How Do You Pursue A Stripper That Doesn't Sleep With Customers?

[lawyer101]

So I have been in search for that stripper who doesn’t “sleep” with customers and I wanted to see if with all the knowledge that I received in the “Stripper Advice” thread, if I could put it to use to “land” the stripper. Since I am new to the game it is still hard for me to distinguish between the girls that “sleep” with customer, the girls that don’t “sleep” with customers, and the strippers cum-providers.

I have a “downscale” hole-in-the-wall strip club near my house. I say that it is a “downscale club”(and I may be using this term incorrectly) because it has very minimal traffic (at least compared to a club like Gossip) and the set-up resembles what I think of when I think of a “downscale” club. No extras are offered. This place doesn’t even have a champagne room. All the lapdances are done in the “open” where all the bouncers can see what is going on. The mileage is very limited. It’s your basic local strip club.

Most of the girls are about 3-4’s with the majority of the girls being Russian. I did find one girl that is 26,American, and I’d say she is at least a 7. She has a great body, but her face is just ok.
I started pursuing this girl about 3 weeks ago. I have been going “down” to see her about 2-3 times a week. I also took the advice that you guys gave me about not spending that much money on the stripper, so I limit it to 4 dances a night($80). Before the dance and after the dance I always chat with her. We get along very well together. We have many of the same interests, so this makes for easy conversation. I generally spend an additional hour at the club just making conversation with her. Anyway, to make a long story short, I asked her about “sleeping” with me on a “pay for play” basis. This time I made everything clear as far as my intentions to pay her for sex and that I was not just looking for a friend with benefits. When I asked her the question, she seemed pissed off. She replied that she does not do things like that. After that, we were both silent. You could have cut the tension with “a knife”. I apologized to her if she thought that I offended her and she told me that she hates when guys ask her to “sleep” with her. I then used a JL line(and I don’t think I used it properly), I told her that I had ‘”slept” with other dancers on a “pay for play” basis, and I just figured that she may have been interested in making some more money outside of the club. Although I can honestly say that I have never slept with a stripper on a “pay for play” basis, and I think she could tell this as I was not as slick as some of her other customers may have been. I changed the topic and we started talking about something else. After all this took place, I just told her that I had to “go”. She still kissed me and gave me a big hug as I left, and she asked if I would be back to see her. I told her that I would.


Ok. Now guys, I have found a stripper that doesn’t “sleep” with customers. What do I need to do to pursue her? How do I get her to agree to a “pay for play” situation? Did i do anything wrong with my approach to the situation?

The funny thing about the whole situation is that I think if I would have just asked her for her phone number that she would have given it to me. Since I asked to pay her for sex, this changed the whole scenario.

[justlooking]

http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=230826&highlight=spoil#post230826

[lawyer101]

JL,
I read the above link.
Do you suggest(or agree with Danielle) that I should have given the stripper my phone number or should I be trying to get her phone #? Which approach works better?

[billyS]

Why do you feel the need to pursue strippers? Is it some type of Whore/Madona complex? Ok, you're 24 year old guy, a little chunky maybe, but aren't there any girls in your class's you can date? Can't you get girls to sleep with you by telling them your a lawyer? If you want to pay for sex why not just go to an escort? I don't understand this obsession with scoring a stripper.

BTW, I miss Slinky. If he were still running thing I could have worded my response a little stronger. Think Demigawd.

[lawyer101]

I guess what I'm asking is, do I ask her again to "pay for play" or do I assume if she does become interested in an "outside meeting" that she will bring it up to me?

[justme]

(Unlike BillyS, I rather like BillyS's civility)

I think you're done with that particular woman. She knows you're interested. If you want to see her as a stripper go ahead. If she changes her mind, I'm sure she'll let you know. The key, however, would be not continuing to see her because she'll change her mind, but rather because you enjoy seeing her as a stripper.

Convincing a stripper to sleep with you shouldn't be all that different than convincing any woman to sleep with you. The only difference is that you lower the bar a little bit with the promise of money and no responsibility.

But ultimately, you can't make someone sleep with youeither for money or not.

[billyS]

Originally posted by justme
(Unlike BillyS, I rather like BillyS's civility)


But it was so much more fun the other way. Remember how Daro and others would egg me on when ever Demigawd or Sadandhopless posted their sad sack stories? The raging battles with Kimmie that turned into hot passionate fucking ? (not that I want to fuck Lawyer).

[billyS]

Getting back to the subject (I wouldn't want to hijack a thread like my CLFB), I don't see why a young guy would want to date a stripper, especially for money. When I was that age I had enough confidence and charm(not to mention a full head of hair) to date girls from work or clubs. If I wanted a quick sure thing, I'd go to Queens Blvd, throw down some cash and get a half/half for say $40. I did got to topless bars, (Happy Tips, Cucci's, the Ravens Nest, Salem Inn to name a few), but I never considered dateing a dancer. A bought them a few drinks now and then but I never thought to seek out their company outside the bar. The guys I saw spending serious face time with the ladies were older monied looking guys (JL?) who wore nice clothes and had nice gold watches. The only younger guys I saw scoring dancer were muscular biker/construction worker types. Somehow Lawyer101 does not seem to fit in either of these catagories. So I'm puzzled by his insistence in trying to date a stripper.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by billyS
Somehow Lawyer101 does not seem to fit in either of these catagories. So I'm puzzled by his insistence in trying to date a stripper.

I'd have to agree with you that 101 is behaving in a mildly atypical way for his age and situation (to the extent that we know it...and perhaps we do not know all the relevant facts), but you know, people are not all alike. It takes all kinds. And not fitting into one of the common categories of strip club denizens which you mention in your post only makes his perspective more interesting and valauble.

"Let a thousand flowers bloom." Etc.

-Ww

[popeye]

with a lot of money, gifts, and lack of self respect... then maybe you may get some...

Pop

[uptowngirls]

I was thinking the same thing that Billy S was thinking this guy is obsessed with Strippers. just throw out some bejamins to them and some lawyer bs, and they should want to date you.

[nychelsea]

Lawyer,

Just me has it right. Why should seducing a stripper be different from seducing anyone else?

You've got to work it, Lawyer, maybe not be so direct. Work around the edges. Maybe it is like interrogating a witness - a lot of words before you get where you want to be.

I would have found some ways to encourage getting together with the lady to share some of those common interests that you mentioned.

It amazes me that the lady would feign being insulted that you asked her out. My experience is that many strip queens are available for outside activities - you just need to have the key. It is the challenge that is interesting.

By the way, I haven't been to a strip club for years so things could have changed --

Chels

[buddyyy]

It seems like this quest to bed a stripper that doesn't sleep with customers has some problems.

If your objective is to develop a close relationship with this woman and in that context sleep with her, a PMB hardly seems like the place to seek advice. Further, if you do end up sleeping with her in the context of a sincere relationship it does not seem that the fact she is a stripper is really material.

On the other hand, if your wish is to sleep with a stripper who does not sleep with customers 'as a customer' and you are successful it would only seem to indicate that you were wrong in your initial assessment.

[Casper]

Not that I try often but a while ago I bedded a brazilian stripper from a somewhat upscale NJ club. Was the first time I had met her and to my surprise after a few hours of some idle occasional chit chat to my surprise she said yes. We met after her club closed up for the night, had fun for 1.5 hours but wasn't anything extra special, although she was hot. I've seen her one other time at that club, she remembered me and I almost accepted her invite to meet her and her friend a few days later, but never followed through. I don't see the fascination in "dating" them other than the fact that you MIGHT be doing someone that most can't or isn't (but that's why G-d created utr types).

[billyS]

Casper, I've seen a few stories simialar to yours on this board but I don't think this is what Lawyerloo is looking for. Examples like yours are when the girl is horny, doesn't have a boyfreind and takes a liking to a customer. Result is sex for the customer. I think what Laweryloo is looking for is what buddyyy described.
Originally posted by buddyyy
your wish is to sleep with a stripper who does not sleep with customers 'as a customer' and you are successful

[billyS]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
I'd have to agree with you that 101 is behaving in a mildly atypical way for his age and situation (to the extent that we know it...and perhaps we do not know all the relevant facts), but you know, people are not all alike. It takes all kinds. And not fitting into one of the common categories of strip club denizens which you mention in your post only makes his perspective more interesting and valauble.

Good point Ww. However let me clarify my point alittle. I said the guys who were SUCESSFUL at scoring strippers seemed to be older monied guys, who were well groomed and tipped from a thick roll of bills in a money clip, or the young muscular biker/construction 'blue collar' types. I did not, however, say these were the only types I saw attemtping. I rememeber back in the early '80's there was this guy who would fawn all over this dancer. He was around my age (early 20's at the time) and would try to act like she was his girlfriend. You could see the love in his eyes. One night at the Rainforest (now Le Cafe) he walks in, waves to her on stage and hands her a teddy bear. She thanked him from the stage. But after the dance she came over and sat next to me while lover boy steamed. I asked her if that guy was her boyfreind since he was always hovering over her and she was like "hell no', he always comes in and buys me things and asks me out , but look at him", "I just try to be nice to him" So he was trying but didn't fit the profile and failed.

[Casper]

Originally posted by billyS
Casper, I've seen a few stories simialar to yours on this board but I don't think this is what Lawyerloo is looking for. Examples like yours are when the girl is horny, doesn't have a boyfreind and takes a liking to a customer. Result is sex for the customer. I think what Laweryloo is looking for is what buddyyy described.

Billy the only thing she took a liking to the donation we agreed to beforehand.

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by justme
(Unlike BillyS, I rather like BillyS's civility)

I think you're done with that particular woman. She knows you're interested. If you want to see her as a stripper go ahead. If she changes her mind, I'm sure she'll let you know. The key, however, would be not continuing to see her because she'll change her mind, but rather because you enjoy seeing her as a stripper.

Convincing a stripper to sleep with you shouldn't be all that different than convincing any woman to sleep with you. The only difference is that you lower the bar a little bit with the promise of money and no responsibility.

But ultimately, you can't make someone sleep with youeither for money or not.

This was my understanding of the whole situation also. If a stripper says she doesn't have sex with customes, then she doesnn't have sex with customers. I have read posts from guys on this board who have said that they only chase strippers that don't "sleep" with customers. The whole concept of a stripper that doesn't "sleep" with customers sleeping with you seems interesting to me. If I were to pay for sex, this is the only type of girl that I would consider. Since she has said that she doesn't "sleep" with customers, she is one of the girls that guys on the board have talked about "chaseing".

I agree that I can continue to see her as a stripper at the club, but to think that she may in the future agree to "sleep" with me is nothing more than dilusional(and may cost me a shitload of money:)).

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
I'd have to agree with you that 101 is behaving in a mildly atypical way for his age and situation (to the extent that we know it...and perhaps we do not know all the relevant facts), but you know, people are not all alike. It takes all kinds. And not fitting into one of the common categories of strip club denizens which you mention in your post only makes his perspective more interesting and valauble.

"Let a thousand flowers bloom." Etc.

-Ww

Thanks WW.
I'll be honest when I say that before I was a member of Utopia Guide, I never had any interest in "sleeping" with a stripper. This is not because I have not found strippers to be hot, I just always figured that a stripper would find it rude if you asked her for a "pay for play" situation(All this can be seen in the 1st thread about strippers that I had posted in when I first became a member of UG). Even after all those posts, I still had no real desire to "bed" a stripper. Shortly after that i started learing about the different levels of strippers - strippers cum-providers,strippers that "sleep" with some customers, and strippers that don "sleep' with customers. Stripper cum-providers don't interest me. If a stripper is "sleeping" with any guy that asks, then I see no thrill in that. Strippers that "sleep" with some customers and Strippers that don't "sleep" with customers is what intrigued me. As I said in my initial post on this thread, it is hard for me to distinguish the 3 different types of strippers. My question with this stripper was what do I need to do now that she has said that she doesn't sleep with customers. She is the type of stripper that I am "after". To be quite honest, I have never paid for sex, besides handjobs at local peepshow clubs, and a few blowjobs at bachelor parties(I was drunk "out of my mind" and this was one of the main reasons that I participated in this activity. If I was sober, I don't think that I would have done it). The whole "pay for play" thing is new to me, so even if I was able to get this stripper to agree to "sleep" with me, I think I would still have to consider if I REALLY wanted to do it. I would like the option where I could make that choice.

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by popeye
with a lot of money, gifts, and lack of self respect... then maybe you may get some...

Pop

lol...
The money, and gifts wouldn't be a problem, but the lack of self respsect would bother me.

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by nychelsea
Lawyer,

Just me has it right. Why should seducing a stripper be different from seducing anyone else?

You've got to work it, Lawyer, maybe not be so direct. Work around the edges. Maybe it is like interrogating a witness - a lot of words before you get where you want to be.

I would have found some ways to encourage getting together with the lady to share some of those common interests that you mentioned.

It amazes me that the lady would feign being insulted that you asked her out. My experience is that many strip queens are available for outside activities - you just need to have the key. It is the challenge that is interesting.

By the way, I haven't been to a strip club for years so things could have changed --

Chels

Chels,
I agree that seducing a stripper is like suducing any other woman. My only problem is that I was attempting to get a "pay for Play" situation with a stripper at Gossip, but when I asked her to hang out with me, and then she gave me her number. Well, I can say that I've made a friend with benefits who has now turned "psycho" on me(I'm not going to get into this). I was not clear in my intentions with her, and later on it was even harder for me to tell her that I only wanted to "sleep" with her and that I was not looking for a friend.

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by buddyyy
On the other hand, if your wish is to sleep with a stripper who does not sleep with customers 'as a customer' and you are successful it would only seem to indicate that you were wrong in your initial assessment.

This was my intial reaction to the strippers that don't "sleep" with customers idea. A few of the guys proved my idea to be incorrect and even cited different situations where they have "slept" with girls that didn't even offer extras in the club.

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by Casper
I don't see the fascination in "dating" them other than the fact that you MIGHT be doing someone that most can't or isn't (but that's why G-d created utr types).

That is the exact reason why most guys "date" strippers.
(or at least a good reason why I would want to)

[busted]

Originally posted by lawyer101
I was not clear in my intentions with her, and later on it was even harder for me to tell her that I only wanted to "sleep" with her and that I was not looking for a friend.

I think that is the problem, my episodes always go back to not being clear on intentions, both mine and hers. Misrepresentations, you should be aware, only lead to problems. People get hurt and its a tough situation. Adding the "below the radar" nature of the beast and it becomes almost impossible to manage.

Money spent and major frustrations abound and goals not met, are the norm.

All that being said, I'm spending a week in Myrtle Beach and hopefully I can get one! :)

[Captain Kirk]

Originally posted by billyS
Can't you get girls to sleep with you by telling them your a lawyer? Is he really a lawyer?

[billyS]

Originally posted by Captain Kirk
Is he really a lawyer?
No, he hasn't passed the bar.

[buddyyy]

Originally posted by lawyer101
This was my intial reaction to the strippers that don't "sleep" with customers idea. A few of the guys proved my idea to be incorrect and even cited different situations where they have "slept" with girls that didn't even offer extras in the club.

I have not read all the threads but the sense I got was that the woman they dated were fairly selective about which customers they would sleep with, and that they would not sleep with someone just because of the money, and that some of these woman were not big on extras in the club, but I didn't think that they had indicated they thought that these ladies never slept with any customers.

[nychelsea]

Lawyer,

I'm not sure I completely understand. You want to date a stripper in order to seduce her - yet you don't want any kind of a relationship? Well, in that case, I guess the direct method might be best. In my days of challenging myself with strippers, I nearly always had to establish common interests, and used them to attain the ultimate goal.

Keep trying!

Chels

[prtyr2]

First thing you need to decide is, do you want P4P or to sleep with her, under more "normal" circumstances.

With this stripper, you are pretty much out of luck. If you wanted P4P, you aked, she answered, she was probably insulted, and I doubt you could do anything to change her mind.

As far as dating without P4P, the other posters are pretty much right. You would approach it the same way as trying to date almost any other girl.

I have actually dated a fair amount of strippers over the years, and the method that worked best for me was to do NOTHING. In almost every case, it was s stripper that I sort of "hit it off" with. I have NEVER asked for a stripper's number.

By the way you describe the club, I would venture to guess it might be Le Cafe or whatever it is called in Bethpage? I went out with a Dominican stripper from that place a few years back. In that case, the fact that I spoke spanish and had been to her country a TON of times was the "ice breaker".

I think with strippers. They are used to and maybe tired of being "pursued" by nearly every customer. I think if they are at all interested, the best approach is to not work it so hard.

As far as what Biils said about the type of guy strippers go for. . . . . .I got a chuckle out of that. A few years back, I was a sales rep that traveled a LOT. I met and dated strippers in Toronto, NY, Texas, etc etc etc. I was making good coin, and many times would be semi dressed up. No suits but many times a sport coat and jeans etc. I also probably look like I could be a biker.
In fact if I had a nickel for every time a dancer asked me if I had a harley,I'd be able to afford a night in the VIP room at Scores!

One dancer in Texas, basically was 18 when I met her and I waqs probably 37. She was very cute, but had a sort of big butt. J Lo plus some! The second time I met her was a slow sunday afternoon. I stopped in because I was in town on business and watching sunday afternoon football at the club seemed better than other alternatives.

She came over sat on my lap and asked if I remembered her from friday night. Friday night I had been there with a co worker and 2 clients. I did NOT remember her. She said I barely looked at her while she danced for me. She said I got 5 dances from her. I honestly did not remember.

This sunday, she sat with me, mostly on my lap for 5 hours and did not LD for any customers including me. She started telling me that she really wanted a boyfriend but most guys don't want to date strippers etc. We really just shot the breeze etc.

I would see her a once in a while and we always a had a good time just hanging out in her club.

Then I actually moved to texas, and got Married, so I never went to the club unless I had clients in town. While I was having what turned out to be the last fight with my second wife. . . . . .I got pissed one night and needed to get out.

I stopped by the club and even though it was maybe 2 years since we had seen each other she came running over and once again sat in my lap all night. On this night she gave me her number. A week or so later I stopped in and she was pissed I hadn't called. She said she gave me her number for a reason. After that we went out a few times, after my wife moved back to NY etc.

[howardnotstern]

Originally posted by lawyer101
... I can say that I've made a friend with benefits who has now turned "psycho" on me(I'm not going to get into this)....

come on, spill the beans

[justlooking]

1. DITTO to all of billy's posts in this thread.

2. Obviously, by definition, you can't get a stripper to sleep with you for cash if she NEVER sleeps with customers for money. The best you can hope for is "infrequently" or "hasn't yet". (There's a Danielle post on this subject that I'll link if I can find it.)

3. Whether or not a stripper generally does extras in the club is not determinative. There are at least two strippers I've "dated" who were fairly famous for not doing serious extras. (No, I don't mean who you think.)

4. DITTO to all billy's posts in this thread. If you're not an older, obviously prosperous, married man, I'm not sure how you could pull this off, for a whole host of reasons I'm too bored to go into now.

[justlooking]

http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=231385&highlight=principle%2A#post231385

[justlooking]

5. DITTO to justme, too. Odd as it may seem, this isn't any different from any other male/female, or human, interaction.

6. I think it was a big mistake for lawyer to lie to this girl about having done this before. As I keep saying, I think to suceed at this you have to NOT BE GAMING THE WOMAN.

7. DITTO to all billy's posts in this thread.

[justlooking]

8. And DITTO to justme again, too.

[buddyyy]

Originally posted by justlooking
http://www.utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=230826&highlight=spoil#post230826

Are you comfortable giving out your business card like that or have you had a special card printed up?

(Although I guess that just having your card doesn't prove that much - I've been told that there are lots of lawyer's cards tacked up in the ladies room at many of the clubs.

[justlooking]

I give them my cell number or take theirs.

[justlooking]

OK, let me say this one more time (and really I'm probably just "DITTO"ing justme).

At least as far as I'm concerned, there isn't a "method" or anything. It's just human interaction. The fact that you feel compelled to lie indicates that you probably are approaching this all wrong. Do you understand what I'm saying?

[billyS]

Originally posted by justlooking
1. DITTO to all of billy's posts in this thread.

4. DITTO to all billy's posts in this thread. If you're not an older, obviously prosperous, married man, I'm not sure how you could pull this off, for a whole host of reasons I'm too bored to go into now.

Originally posted by justlooking
7. DITTO to all billy's posts in this thread.

Seriously, I can't think of a better compliment on a whore board.
If Lawery101 wasn't mad at me for taking him to task on his reviews and having the false notion that I impersonate him on StripClubs.com, then I would hope he read my posts.

[buddyyy]

Originally posted by billyS
Seriously, I can't think of a better compliment on a whore board.
If Lawery101 wasn't mad at me for taking him to task on his reviews and having the false notion that I impersonate him on StripClubs.com, then I would hope he read my posts.

What I heard was that lawyer101 was impersonating billyS.

[billyS]

Originally posted by buddyyy
What I heard was that lawyer101 was impersonating billyS.
Really? Now I have to go to that site and check that out.

[ExLS]

Originally posted by billyS
Really? Now I have to go to that site and check that out.

Here is the deal:

Someone was pretending to be lawyer101 and they said that the imposter was you BillyS. No offense, BillyS, but you and lawyer101 went at it over his reviews. I am not saying nothing nor implying it, but read the posts under Wet Dreams on *************.com

[billyS]

Originally posted by buddyyy
What I heard was that lawyer101 was impersonating billyS.

HA, Ha,Ha You are right buddyyy and Ceasar. Someone is posting as BillyS on that shit site. What is interesting is that the anti7 posts are surrounding my imposter's posts
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by steinbuster

All that being said, I'm spending a week in Myrtle Beach and hopefully I can get one! :)

Good Luck with getting a stripper in Myrtle Beach...:)

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by nychelsea
Lawyer,

I'm not sure I completely understand. You want to date a stripper in order to seduce her - yet you don't want any kind of a relationship? Well, in that case, I guess the direct method might be best. In my days of challenging myself with strippers, I nearly always had to establish common interests, and used them to attain the ultimate goal.

Keep trying!

Chels

I want a "pay for play" situation. I don't want to date her as far as her being a girlfriend.

I think I may have been too direct in my method of asking her. JL posted a link to a post that Danielle had wrote that gives a good description on how to ask a stripper to "sleep" with you. I'll get this right one day...lol

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by buddyyy
I have not read all the threads but the sense I got was that the woman they dated were fairly selective about which customers they would sleep with, and that they would not sleep with someone just because of the money, and that some of these woman were not big on extras in the club, but I didn't think that they had indicated they thought that these ladies never slept with any customers.

Yes. I think you are right. I may have misunderstood the whole idea of strippers that don't "sleep" with customers. My reference should be about strippers that only "sleep" with some customers.

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by prtyr2
First thing you need to decide is, do you want P4P or to sleep with her, under more "normal" circumstances.

With this stripper, you are pretty much out of luck. If you wanted P4P, you aked, she answered, she was probably insulted, and I doubt you could do anything to change her mind.

As far as dating without P4P, the other posters are pretty much right. You would approach it the same way as trying to date almost any other girl.

I have actually dated a fair amount of strippers over the years, and the method that worked best for me was to do NOTHING. In almost every case, it was s stripper that I sort of "hit it off" with. I have NEVER asked for a stripper's number.

By the way you describe the club, I would venture to guess it might be Le Cafe or whatever it is called in Bethpage? I went out with a Dominican stripper from that place a few years back. In that case, the fact that I spoke spanish and had been to her country a TON of times was the "ice breaker".

I think with strippers. They are used to and maybe tired of being "pursued" by nearly every customer. I think if they are at all interested, the best approach is to not work it so hard.

As far as what Biils said about the type of guy strippers go for. . . . . .I got a chuckle out of that. A few years back, I was a sales rep that traveled a LOT. I met and dated strippers in Toronto, NY, Texas, etc etc etc. I was making good coin, and many times would be semi dressed up. No suits but many times a sport coat and jeans etc. I also probably look like I could be a biker.
In fact if I had a nickel for every time a dancer asked me if I had a harley,I'd be able to afford a night in the VIP room at Scores!

One dancer in Texas, basically was 18 when I met her and I waqs probably 37. She was very cute, but had a sort of big butt. J Lo plus some! The second time I met her was a slow sunday afternoon. I stopped in because I was in town on business and watching sunday afternoon football at the club seemed better than other alternatives.

She came over sat on my lap and asked if I remembered her from friday night. Friday night I had been there with a co worker and 2 clients. I did NOT remember her. She said I barely looked at her while she danced for me. She said I got 5 dances from her. I honestly did not remember.

This sunday, she sat with me, mostly on my lap for 5 hours and did not LD for any customers including me. She started telling me that she really wanted a boyfriend but most guys don't want to date strippers etc. We really just shot the breeze etc.

I would see her a once in a while and we always a had a good time just hanging out in her club.

Then I actually moved to texas, and got Married, so I never went to the club unless I had clients in town. While I was having what turned out to be the last fight with my second wife. . . . . .I got pissed one night and needed to get out.

I stopped by the club and even though it was maybe 2 years since we had seen each other she came running over and once again sat in my lap all night. On this night she gave me her number. A week or so later I stopped in and she was pissed I hadn't called. She said she gave me her number for a reason. After that we went out a few times, after my wife moved back to NY etc.

I want the "pay for play". I already have a girlfriend at home.
I guess what I should say is that I want to have the choice of "paying for play". As I stated in an above post, I am new(and a bit scared) of the commercial sex industry. With people getting infected with the HIV virus on almost a daily basis, I think that paying for sex from an escort is not something that I would get involved with. I view Strippers as being safer, just due to the fact that they don't sleep with every guy that has a "dick" and $500 dollars. I know that JL will argue that any time you engage in a sexual act with an escort or provider, both will put you at risk of getting a disease. I will still argue that I would still prefer to "bed" a stripper than an escort.

The club that I have been visiting is not Lecafe. It is a similar club in appearnce to LeCafe(it's not as nice).

Thanks for the "real life" stories. I like reading them as it helps to get the point accross...:)

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by howardnotstern
come on, spill the beans

lol...:)
The one thing that I have learned from JL is that some things
need to stay off the board.

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by justlooking
1. DITTO to all of billy's posts in this thread.

2. Obviously, by definition, you can't get a stripper to sleep with you for cash if she NEVER sleeps with customers for money. The best you can hope for is "infrequently" or "hasn't yet". (There's a Danielle post on this subject that I'll link if I can find it.)

3. Whether or not a stripper generally does extras in the club is not determinative. There are at least two strippers I've "dated" who were fairly famous for not doing serious extras. (No, I don't mean who you think.)

4. DITTO to all billy's posts in this thread. If you're not an older, obviously prosperous, married man, I'm not sure how you could pull this off, for a whole host of reasons I'm too bored to go into now.

JL,
I did misunderstand the whole idea of strippers that don't "sleep" with customers. I meant to refer to strippers that "sleep" with some customers.

Can it be assumed that if a stripper doesn't offer(or offers minimal)extras, that she is a girl that only "sleeps" with some customers? I still can't tell between strippers cum-providers and strippers that only "sleep" with some customers. I know if I were to ask them, that they would all say that they only "sleep" with some customers.

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by justlooking

6. I think it was a big mistake for lawyer to lie to this girl about having done this before. As I keep saying, I think to suceed at this you have to NOT BE GAMING THE WOMAN.


My thinking was maybe she would have felt more comfortable with that "pay for play" idea I said that. It didn't work.
In a sense, since I am new this scene, I think I have to "game" the dancer.

Give me some advice. Based on the information that I gave above, how would have you handled the situation? What would you have said? Besides me lieing about doing this before, do you think I should have done anything else different?

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by justlooking
OK, let me say this one more time (and really I'm probably just "DITTO"ing justme).

At least as far as I'm concerned, there isn't a "method" or anything. It's just human interaction. The fact that you feel compelled to lie indicates that you probably are approaching this all wrong. Do you understand what I'm saying?

The only reason I lied was because I was running out of options. I didn't know what else to say that would convince her to "pay for play" with me.

[billyS]

Ok Lawyerloo so lets re-cap here. You have a girlfriend but seek some "play for pay'. Ok cool so far. Whores are beneath you, they are out of the question. But you think you are going to find this virtuous stripper, who won't fuck anyone else for money, thus making her disease free, yet will fuck you for money and understand that you don't want her as a friend or a girlfriend, you want to treat her like a whore (pay her for sex) but you are the only one in her life that can treat her like that? That about sum it up?

[billyS]

So again I ask you, What is it about strippers that make you think one of them, who otherwise doesn't fuck for money will let you treat her like a whore?

[billyS]

You say that you don't want friendship or anything else, just give her some money, she spreads her legs and you stick it in. What you really want is some innocent stripper to become your private whore.

[billyS]

So what type of girl would go for this? What type of girl would be a candidate for Lawyer's private whore? She must be fresh. She must have never slept with a guy for money. But yet she must have some other needs. Maybe a drug problem? Why else would she prositute herself. Debts? So for a stripper who never did this before to suddenly agree to become Lawyers private whore what would be her circumstances. Think about it Lawyer and this might help you find your dreamgirl.

[Cat_Ballou]

Originally posted by billyS
Ok Lawyerloo so lets re-cap here. You have a girlfriend but seek some "play for pay'. Ok cool so far. Whores are beneath you, they are out of the question. But you think you are going to find this virtuous stripper, who won't fuck anyone else for money, thus making her disease free, yet will fuck you for money and understand that you don't want her as a friend or a girlfriend, you want to treat her like a whore (pay her for sex) but you are the only one in her life that can treat her like that? That about sum it up? Nicely put, BillyS.

This thread makes me think of that incredibly creepy and disturbing movie, "The Company of Men." Oh, I know, not the same plot, but it still gives me the same, skeevy feeling...

Do you intend to marry this girlfriend, Lawyer, or does your future bride have to be a virgin?

[justlooking]

Once again, DITTO to all billyS's posts.

[justlooking]

Lawyer, you're approaching this from the completely wrong perspective for completely wrong (and in my opinion misguided) reasons. If you ever succeed, it'll be by accident.

[howardnotstern]

that was a documentary film, right?


(i also believe cynthia heimel rocks)

[Cat_Ballou]

Originally posted by howardnotstern
that was a documentary film, right?


(i also believe cynthia heimel rocks) Thank God it wasn't a documentary. That movie totally freaked me out. I shudder to think that it might have been based on a true story...

How cool, that Cynthia has so many fans in these parts. I don't know why, but I'm very surprised...

[justme]

What's so confusing?

You have a few people around here who seem to be extremely intelligent, discerning, and experienced. These posters constantly argue that UTR's and semi pro strippers offer the best commercial sex experience for some variety of reasons. These same posters, and others, also often claim that every stripper (with a very small set of exceptions) is available for some kind of illegal extra, and that 'most' will sleep with someone for money.

So you're Lawyer101, and you come to UG with almost no experience with prostitutes, but a decent amount of experience with strippers. Strippers are your commercial sex reality. But look, how fortuitous! Not only do strippers offer the best experience (which substantiates the bias you feel against prostitutes), but all of them are available (to someone). Well, hell, you're young and monied and have it together. If a bunch of middle aged guys can convince a stripper to sleep with them for money and without obligation, why can't you?

I'm reminded of the audio sites where people (like me) go on about the wonders of tube electronics and anaolog sources. Vinyl sounds more 'natural' and tubes are so much more 'musical'. I remember reading a thread started by someone who wanted recommendations for entry level turntables. He wanted to evaluate for himself whether records sounded better than CD's. Aside from all the predictable advice, there was a post by a vinyl enthisiast who advised him not to buy a turntable. Everyone was shocked! Here was a guy that would go head to head with people over esoteric aspects of how to get the best sound out of a turnatable and he was recommending that someone not get a turntable. So he explained himself. Records, he stated, are not something that you get into simply because you want the best sound. Analog systems are fussy and need constant retooling. Records themselves are often hard to find new and new releases are seldom done on vinyl. Vinyl, he argued, was more a lifestyle choice than a consumer choice. It was for people who really enjoyed spending hours in used record shops, or estate sales, or antique stores. It was for people that were willing to spend an hour trying to clean and condition a few old records that may or may not sound good at the end. It was for people who enjoyed playing with vertical tracking angles and antiskating settings. Do they offer better sound than CD's? Yes, but the difference in sound doesn't justify the work you have to put into owning a vinyl rig. The only reason you'd want to own a turntable is because you enjoy doing all the 'work'.

Lawyer101 strikes me as the kind of young, upwardly mobile professional that wants the 'best' of everything. So he wants the 'best' prostitution experience. The mistake he's making is in thinking that he shares the aesthetic values and priorities of the the people on this board that enjoy UTR's and semipros so very much.

If I were Lawyer101, I'd probably seriously think about what it is that I think is missing in my life that can be filled with paying someone to sleep with me for money.

What is it, exactly, that he hopes to get out of commercial sex?

In my experience, even those people who get 'a lot' out of commercial sex don't get all that much and they seldom get 'enough'.

[justme]

In the Company of Men was a fantastic film.

It freaked my girlfriend (at the time) out, though.

[Cat_Ballou]

"In the Company of Men" is a very well-written, well-made movie, but it should rightfully freak out any woman. For months after seeing it, I found myself occasionally looking at guys I've known for years and wondering, "Is he capable of being so vicious? Is the main character an exception to what men are basically like, or is this The Big Secret? Can any man be that sociopathic, or is this the story of an aberration?"

I'm still shuddering. But, that does confirm your point: only a really well-constructed film can have that effect, so long after the viewing. The same story, poorly done, I could write off as simple misogyny (kind of an oxymoron, but you know what I mean), but it's impossible to do that with "Company..."

[justlooking]

Originally posted by lawyer101
The only reason I lied was because I was running out of options. I didn't know what else to say that would convince her to "pay for play" with me.

This is an example. If it's not gonna happen, it's not gonna happen. You just have to accept that.

[justlooking]

Why do you think it is that I happily own, use, and maintain a turntable but won't bother with tubes even though I know they sound better?

[justme]

Don't you normally blame the heat generated by the tubes?

[justlooking]

I guess that is it. Although I admit that biasing etc. scares the shit out of me. I think I know the reason, too. (Bringing this back On-Topic.) It has to do with a remark a Prostitute Friend (formerly a Stripper Friend) once made to me when I told her I was hiring someone to do some minor household repair work for me: "Stop being so Jewish!"

[robnotbob]

Originally posted by justme
What's so confusing?



What is it, exactly, that he hopes to get out of commercial sex?

In my experience, even those people who get 'a lot' out of commercial sex don't get all that much and they seldom get 'enough'.

This whole post is great.

[justme]

Biasing?

Jeez, biasing takes all of a minute and requires a screwdriver.

It's a little tough when you have to use a multimeter to measure the potential difference across a junction, but increasingly manufactureres are just building the into the chasis. Basically all you have to do is turn a screwdriver until a number hits a certain value and then stop.

And it isn't necessary to be completely precise, either.

If I can bias an amp, anyone can.

[buddyyy]

Originally posted by justlooking
Why do you think it is that I happily own, use, and maintain a turntable but won't bother with tubes even though I know they sound better?

That's interesting. I do just the opposite.

I run an Audible Illusion pre-amp into two Quicksilver amps but use a DPA CD player (which includes d to a converter in a separate box).

While I think that a turntable and vinyl could produce perceptibly better sound at times, the environmental issues associated with it doing so, and the discipline associated with maintaining the vinyl in pristine condition seemed impractical to me.

As Justme suggests the Quicksilvers have integrated meters and biasing is very easy.

[justlooking]

I drool over the Audible Illusions preamp (and the Quicksilvers, for that matter).

[justme]

Don't you think it's about time to replace your electronics...?

(justkidding)

[buddyyy]

Originally posted by howardnotstern
that was a documentary film, right?



In the Company of Men (http://www.allwatchers.com/Topics/Info_4363.aspn)

Starring: Aaron Eckhart, Matt Malloy, Stacy Edwards

Review Summary
Two junior executives, 10 years out of college, are headed on a six-week business trip to a branch office in another city. Mousey Howard (Malloy) reveals to more assertive Chad (Eckhart) that he's just been dumped by his girlfriend and he's bitter. Chad says he's in the same boat and they ought to get some revenge for all the pain women cause. He suggests they find and romance a woman on their trip, then cruelly dump her. Dubious Howard agrees, and they choose a beautiful secretary in the branch office who also happens to be deaf. This 1997 film, writer-director Neil LaBute's debut (he would later do "Your Friends and Neighbors" and "Nurse Betty") disturbed a lot of viewers with its sardonic view of the more poisonous side of male bonding. It's a small but sharp-tongued and impressive movie.

[justlooking]

I think my wife could almost bring herself to tolerate everything that's written on this board EXCEPT that last justme post.

[justme]

Originally posted by justme
(justkidding)

[justme]

Besides, it's not like I was talking about wire, tweaks, power conditioning, or (gasp) accoustic devices.

[buddyyy]

Originally posted by justme
Don't you think it's about time to replace your electronics...?

(justkidding)

I have had that system now for about 8 years and I have no doubt that if I were to talk to someone current and knowledgeable they could probably make some arguments and perhaps even arguments I could hear, why that would be the case.

Which is why I make a concerted effort not to get involved in any such discussions.

The only downside maintenance wise that I have experienced with tube systems is the fact that tubes do expire and need to be replaced. For some reason I am reluctant to just replace a single bad tube (assuming of course that it is about the same age as the others - rather than a victim or infant mortality) so every once in a while you do have that expenditure.

I guess another downside is that they do really need to be allowed to warm up which mitigates against some impromptu listening.

But neither of those two factors is significant in the context of the difference in sound - even with digital source.

[Wwanderer]

It has been quite a long time since an interesting thread turned into an audiophile discussion; it used to happen with great regularity. I guess that shows that UG is not in decline in all respects.

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou
For months after seeing it, I found myself occasionally looking at guys I've known for years and wondering, "Is he capable of being so vicious? Is the main character an exception to what men are basically like, or is this The Big Secret? Can any man be that sociopathic, or is this the story of an aberration?"

I did not see that movie but there is a considerable amount of uncomforting and frightening evidence that quite a large fraction of people, definitely the majority, are capable of incredible barbarism and savagery in the "right" ("wrong" would be more apt) circumstances, especially in cases involving a break down of normal standards of behavior by a large group of people. I have in mind things like wartime attrocities, behavior in riots and the like.

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme

1 - If I were Lawyer101, I'd probably seriously think about what it is that I think is missing in my life that can be filled with paying someone to sleep with me for money.

2 - In my experience, even those people who get 'a lot' out of commercial sex don't get all that much and they seldom get 'enough'.

1 - Although I agreed with much in jm's post from which I quote above, #1 is a particularly blatant and clear example of the implicit a priori assumption that a man would not be interested in paying for sex unless he has a (probably serious) problem of some sort, something missing in his life.

2 - Imo, this is primarily true only for those who start with the assumption mentioned in my #1.

-Ww

[Cat_Ballou]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
...there is a considerable amount of uncomforting and frightening evidence that quite a large fraction of people, definitely the majority, are capable of incredible barbarism and savagery in the "right" ("wrong" would be more apt) circumstances, especially in cases involving a break down of normal standards of behavior by a large group of people. I have in mind things like wartime attrocities, behavior in riots and the like.

-Ww Yes, that is unqestionably true, but that is in reference to situations where there's been an overall breakdown (if not complete disappearance) of social order. This movie isn't dealing with that -- this is about the methodical destruction of an innocent woman as revenge for the acts of other women, who don't appear as characters in the movie, and whose actual behavior or motives are never shown: she's a symbolic sacrifice. These guys have been treated badly by women, and someone has to pay -- not because it will make anything better in anyway, but because it will make them feel... what?

[buddyyy]

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou
These guys have been treated badly by women, and someone has to pay -- not because it will make anything better in anyway, but because it will make them feel... what?

At the risk of taking the thread off topic - which I wouldn’t want to do because in fact I believe a lot of the hostility that frequently gets played out between a man and a woman (and vice versa) is in fact misdirected 'revenge' or 'hatred' born of acts committed or perceived to have been committed by someone other than person towards whom the hostility is expressed - but I think it is worthwhile to note that similar dysfunctional behaviors can been seen in many other contexts as well (such as the US invasion of Iraq, to mention one uncontroversial example.

[justlooking]

There are people on this board whose whole attitude toward commercial sex workers just reeks of revenge. I often get the feeeling, more revenge for the guys' perceived shortcomings in their lives (which they then can take out on people who they feel are even lower down socially than they are) than any explicit male/female kind of thing. It makes me sick.

[justlooking]

And here I was thinking, UG is finally back.

[buddyyy]

Originally posted by buddyyy

The only downside maintenance wise that I have experienced with tube systems is the fact that tubes do expire and need to be replaced. For some reason I am reluctant to just replace a single bad tube (assuming of course that it is about the same age as the others - rather than a victim or infant mortality)

Again at the risk of taking the thread off topic, I am somewhat disappointed that someone who actually knows something about electronics, like Justme, did not choose to disabuse me of the notion that it is preferable to replace more than just the tube that has failed.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by buddyyy
At the risk of taking the thread off topic - which I wouldn’t want to do because in fact I believe a lot of the hostility that frequently gets played out between a man and a woman (and vice versa) is in fact misdirected 'revenge' or 'hatred' born of acts committed or perceived to have been committed by someone other than person towards whom the hostility is expressed

This, in part, is what keeps the "wheel of karma" turning.

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou
this is about the methodical destruction of an innocent woman as revenge for the acts of other women, who don't appear as characters in the movie, and whose actual behavior or motives are never shown: she's a symbolic sacrifice. These guys have been treated badly by women, and someone has to pay -- not because it will make anything better in anyway, but because it will make them feel... what?

Since I did not see the movie, I am speaking mostly from ignorance (but when did that ever stop me?), but while I think that such "revenge for bad treatment at the hands of others" may happen quite often unconsciously (and possibly the movie was intended to point this out by making it more blatant), I suspect that relatively few men would do such a thing consciously and with premeditation, though I do not doubt that some few would.

-Ww

[justme]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
1 - Although I agreed with much in jm's post from which I quote above, #1 is a particularly blatant and clear example of the implicit a priori assumption that a man would not be interested in paying for sex unless he has a (probably serious) problem of some sort, something missing in his life.

2 - Imo, this is primarily true only for those who start with the assumption mentioned in my #1.

-Ww

You read too much into what I'm saying. I'm not assuming a deficiency of character, I'm assuming a deficiency of experience.

I'll answer the question for myself:

In pursuing commercial sex, I attempt to have reasonably enjoyable sex made convenient and without any emotional entanglements that may hurt myself or others. If I were involved with someone with whom I was having regular frequent sex, I would not bother with prostituion. What is lacking in my life that I am attempting to fill is regular sex.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justlooking
There are people on this board whose whole attitude toward commercial sex workers just reeks of revenge. I often get the feeeling, more revenge for the guys' perceived shortcomings in their lives (which they then can take out on people who they feel are even lower down socially than they are) than any explicit male/female kind of thing. It makes me sick.

Hmmm...interesting, jl. I agree of course, and this is one of the reasons that I dislike seeing guys beat themselves up so much over being hobbyists. All of the guilt and calling oneself sick, disgusting, pathetic, insane, contemptable and so forth is often justified on UG as being "realistic" (or "clear eyed") and/or as an essential component of controling one's own selfish impulses and behavior. However, imo, it is a very rare individual indeed who can completely contain these feelings about himself and not have them leak over into negative feelings about and (perhaps revenge motivated) actions towards the other people involved (i.e., the providers).

-Ww

[justme]

Ww - the character in that movie was clearly a sociopath.

I know you don't watch movies, but this one is particularly good (and views much more like a play than a movie). It's worth the two hours (or whatever).

[justme]

buddyyy -

I wasn't suggesting that you should replace your electronics (unless in doing so you want to give me what you've got now). I was talking to JL.

And even then I was joking.

If you have a stereo you're happy with, I think it's best to stop reading equipment revies and the like.

(And yes, I do advocate replacing tubes as a set, preferably matched)

[justme]

Of course, I would never presume to give advice to someone with a better stereo than myself.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme
You read too much into what I'm saying. I'm not assuming a deficiency of character, I'm assuming a deficiency of experience.

I did not mean to introduce any notions of character into the discussion or to assume that that is what you meant. A "deficiency of experience" is still a "problem" (as I called it) or "something missing" (as you put it). Would you someone me a similar question about why he/she goes art museums or likes to travel or enjoys reading light or serious literature or works out? It seems to me that the question assumes that hobbying is the fix for some problem and could not be simply one of the pleasures that life offers which one would be foolish to pass up.

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme
Ww - the character in that movie was clearly a sociopath.

I know you don't watch movies, but this one is particularly good (and views much more like a play than a movie). It's worth the two hours (or whatever).

A significant correction: I almost never watch TV except for news and baseball, but I do frequently go to movies, including completely vapid/silly pop culture ones that are doubtlessly worse than much of the stuff on TV.

I may be too serious, but I am not that serious.

-Ww

[justme]

Douglass Adams.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme
Douglass Adams.

Indeed, for example. Does his first name really have two s's, or is that a typo?

-Ww

[justme]

I really am not trying to load the question.

I've been trying to learn woodworking recently. I did it because I felt like what I currently accomplish professionally is intangible. I thought it would be nice to have a hobby in which I actually produced something material.

I don't think I am a bad person for not making things before, I just felt like a consistant outlet for manifesting my (limited) creativity was missing from my life (especially since I stopped studying math).

[justme]

His name should be spelled, Douglas.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme
I really am not trying to load the question.

I've been trying to learn woodworking recently. I did it because I felt like what I currently accomplish professionally is intangible. I thought it would be nice to have a hobby in which I actually produced something material.

OK, I don't want to try to force a meaning into your words that was not there, but I think it could be read that way, and more importantly, I think many people do look at hobbying with that sort of assumption planted deeply in their world view. E.g., "A whore is a bad thing to be and getting involved with one means that you are bad in some way too."

Answering the question the way you meant it, I would fall back on PJ's "It's the sex, stupid" theory as one of the better possible answers.

-Ww

[buddyyy]

Originally posted by justme
(And yes, I do advocate replacing tubes as a set, preferably matched)

I appreciate your advice on this.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme
His name should be spelled, Douglas.

Readers may think this subthread is a waste of time to write and read, but I think it is better than the audio equipment one! ;-)

-Ww

[buddyyy]

Originally posted by justme
Of course, I would never presume to give advice to someone with a better stereo than myself.

I know you wouldn't, which is why I asked for it.

[justme]

Ww - Presumably he's getting 'the sex, stupid' from his girlfriend.

For me, it's just about regular sex.

For others, it's more about variety of sex partners.

For other it's about the appearance of sex partners.

I'll rephrase the question. What do you suppose you are going to add to your life my purchasing sex.

Different people have different answers to this question. The answer to this question plays a big role in how we buy sex or whether it's healthy to be doing it at all.

[justme]

(Output tubes last a really long time and input tubes should last close to 'forever', so replacing tubes is often more of a manifestation of the compulsive need to tweak your system)

((Yes, I do believe that different tubes sound different))

[buddyyy]

OT (To be clear)

When you said as a set, were you referring to all of the output tubes, if it was in fact an output tube which failed, rather than all of the tubes (or I guess another alternative would be the replacement of all of the instances of the specific tube which has failed.)

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Hmmm...interesting, jl. I agree of course, and this is one of the reasons that I dislike seeing guys beat themselves up so much over being hobbyists. All of the guilt and calling oneself sick, disgusting, pathetic, insane, contemptable and so forth is often justified on UG as being "realistic" (or "clear eyed") and/or as an essential component of controling one's own selfish impulses and behavior. However, imo, it is a very rare individual indeed who can completely contain these feelings about himself and not have them leak over into negative feelings about and (perhaps revenge motivated) actions towards the other people involved (i.e., the providers).

Obviously (well, I guess it wasn't so obvious), I was talking about a different set of perceived shortcomings, mainly socioeconomic. You might have noticed that I don't perceive those shortcomings in myself much.

As for what you're talking about, I don't understand why anyone has to beat anyone else up just because he beats himself up. I guess I'm a rare individual.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme
I'll rephrase the question. What do you suppose you are going to add to your life by purchasing sex.

I do like that version better.

My answers are

1) sometimes just to satisfy horniness while traveling and unable to see any romantic sexual partner

or, more profoundly/generally and wrt the providers I see on a regular basis,

2) to make my life richer, more diverse and more interesting. (In important ways, sex with any particular woman is not a replacement for sex with any other woman, and the more of a personal relationship you have with her, the more true it is, at least for me.)

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justlooking
As for what you're talking about, I don't understand why anyone has to beat anyone else up just because he beats himself up.

I don't know if anyone really understands why, but you don't have to pay much attention to the world to see that it is terribly common. (Or would you disagree with that as an observation?)

-Ww

[justlooking]

I guess I'm too solopsistic to notice.

[justme]

For example, if you happened to own Quicksilver V4's, your tube compliment would be:

1-12FQ7 input
1-12BH7 driver
4-KT88 outputs

per amp or 2 each of the small tubes and 8 big tubes. I'd replace each type (both 12FQ7's, for example) as a matched set as they aged.

(And I'd replace the KT88's with EL34's... heh)

[justlooking]

That's another reason I don't deal with tubes. I know I'd enjoy it, but I have enough meaningless connoisseurship in my life already.

[justme]

Ww - I have no doubt that you are pursuing close to the best commercial strategy for you.

The point of my post was to question L101.

Usually I wouldn't even bother asking him, but he seems to be looking to the board for advice and I think it's important to know exactly what he's trying to do in order to give him the best recommendation.

3 why's, or something.

[justme]

Originally posted by justlooking
That's another reason I don't deal with tubes. I know I'd enjoy it, but I have enough meaningless connoisseurship in my life already.

Why do you speak so pejoritively about your connoisseurship? I think it betrays an attitude that is keeping you from truly enjoying your snobishness. Worse, you're encouraging others around here to think that their own connoisseurship is somehow 'meaningless'.

(You don't have to roll the tubes.)

((HAHAHAHAHA, I can't believe I actually typed that))

[buddyyy]

Thanks

I have the M-135 which comes with the EL-135's.

[justlooking]

Party at buddyyy's!

[jseah]

Originally posted by justlooking
Party at buddyyy's!

I can imagine the records that jl would bring..... ;)

[buddyyy]

Originally posted by justlooking
That's another reason I don't deal with tubes. I know I'd enjoy it, but I have enough meaningless connoisseurship in my life already.

If you were to enjoy it, it hardly seems that it would be meaningless.

Tubes are really not anything that require a lot of attention. I think this may be the first time I have really focused on it.

[buddyyy]

Originally posted by jseah
I can imagine the records that jl would bring..... ;)

I would be more interested in the strippers he might bring.

(Especially since I don't have a turntable.)

[justlooking]

Hey. I have a CD player. I buy CDs. I just prefer vinyl, that's all.

[buddyyy]

Originally posted by justlooking
Hey. I have a CD player. I buy CDs.

A true man of the people.

(jseah didn't say anything about your bringing CD's. I'm sure I would be interested in some of those as well as the strippers.)

[jseah]

Originally posted by justlooking
Hey. I have a CD player. I buy CDs. I just prefer vinyl, that's all.

he probably buys CD's just so he doesn't have to hear the stripper comments...

"records? what are those?"

or

"records? I remember my grandfather had some when I was a little girl"

[justlooking]

You guys are all confused. Lawyer's the one who would change the way he acts to influence the behavior of strippers, not me.

[VV]

With lots of money.


Sorry didn't have the time or patience to read past the first page or reply sooner so no offence if others have already offered this advice....


But always offer your phone number.

For a few reasons, but most importantly..... If she calls you, you've already hooked the big one... all you have to do is reel it in.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme
Why do you speak so pejoritively about your connoisseurship? I think it betrays an attitude that is keeping you from truly enjoying your snobishness. Worse, you're encouraging others around here to think that their own connoisseurship is somehow 'meaningless'.

I am almost, but not 100%, sure that this is a parody of the sort of things I say to jl about his hobbying.

-Ww

[justme]

Can you really say with complete certainty that you are not completely certain that I am parodying you.

OR

Isn't imitation the sincerest form of flatery?

[Wwanderer]

Now I am sure.

-Ww

[justme]

100%?

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme
100%?

Almost.

-Ww

[frodo]

Russians... has to be the Tender Trap.

Originally posted by lawyer101

The club that I have been visiting is not Lecafe. It is a similar club in appearnce to LeCafe(it's not as nice).

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by justlooking
Lawyer, you're approaching this from the completely wrong perspective for completely wrong (and in my opinion misguided) reasons. If you ever succeed, it'll be by accident.

JL,
What perspective should I be approaching it from? And why do you feel that my reasons are wrong?

[billyS]

Lawyer, if you notice jl keeps dittoing my posts. Stop being such a redass and read what I wrote. Then think about it. I'm just giving you some good advice here.

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by justme
What's so confusing?

You have a few people around here who seem to be extremely intelligent, discerning, and experienced. These posters constantly argue that UTR's and semi pro strippers offer the best commercial sex experience for some variety of reasons. These same posters, and others, also often claim that every stripper (with a very small set of exceptions) is available for some kind of illegal extra, and that 'most' will sleep with someone for money.

So you're Lawyer101, and you come to UG with almost no experience with prostitutes, but a decent amount of experience with strippers. Strippers are your commercial sex reality. But look, how fortuitous! Not only do strippers offer the best experience (which substantiates the bias you feel against prostitutes), but all of them are available (to someone). Well, hell, you're young and monied and have it together. If a bunch of middle aged guys can convince a stripper to sleep with them for money and without obligation, why can't you?


Lawyer101 strikes me as the kind of young, upwardly mobile professional that wants the 'best' of everything. So he wants the 'best' prostitution experience. The mistake he's making is in thinking that he shares the aesthetic values and priorities of the the people on this board that enjoy UTR's and semipros so very much.

If I were Lawyer101, I'd probably seriously think about what it is that I think is missing in my life that can be filled with paying someone to sleep with me for money.

What is it, exactly, that he hopes to get out of commercial sex?

In my experience, even those people who get 'a lot' out of commercial sex don't get all that much and they seldom get 'enough'.

I'll give you a background on my commercial sex expierences. I have no expierence with prostitutes. My level of expierence is hand jobs at peepshow clubs from strippers and blowjobs from strippers at bachelor parties. I would say that I almost have no expierence in the "real" commercial sex industry when dealing with a pay for play situation.

I just feel that based on what I have read from trusted posters, such as JL,Danger-Us, and WW that the sexual expierence that can be had with a stripper is better than one that can be had with a provider. Now, this was never directly said, but in my opinion it was implied. In another thread, JL had posted a link to a post from Slinky where he had said that he "hooked up" with a stripper and the sex was "real". He felt like he had "hooked up" with the girl at a bar because the sex did not feel like it was commercial. He expierenced what you guys refer to as the GFE(Girlfriend Expierence). This is the type of sex that I would want to have. If sex were to be mechanical in any way, I would not enjoy it. I'll guess that some providers are good actresses and can make you believe to some extent that the sex is not commercial(but acting can take the expierence so far). I think(enter assume here) that you would be able to tell the difference betwen "real" sex and "commercial" sex. This is why I would rather "score" a stripper than have sex with a provider. This is just my prefrence.

To make my point more valid, I would rather pay a stripper $2,000 that only slept with some customers for sex, rather than pay a provider(who slept with every guy) $300 for the same amount of time. I guess because I don't pay for play on a regular basis(as far as sex goes), I would want my expierence to be the best that it could possibly be. Im not saying that you can't have a great session with a provider, I'm just saying that its not for me(or at least I don't think it's for me).

This is just my opinon. I know you have more expierence than I do in the commercial sex industry, so I would like to hear who you would rather have sex with, a provider? or a stripper? and why? I have only heard one side of the story, so if you prefer providers over strippers, i would like to her what you have to say.

[BigMadM]

I love reading this forum.

I see a dancer once a month about.

She gives me all the sex I want, for good money, but refuses to give me a lap dance. Go figure. Shes too embarrassed she tells me to dance for me. Go figure.

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by justlooking
This is an example. If it's not gonna happen, it's not gonna happen. You just have to accept that.

I'm starting to understand that. "No" means "No"...:)

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by justme
Ww - Presumably he's getting 'the sex, stupid' from his girlfriend.

For me, it's just about regular sex.

For others, it's more about variety of sex partners.

For other it's about the appearance of sex partners.

I'll rephrase the question. What do you suppose you are going to add to your life my purchasing sex.

Different people have different answers to this question. The answer to this question plays a big role in how we buy sex or whether it's healthy to be doing it at all.

I just like the idea that its "no strings attached" sex. Promises aren't being made that will be broken. "Emotions" will not play a factor as both parties understand that this is "just" sex. Nothing else. Just good 'ol sex.

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by justlooking
You guys are all confused. Lawyer's the one who would change the way he acts to influence the behavior of strippers, not me.

This is true. This is something that I will try not to do again in
the future. Unfortunately, I think strippers can see right through you when you are "bending" the truth.

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by BigMadM
I love reading this forum.

I see a dancer once a month about.

She gives me all the sex I want, for good money, but refuses to give me a lap dance. Go figure. Shes too embarrassed she tells me to dance for me. Go figure.

BMM,
Are you kidding? or are you serious?
(sounds like an interesting story)..:)

[Casper]

I bet she has at least 2 cats .

[Cat_Ballou]

Originally posted by lawyer101
Unfortunately, I think strippers can see right through you when you are "bending" the truth. Gee, that is unfortunate...

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by lawyer101
I just feel that based on what I have read from trusted posters, such as JL,Danger-Us, and WW that the sexual expierence that can be had with a stripper is better than one that can be had with a provider.

I most definitely do not think that and apologize if I gave you that impression. I do think that there are some strippers who provide commercial sex experienes to a select (and the selection issue is an important one) few of their customers on the side and that these experiences are different from those typically available from providers. Different but not particularly better. Sometime, but not usually, I prefer to see such a stripper, but it is an issue of variety for me, not of quality. Others see it differently though.

-Ww

[BigMadM]

Originally posted by lawyer101
BMM,
Are you kidding? or are you serious?
(sounds like an interesting story)..:)


Why would I kid about this.
I have a feeling if she reads this, I wont be getting my bbbjtcnq anymore either.(but Ill still luv her, but Id love one lap dance in private)

[BigMadM]

The answer to this thread is simple.

One pursues a stripper, the same way he pursues any woman.

Why does her profession automatically put her in a different niche then other girls who work to feed their kids and pay their rent.


I dont know that much about strippers, but Ive met a few on a social level only, and they dont consider sex as any part of their career.

Like I said, I dont know much, and probably should have stayed away from this forum,(but its really enjoyable reading)but why are there no threads about how to pursue female office assitants, lawyers, physicians, or subway workers?

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by BigMadM
One pursues a stripper, the same way he pursues any woman.

I agree with that answer, but it is worth keeping in mind that it is really not a very useful one. I mean it is not as though we are all familiar with some single, simple and reliable way to pursue "any woman" either.

-Ww

[Cat_Ballou]

I don't think it is quite the same as pursuing any woman, because he's not seeking any kind of relationship with her, other than a brief sexual encounter (that's why he wants to pay her, from my reading of the thread).

(Granted, many men pursue non-pro women for the same reason, but they usually know better than to tell her that: if women often give sex in order to get love, men often say "I love you" in order to get sex. Lisa Kudrow has said that European men are more honest than American men, because when they say I love you, they qualify it: "I may not love you an hour from now, but I love you at this moment.")

[Harlot]

I have to agree with Cat. It's not the same thing at all. The only way it would be the same thing is if you met the woman outside of the stripclub environment. The club dynamics change everything, whether you're pursueing a relationship or a casual paid encounter. The nature of the stripper's job conditions her to block out the average guy's average attempt at picking her up. I think that a higher level of both honesty and directness needs to be established to even get a stripper's attention in the first place.

Lawyer, for what it's worth, I don't think your goal should ever be to "bend the truth" or pull one over on one of these girls. That's just fucked up. State your intentions in a straightforward, polite, and tactful way. Dress up your offer to make it seem more appealing. MARKET yourself just as she markets herself.

[Harlot]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
I agree with that answer, but it is worth keeping in mind that it is really not a very useful one. I mean it is not as though we are all familiar with some single, simple and reliable way to pursue "any woman" either.

-Ww

This is also very true. Although I do believe there's some basic guidelines and principles that work most of the time in getting a favorable response.

[pswope]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
I mean it is not as though we are all familiar with some single, simple and reliable way to pursue "any woman" either.

-Ww
the closest I've come to the universal woman magnet act is pasting a $1k gift certificate to Manolo Blahnik or Jimmy Choo on my forehead.

(shoes being the female equivalent of male serial sex)

[Harlot]

Why do we love shoes so damn much? It must be genetic.

[Cat_Ballou]

Originally posted by Harlot
Why do we love shoes so damn much? It must be genetic. I don't know what's wrong with me, because I don't have the shoe gene, or the shopping gene. If I didn't have a decent rack and a bunch of men trying to get into my pants, I'd be poised for a full-fledged gender crisis.

Harlot, welcome back. You were missed...

[Harlot]

Thanks, babe.

I agree with you on the gender crisis thing. If I didn't love looking pretty so much and being stared at then I'd be in big trouble.

[justlooking]

This thread doesn't deserve this, but a serious post.

IMO, there are two kinds of strippers who only very occassionally sleep with customers for money.

The first kind is the kind I always talk about, who will "date" one or two or three customers they particularly "like" and feel comfortable with, after they've gotten to know the customer pretty well.

Perhaps more common is the second kind, the kind Wwanderer and nuthin talk about. They'll do pay-for-play, on a fairly anonymous basis, only when they feel a monetary need to. Then, they'll accept the first best acceptable offer they get.

The thing about the second kind, from the perspective of this discussion, is that it almost doesn't matter how you raise it (as long as you're not insulting or scary about it). Because it depends more on the stripper's needs at the moment than it does on you. You just have to be there at the right time, and not be completely creepy.

The second kind of stripper who rarely sleeps with customers seems to be the kind lawyer is looking for. He's not looking to establish a LTR (as I now know "long term relationships" are abbreviated) the way people like me do with the first kind. He just wants, as billy put it, a "private whore" for the night. But for that, it's just the luck of the draw.

[justlooking]

One other thing I'd like to add about the "first kind" is that I'm not saying they have some policy they follow, such that it would be the customer's job to worm his way into their "affections" and then they'll "date" him. They might not even "know" they're willing to "date" customers. It just might be that an attractive enough offer will come at the right time, and they realize it might not be so bad with that particular offeror.

[buddyyy]

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou
I don't know what's wrong with me, because I don't have the shoe gene, or the shopping gene. If I didn't have a decent rack and a bunch of men trying to get into my pants, I'd be poised for a full-fledged gender crisis.


Originally posted by Harlot

I agree with you on the gender crisis thing. If I didn't love looking pretty so much and being stared at then I'd be in big trouble.

Perhaps that is part of what makes you so attractive to the misogynists on the board who want to get laid by someone they don't hate.

[Cat_Ballou]

Originally posted by buddyyy
Perhaps that is part of what makes you so attractive to the misogynists on the board who want to get laid by someone they don't hate. In terms of pure logic, isn't the only way a misogynist can get laid by someone he doesn't hate is for him to sleep with a man?

[justme]

Lawyer101-

You seem to want

1.) Convenient, immediately available sex
2.) No strings sex
3.) Emotional sex

It's not going to happen. The approach that JL seems to use is anything but convenient. The only way that you're going to get emotional sex (JL's stripper type 2) is to put some 'work' into the relationship. This is what some posters have meant by saying its the same approach you need to use with any other woman. That is, you need to invest some time and effort to come off as 'not that bad of an option' and get to the point where a woman will be willing to sell you sex that she has a little stake in.

By its very nature, covenient no strings attached sex will not be terribly organic. However, you might do well to consider an upscale agency. From what I've heard, they generally employ women that work considerbaly fewer sessions (customers) and tend to come from less desperate conditions than high volume pros.

[justme]

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou
In terms of pure logic, isn't the only way a misogynist can get laid by someone he doesn't hate is for him to sleep with a man?

Or a particularly manish woman, I suppose.

(Do misongynists hate women or what they perceive to be feminine qualities? I have no idea.)

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme

1.) Convenient, immediately available sex
2.) No strings sex
3.) Emotional sex
It's not going to happen.

Right, and very crisply stated too!

#3 is inconsistent with #2 and usually inconsistent with #1.

However, if you can find the right provider and establish a suitable arrangement with her over a few "dates", you can have a pretty good simulation of all three.

-Ww

[buddyyy]

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou
In terms of pure logic, isn't the only way a misogynist can get laid by someone he doesn't hate is for him to sleep with a man?

Originally posted by justme
Or a particularly manish woman, I suppose.

(Do misongynists hate women or what they perceive to be feminine qualities? I have no idea.)

Are sexual organs “probative” wrt gender?

Is it possible to hate anything but that which you perceive it to be?

Is everything that is not womanish, manish?

(To clarify the intent of my post - It was not my understanding that either Cat or Harlot where questioning the fact that they are woman, but rather noting that they were finding it difficult to identify with the popular contemporary beliefs about many of the qualities and characteristics of women. I was trying to suggest that perhaps such qualities were also the focus of a misogynist’s hatred. If that were the case such men could find such woman particularly attractive.)

((From a personal perspective a lot of what I find attractive about a woman is not her female qualities but rather her human qualities. To be sure I am attracted to other qualities, some of which may only be found in females, but many more of which are probably more accurately described as gender-centric. Personally, what I frequently find most attractive are human qualities as informed by that nature that I think of as female. Not that anyone should care.))

(((The relative importance that I place on each of each ‘class’ of qualities will vary based on my wants and expectations for the relationship.)))

((((If I were attracted to Cat or Harlot I am very confident it would not be because of any manish quality – nor can I say I am not.))))

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou
a decent rack and a bunch of men trying to get into my pants

Redundant.

-Ww

[Cat_Ballou]

Originally posted by justme
(Do misogynists hate women or what they perceive to be feminine qualities? I have no idea.) Hard to say, but once you're capable of hating the female half of the human race, what's a few effeminate men, give or take? You're already a sick motherfucker (and odds are good that mom has something to do with your deranged state, so how appropriate)...

Ww -- ROFL!

[BigMadM]

Originally posted by justlooking
. It just might be that an attractive enough offer will come at the right time, and they realize it might not be so bad with that particular offeror.

How true.

Timing, is everything.(and this goes for women with any profession)

[justlooking]

STRIPPER: [Long plaint about how much she needs money]

ME: Please don't take this as being creepy, because I really don't mean it that way, but you know, you could make a lot of money hanging out with me.

STRIPPER: I couldn't. I'd be taking advantage of you.

ME: Don't worry about that. You wouldn't be taking advantage of me. I'd be taking advantage of you.

[justlooking]

[This did not succeed]

[justlooking]

[Yet]

[BigMadM]

that was weak JL, I hope that wasnt your best rap
At least you could have told her lets discuss it over dinner.

[justlooking]

It went waaaaaaaaay downhill from there.

[BigMadM]

I hear ya, thats what makes the victories so sweet.

[Cat_Ballou]

Originally posted by justlooking
It went waaaaaaaaay downhill from there. Really? I thought she was just holding out and making a display of saying No, so that you could talk her into it. (Otherwise you might think she was slutty, or something. Women learn this early, regardless of profession.)

[justlooking]

It turned out to be much more than a display.

On her terms, she really would be taking advantage of me.

[BigMadM]

Originally posted by justlooking
On her terms, she really would be taking advantage of me.

Just think like me, oh, the sacrifices we have to make.

[justlooking]

(And let me tell you, I thought I was in when we both independently chose the same passage from the Symposium as our favorite thing in any of Plato's dialogues.)

[justlooking]

Originally posted by BigMadM
Just think like me, oh, the sacrifices we have to make.

Paying someone just to hang out with you is more of a sacrifice than either of us would be willing to make.

[Cat_Ballou]

Originally posted by justlooking
(And let me tell you, I thought I was in when we both independently chose the same passage from the Symposium as our favorite thing in any of Plato's dialogues.) I don't know if that's cute, spooky, or just plain weird. I mean, what are the odds?

[justlooking]

That's what I figured. You'd think, after that, how could she not let me pay her money to fuck her?

[Cat_Ballou]

Originally posted by justlooking
That's what I figured. You'd think, after that, how could she not let me pay her money to fuck her? Oh JL, now you're torturing me, LOL...

[jseah]

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou
Oh JL, now you're torturing me, LOL...

said as Cat starts searching her bookshelf for the dusty copy of Plato's Republic..........

[justlooking]

I'll tell you this: it wasn't in the Republic.

[justlooking]

I mean, who'd really feel like talking about the Republic at a sex club?

[Cat_Ballou]

Originally posted by justlooking
I mean, who'd really feel like talking about the Republic at a sex club? Babe, it's a minor miracle that you found someone to talk about Plato with in a sex club, much less your particular favorite in his bibliography... Sadly, I confess that I have never read his Symposium, or if I did, the memory is lost... (At least give me points for not lying about it.)

[buddyyy]

Don't feel bad Cat - I never went to Plato's either.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou
Babe, it's a minor miracle that you found someone to talk about Plato with in a sex club, much less your particular favorite in his bibliography...

This just shows that you really HAVEN'T ever been to a strip club.

[howardnotstern]

Originally posted by justlooking
This just shows that you really HAVEN'T ever been to a strip club. with jl

[Cat_Ballou]

Originally posted by justlooking
This just shows that you really HAVEN'T ever been to a strip club. Didn't I already say that?

(And Howard, going to a strip club with JL is just WAY too much to hope for, LOL...)

[justlooking]

Yeah, jeez, I was SAYING you said so.

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by Harlot

Lawyer, for what it's worth, I don't think your goal should ever be to "bend the truth" or pull one over on one of these girls. That's just fucked up. State your intentions in a straightforward, polite, and tactful way. Dress up your offer to make it seem more appealing. MARKET yourself just as she markets herself.

My intentions weren't to "bend" the truth. When I had realized that a "pay for play" situation wasn't going to take place, this is when I tried to say something that I thought would have changed her mind. It didn't work, so I don't think that I will try that again.

From your point of view, what could I have done to "dress up" my offer to make it more appealing? How could I "market" myself to her?

[justme]

Be attractive to her.

[justme]

There's this world that JL inhabits that's filled with really intellectual boho strippers. It's obviously north of Houston.

(boho, yes. intellectual....)

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by justlooking

The second kind of stripper who rarely sleeps with customers seems to be the kind lawyer is looking for. He's not looking to establish a LTR (as I now know "long term relationships" are abbreviated) the way people like me do with the first kind. He just wants, as billy put it, a "private whore" for the night. But for that, it's just the luck of the draw.

Yes. That is what I am looking for. Its not so much that I would say that I wasn't looking for a LTR. I would still go down to see her at the club. I would still want to stay in some type of contact
with her. I would just say that "paying for play" with her may only occur for one night. I don't know if I would do it again.

I may not have an understanding of what you mean by LTR, but this is my "take".

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by justme
That is, you need to invest some time and effort to come off as 'not that bad of an option' and get to the point where a woman will be willing to sell you sex that she has a little stake in.


This is what I'm starting to understand. Maybe had I waited a longer period of time, the outcome may have been different. I think she had a good understanding of who I was as we had discussed many different topics during our conversations. I think I may have asked too quickly. But it is starting to make sense that if I want a stripper that doesn't "sleep" with many customers, that i will have to put more time and effort into the "chase".

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by justlooking
[This did not succeed]

So JL doesn't allways suceed...:)

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by justlooking
[Yet]

Opps. I missed this post.
(in refrence to my above post)

[Harlot]

Originally posted by lawyer101
This is what I'm starting to understand. Maybe had I waited a longer period of time, the outcome may have been different. I think she had a good understanding of who I was as we had discussed many different topics during our conversations. I think I may have asked too quickly. But it is starting to make sense that if I want a stripper that doesn't "sleep" with many customers, that i will have to put more time and effort into the "chase".

I don't think I would have had to know a customer well in order for me to decide to sleep with him. His needs and wants just would have had to be in sync with mine. For example, I'm broke, or I have some looming large expense, or for whatever reason I could use some extra money, but I don't want some dude calling me all the time to chat and whatnot. I might want to take up some random out-of-towner on a pay-for-play offer for one night. I'd probably never have to see him again if I didn't want to. Now a pay-for-play relationship is a different story. You'd be wise to take JL's sagely advice on that one.

[BigMadM]

Thats why I am here Harlot. I wont call you and chat it up.
Just call me when youre broke, and book that 4 hour gig.

[Harlot]

Originally posted by justme
Be attractive to her.

In more than the obvious physical sense (though you may be aesthetically gifted as well, which is even better) of course. The key in acquiring what you seem to be looking for is to conduct yourself not as if you're girlfriend shopping (because then we're just going to relegate you to all those other leagues of nameless, faceless customers who try to do just that) but as if you're just a confident, well-mannered guy whose horny, has money to spend, and wants to get laid in as much of a no-muss, no-fuss way as possible.

[Harlot]

Originally posted by BigMadM
Thats why I am here Harlot. I wont call you and chat it up.
Just call me when youre broke, and book that 4 hour gig.

Four hours?!

I'm sorry, I just don't think that sex should ever last more than thirty minutes. By that point I'm sweaty, tired, and have probably cum as much as I want to or am going to. Time to roll a joint and go to bed.
(Noone can accuse me of trying to promote myself after having made that comment.)

[howardnotstern]

Originally posted by justme
There's this world that JL inhabits that's filled with really intellectual boho strippers. It's obviously north of Houston.

(boho, yes. intellectual....)

no. the harmony was on church street south of houston st.

[justme]

Harlot, you seem to be describing a strategy for the first kind of stripper that JL describes (ultimately, though, it seems that all such strategies seem to boil down to: right place, right time). And that's what I meant when I said 'be attractive'.

HnS - Better not let C9 see that post.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Harlot
I don't think I would have had to know a customer well in order for me to decide to sleep with him. His needs and wants just would have had to be in sync with mine. For example, I'm broke, or I have some looming large expense, or for whatever reason I could use some extra money, but I don't want some dude calling me all the time to chat and whatnot. I might want to take up some random out-of-towner on a pay-for-play offer for one night. I'd probably never have to see him again if I didn't want to. Now a pay-for-play relationship is a different story. You'd be wise to take JL's sagely advice on that one.

That was my point yeseterday.

This is the "second kind".

As I said, this depends entirely on being in the right place at the right time. It almost doesn't matter how you present it.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by justme
Harlot, you seem to be describing a strategy for the first kind of stripper that JL describes (ultimately, though, it seems that all such strategies seem to boil down to: right place, right time). And that's what I meant when I said 'be attractive'.

Ooops. Sorry.

[justlooking]

(It is the second rather than the first kind, though.)

[justlooking]

I guess it's north of Houston, but south of Houston.

[justme]

Originally posted by justlooking
(It is the second rather than the first kind, though.)

Ooops. Sorry.

[seanc]

I have dated a few of the most gorgeous girls who dance at the GGR (Eve, KC & Priscilla). I pursued Eva for months and finally went to London on a vacation with her. Pursued KC for only 2 weeks and had the 'pleasure' of her company whenever she came to NJ. Finally with Priscilla, we settled for a weekend together in a ***** hotel in East Brunswick, NJ and had the time of my life.

Cost for my crazy pursuits, you don't want to know what with airline tickets, ***** hotels and non stop shopping at the malls, it ran to $$,$$$.

If you have the money, they have their price, only takes time.

[BigMadM]

Im still reading this, and I still havent learned much.
Im ready to go hit Club Babylon try out some newly learned skills.
I can tell you guys what doesnt work.

A while back, I had another opportunity to pay and fuck a dancer.
Like a similar set up-it was done through someone we both know.
Id love to post her real name, but I have enough problems because of my posting of reviews, so Ill just call her Diedre.(I like this name)
I get the call, a woman many of us know on this board, and she knows a girl that dances at and wants to try to supplement her income doing a few outcalls.

I get Diedres number and make the call.
D-Hello
Me-Hi Diedre, my name is Mike, and gave me your number, I hope this is an ok time for you to talk, or should....(she interrupts me)
D-no, no, not at all, how are you, told me about you and I told her its ok to call me anytime.
Me-Thanx, Im fine, and Im glad to meet you, even if its only by phone.
D-chuckling
Me-I called because I wanted to see if you wanted to get together
D-Thats fine
Me-Where do you live?
D-I can meet you anywhere in Long Island, thats not a problem.
Me-What is the fee?
D-Uh(hesitating), I really didnt talk about that with .
Me-Neither did I, but Im sure we can work something out that is beneficial for both of us
D-Uh(hesitating again), I guess you have to tell me when and where
Me-Im flexible, but I need to know what price and for how long
D-Uh(hesitating), how long do you want
Me-Whatever, how about 3-4 hours any late morning
D-ok, 4 hours is like, uh.......1000.
Me-Wow, thats alot of money.
D-well, you want alot of time
Me-I was thinking more along the lines of 750.
D-Uh...thats good.
Me-I hate to ask this, but I have to know what type of session I can expect.
D-what do you mean.
Me-acronyms
D-What do you mean
Me-you know, things like do you use a condom for bjs, is everything included in that price
D-uh.....................(she didnt say anything)
D-Listen, let me get back to you. Give me your cell



And, that was it.
She didnt call me back, and I called her and she said she changed her mind.
She wasnt at all prepared to be a prostitute.
Maybe if I would have wined and dined her, maybe I could have had real, old fashiioned lovin.
Dont know, but I do know thats not the way to pursue a dancer that doesnt sleep with customers.
Ill keep trying.

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by Harlot
I don't think I would have had to know a customer well in order for me to decide to sleep with him. His needs and wants just would have had to be in sync with mine. For example, I'm broke, or I have some looming large expense, or for whatever reason I could use some extra money, but I don't want some dude calling me all the time to chat and whatnot. I might want to take up some random out-of-towner on a pay-for-play offer for one night. I'd probably never have to see him again if I didn't want to. Now a pay-for-play relationship is a different story. You'd be wise to take JL's sagely advice on that one.

So, time isn't an issue? You could meet a customer for the first time and agree to "sleep" with him. But, as you said that is all based on your needs. What if you didn't need money(I know everyone needs money, but you get the point), but you had a regular that you were seeing for 6 months and he decides to ask you to "sleep' with him for money? Your customer isn't a bad guy and you are fairly confident that he is not a psycho. Does the fact that you know him for 6 months play a factor in your decision to want to "sleep" with him or not?

[lawyer101]

Originally posted by justme
(ultimately, though, it seems that all such strategies seem to boil down to: right place, right time

This is what I'm starting to learn.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by lawyer101
So, time isn't an issue? You could meet a customer for the first time and agree to "sleep" with him. But, as you said that is all based on your needs. What if you didn't need money(I know everyone needs money, but you get the point), but you had a regular that you were seeing for 6 months and he decides to ask you to "sleep' with him for money? Your customer isn't a bad guy and you are fairly confident that he is not a psycho. Does the fact that you know him for 6 months play a factor in your decision to want to "sleep" with him or not?

Type 1 v. Type 2.

I think she's saying she might have thought about sleeping with a regular for cash if she was comfortable enough with him to have an ongoing pay-for-play "relationship". Because the regular (unlike the random transient guy) wasn't going to just disappear after their session.

But the way it sounds to me, it might have been too awkward to do a one-night one-off with a regular, because the regular was always going to be around reminding her of what they did. Or maybe it's just logistically impossible to do a one-night one-off with a regular, because she could never have been sure that the regular would want to stop after one night, and he'd always be there asking for more. So either way, I think she's saying that the kind of thing you seem to be looking for could only have worked with someone she didn't know.

But obviously, never having been a stripper and never having been Harlot, I can't know for sure.

[greyfox]

Originally posted by BigMadM
.
She wasnt at all prepared to be a prostitute.


What percentage of semi-pros bring their own condoms?

[justlooking]

That's one of the best ways to know they're really semi-pros.

(Too bad we've let THAT cat out of the bag.)

[Cat_Ballou]

Originally posted by justlooking
That's one of the best ways to know they're really semi-pros.

(Too bad we've let THAT cat out of the bag.) Not necessarily. A lot of women I know, myself included, learned a long time ago, at a very young age, that when en route to any kind of sexual assignation, it's a good idea to be prepared. Otherwise, you're just going to have to deal with it later, or risk doing something unbelievably stupid...

It might be a good way of knowing that they're stupid semi-pros, however...

[Cat_Ballou]

Although come to think of it, I also remember hearing some women say that they don't go prepared, because it makes them look slutty in the man's eyes. So, seeming to be unprepared could, for the more cynical amongst us, be seen as just another calculated act, for the client's benefit. In which case they're not stupid, I suppose, but someone's still gonna have to go get some condoms, and that's just a drag...

[justlooking]

Most of the strippers I see don't bring condoms with them.

Maybe it's because -- especially on our first "dates" -- they're still hoping against hope that they won't have to have sex with me.

I can tell you a story about a stripper I know. She'd been "dating" me long-term, which as far as I knew was an extreme rarity for her. But at one point she decided she needed some quick money, so for the first time ever she accepted the offer of some transient businessman to meet outside the club for cash. She said to me afterward that it was a good thing she remembered to stop off and buy some condoms on her way to the session, because he didn't have any.

My point being that she never (as far as I knew) thought she had to bring condoms to our "dates" (and not because we don't use them). She clearly perceived that her session with that guy was different, and that it entailed professional obligations on her part that our "dates" don't.

[Cat_Ballou]

To me, whether it's commerical sex or not is irrelevant -- if you know you're likely to be having sex with someone, be prepared for the possibility. In this day and age, if you are sexually active in any capacity, having birth control and/or condoms is a given, if you're smart. At the minimum, it should be discussed when the date (or "date") is arranged, so that there's no issue about it when you're ready to get on with the main event.

But, it's not at all surprising to me, either, that men are going to view a woman's preparedness on this score as "proof" of something else about her, since it's always been that way. What could (and should) be viewed as a smart woman gauging reality and taking responsibility for her own health and welfare will, by many men, be viewed as "proof" that she sleeps around, with all the implicit judgment that comes with that assumption...

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou
But, it's not at all surprising to me, either, that men are going to view a woman's preparedness on this score as "proof" of something else about her, since it's always been that way. What could (and should) be viewed as a smart woman gauging reality and taking responsibility for her own health and welfare will, by many men, be viewed as "proof" that she sleeps around, with all the implicit judgment that comes with that assumption...

Well duh! The explanation is simple. Most guys assume that there is no such thing as a "smart" woman.

[BigMadM]

I just recently met a CL girl.
She came to the room totally unprepared.
I looked at her, and said,"you know why were together, why didnt you come prepared?", I said it in a nice soft way, with a smile.
No particular reason she said, she figured shed buy them in the hotel. Ok with me.

[justlooking]

Cat, I think the difference is that if you're a non-pro girl going on a non-pro date, you bring condoms with you because you WANT the sex to happen.

If you're a non-pro girl going on a semi-pro "date", probably you'd like any excuse in the world not to end up having sex.

[Cat_Ballou]

Originally posted by BigMadM
I just recently met a CL girl.
She came to the room totally unprepared.
I looked at her, and said,"you know why were together, why didnt you come prepared?", I said it in a nice soft way, with a smile.
No particular reason she said, she figured shed buy them in the hotel. Ok with me. Glad to hear it was okay with you BMM, but she still doesn't sound too bright, IMHO. I wonder how she'd have reacted if you'd come unprepared, cash-wise...

"Most guys assume that there is no such thing as a "smart" woman."

I don't buy that, PJ -- I think a lot of men are intimidated by smart women, and dislike them for many reasons (not the least of which is that she may be smarter than he is), but assume that they don't exist? That's just macho posturing. And a man who actually believes that, much less says it out loud, is a Big Twit Walking, and frankly, I can't be bothered with him. Life is just too short for such nonsense.

No, I think it has more to do with exactly what I've mentioned before, here and elsewhere: I think a lot of men would rather delude themselves that if she's unprepared, it means she's at least relatively sexually inexperienced (i.e. hasn't slept with a lot of men, which makes her "better" than a woman who has? Because why?). The extent to which men value inexperience in a woman, even as they're planning to fuck her brains out, has never made any sense to me, and just seems antidiluvian, particularly if he's planning to put as much distance as possible between himself and her, as soon as the deed is done. I suppose if you're considering marrying her, it's a different story (though I'm still not sure why), but in any case, that's not what we're talking about here.

And as I've said before, women know all of this. Pro or non-pro, it doesn't matter: we learn very early on that we're going to be judged harshly on the numbers game, and that's why we pretend to be clueless, and make a show of seeming vaguely reluctant, and not saying what we like (especially if it's out of the realm of pure vanilla) and show up unprepared, and it's especially why we lie about how many partners we've had. To the men we sleep with, to doctors, to researchers studying sexual mores, you name it. This stuff starts in junior high (and BTW, I completely acknowledge that women frequently judge each other just as harshly, and early on, probably more so, because of the vicious nature of high school cliquedom), and if you were the girl who got labeled "trampy," what you actually did or didn't do with anybody quickly became irrelevant. There's no way to fight that stuff. Girls change schools over shit like this, believe you me, because they're rendered so miserable by a label that everyone seems to feel is a definitive statement about her, her moral core, and her intrinsic value.

So, it's a question of survival. Even if she never considers it consciously or specifically, there isn't a woman walking who doesn't know that once the Slut tag gets attached to her, she's never going to shake it, no matter what else she accomplishes in her life. After curing cancer and bringing peace to the Middle East, she'll pick up the New York Times on her way to Oslo and read the headline: "Loose Woman Wins double Nobel." (Since the Times eschews words like "slut.") And God forbid if her sexual history comes out when she's trying to, say, gain custody of her children in an ugly divorce, even if she has conducted that history in such a way that it has zero affect on her children. The fact that she has the history at all makes her suspect as a fit parent, in many people's eyes, no matter how many whores the children's father has put through graduate school.

Having said all of that, of course, I do recognize that there are actual, inexperienced women out there, LOL. But by the time they get to CL and start making "dates," they are much fewer in number than you think. IMHO. And JL, if she's that conflicted about her "date" that she "forgets" the obvious, she shouldn't be going on the date. (And one can only hope, for her sake, that her "date" is as understanding as BMM.) And, it still doesn't mean she wasn't the sexual mascot of Fleet Week, for all anyone knows. She's sure not going to tell you...

But then, what do I know? I'm just a woman, after all.

;-)

[buddyyy]

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou

The extent to which men value inexperience in a woman, even as they're planning to fuck her brains out, has never made any sense to me, and just seems antidiluvian, particularly if he's planning to put as much distance as possible between himself and her, as soon as the deed is done.

'Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of a small mind"

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou

"Loose Woman Wins double Nobel.' ...



Sounds hot - do you have a link to her WEB site?

[Cat_Ballou]

Originally posted by buddyyy
'Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of a small mind"
There's that small head, doing the thinking again...

You know, an alien from another planet could come to earth, read boards such as this one, look around at the general state of things, and plausibly wonder, "How did the male half of this species come to be so dominant, and where in the world do they ever find the time?"

A few of us who are already here sometimes wonder about this...

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou
"Most guys assume that there is no such thing as a "smart" woman."

I don't buy that, PJ -- I think a lot of men are intimidated by smart women, and dislike them for many reasons (not the least of which is that she may be smarter than he is), but assume that they don't exist? That's just macho posturing. And a man who actually believes that, much less says it out loud, is a Big Twit Walking, and frankly, I can't be bothered with him. Life is just too short for such nonsense.

Okay Cat, looks like I'm going to have to go back to the hand signals. Either that or find the damn irony smiley.

I guess I understand jl's quest for "freshness" and a non-pro experience, but I don't really agree with him. As Wwanderer frequently notes, my theory of commercial sex is summed up in the phrase "Its the sex stupid". I have been fortunate to run into a number of women in this business that have great skills and technique in the bedroom and who seem to really enjoy what they are doing. (If I'm deluded, I'm a willing participant in the delusion.) Sex with them is far better than even my fondest memories of many awkward girlfriend experiences of my youth.

I don't have the time, the opportunity, or candidly the inclination to "woo" (?sp) an amateur. And from what I’ve read of the strippers and CL ladies, there seems to be a certain element of wooing involved there. When I have the opportunity to schedule a visit with a lady, I prefer it to come off with as little surprises (unpleasant) as possible. That may sound a tad clinical to some, but then again I don’t think I’d enjoy hang-gliding either.

[Cat_Ballou]

Originally posted by pjorourke
Okay Cat, looks like I'm going to have to go back to the hand signals. Either that or find the damn irony smiley.

I don't have the time, the opportunity, or candidly the inclination to "woo" (?sp) an amateur. And from what I’ve read of the strippers and CL ladies, there seems to be a certain element of wooing involved there. When I have the opportunity to schedule a visit with a lady, I prefer it to come off with as little surprises (unpleasant) as possible. That may sound a tad clinical to some, but then again I don’t think I’d enjoy hang-gliding either. I knew you were kidding, PJ, but I offered up that particular comment for certain posters who are Big Twits Walking, spewing contempt for women all over the place, and who need to hear it.

It's very funny, because I could draw flow a chart, starting with my first (non-commercial) experience off CL, when all I was doing was trying to get over a schmuck/bastard (who probably lurks here, and has probably already figured out who I am, LOL) who'd used my heart for target practice. Tracing my evolution from that point to now, and from non-commercial to semi-pro (or whatever I am; I'd say I'm well past amateur status, but as JL notes elsewhere, I'm not a true pro) I'd have to say that I really don't require the wooing I once did, to feel comfortable moving forward. When I post on CL now, and get the usual bottlenecking avalanche of ******, I'm much more inclined to make contact with men who are clear about what they want, read the post thoroughly and give me enough information to say "Okay, he's for real," and just get on with it, and leave the iffier and more demanding ******s for later, if I answer them at all. (A lot of the men on CL are "non-pros" too, and also require some wooing and hand-holding, which can be fun -- depends on the man and how well he writes -- but can also be a royal pain in the ass.)

I knew I was seriously in love with a man when I was willing to take up hang-gliding for him, but luckily, he dumped me before I had to make good on the promise...

[Harlot]

Great posts, Cat.

While in general I think what you've said in regards to the "slut" label is true, I myself have always felt a bit of pride when discussing all my sexual exploits with people, including new boyfriends. I don't embellish or over dramatize, I'm just honest and I like to talk about the things that I've done. I sort of enjoy being thought of as the crazy experienced one who'll try anything once, and I like to challenge the notion that a relationship with a girl like me is better kept as a non-serious, non-commital fling thing. (I firmly believe that once I find The One I can be perfectly happy as a one-man slut.)
Honestly, I'm more embarrassed about the educational path I chose than how many people I've slept with. Who cares? I can't even believe how important this is to some people, or how much stress it can cause in relationships.

This is of course how I feel today, how I felt in hight school was a different story. You'll have a pretty miserable four years being labeled as the school skank. Sometimes all it takes is one asshole who you hooked up with (or didn't hook up with) at a drunken party making one stupid comment to the wrong people. My best friend in high school actually did change schools over this very situation.

[Cat_Ballou]

Thanks, Harlot. You know, if you and I ever teamed up, I bet we could rule Manhattan, LOL. You can do your stripper thing (because we know how they love those visuals), and I'll do my...

I'm very much like you, in that I've never been shy about talking about my sex life, and I've found that it's very effective to just behave as I believe: that I have done absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. And like you, I also believe that if I find the right man for me, I'd be very happy to just rock his world, and no one else's. The operative words are "right man." If I don't find him, then I'll just stay single, thank you. I'm older than you, and I'm watching a lot of my single female peers entering something not quite akin to panic mode, but close, and I'm the one who keeps reminding them that there is no worse fate I can imagine than an unhappy marriage, entered into, at least in part, out of desperation. Yeah, loneliness sucks, but not as much as sharing a bed with the wrong person for the rest of your life. Not only are you unhappy, but if you take your vows seriously (and if I ever do marry, you can be damn sure that I'm going to take those vows seriously), other doors are closed to you.

Of course, now the "right man" also has to be secure enough to deal with this part of my life, and I was already having trouble finding men who could deal with my "pre-pro" life (amongst other things, like my intelligence -- I bet you get that too), so I'm not exactly holding my breath on this score.

An interesting thing about the Slut label, which I've tested: it's not just about numbers. Whenever I've pointed out to someone that, technically speaking, I should qualify, I hear stuff like, "Oh, but you're different, it's not the same thing." And for the life of me, the only reason I can think of is that I don't conduct myself in a way that allows for that kind of judgment. I think people instinctively know that I'm just not going to kowtow to such bullshit, nor am I going to suffer in silence. I'll be in their face about it and challenging all their assumptions, and in the end, it's an argument I'm very likely to win. I've said it before, that Eleanor Roosevelt was 100% right when she said:

No one can humiliate you without your permission.

[Harlot]

here, here.

I get the "Oh, you're different" thing a lot when I talk to people about being a stripper. I hate it. It's insulting.
I don't want to be the exception to the generalization, I don't want people to infer that I'm better than the other girls who do the same thing.
The truth is, in most ways I was exactly like the other girls I worked with. Most of the customers (and most of my friends as well) were just too ignorant to realize it. I didn't want to hear things like, "You're too good for this place." I felt like they were insulting my decision to earn a living in a somwhat unconventional and controversial manner. It was a choice I've never been ashamed of, I don't like to feel like I should be.

You offer good advice about not marrying the wrong person for the wrong reasons. My problem is a deathly fear of lonliness. I can't stand it, even for a short time. I need to be in an intimate relationship constantly to avoid this. I wish it wasn't that way, I probably would fare a lot better in my life.

[BigMadM]

Originally posted by Cat_Ballou
I knew I was seriously in love with a man when I was willing to take up hang-gliding for him, but luckily, he dumped me before I had to make good on the promise...


I knew I was in love when I gave up Sunday football on TV, and let her drag me shopping. I solved my problem, I married her and gave her my credit card. Were both happier now.

I really enjoy reading this stuff. Interesting posts.

[Captain Kirk]

Originally posted by buddyyy
'Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of a small mind"
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do." Emerson