Why don't you post on UG anymore?

[Slinky Bender]

Because you can’t stand::


Notes: 1)You can vote on as many of the following as you want,
2) Votes by people who were never posters to begin with will be removed.

[h. von bingen]

i voted for myself just to start the ball rolling.

(it's the only person i voted for.)

[justlooking]

One problem with the poll as written is that it conveys the incorrect implication that you actually CAN'T post reviews of non-advertisers, when of course you can.

[justlooking]

I don't post anymore cuz francine can't post her phone number.

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by justlooking
One problem with the poll as written is that it conveys the incorrect implication that you actually CAN'T post reviews of non-advertisers, when of course you can.

Not really, because since so many idiots think that it's the case, it could easily be the reason they don't post. Reasons don't need to be logical (I mean, which other answer would be logical?).

[h. von bingen]

maybe the reason hombre doesn't post anymore is because of me. i'm going to call him up right now and ask him.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by slinkybender
Not really, because since so many idiots think that it's the case, it could easily be the reason they don't post. Reasons don't need to be logical (I mean, which other answer would be logical?).

I understand that. I just meant that having it written that way, by the Moderator of the board, seems to endorce that misbelief.

It could have said, "That you think you cant' post reviews of non-advertisers."

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by slinkybender
(I mean, which other answer would be logical?)
are you implying THORN is not logical?

[Cloud Nine]

sigh


yet another list of notables that I didnt make....

[Cloud Nine]

'cause if you think about it, according to rule 19, if someone doesnt post, its gotta be my fault.

[Cloud Nine]

and why isnt there an option for those of us who honestly dont give a fuck what anybody says and will post irregardless?

[h. von bingen]

if i win should i do a cat_ballou and HUFF off and claim i was RAILROADED?

(i'm going to practice my BEST VICTIM imitation.)

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Cloud Nine
and why isnt there an option for those of us who honestly dont give a fuck what anybody says and will post irregardless?
that is frighteningly close to well adjusted, i wouldn't let that get around.

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
if i win should i ... HUFF off Yeah! That would be the day.

[h. von bingen]

did you see cb when you were in ny?

(how is she?)

((still answering any old e m a i l off craig's list?))

(((she's quite the dumb cluck isn't she? think she'll vote?)))

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
1. did you see cb when you were in ny?

2. (how is she?)

3. ((still answering any old e m a i l off craig's list?))

4. (((she's quite the dumb cluck isn't she? think she'll vote?))) 1) No 2) Fine last time I got an e-male 3) Don't know 4) If she votes, I have a pretty good idea what her vote would be.

[occasionalhobbyist]

Originally posted by Cloud Nine
and why isnt there an option for those of us who honestly dont give a fuck what anybody says and will post irregardless?

A few additional reasons, in no particular order:

1) None of the above

2) Bad grammar. (Irregardless... What the fuck is wrong with you? Were you raised by wolves?)

3) Lack of a functional review system that allows me to search for a specific provider and find actionable data about them.

4) I've been busy, so sue me!

5) The Drama

[occasionalhobbyist]

Originally posted by justlooking
I understand that. I just meant that having it written that way, by the Moderator of the board, seems to endorce that misbelief.

It could have said, "That you think you cant' post reviews of non-advertisers."

Have you tried clicking on it?

Maybe it's like Family Feud, where if someone clicks on that particular answer, a big X comes up on the computer and takes them over to the relevant rules section...

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by pjorourke
4) If she votes, I have a pretty good idea what her vote would be.
ya think? last time she e m a i l e d me she was HORRIFIED at how she was being VICTIMIZED (albeit still answering every anonymous e m a i l on the internet). somebody should tell that chick not spill her guts.

[occasionalhobbyist]

6) Three-minute edit rule (not one of MY peeves, but might get some votes.)

7) Asterisks

8) The inexplicable editing of links so that url's for sites already included in the classified ads section no longer function properly, and the lack of response by administrators when queried about the decision... (Gee, you think that might be one I'd vote for?)

[occasionalhobbyist]

Of course, suddenly it's beginning to seem that I DO post an awful lot...

[occasionalhobbyist]

Originally posted by Cloud Nine
sigh


yet another list of notables that I didnt make....

oh, cry me a river...

[Cloud Nine]

Do we really need to rehash this CB thing again?

I think this might be the first time a poll goes into the coloseum if you keep this up.

[alterego]

Originally posted by Cloud Nine
yet another list of notables that I didnt make....

Don't take it so hard C9. It's hard to not be as disliked as the other 'cool' kids, and feel undespised. Some days you don't feel like anyone will ever victimize you. But not everyone can be Mr. Unpopularity and I'm sure that there's someone special out there that really hates you.

æ

[Cloud Nine]

Originally posted by occasionalhobbyist
few additional reasons, in no particular order:

1) None of the above

2) Bad grammar. (Irregardless... What the fuck is wrong with you? Were you raised by wolves?)

3) Lack of a functional review system that allows me to search for a specific provider and find actionable data about them.

4) I've been busy, so sue me!

5) The Drama

6) Three-minute edit rule (not one of MY peeves, but might get some votes.)

7) Asterisks

8) The inexplicable editing of links so that url's for sites already included in the classified ads section no longer function properly, and the lack of response by administrators when queried about the decision... (Gee, you think that might be one I'd vote for?)

9) Lack of constructive criticism...

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Cloud Nine
Do we really need to rehash this CB thing again?

I think this might be the first time a poll goes into the coloseum if you keep this up.
you know you complain about NOT being on the list, and now you complain about cb rehashing. sheesh. you're never satisified.

[Cloud Nine]

Originally posted by alterego
I'm sure that there's someone special out there that really hates you.

Really?

Youve given me hope again.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by alterego
Don't take it so hard C9. It's hard to not be as disliked as the other 'cool' kids, and feel undespised. Some days you don't feel like anyone will ever victimize you. But not everyone can be Mr. Unpopularity and I'm sure that there's someone special out there that really hates you.

æ
i'm being victimized! i'm being victimized! i'm being railroaded! i'm being railroaded!

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Cloud Nine
Really?

Youve given me hope again.
hey man, WHO'S name do you think i've been using when i emale cb? there's someone out there who hates you o yeah!

(i told her i was just another one of YOUR handles.)

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by Cloud Nine
Do we really need to rehash this CB thing again?

I think this might be the first time a poll goes into the coloseum if you keep this up. That would be a record even for HvB.

[h. von bingen]

you would NOT believe what SHE told me ABOUT you pj! it was hilarious!

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
you would NOT believe what SHE told me ABOUT you pj! it was hilarious! I'm sure it would be Darlin.

[occasionalhobbyist]

Originally posted by Cloud Nine
9) Lack of constructive criticism...

See my 2:07 p.m. post.

[itlbn]

I hate to be so trite, but...if you're the only smart person in a world of idiots, then who's the dumb one?

[h. von bingen]

i'm not the only smart one, don't be ridiculous.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by pjorourke
I'm sure it would be Darlin.
don't forget, she was talking about YOU (and she had no IDEA who i was). sort of confidence bracing isn't it?

[itlbn]

if you're the only one fighting with all those people who you find "fault" with, then who's fault is it?

[thevenerablebede]

the place has changed and i wish bill f was still here

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by itlbn
if you're the only one fighting with all those people who you find "fault" with, then who's fault is it?
there is no such thing as fault in my world. everybody is responsible for his or her own behaviour.

[itlbn]

Exactly...it just seems to this impartial observer that you seem to have anointed yourself the responsibility of overseeing everybody's behavior. I will say no more, so you can have the last word, as is your wont.

[alterego]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
everybody is responsible for his or her own behaviour.

Meanwhile, you're pulling ahead in the poll...

æ

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by alterego
Meanwhile, you're pulling ahead in the poll...

æ Coming around the backstretch turn, its Ozzy in the lead with HvB catching up fast. BTW, how long till the Ky Derby?

[Cloud Nine]

Doesnt the fact that pj and Thorn et al keep fighting with HvB mean that they are actually posting and not not posting? This is like a conundrum or something.

[NOYL]

Never thought I'd find myself rooting for hvb.

Go hvb, go!

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by Cloud Nine
Doesnt the fact that pj and Thorn et al keep fighting with HvB mean that they are actually posting and not not posting? This is like a conundrum or something. Actually, I'm not fighting with her. Just occassionally lobbing a little friendly shit. I didn't even vote for her in the poll.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by alterego
Meanwhile, you're pulling ahead in the poll...

æ
i don't doubt i'll win, because if i don't what does that say about society at large or, in this case, at little?

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by NOYL
Never thought I'd find myself rooting for hvb.

Go hvb, go!
you know what's so great about ug noyl? at the end of the day, i'll have my life and you'll have yours. can't think that doesn't make me giggle on a fairly regularly basis.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Cloud Nine
Doesnt the fact that pj and Thorn et al keep fighting with HvB mean that they are actually posting and not not posting? This is like a conundrum or something.
or as thorn said, i stopped posting because of hvb until i STARTED posting BECAUSE of hvb.

(pj just doesn't like getting outted. bet when he tells cb she's been writing to me, she'll make a pee pee in her pants.)

[curious]

don't

[NOYL]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
you know what's so great about ug noyl? at the end of the day, i'll have my life and you'll have yours. can't think that doesn't make me giggle on a fairly regularly basis.

Hmmmm, let's see. My main residence in northern NJ is paid for. I collect rent from the property. I have two waterfront homes at the NJ shore, both paid for. I rent one and use the other for myself.

Yeah, I got to admit, life is rough.

[h. von bingen]

i can't believe people voted against sb. who doesn't love him? (except maybe cb.) (snarf)

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by NOYL
Hmmmm, let's see. My main residence in northern NJ is paid for. I collect rent from the property. I have two waterfront homes at the NJ shore, both paid for. I rent one and use the other for myself.

Yeah, I got to admit, life is rough. maybe maybe not. who cares: NJ ugh.

but the point is: you're still you (and even you know you hate you).

and i'm still me.

[NOYL]

Gee hvb, thanks for the vote.

[curious]

HvB doeen't post anymore because of a nother poster?

What kind of logic is that?

Moreover, if one no longer posts, how can they vote in the poll (and then put up a post about why they don't post)?

I must have just passed through the Looking Glass. :eek:

edit: BTW I didn't vote. If you guys weren't taking pokes at each other there'd be hardly any daily volume.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by occasionalhobbyist
The Drama

That is about right imo. The way I would put it is that as the fraction of the posts that are basically UG self-referential material increases, my interest decreases. By "UG self-referential material" I mean posts that are primarily about UG or other UGers or the poster's own UG persona/conduct, as opposed to posts that are about something that exists independent of UG (whether it be provider reviews or discussions of hobbying/providing in general or Off Topic discussions of movies or politics or even the damn audio equipment). It is possible to get drawn into intense self-referential discussions, as most of us (including me) do at times, but in the long run that sort of thing does not sustain a net community in my experience.

(Of course, this whole thread is self-referential material.)

((Btw, I tried to vote for two items on the list, but it would only let me do one, fwiiw.))

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by curious
If you guys weren't taking pokes at each other there'd be hardly any daily volume.

Precisely.

-Ww

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
The way I would put it is that as the fraction of the posts that are basically UG self-referential material increases, my interest decreases. By "UG self-referential material" I mean posts that are primarily about UG or other UGers or the poster's own UG persona/conduct, as opposed to posts that are about something that exists independent of UG (whether it be provider reviews or discussions of hobbying/providing in general or Off Topic discussions of movies or politics or even the damn audio equipment). It is possible to get drawn into intense self-referential discussions, as most of us (including me) do at times, but in the long run that sort of thing does not sustain a net community in my experience.

I'm a FH, but I agree with that COMPLETELY.

(I'd even say it's another example of the bad influence of blog culture.)

[itlbn]

I'm still waiting to read your response to OddFellow's thread.

I agree with you as well; this thread is ironically in itself an "answer" to the poll.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by itlbn
I'm still waiting to read your response to OddFellow's thread.

It will probably be a few days, maybe a week...sorry about that. It also won't contain any huge surprises for those who have read enough of my previous posts about attitudes toward hobbying and so forth.

-Ww

[Daniel_NYC]

I have curtailed my posting of reviews simply because the majority of the women I currently see wish to remain way under the radar.

When I make the aquaintaince of someone that I discover is not a total newbie and is seeking additional clients, I do disclose my ability to write a review, and ask permission. I have found out on numerous occasions that the providers are quite unprepared to deal with the deluge of e - mails or phone calls that are the actual result of a positive UG review. This ultimately results in a request to have the review altered or contact information deleted.

I don't let other posters board persona detract from my like/dislike of UG. Some I find informative, others amusing. I find some peoples conduct and opinions appalling and others refreshing.

Just like in real life, it truly takes all kinds. I have learned to not take internet communication too seriously, but I do value honesty and quality information. If you have been around here for a while, you know which posters tastes run similar to your own, and who is just shilling for discounted sessions. It is easy to figure out after a previously reviewed session if the reviewer was giving you the staight dope on things. In short, you learn who to trust, and who to follow.

I applaud those who have the courage to bare their souls here. Often, I find myself identifying with their thoughts exactly. It offers me solace, in some strange way, that there are others who think, feel and act the way I do. Misery truly does love company. In the same vain it is nice to be around those of like mind.

I enjoy seeing others benefit from my labor. Even in real life, if I find a way to do something quicker, better, or cheaper, I have no problem sharing. I would hope that those that benefit from my knowledge, have the courtesy to share their knowlege in return.

Perhaps I have read way too much into this issue. One cannot deny that posting is way down.

Are finances tight?

Have people found alternative ways of choosing a provider?

[alterego]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
i can't believe people voted against sb. who doesn't love him?

*****, *******, ***, *****, and *******...

æ

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
(I'd even say it's another example of the bad influence of blog culture.)
so you want to insulate ug from blog culture? that's CRAZY.

it's so like: you kids and your rock and roll music.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
That is about right imo. The way I would put it is that as the fraction of the posts that are basically UG self-referential material increases, my interest decreases. By "UG self-referential material" I mean posts that are primarily about UG or other UGers or the poster's own UG persona/conduct, as opposed to posts that are about something that exists independent of UG (whether it be provider reviews or discussions of hobbying/providing in general or Off Topic discussions of movies or politics or even the damn audio equipment). It is possible to get drawn into intense self-referential discussions, as most of us (including me) do at times, but in the long run that sort of thing does not sustain a net community in my experience.

(Of course, this whole thread is self-referential material.)

((Btw, I tried to vote for two items on the list, but it would only let me do one, fwiiw.))

-Ww
while of course i take responsibility for my part in the personalizing of ug posting, i would be hard put to find a bigger culprit than cb, who spoke of cats and connecticut and g-d knows what else. moreover, your incessant fluffling exacerbated the situation 10fold. therefore, i think there's an issue of unclean hand w/r/t to your argument.

(i also think jl has unclean hands in this respect as well; however, given his relative equanimity, it is less egregious.)

[justlooking]

Wrong. It's so like: blogs are something different from discussion boards.

Blogs are like vehicles of pure self-expression. They're more like a personal column or collections of personal essays. The blogger is the subject of the blog. If they're good enough writers, and can think of interesting enough things to say (mostly about themselves) then fine.

Discussion boards exist to discuss a topic. Not to give free reign to the personas of posters. It's apples and organges.

It's not a bad rhetorical tactic to try to present this as a generation gap issue. But it isn't.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
Wrong. It's so like: blogs are something different from discussion boards.

Blogs are like vehicles of pure self-expression. They're more like a personal column or collections of personal essays. The blogger is the subject of the blog. If they're good enough writers, and can think of interesting enough things to say (mostly about themselves) then fine.

Discussion boards exist to discuss a topic. Not to give free reign to the personas of posters. It's apples and organges.

It's not a bad rhetorical tactic to try to present this as a generation gap issue. But it isn't.
listen if there is anyone who seminally brought blog culture onto whoreboards it's you for g-dsakes. please, it is impossible not to be influenced by them. i think they make you crochety; these are NOT the lincoln-douglas debates (despite justme's delusions of podia).

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
It's not a bad rhetorical tactic to try to present this as a generation gap issue. But it isn't. i think to dismiss it out hand is deceptive. of course being TRAINED in a certain modality you are going to prefer that modality. it only makes sense. why not accept that even you are subject to a certain amount of subjectivity?

[justlooking]

I'm glad you mentioned justme.

Cuz he's the guy who best expressed the key point. Which is that discussion of your own personal self is both inevitable and salutory when it arises out of a discussion.

What Wwanderer and I are talking about is personal-type discussions (or board-oriented meta-discussions) that don't arise out of on-topic discussions. (Instead they impede them.)

This post is really ironic, isn't it?

[justlooking]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
i think to dismiss it out hand is deceptive. of course being TRAINED in a certain modality you are going to prefer that modality. it only makes sense. why not accept that even you are subject to a certain amount of subjectivity?

I accept that. What I don't accept is that it's possible to have a successful topical discussion board where everybody ignores the topic and talks about themselves and each other.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Daniel_NYC
I have learned to not take internet communication too seriously.
this is the thing that i don't get why more people don't get. this is an unreal world. why take it so seriously?

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
I accept that. What I don't accept is that it's possible to have a successful topical discussion board where everybody ignores the topic and talks about themselves and each other.
yes, i know i have been guilty of this.

but, i really HATE when people are advancing an agenda and decrying personalism simultaneously. i HATE that shit. don't you?

[justlooking]

Not if it advances my agenda of the moment, I guess.

[justlooking]

[SFSF]

[h. von bingen]

also as i read back, you have only the most rudimentary understanding of blogs it seems to me.

[h. von bingen]

i always forget, what does sfsf mean?

[justlooking]

That is ENTIRELY likely. I really only know the ones you've linked.

[justlooking]

Stupid Fucking Smiley Face

[h. von bingen]

do you think people who vote against someone hampering their speech understand how disempowered they view themselves to be?

i kind of feel sorry for them.

[Wwanderer]

Fwiiw, I am happy to agree that it is all my fault or hvb's or cat's or jl's or SB's or C9's (sorry, guy, I almost forgot to include you) or Crater's or Ozzy's or Ari's or anyone else nominated or all of the above. What difference does it make?

(In passing, I would note that both cats and Conneticut exist independent of UG as far as I know, so those are not particularly good examples.)

I have never read a blog as far as I know...which suggests that I am losing my grip on net culture. All things pass I guess.

sfsf = :)

-Ww

[h. von bingen]

i don't think it's about fault ww.

i just think you're an odd one to make that particular argument.

[h. von bingen]

but i swear this is true:

i really feel bad for people who need to focus on an "enemy" as what's wrong with everything around anywhere.

i think noyl is a good example of that type of person, so is thorn.

that's crazy. i've got news for people who want to "purify" the board or whatever, there's always another person (or group), and you know, eventually, it's you.

i never wanted cb to stop posting, i just wanted her to stop being idiotic. unfortunately, given her backchannel blabbermouthing i see that's a terminal condition, and i wouldn't have been able to make a dent in that.

[NOYL]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
i've got news for people who want to "purify" the board...

I never wanted to "purify" UG. Just want it to be civil.

Originally posted by h. von bingen
i never wanted cb to stop posting, i just wanted her to stop being idiotic.

And wanting someone to stop being "idiotic" is not wanting to "purify" the board?

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
i don't think it's about fault ww.

I agree basically. While "mistakes were made" as they say, imo, nothing particularly unusual is happening here. Lots of net communities, and indeed lots of non-net human groups (e.g., the people working on a project or in some office), get totally bogged down in who likes (or approves of) whom, who is good or bad, who is kewl or pathetic, who is smart or dumb, who is popular or outcast and so forth and thus lose their primary functionality from time to time. Very common and no big sweat in this case (for most of us). UG will either recover more interesting content after a bit or it won't. If it doesn't, the content will exist (as it does now) elsewhere. Either way, the sky is not falling.

-Ww

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by NOYL
I never wanted to "purify" UG. Just want it to be civil.



And wanting someone to stop being "idiotic" is not wanting to "purify" the board? no because i would have welcomed an earlier version of herself. what happened is: she got increasing attention on ug and craig's list and started confusing many things. it was definitely a progressive problem, and i think many men here were more culpable than she. they were preying on her foolishness.

you are different. you have an unpleasant malevolence untempered by self-examination.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
I agree basically. While "mistakes were made" as they say, imo, nothing particularly unusual is happening here. Lots of net communities, and indeed lots of non-net human groups (e.g., the people working on a project or in some office), get totally bogged down in who likes (or approves of) whom, who is good or bad, who is kewl or pathetic, who is smart or dumb, who is popular or outcast and so forth and thus lose their primary functionality from time to time. Very common and no big sweat in this case (for most of us). UG will either recover more interesting content after a bit or it won't. If it doesn't, the content will exist (as it does now) elsewhere. Either way, the sky is not falling.

-Ww
i so couldn't agree more. bogged down is a great way to put it. i really can't believe people don't see the unreality of the whole endeavour. it fascinating actually. the sky isn't falling.

[Stitch]

Hvb, I think there is an important distinction, which you may not respect enough, between your situation and that of many of the more thoughtful posters here, like jl, justme and Ww. You are not seriously involved personally in pay for play. So this is therefore just another sandbox for you. As you suggested, an unreal world.

But there are issues in pay for play that--for the people actually involved--represent something more than an occasion for joking around or spatting away the day. There are some bright people here who, if intellectually provoked, can think in interesting ways about aspects of the subject. That doesn't mean no jokes. It just means there's a desire for some actual exploring.

It makes complete sense for a man like JL to personalize his situation with regard to pay for play. That's what gives the abstract issues life. It makes less sense for him to project his personality in other areas, unless it's in the off topic section. Now, I would never suggest any kind of strictness about this, that would suck the life out of the place, but what's also clear is that a balance has been lost. I know that I myself have not started a couple of threads about subjects that concern and interest me because, I thought, What's the point? It'll just become a thread filled with little one line posts that dribble away. It'll just become just another way I waste time.

[NOYL]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
...she got increasing attention on ug and craig's list...

So what is that to you? Is she taking business away from you?

Originally posted by h. von bingen
you are different. you have an unpleasant malevolence untempered by self-examination.

Just fighting fire with fire.

[itlbn]

Those that can't do often have to...preach

To the ones staring at the sun...

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Stitch
I myself have not started a couple of threads about subjects that concern and interest me because, I thought, What's the point? It'll just become a thread filled with little one line posts that dribble away. It'll just become just another way I waste time.

In a somewhat similar vein, I have actually already written a draft of a (rather long) post with which I intended to start a UG thread about a topic that I would very much enjoy discussing at least semi-seriously. It needs editing to make it more coherent and readable and to remove some items that seem to be too risky (re self-outing), but I haven't yet found the enthusiasm and time to get back to it, partly from being busy with other things but also in large part because I really doubt that it would generate the kind of discussion it once would have here.

(For clarity, I do not mean to imply that I am withholding this super material as an expression of my disapproval of the current "tone" of UG; it is simply that, like Stitch, I don't want to waste my time. And, for even greater clarity, it would/will be nothing all that super anyway; at best it would just generate one of those fairly thoughtful, semi-philosophical debates of the sort that used to be rather common on UG.)

-Ww

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Stitch
Hvb, I think there is an important distinction, which you may not respect enough, between your situation and that of many of the more thoughtful posters here, like jl, justme and Ww. You are not seriously involved personally in pay for play. So this is therefore just another sandbox for you. As you suggested, an unreal world.

But there are issues in pay for play that--for the people actually involved--represent something more than an occasion for joking around or spatting away the day. There are some bright people here who, if intellectually provoked, can think in interesting ways about aspects of the subject. That doesn't mean no jokes. It just means there's a desire for some actual exploring.

It makes complete sense for a man like JL to personalize his situation with regard to pay for play. That's what gives the abstract issues life. It makes less sense for him to project his personality in other areas, unless it's in the off topic section. Now, I would never suggest any kind of strictness about this, that would suck the life out of the place, but what's also clear is that a balance has been lost. I know that I myself have not started a couple of threads about subjects that concern and interest me because, I thought, What's the point? It'll just become a thread filled with little one line posts that dribble away. It'll just become just another way I waste time.


thanks stitch. that is absolutely true, and in fact, you quite agree with hombre who agrees with ozzy. i am not involved in this world to the extent of say a jl, and to that extent it is, as you so aptly put it, "just another sandbox." hombre has often urged me to temper my posts, and i know i ought to sometimes.

and, frankly, i do miss the extended (if repetitive) conversations and am more than willing to change my behaviour to encourage that type of discourse.

[UPPEREASTSIDE]

There's not a lot of new talent out there.
There are always new girls, but none that anyone here would bother with, like all the new eros girls.
All the ones we're interested in have been reviewed to death.

And even with the birth of Studio 5, Sweetspot, and the other lapdance joints, the days of the best ones are over and the talent has decreased big time.

Theres just not too much new stuff to review.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
In a somewhat similar vein, I have actually already written a draft of a (rather long) post with which I intended to start a UG thread about a topic that I would very much enjoy discussing at least semi-seriously. It needs editing to make it more coherent and readable and to remove some items that seem to be too risky (re self-outing), but I haven't yet found the enthusiasm and time to get back to it, partly from being busy with other things but also in large part because I really doubt that it would generate the kind of discussion it once would have here. -Ww

see post above. also i think it's fascinating that you would DRAFT something, i think this is an excellent example the varying degrees of "seriosity" among posters.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by NOYL
1. So what is that to you? Is she taking business away from you?



2. Just fighting fire with fire.
no, but she became aware of her impact and her discourse changed quite a bit. elliot encapsulated the whole scenario so nicely in the cat ballou thread, i am loathe to revisit it. that was fucking excellent elliot.

you malevolence and my i don't give a shit attitude are two horses of different colours. i realize why you would prefer not to think so, but i go back to my earlier statement: at the end of the day you are still you. (i'm sorry.)

(and btw, why would i vote that you have stopped me from posting? you haven't. in fact, from time to time, i have tried to engage you in discourse, more than less threatening people have in fact.)

[justlooking]

(I never draft things in advance, either, but . . . .)

If you're saying you don't think it's a good and salutory thing to THINK about what you post, and the possible effects it could have on yourself and others, before you post it, then that explains some of the things I don't like about you as a poster. Speaking for myself, while I don't draft in advance, I often hit the "delete" button if I realize that some planned post will probably be more disruptive than anything else.

Also, if you don't see how different your position is from most of the other posters here, in terms of the potential costs of self-revelation (and so the care that must be spent to avoid it), then you're really insensitive to whoreboard dynamics.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
thanks stitch. that is absolutely true, and in fact, you quite agree with hombre who agrees with ozzy. i am not involved in this world to the extent of say a jl, and to that extent it is, as you so aptly put it, "just another sandbox." hombre has often urged me to temper my posts, and i know i ought to sometimes.

and, frankly, i do miss the extended (if repetitive) conversations and am more than willing to change my behaviour to encourage that type of discourse.

And, of course, you DO have something unique to contribute to on-topic discussions, as your on-topic posts often demonstrate.

[Kimmie]

WTF?????????


I want a fuckin' vote!!!!!!!!!!

Dammit!!!!!!!

and Slinky, where's my f'ing tag????

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
(I never draft things in advance, either, but . . . .)

1. If you're saying you don't think it's a good and salutory thing to THINK about what you post, and the possible effects it could have on yourself and others, before you post it, then that explains some of the things I don't like about you as a poster. Speaking for myself, while I don't draft in advance, 1 (a) I often hit the "delete" button if I realize that some planned post will probably be more disruptive than anything else.

2. Also, if you don't see how different your position is from most of the other posters here, in terms of the potential costs of self-revelation (and so the care that must be spent to avoid it), then you're really insensitive to whoreboard dynamics.

1. o come on. you know i don't think that.
1a. yeah like that dog/cancer thing? the worst thing about you jl is that you are used to getting away with stuff because other people don't notice. as i've said ad nauseum, i notice. (ick this so sounded like thorn.)

2. of course i do. but i think you are really discussing what the purpose of this place is. and i wonder, what is the purpose of this place?

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Kimmie
WTF?????????


I want a fuckin' vote!!!!!!!!!!

Dammit!!!!!!!

and Slinky, where's my f'ing tag????
g-d i love you. i'll get hombre to vote for you if you want.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
And, of course, you DO have something unique to contribute to on-topic discussions, as your on-topic posts often demonstrate.
ick.

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by Cloud Nine
'cause if you think about it, according to rule 19, if someone doesnt post, its gotta be my fault.

Yeah. So take the total, and that's how many votes you get. It's just an economy, because you get all of them in the end.

Originally posted by Cloud Nine
and why isnt there an option for those of us who honestly dont give a fuck what anybody says and will post irregardless?

a) that's still not a word
b) because the poll is about people who stopped posting

[justlooking]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
1a. yeah like that dog/cancer thing?

That dog/cancer thing was uncharacteristic. Frankly, I stopped posting for a day or so (well, maybe a half a day), cuz I thought that if I was so pissed off at the board that I submitted rather than deleted that post (cuz that's EXACTLY the kind of post I write a lot of but don't post a lot of), I'd do better by staying off it.

Also, although I don't want to say this and will say ABSOLUTELY nothing about it again in the future, the reason that post got past my defense mechanisms was that I was in the middle of an actual personal tragedy type of thing -- kinda sorta like what Psychosis was writing about, in fact, except that it affected a human (you know, the class of beings that Psychosis has always said he doesn't give a shit about) instead of a pet, and, given what I was going through with no idea of ever looking for sympathy on a fucking whoreboard, the idea that some guy would expose that kind of petty problem on the board after weeks of saying he had no sympathy for anyone just made me lose it. And I'm sorry I did.

Originally posted by h. von bingen
and i wonder, what is the purpose of this place?

To discuss commercial sex, as far as I can tell.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
1. That dog/cancer thing was uncharacteristic. Frankly, I stopped posting for a day or so (well, maybe a half a day), cuz I thought that if I was so pissed off at the board that I submitted rather than deleted that post (cuz that's EXACTLY the kind of post I write a lot of but don't post a lot of), I'd do better by staying off it. Also, although I don't want to say this and will say ABSOLUTELY nothing about it again in the future, the reason that post got past my defense mechanisms was that I was in the middle of an actual personal tragedy type of thing -- kinda sorta like what Psychosis was writing about, in fact, except that it affected a human (you know, the class of beings that Psychosis has always said he doesn't give a shit about) instead of a pet, and, given what I was going through with no idea of ever looking for sympathy on a fucking whoreboard, the idea that some guy would expose that kind of petty problem on the board after weeks of saying he had no sympathy for anyone just made me lose it. And I'm sorry I did.



2. To discuss commercial sex, as far as I can tell.
1. wow. sorry.
2. what does that mean?

[h. von bingen]

but just to be absolutely fair jl, what you think you do through wry wit, you don't do so much. (and i'm not going to say more about that.) but you know what i mean i'm sure.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
ick.

I couldn't think of a non-icky way to put it.

But it is an important fact that tends to get lost in the noise you generate (and I'm not talking only about noise emanating from yourself).

[Slinky Bender]

Numbers changes to reflect "invalid votes" ( like Judge Crater voting 4 times)

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
I couldn't think of a non-icky way to put it.

But it is an important fact that tends to get lost in the noise you generate (and I'm not talking only about noise emanating from yourself). of course, i know you realize, that even without the combatative stance, the poll would be won (or lost), right?

i must say, i think that fact goes unlacknowledged by all except a very few.

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by Wwanderer


((Btw, I tried to vote for two items on the list, but it would only let me do one, fwiiw.))

-Ww

yeah, I fucked up and didn't put "allow multiple votes" in the original posting, and the fucking software doesn't inlcude that in the editing features.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by slinkybender
Numbers changes to reflect "invalid votes" ( like Judge Crater voting 4 times)
yes, it wouldn't be fair if ALL of crater's personalities got a vote.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
of course, i know you realize, that even without the combatative stance, the poll would be won (or lost), right?

i must say, i think that fact goes unacknowledged by all except a very few.
and that is only important insofar as i have to endure lectures from the likes of thorn.

[billyS]

My situation has become somewhat likes Dan's where I am still active but am restricted in what I can review, however, I cast my vote for hvb.
The thing about HVB is that she is just too dominate a personality, She must be posting 24/7. She even shows up in the CB Forum. It is not her opinions that bother me as much as the fact that she takes over every fucking thread and turns it into a private "look how clever we are" conversation with jl, Wwander, pjorouke and a few others. Kimmie used to hijack threads but never to this degree. Its not even worth getting in on a discussion because you know at some point you are going to get a snotty little remark from hvb. Or the the thread turns into hvb bringing up Cat again. Notice she worked it into this thread. I start reading a thread, I see four pages of nothing but hvb, jl and Wwanderer having a private conversation and its just not worth it. I come here to talk about pussy, how it feels when your cock is in it, where to get it on the cheap, who are the best provider, that kind of shit.

[h. von bingen]

so you're saying you feel silenced and marginalized by me?

[billyS]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
so you're saying you feel silenced and marginalized by me?
No you dumb bitch, get over yourself. Your a pest, like a fucking fly at a picnic.

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

Cuz Shredder wasn't on the list

[Fucktoy]

never talk is why, toooooo busy swallowing

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by billyS
No you dumb bitch, get over yourself. Your a pest, like a fucking fly at a picnic. but that was the question. do you POST less b/c . . .

[dumbslave]

Originally posted by slinkybender
Numbers changes to reflect "invalid votes" ( like Judge Crater voting 4 times)

Mabel: Ya gotta vote early and often in a machine run town.

Eleanor: I think the dead should be able to vote too.

Mabel: I agree. How do you feel about fictitious characters voting?

Eleanor: Why not? Characters have embedded points of view that dictate and proscribe the limitations of expression, logic and perception. It's all about character in the final analysis.

Mabel: So true. So true. People can never tell you what they are unable to see due to the limitation of their characters. You have to watch them move about and witness their limitations and prejudices.

Eleanor: I'd like Father Brown to vote.

Mabel: I think John Boulnois and Flambeau should vote too.

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

Originally posted by billyS
No you dumb bitch, get over yourself. Your a pest, like a fucking fly at a picnic.

Yep. Know what you mean.

[justlooking]

Jesus, hvb. What's he's saying is that the volume of your (and mine, to be fair) off-topic posts creates an impossible-to-ignore distraction that disrupts discussions and makes the board less interesting for him to read, which leads him to post less.

Did I get that right, billy?

[billyS]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
but that was the question. do you POST less b/c . . .
I forgot, you're a lawyer.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
Jesus, hvb. What's he's saying is that the volume of your (and mine, to be fair) off-topic posts creates an impossible-to-ignore distraction that disrupts discussions and makes the board less interesting for him to read, which leads him to post less.

Did I get that right, billy? yeah, but that's not the question the poll is asking . . . i KNOW what he meant.

[h. von bingen]

you know what's kind of fun? bringing the seething misogyny to the surface. because let's face it, guys are worried that castrating bitches run their world. (because, for the most part, if they didn't feel that way they wouldn't NEED to see prostitutes, it is a form of POWERLESSNESS.) so when somebody like billy s calls me a dumb bitch, it's incredibly amusing.

(sorry for the digression.)

[Fucktoy]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
you know what's kind of fun? bringing the seething misogyny to the surface. because let's face it, guys are worried that castrating bitches run their world. (because, for the most part, if they didn't feel that way they wouldn't NEED to see prostitutes, it is a form of POWERLESSNESS.) so when somebody like billy s calls me a dumb bitch, it's incredibly amusing.

(sorry for the digression.)

Of course it's about power and control. johns are sorta like rapists.

[itlbn]

The egocentricity of your outlook is astonishing, mind-boggling...etc.; it's almost embarassing because I'm starting to feel like you're starting to bare more of yourself (whether that is your intention or not) than I really care to see.

I know I promised to leave it alone, but I'm only human. Sorry.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Fucktoy
Of course it's about power and control. johns are sorta like rapists.
wow! quite a statement.

yes sorta, although i think it's unfair to tar them with the same brush as rapists, because in theory you have consensual sex. however, the singlemost striking aspect of first posting on jag was the overwhelming neediness and powerlessness of the men. now, i think whoreboard posters are a self-selecting group, and they are probably unique in their drive toward NEEDING intimacy with women. still it's palpable.

i don't find this neediness as repulsive as they themselves probably do, but it is interesting. it will be interesting to see how the world of commercial sex evolves when more women have the resources and empowerment to purchase commercial sex.

[h. von bingen]

this would be an excellent topic for its own thread. excellent. although this might be the kind of self revelation to which jl alludes. i dunno, but it would be a digression here, i think.

[alterego]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
how the world of commercial sex evolves when more women have the resources and empowerment to purchase commercial sex.

Somebody might finally answer my fake Eros ad.

æ

[h. von bingen]

i have to tell you, given the sorry state of heterosexual male prostitution, i think just delivering the goods would make you a millionaire.

[Kimmie]

billys, can you pretend its two years ago, and vote for me?????PLEASE!!!!!!

( ahhh I got an idea. I will speak to you all on a level you all might understand..)


Vote for me, and you get one free BJ...

[alterego]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
guys are worried that castrating bitches run their world.

Some guys really do have castrating bitches running their world. But my guess is they mostly aren't the same guys that are here.

æ

[alterego]

Originally posted by Kimmie
Vote for me, and you get one free BJ...

Uh oh... what happens to me if I voted for Slinky???

æ

[Kimmie]

Originally posted by alterego
Uh oh... what happens to me if I voted for Slinky???

æ

He gives you two???

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by alterego
Some guys really do have castrating bitches running their world. But my guess is they mostly aren't the same guys that are here.

æ
i disagree with you. i think there alot of them here. alot. more than half, i'd say. the most vocal misogynists for sure.

[NOYL]

Kimmie, how will you know who voted for you?

[alterego]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
i have to tell you, given the sorry state of heterosexual male prostitution, i think just delivering the goods would make you a millionaire.

I think it's a problem of insufficient demand rather than insufficient supply.

If serious money were really out there, I bet guys who deliver would magically appear.

æ

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Kimmie
He gives you two??? you're too funny. why do you want someone to vote for you? do you have a preference?

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by alterego
I think it's a problem of insufficient demand rather than insufficient supply.
æ
yes and no. i think with something as covert as commercial sex i think it must be difficult ot ascertain the initial market. i think this is growth industry. i do. especially when baby boomers wives outlive their husbands.

[alterego]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
i think it must be difficult ot ascertain the initial market.


I suspect that's because the market is basically not there.

If it was there it would already have developed into something more significant by now via the quasi-business end of adult personal sites, or male strippers, or some route like that. But it never did.

The number of heterosexual men who want to have encounters with strangers so vastly outnumbers the number of heterosexual women who do that there's just not going to be a significant women-pay-men market. Maybe at the level of 1% of the industry. Even if it grew because women had more money (and I really don't think this is why it's not there) it would still be tiny compared to the men-pay-women side.

æ

[billyS]

Originally posted by Kimmie
billys, can you pretend its two years ago, and vote for me?????PLEASE!!!!!!

( ahhh I got an idea. I will speak to you all on a level you all might understand..)


Vote for me, and you get one free BJ...
Done, sweetheart.

[curious]

Originally posted by Kimmie
billys, can you pretend its two years ago, and vote for me?????PLEASE!!!!!!

( ahhh I got an idea. I will speak to you all on a level you all might understand..)


Vote for me, and you get one free BJ...

Oh, sure...

Stuff the ballot box, whydontcha. :D

[curious]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
i have to tell you, given the sorry state of heterosexual male prostitution, i think just delivering the goods would make you a millionaire.

What 'goods' might those be? Enlighten us.

(I'm assuming you mean something beyond the purely physical, otherwise, I agree w/ Casper (http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17064&highlight=show))

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
i think it's fascinating that you would DRAFT something

I am sure it is quite obvious, but it is very rare for me to draft a post off-line. Normally even my longer and more complex posts are just typed-in directly and then inadequately edited for 3 minutes, just like everyone else I imagine. I have drafted posts a hand full of times before; the most likely reasons are that I have some time but no net connection (e.g., on a plane) or there is something delicate about it (like danger of outing myself or someone else or some even greater than normal danger of being misunderstood) or I am not really sure if I want to post it at all but am sure that I want to write it. All of the above apply to some extent in this case.

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by billyS
every fucking thread and turns it into a private "look how clever we are" conversation with jl, Wwander, pjorouke and a few others. ... I start reading a thread, I see four pages of nothing but hvb, jl and Wwanderer having a private conversation

I think that this is a fair complaint, if perhaps slightly exaggerated. There is a tendancy for me and the others you name, and some others not named too, to have something like public private conversations spread over a needlessly large number of threads. So, I plead guilty to some extent. Don't forget about the Ignore button though; it will make a lot of clutter (from your perspective) disappear. It is also pretty easy to scroll through stuff without reading it...takes a little practise maybe but is an alternative to turning someone off completely with Ignore.

Btw, if there were a UG chatroom, it would probably absorb much of this "chatter posting".

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

On the quite possibly erroneous assumption that UG management is considering taking some action to rectify the "problem" rather than just promoting its (counterproductive) discussion, it may be worth thinking about an option that I have seen work fairly well elsewhere: Combine a chat room with a limit on the number of posts per screen name (or IP addy) per day. This motivates people to go to the chat room for the banter and chatter and trash talking and so forth and to use their limited number of posts to say things of more substance or of more general interest.

Obviously people can circumvent the rule by having multiple screen names and some will do so, but it at least nudges many users in a desirable direction. Fwiiw, I don't reallly like the system because it produces different sorts of frustrations and distortions of the discussion, but it is a possibility worth considering perhaps.

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by itlbn
I'm still waiting to read your response to OddFellow's thread.

Contrary to my previous post, it did not take me days to get to it. I just made the post. I figured it was better than spending more time on this meta-discussion thread.

-Ww

[jp1064]

What general negative attitude?

[jp1064]

Originally posted by thevenerablebede
the place has changed and i wish bill f was still here ain't that the truth!

[blondekelly]

the place has changed and i wish bill f was still here
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- he is here in spirit

[jp1064]

and lurking I'm sure.

[blondekelly]

Originally posted by jp1064
and lurking I'm sure. ----very much so

[blondekelly]

Originally posted by blondekelly
----very much so ----- I still feel his penis inside of me( I wish)

[vermeer]

I've noticed that most of the discussion here centers around everything - but whores. Restaurants, TV shows. But no whores.

That's because you can't write negative reviews of advertisers, and you can't post any review of non-advertisers(in a practical sense).

ergo, no whore discussion. (but plenty of inter-whore chatting)

so what's the point of the site?

to have a dynamic whore site, you MUST allow all posts. even the shills. forget all the rules - unless you want to be boring (which is the direction ug is moving in). this isn't switzerland, or singapore. it's a discussion about fucking whores!

"as far as pussy, we'll let the market sort itself out"

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by vermeer
That's because you can't write negative reviews of advertisers, and you can't post any review of non-advertisers(in a practical sense). i think your wrong on both these counts.

[h. von bingen]

fuck -- you're -- sorry

[sod]

Originally posted by Stitch
Hvb, I think there is an important distinction, which you may not respect enough, between your situation and that of many of the more thoughtful posters here, like jl, justme and Ww. You are not seriously involved personally in pay for play. So this is therefore just another sandbox for you. As you suggested, an unreal world.

This is why I stopped posting, more or less. I felt like I was no longer capable of making a meaningful contribution as I had removed myself from the pay for play game. Plus, all the talk about providers doesn't help a guy in the early stages of retirement.

[h. von bingen]

sod i'm so happy for you. but i do miss your voice a whole hell of alot.

[sod]

Right back at ya. You'll notice I quit posting when you were on hiatus. That made it easier.

[occasionalhobbyist]

Originally posted by Fucktoy
johns are sorta like rapists.

That's IT! We're rapists who tip.

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by vermeer
I've noticed that most of the discussion here centers around everything - but whores. Restaurants, TV shows. But no whores.

That's because you can't write negative reviews of advertisers, and you can't post any review of non-advertisers(in a practical sense).

ergo, no whore discussion. (but plenty of inter-whore chatting)

so what's the point of the site?

to have a dynamic whore site, you MUST allow all posts. even the shills. forget all the rules - unless you want to be boring (which is the direction ug is moving in). this isn't switzerland, or singapore. it's a discussion about fucking whores!

"as far as pussy, we'll let the market sort itself out"

I take back all the times I agreed with HvB that he had a brain.

[plat122]

This tread is a little over the top. I have never viewed myself as a rapist. You Andrea Dworkin types have it all wrong. Legalize hooking and everything will be OK.

[Slinky Bender]

Of course, Dworkin thinks that consensual sex during marriage is rape, too, so............. (i.e. I agree with platt "Tex" 122).

[h. von bingen]

i have never had the patience to slog through enough andrea dworkin and catherine mackinnon therefore i am unfamiliar with their arguments vis a vis consensual sex within marriage as rape.

is it something like: women have to marry to attain economic subsistence, sex is part of that contract and therefore because she has made that contract under duress, sex=rape?

i've always had a problem with what i view as impractical feminism, that is, the kind that makes men the enemy.

but the mention of dworkin and mackinnon did bring back a funny memory, i went to law school when pc was kind of prevailing. the rigid lefts (especially the women's bar association) disliked me almost as much as some guys on ug do.

all in all a track record of which i can be proud.

[gardener]

Originally posted by slinkybender
I take back all the times I agreed with HvB that he had a brain.

Talking about "brain"... What happens to your one? Okay, you probably got one (if I remember right) but it hadn't been operated anywhere close to it's full capacity lately. Letting a good thing you've built getting destroyed, is not an evidence of an healthy functional brain.

Do you really need this poll to figure out what is wrong, and why members have stopped participating?

Can't you see how every (almost) single thread is being polluted with endless dribble, courtesy of HvB (un)Ltd.?

* The IGNORE button won't cure those HvB cancer cells.

I'll bet you, (every physician will confirm) that by removing the disease, you'll cause UG a fantastic rebloom.

Even better, get on your knees and beg CB to come back, and you'll see the renaissance coming your way.

[alterego]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
but the mention of dworkin and mackinnon did bring back a funny memory, i went to law school when pc was kind of prevailing. the rigid lefts (especially the women's bar association) disliked me almost as much as some guys on ug do.


Disliked you more, I'd bet.

Anyhow, I don't think the marital-sex-as-rape argument was nearly as sophisticated as you're making it. If I remember correctly, Dworkin applied it to ALL heterosexual sex, not just marraige. And I think the basic argument was penis=penetration=violence.

æ

[alterego]

Originally posted by gardener
I'll bet you, (every physician will confirm) that by removing the disease, you'll cause UG a fantastic rebloom.

Or some other obnoxious poster would spring up to piss every one off. There's one in every crowd. Might as well be HvB.

æ

[h. von bingen]

hey! thanks for the support ae.

[alterego]

That's support?????

æ

(I guess you have to take what you can get...)

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by gardener
Can't you see how every (almost) single thread is being polluted with endless dribble, courtesy of HvB (un)Ltd.?

uh that would be DRIVEL gardener. hey after "purifying" ug, i am certain there are any number of other societies that would welcome you into their midst.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by alterego
That's support?????

æ

(I guess you have to take what you can get...)
hey, if nothing else, i think (or don't think) outside the box.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by alterego
I think the basic argument was penis=penetration=violence.

æ
that's incredibly retarded.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by gardener
Even better, get on your knees and beg CB to come back, and you'll see the renaissance coming your way.

So you're saying that the only way this forum can flourish is if the only women who post here are sexually available and play up to men?

[Kimmie]

Originally posted by justlooking
So you're saying that the only way this forum can flourish is if the only women who post here are sexually available and play up to men?


How could you ask such a stupid question?

[Kimmie]

I see I have 2 voutes.. woo hoo..

A free blow job to the two men (or women..in which case it would be one free carpet munch..) that voted for me.

(though, those blow jobs won't necassarily come from me) :p

[alterego]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
that's incredibly retarded.

Hey, I didn't say it was a good argument.

MacKinnon is a more sophisticated writer IMHO, although I still disagree with most of what she's saying.

æ

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Kimmie
How could you ask such a stupid question?

Do you mean: it's stupid that I would think gardener thinks that (in which case I disagree with you, cuz I think he does think that).

Or: if gardener thinks that, it's stupid (in which case I agree with you 100%).

[h. von bingen]

oh yeah gardener, i forgot:

castrating bitches rule your world.

(rock on.)

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by alterego
Hey, I didn't say it was a good argument.

MacKinnon is a more sophisticated writer IMHO, although I still disagree with most of what she's saying.

æ mackinnon was very popular when i was in school, and she's obviously quite brilliant. but, i did something which you are NEVER supposed to do in law school. i didn't respond rationally to her arguments, i responded viscerally.

[NOYL]

Originally posted by Kimmie
I see I have 2 voutes.. woo hoo..

A free blow job to the two men (or women..in which case it would be one free carpet munch..) that voted for me.

(though, those blow jobs won't necassarily come from me) :p

I'd be really worried if BMM posts that he will give free BBBJ's to anyone who votes for him.

[Kimmie]

Originally posted by justlooking
Do you mean: if gardener thinks that, it's stupid (in which case I agree with you 100%).

Yeah, but more like, its stupid, but you should know that is why most men are here.. You are obviously here for a different reason.

You really shouldnt knock men that actually want to use the board to find a whore, while you just use it to kill time in a long boring day.


This is a whore board.. right???

Not everyone wants to engage in meaningful discussions,. They just want their cock sucked, and use this board to make sure they are getting their monies worth.

[justlooking]

He may have to if he wants to get his vote total up.

Frankly, NOYL, you're not getting too many votes, either. You might think about what you're willing to offer to get people to vote for you.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Kimmie
Not everyone wants to engage in meaningful discussions,. They just want their cock sucked, and use this board to make sure they are getting their monies worth.

But gardener is talking about something different. He's not talking about informational posts. He's talking about posts that look like discussion posts, but really are just more cocksucking.

[NOYL]

Originally posted by justlooking
Frankly, NOYL, you're not getting too many votes, either.

That's fine with me. I guess I'm not as annoying as some people claim I am.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by NOYL
That's fine with me. I guess I'm not as annoying as some people claim I am. don't be ridiculous, or course you are annoying as some people claim you are,* you are merely not the annoyance DU J O U R. additionally, i have the advantage of being a woman and all and not giving out blowjobs even.

*for the record, i don't think noyl is annoying. i think he plays an extremely important role on ug.

[Kimmie]

Originally posted by justlooking
But gardener is talking about something different. He's not talking about informational posts. He's talking about posts that look like discussion posts, but really are just more cocksucking.


So..

Why do you care if a whore and a john are using the board to stroke their egos???

If my memory serves me correctly, UG was a fun place to be back when fluffing was allowed, and there were more hookers here..

Just like if they dont want to read you, hvb, ww and inc. you too can just put them on ignore, like everyone seems to be doing to the "Inc. Posse."


*I* think if Slinky wants to bring back posters, he needs to do the exact opposite of the vote I am about to cast..

[alterego]

Originally posted by NOYL
I'd be really worried if BMM posts that he will give free BBBJ's to anyone who votes for him.

Why is BMM even included in the poll???

He's not nearly as annoying as anybody else there.

O.K. the constant self-loathing can be a bit much, but hell, you might as well put JL on the list too then, and half the rest of the board.

æ

[NOYL]

Originally posted by Kimmie
*I* think if Slinky wants to bring back posters, he needs to do the exact opposite of the vote I am about to cast..

You voted for yourself?

[elliot16]

Originally posted by Fucktoy
Of course it's about power and control. johns are sorta like rapists.

Give me a fucking break. Oh, I see and you're like a rape victim? That is so pathetic and also so demeaning to women who have been abused, raped and truly victimized by men.

You choose to sell sexual services. If your analogy holds true, then tell me when a rape victim consents to have sex with the rapist and is not coerced by violence or threat of violence and also please tell me when it is that they leave the scene of the crime with their pockets enriched?

[h. von bingen]

you know, kimmie you're right. i know i have been guilty of less good humour. (it's easy for me to admit, but i know that probably nobody else would, and those very people who should also admit responsibility will only say: see! she admits she's wrong!)

i think a certain amount of fluffing is absolutely fun. (and i do miss the interactions you and i and ana and i had.) but, i think that it had reached a kind of frenzy (along with a concommitant disingenuousness on the part of the participants about what they were doing). moreover, when a person is constantly stroking any male ego, it makes it more difficult for a woman to voice an unpopular position.

a number of people have asked me what sparked my irritation with cb. i'm thinking about it. i think it was a conflation of a number of things, but i must say i do save a secial ring in hell for collaborateurs, if you know what i mean.

[plat122]

The John's are actually the ones being raped. Go to any AMP and try to get full service for under a C note. Walk into a strip joint with a fist full of cash and a pocket full of candy and all you will walk out with is a pocket full of candy. When sex for sell is illegal nobody benefits. Not the customer nor the provider!

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by plat122
The John's are actually the ones being raped. Go to any AMP and try to get full service for under a C note. Walk into a strip joint with a fist full of cash and a pocket full of candy and all you will walk out with is a pocket full of candy. When sex for sell is illegal nobody benefits. Not the customer nor the provider!
can i just say: this is an excellent discussion and merits its own thread. because really aren't there participants on both sides that "rape"* the other side. see what excessive fluffing and sucking up does is eliminate the possibility of a serious discussion on a serious matter. ie, is this "rape" of a party, inherent in commercial sex?

*the word rape ought not be bandied about. oth, i think fucktoy is courageous for expressing an opinion that no doubt many prostiutes hold.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by elliot16
Give me a fucking break. but would you disagree it's about power and control? i mean the reason men pay women to have sex with them is certitude is it not?

[plat122]

I doubt prostitutes hold that openion. Radical fiminist would ...but a working girl is more practical. How much money can I make and what do I have to do. The Dworkins of the world are just finatics.

[elliot16]

Originally posted by gardener
Talking about "brain"... What happens to your one? Okay, you probably got one (if I remember right) but it hadn't been operated anywhere close to it's full capacity lately. Letting a good thing you've built getting destroyed, is not an evidence of an healthy functional brain.

Do you really need this poll to figure out what is wrong, and why members have stopped participating?

Can't you see how every (almost) single thread is being polluted with endless dribble, courtesy of HvB (un)Ltd.?

* The IGNORE button won't cure those HvB cancer cells.

I'll bet you, (every physician will confirm) that by removing the disease, you'll cause UG a fantastic rebloom.

Even better, get on your knees and beg CB to come back, and you'll see the renaissance coming your way.


Hmmm...interesting thought. Cut out the cancer (HVB) and use CB as the chemotherapy. Then health resumes on UG? But what about the side effects of the chemo like hair loss, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, weight loss, anemia (which causes lethargy, shortness of breath, and could cause heart failure), as well as the neutropenia which increases the risk of infection and sepsis? Doctor, could the cure be worse than the disease?

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by plat122
I doubt prostitutes hold that openion. Radical fiminist would ...but a working girl is more practical. How much money can I make and what do I have to do. The Dworkins of the world are just finatics.
what opinion?
the opinion that prostitutes are raped? clearly one does.
or the opinon that johns are raped? clearly one does.

[elliot16]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
but would you disagree it's about power and control? i mean the reason men pay women to have sex with them is certitude is it not?

Yes, this is a major element on both sides of the equation. What I object to is that the act as well as the word rape are so emotionally charged and bring in the issue of victimization in such an unbalanced way as to distort the dynamics of the interaction.

[alterego]

Originally posted by elliot16
Doctor, could the cure be worse than the disease?

Cheese poisoning. Very dangerous for the lactose intolerant.

æ

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by elliot16
Yes, this is a major element on both sides of the equation. What I object to is that the act as well as the word rape are so emotionally charged and bring in the issue of victimization in such an unbalanced way as to distort the dynamics of the interaction.
yes, see my comments above. oth, fucktoy said "sorta like rape."

[capitan]

OK...I admit that I did not read all the pages in this thread, but I suspect that most of us are worried about breaking some or many of the UG rules....and are afraid to post some good data and info.

No one want's to get banned from a really good website such as this...so, caution shall prevail.


Straight ahead,
Capy

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by capitan
OK...I admit that I did not read all the pages in this thread, but 2. I suspect that most of us are worried about breaking some or many of the UG rules....and are afraid to post some good data and info.

1. No one want's to get banned from a really good website such as this...so, caution shall prevail.


Straight ahead,
Capy
1. naysayers take heed.
2. isn't it pretty simple capy. you can post whatever information about a prostitute that you want, as long as you do it in good faith without self-interest. i don't see why so many people find this concept so complex.

[jseah]

Originally posted by Kimmie
(though, those blow jobs won't necassarily come from me) :p

you know I love you and would do almost anything for you........but this is going waaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy too far.......

[alterego]

Originally posted by capitan
but I suspect that most of us are worried about breaking some or many of the UG rules....and are afraid to post some good data and info.


UG has its strengths and weaknesses.

It's a very good site (I think) for interesting general discussion about commercial sex.

It's not terrifically good as a search engine for info on specific girls, especially if you don't happen to live in NYC, in which case it's basically useless.

But so what... there's other places for that. And the discussions in those other places generally suck.

æ

[occasionalhobbyist]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
but would you disagree it's about power and control? i mean the reason men pay women to have sex with them is certitude is it not?

Well, I do it for love.

;)

[jseah]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
but would you disagree it's about power and control? i mean the reason men pay women to have sex with them is certitude is it not?

uhhhhh.......I believe you meant servitude??????

[elliot16]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
yes, see my comments above. oth, fucktoy said "sorta like rape."

When a woman says that something is like rape it is saying that that thing makes her feel as if has been violated against her will. It is (outside of the case of actual rape) a self pitying comment which is meant to elicit the response of "Oh, you poor weak unfortunate victim of those evil brutal men."

I think it's disingenuous to cry about your job that way. You've said yourself and I believe it deeply "If you don't like what you're doing, then go back to school and educate yourself. Change your life, that's no one's responsibility but one's own." The mantle of vicimization is most easily and often worn by those who either are too weak or too lazy to put the effort into making their life better.

[jseah]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
you know, kimmie you're right. i know i have been guilty of less good humour. (it's easy for me to admit, but i know that probably nobody else would, and those very people who should also admit responsibility will only say: see! she admits she's wrong!)


I think I am pretty laid back and laissez faire.......but some of your comments and your relentlessness even caused me to cringe at times.......and smacked of (in my opinion) being a tad bit over the top............

that doesn't mean that I agree that your voice should be silenced......

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
that's incredibly retarded.

From what I saw of it, "incredibly angry" would be closer to the mark. But I am with Yoda on this one; anger, even justified anger, is a step on the path to the dark side.

-Ww

[plat122]

The reason men pay for sex is that ....we have the money and want to have sex.

[occasionalhobbyist]

Originally posted by jseah
uhhhhh.......I believe you meant servitude??????

I wouldn't think so.

i.e., we pay=we get laid. Certitude. (None of this, "not tonight, I'm tired," crap.)

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by elliot16
The mantle of vicimization is most easily and often worn by those who either are too weak or too lazy to put the effort into making their life better. i almost agree with this. but as i have said before, because i was atypical in my law school class and made it there against certain odds and on own (not the product of private schools and privilege despite the disinformation in that respect), right wingers and libertarians were always trying to get me to support this argument. but it's too simplistic to say people become thus and such because they are too lazy to do otherwise. it's almost too complicated to know why anybody does anything.

i guess the same argument can be made about johns, they are too weak and lazy to obtain more appropriate sexual partners?

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by jseah
I think I am pretty laid back and laissez faire.......but some of your comments and your relentlessness even caused me to cringe at times.......and smacked of (in my opinion) being a tad bit over the top............
yeah, i know. thanks jseah. happy easter.

[Kimmie]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
you know, kimmie you're right. i know i have been guilty of less good humour. (it's easy for me to admit, but i know that probably nobody else would, and those very people who should also admit responsibility will only say: see! she admits she's wrong!)

i think a certain amount of fluffing is absolutely fun. (and i do miss the interactions you and i and ana and i had.) but, i think that it had reached a kind of frenzy (along with a concommitant disingenuousness on the part of the participants about what they were doing). moreover, when a person is constantly stroking any male ego, it makes it more difficult for a woman to voice an unpopular position.



hvb, since we are admitting guilt, I too am guilty of reading some of the fluffs and feeling nauseas.

I would name names, but I think everyone pretty much knows who irriates me most when I read their posts.....

Having been an advertiser, and also a member that just wanted to participate in discussion, I have to share that I enjoyed being on the board most when I was an advertiser. ( cuz I would log on, post my availablity, and logged off, without having to deal with the drama..)


NOYL, I didn't vote for myself.

I am curious though as to who cast that 3rd vote. ( and if it was you, and your like.... 1millionth attempt to get head from me, forget it.. Your votes don't count.. :p )

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by occasionalhobbyist
Well, I do it for love.

;)
well, that's why i post on ug: love of the game. (ugh!)

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
anger, even justified anger, is a step on the path to the dark side.

-Ww
there are any number of ways to the dark side. no?

[NOYL]

Originally posted by Kimmie
I am curious though as to who cast that 3rd vote. ( and if it was you, and your like.... 1millionth attempt to get head from me, forget it.. Your votes don't count.. :p )

Sorry to disappoint you but I don't vote for you. I cast my ballot for my dear old friend hvb.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Kimmie
hvb, since we are admitting guilt, I too am guilty of reading some of the fluffs and feeling nauseas. it will be interesting to see if any men admit responsibliity. i love admitting being wrong and learning something. it's incredibly liberating.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
there are any number of ways to the dark side. no?

Of course; it is the easiest destination of all to reach.

-Ww

[alterego]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
it will be interesting to see if any men admit responsibliity.

I know I've done alot of things wrong in terms of how I post on UG. But it's all C9's fault.

æ

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Of course; it is the easiest destination of all to reach.

-Ww yes, but what's interesting is that all the bad behaviour has been incredibly illuminating (c.f. dark side).

[elliot16]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
i almost agree with this. but as i have said before, because i was atypical in my law school class and made it there against certain odds and on own (not the product of private schools and privilege despite the disinformation in that respect), right wingers and libertarians were always trying to get me to support this argument. but it's too simplistic to say people become thus and such because they are too lazy to do otherwise. it's almost too complicated to know why anybody does anything.

i guess the same argument can be made about johns, they are too weak and lazy to obtain more appropriate sexual partners?

I wouldn't argue that your last statement may be true for some if not for many. However, if a person comes on a PMB who says she's a prostitute and her work makes her feel like a rape victim, then my suggestion is that she change her line of work unless it pleases her to feel that way. And if she's married to the vicitim identity then perhaps she needs some help to get past that and she should seek help.

And I didn't say that people become such and such because they're too lazy. What I said was that once they realize that their life situation is cruel and intolorable (which I think is inherent in her statement) then it is their responsibility to make every effort to change that situation and not bathe in a Jacuzzi of self pity.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by alterego
I know I've done alot of things wrong in terms of how I post on UG. But it's all C9's fault.

æ
i don't believe in banning, but some of your jokes surely have been bannable offenses. what do you do to get special treatment from sb?

[jras]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
anger, even justified anger, is a step on the path to the dark side.
-Ww


For me anger is just another form of passion that I can only sometimes control (and the dark side is the magnet in commercial sex, anger or no anger).
At least I feel SOMETHING when I feel angry.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
clearly one does.

I think the jury is still out on whether Fucktoy is really a prostitute.

[jseah]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
yeah, i know. thanks jseah. happy easter.

hippity hoppity to you too.......

[alterego]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
what do you do to get special treatment from sb?

I make his jokes look good by comparison.

æ

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by elliot16
1. And I didn't say that people become such and such because they're too lazy. What I said was that once they realize that their life situation is cruel and intolorable (which I think is inherent in her statement) then it is their responsibility to make every effort to change that situation and not bathe in a Jacuzzi of self pity.
you know i don't think she was saying her work makes her feel like a rape victim. i think she was saying that the exercise of power in the john/prostitute relationship is somewhat analgous. but since i absolutely loathe when men here articulate what women are trying to say, i will let fucktoy articulate what she was trying to say. (justme and justlooking did that to me in attempt to smooth things when april went off, it made me ballistic.)

1. i think that goes back to my law school analogy. i have a tremendous amount of compassion for people who cannot change their circumstances. i mean just because some people are lucky enough to be able to do so; i don't know if people who feel they can't ought to be villified for not doing so. some people can jump like michael jordan right?

also, i think it was very brave of her to articulate that feeling esp. in this venue where every prostitute is supposed to love their work like cb did.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
I think the jury is still out on whether Fucktoy is really a prostitute.
i think i know who fucktoy is. but even if i don't. and even if she isn't. she certainly articulates a position that is probably held by people who feel they have no other options, so it's really immaterial.

[justlooking]

[Duplicative]

[justlooking]

It's not immaterial if "she" is a troll, not trying to contribute to disussion but just to cause disruption.

OTOH, if "she"'s a working prostitute, I agree she's brave.

[h. von bingen]

so you really think s/he's a troll? what she said was somewhat, but not terribly, incendiary.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by jras
For me anger is just another form of passion that I can only sometimes control (and the dark side is the magnet in commercial sex, anger or no anger).
At least I feel SOMETHING when I feel angry. i think wwanderer was engaged in some, not too deft, instruction and editorializing. hence his tag.

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by justlooking
I think the jury is still out on whether Fucktoy is really a prostitute. I think "she" is in the same sense that Dumbsalve and other characters are.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
i think it was very brave of her to articulate that feeling esp. in this venue where every prostitute is supposed to love their work

Wow! That brought me up short in that it is almost exactly the opposite of what I (strongly and clearly) perceive to be the majority, conventional wisdom view in this venue. Surely the UG standard view is that every (most, anyway) provider dislikes or hates the work and finds her clients distasteful and boring at best and loathful/repulsive in many cases. Providers who make any comment of that general flavor (such as Fucktoy's) are generally complimented as being honest and brave, while any provider who indicates that she likes the work or finds the company of her clients even mildly pleasant is usually either disregarded as insincere (assumed to only be trying to attract clients) or out right called a liar or dellusional etc. CB is only one of many possible examples.

The "in this venue where every prostitute is supposed to love their work" makes me wonder if we have been reading the same UG!

-Ww

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by pjorourke
I think "she" is in the same sense that Dumbsalve and other characters are.
yes, that's what i initially thought. but even so, so what? also re: outted, i meant your "love"* of cb, nothing more.

*jocular not scary quotes

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
The "in this venue where every prostitute is supposed to love their work" makes me wonder if we have been reading the same UG! Ditto!

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
hence his tag

My tag is a wry and humorous comment on a major issue in some rich and fascinating thread, which I have now forgotten entirely.

-Ww

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
1. yes, that's what i initially thought. but even so, so what? 2. also re: outted, i meant your "love"* of cb, nothing more.

*jocular not scary quotes 1) So a guy, mascerading as a woman can express a brave "female" point of view?

2. Huh???? What the fuck are you talking about?

[itlbn]

...will the 'twain EVER meet?...

[Fucktoy]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Wow! That brought me up short in that it is almost exactly the opposite of what I (strongly and clearly) perceive to be the majority, conventional wisdom view in this venue. Surely the UG standard view is that every (most, anyway) provider dislikes or hates the work and finds her clients distasteful and boring at best and loathful/repulsive in many cases. Providers who make any comment of that general flavor (such as Fucktoy's) are generally complimented as being honest and brave, while any provider who indicates that she likes the work or finds the company of her clients even mildly pleasant is usually either disregarded as insincere (assumed to only be trying to attract clients) or out right called a liar or dellusional etc. CB is only one of many possible examples.

The "in this venue where every prostitute is supposed to love their work" makes me wonder if we have been reading the same UG!

-Ww

Can't really be dumb to believe a girl actually enjoys fucking strange men day to day to keep a roof over her head!

[Kimmie]

Originally posted by justlooking
I think the jury is still out on whether Fucktoy is really a prostitute.

Do you want to know what pisses me off most about you?? Well I am telling you anyway....


You always assume any woman that post on ug with candor is not a hooker.

You did this shit with me when I first came here, and you still do it to this day..
CUT IT OUT!!!!!!

[NOYL]

Originally posted by Fucktoy
Can't really be dumb to believe a girl actually enjoys fucking strange men day to day to keep a roof over her head!

So get a legit job.

[Fucktoy]

Like gum on a shoe bottom layers mirror.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Kimmie
Do you want to know what pisses me off most about you?? Well I am telling you anyway....


You always assume any woman that post on ug with candor is not a hooker.

You did this shit with me when I first came here, and you still do it to this day..
CUT IT OUT!!!!!!

WHAT MAKES YOU THINK I THINK FUCKTOY IS A WOMAN?????????

[alterego]

Originally posted by Fucktoy
Like gum on a shoe bottom layers mirror.

Huh?????

æ

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Fucktoy
You can't really be so dumb to believe a girl actually enjoys fucking strange men day to day to keep a roof over her head!

I can be widely experienced enough to believe that not every prostitute works for the same reasons, in the same style, with the same attitudes and with the same resulting feelings. The situation you describe may well be, probably is imo, the general rule, but it turns out that providers are people, and where people are concerned, there are generally exceptions to the norm...quite a few of them in fact.

It is much the same with many other kinds of work in fact; most of those doing it may dislike the actual work and be motivated soley by the money they are paid, but there are exceptions.

-Ww

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Wow! That brought me up short in that it is almost exactly the opposite of what I (strongly and clearly) perceive to be the majority, conventional wisdom view in this venue. Surely the UG standard view is that every (most, anyway) provider dislikes or hates the work and finds her clients distasteful and boring at best and loathful/repulsive in many cases. Providers who make any comment of that general flavor (such as Fucktoy's) are generally complimented as being honest and brave, while any provider who indicates that she likes the work or finds the company of her clients even mildly pleasant is usually either disregarded as insincere (assumed to only be trying to attract clients) or out right called a liar or dellusional etc. CB is only one of many possible examples.

The "in this venue where every prostitute is supposed to love their work" makes me wonder if we have been reading the same UG!

-Ww
i think you are viewing this through the prism of your personal feelings and relationship with cb. there are certainly prostitutes on her who don't find their work utterly distasteful: vanessa and april come to mind. oth, there posts are tempered by the realization that the work is "healing good work" or whatever the fuck cb is deluding herself with.

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by justlooking
WHAT MAKES YOU THINK I THINK FUCKTOY IS A WOMAN????????? I'm usually pretty clueless about who is posting under different names. However, even I can see the similarity between fucktoy's and JC's style/comments.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by alterego
Huh?????

æ

I think that's the name of an outtake from Blonde on Blonde.

[itlbn]

People in business (and the law :o)) sell their souls all the time for power, money, advancement of position, etc.. Is that any better than selling your body for money? Actually seems a lot cleaner to me when you can wash it off at the end of the day.

[Fucktoy]

Originally posted by itlbn
People in business (and the law :o)) sell their souls all the time for power, money, advancement of position, etc.. Is that any better than selling your body for money? Actually seems a lot cleaner to me when you can wash it off at the end of the day.

Agree

[alterego]

Originally posted by justlooking
I think that's the name of an outtake from Blonde on Blonde.

O.K. Thanks... but I still don't get the point of the post.

æ

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
i think you are viewing this through the prism of your personal feelings and relationship with cb.

It is probably more productive to leave cb and all the surrounding controversy out of it if we are trying to probe UG's conventional wisdom on this topic. Go back in the archives a year or two, before any of the current drama hit, and read for a bit. See how the providers expressing any positive feelings about the work or their clients were received vs how those expressing any negative views were treated. For that matter, see what people had to say to any hobbyist expressing the belief that his company was at all welcome (other than as business) to a provider. In other words, what I am talking about is not CB or any specific provider or hobbyist but more like "the general negative attitude" mentioned by SB in the poll at the top of this thread.

-Ww

PS - Note that "the general negative attitude" is in second place in the poll and gaining!

[elliot16]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
you know i don't think she was saying her work makes her feel like a rape victim. i think she was saying that the exercise of power in the john/prostitute relationship is somewhat analgous. but since i absolutely loathe when men here articulate what women are trying to say, i will let fucktoy articulate what she was trying to say. (justme and justlooking did that to me in attempt to smooth things when april went off, it made me ballistic.)

1. i think that goes back to my law school analogy. i have a tremendous amount of compassion for people who cannot change their circumstances. i mean just because some people are lucky enough to be able to do so; i don't know if people who feel they can't ought to be villified for not doing so. some people can jump like michael jordan right?

also, i think it was very brave of her to articulate that feeling esp. in this venue where every prostitute is supposed to love their work like cb did.

And I think that expressing that as the analogy is still playing the victim card. I don't presume that many or even most of the women who are prostitutes love their work, but if I hated my job and felt demeaned by it I would still find it to be my responsibility to make my life better.

And I think that any person has a right to interpret what any other person is saying regardless of the sex of either person. Just as you presume to do that with the men you analyze on this board. A man may be just as right in interpreting a woman's meaning as another woman.