The Downfall of the Underground

[Slinky Bender]

The Manhattan "Underground Scene" has definitvely gone way downhill after a very brief "hot period". Elswhere is cyberspace, a discussion started when someone blamed the promoters. While out of respect for the privacy of that venue I won't repost the discussion, it started with a guy basically blaming the promoters, and asking "Is underground still underground? Does anybody still care about a perv on a budget? In the meantime I resort to cheaper alternatives til some the inflationary tendencies get under control."

I don't have any compunctions about reposting my response, though:

I actually think there's something slighlty different at work here. I
think what might be more of the problem than the "promoter end" is the "dancer end", but it's a double edged sword.

Not all that long ago, the underground was the undeground, blow jobs were $30 or $40 lap and wall dances were $5, etc.

But everyone wanted more "mainstream" (read whatever racial, etc. connotations you want into that) girls, so they were recruited from the mainstream clubs. At the same time, mainstream guys were recruited, who were used to paying $200 to $300 for an hour of FS at some incall spot (as N2N would call tehm "The UG guys"). The result was that not only did these girls ask and get substantially more money, but even the decent looking "underground girls" who had previously been "happy" (let's just accept that euphamism - whether it was really "happy" or just "accepting of" or whatever) were now asking the same prices (I think one potential "milestone" was when the Japanese girls started getting $80 for blowjobs).

So, you used to be able to go "someplace" spend $40 or $50 for
entrance and unlimitted VIP usage, get a bunch of laps and 3 trips to the VIP for "various activities" for another $130 to $150, and feel like you had a wild night for under $200. Now, I think by the time you're in the door, get a drink, 2 laps and a VIP, you're at the same amount (i.e. around $200 total). As a result, I think possibly a bunch of guys are wondering why they paid $200 for some mediocre sex for 15 minutes in a semi-public room, when they could have gone to some incall, gotten a private room, a shower, much better sex (2 pops, etc). So, I think that's what's stopping a bunch of the guys (in addition, I think that a bunch of guys are seeing the same girls for "private sessions" for not much more than the same girls want for 15 minutes in the VIP).

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think it's the promoters and
*their* pricing schemes which have altered the market, but the rapid rise in the dancer's prices which have squeezed their own "gold egg laying gooses" a little too tightly. Personally, I've been finding tha the VFM quotient (value for money) of the sexual services provided by MANY of the girls to be lacking (i.e. they think that for $80 they should give a covered, jackhammer BJ, and theguy should be happy if it lasts 10 minutes). Compare this to incall places where the girls get $90 to $150 of the fee, and spend a complete hour of service with some "real" artificial affection thrown in.

Of course, this is a generalization, and there are girls who spend
much longer in the VIP without complaining, etc (they certainly have with me), but I think those girls are becoming the minority. I also think that this is a "vicious cycle", and you see a lot of girls
either making a few bucks and bolting the spot for the night, or
siting in the dressing room and complaining about the guys. I know that i've heard a bunch of girls who really haven't been around the "more upscale" places too long at all complaining that they wouldnt go to any events in Brooklyn anymore because all the "broke asses" wanted BJs for $40. I think if they aren't careful, they may end up with only places like that left to go to.

And I really don't think there are enough "higher end guys" who will both go to "underground spots" and "VIP" at those spots to "go around" and populate all the events. I think the promoters are working harder and harder, and the girls are getting either smarter or lazier, depending on how you look at it, and which girls we're talking about.

[popeye]

Slink,

In support of your point I’d present the popularity of the, now infamous and busted, Bridgeport clubs like Teddies. Although I am not an expert in this market sector of the hobby, I did notice the sudden rush by adherents of the underground scene to new territories in New Jersey and Connecticut. Which led me to believe there was an issue with pricing. Originally I assumed the expense of an evening in the underground scene was comparable to the expenditure typically encountered during a visit to a CT club. Only to discover, this was not the case at all. If anything it was close to double the cost for less consistent service. In my opinion, the majority of guys who do this are not looking to get bankrupt. Nor do they feel like getting fleeced.

I actually thought the reason for the higher overall cost of the underground scene was all the middlemen involved from the promoters to the girl’s handlers. But based on your post I can see a new dynamic at work. This is a very simple and clear example of the forces of classic commerce at work. The influx of a new economic demographic willing to spend at a higher level inexorably led to inflated prices overall. This is a very interesting analysis of a case study with a very solid rationalization to explain a phenomenon.

If only they recognized this market for what it is they may have preserved it for quite some time, and possibly draw many new adherents. Simply put, it is a discount market that operates under low profit margins, with a high volume of sales and built on building a repeat customer base. Just like Teddies and the other Jersey clubs. Where the owners can make money from selling drinks and the like. Also I found the entry fee for these places quite ridiculously on the high side.

Good post,

Regards,

Pop

[nycstripclubs]

Slinky,

I've got 3 words for you.

FORTY DOLLAR ANAL.

You definitely CAN have the wild evening you speak of if you hit the outer borough spots like 8-ball (now closed) and 243 (when they offer VIP).

I don't think the price structure has really changed much in the Manhattan parties from a year ago It's pretty much always been 40-60 & 70-100 with a very few exceptions. MANY will ASK for more but will often accept far less than they ask for. You usta be able to NEGOTIATE 30 & 50 in outer borough and uptown spots and probably still can. That kinda pricing in Manhattan was unusual. $5 laps are pretty much gone, but you can get a $5 lap if you tip $1 at a time. $5 wall dances and $10 laps are commonplace. Again, many will ASK for $20 but will accept $10. The mainstream girls were ALWAYS at the upper end of the spectrum. The dancers also size up the customer's wallet and price accordingly.

Of course, supply and demand are ALWAYS very much in effect, and pricing is also subject to the dancers specific need such as having some bill due. There are plenty of bargains to be had for those who take the time to survey the situation and pick the appropriate target.

Because the dancers can set their own pricing, it's encumbant upon the customer to get the best deal they can from a given dancer. The Underground Parties are not a prix fixe menu like a traditional whore house. If hondling doesn't appeal to you, you'll end up paying more.

As far as costs go $20 door, $20 VIP, two / three drinks $20 with plenty of free gropage especially if you give one of those drinks to the dancer, two $10 laps, and $50 head or $70 F/S over the course of a coupla hours still leaves you change from the $200-$300 you'd spend for an hour with a regular provider. If you just want to get the "job" done, you can get by for $100 or so. It's not as cheap as a 1F or Episode, but you get WAY more selection and variety to pick from.

The underground scene isn't for everybody. It's HIGHLY variable from one day to the next because the girls go where they THINK they can make money. So you NEVER know which specific dancer will be in attendance at any given spot. Guys who don't like the uncertainty, won't be happy with this scene. But guys who are willing to try to play the game, pushing the envelope and go with the flow really enjoy it.

Peace,
Valjean

[Slinky Bender]

I have to disagree with you on this. From what I'm seeing, things really have SUBSTANTIALLY changed in the last year to yea and a half, in that if you really wanted to find $40 BJ's at almost any place, including the Manahattan "regular" spots, you could, and could rather easily. Your "$40 anal" is exactly my point. That's something which was available, and without all that much effort to boot, not all that long ago at "the most mainstream of the underground" not too long ago, while recently a girl actually tol me "NO" to a $40 HJ!!!!!!!!!!! (that's actually the biggest thing "behind" my initial post about this subject).

Of course not only is my "evidence" annecdotal, but it's based on a limitted sample size. Nonetheless, I really, really do see a "hardening" of the price structure behind MANY/MOST (if not close to ALL) of the girls at these events. It used to be just about a given that MANY of the girls would give BJ's for $40 and could possibly be bargained down to $30. Now, the majority will not only ask for $60, but tell guys to drop dead at $40.

I've also noticed that a surprising number seem to think that they should be getting $100 for FS, and that this amount should only be good for 15 minutes. Again, this is as opposed to that "$40 anal".

[azzure]

One of my black pimp friends invited me to one of those far-flung underground clubs. This one was in Freeport LI in a place that doubles as a recording studio.

When I walked in it was like - what the fuck is a white dude doin here. Anyway the point is that its just like the asian places. Damn discrimination. They see a .white dude and jack up the prices accordingly. $40 anal may have been available there but I'd have been hard-presed to get it. Even if they will otherwise do it for that, they get resentful if they think you can pay more and don't.

[azzure]

As soon as I walked in every pimp and hoe in the place looked at me and the reflection in thier eyes said MARK!!!

[nycstripclubs]

Azzure, you have no idea how many times I've found myself in the exact same situation. That's when the "GAME" is at it's best. They KNOW you have money and they're gonna try to get as much of it outa you as they can. It's up to YOU to get the most mileage you can. I just LOVE playing that game, maybe even more than the outcome.

As far as their getting "resentful", that's just part of the game. Don't forget, there's almost always someone in the room willing to do whatever it is you want for what you're willing to pay (within reason). If there are enough girls, it's a HIGHLY competitive environment. I've had girls decline my offer and an hour later come back and ask me if I was still interested at MY price. If you've got game, that's when to tell them you want to pay LESS!

[Slinky Bender]

While having a conversation at one of these clubs with a girl who has been in the business a long time, I had sort of a ..... well, epiphany might be too dramatic, but.........


There may be some intergenerational clash which is causing an issue: as discussed before, the current gerneation of 20-somethings feels that BJ's aren't sex. The prior generation fealt that HJ's weren't sex. As a result, you've got a very large segment of the male population that feels like their "limit" on "activities" is HJ's. There's tons of guys who used to go to places like the Harmony or Tina's, etc. and get laps and HJ's, or even go to AMP's or other massage places and get HJ's, and not feel to guilty about "cheating". Similarly, there were LOTS of girls who didn't think of themselves as prostitutes if they limitted themselves to giving HJ's.

Two things happened recently which make me bring this up. The first was to a large extent what made me think of starting this thread in the first place: I was at a club, and a girl who was giving ne the hard sell for a VIP said "no" to an offer of $40 for HJ. I couldn't fucking believe it. But also, last time I was at another club, I was in the VIP fucking on of my current faves, and this guy "of a certain age" comes in with a popular girl and sits down next to us. She goes to give him a BJ, and he's like "No, I just want a HJ" (or something like that). She gets obviously flustered, says something like "Well, it's $60 anyway", and tries to give him a BJ anyway, which he resists........ I didn't pay much attention (hey, I was busy), but my impression was it ended pretty quickly after that with both parties frustrated.

Back to the conversation at the start of this post.... So we're talking, and I mention the "No" to $40 HJ incident (it was at that same club), and she couldn't believe it either. I then went on to ask about how many times girls were giving HJ's currently at the club, and we both sort of agreed that it didn't appear to be too common. My guess is that during the heyday of the club, there were 10 given a day, and now was probably more like 10 a month. Also, a lot of the older "regular" customers were the guys who were used to the "old style" Harmony way of doing things, and that those guys were the most notably absent from the scene lately.

Add to this the fact that there are all sorts of independant girls, who not only are only offering HJ's, but at significantly higher prices, leads me to belive that part of the problem is that the "purveyors" of services in this market have started to miss the mark in regards to what the consumer end (or at least a significant segment of the market) wants service wise.

Another example of this is that just so many of these grils have no clue how to give a HJ period. Again, i think this is somewhat generational: they never had to give HJ's on "real dates". 20 years ago, girls gave thier BF's HJ's at teh end of a date in lieu of sex, because HJ's weren't sex. Now, girls give their BF's BJ's at the end of dates since BJ's aren't sex. I almost get the feeling that with a lot of the current crop of dancers, when a guy asks for a HJ, they are thinking "A HJ? Why would anyone want a HJ?".

The other point is that even for guys who would do BJ's, there are many who have stated that they would prefer an uncovered HJ to a covered BJ, and the majority of these girls only do covered BJ's.

Sorry for the disjointedness of this post.

PS I'd be curious as to the response a club would get if they were a "HJ only" place, and got girls who were very good at doing that, and didn't press guys for any more. I'd be curious to see if a lot of the faces who used to show up 2-3 times a week at these places, but really have not seen around much anymore, would start becoming "regulars" to the scene again.

[nycstripclubs]

Originally posted by slinkybender
There may be some intergenerational clash which is causing an issue: as discussed before, the current gerneation of 20-somethings feels that BJ's aren't sex.

Thank Bill Clinton for bringing that definition to MY generation.

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by nycstripclubs
Thank Bill Clinton for bringing that definition to MY generation.

I'm pretty sure you're kidding, but I really do think the impact of the difference in thinking about "where the line is" has been grossly underestimated.

[un4given]

Hey VJ how do you know when Earl's 243 does VIP? Is there a schedule for that?

[nycstripclubs]

Originally posted by un4given
Hey VJ how do you know when Earl's 243 does VIP? Is there a schedule for that?

Now YOU've gotta be kidding.

It's hard enough to keep straight when and if they're even open.

[vermeer]

where da white wimmin at?

[Harmony Memories]

Originally posted by vermeer
where da white wimmin at?
Right next to the dudes willing to pay $300 for some trim

[Slinky Bender]

not true.

Real answer: truck stops from West Virginia to Florida. And they look like Charlize Theron (sort of).

[jseah]

they're also on Jerry Springer.........looks for the ones with no teeth.....

[Harmony Memories]

Originally posted by slinkybender
not true.

Real answer: truck stops from West Virginia to Florida. And they look like Charlize Theron (sort of).

Yeah, when Charlize played Aline Wuirnos

[nycstripclubs]

Originally posted by slinkybender
not true.

Real answer: truck stops from West Virginia to Florida. And they look like Charlize Theron (sort of).

http://www.charlizeonline.com/photos/public/press-junket/charlize-theron11.jpg

Kinda reminds me of Veronica

[un4given]

Originally posted by nycstripclubs
Now YOU've gotta be kidding.

It's hard enough to keep straight when and if they're even open.


I KNOW!!! Thats why when you mentioned that as a viable alternative to the downfall of the underground, I thought you knew something I didn't.

Oh well, at least we'll always have Big D!

[TC123]

Originally posted by nycstripclubs

I've got 3 words for you.

FORTY DOLLAR ANAL.

Gotta admit, there's a punchline I didn't see coming.

[theword]

I think the real problem, which relates to what Slinky said in his first post, is that mainstream mileage in NYC has gotten so low since the Times Square redevelopment and the related LE/zoning crackdown on clubs all over the city.

If you want to do ANYTHING in a club in NYC other than get an overpriced air dance, you have to go underground (I know there are a few exceptions, but the point is they are few).

So the underground is mixing two diverse clienteles -- people who want extras on-site (the traditional underground clientele) and people who just want a moderate-to-high mileage lap dance (who mostly come from more mainstream places and have different expectations).

[me again]

From the female perspective:
It started with the club owners charging the girls outrageously just for showing up to work. then we started getting the guys who only wanted the centerfold models and forgot that these girls wanted $80-100 for a simple CBJ(finished off with a HJ),so those of us who were not Playboy material had to raise our prices too. Its an unwritten law among whores.
Then we started getting all the really young and brainless girls who either did everything for stupid money or nothing and wanted the bank. Some of us wanted to set reasonable prices as a way to please both clients and girls.
$30-HJ
$40-CBJ
$50-75-BBBJ depending on if TC or not or anything else special with it.
But then the crackheads would give you a trip around the world for the price of a subway token and that would start fights. As if all that wasn't enough drama, the owners started to charge a lot more at the door so the clients stopped coming and well up went the price of your BJ again.

So it really was a a combo of different things and ultimately the intro of girls who for some reason are in denial about wht they do for a living and charge the most crazy amounts.And lets face it, you guys are part of the blame too. You pay anything as long as the face and body look good to you. I sure wouldnt even think about paying someone $300 for an hour, even if she was Angelina Jolie.
mercy

[me again]

P.S.
Anyone remember the really slimy dive under The Nugget on Times Square whre you could get a HJ for $5?? That was all you could get,though.

[Harmony Memories]

Originally posted by me again
P.S.
Anyone remember the really slimy dive under The Nugget on Times Square whre you could get a HJ for $5?? That was all you could get,though.

Was that the place on 42nd near 7th Ave (South of the street), where the Disney store later was ? It had open windows, and male hookers prowled the booths downstairs ?

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by me again
Then we started getting all the really young and brainless girls who either did everything for stupid money


There's a phrase for that.........


let's see.........


ummmmm......


OH, YEAH!!!

The Good Old Days ;)

[me again]

Originally posted by jjhunsecker
Was that the place on 42nd near 7th Ave (South of the street), where the Disney store later was ? It had open windows, and male hookers prowled the booths downstairs ?

Yeah, that's the place. The pretty boys had the downstairs and we girls had the upstairs. After the destruction of Times Square, I was never able to walk by the place and keep a str8 face. If those walls could talk......
mercy

[me again]

Originally posted by slinkybender
There's a phrase for that.........


let's see.........


ummmmm......


OH, YEAH!!!

The Good Old Days ;)

DAMN!!! I really set myself up for that one, didn't I. lol

The problem was that since they did anything for nothing,most of them were very careless and ended up getting sick and making others sick.
I think my biggest problem with this business/hobby has always been that I had a hard time seeing things just from the provider's side and the girls would get mad at me.
Personally, if I were a man doing the rent-for-sex thing, I would problably be the cheapest MO out there. But I would have no problem paying for the role playing/S&M sessions because to me that takes a lot more than just pretty outfits. There's a lot of pre-session work that goes into it .
Anyway, just my $.02.
mercy

[ereal_2000]

Originally posted by slinkybender
The Manhattan "Underground Scene" has definitvely gone way downhill after a very brief "hot period". Elswhere is cyberspace, a discussion started when someone blamed the promoters. While out of respect for the privacy of that venue I won't repost the discussion, it started with a guy basically blaming the promoters, and asking "Is underground still underground? Does anybody still care about a perv on a budget? In the meantime I resort to cheaper alternatives til some the inflationary tendencies get under control."

I don't have any compunctions about reposting my response, though:

I actually think there's something slighlty different at work here. I
think what might be more of the problem than the "promoter end" is the "dancer end", but it's a double edged sword.

Not all that long ago, the underground was the undeground, blow jobs were $30 or $40 lap and wall dances were $5, etc.

But everyone wanted more "mainstream" (read whatever racial, etc. connotations you want into that) girls, so they were recruited from the mainstream clubs. At the same time, mainstream guys were recruited, who were used to paying $200 to $300 for an hour of FS at some incall spot (as N2N would call tehm "The UG guys"). The result was that not only did these girls ask and get substantially more money, but even the decent looking "underground girls" who had previously been "happy" (let's just accept that euphamism - whether it was really "happy" or just "accepting of" or whatever) were now asking the same prices (I think one potential "milestone" was when the Japanese girls started getting $80 for blowjobs).

So, you used to be able to go "someplace" spend $40 or $50 for
entrance and unlimitted VIP usage, get a bunch of laps and 3 trips to the VIP for "various activities" for another $130 to $150, and feel like you had a wild night for under $200. Now, I think by the time you're in the door, get a drink, 2 laps and a VIP, you're at the same amount (i.e. around $200 total). As a result, I think possibly a bunch of guys are wondering why they paid $200 for some mediocre sex for 15 minutes in a semi-public room, when they could have gone to some incall, gotten a private room, a shower, much better sex (2 pops, etc). So, I think that's what's stopping a bunch of the guys (in addition, I think that a bunch of guys are seeing the same girls for "private sessions" for not much more than the same girls want for 15 minutes in the VIP).

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think it's the promoters and
*their* pricing schemes which have altered the market, but the rapid rise in the dancer's prices which have squeezed their own "gold egg laying gooses" a little too tightly. Personally, I've been finding tha the VFM quotient (value for money) of the sexual services provided by MANY of the girls to be lacking (i.e. they think that for $80 they should give a covered, jackhammer BJ, and theguy should be happy if it lasts 10 minutes). Compare this to incall places where the girls get $90 to $150 of the fee, and spend a complete hour of service with some "real" artificial affection thrown in.

Of course, this is a generalization, and there are girls who spend
much longer in the VIP without complaining, etc (they certainly have with me), but I think those girls are becoming the minority. I also think that this is a "vicious cycle", and you see a lot of girls
either making a few bucks and bolting the spot for the night, or
siting in the dressing room and complaining about the guys. I know that i've heard a bunch of girls who really haven't been around the "more upscale" places too long at all complaining that they wouldnt go to any events in Brooklyn anymore because all the "broke asses" wanted BJs for $40. I think if they aren't careful, they may end up with only places like that left to go to.

And I really don't think there are enough "higher end guys" who will both go to "underground spots" and "VIP" at those spots to "go around" and populate all the events. I think the promoters are working harder and harder, and the girls are getting either smarter or lazier, depending on how you look at it, and which girls we're talking about.

I agree on one point with Slinky. You can having an incredible session with an incall provider for 200 to 300 for the hour. You pretty much spend the same amount of money or maybe more at an underground club. I agree it is a place where you have to seek and bargain with the girl. You can say no and go to the next girl. Don't expect GFE, BBBJ but just plain sex. If you are lucky and get one that will do anything for the price you are a winner but that is rare. I meet one girl who did CBJ,FS for 100 but gave me a surprise when she did anal at no extra charge. Then you have another girl who wanted 150 for just anal no CBJ or FS. It all depends on the girl. The clubs can nickle and dime you from drinks, entrance fee, pay for VIP or semi rooms. I understand that management has to make money but we only have so much to spend until our next paycheck unless you are someone who has alot of money.

[Iorek]

Isnt that when you shove a couple of 20's up yer own ass??

Hands up if you've ever gotten a $40 anal at the underground??

[Iorek]

I sure hope the NYC underground picks itself up and creates something that is the envy of the east coast. I'm sure many of you guys realize that people come from as far away as Maryland and RI just to spend some time at these parties. We..uhmm..They lie to their loved ones and friends and spread the word about the emergency business trip you...uh..they have to make and "dont wait up, I'll be home about 6:00am".

Some events are hot some are okay, some girls are cool others are positively bit**es, waiting until you give them the loot to level a manual full of rules about what they dont do, "and you better cum in 10 minutes!". Granted, I'd never jerk a guy off for money but if thats something you choose as your present vocation roll up yer sleeves and earn your keeps!

Perhaps when the RNC comes and goes things will start getting back to normal. I'm pretty new to all this but I hear some of the older stories about how good things were before the reign of Giulianni! Fantastic service and reasonable prices; enough to keep you coming back twice a week! It'll be great to bring those back...

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by Iorek
Hands up if you've ever gotten a $40 anal at the underground??

[hardrobert]

Actually I have - $40 extra that is.

[jersey]

Originally posted by Iorek
Isnt that when you shove a couple of 20's up yer own ass??

Hands up if you've ever gotten a $40 anal at the underground??


i got it from honey(the girl with the dildos with lights) at ds*.

[BigMadM]

Im not a strip club kinda guy. Never have been.\
Not that long ago, for a buddies big birthday, the other 6 men, friends, associates, whatever, decided to take him to a club.
I went along, because I had no say in the matter, and to be honest, I like young girls shaking their ass.
I wont mention the club, or even the city, but it wasnt NY.
(gotta always be careful)
I get to the dingy place, and the girls were mostly WOCs, none of them what I consider good looking.
some had ok bodies, most had fat thighs, with big asses.
After a break, the second set of dancers start, more my speed, one or 2 young thin latinas, and I when I was offered a lap for 25 bucks, I refused, telling them my mother only lets me spend 10 bucks each for a lap dance.
The young latina told me to get my momma to give me a lap dance for 10 bucks, because she dont take less then 25.
I guess I approached it all wrong, but I was only trying to listen to what most mongers on this board discuss.
Just putting in my 2 cents.
(I pay a former stripper nice money to suck my dick, and she wont give me a lap dance, go figure that out, I cant.)

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by BigMadM
A) when I was offered a lap for 25 bucks, I refused, telling them my mother only lets me spend 10 bucks each for a lap dance.The young latina told me to get my momma to give me a lap dance for 10 bucks, because she dont take less then 25.
I guess I approached it all wrong, but I was only trying to listen to what most mongers on this board discuss.
Just putting in my 2 cents.

B) (I pay a former stripper nice money to suck my dick, and she wont give me a lap dance, go figure that out, I cant.)

A) You did exactly right. Based on her answer, I'd take an even money bet the lapdance would have sucked

B) She doesn't fuck stripclub customers, and she doesn't strip for "boyfriends" (even if those boyfriends "help her out with the rent"). She's trying to compartmentalize.

[BigMadM]

I must have gotten a nasty word passed along the girls that night,(an hour or so we were there) because none of them even approached me after that, and I never went to the VIP area, since I decided to stick to my guns. I was called stubborn, and I just told the others Im not that hardup for one of the fatsos to grind me. They even wanted to put up the money thinking I was too embarrassed to tellthem I had no money left, which wasnt the case of course, but I really thought a few of the girls would just accept it.
I think most of the men in the club just shelled out the money, so why would the girl or girls consider my half price offer.(made good business sense to me. If 15 men are offering you 25 bucks a dance, why see the one guy that offers only 10. I couldnt argue with their reasoning.)
im not that swift on strip clubs and how to work the girls, so I kept my mouth shut and just stood my ground, never getting a dance.
maybe it was a mistake, but these idiots I was with should only know my history.

[Slinky Bender]

I was having a conversation the other day in which I made a claim:

That to some extent, the "internet guys" ruined the underground (or at least the Manhattan/Middle Class/White customer oriented/pick some less offensive euphimism end). I think that when things were "hopping" with places like the harmony, etc. an awful lot of the guys were looking for one level above most of the mainstream clubs (where they would consider spending the high $ for the VIP rooms there). In other words "hard" lap dances and HJ's.

What it turned into was more like brothels with short service, where all the girls did everything with all the customers, and most were doing their best to not even hive lap dances but move on to fucking as soon as possible with as many customers as possible. And HJs? Forget HJs... most girls just look at you funny if you ask for that.

So why do I say the internet guys ruined it? Because it's mostly us who wanted more, faster and with more certainty. And that's exactly what we got.

[justlooking]

Ditto.

[ayemedroogie]

For the strip club “internet guys”, the pre Giuliani strip clubs fulfilled our needs quite well. It was the increased LE enforcement that actually forced us into the “underground”.

The strip club “internet guys” seemed quite happy with ASS-Con or a Tina’s type lap dance club with extras, that were just a step above the mileage of the Harmony. Having them populated with dancers that didn’t necessarily do all or any extras, made triage and pushing the envelope a large part of the fun.

It wasn’t until greater numbers of UG “mongers” got into the underground scene that some spots morphed into a quickie spot with lap dances. Most “mongers” can’t or won’t ever grok lap dance clubs in fullness.

[Slinky Bender]

For the strip club “internet guys”, the pre Giuliani strip clubs fulfilled our needs quite well. It was the increased LE enforcement that actually forced us into the “underground”.

I'm not sure of the timing on this: Rudy started shutting down the clubs in eanest in the Summer of 1998. Most of the "internet guys" didn't "find the underground" until ?2002?.

But NB: The important note is the entrance of ... as you say... “mongers” into what up untll some point was a HJ oriented milieu. But I think that to a very large part, those "mongers" were introduced into the mix thru the internet and may never have entered if not for the mixing of them and guys who had access to the UG. I also think that for some reason, the guys who really do represent the true "masses" are extremely under represented on the internet (at least the part of the internet that seems to influence those who make the decisions as to how "UG" clubs operate), and as such I think that the "loud" "mongers" effectuated a change which was not necessarily representative of the actual market preferences, nor what was good for the market as a whole.

[justlooking]

For the strip club “internet guys”, the pre Giuliani strip clubs fulfilled our needs quite well. It was the increased LE enforcement that actually forced us into the “underground”.

The strip club “internet guys” seemed quite happy with ASS-Con or a Tina’s type lap dance club with extras, that were just a step above the mileage of the Harmony. Having them populated with dancers that didn’t necessarily do all or any extras, made triage and pushing the envelope a large part of the fun.

It wasn’t until greater numbers of UG “mongers” got into the underground scene that some spots morphed into a quickie spot with lap dances. Most “mongers” can’t or won’t ever grok lap dance clubs in fullness.

Probably Slinkybender has already said this, but I'm SURE he didn't mean the Internet Strip Club Guys, but rather the Internet Prostitution Guys.

[Slinky Bender]

Probably Slinkybender has already said this.

Note to self, repeat ESL course.

[un4given]

I discovered the scene on my own, almost accidentally (befriended a girl whose sister worked at Cookoo's Nest in Brooklyn). UG is the first and only useful board that I had discovered on the web, and it was much later.

And as for me personally, HJ or high milage laps were NEVER the goal of underground clubbing. Even at Cookoos where for as little as 2 bucks I could get a wank at the stage, I always savored saving my large bills for the end of the night, when a lucky dancer would send me to heaven in the back room, and toward the end of CN's existence -- in the ladies room.

I dont know about you all, but I like the state of the underground today, except for the pricing that is shooting through the roof.

[justlooking]

Note to self, repeat ESL course.

What I meant is, when I posted that I hadn't yet read the rest of the thread to see if you'd posted anything. So rather than doing so, I decided to share my brilliant insight with the UG readership even if it meant repeating what you'd already said.

[Cloud Nine]

I decided to share my brilliant insight with the UG readership even if it meant repeating what you'd already said.

Youve never let that stop you before...

[Slinky Bender]

Thorn,
get off of jl's computer now.

[ayemedroogie]

I'm not sure of the timing on this: Rudy started shutting down the clubs in eanest in the Summer of 1998. Most of the "internet guys" didn't "find the underground" until ?2002?.

You're timing's off. I'd say that many of the "internet strip cliub guys" discovered the underground scene like Tina's, Medallius, 243, etc. in late 1998 or 1999 when the Harmony shut down. I discovered the hardcore UG scene sometime late in 1999 when I hit my first Big D event. More "internet strip club guys" followed with the ASS-Con field trips in late 2000 -2001. The rest is history.

[theword]

I think the problem is more that after 1998 or so, a hands-on lap dancing place like the Harmony would have to be run as an underground establishment. I suspect the thinking goes like this: "If I'm going to run an underground club/events and risk getting busted, I may as well allow extras to take place." If you're going to be treated by LE as if you are allowing extras regardless of whether or not you do, you might as well let it happen and make the extra money.

There is also the issue of who is willing to work in an underground place. The girls who don't want to offer F/S don't seem to want to work events with the girls who do. There were some exceptions at ASSCON but not too many.

I'd really like to see a place come back where the stock in trade is a good lap dance, and the extras are either discreet or off-premises.

[Slinky Bender]

You're timing's off. I'd say that many of the "internet strip cliub guys" discovered the underground scene like Tina's, Medallius, 243, etc. in late 1998 or 1999 when the Harmony shut down. I discovered the hardcore UG scene sometime late in 1999 when I hit my first Big D event. More "internet strip club guys" followed with the ASS-Con field trips in late 2000 -2001. The rest is history.

I think you're talking out of both sides: if you're talking about the "mongers" then talk about them, if you're talking about the "internet stripclub guys" talk about them, but don't use the aspects of each when it's convenient and pretend it's all the same discussion.

Almost none of the internet mongers EVER disovered Tina's etc. much less back before 2000. Almost none of them ever went to 243, or even have any idea of what or where it was. If we put up a poll here on UG as to what Medalllius was, I'd bet less than 1% would have any clue. I would say that the overwhelming, vast majority of that group had their very first "UG experience" at F-Stop/Studio-5 or "ASSCon" (using the term as what they used it for, not the original "Pub Crawl" that it started out as).

But even more importantly (but with no proof to offer) those guys who did find those venues aren't the one's we're talking about here who it seems we "all" agree wanted a "quick fix solution". That is to say, the guys who we know who were "internet stripclub guys" who found various UG events were generally getting laps and HJs (and sometimes a little more) and not looking for "quickie spots with lapdances" (and thus by induction we "all' agree that they aren't/weren't the root cause of the problem).

[Slinky Bender]

I think the problem is more that after 1998 or so, a hands-on lap dancing place like the Harmony would have to be run as an underground establishment. I suspect the thinking goes like this: "If I'm going to run an underground club/events and risk getting busted, I may as well allow extras to take place." If you're going to be treated by LE as if you are allowing extras regardless of whether or not you do, you might as well let it happen and make the extra money.

I can not fault your logic, but talking about what actually did happen instead of what might have happened, it's not the way I directly saw things unfold. Especially since the operators almost to a one didn't get any part of the $ for the acts. They made the same $ whether the patron was getting a HJ or greek, and generally speaking the police have not treated HJ places the same as FS places (see various Spa discusions).

[ayemedroogie]

I think you're talking out of both sides: if you're talking about the "mongers" then talk about them, if you're talking about the "internet stripclub guys" talk about them, but don't use the aspects of each when it's convenient and pretend it's all the same discussion.

Almost none of the internet mongers EVER disovered Tina's etc. much less back before 2000. Almost none of them ever went to 243, or even have any idea of what or where it was. If we put up a poll here on UG as to what Medalllius was, I'd bet less than 1% would have any clue. I would say that the overwhelming, vast majority of that group had their very first "UG experience" at F-Stop/Studio-5 or "ASSCon" (using the term as what they used it for, not the original "Pub Crawl" that it started out as).

But even more importantly (but with no proof to offer) those guys who did find those venues aren't the one's we're talking about here who it seems we "all" agree wanted a "quick fix solution". That is to say, the guys who we know who were "internet stripclub guys" who found various UG events were generally getting laps and HJs (and sometimes a little more) and not looking for "quickie spots with lapdances" (and thus by induction we "all' agree that they aren't/weren't the root cause of the problem).

I was just adjusting your timeline, not trying to make any other point.

You're correct that F-Stop / Studio 5 was the first venue discovered by the "mongers". However, that establishment, loosely based on Tina's, was less of quickie spot than say Eposode. The Nowbar ASS-Cons had a SIGNIFICANT percentage of girls who NEVER provided more than HJ's (and sometimes even less) despite the influx of "mongers". This was probably due to the open door / no pimp / no # limit dancer policy of that venue.

The daily UG spots, F-Stop, DSS, etc. only allowed dancers who did extras to work there not because of pressure of internet "mongers", but to maximize the VIP room income stream. Because of the limited number of slots for dancers working on a given night, they selected dancers who moved people through the VIP. The profit motive was more important than any undue internet "monger" pressure.

F-Stop/S5 eventually degenerated into a venue that became a true quickie joint, eventually run by pimps, because of management issues and not due to pressure from "mongers". DSS/TS stayed true to their vision for their brief lifespans never having been concieved as HJ spots, again because of the VIP room income stream. They did however have more of an underground party feel especially when the number of dancers and customers reached critical mass. More intermittant parties like Big D's, Carlito's etc were not really influenced by internet "mongers' at all because they were such a small percentage of their cllientele.

[thevenerablebede]

I would say that the overwhelming, vast majority of that group had their very first "UG experience" at F-Stop/Studio-5 or "ASSCon" True for me. I found out about F-Stop & ASSCon here.

[theword]

I can not fault your logic, but talking about what actually did happen instead of what might have happened, it's not the way I directly saw things unfold. Especially since the operators almost to a one didn't get any part of the $ for the acts. They made the same $ whether the patron was getting a HJ or greek, and generally speaking the police have not treated HJ places the same as FS places (see various Spa discusions).

OK...I was mostly theorizing, and you would know better.

[theword]

I don't know if my history with these places is typical, but here it is:

Strip club guy. Found the Harmony in the early 80's and that was pretty much where I went until it got closed down. Good deal, good variety, good mileage, etc. Shortly thereafter (I think the Harmony got closed down in 1998), I found out about Studio 90 (the then-current incarnation of Tina's, which has moved around and changed its name a lot over the years). It was on 29th St. and at that point was fairly Harmony-like. Although you could get extras with most of the girls there, it was mostly a lap dance place. I forget where on the internet I heard about it. It was there for a year or two and then that spot got shut down. I found my way onto the nystripclubs Yahoo group and found out where it had reopened (as Su Casa or some such thing). In light of this thread, it's an interesting place because it slowly turned from a lap-dance place into a more typical modern UG spot -- i.e.

It moved around more, and the management got a lot more security conscious (not that it seemed to help them much).

The emphasis turned away from lap dances and more to the extras.

The selection of girls got smaller and there was less variety.

Eventually I gave up on following them around every time they would get closed...but then I heard about ASSCON and went there off and on until that closed. I've been fairly inactive with the UG clubs since then.

[theword]

I also went to F/Stop & S5 while that was around, and while they were promoted (as was ASSCON) as lap-dance events/clubs, they really weren't.

Let me say a few things about why I don't really like the current UG scene, since it seems to be the minority opinion:

There is not a lot of variety, at least, not compared with mainstream clubs or the Harmony (or S90 when it was more of a lap-dance place). The UG attracts about 90% WOC. I'm not saying this as a racist sentiment -- I like to see WOC as part of the variety, but miss everyone else. One of the great things about the Harmony is you could find just about any type you were interested in -- age, race, build, etc.

As Slinky pointed out above, the typical UG dancer does not really 'get' the idea of a lap dance as its own thing, or why anyone would want a HJ instead of a BJ or FS. The lap dance is seen strictly as a lead-in to the VIP room services. The dancers see guys who just want lap dances as time wasters for them. I think a lot of guys, not just me, enjoy a good hands-on lap dance. There is also the 'Bill Clinton factor' for those of us with an SO. That is, I can get a lap dance and not feel like I'm cheating, but not a BJ or FS. This matters to some of us. There's also the point that if I were going to pay for a BJ or FS, I'd like to have it be under more private, less rushed circumstances.

Most of the UG dancers have terrible customer service habits. They are high-pressure, and treat you like there is something wrong with you if you are not there for extras. One thing I hated at ASSCON is that I could not just hang out and have a drink without being 'wannadanced' every two seconds. I like a place where I can sit back a bit and I make the first move when I see someone I like the looks of.

Nothing is open during the day or even early evening. When they try to open early, the dancers don't show up until late anyway so it's not worth going early. I remember how dead the Sunday ASSCONs always were. The Wed one opened at 6, but not much was really happening until 10 or so -- and that's still early by UG standards. It's a lot easier to cover for afternoon or early evening activities than to explain why you're out at 3AM. Dear Underground: Please give us married guys a break here.

[justlooking]

I don't know if my history with these places is typical, but here it is:

Strip club guy. Found the Harmony in the early 80's and that was pretty much where I went until it got closed down. Good deal, good variety, good mileage, etc. Shortly thereafter (I think the Harmony got closed down in 1998), I found out about Studio 90 (the then-current incarnation of Tina's, which has moved around and changed its name a lot over the years). It was on 29th St. and at that point was fairly Harmony-like. Although you could get extras with most of the girls there, it was mostly a lap dance place. I forget where on the internet I heard about it. It was there for a year or two and then that spot got shut down. I found my way onto the nystripclubs Yahoo group and found out where it had reopened (as Su Casa or some such thing). In light of this thread, it's an interesting place because it slowly turned from a lap-dance place into a more typical modern UG spot -- i.e.

It moved around more, and the management got a lot more security conscious (not that it seemed to help them much).

The emphasis turned away from lap dances and more to the extras.

The selection of girls got smaller and there was less variety.

Eventually I gave up on following them around every time they would get closed...but then I heard about ASSCON and went there off and on until that closed. I've been fairly inactive with the UG clubs since then.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you have a very interesting misimpression.

My understanding is -- and again, someone should correct this if it isn't right -- that S90 was more a sex place than a lap dance place until the Harmony closed. At which point a lot of Harmony dancers, and hence Harmony customers, moved there. I believe (again, someone should correct me if I'm wrong) that that was the first time S90 ever had a substantial contingent of women who didn't do extras.

Of course, "extras" need not include FS. It may be that S90 was mainly hand jobs/blow jobs prior to the Harmony influx of 1998. But in any event, I think that the particular case of S90 is sort of the opposite of the syndrome Slinkybender is talking about.

Again: if I'm right.

[justlooking]

(One piece of evidence: before 1998, you would read about the various iterations of S90 frequently on places like WSG, but only rarely on the ASSC usenet newsgroup. Whereas the Harmony was discussed on ASSC all the time -- but on places like WSG, much less frequently than the various iterations of S90.)

[Slinky Bender]

You're correct that F-Stop / Studio 5 was the first venue discovered by the "mongers". However, that establishment, loosely based on Tina's, was less of quickie spot than say Eposode.

But that's not saying much. Everyplace is less of a uickie place than Episode, because Episode has always totally been a quickie place.



The Nowbar ASS-Cons had a SIGNIFICANT percentage of girls who NEVER provided more than HJ's (and sometimes even less) despite the influx of "mongers". This was probably due to the open door / no pimp / no # limit dancer policy of that venue. .

That says something about some of the girls who went there (and I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about the percentage of girls who were there on any given night who's limit was HJ or less; which I think on any given night .... on average .... was 10% or less). But it doesn't really talk to the spot..... if you look at the money which was made there, what percentage was made off of HJ's (not laps, which were performed as a lead in to VIP by almost every dancer). I think that was a number approaching zero (especially since HJ during a LD outside of the VIP was off limits).


The daily UG spots, F-Stop, DSS, etc. only allowed dancers who did extras to work there not because of pressure of internet "mongers", but to maximize the VIP room income stream. Because of the limited number of slots for dancers working on a given night, they selected dancers who moved people through the VIP. The profit motive was more important than any undue internet "monger" pressure.

Unfortunately, I have no way of duscussiing this without throwing in parts of an arguement which people wouldn't want me posting here.


F-Stop/S5 eventually degenerated into a venue that became a true quickie joint, eventually run by pimps, because of management issues and not due to pressure from "mongers".

I disagree. I spent a considerable amount of time there, and therefore I think I'm better suited to judge than those making their judgemet on third hand info. What happened was that the clientelle shifted away from guys who were treating the place like they used to treat Tinas when the dancers saw they could make more money by spending less time with the customers when the mongers came in and showed "how they roll". I can't find it now, but anyone who read Bill Furniture's account of his first trip to F-Stop would know exactly what I'm talking about. These guys "crowded out" the "more traditional" Tinas type customers. Management was absentee even if physically present, so I'm not so sure about unconsious people making conscious decisions ;).

[Slinky Bender]

Let me say a few things about why I don't really like the current UG scene, since it seems to be the minority opinion:

See... that's the point I've been trying to make... and it's a lot like and awful lot of other stuff you see on PMBS...... I don't think you're in the minority opinion when it comes to custmoers and potential customers of these spots. I only think you're in the minority opinon when it comes to vocal internet posters on PMBs. To digress, look at a lot of issues on PMBs - take CBJ vs BBJ for example. I think the majority of girls do CBJ rather than BBBJ, and I think the majority of cusomers get, accept andamny even prefer CBJ. But you'd never know that from reading PMBs. In that same way you'd think that operations which wee $200+ per hour Rub and Tug places could never be successful.... but that would be a totally incorrect conclusion. Back on topic: that's why I'm saying that I think "the internet guys" ruined the scene..... I think that they influenced the scene to mold it to what they thought should happen at these places, and i think they got what they want, but I don't think this was what the majority of the patrons of the scene wanted, and in addition I think that the true patrons got crowded out as a result, and I think in the end the scene suffered (died?) as a result.

Think about this: evey time someone mentions "The Harmony" half the guys in town get teary eyed about it. While many "miss" the other places, it's not nearly the same type of reaction.

[Slinky Bender]

(One piece of evidence: before 1998, you would read about the various iterations of S90 frequently on places like WSG, but only rarely on the ASSC usenet newsgroup. Whereas the Harmony was discussed on ASSC all the time -- but on places like WSG, much less frequently than the various iterations of S90.)

Question (and not my usual "question where he already thinks he knows the answer): what do guys consider the "Golden Age" of S90 - before or after The Harmony closing?

[Slinky Bender]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you have a very interesting misimpression.

My understanding is -- and again, someone should correct this if it isn't right -- that S90 was more a sex place than a lap dance place until the Harmony closed. At which point a lot of Harmony dancers, and hence Harmony customers, moved there. I believe (again, someone should correct me if I'm wrong) that that was the first time S90 ever had a substantial contingent of women who didn't do extras.

Of course, "extras" need not include FS. It may be that S90 was mainly hand jobs/blow jobs prior to the Harmony influx of 1998. But in any event, I think that the particular case of S90 is sort of the opposite of the syndrome Slinkybender is talking about.

Again: if I'm right.

Yes and no. While usenet existed prior to 1998, the "internet mongers" really didn't become a presence till then (or actually after then... probably more like 1999. think about the rise of T*B*D, which really signalled that "internet mongerism" had arrived, even if totally unconnected to the issue at hand. Was WSG really significantly populated signifcantly before 1998? (Or) was this a newsgroup version of what became the site WSG?). So, in relation to this internet mongerism, to some extent, "the beginning of time" wasnt' until after The Harmony had already closed. So what I'm trying to say is that if you only look at what happened at S90 after "the event", it went the same way I'm saying.

[theword]

Think about this: evey time someone mentions "The Harmony" half the guys in town get teary eyed about it. While many "miss" the other places, it's not nearly the same type of reaction.

You're right, The Harmony has become the Holy Grail of NYC strip clubs. The weird thing about that (and your theory that the kind of club that I like is more representative of what customers in general want) is:

Since it closed, no one has opened a true Harmony replacement -- mainstream or underground. Why not? Is it really because of the vocal PMB crowd who say they want more? I would think that someone would see through that and notice the wistful responses to mentions of the Harmony, and realize it's a marketing opportunity.

Here is this thing half the guys in town want, and no one has re-created it. It's a mystery to me.

[Slinky Bender]

Obviously part of the reason (which everyone will shout about) is that The Harmony wasn't "underground". But I'd say that it's more because there's a gap in goals: what I mean by that is that mainstream club operators want to operate on the business model which they are accustomed to, and brothel owners want to operate on the model which they are accustomed to, and "UG club owners" (whatever that means today) want to operate under the modl which they are accustomed to.

Now, as I see it, there isn't any group who wants to "be accustomed to" operating in the model of The Harmony. And I'll follow that up by claiming that one big reason for this is that the people who might be inclined to do so are influenced by the "internet mongers" out of doing it.

[Slinky Bender]

I can't find it now, but anyone who read Bill Furniture's account of his first trip to F-Stop would know exactly what I'm talking about.

No wonder I couldn't find it:

http://utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10358

[justlooking]

Question (and not my usual "question where he already thinks he knows the answer): what do guys consider the "Golden Age" of S90 - before or after The Harmony closing?

I think it depends which "guys" you mean to be doing the considering.

To me as a (then) outsider, it seemed more mythic (if that word doesn't sound too retarded) as described on WSG in the pre-Harmony-closing days.

[justlooking]

Yes and no. While usenet existed prior to 1998, the "internet mongers" really didn't become a presence till then (or actually after then... probably more like 1999. think about the rise of T*B*D, which really signalled that "internet mongerism" had arrived, even if totally unconnected to the issue at hand. Was WSG really significantly populated signifcantly before 1998? (Or) was this a newsgroup version of what became the site WSG?). So, in relation to this internet mongerism, to some extent, "the beginning of time" wasnt' until after The Harmony had already closed. So what I'm trying to say is that if you only look at what happened at S90 after "the event", it went the same way I'm saying.

Makes sense.

[justlooking]

(One piece of evidence: before 1998, you would read about the various iterations of S90 frequently on places like WSG, but only rarely on the ASSC usenet newsgroup. Whereas the Harmony was discussed on ASSC all the time -- but on places like WSG, much less frequently than the various iterations of S90.)

I should also add, just as a matter of historical interest, that when the various pre-Harmony-closing iterations of S90 were discussed on the ASSC newsgroup, they were always objects of derision. They were generally derided as skanky vectors of unspeakable diseases.

[thevenerablebede]

No wonder I couldn't find it:

http://utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10358
a trip down, er, mammary lane...

[Slinky Bender]

I think it depends which "guys" you mean to be doing the considering.

To me as a (then) outsider, it seemed more mythic (if that word doesn't sound too retarded) as described on WSG in the pre-Harmony-closing days.

Well that's almost a tautology (assuming the fact set you already presented). What I want to know is how do people look back on it now (I mean, when people talk about "Golden Ages", they usully aren't talking about the present, are they?).

[thevenerablebede]

I should also add come back Flounder

[Slinky Bender]

PS And don't ask "which guys now" because we'd be talking about platypusses.

[Slinky Bender]

I should also add come back Flounder

That would be a fluke.

[justlooking]

Well that's almost a tautology (assuming the fact set you already presented). What I want to know is how do people look back on it now (I mean, when people talk about "Golden Ages", they usully aren't talking about the present, are they?).

What I meant was that I think the oldline S90 guys look at the mid-90s, say, as the "Golden Age".

Whereas the Internet Strip Club Guys probably look at the Ludlow St. era as the "Golden Age".

[justlooking]

When I started going to S90 in 1998 as part of the Great Harmony Influx, I had the distinct impression that the existing S90 customers were really pissed off (or at least completely nonplussed) at the effect the new Harmony girls and the new group of Harmony customers were having on the place.

Again, someone more knowledgeable should correct me if I'm wrong.

[Slinky Bender]

What I meant was that I think the oldline S90 guys look at the mid-90s, say, as the "Golden Age".

Whereas the Internet Strip Club Guys probably look at the Ludlow St. era as the "Golden Age".

Combine the two groups "as if" they were one.

[theword]

What I meant was that I think the oldline S90 guys look at the mid-90s, say, as the "Golden Age".

Whereas the Internet Strip Club Guys probably look at the Ludlow St. era as the "Golden Age".

West 29th St. was the Golden Age of S90 for me.

[Slinky Bender]

West 29th St. was the Golden Age of S90 for me.

Unless jl is full of shit, that was fairly obvious.

[justlooking]

Whereas theword thinks of the West 29th St. period as the "Golden Age".

[theword]

Obviously part of the reason (which everyone will shout about) is that The Harmony wasn't "underground". But I'd say that it's more because there's a gap in goals: what I mean by that is that mainstream club operators want to operate on the business model which they are accustomed to, and brothel owners want to operate on the model which they are accustomed to, and "UG club owners" (whatever that means today) want to operate under the modl which they are accustomed to.

Now, as I see it, there isn't any group who wants to "be accustomed to" operating in the model of The Harmony. And I'll follow that up by claiming that one big reason for this is that the people who might be inclined to do so are influenced by the "internet mongers" out of doing it.

That makes sense, since it was really a unique place. Oh, the irony, that what made it great means no one wants to duplicate it. It makes me wish I knew how to run a strip club.

[Slinky Bender]

It makes me wish I knew how to run a strip club.


Oh.... the irony is dripping..........

[justlooking]

Beat me to that one.

[thevenerablebede]

I was introduced to "Mardi Gras" in San Francisco back in the seventies. By the time I moved to NYC (1988) and hit the Harmony it was "been there done that." For me, the "Golden Age" was 1976 when I first visited NYC and went to Times Square; wandered into Show World (or was it Show Palace?) and went into the windowless peeps and got a handjob from a hot little latina for five bucks...

[nyctruth]

Obviously part of the reason (which everyone will shout about) is that The Harmony wasn't "underground". But I'd say that it's more because there's a gap in goals: what I mean by that is that mainstream club operators want to operate on the business model which they are accustomed to, and brothel owners want to operate on the model which they are accustomed to, and "UG club owners" (whatever that means today) want to operate under the modl which they are accustomed to.

Now, as I see it, there isn't any group who wants to "be accustomed to" operating in the model of The Harmony. And I'll follow that up by claiming that one big reason for this is that the people who might be inclined to do so are influenced by the "internet mongers" out of doing it.

Like you said the Harmony wasn't underground. The place had way too high a traffic flow. That type of club wouldn't stay open today because of zoning laws, criminal laws and most importantly, policy.

Nowadays you would have to do a variation on the theme. I wouldn't know exactly what that would be and haven't given it deep thought. Why bother since I don't know anyone with the money, intellect, inclination and cojones(pronounced balls) to try running such an establishment.

[nyctruth]

When I started going to S90 in 1998 as part of the Great Harmony Influx, I had the distinct impression that the existing S90 customers were really pissed off (or at least completely nonplussed) at the effect the new Harmony girls and the new group of Harmony customers were having on the place.

Again, someone more knowledgeable should correct me if I'm wrong.


Since I'd been going to the different variations of S90 since they were right on 6th Ave (?circa '93-'95 and before "VIP" rooms in the underground) that would definitely make me one of the pissed. I think Tina started that VIP BS partially because of the Harmony influx. I know a couple of ex-Harmonettes who would just dance nude with a hj in the VIP.

[SlickWilly]

Since I'd been going to the different variations of S90 since they were right on 6th Ave (?circa '93-'95 and before "VIP" rooms in the underground) that would definitely make me one of the pissed. I think Tina started that VIP BS partially because of the Harmony influx. I know a couple of ex-Harmonettes who would just dance nude with a hj in the VIP.

Was that you in the adjoining chair? LOL. I hung out at S90 a lot in 93 and 94. I used to take a lunch break with one of the girls at the nearby Senton. What a dump. Whenever I'm in the city and I drive by that big black door, I have fond memories.

[vermeer]

what kind of license do you need to do a burlesque show? nipples covered by pasties. Is it legal to do lapdances in that type of environmnet?

just curious.

[justlooking]

I think Tina started that VIP BS partially because of the Harmony influx.

Yeah, right, right, I forgot: it was the new VIP room that really pissed the shit out of the "old" guys. Yeah, I'm SURE Tina started that at least in part because of the Harmony influx.

Thanks.

[justlooking]

what kind of license do you need to do a burlesque show? nipples covered by pasties. Is it legal to do lapdances in that type of environmnet?

just curious.

I don't think it's technically "legal" to do lapdances in any environment in New York State. I just think the law is unclear enough that nobody wants to bother to try to enforce it.

[theword]

Like you said the Harmony wasn't underground. The place had way too high a traffic flow. That type of club wouldn't stay open today because of zoning laws, criminal laws and most importantly, policy.

Nowadays you would have to do a variation on the theme. I wouldn't know exactly what that would be and haven't given it deep thought. Why bother since I don't know anyone with the money, intellect, inclination and cojones(pronounced balls) to try running such an establishment.

I wonder if a Harmony-like place could stay open these days if:

It were a little less visible than the Church/22nd St. locations. I'm thinking of how it was on 17th st, when it was upstairs with no signs. Not completely underground, but subtle.

It were not run by someone (what was her name anyway?) who, as far as I could tell, was hated by everyone who had dealings with her. Tina seemed to share this talent for pissing off dancers, customers, landlords, and probably LE, and I think that's part of why S90 had to move around so much.

[justlooking]

(what was her name anyway?)

Dominique.

[justlooking]

(Although I think it was really Madeline.)

[justlooking]

(But everyone knew her as Nancy.)

[ramagic2003]

I remember first finding out about the Harmony from Screw Magazine. Went there when it was off of 5th ave (I think). Got lap dances from Cee Cee for $3 a pop. Old men would go there with their lunch and camp out the whole day. My favorate part was the swarm of tiny flys that used to hang out in the bathroom. I never saw anything going on yet there were always a pleathera of used condoms all over the bathroom floor. They moved twice and their last place (I think in 92) was the big theater on 23rd street. They started a membership for first timers ie 20 then you got a card and it was 10 afrerwards. Laps went from $5 per song to $10 a song.
There was very little millage. I then started to go to Tina's when she was on 28th st. Laps were 10 but usually lasted longer than 1 song.

Ah the Golden days! There were pleanty of W houses around but that was not what harmony was about. It was a sureal experiance, kind of dream like, where a person could really enjoy themselves, not have to morgage their house and still go home with only a moderate amount of guilt.

[nyctruth]

Was that you in the adjoining chair? LOL.
<snip>
What a dump. ...<snip>

How could you tell? Most of the time it was pitch black, and in winter... brrrr.
A "dancer" later came up to me and told me she remembered me from 6th Ave and for the life of me I didn't remember her face.

One thing I give it... the bathroom was relatively clean. Remember, the girls would get pissed when the bathroom door was left open because the light would illuminate the place.

[nyctruth]

I wonder if a Harmony-like place could stay open these days if:

It were a little less visible than the Church/22nd St. locations. I'm thinking of how it was on 17th st, when it was upstairs with no signs. Not completely underground, but subtle.

It were not run by someone (what was her name anyway?) who, as far as I could tell, was hated by everyone who had dealings with her. Tina seemed to share this talent for pissing off dancers, customers, landlords, and probably LE, and I think that's part of why S90 had to move around so much.

The problem with a legit place is that you would have to permit fire inspections and the word would spread to the wrong ears. Also, if you wanted to serve liquor (I know the Harmony didn't) you'd need a liquor license. You couldn't get away with selling ice and cups and having patrons BYOB. Health inspectors would also be all over you. Garbage pickup would be another issue. We all know the associated problems with waste m'gmt. I just can't see the payoff.

The Harmony made money on high traffic. Unfortunately, at 22nd St. chicks would go for a smoke half naked in the backyard and at Church the sign right next to a restaurant and down the street from a synagogue didn't help.

As far a pissed of dancers, customers, etc. That's par for the course. There's alway a disgruntled someone or other.

[nyctruth]

I don't think it's technically "legal" to do lapdances in any environment in New York State. I just think the law is unclear enough that nobody wants to bother to try to enforce it.

Didn't Justice O'Connor rule that any touching of the breasts, butt and genitalia to constitute sex?

I think in NYC there's even a reg. about covering the full butt, breasts and genitals otherwise zoning comes into play.

No, the only possible way to have legal lapdances is to have the sexual right of people be legitimized by law.

I'm not a lawyer so I could very well be wrong on all of this.

[theword]

The problem with a legit place is that you would have to permit fire inspections and the word would spread to the wrong ears. Also, if you wanted to serve liquor (I know the Harmony didn't) you'd need a liquor license. You couldn't get away with selling ice and cups and having patrons BYOB. Health inspectors would also be all over you. Garbage pickup would be another issue. We all know the associated problems with waste m'gmt. I just can't see the payoff.

What this means is we'll never see a mainstream Harmony-type place again unless there is a big change in the NYC political/legal climate.

It could still work as an underground club/party format, and I hope some promoters are reading this thread and someday will give it a try.

I remember a year or two ago, in a Yahoo group, someone tried to get a Harmony event planned. He started a separate group, and it had quite a few members. He had found a few old Harmony girls, and some Yahoo "amateurs" were interested in attending. It never happened, and I got the feeling that it was because the planner was someone who had never run an event of that type, and just could not quite get his act together. People got impatient and he gave up on the idea.

It didn't work, not because it was a bad idea, but the wrong person was trying to do it. (It was probably a guy like me, with no experience in the business except as a consumer, who finally said "If no one wants to do this, I'll do it myself!" which I am carefully avoiding doing because I know I don't have the resources/connections to make it happen.) There were a lot of guys who would have shown up, and I remember quite a few volunteering assistance with finding a place, tracking down girls, etc.

[Slinky Bender]

You know, I really don't know, but I'm not sure the Harmony [i]wasn't an "underground" club....... it's just that so much more was aloowed to go on which was "semi-legal", and as time has gone by, the noose has tightened farther and farther. Remember, at one time in Times sqaure there were "Swingers Clubs" which had neon signs out front and hawkers, and they were places where you pay an admission and one of the ladies who "didn't work there" would have sex with you. I guess it depends on exactly were the line was when The Harmony was open, and I'm not so sure that line was clear.

[Harmony Memories]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you have a very interesting misimpression.

My understanding is -- and again, someone should correct this if it isn't right -- that S90 was more a sex place than a lap dance place until the Harmony closed. At which point a lot of Harmony dancers, and hence Harmony customers, moved there. I believe (again, someone should correct me if I'm wrong) that that was the first time S90 ever had a substantial contingent of women who didn't do extras.

Of course, "extras" need not include FS. It may be that S90 was mainly hand jobs/blow jobs prior to the Harmony influx of 1998. But in any event, I think that the particular case of S90 is sort of the opposite of the syndrome Slinkybender is talking about.

Again: if I'm right.

You are pretty much correct here. I found Tina's/Club 90/studio 90/whatever around 1990, when they were on 26th St. They then moved to 29th (early 90s), 6th Ave, then to 38th St. In all those locations, everything was out in the open and available.
They moved to 29th and 6th right before the Harmony closed in August 1998. At that point, there was a massive influx of ex-Harmony girls coming in. Tina the decided that the Main room would be for LDs only, and if you wanted more, you had to pay $25(?) extra for the VIP. This may be because she had new girls who didn't want to work out in the open like that, and probably also because now guys had a chance to VIP with their Harmony favorites, which they may have not had before, and were willing to shell out the extra bucks for the chance

[theword]

You know, I really don't know, but I'm not sure the Harmony [i]wasn't an "underground" club....... it's just that so much more was aloowed to go on which was "semi-legal", and as time has gone by, the noose has tightened farther and farther. Remember, at one time in Times sqaure there were "Swingers Clubs" which had neon signs out front and hawkers, and they were places where you pay an admission and one of the ladies who "didn't work there" would have sex with you. I guess it depends on exactly were the line was when The Harmony was open, and I'm not so sure that line was clear.

That's true. Even after the places you mention got closed down, you had places like the New Paris in Times Square (stage show + extras in back room -- you wanted sleaze, this place was SLEAZE). You could never have a place like that operating openly today, but it was there for at least 20 years until it got closed down in the 90s.

[nyctruth]

You know, I really don't know, but I'm not sure the Harmony [i]wasn't an "underground" club....... it's just that so much more was aloowed to go on which was "semi-legal", and as time has gone by, the noose has tightened farther and farther. Remember, at one time in Times sqaure there were "Swingers Clubs" which had neon signs out front and hawkers, and they were places where you pay an admission and one of the ladies who "didn't work there" would have sex with you. I guess it depends on exactly were the line was when The Harmony was open, and I'm not so sure that line was clear.


I remember seeing an interview with Koch after Guiliani changed things. As I remember the gist was that Koch didn't take on the sex industry because he was certain the courts would rule against him. And, he was impressed by the tack Guiliani took.

Guiliani made a "shades of gray" set of laws and regs and made it black and white. He drew a line in granite.

Of course I think that the lawyers for the industry argued poorly and chose the wrong arguments to begin with. That and a change in the political environment thanks to a concerted push by Conservative christian movement. We can thank Pat robertson and Reagan for that.

[Slinky Bender]

I think you vastly underestimate the impact rising Real Estate Values played.

[justlooking]

DITTO (to Slinkybender).

[Behrnik]

I think you vastly underestimate the impact rising Real Estate Values played.
Remember the greenery accross the street from Church Street. See the hotel there now. How much money do you think the city made off that? How much are they getting now with employees paying taxes.
Not about quality of life. It's about raising revenue for the city.

[nyctruth]

I think you vastly underestimate the impact rising Real Estate Values played.

Well, I'm not so sure about that. Having seen the "books" on one now defunct underground, there is substantial profit even after a markup for the type of business being run.

Also, as I understood (I could be wrong) the proprietress of the Harmonies owned the buildings.

Many of the popular establishments of the past were not under lease and therefore, were not impacted by rising rents. As we know property taxes only recently rose and even now it's not that high. Even poorly run stripbars were cash cows.

That said, as you remember real estate prices didn't start rising until the G man cleared out Times Square (which I think is a good thing) and re-zoned (which I think was unfair). Even with that it was the mayor who substantially increased the minimums for rent control and that is what caused the explosion in real estate prices. I was recently checking rents on craigslist and you can still get decent square footage for a rate that can allow a brave soul to make good money.

[Slinky Bender]

You miss the point entirely: take a look at all of the spots where Studio 90 used to be. Take a look at the character of that neighborhood back then. Take a look at the same neighborhood today.

There's a huge difference in tollerence of Adult establishments depending on what real Estate Values are doing in that neighborhood. On Third Ave in Brooklyn, there have been streetwalkers and Peep shows forever. Recently... almost out of nowhere, the "neighborhood" folks are protesting. Why? because as Real Estate Values increase, the middle class moves: don't ask me to define that except to say it's whomever can't afford the current "prime" neighborhoods and therefore moves close to them, but into the areas previously occupied by a class lower.

Well, there used to be loads of areas which were "semi-vacant" and tollerated the existence of semi-legal activities. people who colonized Tribeca tended to be artsy types who really wouldn't call up their local whatever and try to get a Harmony Club shut down. Not quite the same for the crowd no in Tribeca, where almost all of the IMD artisits have been pushed out and replaced by affluent people spending $3 Million for lofts. Same in the West 20's, then West 30's.

And don't even get me started on Times Square.... it was one of the biggest "takings" to occur in the history of the US (after us whiteys took all of it from the natives). The redevelopment of Times Square involved one of the bigger thefts of private property in the last century. The State used the Empire State Development Corporation, and it's subsidiary the Times Square Redevelopment Corp. and condemned all the private property on 42nd Street between Broadway and 8th Aveneue (except for a few parcels conveniently left out which just happened to belong to big NY developers - like the Milstiens), and then handed the properties over to "selected" developers, for signifcantly less than those properties could have been bought for on the open market (and the losers were mostly small Real Estate holders who had held onto those properties for years while getting substantially less in rent than surrpunding areas who were waiting themselves for the next jump in the Real Estate market, but got screwed out of the opportunity to cash in on investments which they had held for, in the most part, decades).

read between the lines here to get an idea:

http://www.gowlings.com/resources/publications.asp?pubid=790

http://www.gothamgazette.com/iotw/condemned/

http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/trends/columns/cityside/n_10215/

[Slinky Bender]

I was recently checking rents on craigslist and you can still get decent square footage for a rate that can allow a brave soul to make good money.

I'd be very curious to see what your calculations were.

[ChuckUFarlie]

Slinky, thanks for the links! Interesting reading.

[BIGROD]

We can thank Pat robertson and Reagan for that.

We can thank the white males in NY who vote republican for that.

[nowman]

Just a quick question for anyone who chooses to reply-

Right now there are really no options for us in NYC, all of the familiar names are gone( studio90, studio5, f/stop, the red door) etc..so here's my question. If someone were to open a new" underground" spot would you rather get a great $10 ld with the possibility of a hj, or a dance but with extras available?

[thevenerablebede]

extras

[BIGROD]

Just a quick question for anyone who chooses to reply-

Right now there are really no options for us in NYC, all of the familiar names are gone( studio90, studio5, f/stop, the red door) etc..so here's my question. If someone were to open a new" underground" spot would you rather get a great $10 ld with the possibility of a hj, or a dance but with extras available?

Extras is what I want from an underground spot. The ld with the possibility of a hj is what I would expect from a mainstream club.

[nyctruth]

You miss the point entirely: take a look at all of the spots where Studio 90 used to be. Take a look at the character of that neighborhood back then. Take a look at the same neighborhood today.

There's a huge difference in tollerence of Adult establishments depending on what real Estate Values are doing in that neighborhood.
<snip>


I did get your point. I suppose I am ineffectively haggling over the cause. I view the cause as a change in policy. Higher real estate values and less choices for us are the effects.

Even with higher overhead, I'd wager a small sum that there are "high class" underground clubs in those same now expensive real estate locales.

I could be wrong. If I was right about everything I spoke on I wouldn't be right here right now.

[nyctruth]

This just came to mind. If laws and policy were to change tomorrow noon allowing prostitution, by 4pm there would be several venues opened even with the high real estate costs. So to my thinking the overhead can't be the main reason for current state of affairs.

[robnotbob]

(But everyone knew her as Nancy.)

Her name was McGill?

[Harmony Memories]

You miss the point entirely: take a look at all of the spots where Studio 90 used to be. Take a look at the character of that neighborhood back then. Take a look at the same neighborhood today.



This is quite true. Back in the 1990s, Tina's/Studio 90/Club 90/Whatever resided primarily in locations in the 20s and 30s between 6th and 7th Avenues. She moved a few times in those years, but always seemed to stay in the general vicinity. Now look at 6th Avenue, north of 23rd St. How many high-rises have risen in those few blocks ? At least 6 or 7. The whole character of the neighborhood has changed dramatically in just the last 5-7 years

[Harmony Memories]

Just a quick question for anyone who chooses to reply-

Right now there are really no options for us in NYC, all of the familiar names are gone( studio90, studio5, f/stop, the red door) etc..so here's my question. If someone were to open a new" underground" spot would you rather get a great $10 ld with the possibility of a hj, or a dance but with extras available?

I'd like the option of extras being available, at least from some of the girls. Even though I may not partake of them, it's nice to know that they're there. (I mean, I'm a guy who went to the red Door almost every week for a year, and had extras maybe 2 or 3 times)

[theword]

Just a quick question for anyone who chooses to reply-

Right now there are really no options for us in NYC, all of the familiar names are gone( studio90, studio5, f/stop, the red door) etc..so here's my question. If someone were to open a new" underground" spot would you rather get a great $10 ld with the possibility of a hj, or a dance but with extras available?

I'm sure you knew I would say this from what I've been posting in this thread, but I vote for the great $10 ld. Let the extras take place off-premises. It's not that I begrudge people their extras, but:

I believe there are too many mainstream(ish) girls who would work in an UG lapdance place and give a good ld, but would not want to work in an extras-on-premises place. I think there is a whole thing about identifying as a stripper vs. as a provider that this gets into.

If extras are generally available, then the focus of the place becomes about the extras, and many of the girls don't want to take the time to give a good dance.

[theword]

Extras is what I want from an underground spot. The ld with the possibility of a hj is what I would expect from a mainstream club.

That would be nice but is not the reality in NYC mainstream clubs. Where can you go to get a good hands-on ld (no bullshit air dances or "you can't touch") without getting into some kind of overpriced VIP arrangement?

[Slinky Bender]

This just came to mind. If laws and policy were to change tomorrow noon allowing prostitution, by 4pm there would be several venues opened even with the high real estate costs. So to my thinking the overhead can't be the main reason for current state of affairs.

Why do you keep insisting it's the "costs" even after being told that's not it?

[nyctruth]

Just a quick question for anyone who chooses to reply-

Right now there are really no options for us in NYC, all of the familiar names are gone( studio90, studio5, f/stop, the red door) etc..so here's my question. If someone were to open a new" underground" spot would you rather get a great $10 ld with the possibility of a hj, or a dance but with extras available?

Whichever type was opened, I think the best way to get the word out is in person and NOT over the internet. Hopefully the enterprising individual(s) can figure it out.

[nowman]

Not to overstate things already said but NYC is a VERY expensive city and even more expensive to run a business so... that being said I don't know how after factoring in costs and overhead how any underground place could survive purely by word of mouth. Tina (studio90/ludlow st.) never paid more than $1500-2000 per month for any of her spots and it showed. The latest incarnation of DSS was paying just over $5000. Trust me it's tough to make it without getting the word out to the masses!

[thrasherp]

To add my 2 cents to this thread:

History: I am giving away my age, but I started exploring NYC's sex trade in the late 70s. While I am horrible at remembering names, dates, locations, etc, I agree with all the historical posts - places like New Paris (where I got awsome FS from a stacked, hot, bleach-blonde just off the bus from Idaho, for about $50 total) - and there were a few of them in midtown, to the Mardi Gras places (all listed in Screw Magazine under the Mardi Gras category; hardly UTR) were incredible. I, too, remember the Show World/place XXX emporiums of Times Square with full contact booths (dozens of girls upstairs, all types, cross-gender "gals" in the cellar), and the live sex shows, with the girls roaming the audience offering a trip to the back room. Yes I made it to the Harmony a few times on Church and on 17th St (I don't remember that it was called the Harmony). Then came quickie incall shops like the white fence place in TriBeCa (no idea what it was called), where the girls would all come up from someplace like South Carolina to work for a month or two. I followed this place, with its friendly, attractive girls of all shapes, sizes and colors, to the 36th St location, then I lost track of it. Then there was that place on 38th, next to Lou G. Seigel's, where you'd walk in and select from a dozen or so very varied girls, go into the large open LD room, and get right down to biz - FS in full view of other patrons/girls. I found all of this with Screw, the Voice, and that NY Sex Guide (or whatever it was called), that I'd buy at the shops in Times Square. I didn't have a 'puter until 97, and didn't find the most useful sites for a while after that.

Obviously, I have no problem with performing in an open, LD-like room. I just love being surrounded by hoes of all sorts - young, old, black, white, thin, thick - skanked out in sleazy outfits, with heels, offering to do things that would make their parents sick, to dozens of guys a night, and then doing those things in an open-air setting. Pure heaven.

As far as what I'd like - extras, baby! Call me part of the problem, but HJs get boring after a while. I need lips - both kinds!

And yes, it's all about money and political ambition. The laws haven't changed that much, but now they're being enforced. And that's why, as I posted elsewhere, NYC voter-mongers must vote as far-left as possible in every election. When the liberals take control, they start adding expensive entitlement programs and growing old ones. To pay for it, they raise taxes and eliminate tax-breaks for new businesses and construction. They drive the corporations out of the city into the burbs. Unemployment rises, neighborhoods empty, hoes (now without their data input or cashiering jobs) move in, followed by sex-trade businesses. It happened in the 60s, and it can happen again. Hopefully before I am too old to enjoy it! Vote Ferrer, New Yorkers!

[jb_nyc]

I see a lot of discussion about the history of the UG scene and what became of what and why etc. However, I haven't as yet come across any discussion here on what killed ASSCon? As I understand it, the group and their parties lasted for 6+ years. (Though, I only discovered them late in '04). I'm just curious, if they lived through and prospered through the Giuliani era, what exactly killed them this year? Did they just get too greedy and started having too many parties? or did the parties just became too public?

[justlooking]

This just came to mind. If laws and policy were to change tomorrow noon allowing prostitution, by 4pm there would be several venues opened even with the high real estate costs. So to my thinking the overhead can't be the main reason for current state of affairs.

It isn't the overhead. That's not what he's saying.

[justlooking]

Where can you go to get a good hands-on ld (no bullshit air dances or "you can't touch") without getting into some kind of overpriced VIP arrangement?

Privilege

[justlooking]

Vote Ferrer, New Yorkers!

If you think Freddie Ferrer is gonna change the enforcement pattern for adult businesses, your out of your mind.

(Unless your argument is that his policies will so decrease real estate values that New York will be back where it was in the Seventies or early Nineties.)

[justlooking]

I see a lot of discussion about the history of the UG scene and what became of what and why etc. However, I haven't as yet come across any discussion here on what killed ASSCon? As I understand it, the group and their parties lasted for 6+ years. (Though, I only discovered them late in '04). I'm just curious, if they lived through and prospered through the Giuliani era, what exactly killed them this year? Did they just get too greedy and started having too many parties? or did the parties just became too public?

From reading this and another of your posts, I don't think you mean "ASSCon" when you say "ASSCon." I think you mean something/someone else.

[Harmony Memories]

Privilege

Or if you want to take a short venture into Queens (about a 10 minute subway ride from Midtown), try Gallaghers 2000, the only mainstream club I bother with these days. You can get a hands-on LD for $20. Daytime is best (less supervision around) . Girls in the day are mainly hot Latinas , with a few Russians thrown in. At night, there are so many Russians, you think you were transported to Minsk

[jb_nyc]

Hmm... I'm talking about the parties run by Jean Valjean, with the yahoo group Club ASSC NYC. Is that different from ASSCon? Guess you learn something new everyday at this board.

From reading this and another of your posts, I don't think you mean "ASSCon" when you say "ASSCon." I think you mean something/someone else.

[TC123]

Didn't Justice O'Connor rule that any touching of the breasts, butt and genitalia to constitute sex?

It must really suck to be Mr. O'Connor.

Mr: "But Sandy, we haven't done it in ages!"
Mrs: "Sure we did. Night before last, you touched my butt. And last week, the back of your hand grazed my breast when you were reaching for your reading glasses. Now leave me alone until your birthday."

[Slinky Bender]

maybe things will change now that she's going to be spending more time at home?

[justlooking]

I hate to be serious about this, but obviously there's no way the Supreme Court would ever have jurisdiction to rule on any issue like that.

[nyctruth]

maybe things will change now that she's going to be spending more time at home?

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/speech/adultent/topic.aspx?topic=pornography

I've been searching for the brief by O'Connor in which she defined sex, however I couldn't find it. Maybe I was wrong. The provided link is interesting reading nonetheless.

[nyctruth]

I hate to be serious about this, but obviously there's no way the Supreme Court would ever have jurisdiction to rule on any issue like that.

As I remembered the news (again I'm not certain of this) it was during the Clinton/Lewinski scandal, however, I believe the definition was to give a clarification regarding criminal behavior i.e pedophilia, etc. It was a brief not a court ruling.

Since I cannot find this definition on the web, maybe I imagined it, but I don't think I did.

[justlooking]

How/why would a Justice of the Supreme Court be writing a brief?

[Bandaid]

FWIW, most prostitution laws define sex as touching another person for the purpose of sexual gratification; prostitution is doing it for a fee. So, handjobs, for example, are sex and just as much prostitution as full service. Whether the cops take it as seriously or not's another story. Hell, by that definition, giving footrubs to fetishists could be called prostitution too.

There's no way one Supreme Court justice is going to be ruling what sex is. A majority of the Court might rule that the 'touching' definition above is reasonable and therefore doesn't offend the Constitution, but that's about it.

[justlooking]

So, handjobs, for example, are sex and just as much prostitution as full service.

Not to mention lap dances -- a point missed by most self-righteous "clean" strippers.

[Rokin]

I heard something on TV yesterday while they were discussing Alito, that Ruth Ginsberg had stated she was for legalizing prostitution during her confirmatin hearings. This was said by a pundit on the right so I do not know if it is true.

[Iorek]

..BUMP..

I'm gonna try giving this thread a chance to start up again.

Summer is over so I've gotta put the motorcycle away; I ended up buying one after I conceded to myself that the underground had died for now...it opened up new social circles and activities for myself and kept my mind off things...but like I said, Summer is over, it's getting chilly out there so I'm about to get all stir crazy again. Also I'm getting older so feel too old to go to the standard nightclub and frankly just want some ass and to get milked by pretty-slender-nubile young thangs.

I've scouted about as best as I could muster, as with the yahoo groups a search never works you must know the name of the group you wish to investigate to get the page and I just keep coming up with nothing so am quite completely out of touch with what is going on in the seedy underbelly of Gotham and the surrounding boro's/ states.

I've since been to a place here and there but more than not it's just a money hustle and you seem to need to have quite a sizeable amount of disposable income to truly approach satisfaction..I always thought the underground was high mileage for the regular working guy. Anyhow, I'm so out of touch now that I have no clue as to whats going on...well Whats going on nowadays?

[puffin]

Hi,

I post here occasionally, but for fear of revealing too much and getting someone in trouble, or violating the rules, I only give brief reviews and hints on the craigslist searches. I have been to several underground parties, and it seems that things are in flux. There are foot fetish parties, which seem to really be only about foot fetish and without much topless and I doubt FS (I rarely ask for it though). Some guy, "Lou" has set up some parties in the city for a few years now. They were 20, then 40, now 50 bucks a head to get in with 20 dollar dances. The girls are hot though. Google hot lap dance lou and you'll find leads. I troll Craigslist for new parties, and it seems some pop up around 30th street (why all the sleaze is there I'm not exactly sure).

No real leads beyond that. Sorry

[Iorek]

yeah 'q32003', I have to admit that its been a little bit, the last event I went to was a brownstone on Amsterdam Ave, I much preferred the red-door in the village tho, that was amazing. I guess during that time period when there seemed to be a systematic attack and shutdown of one event after another I laid low for a while but when trying to rejoin nothing at that time seemed sure and everything still seemed in flux. Also I live in philly so it was a little hike for me to come up to NYC and during that period the amount of money I seemed to end up spending was getting crazy for my sensibilities ($3~$400). I would joke with myself that if I was a guy that could cum fast and only needed one pop for satisfaction life would be easier in the pay for play world but suck when you are with a regular chick where presumably it's free.

I guess that at present I'm still a member of the yahoo groups I always was when I was regularly partaking but except for 'blues<fill in the blanc if you know it> and handson<fill in the blanc> all esle seems dead and I remember the 'galactic voyage' I undertook to find these groups in the first place and now there just seems less conversation regarding the subject matter and also because of the waryness of LE, nobody seems willing to pass on info to people they dont know. Like you said, somewhat understandable to a degree but what does a guy like me do.

This past summer was a total bust for me because of this. I had other things to occupy my mind and time (motorcycles) so it wasnt too bad but now that the weather has changed, I'm getting stir crazy like a mofo. All the same I'm still hoping for the 'early days' when you didnt have to come with half your rent money and the girls were more into service than money.

'Puffin' thanks for the input, I'll check out what CL has to offer, I never considered that as a source.

[puffin]

If I were dead set on hooking into the underground circuit I'd make sure to head out to any half-assed party I could find, then I'd treat the nicest girl(s) there right. That includes sharing my "BYOB" and tipping of course. The girls are hooked into the loop like nobody else, and they'll be even more eager to have you stop by to drop more cash at the event. I watch my cash too carefully to go to these things every week, so places drop off the map after I've visited three times. I thnk I made it to the red door three times tops. Anyone remember the blonde, "Charlie" from that place and F-Stop/Studio 9 etc? What a hottie! Easy to talk to and well dressed too.

[Thorn]

I troll Craigslist for new parties, and it seems some pop up around 30th street (why all the sleaze is there I'm not exactly sure).

No real leads beyond that. Sorry

Because the garment district provides large lofts when vacated by sweat shops with landlords that are not too discriminating on who they rent to between garment making tenants, and neighbors who don't ask too many questions because their employees are all illegal aliens.

[Monk]

Anyone remember the blonde, "Charlie" from that place and F-Stop/Studio 9 etc? What a hottie! Easy to talk to and well dressed too.

Isn't the fact that she was "well dressed" beside the point?

[tunahead]

Isn't the fact that she was "well dressed" beside the point?



She looked much better without the clothes. i saw her blowing a guy at the red door and then she blew me!!!

[57676]

She looked much better without the clothes. i saw her blowing a guy at the red door and then she blew me!!!


Hey Tuna. Just wanted to say hello. I met you the night of the bust at B&G. Remember we were conjecturing whether those guys were FDNY, building inspectors or UC NYPD ! I miss B&G let me know if you uncover any new venues.

[toooldforthis]

Originally Posted by puffin
Anyone remember the blonde, "Charlie" from that place and F-Stop/Studio 9 etc? What a hottie! Easy to talk to and well dressed too.

I remember Charlie. She was sweet. I wonder what ever happened to her. I remember Devon also. She was a very cool lady.

[gambino55us]

Yes of course I remember Charlie. She first appeared at F-Stop if I am correct. So whatever happened to Tina? Does she still have a place? I have such fond memories of her places.

[edouble]

remember Devon also. She was a very cool lady.

If you are talking about early twenties white girl, kind of a gothic look. She gave a great BBBJ. My all time favorite was light skinned Puerto Rican Skky.

[UG Staff]

Yes of course I remember Charlie. She first appeared at F-Stop if I am correct. So whatever happened to Tina? Does she still have a place? I have such fond memories of her places.


Incorrect. NowBar/ASSCon. Tina is currently closed.

[UG Staff]

If you are talking about early twenties white girl, kind of a gothic look. She gave a great BBBJ. My all time favorite was light skinned Puerto Rican Skky.

If it's the same Sky I'm thinking of, you REALLY need to keep Friday, December 14th open.

[tunahead]

Hey Tuna. Just wanted to say hello. I met you the night of the bust at B&G. Remember we were conjecturing whether those guys were FDNY, building inspectors or UC NYPD ! I miss B&G let me know if you uncover any new venues.

Hey Mr.mixed up numbers!!!! I will keep you in the loop!!!

[toooldforthis]

If you are talking about early twenties white girl, kind of a gothic look. She gave a great BBBJ. My all time favorite was light skinned Puerto Rican Skky.

I don't think I ever got around to her. There was a Sky at B&G but I don't think that's the same one.

[justlooking]

I don't know why you don't think so.

[edouble]

she runs with a thick Puerto Rican girl Chyna aka Leyla.

[toooldforthis]

I don't know why you don't think so.

Hmmmmm. That sounds interesting.