Privacy rights: a slippery slope...

[Cat_Ballou]

Privacy in Peril

February 14, 2004

In an attempt to bolster its defense of the
unconstitutional Partial Birth Abortion Act of 2003, the
Bush administration has gone beyond its campaign to destroy
women's reproductive rights and has attacked the privacy
rights of all Americans.

This assault is being conducted through subpoenas the
Justice Department has issued demanding that at least six
hospitals in New York City, Philadelphia, Illinois and
elsewhere turn over hundreds of patient records for certain
abortions. This egregious intrusion on patients' privacy is
being pursued in the name of defending lawsuits against the
abortion ban. Not only is the information not needed to do
that, but it is also a flagrant example of why Congress and
the attorney general have no business second-guessing
sensitive medical decisions made by individuals and their
doctors.

Judges in New York and Nebraska have barred the
administration from enforcing the abortion law in response
to suits brought by groups of doctors, who have argued,
correctly, that the ban should be struck down because of
imprecise wording and the lack of an exception to protect a
woman's health. A narrow Supreme Court majority struck down
a state ban in 2000 for omitting a health exception.

Attorney General John Ashcroft says the fishing expedition
his department has started is justified to evaluate whether
the procedures covered by the law are ever necessary to
preserve a woman's health. In a sound ruling last week, a
federal judge in Illinois rebuffed this flimsy argument.
Citing state and federal law, as well as Supreme Court
prec****t, the judge, Charles Kocoras, also rejected the
Ashcroft team's astonishing claim that no doctor-patient
privilege exists under federal law protecting patients from
public disclosure of their records.

Unfortunately, the federal judge in New York overseeing one
of the legal challenges to the new law does not grasp his
duty to protect patient privacy. That judge, Richard Conway
Casey of New York's Southern District, has threatened to
lift his injunction blocking enforcement of the abortion
ban if leading hospitals in New York City and elsewhere
fail to produce files on at least several dozen women's
abortions.

Underscoring the legally dubious nature of Judge Casey's
threat, the hospitals in question are not themselves
parties to the lawsuit. Nor, for that matter, are the women
whose personal privacy Mr. Ashcroft is so determined to
invade. Moreover, as Judge Kocoras aptly noted, redacting a
patient's name and identification number from her file
neither ends the harm to individuals of having intimate
details of their medical history publicly disclosed, nor
adequately protects the patients' identities.

We applaud those hospitals that are resisting Mr.
Ashcroft's privacy invasion, and encourage them to stand
firm until the legal proceedings run their course.
Meanwhile, Americans should see Mr. Ashcroft's intimidating
tactics for the dangerous threat to liberty and privacy
they really are.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/14/opinion/14SAT1.html?ex=1077787524&ei=1&en=dc44c89f8a568f21

[Cat_Ballou]

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou
Citing state and federal law, as well as Supreme Court
prec****t, the judge, Charles Kocoras, also rejected the
Ashcroft team's astonishing claim that no doctor-patient
privilege exists under federal law protecting patients from
public disclosure of their records. [italics mine] What the fuck???!!!

I suddenly feel a whole lot better about how carefully I've learned to word all my answers to "officials" of every stripe. The weird thing is, I just had a conversation with a new gynecologist about this exact subject -- the fact that the clinic could not, in the current climate, really guarantee the privacy of my records -- and we actually spoke in a sort of code, so that she learned what she needed to know in order to treat me effectively, but without learning anything problematic that she would otherwise be required to record...

[dumpy]

If there's any silver lining in this it's that Ashcroft and the religious right may just cost Bush the election. I know I'll be keeping my fingers crossed.

[redleg609]

As I understand it, from NPR:

1. Defenders of partial birth abortion say that it is medically necessary.

2. Those opposed say it is rarely necessary to protect the life of the mother.

3. The administration has asked/demanded records of partial birth abortions which have been scrubbed of any information that would identify and individual.

It seems to me that if you want to make an arguement that it is necessary to save the life of the mother, you should put up or shut up. Especially, since no data identifying an individual would be provided.

[Bebop]

Originally posted by redleg609
As I understand it, from NPR:

1. Defenders of partial birth abortion say that it is medically necessary.

2. Those opposed say it is rarely necessary to protect the life of the mother.

3. The administration has asked/demanded records of partial birth abortions which have been scrubbed of any information that would identify and individual.

It seems to me that if you want to make an arguement that it is necessary to save the life of the mother, you should put up or shut up. Especially, since no data identifying an individual would be provided.

Yeah it seems that way, but you are not looking as far down the road as Ashcroft and the Doctors.

Ashcroft wants those records so that he can prosecute doctors and hospitals, and patients, for certain kinds of abortions, whether they are legal or not. His strategy is to get the records, get his experts to say that they were not medically necessary, launch a prosecution and subpeona the doctors and the patients. Docotr patient confidentiality is not protected in cases of the commission of a crime.

The purpose is to intimidate the medical establishment and women from seeking abortion.

It doesn't matter how clean those records are. If the prick doesn't get them, he can't prosecute. So you don't give them up.

[biglarry1]

On a different note about privacy,I was reading the Washington section of Big Doggie and there is a large section about a prostitution establishment that was raided 4 years ago and the woman plea bargained down to a $100 fine but her records were confiscated and the press filed to see them under the freedom of information act and the city(frederick MD) had to release all info0approx 85,000 pages of computer files with names etc

[biglarry1]

The following is from 2/17 edition of the NY Times about the Black Book in Maryland. Do we have anything to worry about when providers say they destroy our information after the encounter?

By JAMES DAO

Published: February 19, 2004


REDERICK, Md., Feb. 18 — Love may be a fleeting thing, but ***** messages are forever. Or so the chagrined clientele of Madam Angelika Potter's Corporate Affair escort service are learning.

On Wednesday, the City of Frederick ended a long-running lawsuit by releasing evidence from a seven-month police investigation into Ms. Potter's once-thriving prostitution business, including photographs, financial ledgers, police surveillance tapes and 8,500 pages of documents, mainly ***** messages from the lovelorn and lusty.

The trove was set out for viewing in the elegant second-floor foyer of City Hall. Reporters sifted through boxes of documents while a television set played a police surveillance video of men entering and leaving Ms. Potter's place of business. Among the evidence was what everyone in Frederick, about 40 miles north of Washington, now knows as the "black book," Ms. Potter's meticulously maintained list of clients.

The list, with thousands of names, has been a tinderbox of controversy since Ms. Potter pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor charge of "operating a house of assignation" in November 2000, for which she paid a $100 fine.

Outraged at what they viewed a lenient penalty, some residents, including the president of the local N.A.A.C.P. chapter, accused the authorities of letting Ms. Potter off the hook to keep her client list secret. There could be only one reason, they argued. The list must contain the names of officials and other Frederick elite.

The police and prosecutors denied that, saying there was not enough evidence to convict Ms. Potter of more serious charges. The Frederick News-Post, along with a resident and The Associated Press, sued, demanding the release of the records. Late last month, a state appellate court ruled in their favor, and on Wednesday, the records went public.

It seems fair to say that at least a few men in this city of 52,000 are nervous about what lies inside. Already, City Hall has been inundated with phone calls about the list, mainly from wives asking whether their husbands are on it, officials said. More than 100 copies of "the book" have been sold at $20 apiece to the curious and vindictive alike. The News-Post has assigned six people, including the publisher, to search the files for familiar names.

The acting publisher, Robin L. Quillon, said the paper did not intend to print the entire list of men who paid $250 an hour at Ms. Potter's. But Mr. Quillon said his paper was determined to find out whether there had indeed been a cover-up of official misconduct, or at least hanky-panky.

"How can a major investigation fizzle when it reaches the county courthouse?" Mr. Quillon asked in an interview. "We're not here to titillate. But we believe prominent public officials, by virtue of their duties, can be judged by a different standard."

Ms. Potter's list has already helped end one career, that of Blaine Young, whose name was on a partial list released in 2001. Mr. Young, an alderman at the time and the son of a former mayor, said he had hired the women to dance at parties, not for sex. He decided not to run for re-election after The News-Post published reports on his liaisons.

The controversy may also have contributed to the defeat in 2001 of Mayor James S. Grimes, who fought against releasing the records and was an ally of Mr. Young. Jennifer P. Dougherty, a restaurant owner, challenged Mr. Grimes on an open-government platform, promising to release the black book. She won handily.

But the release was not so easy. The city's insurance company told Ms. Dougherty that she had to fight an order from a lower court to release the files, lest the city be liable to suits by angry johns. The mayor appealed, and the city lost on Jan. 28 in the Court of Special Appeals.

Since then, the city's four lawyers have been reading every ***** message and document, editing out Social Security numbers and financial information about the clients. Copying the documents has cost the city $10,000, officials said.

The process has also put the city in the odd position of being an official purveyor of pornography, because it has to release a smutty homemade video seized by the police. The city offers "private screenings" of the video, which it also sells for $20.

"This isn't exactly what I expected to be doing when I went to law school," Heather Price Smith, the city's chief legal services officer, said.

The thousands of messages, from the kinky to the quotidian, show the inner working of the prostitution ring and pornographic Web site that Ms. Potter ran from home in Walkersville and an apartment here before her arrest in July 1999. (The Web site remains in operation.)

There are inquiries from a Baltimore man who wanted to dress like a woman while being seduced by a woman and from a Maryland man who wanted to film a naked woman dialing the phone for 20 minutes.

Pat from Seattle wondered whether a woman could meet him at Baltimore/Washington International Airport. Sam wanted a night session involving "three physical encounters."

"My needs are pretty strong," he wrote.

Alan requested a special birthday encounter with Ms. Potter herself.

Women sent photos asking to join the escort service. So did men. One, "Bambam," who sent messages from a House of Representatives Internet address, asked to be listed as an exotic dancer on the Web site.

[redleg609]

Originally posted by Bebop
Yeah it seems that way, but you are not looking as far down the road as Ashcroft and the Doctors.

Ashcroft wants those records so that he can prosecute doctors and hospitals, and patients, for certain kinds of abortions, whether they are legal or not. SNIP....
.

(1) Any acts occurring before a law goes into effect proscribing them cannot be prosecuted.

(2) If only the medical data is included not hospital name, doctor name, patient name, etc, how is it that any one or any institution can be identified?

Get a grip. Most government is basically incompetent.

Oh, BTW, I think the word you are looking for regarding actions taken against person perform legal acts is persecute.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by redleg609
Get a grip. Most government is basically incompetent.
i always say this to worked up radicals. i mean REALLY. that being said, that doesn't mean it doesn't bear being torn down. i'm going to cuba in a couple of months, know anybody that's been? got any advice?

[Cat_Ballou]

Doctors, Hospitals Challenge U.S. Subpoenas

Justice Department Seeks Confidential Medical Records on Banned Late-Term Abortion Procedure

By Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, February 12, 2004; Page A04


A group of physicians and hospitals is fighting Justice Department subpoenas for confidential medical records of patients who have undergone a type of late-term abortion, part of an escalating legal battle over a new federal ban on the procedure, court records and officials said.

The dispute resulted in contradictory orders last week from federal judges in Chicago and New York over whether the records may be released. The outcome of the dispute could determine whether federal officials will soon be able to widely enforce the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act, which was signed into law on Nov. 5 but has been restricted by several temporary restraining orders issued in federal courts.

In a lawsuit filed by the National Abortion Federation and seven physicians against Attorney General John D. Ashcroft, Justice Department attorneys have demanded patient records from hospitals used by the doctors involved, records show. Government lawyers contend that such requests are common in many areas of civil law, and that patients' names and other identifying information can be redacted from the files before they are turned over.

But a federal judge in Illinois last week blocked the government from enforcing a subpoena against Northwestern Memorial Hospital in Chicago, ruling that the demand violated state and federal privacy laws. hospitals in Michigan, New York and Pennsylvania have also refused to comply because of patient privacy concerns, according to records and officials.

The standoff so angered a New York judge that he threatened last week to lift an injunction barring enforcement of the abortion ban against the plaintiffs in the case, who represent half of the nation's abortion providers.

U.S. District Judge Richard Conway Casey of the Southern District of New York told attorneys that the physicians had opened themselves to such subpoenas by filing the lawsuit, and that the records request would not threaten patient privacy because personal information would be blocked out.

"I will not -- hear me out loud and clear -- I will not let . . . the doctors hide behind the shield of the hospital," Casey said on Feb. 5, according to a transcript. "Is that clear? I am fed up with stalls and delays. . . . The information relevant to this case will be produced. Otherwise, I will entertain whatever actions the government wishes to seek."

On the same day, however, U.S. Chief District Judge Charles P. Kocoras of the Northern District of Illinois quashed the government's subpoena of records at Northwestern Memorial, calling the request "a significant intrusion" of patients' privacy that would provide "little, if any, probative value" to the government's case.

Kocoras ruled that strict Illinois privacy restrictions trump disclosures allowed by federal law, and that the subpoena would "require Northwestern to disclose medical history information" that could be used to identify patients.

"American history discloses that the abortion decision is one of the most controversial decisions in modern life," Kocoras wrote. "An emotionally charged decision will be rendered more so if the confidential medical records are released to the public, however redacted, for use in public litigation in which the patient is not even a party."

The law at the heart of the court fight bans a controversial abortion procedure, generally performed in the second or third trimester, in which the fetus is partially delivered. Proponents say the procedure is necessary in some cases to preserve the life or health of the woman, but opponents, who call it "partial birth" abortion, describe it as barbaric .

The procedure was relatively rare, with 2,000 to 2,200 performed annually before the ban, according to various estimates. That number represents about 0.17 percent of total abortions annually.

Kocoras was appointed to the bench in 1980 by President Jimmy Carter. Casey, the judge in New York, was appointed in 1997 by President Bill Clinton. In issuing his injunction in November, Casey predicted that the abortion federation and the other plaintiffs would win their case.

Justice Department spokeswoman Monica Goodling said the government was reviewing the Kocoras ruling, but declined to comment further. Sheila M. Gowen, an assistant U.S. attorney, told Casey at the Feb. 5 hearing that " the government is not interested certainly in the private names and addresses and Social Security numbers of these patients. That is not the purpose here."

Representatives for the plaintiffs, including the abortion federation and the American Civil Liberties Union, also declined to discuss the case. "We are unable to comment because of ongoing litigation," federation spokeswoman Jennifer Helburn said.

(cont'd)

[Cat_Ballou]

(cont'd)

Daniel J. Solove, an information privacy expert at Seton Hall Law School, said the subpoena fight reflects the uncertain legal terrain surrounding medical privacy issues, especially because a new federal law -- the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) -- outlines boundaries that frequently conflict with state laws.

"Medical information is typically understood as some of the most private things maintained about people," Solove said. "But HIPAA basically allows the government to obtain medical records with a subpoena or court order in quite a number of circumstances."

In addition to Northwestern Memorial, court records identify at least four other hospitals that have refused to comply with the subpoenas because of privacy objections or, in some cases, because officials said they do not believe they have documents covered by the demands. They are New York-Presbyterian and St. Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital Center, both in New York; Hahnemann University Hospital in Philadelphia; and the University of Michigan Hospitals and Health Centers in Ann Arbor, Mich.

Kallie Michels, director of public relations for the Ann Arbor facility, said the hospital "has never seen this happen before, to have patient records subpoenaed in this manner. . . . We have refused to comply because it violates both state and federal privacy laws."

But Michigan lawyers recently indicated they might turn over the records with some limitations, according to documents.

[Casper]

I personally believe that it's up to the individual couple (female and male) to determinie if abortion would be appropriate in their situation. However if people want to skirt around the ban claiming that partial birth abortions are medically necessary because it's for the health of the female, then prove the case.
Provide the data while blocking out the personal information of the individual people involved.

Prove the facts back up the claim and all will be well. If they don't, then of course the ban should remain. Can't change a law for the whole nation with just the words of special interest folks.
Doctors have a lifestyle to maintain so they should be considered biased. It's all about the facts. Either it supports the Doctors/Abortion rights people's position or debunks it.

[aum_zen_buddha]

Is this a discussion about the privacy rights of patients or partial birth abortion?

Please don't cloud one issue with the other. Politicians, religious orders and exploiters alike use clouding techniques to confuse the masses and thus maintain/increase their power and wealth.

That said, I think that Ashcroft is legally correct in saying that patient's right to privacy is not federally protected. I could be wrong.

The question is if it isn't protected, should it be? I believe in an open society. Therefore, patient privacy should not be protected. However, anti-discrimination laws need to be stronger, broader and more punitive.

[Bebop]

Originally posted by redleg609
(2) If only the medical data is included not hospital name, doctor name, patient name, etc, how is it that any one or any institution can be identified?
[/B]

Justice looks at the records, and tells a court with a antiabortionist judge (Like Pickering) that the records indicate that the abortion was not medically necessary, and the court approves a subpeona for the entire record.

Like I said, YOU are not looking to far down the road.

[Cat_Ballou]

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040221172609990007

I remember when Frederick was a sleepy little two-street farm town...

Other things to consider about whether or not there is a constitutionally protected right to privacy with regard to medical records: the overwhelming majority of people believe that such protections exist, and approach their discussions with medical staff from that stance, so if it's not the case, it needs to be made explicitly clear...

Anyone and everyone in any form of psychological therapy needs to consider that anything they discuss with their therapist that goes into their record-- marital problems, infidelity, sexual deviancy, sexual addiction, whoring, pimping, depression, acute anxiety, or criminal activity of any stripe -- might wind up being looked at by someone you wouldn't have expected, and judged, and used against you...

The DOJ is issuing an awful lot of subpoenas lately (many of which they are being forced to back-peddle on, a telling sign): as frogs in the pot, it behooves us all to note that the water is getting a bit warmer...

[Cat_Ballou]

Limbaugh Says Prosecutors Seek Doc Records

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. (Feb. 21) - Rush Limbaugh says prosecutors have subpoenaed records from his doctors as part of the investigation into the conservative radio commentator's prescription drug use.

Prosecutors are trying to determine whether Limbaugh visited several doctors to illegally receive duplicate prescriptions of controlled narcotics. Limbaugh sought treatment for his admitted addiction to painkillers in October and has not been charged with a crime.

On his radio show Friday, Limbaugh said Palm Beach County prosecutors sent subpoenas to the offices of four of his doctors, "demanding a list of every employee at every doctor's office I visited, from March to September of 2003," according to a transcript of the program on his Web site.

"They're already figuring they're going to win the opportunity to see my medical records, and once they see them, they want a list of names at these doctors' offices that they can re-subpoena and bring in for interviews," Limbaugh said.

Also Friday, the state's 4th District Court of Appeal in West Palm Beach gave prosecutors 15 days to respond to Limbaugh's appeal of a Palm Beach County judge's order allowing them to review his medical records, which remain sealed.

Limbaugh's attorney, Roy Black, contends that prosecutors violated Limbaugh's privacy rights when they seized the medical records late last year by using search warrants, rather than first notifying Limbaugh and giving him a chance to challenge the seizure.

A spokesman for Palm Beach County State Attorney Barry Krischer declined to comment Friday. He did not return phone calls Saturday.

Krischer has repeatedly insisted that investigators have followed the law and "scrupulously protected" Limbaugh's rights.

Krischer's office began investigating more than a year ago after Limbaugh's former maid told them she sold Limbaugh "large quantities of hydrocodone, Oxycontin and other pharmaceutical drugs" for years. She gave investigators ******s and answering machine recordings to support her claims.

On the Net:

Limbaugh: [url]http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/


02/21/04 14:06 EST

[Cat_Ballou]

(FWIIW -- I worked as an administrator in a prominent doctor's office for a number of years, well before 9/11 and other factors of the current political climate entered into the "privacy question"; even then, because of the nature of his specialty, our office saw more than a few subpoenas that raised questions about how even very low-level employees could be dragged into legal proceedings, and in such a way as to make them feel, at best, unnerved and uncertain about who was on[i] their side...)

[curious]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
snip i'm going to cuba in a couple of months, know anybody that's been? got any advice? snip

Haven't been, but read somewhere recently that they'll try to stamp your passport there. Don't let 'em.

[h. von bingen]

thanks, but i'm going on a humanitarian mission, so it's legit (sort of). imo "5-star hotels" whatever that means in cuba, isn't a "humanitarian" mission.

are there any "5-star hotels" in cuba?

just checked. THERE ARE! hmm.

[Cat_Ballou]

hvb, you've already made a huge, big fucking deal about your trip to Cuba elsewhere: everybody who cares at all about it, already knows. This thread is about constitutional privacy issues, not your vacation plans. Why not just start a thread called "hvb is going to Cuba?" instead of hijacking threads with completely different subjects? Many of us UGers don't find you and your life at all fascinating, and we'd like to talk about other things, without having to keep swotting at you like an ill-behaved child ...

"hvb goes on a humanitarian mission..."

LOL!!!

Heh ...

[Cat_Ballou]

And just for the record:

Courtesans love Cuba......

[jp1064]

and...

I love Cuban courtesans!

[rajah]

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou
... hijacking threads with completely different subjects? ...
Hey, it's in the nature of the beast. You might as well expect a frog not to croak.

at subitae horrifico lapsu de montibus adsunt
Harpyiae et magnis quatiunt clangoribus alas,
diripiuntque dapes contactuque omnia foedant
immundo; tum vox taetrum dira inter odorem.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou

"hvb goes on a humanitarian mission..."
so glad you have pulled your face out of your . . . and decided not to "ignore." i have done these things:

fed children and built schools in guatamala
been to east timor on a fact finding mission
been to bosnia to report for the bbc
and written numerous articles on uganda
and other humanitarian contributions and endeavors too numerous to mention.

u should really read about uganda, a most horrific situation . . . (in fact i am certain redleg and i have some people in common).

of couse, that's aside from organizing and participating in marches and soup kitchens and providing pro bono legal advice that are part of every day life. what have you done lately except fucking the likes of that mewling solipsist rajah?

peace, love and understanding,
hvb

nice clipping work by the way.

[h. von bingen]

p.s. i find it personally repugnant that someone who does not pay taxes has the temerity to criticize the government. since you are so good with legal issues my dear -- you have NO STANDING to do so.

[BigMadM]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by h. von bingen
[B]so glad you have pulled your face out of your . . . and decided not to "ignore." i have done these things:

fed children and built schools in guatamala
been to east timor on a fact finding mission
been to bosnia to report for the bbc
and written numerous articles on uganda
and other humanitarian contributions and endeavors too numerous to mention.


One of my favorite hos was half guatamalan(guatamalian?)
I think the other half I also liked was equadorian.
I think Jaimie sent her to me a couple or few years back.
Real dynamite looking girl.


Is east timor south of east Elmhurst? Does the 7 train go there?

And Ive been to several places to report on the bbbjs.(bbc,is that bareback something to do with something of a sexual oral nature?)
See, HVB, we have something in common.

[h. von bingen]

bmm you MUST be bored. what do those fuck you lighters do? can i have some? we have, i think, lots in common.

[BigMadM]

I gotta get out of this place. Ill be back later, youre right, Im bored and I cant even find a review to read here.
Whats happenning? Noone in NY going to see whores anymore?
Thankgod JimyDR is still roaming the streets.

[h. von bingen]

i think you should fuck cat ballou. i'd spot you. okay, so she looks more like those 45 year olds you meet in the 3 am of your soul, but so what? you're a gamer.

[h. von bingen]

heh heh.

[justbill_redux]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
so glad you have pulled your face out of your . . . and decided not to "ignore." i have done these things:

fed children and built schools in guatamala
been to east timor on a fact finding mission
been to bosnia to report for the bbc
and written numerous articles on uganda
and other humanitarian contributions and endeavors too numerous to mention.

u should really read about uganda, a most horrific situation . . . (in fact i am certain redleg and i have some people in common).

of couse, that's aside from organizing and participating in marches and soup kitchens and providing pro bono legal advice that are part of every day life. what have you done lately except fucking the likes of that mewling solipsist rajah?

peace, love and understanding,
hvb

nice clipping work by the way.


hvb exposed

http://secretary.state*****/www/albright/albright.html

***** = *g*o*v

[Cat_Ballou]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
i have done these things:

fed children and built schools in guatamala
been to east timor on a fact finding mission
been to bosnia to report for the bbc
and written numerous articles on uganda
and other humanitarian contributions and endeavors too numerous to mention.

of couse, that's aside from organizing and participating in marches and soup kitchens and providing pro bono legal advice that are part of every day life. ROFLMAO! That'll be the day...

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justbill_redux
hvb exposed

http://secretary.state*****/www/albright/albright.html

***** = *g*o*v
no but my good friend flummoxed her pretty good.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou
ROFLMAO! That'll be the day...
i never lie, ask anyone.

you can certainly wear prada and serve the poor. no sin in that. (although of course i will be donating all my prada to the poor as it is so outre.)

true story:

i have gotten some of the coolest designer-wear from homeless guys who found it on the street and knew i had a penchant for it. what goes around comes around. one guy found me the greatest pucci silk sundress on park and like 60.

he came onto the soupline, fumbled around his bag and said: you wouldn't want this right? i was like yes, please. do you want meat or vegetarian soup?

[h. von bingen]

here is a book which i highly recommend:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312243359/qid=1077490776//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i14_xgl14/104-7572148-5456744?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

see what bothers me most about you cat, is that you are so dumb and narrowminded -- like too many of the lefties i meet. you couldn't think outside of the box if your life depended on it. that = obviously, poor artistic vision.

how on EARTH would i have been able to arrange a humitarian trip to cuba if i wasn't connected? moreover, left wing supporters often have lots of dough, and i like dough almost as much as i like helping the poor.

[h. von bingen]

p.s. i noticed you conveniently "ignored" my lack of standing comment. substantive cat got your tongue? or is it selective ignoring?

either way, i find dumb people UNSAVORY.

[NOYL]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
i'll out myself if i say more

OMG, you're Philip Gourevitch.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by NOYL
OMG, you're Philip Gourevitch.
outted myself goddamit!

[h. von bingen]

http://freshair.npr.org/include/images/2003/philipgourevitch.jpg

but G-D knows i am!

[h. von bingen]

[deleted: second thought. (too over the top, however accurate.)]

special note to noyl: this post was in no way responsive to you.

[h. von bingen]

shame shame shame

it embarasses me to talk about my good works in general and especially here. (i'm kind of sorry i did.)

[BigMadM]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
i think you should fuck cat ballou. i'd spot you. okay, so she looks more like those 45 year olds you meet in the 3 am of your soul, but so what? you're a gamer.

this uncalled for hostility or misplace hostility towards me bothers me a bit, but I still like you......hard to type tonight, meds kickin in.

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by BigMadM
hard to type tonight, meds kickin in.

It's so unfair. Any pussy AND any meds he wants.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by BigMadM
this uncalled for hostility or misplace hostility towards me bothers me a bit, but I still like you......hard to type tonight, meds kickin in. bmm i don't have ANY hostility towards you. sheesh.

[h. von bingen]

having to explain myself to an intellectual retard like cb,

now naomi wolf has decided that harold bloom inappropriately touched her. cheez, ole naomi's career must really have tanked in order for her to have stooped so low.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
an intellectual retard like cb,

Too late, and this is the Coliseum anyway, and who cares what I think, but just wanted to repeat that there's no excuse for shit like that, IMO.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
1. Too late, and 2. this is the Coliseum anyway, and 3. who cares what I think, but 4. just wanted to repeat that there's no excuse for shit like that, IMO.
1. yes
2. yes
3. i do
4. this is a perfectly well-founded response. imo.

i shouldn't have to defend myself against shit like this.

[Casper]

I thought personal attacks were against UG rules. Or do they only apply to some of us.

[justlooking]

Guess what: you DON'T have to defend yourself.

[h. von bingen]

you are awfully hard on me. you remind me of my parents.

[h. von bingen]

i don't understand why u countenance all kinds of crap from all kinds of quarters and yet you feel compelled to correct me? what's with that? did you read the thread? did you see how it evolved? how could you possibly take the position you're taking?

[h. von bingen]

and since you always feel compelled to say:

there's no excuse for shit like that.

i feel compelled to say:

i have never heard you say i was substantively wrong.

(see, it works both ways.)

[justlooking]

Maybe one of your last few posts answers another one.

[h. von bingen]

yeah yeah yeah i know. thanks.

[Ny Vanessa]

hvb..take a minute..relax.. breath..breath..

I have never seen you this way before..

Be nice or jl wont like you anymore, and you will be banished to the Chateau D'If

[h. von bingen]

that last post was nice. chateau d'if = funny.

[h. von bingen]

bouillabaisse at the c de i? how about monte christo sandies?

[h. von bingen]

la regle des trois minutes

http://www.charlesolson.com/photos/ChateauDIf.jpg

[lawyer101]

Not for nothing, but I could sit here and watch HVB bust on Cat all day long...:)

[justme]

(If HvB wasn't the first person to notice that every channel on UG was airing the CB fluffathon than CB certainly isn't the first person to notice that it's been replaced by HvB's State of the Self address.

I really doubt either show is more inetersting than the other.)

[h. von bingen]

duly noted.

i thought of something really funny during court today. was this thread hijacked by going to cuba?

i'll try to keep to less fascinating subjects (to me at least) than myself.

[h. von bingen]

btw, u are very cute when yr Catholic.

[h. von bingen]

what's more state of the self than declaring you're in love? (and then discussing your g/f's wine lessons.) is it quantity?

(this is a genuine, non incendiary question.)

[justme]

Cuba - I agree, funny.

I didn't volunteer that I was in love*. You asked for clarifcation of my rather convoluted statement in that thread (which I later clarified more approriately), when I saw what I had written I realized that I was 'under the influence' when I wrote it. My answer to you was the first thing that popped into my head.

As much as I've talked about her (and hopefully it's been seldom*), I think it's always been within the context of the conversation.

To a large degree, if you're going to contribute meaningfully to a discussion, you have to do it from your own perspective. And so there has to be people talking about personal stuff on a PMB in order for the conversation to not degenerate into meaningless abstractions. The complaint isn't that you talk about you. The complain is that you talk about you out of the context of the conversation.

Even that would be OK (anyone on here with more than 500 posts has hijaked a thread or two). The problem is that you seem to do it frequently.

* - In all honesty, discussing personal, non-commercial romantic relationships on a PMB makes me queazy. It made me queazy enough to discuss the Kimmie situation in any detail. Perhaps, ironically, I tend to be fairly closed lipped about my personal life.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justme
The complaint is that you talk about you out of the context of the conversation. yes. thank you.

i like that you are direct in your criticism. jl's much vaunted "tact" makes his comments sometimes a little too cryptic for actual educational purposes. that being said jl, i appreciate any attempts.

please don't allow this question to have a chilling effect on your discussing your life. see, you are most closely aligned with my morality vis-a-vis this issue. therefore, it is riveting for me.

[EVdenizen]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
so glad you have pulled your face out of your . . . and decided not to "ignore." i have done these things:

fed children ....................................peace, love and understanding,
hvb


There I was, thinking you were unflappable. Now it turns out you're extremely flappable.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by EVdenizen
Now it turns out you're extremely flappable.
my sentiments exactly. see my post where i am obviously humiliated to be outted as a goddamn dogooder. i was got good.

[jras]

relax - no one believed that shit anyway

[h. von bingen]

well that's a relief.

[Cat_Ballou]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
p.s. i find it personally repugnant that someone who does not pay taxes has the temerity to criticize the government. since you are so good with legal issues my dear -- you have NO STANDING to do so. If I have no standing to do so, then presumably neither does any other provider on this board, neh?

No woman who is also a provider here, who does not pay taxes on that income, is entitled to criticize the government?

That right is purchased with tax dollars?

The taxes you do or don't pay define your rights?

I guess none of us have the right to vote then, either?

Shut up all the soccer moms, then? Or do their husband's income taxes purchase their voting rights and political opinions?

What about people on welfare?

As far as the subject of the thread is concerned (that part you still can't wrap your narcissistic attention span around), it's impossible to know whether or not the people whose records may be being opened up for dissection by the DOJ meet your criteria, but I would imagine that at least a few of them do pay taxes, and even if they don't, I still think they have a right to their privacy...

But, I must say that this kind of cold blooded capitalist dollar-for-vote, amoral, let-them-eat-brioche is the real h. von bingen, one I can imagine easily. You're exactly that kind of person. Shut up everybody without a bank account that can impress hvb? Sounds dead-on for describing who you really are...

As for all that "I'm a humanitarian and I'm so embarrasssed to be talking about it here" stuff?

Get real, will you? I don't believe it now, and I never will. No one can despise other human beings with the joy that you do and pretend to any kind of humanitarian impulse. If you ever did the things you mentioned on your list, you did it for the junket, the CV credit, the free vacation and the claim to charity, and nothing else...

I'm still laughing my ass off at you -- you work the "I'm a total cunt with ice water in my veins" persona well, but you're just not good enough to pull off a human dimension; sorry, but you're way too inadequate to play that role...

But, hvb, you vicious, vindictive old bitch, here's the beauty part for you: you win.

You've made this board so nasty and uncomfortable for many people to participate in (hardly just me), and you have decided that it's all okay if it's for your own amusement. You resent everyone who finds you less than fascinating (an ever-growing population), you monopolize conversations, and rather than ignore threads that don't interest you, you make a point of chiming in to let everyone know why you think it's a stupid thread. (And then you have the nerve to go off your medication and treat us all to the outrageous stupidity of "Do you believe in", as big a waste of a bandwidth as ever graced this board, when it's obvious to Helen Keller that you'll never know what love is, and no matter how long you live, all you'll ever ultimately do is torture others; one has to hope that hombre deserves you...)

You're a thuggish old cunt, and I'm glad I'm nothing like you, in any way, shape or form. You've succeeded in making the place way too miserable for me to stick around, but don't kid yourself that you've convinced anyone with all your pronouncements about me. You wish so badly that I really were all the things you call me, but wishing doesn't make it so, and all the best people around here already know that, even when you threaten to demote them for it ...

But, like I said, you "win"...

And for you, that's all that matters, right? You got your vanity board, just the way you like it, hallucinations and all...

[lawyer101]

Cat,
GET A FUCKING LIFE!

Are threatening to stop posting on this board? Is that what you mean when you say that HVB won? If that is the case, then I leave you with these words "don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out".

[h. von bingen]

people on welfare and soccer moms are not tax scofflaws. i have never in my life done a thing for cv credit or a free vacation. in fact i never even use the term cv.

i'm such a poopy head the only thing i do believe in is love, and i have argued many times you can find love in the most unlikely places -- like on a whoreboard. i may not be good at love, but i have been lucky enough to be the recipient of alot of it. as for hombre, you know not whereof you speak there dear girl.

as for the groundswell of disapproval, if you mean your customers or other people you backchannel, there's not much i can do about that sort of underground -- oth, i think it worked well for, say, joseph mccarthy. moreover, i will make the same argument i have made to pj, psychosis and others: i have no idea who "everybody" is, and i certainly don't know what they are thinking.

special note to lawyer 101: she's right about one thing: i am old.

that being said, i have taken much to heart the discussions of justme, jl et al. and despite the limitations of gender and acculturation, continue in my attempts to disagree with the post not the poster.

[h. von bingen]

as far as i can tell: it's either a bakery or a navajo jewelry outlet.

[jras]

SH is a posh psychiatric and substance abuse hospital in CT
(you'd love the angelfood cake)

[dumbslave]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
as far as i can tell: it's either a bakery or a navajo jewelry outlet.


No. It's the mental hospital in which you think I live but is actually where you spend all your time.

BTW, your earlier comment in this thread about standing showed an appalling lack of memory about basic constitutional law principles. You must have been out buying shoes that week and then failed to cover it in the outline you prepared for the final exam.

If you would just admit that you suffer from Narcissistic Personality Disorder and are, in fact, a poster child for this condition, people might be nicer to you. Perhaps SB will assist you in this process by making "Narcisstic Personality Disorder" your avatar.

From what I've read, therapy for this condition can take 30 years. If you start now, you might be able to pass as a human being right around the time you retire.

[h. von bingen]

thanks judgie. the best post in months.

re: standing, i wasn't thinking strictly speaking, but i think it works nonetheless. maybe i should have said you have no right. i defer to your legal analysis.

re: silver hills -- i rather preferred a bakery, but i'm glad they serve cake.

[Slinky Bender]

How about brioche?

[h. von bingen]

you can get that here:

http://www.poeticlicenseintl.com/atun.html

(i wish you had told me i had the power to demote people.)

[Slinky Bender]

How will they protect thier castles now?

[justme]

Originally posted by slinkybender
How will they protect thier castles now?

God, that was bad.

[Slinky Bender]

Guess you didn't see the one in "Sex Tips" yet.

[justme]

If that was a lotion pun then I'm trying to forget it.

[h. von bingen]

i have to say the score today is

slinky's jokes = 2
hvb's comprehension = 0

[alterego]

Originally posted by dumbslave
Perhaps SB will assist you in this process by making "Narcisstic Personality Disorder" your avatar.

I vote for 'prima donna'

æ

[h. von bingen]

here is my hoo doo hex on you:

u date 2 ex-future g/fs at once. they tie you up and throw you in the back seat of your tbird, take you for a joyride and force a tofu shake down your throat.

also, that thing's not called an avatar right? it's a tagline.

here's a suggestion: marie getthenet (in the brioche pun area).

[NOYL]

Originally posted by dumbslave
Perhaps SB will assist you in this process by making "Narcisstic Personality Disorder" your avatar.

Maybe Madame DeFarge would be more fitting.

[alterego]

Originally posted by h. von bingen

u date 2 ex-future g/fs at once. they tie you up and throw you in the back seat of your tbird, take you for a joyride.

I wish this would happen. For once I wouldn't have to be the driver and get stuck shlepping them all over the city.

æ

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by justme
If that was a lotion pun then I'm trying to forget it.

No.

Much, much worse than that.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by NOYL
Maybe Madame DeFarge would be more fitting.
I don't knit, but I'd love to learn. Knitting is all the rage among young women professionals. All my female law school classmates do it. They're also quitting the law to raise kids -- go figure.

[NOYL]

Madame Defarge

Possessing a remorseless bloodlust, Madame Defarge embodies the chaos of the French Revolution. The initial chapters of the novel find her sitting quietly and knitting in the wine-shop. However, her apparent passivity belies her relentless thirst for vengeance. With her stitches, she secretly knits a register of the names of the revolutions intended victims. As the revolution breaks into full force, Madame Defarge reveals her true viciousness. She turns on Lucie in particular, and, as violence sweeps Paris, she invades Lucie's physical and psychological space.

Madame DeFarge played by HVB

Lucie played by CB

[h. von bingen]

I really wouldn't mind a gig knitting in a wineshop in Paris as long as I wouldn't have to serve the wine. Maybe I could knit in Les Deux Maggots in the sun on the St. Germain side? That would be the greatest, but I hear the dollar is 1.3 now.

Confused has me rethinking London. Maybe I could knit during tea at Claridges?

[h. von bingen]

as for revolution stories my favorite as i have said many times is the scarlet pimpernel.

is he in heaven or is he in hell that damned elusive pimpernel?

[jseah]

Originally posted by alterego
I wish this would happen. For once I wouldn't have to be the driver and get stuck shlepping them all over the city.

æ

That's better than having to hold their bags and purses and stand there while they try on clothes.

[alterego]

I just won't do that shit.

æ

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by jseah
That's better than having to hold their bags and purses and stand there while they try on clothes.
guys don't like that? i was under the impression they LOVE that.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by alterego
I just won't do that shit.

æ
yeah yeah. (i bet justme is doing that these days.)

[alterego]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
guys don't like that?

Probably some guys do. But I just find it annoying.

æ

[jseah]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
guys don't like that? i was under the impression they LOVE that.

It's pretty hard to look "cool" when you're standing there hold a handbag......especially if it is some fuzzy Fendi thing.......Coach or D&B may be workable.

[justme]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
yeah yeah. (i bet justme is doing that these days.)

Nah.

[alterego]

It took me awhile, but I realize now it is possible to avoid alot of that shit.

æ

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justme
Nah.
it's only a matter time my friend.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by alterego
It took me awhile, but I realize now it is possible to avoid alot of that shit.

æ
how do you do it?

[jseah]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
how do you do it?

You just toss the handbag into one of the shopping bags........since you're probably going to be the one to have to pay for her purchases anyways......

[alterego]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
how do you do it?

You just say 'No'. And 'no' means 'no'.

æ

[Confused]

Hell, at the risk of hi-jacking a thread (when I don't even know where the hell its going anyway), Phantom, why follow women around the board making lttle comments designed to draw their attention. Does it to HVB, Cat, NYV, etc. WTF?

At the risk of attacking the poster and not the post, it all seems very kindergarten (well, actually, a kindergarten within a kindergarten).

Two problems with london - weather and class distinctions are both oppressive. Other than that, great town (although its hard to dig british women - its a good thing they have a lot of foreigners running around).

[NOYL]

Originally posted by Confused
...why follow women around the board making lttle comments designed to draw their attention. Does it to HVB, Cat, NYV, etc....

Like I'm the only one who does that. Seems you have a problem with me doing it and not others.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Confused
Two problems with london - weather and class distinctions are both oppressive.
i like the weather in london -- it's good for the skin. as for class distinctions, i hardly think the french are more democratic.

my problem with london is 2-fold. first, the food (although, while everyone know the indian is great; i love the chinese there as well), but how can a country so close to France serve such bad food*; and 2) i have a problem with the elgin marbles (although i do appreciate that that little heist has preserved them another century or 4).

*things may have changed, i haven't been there in a decade.

(hey could you take a look in the great books thread? i assume you know that author.)

[Confused]

Originally posted by NOYL
Like I'm the only one who does that. Seems you have a problem with me doing it and not others.

Channeling all jewish mothers:

So, if everyone jumped off the brooklyn bridge, would you do it also?

Actually, I should have been more clear. I notice that you follow women around this board and make SNIDE comments. Granted, guys follow around providers and throw fluffballs, but why do you follow women around the board and make snide comments? Not an attack, just curious?

HVB, I didn't recognize the authors name but am intrigued by the review. I'll take a closer look manana.

[jras]

I love London (and the UK countryside).
Fish & chips and bangers & mash and scotch eggs and steak & kidney pie, yummy pub grub.
For the carnivore in you, try the game too (hung til it begins to "loosen up"), with a side of carmelized root veggies.
Best bitters and brew this side of Belgium.
Tea good enough to make you forget about Starschmucks.
And ethnic food from around the world.
(but bloody expensive)
(and you gotta love those phone box gals)

[h. von bingen]

i love tea. i don't like pub food except for bubble and squeak. also, london is very big. paris is very small like manhattan.

also con, noyl can gripe all he wants. he has good points sometimes. but sometimes he's just onery.

(hey, i might even learn to knit, what with my being confined to quarters with a nasty throat thing.)

[jseah]

Originally posted by jras
....scotch eggs.....

mmmmmm..........scotch eggs.......reminds me of the Duke of Edinburgh in Cupertino, CA...........use to love eating those.....with lots of mustard.

[Truth]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
i have a problem with the elgin marbles

You and about 15 million Greeks worldwide. Don't ever bring that or the Cyprus issue up with a Greek.

[Confused]

Yeah, ornery is a good word. I used to use it to describe an x-gf.

As for food, if you have money in your pockets you can dine nearly as well as you would in NYC, it'll just cost you more.

Favorite restaurant in London, without a doubt - Momo's.

Great upscale morrocan place (in terms of decor), great vibe, music, women, decent service, and very, very reasonable. Has a vibe a bit like our Chez-es-Saada but is more lively, doesn't have a pretentious menu, and has larger portions.

http://www.momoresto.com/Home/restaurant.aspx

I wish they had one here.

[h. von bingen]

i think "nearly as well" is the operative phrase there. (and as i said it's been a decade and i think it's probably been a big food decade for london). whatever, i still like the city, but i wouldn't want to live there.

re: being sucked in to disclose. first of all, sorry; second of all, so easy isn't it?

actually london, paris and florence all have a section of my favorite painting by paolo ucello -- the battle of san romano. i was even less inclined to go there the first time i did, but i had to. i travel to see art first. (athough this seems to be changing as is everything else midlife).

[h. von bingen]

the scrovegni chapel nearly incapacitated me a couple of years ago. (wails of great heaving and gobbing.)

[Confused]

Originally posted by h. von bingen


re: being sucked in to disclose. first of all, sorry; second of all, so easy isn't it?



Appreciate the apology. Its scary how easy it is. I wonder who it will happen to next.

JL always seems to be so above that kind of petty shit. (and is always so careful of saying anything that would out him)

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by h. von bingen


re: being sucked in to disclose. first of all, sorry; second of all, so easy isn't it?



ironic, considering the thread title.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Confused
JL always seems to be so above that kind of petty shit. (and is always so careful of saying anything that would out him)
irl i am EXCELLENT at getting people to tell me intimate details of their lives and quickly. i think it's cause i am genuinely interested.

there have been a couple of times where jl has let go and had to delete a few things -- occassionally with another person's cooperation. he's studied but not so studied. i think there are more oblique posters. also, jl spends hours, 10s of hours, 100s of hours talking to strippers, he's engaging in some kind of petty shit. maybe he is too TIRED to engage in other petty shit.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by slinkybender
ironic, considering the thread title.
yes. i guess the government is not the biggest threat. (wasn't that the plot of the prisoner. g-d i loved that show.)

superfast processing in books?

[justme]

Originally posted by Confused
JL always seems to be so above that kind of petty shit. (and is always so careful of saying anything that would out him)

He's the most mature immature guy out there.

[h. von bingen]

pub grub tips in restaurants.

[justlooking]

Now I know what I want my epitath to be.

[jras]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
pub grub tips in restaurants.
don't eat the peas

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
Now I know what I want my epitath to be. que?

[Confused]

I may be completely off-base but I think JL, a commoner done good, is saying that he is a grub who would generally belong in a pub but can now afford the best restuarants and, when he frequents them, tips well.

In other words, a man from the masses whose intellect allowed him to reach the next echelon in society, and enjoyed being there.

But, then again, what do I know? I'm Confused.

[h. von bingen]

i like the whole analysis, but i don't glean well. i don't think well is there.

[Confused]

Well, the well I put in not so much because of any comment he made but I see him as a bit of a bon vivant, albeit a conservative one (ie spends on what he likes but isn't a big spender), and among other things, would like to be remembered that way.

(After all, he spends $ on strip clubs, dinners and sex, and probably understands and appreciates the commoner's hard work, do you think he's miserly when it comes to a little tip)

Yeah, but he's running around here somewhere, come on JL, clear it up cuz I'd rather do this than look at the EPTL today (not my usual gig, btw).

Ahhh...fuck it, its sunny outside, good time to smoke a butt.

[h. von bingen]

you smoke? could you be any more perfect?

[h. von bingen]

i don't think you're a commoner jl. after all you are virtually teaching a master class in how to get strippers to dole out extras. i think you're a whoreboard prince more like.

[justme]

And here I thought he was talking to me.

[h. von bingen]

that heh heh thing is fucking brilliant.

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
i think you're a whoreboard prince more like.

that's what he says to those strippers..... right after "ribbit, ribbit".

[Confused]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
you smoke? could you be any more perfect?


My flaws are good for character.


I'd be interested in seeing what you wrote before the edit.

[h. von bingen]

i had included my home phone number, but thought better of it.

[h. von bingen]

do i really need to say that was a joke? maybe i do. that was a joke.

[Confused]

Didn't need to say it. Hombre gave me your #.

j/k

Smoke? Galoises? Gitanes?

Certainly not Balto (if they're even made anymore)

[h. von bingen]

i used to favor boynards. now less pretentious marlboros and i like those nat sherman party cigs. the joking disclaimer was not for your benefit, rather . . .


hombre_secreto is muy pericoloso, but he's more humane than to inflict me on some other poor sap.

[justlooking]

I thought I was talking to justme, too.

[Confused]

Oh.....in that case, its apparent that I'm quite the narcisist today

(if you don't believe it based on this thread, just take a look all over the damn board)

Was still fun making the analysis, however wrong it might have been.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
I thought I was talking to justme, too. well see how wrong you were then?

[Thorn]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
as for revolution stories my favorite as i have said many times is the scarlet pimpernel.

is he in heaven or is he in hell that damned elusive pimpernel?

OK... I only just read this and considering the discourse I mentioned in another thread on this board the irony is just too delicious.

[h. von bingen]

damn thorn, NOTHING get by you.

[Thorn]

I am the voice inside your head,
the one that knows wrong from right.
You have no reason to dread,
or shrink away from me in fright.

I am nothing other then your alter you,
and on me you can rely.
Trust on me to be very true,
I'm your conscience, your other "I".



[just teasing. couldn't resist]

[h. von bingen]

the voices in my head are far more discreet than you are.

[Thorn]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
the voices in my head are far more discreet than you are.

LOL

To be sure.

[Lou Grant]

A federal court blocks release of aborton records:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/03/27/abortion.ruling.ap/index.html