going for the golden bough

[guy catelli]

i will begin my quest for the gold with a nod to frog. awhile back he asked if "looks" matter to me in the choice of a woman with whom to share time and companionship.

the answer to this question is "yes".

again, the relevant metaphor here is that a date with an escort is, for some of us, a collaboration in improvisational performance art.

some say that performance art is nothing more than an 'act', as if 'pretending' in order to be paid money were the sum total of the performing arts.

and yet, to say that show business is not merely about business, is not to deny that the appearance of the actress, singer, dancer, etc, is a component of her magical powers over not only her audience, but also her collaborator(s), as well.

[Edited by guy catelli on 02-03-2001 at 10:16 AM]

[Rufus Moses]

I don't want to get into the dreaded "what is art?" debate here...

But I know what art isn't, and it isn't sex. And it certainly isn't paid-for sex.

( but anything can be art No! No, it can't!)

I hope this is just another one of your misguided "romantic" metaphors.

[Ozzy]

wait a minute rufus......

i've left some fine art works on floors after some rough nights of drinking.

my last one was outside the roseland ballroom the night i was supposed to meet J. 23 shots of Jacks can create some masterpieces.

[guy catelli]

[see what happens when i don't add a lot of extraneous bs? -- RM starts to call me on my sh*t!]

Originally posted by Rufus Moses:[/B]
I don't want to get into the dreaded "what is art?" debate here...

i don't blame you, RM. but, the tone and tenor of what those on both sides of the great debate have been saying is very similar to debates about 'commercial art' vs. 'high art' {that have been raging for five centuries, btw}. is it possible that this similarity in the tone and rhetoric of the debates is precisely because the underlying issues are themselves very similar?

But I know what art isn't, and it isn't sex. And it certainly isn't paid-for sex.

fine -- but this begs the question, which is not: does sex4$ = art?; but rather: is something going on, for some couples, some of the time, that is way more than just sex4$?

but anything can be art....(No! No, it can't!)

i couldn't agree more, RM. but, that doesn't necessarily mean that Jackson Pollock http://www.barewalls.com/cgi-bin/clientdetails.exe?ItemID=13208&zoom=1 and, at the opposite end of the spectrum, Roy Lichtenstein http://192.41.13.240/artchive/l/lichtenstein/inthecar.jpg aren't artists just because there was a vast chorus of voices (most of which were *very* angry voices ;)) that insisted they were just fakin' it 4$, and, to continue the analogy, that their admirers were merely suckers that were being taken in. {btw, in those two cases, who looks 'foolish' now?}

I hope this is just another one of your misguided "romantic" metaphors.

for the moment, i'm willing to put the 'performance art' metaphor on the shelf (without permanently discarding it).

let's look at the 'craft' metaphor. even *mr. p* averred that pride in craft could be present in some cases, and that this was an element that transcended mere sex4$.

the 'craft' metaphor allowed mr p to continue to disdain any notions of Romanticism, while nonetheless conceding that repeated multihour dates with the same escort can't possibly be *only* about sex4$.

but, imo, the most relevant metaphor, and one which i have employed in the past that has been *mysteriously* ignored, is the therapeutic metaphor.

yeah, the Park Avenue cosmetologist and the doctor practicing poverty medicine in Appalachia both have to have food, clothing, and shelter, and therefore both have to charge money for their healing services.

but, i think the view that all healers {or lawyers or politicians or ministers, et al} are *only* 'doing it for the money', without any personal feelings for any client, at any time is a view that is clulessness masquerading as hard-headed realism.

[guy catelli]

ref: http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2552#post2552

[QUOTE]Originally posted by justme:
Guy - are you willingly forgetting our very lengthy discussion on the the sociological implications of certain words?

no; i was busy with more important things -- in particular, trading fluffballs with escorts. i felt there was no need for a speedy reply, as i consider your case to now be hopeless, your having spent too much of your time with the wrong element elsewhere -- even though i cautioned you that this was likely to result.

however, i see you as an object lesson for newbies who want to know what to avoid, so i am taking considerable time away from fluffball trading to respond to you.

Of course I understand the issue of loaded terminology.

yes, you do, when applied in *any* context but this one. the very common sense obviousness of this issue in this context, and your inherent intelligence, are precisely what cause one to wonder what is the nature of the 'blockage' at work here.

The only point I usually try to make is that this is not mixed company. Everyone here is comfortable with what's going on, and so I don't see a need to pretty things up for each other.

no problem. as a survey of prior postings makes clear, UG stands in no danger of becoming excessively prudish in terminology. see, for example, my own contribution to terminological candor: ref: http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1854#post1854

of course part of the charm of this thing of ours is that allows for, and even encourages, greater intergender candor. but, and this cannot be overemphasized, permission to engage in a certain verbal familiarity with *any* woman is always conditional and revocable at will and without prior notice.

I don't like being called a spick, wetback, beener, or greaser. When people ask for my race, I usually reply, 'Mexican-American'. Now, here in Texas there used to be (and sadly still are) restaurants that you could walk into that would proclaim, 'No dogs or Mexicans allowed'. Similarly, I have been referred to as, 'Hey, you Mexican,' on occasion. So to many Texans of direct(?) European descent, 'Mexican' is an insult. On the other hand, everyone in my family calls each other a Mexican, my friends (most of whom are not Mexican) call me a Mexican, and for the most part, unless offense was intended, I would not be offended by a stranger reffering to me as a Mexican (as a side note, Mexican nationals are usually offended by my being referred to as a Mexican, but that's a whole different issue).

when *we* call *each other* by an epithet others have used to humiliate and lessen respect for us, we are speaking in the first person *i/us*. in this case, we are both bonding closer together, and, at the same time, we are *neutralizing* the power these words might otherwise have over us. in other words, we are using the labels 'inclusively'. when someone to whom the label does not stick gets in our face and calls us that, they are being 'exclusionary', as in ~*you* aren't like *us* -- you're inferior.~ the same applies in the context of an asp-board.

So whether or not I'm insulted by being called a Mexican comes on a case by case basis, with context giving me a clue as to how I should react.

indeed; and, if you tell someone with blonde hair, blue eyes, and pink skin that you would prefer that they desist, and yet they obnoxiously persist, that should give you a "clue".

I understand why a providor wouldn't want to be labled a whore, ho, or street-walker. I don't understand the objection to the term, 'prostitute', in the context of these boards however, because I just don't see how any of us are using it pejoritively.

1. *you* don't *need* to understand why a group of which you are not a member wants you to call them 'this' and *not* 'that'. you just need to decide whether you *want* to get along with members of that group, or if you want to *alientate* them by getting in their face and calling them something they just told you they didn't want to be called.

2. don't worry, *they* will be understanding, because you have made clear that:

a. you're a math nerd, in itself a virtually infallible litmus test for a male's being clueless about women;

b. you have spent so much time reading books in and out of school that no one would expect you to have an ounce of common sense -- especially about women; and

c. you did postgraduate work at a 'school' where men who can't score-with-a-whore (even after showering her with a ridiculous sum of money if *that's* all they were looking for) share their 'secrets' for failure.

As to the issue of stratification by appelation, I would suggest that my referring to myself as a proletariot won't make me so (although I am often accused of taking a 'prolier than though' attitude).

you have confuted two different issues:

1. is a particular police officer really the 'officer and a gentleman' his applellation imples?; and

2. what message you are sending him {and what reaction from him you can reasonably expect} if you persist in calling him "copper", when he has repeatedly told you that he would rather you not.

Besides the whole notion of discrete class structure makes me nauseous.

mr p said he was made nauseous by the thought of a client bringing a $10 bunch of roses to an escort.

[K.S.]

But, Rufus, what *is* art? LOL!

I got your email. I'm at work - no time to give you the long reply it deserves. I agree with everything you said.

But - what is art? C'mon! Let's debate! I can take ya! I was an art history major.

;-)

[Coyote]

Ozzy - Funny post. That's why it's sometimes called the technicolor yawn. With 23 shots of Jack's in ya you must have painted a pretty picture. As Bogie used to say, "it's nothing a little bourbon and soda couldn't cure."

[Rufus Moses]

Reading UG at work? Why you little cybergeek you!

And they said that art history degree wouldn't get you anywhere...hah! You show'ed 'em...

(Obviously kidding here...I also have unmarketable degrees...)

I once went out with an art history grad, and she said "it doesn't really matter what the artist thinks about his own work. *We* decide what it means".

The scary thing is...she isn't far from right...

sleepy time...

-rufus

[guy catelli]

[Edited by guy catelli on 03-07-2001 at 02:05 PM]

[guy catelli]

the excessive pessimism that i expressed above notwithstanding, it warms the cockles of my sentimental heart to see what a source of wisdom, concise common sense, appropriate board conduct, and overall goodwill justme has become :).

[boris]

Sorry, I'm not following this discussion real well, but there are two branches of the bough I did follow.

1. Do looks matter in an escort?

2. Can escorting be brought to the level of art?

Having followed thousands of escort reviews and done some exploring on my own, the answer about looks is pretty clearly yes. The thing that I find surprising is that they matter less than you'd think. Whatever you think of various top ten lists in cyberescorting, I'm still amazed that most of the stars in the business are closer to forty than thirty. I'm also surprised by the number of ladies who aren't conventionally beautiful who appear to make a pretty reasonable living out there. Both those facts suggest that there is certainly skill and more likely some kind of art involved.

Frankly, a lot of unartful stuff has been produced in the name of art for art's sake. Dickens, Mozart, Picasso, and countless others very often worked quite blatantly for money. A lot of that product is now part of the canonical "this is real art". I'd say that the thing that's different about escorting isn't the money, it's the fact that the experience isn't one that's readily shared with those who weren't there and the fact that the audience and the artist are much more mutually engaged in the creation, ie a bad client can wreck the work of even the most artful escort.
In our talk about the hobby, there tends to be a lot of discussion about what and how many. I'd have to say that the art lies in the how well. It turns artful when there's both a pleasurable physical release, but also a psychological release and no I'm not talking about the dominatrix thing. I've now probably had more than fifty hobbying experiences (assume that puts me in the low middle here) since the 1980's. While the vast majority of those were very pleasurable (I've been lucky) and some of them even mutually passionate, it's crossed into the artful only a couple times. The most recent was with Charley who also happened to be the best looking escort, at least to my taste, I've met. I don't have a laundry list of things she did. In fact, she was a little more reserved than I would have expected.
How do I put this?
I'd say in the business most men come for physical gratification when they were really seeking something else. Managing both in the course of an hour or two with a near stranger who may or may not be to your personal taste has got to be something of an art.

[guy catelli]

[Edited by guy catelli on 03-09-2001 at 12:50 AM]

[guy catelli]

"What a marvelous metaphor. Truly creative writing..."

littleguy, you crack me up, man.

[guy catelli]

Angels of Compassion, at great risk to themselves, tend to the spiritual longings of lonely working-class men who are far from home and family.

see: http://www.nytimes.com/pages/nyregion/index.html

{(free) registration required}

[boris]

Disturbing article Guy. Now I'm really confused by this thread though. Can't make heads or tails of some of the later posts.
Am I missing something?

[guy catelli]

Boris,

sometimes i have a comment or info that i don't feel warrants a thread of its own. i've posted 2 catch-all threads for this purpose.

the first one was called "'quickies' (going for the silver!)" -- http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=113 -- because each new post was advancing me toward the rank of silver.

once i advanced to silver, i posted this one, in the quest for the gold. 'the golden bough', as you know, is an allusion to Fraser's classic work on mythology http://www.oup-usa.org/isbn/0192835416.html

i better stop here, or Tankcommander might call my boss and ask him why i'm doing this instead of working ;).

[Tankcommander]

Your boss is probably reading this, oblivious to the fact that most of these posts are coming in from the office right down the hall. But, for all you know, he's earning his gold bagde as we speak

[Carl M]

GC, how many jobs do you have my MOT brother!

[TuckernotSucker]

The real art is us guys. The stories we weave around our real lives to: 1) Afford this hobby. 2) Find the right women. and 3) Make the time available.
And then there is the art of the "Penus". Most of the providers appreciate this art.
That is to say nothing about the art of understanding Mr. Catelli's posts.

[Carl M]

Hey Tucker- you finally did it- now you won't have to kneel and kiss Dawns toes anymore! Oh yeah by the way thanks for the Pastrami Sandwich! But you know I would have like the Cutie for desert!!

[TuckernotSucker]

I told you desert was on me. And she will be.

[Carl M]

Do me a favor, scream out," Carl this ones for you" when you see her!!

[guy catelli]

TC, did you see this: http://www.*********.net/newyork/posts/24092.html ?

[guy catelli]

see: http://www.*********.net/newyork/posts/25360.html

[Tankcommander]

The writing style on the webpage matches the style on the post.

Also, the description of the don'ts is a particularly "self-post" thing to do.

I also did a search on the poster... Chadwick 45... his only post in the last 2 years is this one...

I did a search on all posts on Kiara for the last 4 years... other than 2 ISO's, two more names came up... some guy named cooper and another named DKFR. Of course, the only posts these 2 guys made in the past 2 years were one single post each about Kiara...

Makes you kind of wonder...

About Alyssa,

Some may not like her, but I've only had good interactions with her. She is a businesswoman and only trying to do the things that every businessman or businesswoman it trying to so. I wish her the best of luck.

[Slinky Bender]

TC,
Another clue: "Her fee is $500 for 1 1/2 hours, but she usually stays longer, from what i hear". Why would someone talk about "from what i hear" rather than say what their own experience was, if they had one?

[Tankcommander]

Like I said,
My IQ is a little below average...

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by slinkybender
...."Her fee is $500 for 1 1/2 hours, but she usually stays longer, from what i hear". Why would someone talk about "from what i hear" ....when i first read that, i thought to myself that this newbie really needs help with self-posting.

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Tankcommander
Like I said,
My IQ is a little below average...


I wonder if depleted uranium has anything to do with it?

[Tankcommander]

and eating cheese charges stolen from mortar units...

[guy catelli]

see: http://www.nydailynews.com/today/News_and_Views/Crime_File/a-107628.asp

[guy catelli]

from this: http://www.*********.net/newyork/posts/25398.html

to this: http://www.*********.net/newyork/posts/25516.html

.... in less than 48 hours. is this a pretext for throwing in her hand in the face of a fast shrinking market? or, did she really accept some guy's inducement to leave the business?

anyone know of cases like these?

[SkellyChamp]

this thing of ours ...


CAVATELLIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

it's been a while

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by SkellyChamp
CAVATELLIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!!!!!!!!!http://www.bartleby.com/61/47/C0174700.html ???