part of my brain still sjakes its head at) when I can't think of anything else to do.

I'm not really sure how else to phrase it.

----------------------

I believe MDMA is what they made after one of the organic precursors to MDA was made widely unavailable. I believe they are chemically similar. But I never really got into the science of the stuff.

Drugs aren't my hobby, although I did used to take a lot of them (not as many as you (but close), but only one of us was tempered by 'Just say No')

---------------------

My sojourn from the board was prompted by family matters. I thought you were asking if I had been involved with her while on vacation (which implied a point that you made later in your post)

---------------------

Why should it matter how I met her? I subscribe to the theory that the prostitue / john dynamic is so charged with false pretense, dishonesty, dysfunction, and mutual exploitation that it is (all but) impossible to convert that into a healthy relationship.

The dicking myself around point is one that I've wondered at before (and was what I thought you were implying with the vacation coment). I've decided, no. I can't think of a way to express my line of thinking on this subject right now. I imagine it's akin to the how do you know what love is? Or even more accurately, How do you know you aren't deluding yourself?

---------------------

If it weren't remarkable, why would so many books and movies use it as a plot device?

(Those books and movies generally go out of their way to de-emphasize the prostitution in the prostitute's life, or worse, to hold it as a the counterforce to some set of redeaming qualities).

And she was not a hooker when I was with her. She was an ex-hooker.

---------------------

I am lonely in a way that can only be felt in a metropolis, when you are surrounded by friends and family that care about and love you. Such loneliness, I think, is a hallmark of modernity and its increased individuality and isolation. The Japanese cinimatic tradition is brilliant at capturing this.

Yes, I do miss her.

justme

04-08-2003, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by justlooking
Have you ever met anyone of whom that isn't true?

(Slinkybender's response: Sure. Most of us have never met her mother.)

I am not afraid of my mother. I am positively terrified of hurting her. (The thought of her pain in general is enough to make me catatonic).

I am afraid of my father. But so is everyone that meets him.

howardnotstern

04-08-2003, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by justme
She is not currently employed as a prostitute, nor do I think she ever will be again. If I am wrong, I'll probably take it hard, but will understand.
uh, yeah!
Originally posted by justme
I still maintain that prostitute / john relationships are generally a bad idea.

uh, hell yeah!

justme

04-08-2003, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by Judge Crater
The essential presumptiousness and vanity of being a john is not comprehended in Frog's theory. A man remains blind to himself if he thinks it can describe reality.

We can never make prostitutes our beloved, servant girl, admirerer, nurse, etc. They only pretend to be what it is that we want them to be because it earns them money and gives them a feeling of power.

Did you tell her what you were most afraid of?

jl:

I can only hope. It wasn't me.

frog's theory is independant of any vanity of johns. It does not claim to describe every aspect of commercial sex. It merely attempts to place commercial sex within a certain context.

That vanity you describe in johns occurs in any man who lacks the maturity to be independant, allow for his significant other to be independant, and still feel love.

I told her what I think I am most afraid of.

(I initially read your comment to JL without the '.' It's funny how much that edit would change the meaning)

justme

04-08-2003, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by h. von bingen
If x = 21/2 were rational, there would exist a quantity s commensurable both with 1 and x: 1 = sn and x = sm. (It's the same as assuming that x = m/n and taking s = 1/n.) The same will be true of their difference x -1, which is smaller than x.

what percentage of yr everyday english is as expressive as say crater's?

squared,
hvb

Your intial statement is trivialy true as the conditional is everywhere false.

If I am Batman than HvB is a genius.

The English I use is the English that good sense dictates I use. My knowledge of dialects far supercedes the set that I use on this board. I am as comfortable and comprehensible talking to Dr. Roger Penrose as I am talking to Clarence Brown.

She is a bright woman, and she picked up a lot of English, but I am confident that my ability to adapt to (presumably) Korean grammar patterns played a large role in our mutual comprehension.

I did teach her the words, ironic, cynical, and solipsism.

Slinky Bender

04-08-2003, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by justme
Not well.

Although by the time things came to an end, our pidgeon version of English was about 85% as expressive as my everyday English. This was up from an introductory 5%.

Isn't it funny speaking Pidgin English just because the person you're speking to does? Did you also talk with an accent? (and don't say "I always talk with an accent").

h. von bingen

04-08-2003, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by justme

I do think Catholicism is a rather pretty religion (or at least before Paul got ahold of it). I also like the idea of redemption through forgiveness (reconciliation) and love. Furthermore, I admire the degree of scholarly Catholic persuit. It's incredibly well developed in its theology (something most Protestants throw away... shame).

----------------------

but only one of us was tempered by 'Just say No')

---------------------

I've decided, no. I can't think of a way to express my line of thinking on this subject right now. I imagine it's akin to the how do you know what love is? Or even more accurately, How do you know you aren't deluding yourself?

---------------------

(Those books and movies generally go out of their way to de-emphasize the prostitution in the prostitute's life, or worse, to hold it as a the counterforce to some set of redeaming qualities).

And she was not a hooker when I was with her. She was an ex-hooker.

---------------------

I am lonely in a way that can only be felt in a metropolis, when you are surrounded by friends and family that care about and love you. Such loneliness, I think, is a hallmark of modernity and its increased individuality and isolation. The Japanese cinimatic tradition is brilliant at capturing this.

Yes, I do miss her.

1. the prettiest. unfortunately, for us, faith won't get u there. we gotta have FAITH and WORKS (results in alotta scholarly product). here's my judeo-christian in a nutshell: judiasm -- works-- ie the law, protestantism -- faith -- luther, catholicism -- faith and works -- pick 'em. i'm in the market for a religion that requires neither faith nor works -- buddhism? but ain't really a religion, its a PHILOSOPHY. what i like about catholocism is that it's a death sentence see e.g. maughm or greene.

2. i'm too old for just say no. moreover, i've barely ever said no to anything.

3. i'm just saying, like girls who go out with bad boys. commitmentphobes have an easier time committing to the uncommittable.

4. yr right. i thought u met her during commercial sex. if not what's the beef? we all have jobs which we'd rather not have done. can anyone say arthur treacher's fish and chips?

5. welcome to adulthood. it gets worse. eventually loneliness is not inchoate angst, but rather the actual absence of yr dead friends. no matter you never saw them in yr busy busy life in the big city.

i'm sorry u miss her. u know me VERY ROMANTIC, go get her and start a life together. if it gets fucked up, no regrets.

u've been very brave.
hvb

Geezy Muldoon

04-08-2003, 01:08 PM

The reason I am so adamant about all this is that I have very high standards about inter-personal relationships.

I also believe very strongly in the curative and redemptive powers of good, functioning, healthy inter-personal relationships.

As strange as this may sound coming from me, I believe in love.

justlooking

04-08-2003, 01:11 PM

I thought it was justme met her as a prostitute, but she was an ex-prostitute when they were involved.

h. von bingen

04-08-2003, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by justme
I am as comfortable and comprehensible talking to Dr. Roger Penrose as I am talking to Clarence Brown.

i was teasing u. i guess yr knowledge of dialectics supercedes yr sense of humor (and as u know, i am NEVER comfortable or comprehensible).

stoned seoul picnic,
hvb

justme

04-08-2003, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by howardnotstern
uh, yeah!
uh, hell yeah!

Just because I'm crazy, it don't mean I've lost my damned mind.

I think of you every time I think of her ever prostituting herself again.

Here is a probably relevant fact:

As saw her for a very long time as a customer. I never suggested to her that she should stop prostituting herself for me. I did (once) tell her that I thought that she was causing herself harm, and that that harm would only increase the longer she stayed. She continued to be a prostitute for no shorter time than she had intended when she first arrived in the United States. Moreover, I am fairly certain that when she decided to work here, she only intended to stay for six months. Finally, I am positive that she was surprised by how difficult it was to be a prostitute. I am fairly certain I have little to do with her decisions regarding prostitution.

On the other hand, when she saw it was important to me (much later, when we were living together) she did promise not to do it again. Of course, at the time I felt like she was making the type of promise that easy to make since you had already resolved yourself to do it anyway.

h. von bingen

04-08-2003, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by justme
Finally, I am positive that she was surprised by how difficult it was to be a prostitute.

is this a common realization? for me, it always seemed to be too difficult to even contemplate as a career option. i mean it's a lot of work, though not nearly as much, it seems, as clean stripping.

jobsearch,
hvb

justlooking

04-08-2003, 01:18 PM

It's certainly more honest.

justme

04-08-2003, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by slinkybender
Isn't it funny speaking Pidgin English just because the person you're speking to does? Did you also talk with an accent? (and don't say "I always talk with an accent").

Don't you love the way we all try to anticipate how we will be smart asses. (seriously, I think it's cool)

I didn't talk with an accent, but I did adopt misuse of English (she would substitute gerunds for past participles and would often tell me how boring I sounded).

I'm generally a follower of descriptive linguistics.

We learned and developed our language at roughly the same pace. I had the advantage of vocabulary (although some words and phrases, ka ja, ha ji ma, yo bo se yo, po go ship oy yo and others were in Korean), but I was content to let grammar develop as it would.

justlooking

04-08-2003, 01:30 PM

And I'd have thought from your writings that you were more a follower of transformational-generative grammar.

Wwanderer

04-08-2003, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by Judge Crater
As strange as this may sound coming from me, I believe in love.

Which of course points to the comforting part of CitV theory; it protects love from commercial sex. And conversely to the troubling/uncomfortable aspect of Frog's theory (well...of my guess at what Frog's theory says).

I agree with you about what is uncomfortable about CitV and comfortable about Frog's putative views.

-Ww

Wwanderer

04-08-2003, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by justme
I am as comfortable and comprehensible talking to Dr. Roger Penrose as I am talking to Clarence Brown.

I believe that Roger prefers Professor if you are going to use titles.

-Ww

PS - Who is Clarence Brown?

Slinky Bender

04-08-2003, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by justme
As I mentioned above, we broke things off when her visa exprired.

How ironic. It's susally the girl who breaks things off when the guy's Visa expires (ok, gets overdrawn).

justlooking

04-08-2003, 01:51 PM

Yeah, but as hvb has pointed out, all we whoreboard posters are feminized.

h. von bingen

04-08-2003, 01:57 PM

witty riposte after witty riposte. constant monitoring of major whoreboards and stripperboards. hours spent wooing clean strippers hoping they'll turn dirty. do u sleep?

plus i'm sure he's got other hobbies,
hvb

justlooking

04-08-2003, 01:58 PM

Pretty much no.

(Don't forget the billables.)

h. von bingen

04-08-2003, 02:02 PM

Originally posted by Happy Hooker
I dont know abot ana, but I just took notes, Thanks.

hey thanks, but it's too true. i hope ana wasn't scared off about by the body parts comment, i think she mentioned she has piles of bones in her apt. you know, hh, if jl is the most respected whoreboard poster in the tri-state area (hobbyist category), i think you should go for most respected in the provider category and btw there should be a swimsuit portion to the competition (you know in jl's case).

humbly pegged,
hvb

h. von bingen

04-08-2003, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by justlooking

(Don't forget the billables.)

surfing with one hand and drafting with the other. me bad. (even at that yr product is probably far superior to most. g-d u'd think i'm looking for my bonus.)

double time,
hvb

pjorourke

04-08-2003, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by slinkybender
Isn't it funny speaking Pidgin English just because the person you're speking to does?

Your comment reminds me of a rather sureal experience I once had checking into a hotel late at night after being seriously overserved at a local bar. The deskclerk was mute and had to write things down. We ended up having a 20-minute conversation without making a sound -- just passing the pad back and forth.

Fargo

04-08-2003, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by justlooking
Yeah, but as hvb has pointed out, all we whoreboard posters are feminized.

No, only Whoreboard Posters with a Candy Striper Romance Fixation.

Geezy Muldoon

04-08-2003, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Which of course points to the comforting part of CitV theory; it protects love from commercial sex.

Wwanderer:

In my mind, that was always one of CitV theory's primary purposes.

It honors the dignity of women by showing that they can't be bought or made to feel or think anything.

It also honors the dignity of women by recognizing how talented they are (some are more flexible and talented than others) at providing men with the different sorts of illusions they need to sexually function.

Women have been shining men on since the common male ancestor of all men walked the earth 60,000 years ago.

You only get to hear the truth from women who are free to challenge, disrespect, fight and need you.

That's not happening in commercial sex.

Which is but another articulation of why I think Frog's theory is a perfect crock of shit.

Best, etc.

JC

Thorn

04-08-2003, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by justme
I have always been in agreement with #1, #3 and #4. As a rule, I still believe them. Should anyone think I'm advocating this kind of thing, please reread the title of the thread. I find the exprience similar to the (likely fabricated) story of the guy who suffered from debilitating migraines and deciding to end his misery with a bullet to his head, failed to kill himself but did miraculously solve the migraine problem.

Jealousy was an issue for me. She did not work while we were involved, and even then I had issues. She is not currently employed as a prostitute, nor do I think she ever will be again. If I am wrong, I'll probably take it hard, but will understand.

Sorry to hear that the green-eyed booga-boo was a concern. Its not easy. Not easy by a long shot. And sometimes it hurts.

I do agree with J.C. regarding your seemingly [and I would think actual] well groundedness. I have always thought of you as having very little in the way of 'rose tinted specs'. Probably less then myself, even. :) [Because, while I know what I know, it hasn't kept me from making a fool of myself despite the knowing.]

It is what it is, while it is.

Thorn

04-08-2003, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by justme
That's always been my reading of it.

(We are surrounded by void. Matter is fairly dense so most of reality, including our own bodies, is empty. I'm not sure why I felt the need to post that.)

Foo.

Most of reality is about as empty as a cinder block falling from a height of 5 stories up, aimed straight at the middle of your cranium.

Yeah, there are those three holes filled with air, but its not going to keep the rest of it from caving your skull in.

drew_park

04-08-2003, 02:46 PM

The situation maybe more common than originally believed.

Almost two years ago I happened across a woman who was working as a dancer in a strip club. From my perspective she really didn't fit in. She didn't have that silicone enhanced, California hardbody that many strip afficionadoes enjoy. At the time she was trying to make end meets and was dabbling in extracurricular activities.

We met off campus a few times and it was passionately erotic. She was by no means a pro but we quickl;y achieved a bedroom compatability I had never experienced previously. I contributed fiscally to her well-being.

Over time our dates became more frequent (within reason) and we started seeing each other outside of our "dates." Sneak away lunches. Dinners. Shopping.

Over a year ago she gave up escorting (it was a bust for her anyways) - - and took on more conventional employment. But we continue to sneak off and play.

Is it a relationship. Sure. Is it meaningful. Probably not as we're noth married to other people and neither of us can afford to dump our spouses. But there is a certain personal fulfillment to a sneak away romance. A lover. Someone more than just a "pay as you go" fuck. Will it last. Unfortunately not.

Drew

Thorn

04-08-2003, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by Judge Crater
We can never make prostitutes our beloved, servant girl, admirerer, nurse, etc. They only pretend to be what it is that we want them to be because it earns them money and gives them a feeling of power.

While at the same time weakening them at the cost of other, more personal, resources. [Note to Providers: Don't get mad at that thought, the same is true for Clients as well.]

There is very little yin going on without yang.

Much like in the physical world, matter and energy are constant in their totality. They only change states.

So, very little is gained without some cost. Be it time, energy, emotional sacrific, or other resource.

Such is exactly why the nature of the client/provider symbiosis is what it is. The exchange, if allowed to be perfect, adds equal to the loss. Zero sum in totality, but what is given up is expendable and what is gained is needed.

The problem is, it is so very rarely allowed to be perfect.

BigMadM

04-08-2003, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by drew_park
The situation maybe more common than originally believed.

Almost two years ago I happened across a woman who was working as a dancer in a strip club. From my perspective she really didn't fit in. She didn't have that silicone enhanced, California hardbody that many strip afficionadoes enjoy. At the time she was trying to make end meets and was dabbling in extracurricular activities.

We met off campus a few times and it was passionately erotic. She was by no means a pro but we quickl;y achieved a bedroom compatability I had never experienced previously. I contributed fiscally to her well-being.

Over time our dates became more frequent (within reason) and we started seeing each other outside of our "dates." Sneak away lunches. Dinners. Shopping.

Over a year ago she gave up escorting (it was a bust for her anyways) - - and took on more conventional employment. But we continue to sneak off and play.

Is it a relationship. Sure. Is it meaningful. Probably not as we're noth married to other people and neither of us can afford to dump our spouses. But there is a certain personal fulfillment to a sneak away romance. A lover. Someone more than just a "pay as you go" fuck. Will it last. Unfortunately not.

Drew

Mr Park, I dont need another enemy. But I would like to address one thing here.(Im in a posting mood tonight)

Can you explain to me why you make a statement, she was by no means a pro, but.......

I have to tell you something, when they accept any form of compensation for sex, they are a pro.
If she only accepts small amounts of money, she is either an inexpensive pro, or a stupid one.
Once money is exchanged, she is a whore, and I dont care what anyone says, paid for sex is paid for sex.
ok...thats all I wanted to say.....

BigMadM

04-08-2003, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by drew_park
. I contributed fiscally to her well-being.

.

Drew

What a way to put it......I like this one.

Im sorry officer, you are mistaken. I did not offer this woman money to suck my cock. I merely contributed fiscally to her well being.

justme

04-08-2003, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by h. von bingen
1. the prettiest. unfortunately, for us, faith won't get u there. we gotta have FAITH and WORKS (results in alotta scholarly product). here's my judeo-christian in a nutshell: judiasm -- works-- ie the law, protestantism -- faith -- luther, catholicism -- faith and works -- pick 'em. i'm in the market for a religion that requires neither faith nor works -- buddhism? but ain't really a religion, its a PHILOSOPHY. what i like about catholocism is that it's a death sentence see e.g. maughm or greene.

2. i'm too old for just say no. moreover, i've barely ever said no to anything.

3. i'm just saying, like girls who go out with bad boys. commitmentphobes have an easier time committing to the uncommittable.

4. yr right. i thought u met her during commercial sex. if not what's the beef? we all have jobs which we'd rather not have done. can anyone say arthur treacher's fish and chips?

5. welcome to adulthood. it gets worse. eventually loneliness is not inchoate angst, but rather the actual absence of yr dead friends. no matter you never saw them in yr busy busy life in the big city.

i'm sorry u miss her. u know me VERY ROMANTIC, go get her and start a life together. if it gets fucked up, no regrets.

u've been very brave.
hvb

1. Yes faith and works. (accepting Jesus as my savior and therefore living by his teachings) are the paths to salvation, but God meets us halfway with love and forgiveness. Brilliant.

Buddhism is a religion (creation myth, primordial man, etc). They just do their best marketing when they ignore their Hinudist roots (and unerpinnings). Kind of like Protestants that deride ritual and mysticism that are such an important part of the history and development of Christianity (Judeo-Christianity, really... well you can even go back further than Judeo, but there's a character posting limit).

2. That's what I was trying to imply, but I was told it was impolite to call a woman, old.

3. Excpet I'm not a committmentphobe. If anything, my predisposition to codependence makes me a commitmmentphile.

4. I met her while she was a prostitute. She was an ex-prostitute when we had our relationship. The in between stuff is why I think CiTV is fundamentally flawed.

5. I'm sure. Every expression of individual identity is another step in alienation and isolation. And it's not just getting worse as we get older, it's getting worse as society does.

I miss her, but our relationship is what it is. I think it would be counterproductive to attempt to make more of this than it really is.

There is a fine line between... But that's the way I like to think about it.

pswope

04-08-2003, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by justlooking
You believe Rust is going to school?
I heard some Canadian working girl from Julies give him $28K to go to grad school but he uses it for strip bars.

Thorn

04-08-2003, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by h. von bingen
1. the prettiest. unfortunately, for us, faith won't get u there. we gotta have FAITH and WORKS

Vis-a-vie christianity you are technically incorrect.

Faith alone is redemptive. Works can be evidentiary of faith, but are not, in and of themselves, acts of faith.

Example: The sinner who, on his death bed, repents truly of his sins and asks that he be forgiven is redeemed. He offers no works as evidence of his faith. Simply his true penitent nature, his desire to seek grace, and his faith in God to provide redemption.

Example: The sinner who has no faith in God, but frequently acts in charity and performs works of good will. He offers much in the way of works, but has no belief in redemption or the grace of God. He is not redeemed and does not enter Heaven.

Conclusion: Faith alone is redemptive. Works have nothing to do with it other then being a possible outward sign of the presence of faith.

Now, Judism is a whole other ball of wax.

pswope

04-08-2003, 03:43 PM

BTW

If you got an original copy,you can see Frog in the last row on the Sgt Pepper's Lonely Heart Club Band album cover.

If you play All you need is love backwards, you'll hear Frog anticipating JC's CiTV and opining that because he wasn't hugged enough as a child he would be doomed to look for love in all the wrong places.

Love can come in vending machines....It's just more imperfect.

h. von bingen

04-08-2003, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by Thorn
Vis-a-vie christianity you are technically incorrect.

catholicism requires faith and works, luther changed all that. technically.

somebody once said, when i referred to an rc as a christian: he's no christian, he's CATHOLIC.

work work work,
hvb

justme

04-08-2003, 03:54 PM

justme

04-08-2003, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by h. von bingen
i was teasing u. i guess yr knowledge of dialectics supercedes yr sense of humor (and as u know, i am NEVER comfortable or comprehensible).

I'm sensitive about the math talk stuff, I guess.

justme

04-08-2003, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by justlooking
And I'd have thought from your writings that you were more a follower of transformational-generative grammar.

I wasn't even aware that this was a common English construction. Well, I like it, so let's just make it so.

Geezy Muldoon

04-08-2003, 03:59 PM

PS:

I actually knew one of the people on the cover of the people on the cover of Sgt. Peppers. He was a friend of Ringos and, before that, a founder of the Paris Review with George Plimpton back in the 1950s. He wrote a couple of shitty turgid novels and was insane, but was otherwise a very interesting character.

JC

justme

04-08-2003, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by Judge Crater
Wwanderer:

In my mind, that was always one of CitV theory's primary purposes.

It honors the dignity of women by showing that they can't be bought or made to feel or think anything.

It also honors the dignity of women by recognizing how talented they are (some are more flexible and talented than others) at providing men with the different sorts of illusions they need to sexually function.

Women have been shining men on since the common male ancestor of all men walked the earth 60,000 years ago.

You only get to hear the truth from women who are free to challenge, disrespect, fight and need you.

That's not happening in commercial sex.

Which is but another articulation of why I think Frog's theory is a perfect crock of shit.

Obviously men can not tear down the voids of other women. But CiTV theory strips a woman of her ability to tear down her own void. Equally limiting, in my opinion.

Frog's continuum of commercial sex theory recognizes that different women may stray from the typical erecting of a void, or even that a woman may vary her void depending on the customer.

Actually, frog's theory doesn't say anything about voids, but I bet you'd find a tremendous degree of correlation between the thickness of the void and where on the continuum the relationship lies. I think frog's theory can take CiTV and make it more flexible, and hence more universal.

Thesis -> Antithesis -> Synthesis

or something.

justme

04-08-2003, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by Wwanderer
I believe that Roger prefers Professor if you are going to use titles.

-Ww

PS - Who is Clarence Brown?

He never corrected me (we talked about infinitesimal tilings over tea). I wish he had.

Clarence "Gatemouth" Brown, southern blues musician. Old dude. I think he's awesome. He smoked his corn cob pipe and my friend's and I smoked a joint and bullshitted about his amps and guitar.

justme

04-08-2003, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by Thorn
Foo.

Most of reality is about as empty as a cinder block falling from a height of 5 stories up, aimed straight at the middle of your cranium.

Yeah, there are those three holes filled with air, but its not going to keep the rest of it from caving your skull in.

(Thorn knows my point better than me. Even though two things can be surrounded by void, they still can interact with each other in ways that will effect their behavior.)

Thorn

04-08-2003, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by justme
1. Yes faith and works. (accepting Jesus as my savior and therefore living by his teachings) are the paths to salvation, but God meets us halfway with love and forgiveness. Brilliant.

Just for the sake my own clarity I present the following: All my theology studies bring me about to this conclusion regarding christianity's predominant tenet.

Grace is obtained by the understanding that you do not belong to you. You belong to God.

You're given yourself as a gift from God with the free will to decide for yourself what you will do with yourself. Redemption is the point where you decide to give yourself back to God, with the understanding that your life is no longer your own. It is at this point, where you are working not your own plan for your life, but that of God's that one is in a state of grace. Works proceed, not as acts toward faith, but because proceeding in faith under God's plan can't help but produce works.

At least that is my understanding of it.

Geezy Muldoon

04-08-2003, 04:13 PM

jm:

I guess one of the problems with your relationship that I have is that it was with a Korean woman. In my experience, Koreans are like Brazilians, Dominicans, Chinese, Native Born Central and Eastern Europeans. They essential view themselves as servile and treat men as superior.

In recognition of this fact, I usually treat women from these cultures as my sexual servants when I am with them.

I'd have an easier time understanding your relationship if it had been with an American woman or a Western European woman. Woman in these cultures are now raised to view themselves as men's equals.

My wife tells me to eat shit and die at least a couple of times a week. This makes me mind my manners.

Did the woman you consider your lover ever favor you with blasts of her honest anger?

Constructive dealing with anger, to my way of thinking, is one of the hallmarks of a functional, healthy relationship. It never happens with prostitutes. They never take you seriously enough to get angry at you. It's one of the ways you know you're a john.

JC

Happy Hooker

04-08-2003, 04:17 PM

JM not to change the subject because I find this fascinating..but who is frog, and what is his theory?

And did JC ever have a thread about his void piercing? I recall that being a very long conversation as well..( before the FFAC thread)

I am in need of some guidance because I am falling again and need to brush up on my piercing skills.

Geezy Muldoon

04-08-2003, 04:23 PM

jm:

If Milkmaid were posting in this thread, she'd point out that a prostitute would only consider "piercing her own void" for a young, handsome, rich and possibly famous john. She would essentially thus be engaging in status climbing.

HH:

I was toying with the idea of getting my belly button pierced, but decided against it.

Thorn

04-08-2003, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by justme
(Thorn knows my point better than me. Even though two things can be surrounded by void, they still can interact with each other in ways that will effect their behavior.)

Thank you for thinking so.

Personally I don't hold with the notion of a "void". Very little, if anything, takes place within a vaccum. Even space isn't truly empty. Actually, nothing could be further from the truth.

I see existence more like a three dimensional game of snooker. The space between the moving balls may appear to be void, but in reality it is filled with vectors. These vectors determine the causual relationships between the objects in motion. Change a vector, and the relationships change. Out comes now differ, and the game is no longer quite the same as it was prior to the change.

So there is no "void", as it were, for it is filled with the potential constantly waiting to turn kinetic.

Happy Hooker

04-08-2003, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by Judge Crater
jm:

If Milkmaid were posting in this thread, she'd point out that a prostitute would only consider "piercing her own void" for a young, handsome and possibly famous john.

HH:

I was toying with the idea of getting my belly button pierced, but decided against it.

Then MM would be wrong.

The john would not have to be young, handsome, or famous to pierce my void.

He just has to look into my eyes, and see and touch my soul..

BTW I meant void piercing not belly buttons.

pjorourke

04-08-2003, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by Thorn
Vis-a-vie christianity you are technically incorrect.

Faith alone is redemptive. Works can be evidentiary of faith, but are not, in and of themselves, acts of faith.

Example: The sinner who, on his death bed, repents truly of his sins and asks that he be forgiven is redeemed. He offers no works as evidence of his faith. Simply his true penitent nature, his desire to seek grace, and his faith in God to provide redemption.

Example: The sinner who has no faith in God, but frequently acts in charity and performs works of good will. He offers much in the way of works, but has no belief in redemption or the grace of God. He is not redeemed and does not enter Heaven.

Conclusion: Faith alone is redemptive. Works have nothing to do with it other then being a possible outward sign of the presence of faith.

Now, Judism is a whole other ball of wax.

Most religions assert that they are the only true religion. They can't all be "the" true religion, thus most religions are bullshit and works alone must be redemptive. To the extent that phrase has any meaning if religion is bullshit.

h. von bingen

04-08-2003, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by Judge Crater
jm:

I guess one of the problems with your relationship that I have is that it was with a Korean woman. In my experience, Koreans are like Brazilians, Dominicans, Chinese, Native Born Central and Eastern Europeans. They essential view themselves as servile and treat men as superior.

what about east timoreans, the welsh, saskatchewanians, easter islanders and montserrats? uzbhekis? madagascans? isle of manners? fins?

around the world,
hvb

Thorn

04-08-2003, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by pjorourke
Most religions assert that they are the only true religion. They can't all be "the" true religion, thus most religions are bullshit and works alone must be redemptive. To the extent that phrase has any meaning if religion is bullshit.

Ok. But that has nothing to do with what I am saying. All I was doing was expressing a scholarly notion regarding what one particular religion's definition of what is redemptive. I wasn't commenting on what is, and isn't, "the true religion".

pjorourke

04-08-2003, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by Thorn
Ok. But that has nothing to do with what I am saying. All I was doing was expressing a scholarly notion regarding what one particular religion's definition of what is redemptive. I wasn't commenting on what is, and isn't, "the true religion".

Sorry Thorn, I wasn't trying to pick on you, just tie the thread together. My point was to observe that the logic behind most (all) religions is flawed therefore any logical conclusion drawn from the precepts of a religion is equally flawed logically.

The nice thing about beliefs is that they are exactly that. Someone can believe whatever he or she wants and be no more wrong nor right than anyone else.

justme

04-08-2003, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by Thorn
Vis-a-vie christianity you are technically incorrect.

Faith alone is redemptive. Works can be evidentiary of faith, but are not, in and of themselves, acts of faith.

Catholics don't necessarily subscribe to the 'faith only' beliefs as non-Catholics. We have a bunch of beurocratic processes (reconciliation) to go through beofre we're absolved of sin. And reconciliation only comes to those truly repentant for their sins (something independant of faith) and who address every sin. Most Catholics will probably die with unreconciled sin that will be evaluated on judgement day.

Or at least I think I got that right.

(never paid enough attention in RCIA)

justme

04-08-2003, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by h. von bingen
somebody once said, when i referred to an rc as a christian: he's no christian, he's CATHOLIC.

If there's anything that unreasonably gets on my nerve, it's new agey non-denominational Christians that insist that Catholics aren't Christians.

Makes me want to puke.

Wwanderer

04-08-2003, 05:30 PM

pjorourke

04-08-2003, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by justme
Catholics don't necessarily subscribe to the 'faith only' beliefs as non-Catholics. We have a bunch of beurocratic processes (reconciliation) to go through beofre we're absolved of sin. And reconciliation only comes to those truly repentant for their sins (something independant of faith) and who address every sin. Most Catholics will probably die with unreconciled sin that will be evaluated on judgement day. And Joseph Heller thought Catch-22 was a beaut.

justme

04-08-2003, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by Judge Crater
I guess one of the problems with your relationship that I have is that it was with a Korean woman. In my experience, Koreans are like Brazilians, Dominicans, Chinese, Native Born Central and Eastern Europeans. They essential view themselves as servile and treat men as superior.

In recognition of this fact, I usually treat women from these cultures as my sexual servants when I am with them.

I'd have an easier time understanding your relationship if it had been with an American woman or a Western European woman. Woman in these cultures are now raised to view themselves as men's equals.

My wife tells me to eat shit and die at least a couple of times a week. This makes me mind my manners.

Did the woman you consider your lover ever favor you with blasts of her honest anger?

Constructive dealing with anger, to my way of thinking, is one of the hallmarks of a functional, healthy relationship. It never happens with prostitutes. They never take you seriously enough to get angry at you. It's one of the ways you know you're a john.

Where to begin?

While we did adopt more traditional roles than I've ever had in a romantic relationship (I didn't do laundry or wash dishes for five months... spoiled me), she was hardly your servile traditional woman.

One sore point with her and her mother was her insistance that she go to college, something her mother viewed as unecessary. She had her priorities, and there were certainly things that I would have prefered to have played out different, and didn't.

(She has perfectly awful taste. I told her this many times. Still, when she wanted Taco Bell, I ate a 7 layer.)

On the other hand, my longest relationship ever (weighing in at almost five years) was with an American woman raised in a Radcliff / Harvard double PhD family whose mother was a 60's feminist originally from Boston (and who claimed to be Jewish around the high holey holidays). She was far more submissive in her dealings with me than the latest. I am naturally a fairly dominant personality. The fact that this woman was able to hold her own against me was more evidence (to me) that this was the healthiest, most functional relationship of my life.

(You're a clever man, you shouldn't litter your otherwise sanguine thoughts with such trivially stupid generalizations)

When she was angry, she'd let me know. It happened infrequently, though (much less infrequently than with other girfriends with whom I was constantly fighting). I just don't think that she deals with her anger in explosive rages. In fact, I found her way of patiently telling me what I had done to upset her, and making me understand why I had upset her, was just about the most mature, functional way of dealing with anger that I've ever seen. I tried my hardest to emulate this in return.

Keep in mind, though, we're talking about a relationship of less than half a year. If I did not get to know her in entirety, it should not be surprising. But I'm somewhat certain that my johness had any significant effect on the rate in which she became comfortable sharing her emotions with me.

justme

04-08-2003, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by Happy Hooker
JM not to change the subject because I find this fascinating..but who is frog, and what is his theory?

And did JC ever have a thread about his void piercing? I recall that being a very long conversation as well..( before the FFAC thread)

I am in need of some guidance because I am falling again and need to brush up on my piercing skills.

frog is a PMB poster from back in the day. Either he or Rust are the coolest whorehounds that I've read posts by (or at least I imagine it that way).

I explained his theory a few posts back in a response to PJOrourke. If you need me to, I'll try again.

As far as your last paragraph, I still can't recommend highly enough that prostitutes and johns avoid relationsips with each other. If you are seriously developing emotional ties to a john: RUN!

justme

04-08-2003, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by Judge Crater
If Milkmaid were posting in this thread, she'd point out that a prostitute would only consider "piercing her own void" for a young, handsome, rich and possibly famous john. She would essentially thus be engaging in status climbing.

I doubt Milkmaid would say this. And this isn't even void piercing, it's simply stakes raising.

In fact, along the lines of Kant, I'd argue that it's more likely that a prostitute has pierced her void if the john is not young, handsome, rich, and possibly famous (of which, I am barely one).

Let me ask you, why would a woman fly across the world, be away from the family that she cares about for half a year, be isolated from her culture, and take six months out of her life to be with one person with whom she knows she will not have a long term relationship?

Wwanderer

04-08-2003, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by Judge Crater

1 - Did the woman you consider your lover ever favor you with blasts of her honest anger? Constructive dealing with anger, to my way of thinking, is one of the hallmarks of a functional, healthy relationship.

2 - It never happens with prostitutes.

1 - Having given you such a hard time about the absurd paragraph with which you started that post, I should also say that I think this is a good and fair point, and a potentially good way of telling whether the void has been pierced...or at least started to wear thin. BUT...

2 - Oh yes it sure as hell does! Maybe not in your experience, though. If that is the case, I wonder why. Maybe you are just not very irritating? Maybe you always book short enough encounters that even the most hot headed ladies can control their tempers until you (or they) are out the door? Maybe it is actually you who do not take them or the relationship seriously enough to deal constructively with any anger that arises...and maybe it is because you "know" that they are just playing a character? Anyway, it is certainly not my experiece with providers.

-Ww

Wwanderer

04-08-2003, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by justme
Buddhism is a religion (creation myth, primordial man, etc). They just do their best marketing when they ignore their Hinudist roots (and unerpinnings). Kind of like Protestants that deride ritual and mysticism that are such an important part of the history and development of Christianity (Judeo-Christianity, really... well you can even go back further than Judeo, but there's a character posting limit).

The Levantine belief systems are fundamentally religions (i.e., at their core they are concerned with the relationship of people to God and spiritual matters) with trappings of philosophy and psychology. Buddhism is fundamentally concerned with philosophical and psychological matters and has trappings of a religion. This has caused a lot of confusion over the centuries. Actually, there was a considerable debate among Islamic intellectuals about whether or not Buddhism should be considered a religion when the two first encountered one another on the Indian subcontinent, and there was a more limited but somewhat similar discussion amongst Jesuits when they first encountered certain sects of Japanese Buddhists.

It can also be reasonably argued that Hindu is not properly understood as a religion in the Levantive sense but rather should be thought of as a generic term meaning "religion".

In short, mapping of cultural institutions/constructs as complex and subtle as religions (as the word is usually used) across major cultural boundaries unavoidably causes distortions and confusions.

-Ww

PS - Talking like this to a typical provider for a couple of hours will result in her expressing honest anger (most non-providers too)!

justme

04-08-2003, 06:25 PM

It always goes back to semantics.

(But I still think Buddhism is a religion)

((I'm reminded of the New Agey Christians I knew in high schhol that would insist that Christianity wasn't a religion, it was a relationship with God. That used to upset me almost as much as the Catholics not being Christian crap.))

Wwanderer

04-08-2003, 06:50 PM

It has been said that Buddhism is the only religion in which you can be sure that its god actually exists...because it is you (Cognito ergo...).

-Ww

John Blackthorne

04-08-2003, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by justme
If there's anything that unreasonably gets on my nerve, it's new agey non-denominational Christians that insist that Catholics aren't Christians.

Makes me want to puke.

It has nothing to do with the factions you cite. Fundamentalist Christians all believe Catholicism to be a false religion...and its followers to be non Christian Idol Worshipers.

I live in the South, new age does not register here.

JB

Happy Hooker

04-08-2003, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by justme
frog is a PMB poster from back in the day. Either he or Rust are the coolest whorehounds that I've read posts by (or at least I imagine it that way).

I explained his theory a few posts back in a response to PJOrourke. If you need me to, I'll try again.

As far as your last paragraph, I still can't recommend highly enough that prostitutes and johns avoid relationsips with each other. If you are seriously developing emotional ties to a john: RUN!

Oh hellls no!!! My fallin for john days are over like Happy Days reruns...

I am trying to learn how to be a john. And since part of being a john is manipulating, and using hookers to satisfy your own selfish sexual needs by piercing their voids, I figured its something I need to learn.

Theses theories really intrigue me,but I still havent been told how to find Judge Craters theories.

Damn...What ever happen to the day when you went out, hired a hooker, she blew you or lift her skirt, got you off, left, and you never saw each other again?

Reading this thread makes whoring seem so fucking complicated.

As for frogs theories, I wouldnt want you to go out of your way and post the whole thing ( but it would be nice)
:)

pswope

04-09-2003, 02:53 AM

Frog, the coolest john of the idealistic days of PMBs,built the QTCR around anecdotal evidence he amassed from cyber johns.

Although,a pragmatist himself, Frog posited that there was a line(continuum) of potential relationships in the commercial realm beginning with anonymous alienated sex a SW may have on a stroll w/ a trick and ending w/ the remote but actual possibility of a complete intimate relationship warts and all between wroking girl and john. In between were many iterations,including honest friends but not lovers,avuncular love(derived from my relationships) and even fuck buddies.
Where Frog disagreed w/ the Judge was that he acknowledged the possibility of non-disingenuous relationships . Significantly, QTCS can include CiTV relationships on the left side of the continuum.

Frog was critizied for not taking enuf anecdotes from the supply side,but many anecdotes from working girls here seem to support
QTCS.

(fwiw-I agree w/ Frog)

___________________________________________________

oddfellow4870

04-09-2003, 03:16 AM

Originally posted by justme
Part of why I think the relationship was so healthy was both of our acknowledgement and acceptence of it's inherent temporality.

The potential wonders that can be found in any affair, with sex worker or attached other, are at least partly founded on this dynamic. Knowing we will leave (or they will) lets us play with greater abandon.

oddfellow4870

04-09-2003, 03:23 AM

Originally posted by Judge Crater
jm:

I Constructive dealing with anger, to my way of thinking, is one of the hallmarks of a functional, healthy relationship. It never happens with prostitutes. They never take you seriously enough to get angry at you. It's one of the ways you know you're a john.
JC

Sorry Judge, You should never say never. I have at least 2 examples.

First Regular. Chewed me out for taking a half hour with her rather than our regular hour. Screamed at me for mentioning how pretty one of the new girls was.

Second Regular: Yelled at me for suggesting sex away from the parlor, after we had a few lunches on the "outside." " I lay down for men all week! Can't we give it a rest?"

h. von bingen

04-09-2003, 03:33 AM

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Talking like this to a typical provider for a couple of hours will result in her expressing honest anger (most non-providers too)!

Talking like this to me for a couple of hours will result in me expressing a desire to have sex.

foreplay = comparative religion discussion,

hvb

h. von bingen

04-09-2003, 03:38 AM

Originally posted by justme
If there's anything that unreasonably gets on my nerve, it's new agey non-denominational Christians that insist that Catholics aren't Christians.

Makes me want to puke.

the person who made this assertion was not even close to a new agey christian. she was practices the hyper fundamentalist type of catholicism that mel gibson does. lots of catholics even middle of the road ones make the distinction.

pax christi,
hvb

Wwanderer

04-09-2003, 04:25 AM

Originally posted by h. von bingen
Talking like this to me for a couple of hours will result in me expressing a desire to have sex.
foreplay = comparative religion discussion,

Hmmmm...we are going to make each other truly happy and miserable one of these lives.

-Ww

Wwanderer

04-09-2003, 04:33 AM

Originally posted by pswope
Although,a pragmatist himself, Frog posited that there was a line(continuum) of potential relationships in the commercial realm beginning with anonymous alienated sex a SW may have on a stroll w/ a trick and ending w/ the remote but actual possibility of a complete intimate relationship warts and all between wroking girl and john. In between were many iterations,including honest friends but not lovers,avuncular love(derived from my relationships) and even fuck buddies. Where Frog disagreed w/ the Judge was that he acknowledged the possibility of non-disingenuous relationships . Significantly, QTCS can include CiTV relationships on the left side of the continuum.

From your description, I am not sure that I see exactly what is so "quantum" about Frog's theory, but to me the big plus of QTCS is that it does not underestimate the diversity, flexability and growth potential of peoples' emotions and psychology. It does not mistake cultural norms, values and patterns for absolute laws of nature. Neither "true love" nor "true friendship" between a provider and a john are even among the more difficult or amazing things of which some people are capable.

-Ww

Geezy Muldoon

04-09-2003, 04:37 AM

PS:

Although I think of myself primarily as the first Buddhist comedian, I still think Frog's theory is the height of vanity and thus invalid as self-serving. I have very high standards.

True, I felt a violent erotic attraction to Martine/Marie those long years ago. I usually came three times an hour. Only once in the past year have I came that many times in an hour. Usually, it takes me two hours and sometimes not even two hours will get me excited enough for three shots.

Maybe it could have been love. I'll never know. We never had to endure and learn to comfort each other day in and day out. It was, most definitely, a mutual violent erotic attraction.

HH:

You may be heartened to know that Martine/Marie was black - a light skinned French mulatto.

My Characters in the Void theory will be understood if you read the entirety of Mrs. Chong's Debut.

jm:

I often say stupid things.

pjorourke

04-09-2003, 04:51 AM

Originally posted by Wwanderer
From your description, I am not sure that I see exactly what is so "quantum" about Frog's theory

I agree. As I undertstand the term quantum, it applies more to the JC's CiTV theory -- discrete characters interacting with each other. Frog's theory seems more appropriately named the Continuum Theory of Commercial Sex.

*********

04-09-2003, 04:59 AM

I don't know if it's the weather with spring fever and all but I am sick and tired of single johns wanting to see me claiming they are looking for a girlfriend and asking personal questions why I'm single etc. etc.

I have tried to be nice about it and explained I do not date my johns in my personal life. I am not there trying to be your girl, I'm just there to be your whore for the time alloted so please let's stop this bullshit, you know who are you.

Also what is wrong with some of you, calling before 8am, don't you know we need our beauty sleep. It's not my problem if you woke up with a piss hard on, find relief elsewhere, do not call me looking to get off on the phone.

Happy Hooker

04-09-2003, 05:30 AM

Thanks for the 411 swope.

JC, Why would I care if Martine was a black, light skin french mulatto?

It appears you feel you have to list someone who is, or has been, apart of your life race or skin color to help validate you are not a racists...

Also, I haven't been bored enough lately to read the rest of your play.

SW, look, sorry bitch I am trying to get this john shit down right. I wont bother you no more.... sheesh.. ;)

*********

04-09-2003, 05:42 AM

Originally posted by Happy Hooker
Also, I haven't been bored enough lately to read the rest of your play.

LMAO, and his postings lately wtf is going on. I wonder if he really did have that lobotomy.

justlooking

04-09-2003, 06:11 AM

Originally posted by Wwanderer
PS - Talking like this to a typical provider for a couple of hours will result in her expressing honest anger (most non-providers too)!

You see, now I get to say that something Wwanderer said does not reflect my own experience.

justlooking

04-09-2003, 06:13 AM

Originally posted by Happy Hooker
I am trying to learn how to be a john. And since part of being a john is manipulating, and using hookers to satisfy your own selfish sexual needs by piercing their voids, I figured its something I need to learn.

No no no.

The way I understand the Theory, you can't pierce somebody else's void. You can only pierce your own void.

(This is so riduculous that I just have to love it.)

pswope

04-09-2003, 06:17 AM

Judge

As I understand it, Frog was B' Hai (he was a roadie for Seals &Crofts) & is so cool that he transcends the mortal concept of male vanity. Perhaps right side commercial relationships are reserved for gods.

My greatest accomplishment as a life long whorehound ,besides getting alady to walkawayfrom her pimp, is getting several of my ladies to learn to trust enough so they can express and accept true expressions of emotion-be it anger,jealousy,or even
(mitigated) love. I taught them w/ a john like me, there was no chance of being hurt via that expression,asIaccept them withall their imperfections. The key,is of course,honesty. And as was pointed out above,commercial sex.relations can be more honest than others

SW
MOst phones have an off switch. I'm working on the same switch for needy johns.

Happy Hooker

04-09-2003, 06:40 AM

Originally posted by justlooking
No no no.

The way I understand the Theory, you can't pierce somebody else's void. You can only pierce your own void.

(This is so riduculous that I just have to love it.)

FUCK!!!Thats what I have been doing wrong. I have to pierce my own void...

wait a minute, been there...done that. That shit hurts.

Fuck it I will just stick to being a hooker, leave the john stuff to the experts.

Geezy Muldoon

04-09-2003, 08:06 AM

Originally posted by justlooking
No no no.

The way I understand the Theory, you can't pierce somebody else's void. You can only pierce your own void.

(This is so riduculous that I just have to love it.)

jl:

Thanks for appreciating the true ridiculousness of commercial sex. You've got it down pat.

HH:

I don't go around piercing hooker's voids. I don't have that power. I do go around playing games with hookers by coming up with an impersonation of myself that works for them - that is how I can tell they view me and are reading me.

When I do that I am merely dragging out elements of my actual personality that work for the session. I am absolutely detached when I do that. I've even mastered a Needy Guy impression, which I always thought I'd never be able to do.

That's hugely funny to me when I do that. It shows mastery over self and the illusions of commercial sex. I'm kind of like Peter Sellers when I do that. It's all improvised impersonation. Afterwards, I bust a gut laughing.

I would never, ever do that to a hooker once I have a sense of their actual character. I would always be myself with that hooker out of respect for them.

If you want to understand CitV, read the play.

PS:

I don't know about that expressions of anger, jealousy and love stuff. I just try to be completely relaxed and make the session up as it goes along. Interesting resume Frog has.

SW:

For you, we'll invent a new video show.

Slap that trick.

Best, etc.

Judge Crater (Ho slapper extraordinaire)

Geezy Muldoon

04-09-2003, 08:08 AM

jm:

Before I forget, your story is sweet. I'm convinced.

Be a good boy, don't take drugs. Find a nice girl and have a couple of children.

Best, etc.

JC

pswope

04-09-2003, 08:10 AM

Originally posted by Happy Hooker

Fuck it I will just stick to being a hooker, leave the john stuff to the experts.

Afterreading this board for a yearand meeting many f us. doyoureally think anyofus know what the fuckwe'redoing?

We're justa bunch of neurotic Houdinis

Wwanderer

04-09-2003, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by justlooking
You see, now I get to say that something Wwanderer said does not reflect my own experience.

It was inevitable but, no doubt, no less satisfying for it.

-Ww

Geezy Muldoon

04-09-2003, 08:14 AM

Speak for yourself. I'm a psychotic Houdini.

jl, the most respected PMB poster in modern times, has said so.

Therefore, it is true.

SW agrees as well.

It's unanimous.

Judge Crater (just another Goon on the BBC)

Wwanderer

04-09-2003, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by justlooking
The way I understand the Theory, you can't pierce somebody else's void. You can only pierce your own void.

Re void piercings, the image you should have is that of an excited four year old playing with a straight pin in a room full of balloons. What he/she can do and what he/she may do are not the same.

-Ww

justme

04-09-2003, 08:18 AM

Originally posted by John Blackthorne
It has nothing to do with the factions you cite. Fundamentalist Christians all believe Catholicism to be a false religion...and its followers to be non Christian Idol Worshipers.

I live in the South, new age does not register here.

More proof that Texas isn't in "The South".

I meet a lot more new agey Christians than I meet fundamentalists. Although I'm sure it would bother me from them, too. On the other hand, it probably wouldn't be the thing that bothered me most about them.

justme

04-09-2003, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by h. von bingen
the person who made this assertion was not even close to a new agey christian. she was practices the hyper fundamentalist type of catholicism that mel gibson does. lots of catholics even middle of the road ones make the distinction.

See my response to JB.

justme

04-09-2003, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by Judge Crater
jm:

I often say stupid things.

Don't we all.

justme

04-09-2003, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by Judge Crater
Before I forget, your story is sweet. I'm convinced.

Be a good boy, don't take drugs. Find a nice girl and have a couple of children.

Thanks, and I've been off chemical modifiers for quite a while. The wife and kids thing is up their in my list of priorities.

I was less interested in convincing anyone of the legitimacy of the relationship than I was in discussing a pathological example (the fact that was in first person, at least for me, only added narcissistic fun to the mix as a bonus).

To be honest, I'm a little surprised that this is the extent to which people had questions. Makes me really think the value of my usual narative is close to nil.

JackT

04-09-2003, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Re void piercings, the image you should have is that of an excited four year old playing with a straight pin in

Kids, don't try this at home.

A four year old should NOT be playing with a straight pin.

He's liable to poke his eye out.

Wwanderer

04-09-2003, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by JackT
A four year old should NOT be playing with a straight pin.
He's liable to poke his eye out.

It is only an image I am suggesting, of course, but that is indeed part of it. You can do yourself serious injury piercing voids too.

-Ww

Wwanderer

04-09-2003, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by justme
To be honest, I'm a little surprised that this is the extent to which people had questions. Makes me really think the value of my usual narative is close to nil.

Exactly the wrong conclusion, imo. The "usual narrative" (two r's I think?) makes it more engaging and much easier to think of specific questions.

Also, with all due respect and no intention of insult to a UGer I respect a lot, the quite negative spin you give it from the very start, e.g. the very title of the thread, makes me less interested in the details and thus less inclined to ask any questions.

-Ww

justme

04-09-2003, 09:32 AM

OK, here's one boring, self indulgent narrative.

(with the bonus of seeing what a justme review looks like)

Review: Nogoya - May
Date:
Provider: May
Phone or Pager:
***** Address:
URL / Website: http://
City: Houston
State: Texas
Area / Address: St Emmanuel & Rusk
Appointment Type: Incall
Provider Category: Spa or Studio
Services Offered: See below
Session Length Scheduled: 30 mins
Fee: 140
Total Paid: 140
Was Tipping or Upselling an issue? No
Was the Description you were given accurate? Yes
Hair Color and Length: Short, brown w/ highlights
Age: 23
Race: Korean
Where did you hear about this provider?
Provider`s Body: See below
What was the Provider's Attitude like?

Comments: The day began innocently enough, I suppose, with half a bottle of double wood scotch and a screening of Arthur (god bless Dudley Moore). By six I was drunk beyond repair and had passed out (not before ridding myself of a good portion of that half bottle). There were things between, a brief swim with someone who does not share my desire to sleep with, a hazy trip to Hickory Hollow for some chipped beef, a lengthy discourse on whether or not I was dating or seeing a particular young woman. However, despite the amount, the activity was still at a fairly sleepy level of intensity, so I wasn't entirely surprised when I woke up at eleven, drank a bottle of Gatorade (for that deep down body thirst), swollowed a pair of excedrin (the headache medicine), and headed back to the scene of my earlier crimes to see if my friends were still around. They, however, had not had the benefit of a nap and besides watching Lewis Black had no further plans for the evening. Rather than attempting to energize the crowd, I took my leave and headed to the Nagoya modeling studio.

The Nagoya modeling studio is an Asian incall establishment that features thirty minute, $140 dollar sessions with Koreans of sundry English knowledge. The women are 6-8 in looks and have ranged (in my experience, of course) from 4-9 in performance. I often wonder how many of these girls will eventually end up on Telephone road (probably few, if any, as I get the feeling that they are simply doing short tours of duty and will eventually end up back in Korea where the money they make will go much further). The studio is located next to a Vietnamese eatery that I frequented in high school, so there's always a touch of nostalgia for days gone by when I pull into the parking lot. It's also located very close to Enron, er Astro's field which I find hilarious. Anyway, the drill is to park, get patted down by the bored security guard, wait to be buzzed in, and tell the mama that you've been there before.

Usually, mama selects a woman for me (and has only dissapointed a few times) so I was pleasantly surprised when I got the lineup tonight. The girls piled in and I noted that they were a little on the plain side. Worse they were a little on the 'obvious that I'm a sex-worker' side. One girl, however, stood out. She was short, round, and far from in shape. She did, however, have a really cute smile, and as cute usually trumps beautifull in my book, I slected May.

Geezy Muldoon

04-09-2003, 09:32 AM

jm:

I like your narratives. You've got kind of an Elmore Leonard thing going sometimes. Your dry, analytical, formal logic side is tedious when not being used for work*.

Please narrate a few incidents off the top of your head that occurred between you and your lover. Just go wild. Let the irrationality of human emotion take over. Give us a glimpse.

Whaddya do about Thanksgiving Dinner for instance? Leave your lover eating Taco Bell while you mollified Mom and cowered before Dad? Or did you take her home for the holidays and demand that she be accepted?

Stuff like that gives me the window into your soul and story.

Best, etc.

Judge Crater

*At work, I actually write very much like jl. Each month I produce a chron file that is about a foot high filled with long, windy letters, contracts, opinions, etc. I am only irrational here.

justme

04-09-2003, 09:33 AM

With a smile May led me to our room where she proceded to take my money. she left me to strip and lie in the cold room (it was probably less cold than I thought, but my shorts hadn't dried from the swimming and I had that bone-in wetness to contend with). She eventually returned and smiled as she approached the bed. Still half lying on the bed, I hugged her and began to work her skirt down which evoked a giggle.

May is objectively a six to seven in looks. She has a round face with short hair, parted on the side. Her breasts are smallish, but I kind of like that better anyway. She has a tummy and could probably loose twenty pounds before anyone would call her slim, but she wears the extra weight very well, most likely because she is still (as she claims) 23. She smiles with her whole face. I wished that she hadn't been wearing so much eye makeup and glitter.

She undressed and lay down next to me. We caressed each other and she leaned in to kiss me. This is where she won me over completely. Normally, I'm happy if I find a sex worker who kisses with any proficiency at all. Actually, in general I surpised if any woman that I'm with kisses worth a damn. May kissed me with her whole body. Her bottom lip was soft and bee stung and slid around my mouth with thoughtfull care. She knew how to read my desire and could kiss passionately or tenderly as I wanted. Better still, she knew to shift and move her body in cue to the kissing so that she kept my entire body, rather than just my mouth, aroused. I was impressed.

After five or ten minutes of some really great making out, I remembered that May was on the clock and so I gradually slid down exploring the rest of her body with my eyes, nose, and mouth. Her nipples responded well to my attention and her body reacted with seemingly genuine pleasure as I fondled her. As I fucked her with my mouth I noted the smell of fresh soap and was briefly reminded that I was probably not the first person to enjoy May that evening. I really despise those realizations. Anyway, she enjoyed herself (or at least was able to convince me, which is all I ask for), and soon I had worked my mouth back to hers and was enjoying more kissing.

We tangled together and pretty soon it was time for her to reach over to the nightstand and grab a condom and lubrication (another one of those annoying reminders). Once it we were ready I entered her. She is warm and snug (although probably not as snug as she was two months ago when she got to Nagoya), and I was happy. We fucked with her below me for ten or fifteen minutes. Her noises seemed a bit contrived, but not nearly as fake as others. After a while, I sat up and we fucked some with her in my lap. I soon grew tired, however, and lay down. Unfortunately all the rolling around put my head about a foot over the bed, but May was nice enough to hold the back of my neck as she continued to hump me. We rolled back over and resumed missionary for a few minutes when the dreaded knock at the door came. I mentally cursed, quickened my pace, and came soon after. May cleaned us up and we got dressed. I playfully snuck a few gropes in as she cleaned the room and she giggled and told me she was shy. Shy? I told her that she had a bad job for someone who is shy and she had the business sense to laugh, but not too hard, at my observation. As I left I saw the lineup assembled for a couple of other guys and it reaffirmed that I had made the right call.

Throughout the sex, May was brillaintly aware of my subtle changes in needs. She read my body language fairly well and was able to provide me with the experience I was looking for. She isn't the best person I've had sex with, but she genually seems into it (if not the sex, then at least pleasing the customer) and most importantly she seems happy. I plan to go back soon and highly recommend May to anyone who can suspend reality long enough to briefly believe that there is genuine emotion in a Korean brothel. I doubt she'd be good for rough sex, and she lacks the communication skills (in English, I'm sure if I spoke Korean we'd have had a pleasant conversation as she has the feel of someone who is extroverted enough) to convince you that you're with a girlfriend. However, kissing May is outstanding and having sex with May is above average.

What is it with May's anyway? Maybe I should start looking for them.
Would you recommend this Provider to others?

justme

04-09-2003, 09:34 AM

Obviously, her name isn't May.

Equally obviously, she wasn't 23 (29 and now 30).

justlooking

04-09-2003, 09:34 AM

Has this woman been to New York recently?

Geezy Muldoon

04-09-2003, 09:36 AM

jm:

I dig your review. Did you ever read my review of Bettina on JAG? It's got the "Meditation on Bettina's Asshole" bit in it.

Best, etc.

Judge Crater

justme

04-09-2003, 09:39 AM

Originally posted by justlooking
Has this woman been to New York recently?

Yes.

(I was somewhat conflicted about not sharing this at the time, but I figured you may have guessed then.)

((Although hopefully this explains my detatched lameness on my brief tour of NYC perversity.))

justme

04-09-2003, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by Judge Crater
I dig your review. Did you ever read my review of Bettina on JAG? It's got the "Meditation on Bettina's Asshole" bit in it.

How could I have missed one of Jag's best non-SR review?

justme

04-09-2003, 09:43 AM

I saw May again. Her kissing was not as good as I had remembered it the first time, although it was still above average it was a little too 'open mouthed' and agressive (if that makes any sense). She speaks almost no English and kept 'telling' me things in Korean (with accompanied giggles). Still, I actually ended up having a much better time. Everything was just more 'fun' and playfull with very few commercial overtones.

justme

04-09-2003, 09:45 AM

I should note that she insisted that the second time I saw her (the above follow-up) was the first time I saw her. She had no recollection of the wet short day.

I also hope the Judge is noting that I attributed my enjoyment to the normal self-delusion type stuff (which I'm still sure is true).

fallenwoman

04-09-2003, 09:51 AM

the fool about to walk off the cliff:
so, I often get out of my mind with the constant deliberation about emotion in this forum. It makes me batty to watch the unfolding of negativity about the sex business and love. Dreamboys this, piercing that. First of all, none of the men here (or what I know of) have never been whores. And if they have, they have done it with a much larger appendage than us girls, so it's completely different. And none of us whores have ever actually been "johns"
we can all pretend or fathom what it is like, but it is far from accurate. Certainly, no one has been anywhere near accurate in explaining the way I, personally view these subjects. So, in my fury, I wrote a little guideline, for those who have found no fulfillment in the past explanations of love on this board. I hope some will find it useful. And if not, I hope it is humorous to the others. because besides love the only thing we're lacking in our society is a sense of humor. Forgive the girl...it's all about the demons:)

Dr. Banana’s Guidelines for the few (and far between).

1. Fall in love
options:
a. with a provider
b. with a non-provider
c. with a john
d. with a non-john
fall in love as much as you can in one lifetime, sometimes loving more than one person at the same time in different ways relishing the fact that love takes on many faces, forms, and temperatures. Sometimes you will only be in love with one person at a time. Remember at these times how nice it feels to be in love with one person, and how much you miss loving many others.

2. pierce the “so-called, non-existent except to the blind“ VOID.

the void exists for those who believe in the void, for those who do not, it is a fragment of other peoples imaginations. Once you pierce the Void (if you are a believer), absorb everything you can because once you leave the void, you want to have experienced the void fully so that if it was not a pleasant experience, you will have absorbed it all without question and this will serve as your reminder that you do not want to go back. If you had a pleasant experience and have absorbed the void, let it be a reminder how nice it can be to pierce the void. If you do not believe in the void, collect the money and advance to “GO”

3. Remember that no relationship is perfect and without flaw, whether it is a relationship that contains elements of the sex trade or not. Human beings are flawed and should start to enjoy their flawed thoughts, physicalities, personalities, and conversations. Sex workers are flawed, johns are flawed, regular run-of-the-mill people are flawed, as well as the intelligent, artistic, eclectic, and deluded. There's more... but you get the point.

4. When love goes wrong...
All love goes right and wrong at the same time.
Nothing lasts forever... thank heaven. If it was meant to be, it will. And if not, it won’t. It would be better to love and have it go wrong, or to have made the wrong decision in the said love, than to have held back from love and intimacy when life ends so quickly. So much loneliness, so little time. Make love the priority not emptiness.

I can't think anymore... my head just exploded on the wall, I've got to clean it up. I think it's the one thing that would just not be so appealing to my clients :) Thanks for listening.

xo
Dr. Kevorkian, I mean, Dr. Banana

p.s. HH, and JC, forgive me, I know that you guys do not agree with all of my advice, but I can only stay quiet for so long... :P

justlooking

04-09-2003, 09:58 AM

Ana, with all due respect (and that's not just polite PC bullshit, because I think you're a fabulously good writer), that advice is meaningless unless either or both of (a) you're fallen in love with a john (requited or not) or (b) a john's fallen in love (to your knowledge) with you (requited or not).

And if either of those has happened, it would be a lot more useful if you would talk about the specific instances (with the real specific specifics hidden, of course) than just say how good it is to fall in love in general.

(I really do think you're a fabulously good writer, BTW.)

Wwanderer

04-09-2003, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by fallenwoman

1 - fall in love as much as you can in one lifetime

2 - the void exists for those who believe in the void

3 - Remember that no relationship is perfect and without flaw, whether it is a relationship that contains elements of the sex trade or not.

4 - All love goes right and wrong at the same time.

1 - 4: HUGE DITTO!

-Ww

fallenwoman

04-09-2003, 10:06 AM

I cannot speak for how someone else has ever or will ever feel about me. I'm on the receiving end when it happens. I judge it from my eyes, so I cannot say. But I have been in love and involved in relationships with johns and non johns. Over and over. I do not want to count them or put a number. It belittles it. I think it's pointless to recount what happened, how they ended or what not, because it's all so diverse. But the above are just my thoughts reflecting on the little things I learned from all of the loves. And it comes from a girl who used to think that humans just suck. The sex business gave me a different viewpoint and gave me hope. I know it sounds fucking sappy, but it happened. To me. And I can't help myself. Thanks for the compliments, coming from you, I'm honored.
xo
a

justlooking

04-09-2003, 10:10 AM

Don't you see? Even just saying you've had numerous relationships with johns makes that post much more useful.

Apart from the fact that all relationships are unique, would you say that there was anything about those relationships that made them different, as a group, from relationships with non-johns?

justme

04-09-2003, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by justlooking
And if either of those has happened, it would be a lot more useful if you would talk about the specific instances (with the real specific specifics hidden, of course) than just say how good it is to fall in love in general.

That's what I thought.

(I don't think that JL is presumtuous enough to imply that anyone should feel anything but tremendous reservations at posting about a 'real' relationship)

fallenwoman

04-09-2003, 10:21 AM

"Apart from the fact that all relationships are unique, would you say that there was anything about those relationships that made them different, as a group, from relationships with non-johns?"

Honestly, the only thing that sticks out is that non-johns want to know what the business is all about and ask more questions. Most of them became more comfortable with the idea of what whores really are like after hearing my stories. Uness you've been there done that, the misconceptions about the sex business are HUGE. Besides that... I really can't think of any differences that had to do with john, non-john particulars. Oh, I thought of one more... johns are much more aware of the dangers of unprotected sex. I think this goes without saying. Non-johns are just not in the world of being educated about what can and cannot happen with diseases. But... like I said... didn't surprise me.

Geezy Muldoon

04-09-2003, 10:26 AM

(In Heaven (after she has lived a long life getting used to herself and becoming completely, completely comfortable) Ana will put on a concert every night where she gets to do her latest rock star impression, tap dance and tell jokes.)

(Everyone will have sex with her at least once. Some will be frequent repeaters.)

(Everyone will love her.)

(She will be 28 forever.)

(My grandmother has already put in the fix. One of her cousins is in charge of the Committee on Rules and Entries.)

(The Celts have been in charge of Heaven for a long time.)

(They're the only ones with a sense of humor.)

(Heaven is a funny place.)

justme

04-09-2003, 10:29 AM

Most johns and prostitutes probably avoid letting their not commercial sex participating S/O's know about their own involvement with 'the hobby'.

I know I do.

But Ana's departure from this standard practise might skew her results.

justlooking

04-09-2003, 10:31 AM

I'm not sure about the "and prostitutes".

Every prostitute I've known well enough to talk to about it has let their SOs know they're prostitutes.

But of course the prostitutes I know well enough to talk to about it might themselves be a skewed sample.

justme

04-09-2003, 10:33 AM

I'm wondering how Ana knows that her boyfriend to be john isn't just looking to score free trim.

justme

04-09-2003, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by justlooking
I'm not sure about the "and prostitutes".

Every prostitute I've known well enough to talk to about it has let their SOs know they're prostitutes.

I can certainly think of one prostitute that has no plans of sharing this information.

justme

04-09-2003, 10:36 AM

Ah, 'ex-prostitute'.

I suppose the practising prostitutes that I've known fairly well generally regarded their job as exclusive from having an s/o of any type. Although most hope to someday have an s/o (in the misty future when they stop prostituting themselves).

Slinky Bender

04-09-2003, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by justme
I'm wondering how Ana knows that her boyfriend to be john isn't just looking to score free trim.

Perhaps she doesn't care so much as long as she gets to be in love?

Wwanderer

04-09-2003, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by justme
I'm wondering how Ana knows that her boyfriend to be john isn't just looking to score free trim.

<sigh> How does any woman know that about any boyfriend-to-be? Listen to the lady. All relationships have potential and real problems; it goes with the territory. And many of those that people mention re provider-client relationships are exactly the same as or very similar to ones that occur in other types of relationships.

-Ww

fallenwoman

04-09-2003, 10:47 AM

(Everyone will love her.)

if this happens, I will be completely bored and I will transfer to Hell, thank you very much.

(tap dance and tell jokes)

tap dancing I'm good at, jokes, I'm not... so we better come up with a better plan. the rock star thing will be way old by then, so I hope I find another hobby! maybe making wooden staues of phallic symbols!!! WHOO HOO!!!

Thirdly, I think the first order of business would be meet the real, the one and only "Patrick" (skeleton in my apt.) and let him skin me alive. This is the only way I can think of to repay him for me exploiting him the way I do to get business! Come to think of it... this is a joke, and not a very good one at that. See? Forget the jokes.

drinking way too much coffee,
a

fallenwoman

04-09-2003, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by slinkybender
Perhaps she doesn't care so much as long as she gets to be in love?

There's no reply that I can think of to outdo this one:)

justlooking

04-09-2003, 10:53 AM

This is frightening. But I really feel from this series of posts that I now have this fairly deep personal understanding of Ana. It's weird. Just from like four posts.

Thanks -- even if it's just a misapprehension.

h. von bingen

04-09-2003, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by fallenwoman
fall in love as much as you can in one lifetime, sometimes loving more than one person at the same time in different ways relishing the fact that love takes on many faces, forms, and temperatures. Sometimes you will only be in love with one person at a time. Remember at these times how nice it feels to be in love with one person, and how much you miss loving many others.

this is probably the smartest single thing i have read on any pmb (and it certainly reflects my philosophy). but, a caveat to u ms. banana, such behaviour takes the utmost bravery. (and i think, to some extent, men who engage frequently in commercial sex are tending to take a coward's way out.)

my dear social register is by far the best writer on any whoreboard. i don't even think there is a close second (even hombre who was pretty damn good).

take love where u find it,
hvb

justme

04-09-2003, 12:18 PM

Originally posted by Wwanderer
<sigh> How does any woman know that about any boyfriend-to-be? Listen to the lady. All relationships have potential and real problems; it goes with the territory. And many of those that people mention re provider-client relationships are exactly the same as or very similar to ones that occur in other types of relationships.

-Ww

Oh come on WW, even you have to admit that the dishonesty that's all but inherent in the habit makes the likelyihood of such a deception much greater in these kind of relationships.

*********

04-09-2003, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by pswope
SW
MOst phones have an off switch. I'm working on the same switch for needy johns.

Yeah well my phone has to stay on 2407, my mom is sick, what if she needs me you schook.

Wwanderer

04-09-2003, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by justme
Oh come on WW, even you have to admit that the dishonesty that's all but inherent in the habit makes the likelyihood of such a deception much greater in these kind of relationships.

I thought it was called "the hobby", not "the habit", but as you remarked earlier in this thread, it is all semantics.

Anyway, deception is more likely in some sorts of relationships than others, but I do not know that provider-client ones are the extreme in this sense. Relationships in which one partner is married and the other is not are an example of a common sort of relationship in which deception is extremely likely.

In fact I suspect that some sort of significant deception occurs in almost all significant, long term relationships, and if I were as cynical as the character JC likes to play on UG, I'd say that the sort of relationship in which deception is most common is a successful one!

All that said, I don't see why Ana (or another provider) should have any more difficulty judging the sincerity of a client boyfriend-to-be than of any other sort of suitor. And, just to belabor the obvious, you did not originally ask how likely deception might be but only how Ana could tell. The answer is "in the same way she would tell if he weren't her client". That is my answer; hers would be more interesting.

-Ww

fallenwoman

04-09-2003, 12:37 PM

Dear HBV,

"tending to take a coward's way out.)"

It's the cowards that are the most fun :)

thanks for the comps.
I owe to you everything I know.
I have been trying to mind melt with you forever.

off to love and music,
a

Bill Furniture

04-09-2003, 12:39 PM

justme, have you ever seen a black chick named Koko who used to advertise on Houston Exotics? I have her pic on my computer from about 2 years ago.

justme

04-09-2003, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by slinkybender
Perhaps she doesn't care so much as long as she gets to be in love?

Any love that prefers its existence over attention to reality is delusion.

Dondee

04-09-2003, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by fallenwoman
Dear HBV,

"tending to take a coward's way out.)"

It's the cowards that are the most fun :)

thanks for the comps.
I owe to you everything I know.
I have been trying to mind melt with you forever.

off to love and music,
a

A mind is a terrible thing to MELT ..... did you mean to say, MELD ????

(just being my usual smartass self) :D

justme

04-09-2003, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by Bill Furniture
justme, have you ever seen a black chick named Koko who used to advertise on Houston Exotics? I have her pic on my computer from about 2 years ago.

No.

Wwanderer

04-09-2003, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by Dondee
did you mean to say, MELD ???

or MOLT?

-Ww

justme

04-09-2003, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by Wwanderer
I thought it was called "the hobby", not "the habit", but as you remarked earlier in this thread, it is all semantics.

Anyway, deception is more likely in some sorts of relationships than others, but I do not know that provider-client ones are the extreme in this sense. Relationships in which one partner is married and the other is not are an example of a common sort of relationship in which deception is extremely likely.

In fact I suspect that some sort of significant deception occurs in almost all significant, long term relationships, and if I were as cynical as the character JC likes to play on UG, I'd say that the sort of relationship in which deception is most common is a successful one!

All that said, I don't see why Ana (or another provider) should have any more difficulty judging the sincerity of a client boyfriend-to-be than of any other sort of suitor. And, just to belabor the obvious, you did not originally ask how likely deception might be but only how Ana could tell. The answer is "in the same way she would tell if he weren't her client". That is my answer; hers would be more interesting.

-Ww

I think habit is more accurate

I suppose we disagree, but I still think deception is more likely in a relationship that was initially based in deception and illusion.

I would be amazed if JC agreed with that

Of course that's the right answer (in some senses), but my approach in this instance was to be much more skeptical about this stuff. Trust but verify and the like. I was wondering if Ana was similarly doubtful.

Dondee & WW - "I'll Melt with You" was a song by Modern English (I'd call them post punk, but JL might get pissy).

justlooking

04-09-2003, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by h. von bingen
my dear social register is by far the best writer on any whoreboard.

I don't think ANYBODY (who's read his stuff, anyway) seriously disagrees with that.

Wwanderer

04-09-2003, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by justme
I still think deception is more likely in a relationship that was initially based in deception and illusion.

Yes, and relationships in which one partner is married (or even both) very often start with that person intentionally deceiving the other about his/her marital status. Surely that is not news to anyone?

Actually, it is probably useful to distinguish between deception and illusion here. I suspect that provider-client relationships may start with more of the latter but perhaps less of the former, on average, than more conventional romances. I mean, where was the deception in your initial encounters with May?

-Ww

justme

04-09-2003, 01:24 PM

Where was the deception?

She didn't even remember the session, but at the time she was acting like I was the best thing since frozen kim chee dumplings.

(tasty)

justme

04-09-2003, 01:28 PM

Written to a few PMB pals last July. I had previously written to them about my increasing fascisnation with a particular prostitute. I hadn't re-read this for a while, and would like to point out that this should be more evidence that I outwuss JL.

(Her name is not Kimmie, but it was the first name that popped in my mind when I edited out her real name today).

Wwanderer

04-09-2003, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by justme
Where was the deception?
She didn't even remember the session, but at the time she was acting like I was the best thing since frozen kim chee dumplings.
(tasty)

But surely that was illusion...like what actors and actresses do on stage. Did you really believe it? Did she think you would really believe it? Do you think, now in retrospect, that she was really trying to deceive you? In the same sense that the married-person-pretending-to-be-single is trying to "really" deceive the partner he/she hopes to seduce? In a 30 min session, in a massage parlour, the first time you met?

Maybe we have to get into our definitions of "deceive" and more semantics.

-Ww

justme

04-09-2003, 01:31 PM

Maybe the story isn't so strange, and hopefully it's not terribly self-destructive.

After my first visit to Kimmie (May) in early April I continued to see her at least weekly. Over time I came to feel a certain connection with her that was quite out of place in a commercial setting. Likewise, I began to notice that she was progressively happier and happier to see me on each visit. It was alarming to me that I was losing sight of the (for me) tremendous amounts of money I was spending to see this woman. Always in the back of my mind was the knowledge that she could simply be drawing me back in order to maximize her revenue.

I consulted my best friend (who has gone whoring once, and remains puzzled and yet understanding of my habit) on the subject and he asked me a few questions. Namely, he determined that while I was spending a tremendous amount of money on Kimmie, I was not depleting my savings or spending at a rate that I couldn't afford. He also determined that while I was thinking about her quite a bit, that it hadn't become obsessive, nor did it interfere with my daily living. It alarmed him that on a few occasions I had seen her on lunch breaks, integrating my visits into the work week. Still he was reassured that I never felt bad after seeing her and that there was never a feeling of guilt. After pondering the evidence he advised me to stop seeing her - his main contention being that nothing good could come of it. I agreed that this was great advice, but continued to see her opting for hour long sessions as opposed to the standard thirty minutes (at twice the cost).

In early June, I got tired of wondering and had a brief note translated into Korean by Gina, a hostess waitress that I have reviewed in the past. Gina was concerned about me and warned me about the perils of young Korean women looking to get married and establish citizenship. She was immediately suspicious of Kimmie's intentions and warned me to be extremely careful. After leaving the letter for Gina to have translated (she did not trust her English skill enough to do it herself) I went to see Kimmie. I had been trying for the last month or so to get her to tell me when she was leaving Houston. On this visit she let me know that she wasn't actually from Los Angeles. Rather she was in the United States on a six month tourist visa that expired at the beginning of August. She told me that she planned to work until the end of June, return to Los Angeles for a month, and the leave for Korea. I was put out.

Still, now I knew that I could only spend so much more money before she left. I resolved to see her once a week until she left. The next time I saw her, I brought my translated note which basically told her that I was certain that I felt a real emotional tie to her, and that I wasn't entirely sure what I expected her to do with that information. She read the note, digested it, and started crying. I tried to comfort her and eventually she stopped long enough to take my door fee to the mamasan. When she returned she was half crying/half laughing and we proceeded to have some of the best sex I have ever had in my life. That night forward, every time we were intimate there was real intimacy. I pushed away all my doubt at her motivation and trusted her. I continued to pay to see her, because the only way I could see her was to pay. Additionally, we called each other around three times a week after that night (having exchanged cell phone numbers). Her spoken English is horrible, but it turns out she can understand and read it with some degree of proficiency I imagine her English is about as good as my Spanish. Eventually we developed a dialect of limited English vocabulary and a tremendously simplified grammatical structure. Communication was slow, but ultimately possible and thankfully it got easier every time.

During the next three weeks I consulted often with my friend and Gina. My friend was relieved with the notion that she would be leaving at the end of June. He reasoned that since there was a guaranteed end that I might as well have fun in the mean time. Gina was still guarded, but seemed to be reassured by my contention that I wasn't looking for anything in particular. Actually, I ended up talking to Gina a lot in June and gained a tremendous amount of insight into her own life. I also became very comfortable with shelling out $30 or so every time I wanted to talk with Gina, as her bosses wouldn't let her sit with me with an empty glass.

justme

04-09-2003, 01:31 PM

One week before she left for Los Angeles, I proposed that I fly up to see her. She quickly agreed. I was thrilled and arranged the time off and purchased my tickets. My friend thought I had lost my mind, but realized that I was resolved. Kimmie left Houston earlier than she had stated, so I missed seeing her when I had planned to. I felt helpless saying good-bye to her from my desk at work, wanting very much to drive to the airport to see her off. Once she was in LA, we continued our tri-weekly phone calls and I counted the days until I would see her again.

Last Wednesday I became acutely aware that my allergies had begun to act up. I felt awful all day and managed to buy some Benedryl on my way home. That night I dealt with serious congestion, headache, and a hacking cough. The next day the Benedryl had made its way into my body, but I felt a tremendous nausea all day. Actually, I felt not at all unlike I had done an 8-ball of coke the previous evening. Eventually, I left work three hours early and went home to sleep. That night I was running back and forth from my bed to my toilet, pissing out my ass the entire time. I couldn't believe the timing. I had a seriously important project that needed to be finished before I left the city the following evening (Friday). I wasn't too sure how I was going to get things done. Friday morning I packed and dragged myself to work by noon. Somehow, I got the project finished and ate a bowl of soup. I left as soon as things were complete and headed for the airport. The flight to L.A. was pure terror as I closely monitored my nausea, ordering ginger ale at every opportunity and eating peanuts one at a time. Somewhere in all of this it occurred to me that I was flying two thousand miles to spend a weekend with a prostitute that I had spent maybe six hours of my life with and who spoke almost no English.

I landed in L.A. and called Kimmie, letting her know that I'd be at her place in an hour. I picked up the rental and got lost (having only driven in L.A. once before, and then only for a day). As I found my way again, I began to feel better. Eventually I managed to find her apartment building and I parked, another wave a nausea lifting. Her building lacked public access and according to the placard she had no land line, so I called her cell phone one more time to get her to come down. When the elevator door opened and she stepped out, my nausea completely lifted. She opened the door and I held her, thrilled to no end that there would be no knock at the door to hurry my embrace.

The next four days passed in monotonically increasing bliss. We spent time at the Le Brae tar pits (the LACMA is closed for renovation), Santa Monica, Westwood, and Korea town. I hate Los Angeles with a passion, but even the vapid southern Californians could not shake the cloud of good mood that surrounded me. On two occasions we separated. Once she went to see her friends and I went to Amoeba (God, I love Amoeba) to do some record shopping. On the other occasion I ate lunch with my two Angelino friends in Pasadena.

Kimmie had for the last six weeks been telling me that she would return to the United States, this time locating herself in Houston for the purpose of seeing me. I dismissed it as idle talk, but was somewhat concerned that she might be telling the truth. As much as I enjoyed my time with her, I knew that it made no sense for her to uproot her life in such a dramatic fashion for me. By this Monday, I stopped protesting whenever she offered to return. The way things are left now, she will return to Korea in order to be home by her birthday (on August 1st) and will come back to Houston to study English sometime in September. I suppose she will pay for it all with money earned on this trip to the United States. She has repeatedly turned down my offers to subsidize her return to Houston. I'm still not certain that she will come back, however, as she mentioned that her mother was not happy with her decision to come to the United States the first time. I suppose we'll see.

While I have decided to roll with the punches, I do acknowledge the absurdity of my situation. I hope everyone can believe me when I say that I have thought about all of this a lot. I'm pretty sure I understand the incredible number of issues that lie ahead if I try to pursue anything beyond what I have done, and yet I am fairly certain that they can be overcome.

The bottom line is that this woman makes me happier than anyone has in years and at this point I have decided to shrug off reality as merely an obstacle that needs to be contended with.

I've left out a million relevant things, but this is the gist of my situation. Maybe the story isn't so strange, and hopefully it's not terribly self-destructive.

justme

04-09-2003, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Maybe we have to get into our definitions of "deceive" and more semantics.

No, I grok your distinction (I think):

Deception: Acting in away that will intentionally bring about misunderstanding of reality for a given person

Illusion: Acting in a decieving way without any intent of deception.

Acting like I was super great was illusion, but acting like I wasn't abhorent was probably deception.

justlooking

04-09-2003, 01:38 PM

YOU AND WHAT ARMY?

justme

04-09-2003, 01:43 PM

Ok, You can be wussier, but please don't shout, it hurts my feelings.

Slinky Bender

04-09-2003, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by justlooking
I don't think ANYBODY (who's read his stuff, anyway) seriously disagrees with that.

Doesn't even the US Open have amature and professional divisions.

John Blackthorne

04-09-2003, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by justlooking
I don't think ANYBODY (who's read his stuff, anyway) seriously disagrees with that.

Well, Block Denizen of DC is pretty damned incredible.

And I know one even better, but he reserves his prose for private venues, not public ones.

Not to be critical of SR...he is outstanding.

JB

pjorourke

04-09-2003, 03:54 PM

JB, Bus?

Wwanderer

04-09-2003, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by justme

1 - No, I grok your distinction (I think):
Deception: Acting in away that will intentionally bring about misunderstanding of reality for a given person
Illusion: Acting in a decieving way without any intent of deception.

2 - Acting like I was super great was illusion, but acting like I wasn't abhorent was probably deception.

1 - Yes, not elegantly worded definitions...or even gramatically consistent, but that is of course the idea. And I trust that you agree that there is a world of difference between intentionally deceiving a person and in helping them enjoy an illusion that they deliberately seek (and pay for).

2 - Really? You think that you were abhorent to her on that first encounter? Presumably you do not think that you were at this stage in the relationship:

Originally posted by justme
The next time I saw her, I brought my translated note which basically told her that I was certain that I felt a real emotional tie to her, and that I wasn't entirely sure what I expected her to do with that information. She read the note, digested it, and started crying. I tried to comfort her and eventually she stopped long enough to take my door fee to the mamasan. When she returned she was half crying/half laughing and we proceeded to have some of the best sex I have ever had in my life. That night forward, every time we were intimate there was real intimacy.

or later when she came to Houston to live with you for five months and so forth. If that is correct, when and why do you think her abhorence disappeared? Unless you have an awfully convincing answer, I think that she probably never abhored you at all, though she was probably indifferent at that first meeting. Women usually judge men as potential sex partners rather quickly and rarely change the verdict, if it is negative, no matter how long and well you know them.

In other words, I suspect that your relationship with May/Kimmie was not based on deception from the beginning, and that even if there were some elements of deception, they were probably much more mild and minor than those of a married person representing himself/herself as single to a potential romantic partner.

-Ww

h. von bingen

04-09-2003, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by justme
No, I grok your distinction.

what a blast from the past! there were no geeks qua geeks in my day (b/f star wars). they were a loose affiliation of math club guys, a/v guys, ham radio operators and trekkies (yeah i know trekkers is more pc). why the fuck are these the horniest guys in high school? btw, in the 70s even THEY got some.

thank g-d, the interminable, children of dune is finished,
hvb

h. von bingen

04-09-2003, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by Wwanderer
or MOLT?

-Ww

well, i can tell u one thing, the combo would be molten. maybe ana could be yr younger, prettier wife in yr next life?

fasting and praying,
hvb

Wwanderer

04-09-2003, 04:50 PM

Do you regret that your relationship with May/Kimmie ever happened? If you had it to do over again and knew that it would all proceed and turn out in exactly the same way, would you take a pass or enjoy a second helping?

If the answers are "no" and "the latter", why do you say that you would advise other hobbyists against pursuing romantic relationships with providers in general?

-Ww

PS - If you can find me elsewhere online and send me a postal address, I'd be happy to send you an official membership card in the League of Dreamboys.

Wwanderer

04-09-2003, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by h. von bingen
well, i can tell u one thing, the combo would be molten. maybe ana could be yr younger, prettier wife in yr next life?

I thought you said you were gonna be a guy next time, so I imagined that I would have to be...

In any case, the two of you would probably overmatch me. From experience I have found that I can only handle one deep woman at a time...though any number of shallow ones takes little extra effort. Still, we can't have anyone left out; there is sure to be a solution of some sort if we keep open minds and mouths.

-Ww

Kate Courtesan

04-09-2003, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by Judge Crater
The reason I am so adamant about all this is that I have very high standards about inter-personal relationships.

I also believe very strongly in the curative and redemptive powers of good, functioning, healthy inter-personal relationships.

As strange as this may sound coming from me, I believe in love.

JC, you can have very high standards about inter-personal relationships without discounting the chance of being able to love more than one person. Love can be found on many levels, whether it is love of family, child, friends or mates. I would be the first to admit I've found myself in healthy, loving relationships with a few clients, and these relationships were not dysfunctional or unhealthy. Given the proper perspective on reality, it's quite possible to love a person without vaulting one's self over the edge of a cliff for it... or more simply put, having to forsake all others*.

KC

* I don't personally subscribe to any religious belief that requires love must forsake all others. I think this is a crock of shit, actually.

Kate Courtesan

04-09-2003, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by Thorn
[BMost of reality is about as empty as a cinder block falling from a height of 5 stories up, aimed straight at the middle of your cranium.

Yeah, there are those three holes filled with air, but its not going to keep the rest of it from caving your skull in.[/B]

Only, the flaw in your theory is the cinder block is what is caving in your skull, not the three holes.

KC

John Blackthorne

04-09-2003, 06:30 PM

Originally posted by pjorourke
JB, Bus?

Yes

JB

Wwanderer

04-09-2003, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by John Blackthorne
Yes

I thought PJ was asking a rhetorical question.

-Ww

h. von bingen

04-09-2003, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by Wwanderer
I thought you said you were gonna be a guy next time, so I imagined that I would have to be...

well, not necessarily . . . but, really, i just forgot i said i would be the boy.

hers and hers and his,
hvb

John Blackthorne

04-09-2003, 07:13 PM

Maybe.

All lost now anyway..just bittersweet memories.

JB

JohnnyK

04-10-2003, 02:55 AM

Originally posted by justme
You forgot to post as JohnyK. That's obviously an inappropriate question, but the answer is 'no'.

Are you sure it wasn't Kimmie?

BTW- There's 2 n's in my name buster.

Thorn

04-10-2003, 04:17 AM

Originally posted by Judge Crater
(The Celts have been in charge of Heaven for a long time.)

Actually, its the Native Americans. We only let the Celts think they are in charge.

But, then again, I am both so I have an in either way.

[dumb grin]

pswope

04-10-2003, 04:18 AM

Originally posted by Wwanderer
1 - 4: HUGE DITTO!

-Ww

IBID.Again,when you learn to trust and allow( & teach another to), you can experience the type of [imperfect] love FW describes.

ps- Tommy Mottola should be available in about 4 months and I know where Andy Lack lives.

Great posts, btw.

(btw- being an intellectual or well educated doesn't not mean that one knows jack about love or relationships. In fact, that may be contraindicated)

SW

I am both a shook and a shnook( as well as schmok,according to my asian bud), but so are youifyou don'tsegregate yourbusiness & persoanl cellys

*********

04-10-2003, 04:56 AM

Originally posted by pswope
SW

I am both a shook and a shnook( as well as schmok,according to my asian bud), but so are youifyou don'tsegregate yourbusiness & persoanl cellys

Sweetheart I have 5 cell phones, but made the mistake of not blocking the one I used at the time so yes sir I am.

oddfellow4870

04-10-2003, 05:24 AM

Originally posted by justme
she leaned in to kiss me. This is where she won me over completely.

I have had the exact same experience and only once. And it was with a Korean sex worker.

Wwanderer must have an opinion on this. Why and where can we find more?

pswope

04-10-2003, 05:52 AM

Originally posted by oddfellow4870
I have had the exact same experience and only once. And it was with a Korean sex worker.

Wwanderer must have an opinion on this. Why and where can we find more?

It's really difficult to fake an intended passionate kiss. That is why
it is often the best litmus test for crossing the line

fallenwoman

04-10-2003, 06:02 AM

FWIW: I meant to say melt. Like as in melting together.
xo

Wwanderer

04-10-2003, 06:09 AM

Originally posted by John Blackthorne
All lost now anyway..just bittersweet memories.

Yeah...not unlike jm's provider romance. (How's that for a thread pick-up?)

-Ww

Wwanderer

04-10-2003, 06:18 AM

Originally posted by oddfellow4870
I have had the exact same experience and only once. And it was with a Korean sex worker. Wwanderer must have an opinion on this. Why and where can we find more?

You can find an almost limitless supply here (http://www.visitseoul.net/).

-Ww

Wwanderer

04-10-2003, 06:26 AM

Originally posted by pswope
It's really difficult to fake an intended passionate kiss. That is why
it is often the best litmus test for crossing the line

It may be more difficult than faking real passion in other acts, but I don't think it is all that hard given a bit of practise. All the ladies (maybe 2 dozen) I necked with in Tokyo's kissing clubs a few years back kissed liked they wanted to have my babies. Of course, they "practised" several hours per day, 6 days per week for months or years on end.

It might be that kissing is somehow felt to be less intimate/personal in Asia. I don't really know but would be willing to do some more field research (after the SARS epidemic passes).

-Ww

pswope

04-10-2003, 06:51 AM

Originally posted by Sexywhore
Sweetheart I have 5 cell phones, but made the mistake of not blocking the one I used at the time so yes sir I am.

Baby
You have more cellies than Russell Simmons (who is reported to have one permenantlyattached to his ear) Hope you have one of those roll over corp plans that allow you to aggreagte minutes.

Slinky Bender

04-10-2003, 07:13 AM

"Sincerity: if you can fake it, you've got it made."

Geezy Muldoon

04-10-2003, 07:14 AM

Originally posted by Thorn
Actually, its the Native Americans. We only let the Celts think they are in charge.

But, then again, I am both so I have an in either way.

[dumb grin]

My father always told me I was 1/16th Seneca Indian. He actually looked it. Black, black hair, high cheekbones, brown eyes, hairless body.

Some French Guy (a ********* by trade) got himself a wife out of a convent in Canada circa 1860.

So I may be covered anyway.

The French were like that. They'd marry anyone.

Geezy Muldoon

04-10-2003, 07:27 AM

Originally posted by justlooking
I don't think ANYBODY (who's read his stuff, anyway) seriously disagrees with that.

While those who've read Mrs. Chong's Debut have complimented it thus far, I was always hoping to get SR's comments. He has been, I think, a professional screenwriter for much of his adult life.

My sense of words when being creative is almost entirely poetic and anarchistic. I was hoping that SR would tear me a few new assholes and tell me what was weak and stupid about the play.

Before I wrote the play, my only experience in crafting drama was in playing Barbies with my daughter. We'd sit together for hours at at time while I invented stories (drawing on Shakespeare and classic horror movies usually) and matching dialogue. I did all the voices.

She found this hugely entertaining. As a result, her sense of humor is, how shall I put it, unique.

She's too old to play Barbies now.

I miss playing Barbies.

oddfellow4870

04-10-2003, 07:42 AM

It's quite apparent that the creative writer's workshop has changed its address.

Geezy Muldoon

04-10-2003, 07:44 AM

jm:

Good narrative.

Tell me, what did you really dislike about your lover? What character defects did she suffer from? What were her annoying personal habits that drove you up a wall?

Best, etc

JC

pjorourke

04-10-2003, 08:51 AM

Originally posted by Judge Crater
I was always hoping to get SR's comments. He has been, I think, a professional screenwriter for much of his adult life.
Who is SR?

Geezy Muldoon

04-10-2003, 08:55 AM

KC:

Agreed. One can be "in love" with more than one person at a time. It's also true that there are many types of love. I know these things from my own personal experience.

It is difficult to manage, though. One must always try to behave responsibly towards those one loves.

You have to be a little like the character John Hurt played in the first Harry Potter movie, The Sorcerer's Stone. You have to search your shop for the wand which is just perfect for each person you love so that they can master their own power and best solve their own puzzle.

Love is all about making other's more comfortable, less needy, less fearful, more confident, etc. The focus is on giving of oneself and empowering the other.

The problem with love between johns and hookers is that there is a pre-disposition to an inordinate amount of neediness and compulsiveness on john's parts. This does not, I fear, help a prostitute confront her own neediness and compulsion.

At best, it may only make her feel powerful. That feeling of power is, at best, only a sort of booby prize and does little to provide long lasting soothing and healing of the sort that occurs in functioning, healthy non-commercial relationships.

The work of love becomes problematic in such circumstances.

Best, etc.

Judge Crater

pswope

04-10-2003, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by pjorourke
Who is SR?

Social Register,who is pretty much acknowledged to be the best writer on PMBs. Many,including myself, would pay to read his reviews. He's the Raymond Chandler of this oeuvre.

pjorourke

04-10-2003, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by pswope
Social Register,who is pretty much acknowledged to be the best writer on PMBs. Many,including myself, would pay to read his reviews. He's the Raymond Chandler of this oeuvre.

Where does he post?

Geezy Muldoon

04-10-2003, 09:31 AM

He has a handle here. (I forget what it is.)

Like Aristotle, he only posts on JAG now.

I haven't seen either of them post there lately.

Two of SR's reviews knocked me out.

The first was of his erotic encounter with a socialite in her 70s. In this review, he recounts how he slowly recoiled in horror at realizing how old this woman was.

(He hates it when anybody mentions this review. I still think it's the best review I've ever read on a PMB.)

The second review was of an agency ******. In that review, he began by recounting how his heart went pitter patter as he made the appointment. In closing, he told of how he snuck around the corner of the hotel hallway to hear the prostitute use the same exact line as she greeted her next john.

It was something like "You look exactly like I pictured you."

Priceless.

pswope

04-10-2003, 09:32 AM

Mostly on the Old JAG(don't know if he still posts there). He's also posted here under a different handle. But none of his literary reviews.

justlooking

04-10-2003, 09:55 AM

If it's hard to simulate passionate volitional kissing, then I must be attractive.

h. von bingen

04-10-2003, 10:13 AM

i think u can start pretending and then actually get into it. this is true with sex too. yr body takes over from yr mind.

hombre tells me stories about inna's "genuine reactions" ie goose bumps, shallow breathing etc. the reactions don't mean that the girl likes u, rather, one's body is going to react to certain kinds of stimuli. this is why i always laugh when hobbyists talk about how much a provider likes daty. yeah maybe u'll get wet, maybe yr pussy will swell, but that still doesn't mean yr enjoying it with that particular person. and this is really why hobbyists who are certain they make providers come is particularly hilarious. a girl can have the external indicia and not actually get there. coming is more than a few goose bumps and a wet pussy.

purely volitional,
hvb

justlooking

04-10-2003, 10:20 AM

That's actually kinda what I meant.

(Did hombre say anything about minnows?)

justlooking

04-10-2003, 10:25 AM

Or, as a prostitute I know told me she told her boyfriend when he asked if she ever came with johns: "You rub a stick and a stone together, you get a physical reaction. Doesn't mean anything."

Happy Hooker

04-10-2003, 10:37 AM

You have no idea how weird it is to see justme post the name Kimmie, and speak of her the way he has...

It gives me the willys..

pswope

04-10-2003, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by justlooking
If it's hard to simulate passionate volitional kissing, then I must be attractive.

That's what I hear.

(or else you're exceptionally proficient at a multitude of sexual acts-and really sexy)

One of the problems with all of these philosophy/zeitgeist of whoring generalizations is that most of us(atleast johns),who post about this shit are so egocentric that we extrapolate what we claim to be universal verities from our own experiences.

Geezy Muldoon

04-10-2003, 11:24 AM

hvb:

FWIW, you can tell hombre that I always thought Inna's performances were shallow and predictable.

(I did love the minnows swimming in the mouth* kissing, though.)

Except to note that it doesn't apply to jl and ps who are among the world's most attractive men and most fervent lovers, I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment concerning prostitute's performances.

I've been seeing this one prostitute lately who has this low moaning self-hypnotic whimper thing going whenever I'm doing her doggie style.

I could dismount and substitute any one of a thousand Indian newstand dealers in NYC in my place.

She'd no doubt continue making the same exact sound upon insertion of his member.

But I like to take it personally.

Silly me.

JC

*I coined this phrase to describe Inna's kisses by adopting a description from Robert Graves (I think that's the author) of the Emperor Tiberius at bath on the Isle of Capri. I won't go into details about the bath, but Tiberius earned the right to be murdered.