*the* "issue"

[guy catelli]

This isn't about Carl M. And it certainly isn't about you.
This is a serious matter, so no more plays for the limelight ok Narcy? The topic is a cyberpimping policy.

wrong. 'the topic' is whether your "contol" issues (your term) with women, in conjunction with 1itt's incapacity to rise above the level of a 13-year old in discussing women are or are not going dominate the character and quality of the postings by both clients and escorts on UG.

Just to be clear, my feeling is that any board such as this needs to have certain policies as to what is and isn't allowed or, in a softer sense, what is part of the local culture.

that's what i've been saying all along.

.......But for me its the general issue of cyberpimping...it happens all the time on boards we all know about, and it will start to happen here....

if you're talking about *** on his own board, and if "we all know about (it)" then in what sense are "good people (being) fooled"?

And that is exactly the point....

no. your 'point', as you stated (yet again) in a recent post, is that you don't feel you have *enough* control over these women, and, you added, this lack of sufficient control is an issue for other clients generally.

a few clients have from time to time stated their position that they think that the fact that they're paying means that the escort's position is analogous to that of any other temporary service worker -- no more; no less.

but i know of no clients, outside of yourself and Mr P, who have been riding this hobby horse of lack of sufficient 'control' on a nonstop basis.

[LIDAWN]

on your last comments i agree.. i am sure this kind of thing happens from time to time..
But what i enjoy most here is the general honesty among the men about the service they do or do not recieve and the way they consistently post... and keep up with topics...
I believe that some women do give discounts to people whom bring them solid clientel.. i have only been here in this bus for 2.5 months... not long enough to establish that kind of compensatory type obligations.. but i am sure it happens..
I feel very very strongly about the word pimp though.. it has no place on this board in general in mho.. esp when in reference to posting clients...

Although i could be and have been known to be wrong on lots of occassions..
I simply liked the way you worded your statement and was bored so i thought i would post.. grin wink
HUGZZZ DAWN
Giddiup...........

[Rufus Moses]

Guy is obviously itching for a fight. Its a cheap and easy way to become the center of attention. But I will not go down that road with him.

HOWEVER - I have simply never said I "don't feel (I) have enough control over these women" or that "this lack of sufficient control is an issue for other clients generally."

What I have said is that sex workers often have very significant trauma level control issues as the result of physical and sexual abuse. This is a widely accepted view by psychological experts in the field. Its is entirely predictable that these control issues will extend to the dynamics of any given "session." How could it be otherwise?

I view the fact that most prostitutes are the net result of abuse as a terrible terrible thing. I am, frankly, deeply conflicted over reaping any benefits from this abuse.

In general (because there are exceptions in any population) any so called "romance" here is just a facade of rationalization and denial which functions to hide the ugly truths of the commercial sex business.

[Geezy Muldoon]

[Edited by Judge Crater on 07-13-2001 at 06:24 PM]

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

I can't get pulled into conflicts in life without my permission.

On BBs, I can't get involved unless I post.

I don't think this ***esque type thread is useful for this board.

Take it private. Enjoy your verbal jousting for jousting's sake in emails.

[pswope]

Rufus
Great post!
However,having become more attuned in recent years to the" issue",I have discovered a class of working girl,whose carreer path isn't based upon the trauma,abuse,and corresponding lack of self esteem.
Rather,it's predicated upon the superior financial opportunity that being a working girl offers. And whether the necessity is borne of being a single mother(an extremely common trait)or lack of other meaningful opportunities,these ladies have an extremely pragmatic psychological mindset towards their job. And while it's a generalization,they seem to be better able to compartmentalize their liasons with their Johns and thereby avoid the detached behavior that many working girls engage in as a matter of psychic survivial.
What the "Pragmatists" have in common with their more vulnerable sisters is the rejection of this so-called romantic notion that there are bonafide intimate emotional connectons made in the context of commercial sex.
It's axiomatic that human beings are incabable of generating legitimate emotional intimacy in the context of serial commercial sex episodes. Sure friendships can and do occur and occasionally a working girl and john transcend the limits inherent in this type of relatonship.And yes,Johns can and do fantasize that a "real connection" is taking place.
But a John,who thinks a real connection is occuring is deluding themselves.

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by Rufus Moses:
Guy is obviously itching for a fight. Its a cheap and easy way to become the center of attention. But I will not go down that road with him.

for those just tuning in, i reached out to RM on JAG, and was repaid with a savage attack when i was down. subsequently, i made a sincere and good faith attempt to start over with him at aspd.net, and was repaid with contempt and disdain.

as a review of the postings will show, RM has been 'in-my-face' since i arrived here at UG. see: http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/newreply.php?action=newreply&postid=1279

he typically prefaces his comments about my posts by saying that he can't be bothered taking the minute or so that would be required to actually read what he says he is disagreeing with.

numerous other of his postings have been prefaced with entirely gratuitous indications of his disdain for me.

this alone is very revealing of his 'fairness' and 'objectivity' on other issues.

HOWEVER - I have simply never said I "don't feel (I) have enough control over these women" or that "this lack of sufficient control is an issue for other clients generally."

and i'm Eleanor Roosevelt.

What I have said is that sex workers often have very significant trauma level control issues as the result of physical and sexual abuse. This is a widely accepted view by psychological experts in the field. Its is entirely predictable that these control issues will extend to the dynamics of any given "session." How could it be otherwise?

I view the fact that most prostitutes are the net result of abuse as a terrible terrible thing. I am, frankly, deeply conflicted over reaping any benefits from this abuse.

then you would agree that a 'secret' online organization, that by the account of many, many escorts is the source of much emotional trauma, and to some the cause of actual physical abuse, is plainly and simply an indefensible evil.

In general (because there are exceptions in any population) any so called "romance" here is just a facade of rationalization and denial which functions to hide the ugly truths of the commercial sex business.

i'm glad you brought this up. no non-Pollyanna over the age of 40 is unaware that life is an interplay between the forces of supply and demand and natural selection on the one hand, and random chance on the other.

the question is: how do we respond to this disappointing state of affairs? what the pseudosophisticated young, and cynics old enough to know better, call a "facade" is what everyone else is only too aware is "civilization". yes, civilization is largely a charade. what's new?

those who 'don't get it' continue to point the blame elsewhere, though, in point of fact, *all* of us are up to our necks in complicity with the sordidness that underlies the human condition generally.

some of us, however, adopt the existentialist position that what can never be morally justified (ie, life itself) can at least be artistically justified.

if you don't like our version of performance art, please just scroll on, instead of attacking people's motives without corroborating evidence.

thank you.




[Edited by guy catelli on 01-31-2001 at 01:38 PM]

[Slinky Bender]

Did he ever wheel around the room while you guys were "doing it", or was he as self conscious about the chair in private as he was in public ? ( BTW I do object to the PC folks forcing an image on him that he was steadfastly against with that new statue; I think they have their own agenda, and while it may be noble, they have no right to posthumously disregard someone's wishes for their own ideals ).

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by slinkybender
Did he ever wheel around the room while you guys were "doing it", or was he as self conscious about the chair in private as he was in public ? ( BTW I do object to the PC folks forcing an image on him that he was steadfastly against with that new statue; I think they have their own agenda, and while it may be noble, they have no right to posthumously disregard someone's wishes for their own ideals ).

it took me awhile to realize that you *are* referring to what it seemed that you were referring to.

as to whether Eleanor ever allowed Buck to get funky with her, i am skeptical. Eleanor was as physically reticent as she was emotionally effusive (a not entirely untypical combination for women of her class who came of age during high Victorianism).

as for the new statue showing FDR in a wheelchair, i think his self-consciousness on the issue was a reflection of the attitudes that prevailed at that time. given contemporary attitudes, i think that he would be simply delighted with the new statue of him. jmo.


[Edited by guy catelli on 01-31-2001 at 02:01 PM]

[wsb]

Objection judge --

Re: "Courtesan level cyberproviders and independents just hide it better and make it seem less obvious."

I must disagree. I don't think the amount of $$$ that a provider charges or the fact that she was clever enough to master html (or to pay someone to do so) make her any more equipped to deal with her emotional hardships.

I also reject the broad-based assertion that all providers are dysfunctional (I won't even address the camp that suggests that providers provide b/c they love sex). I'm sure, as a group, they are much more likely to have problems, but I tend to agree with Pswope that their primary motivating factor and raison d'etre is $$$. So greed, for lack of a better word, combined with a certain amount of laziness, leads one down the same path as those who chose such a lifestyle due to their troubled past.

I also think there's a small percentage who are perfectly normal and simply made a business decision.

--WSB

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by wsb
......I also reject the broad-based assertion that all providers are dysfunctional (I won't even address the camp that suggests that providers provide b/c they love sex). I'm sure, as a group, they are much more likely to have problems, but I tend to agree with Pswope that their primary motivating factor and raison d'etre is $$$. So greed, for lack of a better word, combined with a certain amount of laziness, leads one down the same path as those who chose such a lifestyle due to their troubled past.

I also think there's a small percentage who are perfectly normal and simply made a business decision.
--WSB


most people who become lawyers do so for reasons of income and status. but, some do so to vindicate what they believe to be the ends of justice. some see law as tool by which the bourgeoisie oppress the poor with a minimum of cost in blood and treasure. they become lawyers not to make money or vindicate the rule of law, but to exploit its contradictions in order to use the system to bring the system down.

some psychotherapists are very mixed up people who are trying to straighten themselves out (for one psychotherapeutic guru's gently mocking account of this, see: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0517543052/o/qid=980976302/sr=2-1/107-8995032-6479736 ) some are acting out issues of their own. some are gifted with empathy and insight and want to help troubled people. some are driven by greed and lust for power to financially and sexually exploit the vulnerable.

some escorts are very mixed up people. some like sex and like men. some hate men and are hooked on drugs. some never had an orgasm until they became escorts; some have never had an orgasm since. some feel less degraded sucking off a lawyer than being his administrative assistant. some are lazy and sluttish. some are money-crazed and work night and day.

and so on.

[LIDAWN]

really like what they do a lot...
although ymmv if the client does not bath or smile or respond or perhaps lays like broccoli..
but then.. i am a messed up psycho dramatic nutcase of a n abused woman... hahahah (laugh Carl M)
lol Joke.
. i like working short hours that do not impact my feet.. i like having no boss well done nails and sexy lingerie on like a big secret and a schedule of my own design... I love the way a man can make you feel by a certain look or sound he make s . when you touch him just so.
I love to be the one that makes his day more relaxing or.. more erotic.. or just makes it different for a change..
i am a parasite and an empathic nut.. for these experiences
There have been only 2 clients whom i did not enjoy in EVERYway but i still enjoyed it... to some degree or i would throw the towel in..
i more so ever enjoy throwing the towel off. a long lazy bath or shower with someone who is glad i am there who want s to talk about his day his kids his life or his fantasies.. his frustration or to bounce an idea off an impartial bed as it were...
I guess i am not jaded yet being new.. ceratinly the $$$ is great but sometimes the whole experience is

PRICELESS !!!!!!!
note i did not say love but some degree of great like can be involved here... can't it..
HUGZZZ DAWN

Or i could be wrong what do you think as i often say.....

[Geezy Muldoon]

money


[Edited by Judge Crater on 07-25-2001 at 02:32 PM]

[Slinky Bender]

".. i am a messed up psycho dramatic nutcase of an abused woman"

CFTF = Come F--- The Fruitcake ? ;)

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by slinkybender
.. i am a messed up psycho dramatic nutcase of an abused woman

CFTF = Come F--- The Fruitcake ? ;)

SlinkyBender, i never you knew that about you (and, it was sexist of me to assume otherwise).

i'll pass on your kind offer; but, at least your screen name finally makes sense!

[wsb]

Re: "...but, some do so to vindicate what they believe to be the ends of justice. some see law as tool by which the bourgeoisie oppress the poor with a minimum of cost in blood and treasure. they become lawyers not to make money or vindicate the rule of law, but to exploit its contradictions in order to use the system to bring the system down."

No Guy, that why they initially go to law school. With few exceptions, by the time they do their first stint as a summer associate, it is pretty much all about the money.

Judge --

Good post. I still disagree with your statement:

"just that they are probably more familiar and comfortable with conventional social expectations and can play the part that much better. The creation of the illusion of normalcy is usually harder for less upscale provider to conjure because they have less exposure to such things."

Simply b/c there *really* isn't such a thing as an "upscale provider". Sure, we use that term to separate the average brothel worker, indie and streetwalker from the cyberscorts, travelling indies and girls who charge the big bucks. However, the reality is that many of these upscale ladies come from the same background as the non-upscale ladies. Indeed, many even work in decidedly downscale brothels before reinventiing themselves as cyberscorts.

So I don't see how the "upscale" ladies would be any better at hiding their purported pain than the average downscale brothel girl. I can, however, see your theory as having merit if you are comparing a crack ho and, say, Marie the Educated Escort, but i don't really think that was what you were suggesting.

Regards,

WSB

[John Blackthorne]

I know ladies such as you guys describe..ladies in pain.

But I am also quite aware of escorts who are remarkable well adjusted, positive people.

Too bad you don't.

jb

[Rufus Moses]

(note...all of this is in the context of the current USA. Different places may be different).

In general I don't think clients can know with any confidence what path their favorite girl took to end up in bed with them.

And yes there are many apparently well adjusted sex workers ... and most of them aren't ... they are just better actresses that's all. And of those who really are fine, just because they are now well adjusted doesn't mean they were never abused.

What has been left out of this analysis is drugs. I bet if you put all the non-abused prostitutes in a room, and then asked those with addictions (including alcohol) to leave...well a bigger crowd would leave than stay.

What percentage of prostitutes are not living out the results of abuse, are not addicted, and have alternatives but simply like sex or the money or both? My guess...less than 10%.

Here is a moral quiz for Dr. Laura...is it worse to patronize a prostitute who is living out the result of abuse than it is to patronize a prostitute trying to support her drug habit?

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

RM

I agree with your premise. I don't buy the concept that hookers can have a healthy balance in their lives when in fact what they participate in is a constant hit to the self-esteem.

Changing the noun of the profession from prostititute to hooker to escort to whore to provider....it all involves the same thing....selling what is the most intimate tangible part of our beings.

And I would think, even though I'm not a professional analyst of human nature, that men who bristle at this thought are running from a character defect within themselves.

Abused people gravitate towards one another. Sure sex feels good. It was designed that way. The ongoing search to find things to 'feel good' is a pretty good sign that there is something within that feels bad.



[Edited by One Eyed Trouser Trout on 02-01-2001 at 12:23 AM]

[frog]

cyclops, yes being a prostitute might lower one's self esteem, but perhaps having the attention of many men helps boost hers. I would even go as far to say that some pros are in the biz partly to prove to herself that she is desirable by men. Probably not many though huh?

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

Dear Ribbit

Good question. I'd reckon that for some providers, the business gives them some modicom of control over men. I have known non-providers who simply loved giving BJs because they seldom got turned down and could usually get the recipient to do just about whatever they requested for the pleasure of receiving said BJ.

The issue of control in these cases is important at some level for some women, particularly when somewhere along the line they didn't have control over an abuser.

There is probably some portion of the provider population that enjoy the money.

I'd think that a portion of the provider population really don' t like men at all.

I'd find it hard to believe if some provider woke up one morning and had the thought "Hey, I'm gonna become a provider because I think the idea of having sex with men who pay for sex is an admirable job".

What other admirable jobs cause you to screw everything from Pee Wee Herman on a drunk to Bill Clinton with a sex obsession?

What other admirable job causes you to a potential stalker or chain saw body remodeler.

Sure. Some women find themselves down on their luck and turn to prostitution to support families, and I'm sad that our society isn't capable of providing alternative opportunities.

Sure. Being found attractive by lots of men who are willing to spend money to get you into bed might be supportive of a weakened self-esteem.

But the question of what is the first cause that results in these choices is the real issue. Providers and johns have dark sides -- question is, where did it come from?

I know what happened to me, and it's based in abandonment issues, and when I get horizontal with a provider, having sex is the symptom of something else.

[frog]

monocle, I think there are a ton of people who uses, or perhaps mistakens, sex as a substitute for intimacy. This is quite an easy error to make since the sex act itself is -- or more accurately, can be -- quite intimate. Furthermore, physical sex is much easier than true intimacy. This, imo, applies to providers and johns, and non participants in the hobby.

As to the economic necessity to become a provider, I think, at least in the US, that this is rare. I mean, do every single good looking single mother hook? Absolutely not. The majority of them manage to find something else to do to survive. I have stated this before: there is not a line of work for unskilled and uneducated women that is anywhere nearly as financially rewarding as providing. Show me how else a high school drop out can easily make 30 grand a month. Again, let me repeat that I am not stating or even suggesting that any provider here or any provider that I know is either unskilled or uneducated. The initial decision to provide might have been one of economic need, but the decision to keep on providing is one of economic choice. Of course we have already discussed the possible psychic costs. The fact that anyone even becomes a provider in the face of psychic costs strongly suggests that the financial rewards must be high. If you are a smart, college graduate, you might face the choice of making 30k a year or 30k a month.

[Edited by frog on 02-01-2001 at 07:08 AM]

[guy catelli]

we have soooooo many experts here on the psychological profile of various escort types.

interestingly, there has been great reticence to discuss the profiles of the various client types.

of course, the really interesting types, psychologically speaking, are those people who operate/moderate asp boards -- what a topic for a thread! ;)

[LIDAWN]

Guy, i am loving the whole nutcase theory here very much..
i must say hat after meeting several other providers these are the reasons i have heard for the w ork..
i went to college but.. no body will hire me at a rate that can afford a sitter and rent and insurance and heat and food and med coverage and gass as well as pay for my 1, 2, 3, 4 childrens expenses...
or perhaps...
I simply can't make ends meet why not do something know i am good at that afford easier hours..

I also hear i am bored and lonely..

I also hear some are married and that the husbands pay no attention to them so they need a little psuedo sexual boost..

You know my reasons i have stated them sick or no ..
I personnally see my self as a little sexual therapy ..
People do pay for that don't they..
Dr. ruth watch out... i am joking about that ok no need to flame it..

and yes there are a few i know who do it cause they like nice things and are spoiled or they want to climb out of the welfare level and have no other means to do it..
SO it is a your tax dollars or your wallet issue there..
Personnally i would rather see a woman do this as a means of support as to go on food stamps and welfare
and certainly she could pay for whatever therapy she might need for her dysfunctional as it has been stated behavior.. on that expense program...

So let's see work/ vs welfare well you tell me ..
Kids see mom leave for work/ vs watch the soaps in laundrymap.. complaining.. worrying about next meal for some out there ,a few... it is a real issue.....

i think in some cases working is better than not..
No i do not post it on my door hey guess what i do.. but.. my family sees me supporting them and i get to spend most days fingerpainting and reading and being homey... not worn out and frazzeled... and desperate about the next phone bill or how to get them new tennis shoes

I am also starting my ira account and investing with advice.... so that this is not my only means in the future so i can move on when i need to... also starting a college fund for my family hoping they can become strong educationally independant self supportive people.. whom need only to look to them selves in the future not others to survive.
.
I do see the point and i do concur that for some women it is much more harmful psychologically to do it.. even welfare might be better in some extreme cases but the fact would remain that what ever they did they would still need appropriate assistance in some form to blend into society and survive on some normal level whether abuse, rape, child issues.. ect.. really anything

but does this issue also include male providers as well?
are dysfunctional and broken or just hate to use this word.. ( horny) gads what an awful word to write .. do guys get that way wink grin..


humble opinion DAWN

xxoo

[Carl M]

Very interesting synopsis. The male provider issue at the end of your statement caught my attention. Hey when you get your site up and running why don't you put me in there as the male provider. The way things are going Ill go broke soon by seeing you an average of 4x /month- LOL!!

[Slinky Bender]

"but does this issue also include male providers as well?"

The most interesting case ( psychologically ) is straight guys who are "gay for pay". But I don't think anyone here wants to hear much about that.

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

Dawn...I had mentioned that some turn to prostitution as a means of support. And I'm sure male providers have issues as well. Men can be abused physically, emotionally and sexually as well as women. Fear of committment and fear of abandonment can be deeply held problems for men and women alike. And whatever is the first cause effect, what people are exposed to in life is often cruel, sick and sad, particularly when it occurs to defenseless kids.

Guy. I have no problem talking about the psychological issues with clients. I've come to believe that when people use external things to feel good, there is an internal scar that hasn't been healed properly. Our society, however, doesn't like to openly discuss abused men....it's just not the manly thing to do. For many of us, our young and yet immature fathers were forced into violent situations of war and had to find rudimentary coping mechanisms to survive. And if those men didn't have decompression assistance upon their return, they lived lives where they were unable relate well to those around them.

Whether it's direct or indirect, verbal or physical, abused people abused others. Clients contribute to the provider's self abuse. I, for one, have yet to meet a provider who hasn't been abused in one way or another. Zero. And I would think that most clients have been too, if they only knew what things can constitute abuse.

[LIDAWN]

i honestly can say that yes i agree the percentage of abused husbands does not make the papers the way a wife does .. i find it shocking but as you said the average man does not discuss his personnal issues in public or private for that matter. i do like your sensible approach here and respect it.. yes defense less children often reap the disaster that has the death hold on the parent...
But what causes the parent to react to a helpless child in any way that is not appropriate is a horrible thing.. interesting you have to take a test to drive a car but that there are no rules or reg.s for parenthood anyone can be one.. very interesting.......
I wish i could discuss this more but it is a sensitive issue for most and i do not have experience in this field so i am lacking in the education with which to discuss it appropriatly so i relenquish the conversation to you on this matter.
I think 99.9 percent of the entire population has had some sort of abuse on one level or another. parental, spousal, child, racism ,religious, which in the big picture shows us that, people marry whom they marry as a reslt of these factors or the choose a job as a result or not choose one. they drink, they abuse illigal substances, the become sexually deviant or obscessed or perhaps they with draw... men marry women like mom or not, based on their early years and impressions and women do the same.. sometimes a cycle of abuse is more than three generations old. possibly more,
But who talks anymore about it.. it is all hush hush..
i work with a bunch of kids on my free time with adoption issues so i have a minor grasp of the abandonment issue but probably not to your extent.. i have a 24 hr open phone to most of these kids and boy do they use it when they are having a moment usually at 3 am and on some kind of binge, and no i would never encourage them to take my trail in this business.. only to learn to be self suff and find happiness where you can and when and build from there... as long as the foundation for the happiness is a real tangible thing not a lie or dream or misplaced idea by a stranger..
I admire your open nature and look forwad to reading your posts in the future.. i have gained respect for you from the style and demeener i which you posted today..
thank you for continueing the post..
HUGZ AS ALWAYS THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION

LI DAWN

[guy catelli]

Originally posted by LIDAWN
........ i have gained respect for you from the style and demeener i which you posted today.....

me too ;)

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

Guy

I'm still not gonna date ya, ok?

Dawn....too bad I'm moving south in a few days, or I'd offer to come share stories about Carl.

Moving south to expand the horizons of UG, cuz we all know there's nothing quite like a southern accented lady in the heat of passion.....

[Edited by One Eyed Trouser Trout on 02-01-2001 at 05:46 PM]

[HornDogBuddah]

This has turned out to be a much more interesting thread than what usually results when this topic is introduced. Cyberpimping is a tedious issue that has polarized us before and, in all likelihood, will continue to do so as long as we have some posters who are adamant about how benign it is and others who object with equal ardor.

However, we have morphed into another area: Why do providers get into the business? What are their hot buttons?

I think most guys (including those of you who may have some schooling and even professional training) have only a partial understanding of what psychological toll one must pay to be a provider. (I, personally, feel that the toll paid varies greatly among providers. Some are seriously traumatized by it, others compartmentalize it and keep it separate from their "real" lives, and still others may embrace and welcome it -- who knows?)

But the point that I'm reaching for is that Dawn's honest comments, while they may not represent the full spectrum of providers' profiles, since she has spoken to only a few others about this, show a side of the business that is much less pathological and more palatable for many of us. I, for one, have been wrestling with the moral and ethical issues raised by several of you in other threads -- are we contributing to, and thereby must share some responsibility for, the mean human condition of the abused sex worker? I find it a helpful to discover close at hand one or more providers whom I can now meet (in other words, they are no longer an abstract) where I can more easily lose myself in the moment and not be distracted by those specific ethical/moral issues. (Or am I deluding myself?)

[Rufus Moses]

If cyberpimping is benign, then cyberpimps shouldn't need to hide what they are doing. But they do. Because they aren't even pimps, they are shills. They are con men who want you to think they are helping you out, when in reality they are helping themselves out...getting favors in return from the girls they steer you towards.

Such lowlifes are bred in *any* underground economy. Expect to find them even on UtopiaGuide.

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

Originally posted by HornDogBuddah
Some are seriously traumatized by it, others compartmentalize it and keep it separate from their "real" lives, and still others may embrace and welcome it -- who knows?)

-- are we contributing to, and thereby must share some responsibility for, the mean human condition of the abused sex worker?

HDB

I've worked on a great deal of personal issues over the past 6.5 years....booze brought me to my knees, but it was only a symptom. I had some serious issues before the first drink and after the last drunk to be sure.

Trying to get well, I've had to face lots of issues that I had shoved into compartments prior to this work...shoving it there in the false hope of remaining functional. Well, that compartment ran over and it wasn't too much unlike what happens when a really heavy rain fills the drain sewers in the inner city....all kinds of stuff floated out. Cans, bottles, lost baseball gloves and even the body of Jimmy Hoffa of sorts. When the flood happens, you need to inspect what has come out...because some good stuff comes out to be examined as well...to select what is to be kept and what is to be discarded.

It's a painfully slow process to heal it correctly. Pulling it up close and feeling the feelings all over again in the attempts to set it free and move forward. Opened scars can reheal effectively if done with the help of trained professionals....DO NOT TRY THIS STUNT AT HOME.

There is no doubt that I contribute to the compartment of the provider and at some point, I --perhaps as a faceless example-- will come back up out of her storm drain. I was in a particularly historic pattern of rationlizing it a year or so ago by thinking....she wants to do this and I want to do this, so what's the harm.

That thinking was self satisfying but not loving to another human being. I am now finding that I'm not nearly as active as I once was -- I've only seen like 1 provider in the past 6 months, and maybe 3 in the past year compared to probably 1 every 2-3 weeks. I've even walked out of an appointment without sex since realizing once I got there that the provider was particularly fragile. I've left the donation, and have chatted with them as a human. On occasion, I've taken the provider out of the room and to a diner for coffee for a break. Conversely, and contrary to this, I have had relations with a provider when the connection of the past has been established only to find that the session was more caring and a bit more tender. And I've left feeling morel like a caring man with both a penis and ATM card :=)

I guess it depends where people are in processing their own personal flood waters. And I'm incapable of assessing another in this regard.

Some symptoms of a rapidly filling compartment may include: irrational anger, both at self and others; rapidly racing thought patterns; increased planning; increased consumption of mind altering substances; eratic spending patterns; frequent rationalization; weight gain or loss for no obvious reason; emotional lability.

I'm not a psychological professional. But I have listened along the way, and I've accepted the truths of my life.

[HornDogBuddah]

OETT: your post provides much to think about. Thank you.

While I see myself as being warm, open, and caring, I don't look to providers for relationships (except in the frame of a very micro interpersonal exchange) and I would admit that I may not be so empathetic and warm hearted to pay for services not rendered because the provider was having a personal crisis -- I don't know because it has not yet happened to me. More likely, I would leave without pressing the issue. Unless we had already established a connection of some sort, I don't know if I would buy her coffee and try to counsel her. You're clearly a better man than I in this regard.

[One Eyed Trouser Trout]

HDB

I don't counsel providers...that's not my job. When the girl appears fragile, I make a decision to not any more straws to the camel's back.