Higher mileage during Lap dances

[ExLS]

When I was started going to Strip clubs(In various states), I usually got air dances. In the last 3-4 years, the mileage in these dances has went drastically up. There has always been exceptions to this. Some dancers will just go the extra mile because they want to or others will not go there no matter how much, but as a whole dancers will go there(BJ, F/S, etc) any thoughts why this is happening? Is the economy THAT bad in the country? Has it the competition for clients become that firece? Are some dancers THAT deseparate for money? I am just curious. Where I live now, more than half will give me an extra service without the surcharge. THOUGHTS???

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Latino Stud
Is the economy THAT bad in the country?

Yes.

Originally posted by Latino Stud
Has it the competition for clients become that firece?

Yes.

Originally posted by Latino Stud
Are some dancers THAT deseparate for money?

Yes.

Originally posted by Latino Stud
THOUGHTS???

I think this is the inevitable culmination of the evolution that started once strip clubs switched from primarily having stage shows to primarily selling one-on-one interactions between strippers and customers (in the form of lap or table dances). Despite what "clean" strippers like to believe, once you go one-on-one you are out of the realm of selling "entertainment" and into the realm of selling "sexual services." And once you're selling "sexual services", it becomes inevitable that (a) some strippers are going to start selling really satisfying ones instead of lame ones and (b) customers are going to demand that. Sort of like a reverse Gresham's Law for strip clubs: "good" lapdances drive out the bad, and extras drive out lap dances.

[Slinky Bender]

Heh, not even in reverse: "bad" dancers drive out "good" dancers. (and if any dancer is worth more than her face value, she's likely to get hoarded).

[pswope]

for most it's a mileage thing.

[justlooking]

Yeah, but from the service providers' perspective, "most" is enough.

[pswope]

Its Darwinism at its best.

[ExLS]

I would like to hear from danielle, your thoughts since you are the only stripper that post here

[billyS]

Originally posted by Latino Stud
I would like to hear from danielle, your thoughts since you are the only stripper that post here
Ceasar. Where have you been? Daneille is not the only stripper here. I'm surprised you didn't recognize the person posting as Sinful7. Go look at the New York Classifieds to refresh your memory.
(actually I guess she is not a stripper, but a Sexual Entertainer)
.
.
.
Now that I think about it, out of all the guys who revewed her in the old XDreams thread, the worst review she ever got was from Ceasar, and that wasn't really a bad one, more like luke warm.

[justlooking]

Don't forget Dawn (unless she's outta here) and Magnifique (although I guess she's kind of sporadic).

[billyS]

Originally posted by justlooking
Don't forget Dawn and Magnifique (I guess they're kind of sporadic).
True. I wish they both would post more. Just as Kimmie, Greekgirl, Samamnath/April and Sexywhore have contributed much to this board from a providers POV, we like getting comments from other professionals as well. The big difference in this board as opposed to others (ie ***) is that the ladies here really contribute their thoughts as opposed to just posting their dates. Slinky gets credit for that.
BTW I really miss Evegirl.

jl if by Dawn you mean Grant, I don't think she was booted, she wasn't really making trouble, just defending herself against anthony2. She wasn't playing those games, posing as a guy to post phonie reveiws. She was open about who she is.

[justlooking]

I didn't think she was booted. I thought she might have gotten disgusted.

[Casper]

Originally posted by slinkybender
Heh, not even in reverse: "bad" dancers drive out "good" dancers. (and if any dancer is worth more than her face value, she's likely to get hoarded).

Still have that ticket from GGR uh.

[Wwanderer]

I do not go to NYC area strip clubs very often (once per decade?), but if you travel around the country, there are huge variations in the typical mileage you get in different cities. As far as I can tell, it is true today, and it has certainly been true in the past. I am fairly sure that these geographical variations are due to differences in local laws and, more importantly, the degree to which local LE is interested in enforcing them. So, while the economy and competition may well be the explanation for improved mileage in NYC clubs, another possibility to consider is some change in the level or focus of LE activity.

-Ww

[theword]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
I do not go to NYC area strip clubs very often (once per decade?), but if you travel around the country, there are huge variations in the typical mileage you get in different cities. As far as I can tell, it is true today, and it has certainly been true in the past. I am fairly sure that these geographical variations are due to differences in local laws and, more importantly, the degree to which local LE is interested in enforcing them. So, while the economy and competition may well be the explanation for improved mileage in NYC clubs, another possibility to consider is some change in the level of focus of LE activity.

-Ww

It's true -- in NYC Giuliani was a real bastard about the clubs. Some closed and the mileage went way down in the rest. It's a little better now but you still have to go to underground events to get a good hands-on lap dance. LE seems less interested in ferreting out the underground stuff these days though.

[Casper]

But at least you have easier access to a Disney store.

[theword]

Originally posted by Casper
But at least you have easier access to a Disney store.

Who gives better mileage, Mickey or Minnie Mouse?

Or is that just a goofy question?

[Casper]

Snow White blows them all away.

[Danielle]

Originally posted by Latino Stud
I would like to hear from danielle, your thoughts since you are the only stripper that post here

My thoughts on this subject would really just be reiterations of comments I've made on other threads.
Basically, shit sucks for someone like me who gives a fair lap dance and who wants to leave it at that. Because they'll always be some other girl whose willing to take it further for the same price and who may even be better looking.
In my defense, I think that my lap dances, while they're probably not considered "high mileage" by too many people, are very engaging. By this I mean that I truly enjoy dancing and I think it comes through in what I do. I look like I'm having fun because I probably am. I make a lot of eye contact and really try to bring the person into what I'm doing, instead of just performing for them. So while the grindage quotient might be low, I think I give a pretty damn good dance. There's a lot of people out there who would agree with me, although you probably won't run into them here.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Danielle
I truly enjoy dancing and I think it comes through in what I do. I look like I'm having fun because I probably am. I make a lot of eye contact and really try to bring the person into what I'm doing, instead of just performing for them. So while the grindage quotient might be low, I think I give a pretty damn good dance. There's a lot of people out there who would agree with me, although you probably won't run into them here.

Well, here's one you can run into here. Although I have had my share of "completely satisfying" encounters in strip clubs and enjoyed them, that is not generally what I am looking for. Rather I prefer the sort of dance and dancer you are and describe above. If the guy is not focused on "getting off" and resentful of anything short of it, having a one or more beautiful and sexy women climbing all over you and doing their best to get you excited can be a real blast. Ideally and usually, one then has the option of proceeding to the company of a provider for a satisfying conclusion to the evening. In general that is going to be much higher quality and less cheesy sex (I mean how good can it be if you keep your clothes on?!) than a rushed job by a dancer in some back room or dark corner.

-Ww

[justlooking]

I agree with Wwanderer that in-club extras are only good in those clubs that have private rooms with beds or couches.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justlooking
I agree with Wwanderer that in-club extras are only good in those clubs that have private rooms with beds or couches.

Are there (misnamed, imo) "strip clubs" in NYC where customers and dancers can retire to a private room with a bed (or couch usable as a bed), both disrobe and spend enough time in private to have something similar to a typical MP/agency/indie provider experience? If so, wow...I haven't been getting out enough. I have not seen any strip clubs like that in the US, ever. On the other hand, if I had, I wouldn't have called it a strip club.

-Ww

PS - Do the rooms have a shower too?

[justlooking]

Yes.

PS -- No.

[justlooking]

But they're not "misnamed" because (a) extras are not guaranteed and (b) they have stage shows. Out on the main floor, they look like all the other clubs. In fact, they are like all the other clubs. They just have particularly private and spacious VIP Rooms.

[Wwanderer]

Do the same places that have these well equipped private rooms also have dancers performing on a stage?

-Ww


Oops...crossed in the writing with your answer.

[justlooking]

Wwanderer, just so you understand, these aren't some secret special places I'm talking about. These are normal mainstream strip clubs that everybody in NYC's heard of.

[h. von bingen]

asscon sounds horrible. the places with back bedrooms sound horrible. suddenly, jl, i have far more compassion for your methodology.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justlooking
Wwanderer, just so you understand, these aren't some secret special places I'm talking about. These are normal mainstream strip clubs that everybody in NYC's heard of.

Interesting. As far as I am aware this is a pretty unusual set-up re other places, particularly because of point a in your previous post ("extras are not guaranteed"). I can't think of a good analogy elsewhere. But if the extras are so unpredictable, why not just go to Julies or whatever?

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

I am going to let the Aussie lady I met in Tokyo in March know; she was planning to show up in NYC in May or June (see my post about the Roppongi dancer). I doubt she would be expecting this.

-Ww

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
I doubt she would be expecting this.

Now do you have a better feel for Danielle's dilemma?

N.B.: It isn't ALL the clubs that do this, and you wouldn't necessarily know which ones they are at the time you audition. Girls are absolutely not REQUIRED to put out in the Champagne Rooms. But OTOH, the ones who don't feel they have trouble competing with the ones who do. (In some of these clubs, the ones who do are a minority by a lot, BTW.)

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
But if the extras are so unpredictable, why not just go to Julies or whatever?

1. Because a lot of guys don't go to these clubs for extras.

2. Because if you're the kind of guy who does go for extras, they don't have to be that unpredictable (meaning that if you're knowledgeable enough to know they're available, you're probably also knowledgeable enough to be able to make sure you get them). (Although this should cast some light on a disagreement I had with slinkybender earlier in this thread which you might not have fully understood, about strippers' exploiting the "uncertainty" period during which a customer is figuring this out. Although in a way that's a false issue, because anyone well-connected enough to know that extras are available should be able to just ask management which girls do them.)

3. Because some guys -- like me -- actually like the uncertainty, and enjoy the sport of fishing for what we can get (even if that sometimes leaves you paying a relative lot for not very much).

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Interesting. As far as I am aware this is a pretty unusual set-up re other places, particularly because of point a in your previous post ("extras are not guaranteed").

I would have thought this was common.

It certainly seemed to be the case at that club that was busted in Atlanta last year.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justlooking
I would have thought this was common.

Well, I guess all the clubs on The Block in Baltimore could be considered similar, though their backrooms are not up to the standards you describe. It may just be that I am a bit out-of-date and that the scene has changed. I do not do much clubbing (in the US) anymore...for no particulart reason.

Anyway, fwiiw, the sorts of places that I have encountered fairly frequently include

1) What I would call a "real" strip club in the sense that the important business conducted there is exotic/erotic dancing, on-stage and in guys' laps. Sometimes there is a darker and more private VIP area and sometimes there is a private room. If so, what you can get in them varies; it might be just a more permissive dance, but it could also be a BJ or even FS. However, even in the latter case, the customer would probably remained clothed, and the whole business would be rushed (timed "by the song") and furitive, more like sex in your car with a streetwalker than like any other sort of provider experience. (Sometimes you can get an outside "date" with a dancer at one of these clubs. I have enjoyed the uncertainty of that sort of "sport fishing". But it is not something that she will be doing with more than a small minority of her customers, and she may well be keeping it secret from the club's management and the other dancers.)

2) What I would call a strip club style brothel where the main business is selling sex. Often there is very little dancing, sometimes none; if there is dancing, it is generally pretty listless and secondary...the girls just walking around on the stage leering at customers when it is their turn. The rest of the time they either spend trolling for or servicing customers. All, or very nearly all, of the "dancers" do BJs and/or FS as their main business, either in a private room or away from the club (you just pick them up there and pay the "bar fine", a la Thailand) or sometimes in a (usually dark) public area.

It sounds like NYC clubs are a sort of weird (imo) hybrid of these two common types.

Anyway, I do now better understand some of Danielle's issues, and SB's for that matter, and more about the whole debate. I must say that it sounds like a crappy system, one that makes for bad vibes and problems for customers and dancers alike. While I'd be interested to try one of these places (anything once), I doubt I would like them.

-Ww

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
enjoy the sport of fishing for what we can get

you see what i mean?

[justlooking]

Just because I have this feeling I'm not being clear:

1. The clubs I'm talking about sound an awful lot like your No. 1. Any sex that may occur is still pretty furtive. (Although it's not timed "by the song". Most clubs in New York -- even the low-mileage ones -- time their VIP Room sessions by the hour.) It's just not as furtive as in the clubs where the Champagne Room consists of either semi-public cubicles or tiny individual rooms with a couple of chairs. For the most part,* outside "dating" at these clubs is just as you describe it. I'll repeat that I'd be surprised if there weren't many clubs in many cities with management-sanctioned in-club sex such as I'm describing.

2. These clubs aren't a "New York" norm. They don't constitute a majority of the clubs here. But they exist. And my main point is, they're not thought of any differently from the other clubs. They look just like them. They operate just like them in almost all respects. They just have more private VIP Rooms, which sometimes can be taken advantage of. Another salient point, though, is that most customers probably have no idea what's available in these clubs. Only the real "players" do. (Or customers who luck into extras.)
____________________________________________
* I say "for the most part" because things I've seen indicate that there are very few clubs that won't cooperate in arranging compensated out-of-club "dates" with strippers for very big-spending regular customers. That, of course, is completely different from the kind of sub rosa "dating" you and I do.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
you see what i mean?

No, I don't.

You seem to think that I'm somehow influencing women to do something they'd never do. I'd say I'm ferreting out women who'll do what I'm interested in. Even if, for whatever reason, they decide they'll do more with me than with most others.

To me, when you talk like that, you sound like all the morons in that Stripper Web thread who made as if that guy forced that $30,000 on the poor stripper.

[justlooking]

But, having said what I've said, I should make clear that:

1. In New York, as I believe in most places, furtive in-club sex (of one kind or another) is available in most clubs from some strippers.

2. In New York, as I believe in most places, out-of-club "dating" is avaiable in all clubs, either from "daters" who are essentially "prostitutes fronting as dancers" (to borrow an old thread title) or from strippers who do it occassionally with selected customers in the manner you described above.

[shorty]

WOW- a topic that really peaked my interest. Where do I start?

I'll start with this. I've been a very avid club go-er for the past 20 years. I've said it before, if there is a dive bar with a brass pole and girl dancing, I've been there.

In the 20 years that I've been doing this, the atmosphere definitely has changed. And not just in New York but all over. And oddly enough, so have my expectations. It used to be that when I go to a club, I have a beer or two, hand over dollar bills and be on my way. The most mileage expected was brushing up against her tit as you put the dollar in her bra. LD's were non-existant in most clubs and if they did, it was a champagne room at astronomical amounts.

Now, I've come to expect $20 LD. With the exception of one or two favorite haunts of mine where I go to just have a beer, if a club doesn't do some form of LDs, I don't bother. These are the clubs that suffer. ie - Slappy's in Paterson. The place is empty now because the mileage is almost nill when it used to be guaranteed for extras.

The ones with the higher mileage LD's get more of my business. Why? Because that's become the norm and my mentality for why I go has changed. I've come to expect some gropin during an LD. I think that most clubs know that guys aren't there just to watch a girl shake her ass in a bikini. They always want more, and the ones that get the return business are the ones that management 'tolerates' or condones higher mileage dances.

The level of mileage that you can get, to a certain degree, is also based on a couple prime factors:

1. Location and municipal laws - we can thank Guiliani for the downturn in mileage in NYC mainstream clubs. On a trip to Indianapolis last year, I visited 5 different clubs in 3 nights. Out of the 5, mileage was extremely high in 4 of them. DFK and HJ readily available without a hassle and more if you take a private LD. Obviously the laws are not as strict and the girls don't think twice about it. I also took one of them back to my hotel room for the night. Cost ? $$ for the whole night (plus dinner - roomservice). But when I went to Atlanta, the 4-5 clubs I went to were horrible. The girls were total teases and promised 'a good time' in the private room and all I got was a "no, I don't do that", "no, you can't do this" and even after I offered more when I was out 150 each time. And this was in clubs where the girls were seriously hungry for money and wasn't mainstream. That's the norm for Atlanta.

2. How busy is the club? (if there are 2 girls and 20 guys, you're not getting diddly that night). Also the more mainstream and popular a club is, the less likely your mileage will be high. And if you do get high mileage it will be at a substantial cost. ie. - scores, flashdancers, satin dolls, .....

3. Your interaction with the girls. Ya gotta be a gentleman about it. It takes time to develop a repor with the girls. Some of the best LD's I have ever gotten were from girls that I just sat and bought them a drink and talked to them like a human being and not a piece of meat. There was a girl that I knew at WildThings in Elizabeth that was cold as fish with my buddies in during LD's when we went. But she'd give me some of the best grindage, open HJ, DFK LD's that I've gotten from anyone. Why? Because I talked to her about her school, her kids, and not about how horney I was or how badly I wanted to bang her.

I could go on about this for pages on end. but I'll stop here and make one last point. I have to agree with JL in that it's not so much about the extras but more about the hunt of the possibilities of getting extras. If I really needed to get laid or a bj and pay $$$, I'll call a provider and not have to worry about the hassle. It's more about the excitement of finding out HOW FAR WILL SHE GO?

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Anyway, I do now better understand some of Danielle's issues, and SB's for that matter...

Slinky has issues?

[h. von bingen]

shorty, except for the unfortunate misspelling of the word rapport -- very informative. by all means post more.

jl, it was the analogy to sport fishing that got my hackles up. but, oth, if you will cop to ferreting what can i say?

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
jl, it was the analogy to sport fishing that got my hackles up. but, oth, if you will cop to ferreting what can i say?

I thought "sport fishing" was a great analogy. Both sports are very expensive. They are largely "guy things". In sport fishing one usually releases the quarry after landing them. Also, if you choose to keep the quarry, it is very expensive (mounting costs, transportation, etc.). Hemmingway would approve.

[h. von bingen]

i know what sport fishing is. no. 1 was very fond of it, and i have been. it's was comparing people to prey that bothered me. get it? but i know i did it in poker. o forget it, i'm busy packing -- i have to go to london (a city i hate) unexpectedly.

[justlooking]

If you're talking about in-club activities (which is what I was talking about when I used the word "fishing"), I think talking about it as sport is completely appropriate. That's what Wwanderer meant by his "Customer Hustling" thread, right?

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by pjorourke
I thought "sport fishing" was a great analogy. Both sports are very expensive. They are largely "guy things". In sport fishing one usually releases the quarry after landing them. Also, if you choose to keep the quarry, it is very expensive (mounting costs, transportation, etc.). Hemmingway would approve.

I thought it was analogous because after you catch them, you mount them.

[Wwanderer]

Fwiiw, the attitude of management towards extras and outside the club "dates" is probably determined largely by local LE places. There are towns and cities where undercover cops try to get something illegal from the ladies, not in order to bust them (though they may also do that) but as a reason to close down the club. Often this is the result of pressure from other local merchants who may feel that a strip club drives away some of their business. It is easy to see why club management is so hostile to overly "friendly" dancers in such places.

-Ww

[Danielle]

JL's description of some of these clubs in NYC is completely accurate. The first club I danced in was a completely mainstream place in Manhattan. Most patrons would describe this place as a complete rip-off as the dances are expensive and the rooms are monitored at all times. But I quickly realized that there were certain long-time customers whose willingness to visit often and spend a good deal of money had won them some sort of VIP status. The first time I was in the champagne room with one of these VIP customers was of course totally wierd, as I was told by the manager that the rules I had been given when I was hired need not apply with this guy. Basically, "Blank has been coming here for a long time, he's allowed to get away with more than the other customers, so as long as you're comfortable with what he'd like to do it's ok. You won't get in trouble or anything." I also realized that that didn't mean I necessarily had to do anything I didn't want to. This guy enjoyed the game of fly fishing immensly. Sure, there was a little pressure but I was never made to feel uncomfortable. In the future, I then realized that there were quite a few of these special VIP customers, and management always let me know. "This guy is like Blank." That explanation always sufficed.

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by slinkybender
I thought it was analogous because after you catch them, you mount them.

That one was too easy. We expect more of you.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justlooking
things I've seen indicate that there are very few clubs that won't cooperate in arranging compensated out-of-club "dates" with strippers for very big-spending regular customers. That, of course, is completely different from the kind of sub rosa "dating" you and I do.

Not that there is any reason that anyone should care, but just for clarity, "sub rosa dating" (a great way to describe it, btw) is not so much something I do as that I have done. In other words, it is not something I do on a regular basis lately (in close to a decade I guess).

-Ww

[curious]

Don't forget; if you're mounting them, it would be good to stuff them too.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Danielle
JL's description of some of these clubs in NYC is completely accurate. The first club I danced in . . . .

And then there's also the matter of the third club you danced in (if I read your posts right).

[Danielle]

Oh yeah. It was even more brothel-like than the first in that the brothel activities were available to any average Joe off the street who was willing to spend some money one time. And it was more expensive so you'd get better looking girls to fool around with.

[justlooking]

And nevertheless, if you asked 10 guys in NYC who know about strip clubs, nine of them would say it was an "air dance" place.

[Danielle]

I don't know about that. One of the many reasons I bailed out of the place so quick is because customers kept asking me about the rumors they'd heard and whether or not my champagne room experience would confirm those rumors.

[Sinful7]

Originally posted by justlooking
And nevertheless, if you asked 10 guys in NYC who know about strip clubs, nine of them would say it was an "air dance" place.

I sorry, but I feel like he is right most people know about
Level 1 (Stripclub), and everyguy in every club ask for more,
it like going to a car lot and not tring to talk the sales man
down. Level 2 (Sexual Entertainment) are popping up like
Ass-con the majority of men don't know that they can get
released with out going to Level 3 (Escorts).

Just a little hint, Most women look for a strong man, someone
that will teach them something about themselves; tap into,
and/or open up something inside themselves that leads into
the emotional gates, and with a little time and the right key
the gates might open. People I tend to attract my attention are
people intrigue my mental, because I know as soon as I look
at you if I have a physical attraction.

[Danielle]

I'm not saying it was wrong of them to ask about those rumors, if I were a guy at the club I'd probably want in on the action too. I'm just saying that since I wasn't comfortable offering extras in the rooms and there were plenty of girls I was competing with who were I was shit outta luck. I didn't make any money because people would ask me during discussion of the champagne room if I was like some other chick their friend told them about. And since you guys all know how fucking honest I am to my own detriment I told them we'd have a good time but probably not the kind of good time they were looking for.

[pswope]

Originally posted by Sinful7


Just a little hint, Most women look for a strong man, someone
that will teach them something about themselves; tap into,
and/or open up something inside themselves that leads into
the emotional gates, and with a little time and the right key
the gates might open. People I tend to attract my attention are
people intrigue my mental, because I know as soon as I look
at you if I have a physical attraction.

Perhaps the greatest* contribution , I've made to commercial sex is to impart the wisdom of Deja,the Orgasm Queen** to many ladies I've met. Their intrigue w/ improving their technique(and getting guys to bust faster and harder fostered a closeness I'd not experienced before.

* Others contend that my financial contribution helped raise the GNP of commercial sex,but I think BMM desrves those kudos.
** In contrast to S7, Deja relied on god given intuition as to what makes a man's dick feel great combined with an acute ability to sense what was driving blood into her date's penis. Although,after Reading Billy's review,I'm carrying my rectal thermometer w/ me from now on.

[Slinky Bender]

But Danielle, doesn't that fly in the face of the "theory" that guys go to stripclubs for the "fantasy"? Especially at a club where it's not clear that more is offered (I could see the argument where guys were going to a place where everyone knew extras were offered ).

[nychelsea]

For me, the club experience is about the '"thrill of the chase", the anticipation, the negotiating, the flirting, the ******* and the excitement.

While, I haven't spent any time in NYC Clubs in a while, it would be fun to do a tour, and see what happens. I know the Carousel is wide open for action (although I haven't been there lately).

It would also be fun to do the tour with a lady - and see what happens.

Chels

[busted]

Originally posted by Danielle
I make a lot of eye contact and really try to bring the person into what I'm doing, instead of just performing for them. So while the grindage quotient might be low, I think I give a pretty damn good dance. There's a lot of people out there who would agree with me, although you probably won't run into them here.

That's exactly right, eye contact. I was in SC this past week and had one of the best lap dances, but the girl kept looking over her shoulder, I thought she was looking for the bouncers. She decided rent a room rather than drive 1 1/2 hours back to Wilmington, NC. I offered my room and she agreed. We went for a bite to eat and chatted until about 4am. (Sweet girl, plenty of eat contact during dinner and at the bar afterward), but up at the room, the sex wouldv'e been great except NO eye contact whatsoever. I felt like she didn't want to be there. This was my first time at something like this so I didn't know what to expect, but this definitely wasn't it. I've been told that I'm fairly good looking, and have a very attractive wife for almost thirty years but this was odd. She left around 7am and barely said goodbye, and to top it off, gave me her phone # and told me to call her when I was back in the Carolinas. Very strange

[Danielle]

Originally posted by slinkybender
But Danielle, doesn't that fly in the face of the "theory" that guys go to stripclubs for the "fantasy"? Especially at a club where it's not clear that more is offered (I could see the argument where guys were going to a place where everyone knew extras were offered ).

I never said it was wrong for a guy to investigate the possibility of getting extras at a strip club, I was only saying that it was unfair for him to EXPECT them, because a lot of girls aren't comfortable offering them and I don't think it's right to make someone feel pressured in order to make money.
I think that a lot of guys do visit strip clubs just to hang out with friends, get some lap dances, and then go home. Not everyone is looking for something more.
One of the main reasons I left that club I was talking about is because I figured out rather quickly that everyone did know extras were offered. So pretty much everyone expected them, it was horrible for me.

[ExLS]

Originally posted by Danielle
I never said it was wrong for a guy to investigate the possibility of getting extras at a strip club, I was only saying that it was unfair for him to EXPECT them, because a lot of girls aren't comfortable offering them and I don't think it's right to make someone feel pressured in order to make money.
I think that a lot of guys do visit strip clubs just to hang out with friends, get some lap dances, and then go home. Not everyone is looking for something more.
One of the main reasons I left that club I was talking about is because I figured out rather quickly that everyone did know extras were offered. So pretty much everyone expected them, it was horrible for me.

Danielle,
Where I live, I each some form of extra(F/S, BJ, HJ, etc) in every club that I visited. Some took place in the club and outside as well. I said this before, it really depends on the dancer. If I like you as a person, I rather not purchase a ld, but buy you a drink and talk to you and then tip you extra cash while you dance on stage. I have been known to give as much as 50 while you dance on stage. Most dancers where I live are hustlers and looking for a free ride, escorts, or just decent girls who won't make it here. Just my opinion

[Slinky Bender]

IF:

Originally posted by Danielle

I think that a lot of guys do visit strip clubs just to hang out with friends, get some lap dances, and then go home. Not everyone is looking for something more.


THEN

the concept that if other girls are offering extras, you can't make any money if you don't. The only time you can't make money if other girls are offering extras and you can't is if all the guys are interested in extras.

I think the problem is that you are serving chicken at a steak restaurant, and thinking a lot of customers are coming there for the chicken, just because it occassionally gets ordered when you tell the customers "steak? No, it's just a name - Frank's Steaks - we don't actually serve steaks here". It works as long as no one else serves steaks there. But don't fool yourself into thinking that people are actually coming there for the chicken while complaining about the other waitresses "how can I sell any chicken here when they are selling steak?".

[Danielle]

Well, that analogy might work if the club I work at was called "Happy Handjobs" or something like that. The things is it's a gentlemen's club, and I don't think I'm at all in the minority because I'm selling chicken. I think that most of the women I work with are selling chicken most of the time, with a few exceptions.

[greyfox]

Originally posted by slinkybender


No, it's just a name - Frank's Steaks - we don't actually serve steaks here"..... But don't fool yourself into thinking that people are actually coming there for the chicken

And I always thought Frank's Chicken House in Manville,N.J. deserved the blue ribbon for unlikely strip club names.Now I understand.

[Casper]

Originally posted by greyfox
And I always thought Frank's Chicken House in Manville,N.J. deserved the blue ribbon for unlikely strip club names.Now I understand.

From my experience, l/d are lame and no extras to be had. Seems like a great place for someone to work who serves only chicken.

[Bill Furniture]

Originally posted by Casper
From my experience, l/d are lame and no extras to be had. Seems like a great place for someone to work who serves only chicken.

chicken fucker!

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by Danielle
Well, that analogy might work if the club I work at was called "Happy Handjobs" or something like that. The things is it's a gentlemen's club, and I don't think I'm at all in the minority because I'm selling chicken. I think that most of the women I work with are selling chicken most of the time, with a few exceptions.

Sure, and all you pay for with a prostitute is "time and companionship". Again, if what you were saying is the actual state of facts, then you wouldn't have all the guys expecting more. It's not that I don't think you're right that it's very hard to sell a no exptras dance in a spot where extras are going on. i just don't think you're right about guys not looking for extras, and I still fail to see any viable explanation from the scenraios you've proposed.

Face it, if there was any significant amount of guys who really didin't want extras, then the concept that you can't make any money without giving them, no matter what anyone else was doing, wouldn't hold. Seriously, what would it matter? If you're a guy who doesn't want any extras, why wouldn't you just go with a girl who didn't offer them? Fact is, if you were a guy who didn't want extras, you'd be more prone to stay away from some girl who was "some skeez" who did offer them.

[Casper]

Originally posted by Bill Furniture
chicken fucker!

Cluck U


Originally posted by slinkybender
Face it, if there was any significant amount of guys who really didin't want extras, then the concept that you can't make any money without giving them, no matter what anyone else was doing, wouldn't hold. Seriously, what would it matter? If you're a guy who doesn't want any extras, why wouldn't you just go with a girl who didn't offer them? Fact is, if you were a guy who didn't want extras, you'd be more prone to go with some girl who was "some skeez" who did offer them.

. DITTO

[Danielle]

Originally posted by slinkybender
Sure, and all you pay for with a prostitute is "time and companionship". Again, if what you were saying is the actual state of facts, then you wouldn't have all the guys expecting more. It's not that I don't think you're right that it's very hard to sell a no exptras dance in a spot where extras are going on. i just don't think you're right about guys not looking for extras, and I still fail to see any viable explanation from the scenraios you've proposed.

Face it, if there was any significant amount of guys who really didin't want extras, then the concept that you can't make any money without giving them, no matter what anyone else was doing, wouldn't hold. Seriously, what would it matter? If you're a guy who doesn't want any extras, why wouldn't you just go with a girl who didn't offer them? Fact is, if you were a guy who didn't want extras, you'd be more prone to stay away from some girl who was "some skeez" who did offer them.

Believe it or not, there's a lot of guys out there who do stay away from the "skeezy" girls who offer extras. These guys DO just go to strip clubs to get some dances and chat with a girl they like and who they find attractive. Just because that doesn't describe you and your friends doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The reason I left the club I worked at for a brief time over the summer is because it was undoubtedly an "extras" kind of place and everyone knew it. For the most part, I think that the people who walked through the door knew the drill and chose that club because that's what they were looking for. Therefore, the clientele at that club wasn't representative of stripclub goers as a whole. On the other hand, the club I work for now is NOT an extras club. Sure, the lap dances get a little more wild out on the floor than the ones at the other club, but there's little to no behind the scenes champagne room action going on. I do make plenty of money at my club because I'm not up against a huge number of dancers who offer extras, and because I don't think that the majority of patrons are expecting them.
I think that there's three kinds of strip club customers, just like there's three different types of dancers.
1) Guys who don't want extras for whatever reason and don't seek them out at all. (These guys are perfectly happy with the services I provide)
2) Guys who wouldn't ask for extras unless they were somehow prompted into believing they might get them. ( I make money off of these guys too, because I don't lead them to believe anythings going to happen that isn't and I'm direct about what my deal is. Unless of course a girl who does offer extras gets to them first, then I'm SOL.)*
3) Guys who go to strip clubs for the sole purpose of finding girls who are willing to provide them with extras, either inside or outside of the establishment. ( I almost never make money off of these types.)
The club I work for attracts the first and second kind of customer, the third category would obviously be annoyed at the expense and lack of extra possibilities. They would fare much better at the dish or VIP's.

* The reason these girls bother me sometimes is because their behavior loses me money. I'd prefer that they work at a club like the dish, as I think it would be far more agreeable for everyone involved.

[harrynj]

Originally posted by Danielle
The reason I left the club I worked at for a brief time over the summer is because it was undoubtedly an "extras" kind of place and everyone knew it.

It figures, not a surprise. I noticed that you have visited DD. Any chance that you will work there?

How common are guys in your first category? Many are either occasional customers and/or are likely unaware about getting extras.

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by Danielle
Just because that doesn't describe you and your friends doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Hey, I'm not the one who's first post here complained about customers who were giving me money at first, and then when they found out I didn't offer extras stopped seeing me, and then later complained that once some girls in my club offered extras that it became impossible for me to make a living. Look, you can make whatever arguments you want about the facts, but once you give the facts, please make sure your conclusions are consistent with your own set of facts. Right now, yours are not. What I think we are back to is a prior argument that I think you are deluded as to what percentage of the "tipping public" falls into each of the three categories you list above (i.e. I don't think the guys who don't expect extras spend a enough on dancers to make a living off of - the guys who spend the $ know why they are spending them. the biggest single pice of evidence of this is that the girls who make th emost money all do it with the promise -mostly false promise- of sex. The book of "clean" girls who are top earners is about as thick as "French War Heros"/"Great Jewish Basketball Players"/"Great Moments in Black Skiing"/etc.).

I don't dispute that category #1 guys exist, I just don't think you can make money off of them on any consitent basis. I think the reality is that most of the guys who you think are in category 1 or 2, are actually category 3. As I've stated before, I think it's just that you can't admit to yourseld that you're a little bit like the girl who's face you want to smash in, it's just that she's a little more "honest" about being a ROB. Of course, what would prove me wrong is if you have all these customers who have seen you over and over again long term (like 6 months or more) who have never even asked for extras, or your number, or anything like that (of course, guys who you have actually seen outside the club don't count). (of course you can't win, because if you told me you had all sorts of customers like that, and that's where you make most of your money, I would say you were lying).

[Danielle]

ok, go ahead and call me a liar then. Because while you're right, those customers aren't responsible for most of my income, you're wrong in saying that they don't exist. I do actually have several consistant customers that fall into category 1. They come in, we chat, they get some dances and that's it. And while the big money does come from guys who fall into categories 2 or 3; these being the most consistent customers and the ones most likely to spend a lot, there are enough random category 1 guys in a night for a "clean" girl to make a decent living. I infact make most of my money off of guys I've never seen before and will probably never see again.
I really don't believe I'm being delusional in my thinking, either. I did start this thread because I was sick of this guy asking me to hang out with him outside the club, and I wanted to know how I could retain him as a customer without doing that, but I learned from that whole thing and realized it would never work out. I decided to tell the guy that it was never going to happen, and that I really enjoyed his company inside the club and wanted to leave it at that. I probably should have done that much earlier, but I learned my lesson. My days of stringing people along to eek every last dollar out of them are over. That's why I'm not a top earner, and I never claimed to be. If the guys I think are in category 1 when they actually are category 2 or 3, well that's not my fault or my problem. Because I never lead anyone into thinking they're gonna get anything extra from me if they spend enough. And once they start asking I politely blow off their requests. If they want to continue spending money on me with the knowledge that it's not going to get them anywhere then that's up to them, and I'm going to take their money and not feel the least bit bad about it.

[Thorn]

Originally posted by justlooking
PS -- No. [/B]

Well, not really.

If Tina knew you she'd let you use the shower at her place.

The question then became, would you want to?

[Thorn]

Originally posted by justlooking
But they're not "misnamed" because (a) extras are not guaranteed and (b) they have stage shows. Out on the main floor, they look like all the other clubs. In fact, they are like all the other clubs. They just have particularly private and spacious VIP Rooms.

Ah...

Well, if that is the criteria being use, then your P.S. above is correct.

No showers, other then the ones used for show purposes.

[Thorn]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
asscon sounds horrible. the places with back bedrooms sound horrible. suddenly, jl, i have far more compassion for your methodology.

In some [most?] respects they are.

However, please note that in some regards they are the closest NYC gets to a bacchanal [unless you are particularly connected and have access certain private party scenes... these usually move about quite a bit].

Given my old "swingers" roots, there is something about an ASS-Con that tickes my fancy. [yes, its perverse... but my inner pagan occassional speaks to me and requests an audience]

[Thorn]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Interesting. As far as I am aware this is a pretty unusual set-up re other places, particularly because of point a in your previous post ("extras are not guaranteed"). I can't think of a good analogy elsewhere. But if the extras are so unpredictable, why not just go to Julies or whatever?

-Ww

The hunt, and the inevitable result when the hunter is skilled and the game is afoot.

[Thorn]

Originally posted by justlooking
No, I don't.

You seem to think that I'm somehow influencing women to do something they'd never do. I'd say I'm ferreting out women who'll do what I'm interested in. Even if, for whatever reason, they decide they'll do more with me than with most others.

To me, when you talk like that, you sound like all the morons in that Stripper Web thread who made as if that guy forced that $30,000 on the poor stripper.

B, JL is dead on regarding this.

No one is creating circumstances to entice the unwilling into crossing personal lines of tolerance.

JL is something of an ocean fisher, to continue the analogy, so he uses heavier line and tackle.

I'm something of a fresh water fisherman, who prefers to use light tackle and line.

Either way, the idea is to create a set of circumstances where you run into a willing partner in crime who is doing what she is doing as much to be with you, as it is for getting the money. That's the ideal, at any rate.

[Thorn]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
shorty, except for the unfortunate misspelling of the word rapport -- very informative. by all means post more.

jl, it was the analogy to sport fishing that got my hackles up. but, oth, if you will cop to ferreting what can i say?

What, there aren't as many women fishing as men?

The first time I ever used this analogy was in reference to the DANCERS, not the cliental.

I said then, "I like going to strip-clubs sometimes just to see the dancers do their thing. I sit in the back of the club, watching the dancers work the room. Like expert anglers, they cast their line, the fish bites, they set the hook and reel them in."

It works both ways.

[Thorn]

Originally posted by Danielle
Well, that analogy might work if the club I work at was called "Happy Handjobs" or something like that. The things is it's a gentlemen's club, and I don't think I'm at all in the minority because I'm selling chicken. I think that most of the women I work with are selling chicken most of the time, with a few exceptions.

Yes, well...

That would work if there were anything left of the proper usage of the word 'gentleman' in this connotation. 'Upscale' is equally as bad.

Slinky's thoughts are dead on because "Gentleman's Club" has become, in the lexicon of strip-clubs, synonymous with extras.

Hell, I've been to many bikini bars, divey places but where all the customers and dancers are locals, that are FAR more 'genteel' the the average "gentleman's club". People are there to drink and socialize. Not for extras of any sort. Think the old "Billy's Topless" in downtown Manhattan, for one.

Unfortunately, these places are dying out big time.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Thorn
If Tina knew you . . . .

NOT a strip club.

(I'll bet even slinkybender will be with me on this one.)

[justlooking]

(Ooops. I should have read on before I posted. Sorry, Thorn.)

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Danielle
Well, that analogy might work if the club I work at was called "Happy Handjobs" or something like that. The things is it's a gentlemen's club, and I don't think I'm at all in the minority because I'm selling chicken. I think that most of the women I work with are selling chicken most of the time, with a few exceptions.

I hope this doesn't come out too convoluted, but let's try.

The problem here is a sort of triple inversion.

In the first place, "gentlemen's clubs" advertise themselves with all sorts of suggestive shit about what goes on in them. To be sure, though, most people take that as bullshit sales puffery.

But then at least some people discover that that it isn't really bullshit. Some "gentlemen's clubs" (and it's more than a few) are like the club you left, where a lot of really significant stuff happens on premises. Probably more clubs are like the one I think you work at now, where some stuff happens on premises and a lot of stuff happens off premises. Leaving yourself out of it, what percentage of strippers at your club would you say have NEVER had sex with a customer outside the club (whether it's for cash or not almost doesn't make a difference)? (I was gonna say that if it's a percentage in more than single digits I don't think you're being candid -- but then I remembered that strippers all lie to each other about this subject. So maybe this is a case where guys like slinkybender and me actually know more than you do about what goes on in clubs like yours.)

The point I'm trying to make is that when you talk about a "gentlemen's club" like yours, I don't know it as a place where sex isn't available. To the contrary, I know it to be a place where sex is available. Maybe I'm not the average guy who wanders into your club, but am I so unique that the effect of people like me on your work situation is negligible? I doubt it.

[justlooking]

And this is especially so because, as slinkybender points out, the guys who spend more tend to be the guys who spend more time in strip clubs who tend to be the guys who know more about what's really going on.

I think you can make a decent living off the guys who sort of wander in cluelessly and are satisfied with nothing more than table dances. (At least, it'll only be decent if you don't ruthlessly play them the way your nemesis does.) But, as you said, you won't develop a lot of regulars that way and you won't make a great living.

There's nothing wrong with making a good living instead of a great living.

But remember, this whole discussion was started, many many threads ago when you first arrived here, when you asked us why you weren't a top earner.

[Slinky Bender]

I've reread them both over a couple of times, and I keep thinking that everything in Danielle's last post exactly proves everything in my ost preceding it... but specifically:

Originally posted by slinkybender
I don't dispute that category #1 guys exist,

Originally posted by Danielle
you're wrong in saying that they don't exist.

WTF?

Originally posted by slinkybender
I just don't think you can make money off of them on any consitent basis

Originally posted by Danielle
Because while you're right, those customers aren't responsible for most of my income,

uh, huh.

Originally posted by Danielle
there are enough random category 1 guys in a night for a "clean" girl to make a decent living. I infact make most of my money off of guys I've never seen before and will probably never see again.


So which one is it? I'm confused.


Originally posted by Danielle
If the guys I think are in category 1 when they actually are category 2 or 3, well that's not my fault or my problem. Because I never lead anyone into thinking they're gonna get anything extra from me if they spend enough. And once they start asking I politely blow off their requests.

But it's pretty clear that they aren't in category 1. If any guy ever asks you for your number or extras or whatever, BY DEFINITION they never were category 1 guys to begin with, and you were wrong when you assumed that they were. So we get back to the point which is that you aren't in fact amking that money off of category 1 guys, you're making it off of category 2 and 3 guys, because you incorrectly decied that they were category 1 guys.

And from where I sit, it looks like you are using your "perception" (which seems to be a little "convenient') that the universe of category 1 guys is much, much bigger than it actually is, as a crutch to enable you to take their money, but still feel good about yourself.

I new a drug dealer once who thought of himself as very moral, and didn't see anything wrong in what he was doing, since he only sold drugs for recreational purposes and would never sell anything to "an addict". Of course, he never thought any of his customers were addicts, including the guys who were buying several grams a day, and would call him with "emergency" orders, etc. He just needed them not to be addicts, because he wanted to think he was doing the right thing. It didn't, however, change what those customers actually were.

[Sinful7]

Originally posted by justlooking
And this is especially so because, as slinkybender points out, the guys who spend more tend to be the guys who spend more time in strip clubs who tend to be the guys who know more about what's really going on.

I think you can make a decent living off the guys who sort of wander in cluelessly and are satisfied with nothing more than table dances. (At least, it'll only be decent if you don't ruthlessly play them the way your nemesis does.) But, as you said, you won't develop a lot of regulars that way and you won't make a great living.

There's nothing wrong with making a good living instead of a great living.

But remember, this whole discussion was started, many many threads ago when you first arrived here, when you asked us why you weren't a top earner.

These quote is the best thing since slice bread, like the magic
key that opened multiple doors.

Men in the Sex Entertainment Establishments
-Novices tend to be just fascinated with the enivornment,
at least 20 women walking around half naked with the music
beat hypnotizing them, would make anyone horomones race.
They're caught up in the scene, sucess rate of a catch very
rare, they are just learning how to fish in the pond of senuality.

-Regulars tend to know the system and how it works, there
luck is the draw of the card. Regulars usely pull the girl that they
put the most time and money into. Regulars have about a 30%
chance of success rate with there prey

-Pros: Been fishing for years understand the job better than
the girls most of the time, they are mental predators, and I
bet there knowledge of the establishment gives them 50%
success rate with less time and money than the regulars

Women who Cash IN at the end of the Night
-Strippers make the least money because they do the least,
and promise the most. They act like they are interested play
with the idea until cliental sees through the bullshit and moves
on. I have danced in many states and the strippers that make
the most money work in the stripclubs with a high male
turnover. The more people frequent the more money the
girls make ( A stripper making over a thousand dollars a
night on a regular basis not doing any x-tra RARE- if someone
knows of a place like this let me know) In Westchester there
is a spot on Tuesdays Funk Flex DJ there and girls clean up,
thousand plus because they have the name to pull in the
guys and the girls hold the rep. for the establishment.
-Sex Entertainters are the new wave of money for the girls
lets tippie toe on the line and cause a release on average
a thousand dollars a shift, more and more of these places
are popping up so in a couple of years the money will drop
like in the stripclub, but as for now it the hotspot, and strip
club are being used for I eyecandy over a cold beer
***But not too many novices know about these spots, unless
you are in the loop
-Esorts are the Queens they openly sell there sexual service
under there own rules and regulations, even if you work for
an Escort Service. The work is always in demand they are getting around 400 a trick most man cum in 10 minutes.( Unless you
work in Las Vegas and you can turn a trick for a thousand a
pop) an easy guranteed $1000 day at leisure.

Who is Holding $$$$$$$

It can be any of the three, it depends who is the smartest with
regenerating your money in other projects. Just saving money
might get you a house or a nice safety cushion, but the average
career of a Sexual Entertainer is ten years, an average mortage
payment is thirty years. A no-income mortage down payment
yout looking to put 50k on a house and you still have to maintain
it. I tried the getting a house in NY but instead of it working for
me I would be working for it. So instead I have a house in
Missouri with 3 arcers and my taxes are 300 dollars a year.
30K in cash paid in full and I own it, now I have assets. Just
picked up undeveloped land in South Carolina. It like playing
monoply you go around the board a couple of times than start
buying property than you put houses on it. With the money I
had left over I put it into this computer world. I have every
piece of equipment one needs for the computer, both system
apple and windows, and laptop. I learned how to live in
my means of my income and I have other business on the side
I run. Lets just put it like I don't order checks from the bank just
deposit slip books. Never put all your eggs in one basket and
you will always eat.

**The strong rules the weak, the wise rules the strong....
Wisdom is the key to wealth, wisdom comes from knowledge
of your enivornment and if you plant seeds in the right soil
you will eat off the friut of the land.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Sinful7
These quote is the best thing since slice bread, like the magic
key that opened multiple doors.

I take back everything I said in that other thread. How could anyone say your posts are promotional?

[SFSF]

[justlooking]

I realized over lunch that the point I was trying to make in my two longish posts above was so convoluted that I lost the thread of it in those posts.

What I meant to be saying was:

A stripper like Danielle can't rely on the way her club is presented to the world at large as a defense against anyone's expectations as to what's available inside.

If you looked at the advertising for any of those clubs, you'd think there might be some pretty exciting shit going on in them. Certainly, the advertising never suggests that as little goes on as Danielle says is the norm. (And, moreover, from the advertising, you can't tell Danielle's current club apart from the "gentlemen's club" she bailed from because extras were too much of a norm apart from, say, the Carousel Club.)

So it isn't the advertising that tells anyone that no extras are available in the club. If anything, the advertising suggests the opposite.

Instead, what I think Danielle means she relies on is what "everybody knows" is really available in "gentlemen's clubs." She's assuming "everybody knows" that it's all just a tease (including the ads).

And that's where we get into a problem. Because on the one hand a lot of guys probably do know all about the official rules and all, and so "know" that nothing much is going on in those clubs. (Just like a lot of guys "know" that the first club Danielle worked at is a rip-off joint where they charge a lot of money but where no mileage whatsoever is permitted.) But on the other hand a lot of other guys -- and they tend to be the more experienced ones who are the more regular customers and bigger spenders -- "know" something completely different.

So there's the problem: both Danielle on the one side and slinkybender and I on the other are arguing based on our perception of what strip club customers "really" know. And while I have a feeling Danielle might be leaving out a lot of stuff that might support her view of this (because guys that just come in once in a while for a few laps and some chat aren't that interesting to talk about), I have to agree with slinkybender that what she's posted so far tends to support our view.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by slinkybender
If any guy ever asks you for your number or extras or whatever, BY DEFINITION they never were category 1 guys to begin with, and you were wrong when you assumed that they were.

I'd like to mildly dissent from that.

Leaving Danielle herself out of this, it's possible the guy is a Category 1 who's been misled by one particular stripper's attentiveness etc. into believing there's a chance for some sort of outside relationship to develop.

I believe that type of guy must pose the hardest problem for a stripper such as Danielle describes herself as. Because if your schtick is to present yourself as a "nice" "normal" girl, that's EXACTLY what these poor pathetic guys are most susceptible to and what'll most mislead them, even if the stripper doesn't intend it. The question then becomes at what point she's "obligated" to cut a guy like that off (I think even Danielle agrees by this point that it's wrong for a stripper to actively seek out business like that). But that really was a large part of the "Phone Number" thread, and needn't be rehashed.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Sinful7
they are getting around 400 a trick most man cum in 10 minutes.( Unless you work in Las Vegas and you can turn a trick for a thousand a pop) an easy guranteed $1000 day at leisure.

7, please don't think I'm going after you, but I have to tell you that you don't know as much yet about the nuts-and-bolts aspects of full-service prostitution as you do about Strippers and Sexual Entertainers.

(E.g., most full-service prostitutes make much less than $400 a trick, and only the worst rip-offs cut off a session after the guy comes once -- reputable full-service prostitutes schedule by the hour. If you think they can "easily" make a "guaranteed" $1000 a day -- much less "at leisure" -- you're going to be very disappointed if you ever decide to go that route.)

(Rereading the foregoing, the language sounds harsh. Please believe me, 7, I don't mean it that way.)

[justlooking]

Originally posted by justlooking
Leaving yourself out of it, what percentage of strippers at your club would you say have NEVER had sex with a customer outside the club (whether it's for cash or not almost doesn't make a difference)? (I was gonna say that if it's a percentage in more than single digits I don't think you're being candid -- but then I remembered that strippers all lie to each other about this subject. So maybe this is a case where guys like slinkybender and me actually know more than you do about what goes on in clubs like yours.)

Whoops.

Should have been, "I was gonna say that if it isn't a percentage in more than single digits . . . ."

Sorry.

[Danielle]

Originally posted by justlooking
And this is especially so because, as slinkybender points out, the guys who spend more tend to be the guys who spend more time in strip clubs who tend to be the guys who know more about what's really going on.

I think you can make a decent living off the guys who sort of wander in cluelessly and are satisfied with nothing more than table dances. (At least, it'll only be decent if you don't ruthlessly play them the way your nemesis does.) But, as you said, you won't develop a lot of regulars that way and you won't make a great living.

There's nothing wrong with making a good living instead of a great living.

But remember, this whole discussion was started, many many threads ago when you first arrived here, when you asked us why you weren't a top earner.

And now I understand, beyond a shadow of a doubt, why I'm not. Because number one, I'm not a "clean" girl who misleads people with the whole false promise of sex or outside relationship thing (at least not anymore at all) and number two, I'm not a "dirty" girl in the champagne room.
I think that 7's previous post was fantastic, with the exception of her saying that the girls who make the least are strippers because they offer the least and promise the most. I've learned the girls who actually make the least are the ones who both offer the least and promise the least. The what you see is what you get girl, basically like myself.
One of the problems I've encountered with having discussions with people on this board is that they dredge up these old quotes of mine that don't neccesarily apply to the way I feel anymore because my thoughts have evolved since then and try to use them as ammunition for argument's sake. My question about why I'm not a top earner has obviously been answered a million times over, I think.

[Danielle]

Originally posted by justlooking
Whoops.

Should have been, "I was gonna say that if it isn't a percentage in more than single digits . . . ."

Sorry.

JL - I couldn't possibly answer this question and I won't even try. Because I've surprised MYSELF at times in this bussiness. I couldn't even begin to scrutinize the extracurricular activities of my coworkers, because you can't judge a book by its cover and you're absolutely right that girls lie to eachother about any number of things while on the job.
I am often amazed at the shocked reactions I get from coworkers when they discover simple things about me like; I've experimented with drugs in the past, I worked at the Paradise Club, my language can often be sprinkled with curse words, etc, etc. ' My God "Danielle", I thought you were such a good girl!' Without admitting to anything too incriminating, allow me to say that it's the good girls who make the best bad girls.

[Danielle]

Originally posted by justlooking
7, please don't think I'm going after you, but I have to tell you that you don't know as much yet about the nuts-and-bolts aspects of full-service prostitution as you do about Strippers and Sexual Entertainers.

(E.g., most full-service prostitutes make much less than $400 a trick, and only the worst rip-offs cut off a session after the guy comes once -- reputable full-service prostitutes schedule by the hour. If you think they can "easily" make a "guaranteed" $1000 a day -- much less "at leisure" -- you're going to be very disappointed if you ever decide to go that route.)

(Rereading the foregoing, the language sounds harsh. Please believe me, 7, I don't mean it that way.)

what do you do after he comes? (Dumb question of the month, but seriously, less than $400 for a double header?)
Or do the two of you just share a ciggarrette and cuddle?

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Danielle
what do you do after he comes?

Depends. I've honestly had a time where the woman and I began reciting the next-to-the last scene of Henry V (no, that's not the part that goes, "Once more into the breach"). But somehow most prostitutes and most johns just aren't that pretentious.

Originally posted by Danielle
but seriously, less than $400 for a double header?

Yeah. Less than $400 for a double header.

No one said that kind of work is easy. It isn't.

(Also, most guys who aren't capable of double headers are fully capable of spacing things out so that a single header will fill a large part of their hour. And most reputable prostitutes are capable of doing that, too.)

(But also, of course there can be cuddling and chatting both before and after.)

[Danielle]

Originally posted by slinkybender
I've reread them both over a couple of times, and I keep thinking that everything in Danielle's last post exactly proves everything in my ost preceding it... but specifically:





WTF?





uh, huh.



So which one is it? I'm confused.




But it's pretty clear that they aren't in category 1. If any guy ever asks you for your number or extras or whatever, BY DEFINITION they never were category 1 guys to begin with, and you were wrong when you assumed that they were. So we get back to the point which is that you aren't in fact amking that money off of category 1 guys, you're making it off of category 2 and 3 guys, because you incorrectly decied that they were category 1 guys.

And from where I sit, it looks like you are using your "perception" (which seems to be a little "convenient') that the universe of category 1 guys is much, much bigger than it actually is, as a crutch to enable you to take their money, but still feel good about yourself.

I new a drug dealer once who thought of himself as very moral, and didn't see anything wrong in what he was doing, since he only sold drugs for recreational purposes and would never sell anything to "an addict". Of course, he never thought any of his customers were addicts, including the guys who were buying several grams a day, and would call him with "emergency" orders, etc. He just needed them not to be addicts, because he wanted to think he was doing the right thing. It didn't, however, change what those customers actually were.

I didn't incorrectly categorize them, I just didn't discover until later on in my dealings with them that they were category 2 or 3. and I think that for the purposes of my making money off of them with the understanding that I won't provide them with any extras then where I'm concerned they're still category 1. I will never feel "bad" about taking anyone's money as long as I feel that we're on the same page about what's actually invovled in our bussiness transaction. ie, I will dance for you, sit and chat with you, I WILL NOT give you a handjob in the champagne room or date you at some point, or meet you when my shift is over, or give you my phone number, and you will pay me $20 per dance and tip me a little extra if I sit with you for an extended period of time.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Danielle
One of the problems I've encountered with having discussions with people on this board is that they dredge up these old quotes of mine that don't neccesarily apply to the way I feel anymore because my thoughts have evolved since then and try to use them as ammunition for argument's sake.

Sorry. Professional habit.

(Also, unfortunately, the nature of internet discussion boards. You haven't really felt this until somebody dredges up something you said years ago.)

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Danielle
I didn't incorrectly categorize them, I just didn't discover until later on in my dealings with them that they were category 2 or 3. and I think that for the purposes of my making money off of them with the understanding that I won't provide them with any extras then where I'm concerned they're still category 1. I will never feel "bad" about taking anyone's money as long as I feel that we're on the same page about what's actually invovled in our bussiness transaction. ie, I will dance for you, sit and chat with you, I WILL NOT give you a handjob in the champagne room or date you at some point, or meet you when my shift is over, or give you my phone number, and you will pay me $20 per dance and tip me a little extra if I sit with you for an extended period of time.

In a way, this post shows where the "Phone Number" thread went wrong (and it's not Danielle's fault, IMO).

I don't think the point is Danielle's "feeling bad" or not "feeling bad". I think the point is what Danielle should understand about her customers and their expectations, so she can maximize her income while keeping herself out of trouble.

And what I and many others think she should understand is that there are very few Category 1 guys among the guys who will see her more than once (with the possible exception I sketched out in a recent post, who are Category 1 guys who are even worse from a stripper's point of view than Category 2 or 3 guys).

This is NOT so Danielle should feel bad taking their money. But rather so she can gague her actions against their likely expectations, and so she won't be taken by surprise when they start acting like they're not Category 1 guys anymore.

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by justlooking
I'd like to mildly dissent from that.

Leaving Danielle herself out of this, it's possible the guy is a Category 1 who's been misled by one particular stripper's attentiveness etc. into believing there's a chance for some sort of outside relationship to develop.


I think you need to review the definitions:

Originally posted by Danielle
1) Guys who don't want extras for whatever reason and don't seek them out at all.
2) Guys who wouldn't ask for extras unless they were somehow prompted into believing they might get them.
3) Guys who go to strip clubs for the sole purpose of finding girls who are willing to provide them with extras, either inside or outside of the establishment.

I can't believe you're argueing that this is a category 1 guy and not a category 2 guy to begin with.

[justlooking]

Maybe I'm misreading the definitions. I'm thinking of a guy who isn't looking for "extras" so much as he's looking for a girlfriend. Well, not even looking, really. More like, he finds some "nice" girl, who doesn't have "insincere sex worker" written all over her, paying attention to him, and he begins to think. If that's Category 2, then OK.

[justlooking]

Do you distinguish between guys who are looking for "mileage" and guys who are looking for "girlfriends", BTW?

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by Danielle
I didn't incorrectly categorize them, I just didn't discover until later on in my dealings with them that they were category 2 or 3.

What kind of blather is that nonsense ?

you wanted them to be category 1, so you assumed that they were for your convenince. However, that was never the case. they were category 2 or 3 from the beginning, but you just didn't "discover" that till later.

Discover? Discover?????????????????? BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.
I thought it wasn't raining outside, but when I actully went outside I "discovered" that it was raining. My conclusion is therefore that it wasn't raining till I went outside.

Question: Does the lighbulb go out when you close the refrigerator door?

[JackT]

In the context of this discussion, I don't see how that distinction would matter one iota.

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by justlooking
Do you distinguish between guys who are looking for "mileage" and guys who are looking for "girlfriends", BTW?

For purposes of this discussion, it really doesn't matter.

[justlooking]

Hey, I got JackT and slinkybender to agree on something!!!!!!!!

[JackT]

Originally posted by justlooking
Hey, I got JackT and slinkybender to agree on something!!!!!!!!

Which one of us is the broken clock? ;)

[justlooking]

Maybe you both are.

[Geezy Muldoon]

(When I was a bad boy in high school and had lots of money in my pocket from assorted bad boy activities, I would, on occassion, throw handfuls of change out to the assemble masses on the steps of my high school. The money would be feverishly collected and my status as momentary Lord of the Underworld recognized.)

(I really was incredibly obnoxious at times.)

(If I could be assured that such behavior would get me a better class of hooker, I'd start going to titty bars and throwing out handfuls of money.)

(I wonder how much it would take to identify all the "easy" girls.)

[Danielle]

Originally posted by slinkybender
What kind of blather is that nonsense ?

you wanted them to be category 1, so you assumed that they were for your convenince. However, that was never the case. they were category 2 or 3 from the beginning, but you just didn't "discover" that till later.

Discover? Discover?????????????????? BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.
I thought it wasn't raining outside, but when I actully went outside I "discovered" that it was raining. My conclusion is therefore that it wasn't raining till I went outside.

Question: Does the lighbulb go out when you close the refrigerator door?

Oh, come on! I would prefer that all my customers were category 1, but that doesn't mean I delude myself into believing that they are when they've shown me they aren't. Sometimes I really don't "discover" the difference for awhile. After all, a guy's not going to ask for my number or ask me out on a date the first time I dance for him. So why am I at fault for thinking he's category 1 until he proves me wrong? After I discover his true intentions, I don't believe that he suddently switched categories, I realize he was hiding his real nature or hadn't exposed it to me yet.

JL- Just for conversation's sake, although everyone's correct in saying that it doesn't really matter as far as this discussions concerned, I do distinguish between guys who are seeking mileage and guys who are girlfriend shopping. The girlfriend shoppers are pretty pathetic while the mileage seekers are trying to get more bang for their buck.

[Danielle]

Originally posted by Judge Crater
(When I was a bad boy in high school and had lots of money in my pocket from assorted bad boy activities, I would, on occassion, throw handfuls of change out to the assemble masses on the steps of my high school. The money would be feverishly collected and my status as momentary Lord of the Underworld recognized.)

(I really was incredibly obnoxious at times.)

(If I could be assured that such behavior would get me a better class of hooker, I'd start going to titty bars and throwing out handfuls of money.)

(I wonder how much it would take to identify all the "easy" girls.)

Probably not too much. But the easiest girls might not be the best lay, and may even turn out to be a waste of money. Although not neccessarily. This is not really my area.

[Danielle]

Originally posted by justlooking
Hey, I got JackT and slinkybender to agree on something!!!!!!!!

I would be far more impressed if you could get Slinky and I to ever agree on something.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Danielle
After all, a guy's not going to ask for my number or ask me out on a date the first time I dance for him. So why am I at fault for thinking he's category 1 until he proves me wrong? After I discover his true intentions, I don't believe that he suddently switched categories, I realize he was hiding his real nature or hadn't exposed it to me yet.

I think the point some of us are making is that you shouldn't have to wait until someone asks you for your number. At least once a guy has come in to see you more than once, your default assumption should be that he's Category 2 or 3 rather than Category 1. (Some would say that as soon as someone spends a lot of money on you in one sitting, you should assume he's Category 2 or 3 intead of Category 1.)

Originally posted by Danielle
JL- Just for conversation's sake, although everyone's correct in saying that it doesn't really matter as far as this discussions concerned, I do distinguish between guys who are seeking mileage and guys who are girlfriend shopping. The girlfriend shoppers are pretty pathetic while the mileage seekers are trying to get more bang for their buck.

At least SOMEONE here understands me.

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by Danielle
I would be far more impressed if you could get Slinky and I to ever agree on something.

It's tough with stuff like this lying around:


Originally posted by slinkybender
I don't dispute that category #1 guys exist,

Originally posted by Danielle
you're wrong in saying that they don't exist.

[JackT]

Why should Danielle's default assumption be that any guy that sees her more than once is a Category 2er or 3er, not a 1er?

Many of my college friends whom I still keep in touch with are strip club "regulars" and true Category 1ers. They don't look for extras or girlfriends at a strip club. (patheticness is in the eye of the beholder)

Doesn't it all boil down to WHO should bear the risk/burden of disclosure of one's true intentions? If Danielle keeps offering $20 lap dances, and the guy keeps buying them . . . I don't think it's so wrong to assume he's a Category 1er UNTIL he discloses that he is not.

[greyfox]

Originally posted by justlooking
Whoops.

Should have been, "I was gonna say that if it isn't a percentage in more than single digits . . . ."

Sorry.

I'm more confused.The original quote made more sense to me.

[justlooking]

I'm living in CloudCuckooLand, but I don't think the issue is who should bear the risk of disclosure. Since I don't think Danielle has any duty of disclosure. It's more like:

1. What should Danielle's expectations be (which in a way matters more than the customer's, since she's the one who's trying to make a living)? Why should she allow herself to constantly be surprised (as she seems to say she is) that things keep turning out in a way that's consistent with the guy who she's assumed was a Category 1's having been Category 2 or 3 all along?

2. To the extent Danielle cares about behaving ethically and not misleading people (or at least being careful about the extent to which she misleads people), she should be aware of what their real-life expectations are and tailor her conduct in accordance with them (as opposed to the ones she wishes they had but which they don't). Unless Danielle correctly judges what these guys' expectations are, she has NO CONTROL WHATSOEVER over the extent to which she's misleading them. (BTW, that applies to real-life situations as well.)

[justlooking]

Originally posted by greyfox
I'm more confused.The original quote made more sense to me.

Oh sorry. You're right. I got it right the first time. I've REALLY got to break this double-negative habit, since even I get confused by my own stuff.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
I'm living in CloudCuckooLand

please the vision of you in a himation just flashed before my eyes.

[justlooking]

I thought we agreed we weren't going to talk about that.

[h. von bingen]

well you promised you'd given it up.

[JackT]

But instead of constantly worrying about whether her patrons are continuously misconstruing her non-misleading statements and actions, why shouldn't her default be to assume that her non-misleading statements and actions should be interpreted as she intends them (until these guys give her a reason to believe otherwise)?

Some strippers are "clean" girls and "good" girls (we can argue over percentages, but that really doesn't matter) -- and strip club patrons are often delusional in hearing and perceiving things the way they WANT them to be. UNDISCLOSED Category 2ers and 3ers are putting themselves in peril by keeping their Category 2er or 3er status Undisclosed... that's their burden, as I see it. Danielle cannot be faulted for not "delving deeply" into each client off the bat to make sure that he is not a Category 2er (wolf) or 3er (wolf) in a Category 1er's (sheep's) clothing.

[Danielle]

Originally posted by JackT
Why should Danielle's default assumption be that any guy that sees her more than once is a Category 2er or 3er, not a 1er?

Many of my college friends whom I still keep in touch with are strip club "regulars" and true Category 1ers. They don't look for extras or girlfriends at a strip club. (patheticness is in the eye of the beholder)

Doesn't it all boil down to WHO should bear the risk/burden of disclosure of one's true intentions? If Danielle keeps offering $20 lap dances, and the guy keeps buying them . . . I don't think it's so wrong to assume he's a Category 1er UNTIL he discloses that he is not.

thank you, Jack. There really are some guys who come in regularly with friends of theirs and just hang out. They buy dances and know a lot of the girls, but don't hassle them for phone numbers or outside rendevous. These are true category 1ers who are also consistent customers. And believe it or not, I've often made a lot of money off of a customer in one sitting and he must be a category 1 (because I never saw him again and he made not mention of anything extra). Some people just have money to burn, I guess.
I suppose it is wrong for me to assume someone's a category 1 just because I haven't figured them out yet. I guess I shouldn't categorize right away at all. But I don't agree with JL's idea that a guy who spends a lot or visits often can't be a category 1, because from experience I can tell you that's not true. And as for allowing myself to be surprised, how can one prevent that from happening? I'm not psychic, most of the time people don't come right out and say, "oh, by the way, all these dances I'm buying are an effort to get you to leave with me tonight." Because a lot of times guys do buy a lot of dances and then say " Thanks, that was fun." and then leave. Maybe I just haven't developed the sixth sense for this shit yet.

[justlooking]

Because they ARE misleading. That's the nature of what she does, remember? You can't be COMPLETELY honest "clean" stripper and make any money at all. So Danielle pretends to find guys interesting/attractive/whatever when she doesn't. She makes eyes at them. She brushes against them. She talks about sex. Those actions are all misleading in a sense, in that she doesn't intend to follow up. (N.B.: I don't see anything wrong with them. But they're misleading.)

So clearly, there are misleading things Danielle might do that she can live with (and I'm not criticizing her for it). There are perhaps misleading things she might do that she can't. But she can't put herself on either side of the line if she's blinding herself to what the customers are thinking.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Danielle
But I don't agree with JL's idea that a guy who spends a lot or visits often can't be a category 1, . . . .

I didn't say he can't be.

We're talking probabilities here, for purposes of determining default assumptions.

The proper default assumption is the one that's most likely to be true (as opposed to the one you'd most like to be true).

But listen, Danielle, you know more about your business than I do. If it's true that you make a lot of money from non-repeat one-offs, or from repeat customers who don't try to take things further, then I'm wrong. But (and I'm not trying to be harsh) you've been all over the map on that.

[Danielle]

Originally posted by JackT
But instead of constantly worrying about whether her patrons are continuously misconstruing her non-misleading statements and actions, why shouldn't her default be to assume that her non-misleading statements and actions should be interpreted as she intends them (until these guys give her a reason to believe otherwise)?

Some strippers are "clean" girls and "good" girls (we can argue over percentages, but that really doesn't matter) -- and strip club patrons are often delusional in hearing and perceiving things the way they WANT them to be. UNDISCLOSED Category 2ers and 3ers are putting themselves in peril by keeping their Category 2er or 3er status Undisclosed... that's their burden, as I see it. Danielle cannot be faulted for not "delving deeply" into each client off the bat to make sure that he is not a Category 2er (wolf) or 3er (wolf) in a Category 1er's (sheep's) clothing.

Yes, and if they want to wear the sheep's clothing for whatever reason then they're really wasting their time and money by doing so. Just as I'm direct with people I expect them to be direct with me. Don't avoid asking me whether or not I provide extras in the champagne room and then take me in there and get all pissed off because I won't. Be a little more forthright with your intentions and everyone will be happier.

[justlooking]

One BIG misunderstanding JackT and I had earlier in this thread was based on what I can only call his adversarial view of relations between strippers and customers. I don't think guys are trying to fool you or are "wearing sheeps clothing" just because they don't come out and say right off the bat that they want to sleep with you. It's not like guys (guys like me, anyway) go into a club and think, "I'm gonna fool this stripper into having sex with me without disclosing my intentions." Among other things, maybe the guys are waiting to see what your (the stripper's) responses are over a period of time.

[Danielle]

Originally posted by justlooking
Because they ARE misleading. That's the nature of what she does, remember? You can't be COMPLETELY honest "clean" stripper and make any money at all. So Danielle pretends to find guys interesting/attractive/whatever when she doesn't. She makes eyes at them. She brushes against them. She talks about sex. Those actions are all misleading in a sense, in that she doesn't intend to follow up. (N.B.: I don't see anything wrong with them. But they're misleading.)

So clearly, there are misleading things Danielle might do that she can live with (and I'm not criticizing her for it). There are perhaps misleading things she might do that she can't. But she can't put herself on either side of the line if she's blinding herself to what the customers are thinking.

But i don't know what the customers are thinking most of time! (Besides that they'd probably like to fuck me)
I understand that I'm putting on an act at work, but I only think that act can be described as "misleading" if the customer has absolutely no clue what a strip club is all about. (Yes, now we're on this again.)

[justlooking]

We're on this again because it's the whole point.

But please understand. What I'm trying to say is that all that stuff I describe is (IMO) "OK" misleading precisely because, as you say, everybody knows that's what strip clubs are all about.

What I'm trying to say is that you can't gague the propriety of other stuff you do (which you might not even realize you're doing) unless you're aware of what the customer is thinking.

[JackT]

Originally posted by justlooking
The proper default assumption is the one that's most likely to be true (as opposed to the one you'd most like to be true).


This I agree with.... And it's very succinctly and simply stated.

Case in point: The ********* escort who advertises that she charges for time and companionship only, and then doesn't do a g-d damn thing but sit and talk during the session is a RIP-OFF scam artist, in my book. (because internet prostitution has its own assumed rules and norms which should shape the "proper default assumptions").

[Danielle]

Originally posted by justlooking
One BIG misunderstanding JackT and I had earlier in this thread was based on what I can only call his adversarial view of relations between strippers and customers. I don't think guys are trying to fool you or are "wearing sheeps clothing" just because they don't come out and say right off the bat that they want to sleep with you. It's not like guys (guys like me, anyway) go into a club and think, "I'm gonna fool this stripper into having sex with me without disclosing my intentions." Among other things, maybe the guys are waiting to see what your (the stripper's) responses are over a period of time.

I see, like if I drop hints in the conversation about making some money off of them outside?
Or they gauge my reaction to stories they tell about "friends" of their's who have given strippers money for sex acts?
That all makes sense to me.
ok. Now I must leave you all for now so I can hit the nail salon before it closes. After all, who the hell wants a dance from an ungroomed stripper?

[justlooking]

That stuff is so obvious as to be bush.

[JackT]

nice juxtaposition of the terms "ungroomed" and "bush"

[Danielle]

Originally posted by JackT
nice juxtaposition of the terms "ungroomed" and "bush"

Yes, I agree! ok, I'm really leaving now....God, I am such a fucking addict.

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by Danielle
But i don't know what the customers are thinking most of time! (Besides that they'd probably like to fuck me)

See... you know it even if you don't want to admit you know it.

Originally posted by justlooking
What should Danielle's expectations be (which in a way matters more than the customer's, since she's the one who's trying to make a living)? Why should she allow herself to constantly be surprised (as she seems to say she is) that things keep turning out in a way that's consistent with the guy who she's assumed was a Category 1's having been Category 2 or 3 all along?


From Tony Robbins: One of the definitions of insanity is when someone does the same thing over and over again, but expects the results to be different.

[justlooking]

You mean like the way you keep posting and posting that quote even though it never changes the way anybody else does anything?

[SFSF]

[justlooking]

You know, getting back to JackT's "wolf in sheep's clothing" point, I guess I never think I'm "withholding my true intentions" from any stripper because I just assume that they assume that any customer wants to have sex with them. It never occurred to me, but I guess that's what these threads are about.

[Sinful7]

Okay I am the first to admit that Level 3 (escorts) is not
my speciality. I am a level 2 (Sex Entertainer) and I am learning
about level 3. I want to know all about it (Just so I not accussed
of getting off topic; can someone direct me to further information
on Level 3 {pricing and experiences}) ....this is the one level
I really haven't made it to, but in my experiences I was well
rewarded ( I guess my experience where like I really want to be with you, lets do something and than have a little fun) and
as you clearly made it sound that when it comes to turning a trick
it is harder and less rewarding. I am sorry! I am speaking from
girl perception of a 2 Level that went to Level 3 was treated very
well.(..and not 300)! I work with a girl who clients take her on weekend business trips and writing the whole thing off. I personally have done it with a special few and I tell you I was rewarded greatly. I guess that why by post of level 3 is more glamorous than what it is, because my experience hasn't been bad at all, to the point it made me curious about moving up a level, but from the way you make it sound I'd rather keep it for
special cliental that interested in my studies and want to
help me test my hypothesis.

Danielle I didn't mean that Strippers made less, because I
bought my house in Missouri from a year of work a Gentle
Men Quaters. I feel like I make more money as a Sexual
Entertainer is less time and time is money. So I just
did a little time equation in an hour I say a stripper (using
statics from my own numbers and my girlfriend in LI makes
a 100hr) I make a hundred on average in 20 minutes, I didn't
know that Level 3 had a whole different math that I
won't suggest a value because I don't have the knowledge
to draw a accurate value of income in an hour.

***Now I know customers can be really generous but I am
talking about a regular day.
.....but my income has doubled at level 2, so I figured it
would triple at level 3, but assumption proven false, I
need further data

[justlooking]

It would be interesting if you posted a query about what full-service prostitutes make on the General Board.

Unfortunately, I don't think you'll get many responses (much less any honest ones) on a mixed public board like this.

[elliot16]

Originally posted by justlooking
One BIG misunderstanding JackT and I had earlier in this thread was based on what I can only call his adversarial view of relations between strippers and customers. I don't think guys are trying to fool you or are "wearing sheeps clothing" just because they don't come out and say right off the bat that they want to sleep with you. It's not like guys (guys like me, anyway) go into a club and think, "I'm gonna fool this stripper into having sex with me without disclosing my intentions." Among other things, maybe the guys are waiting to see what your (the stripper's) responses are over a period of time.

A client can never be direct in his intent to buy sex from a dancer as this intent is inimical to the most basic and powerful rule of denial which stripper's repeat over and over to themselves and to each other namely that sell the illusion of sex and not sex itself. It is through this mantra that they can maintain the artificial separation in their own minds that they are dancers and not prostitutes. Thus they maintain a fantasy of "cleanliness" and superiority.

When such a primitive defense mechanism is in place there is no way a direct assault can me made with any likelihood of positive results. It woud be as easy to convince the psychotic that he is not Napoleon or that Aliens are not beaming evil thoughts into his head. Therefore, if a man wants to have sex with a dancer he must be circuitous in his approach because, above all else, she needs to maintain the illusion that she is not a prostitute.

[justlooking]

You're just as adversarial as JackT.

I guess hvb is right and I'm just deluding myself.

[elliot16]

Originally posted by justlooking
You're just as adversarial as JackT.

I guess hvb is right and I'm just deluding myself.

It's not being adversarial. It's not just that it's not in your nature to ask a woman directly how much she wants for sex it's that you know that that's a losing play. It's poor opening game strategy in a strip club.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Danielle
it's the good girls who make the best bad girls.

DITTO!

[Sinful7]

[ Therefore, if a man wants to have sex with a dancer he must be circuitous in his approach because, above all else, she needs to maintain the illusion that she is not a prostitute. [/B][/QUOTE]

That pinning the tail on the donkey, a stripper doesn't see
herself as a prostitute (with reaserch to Danielle and My suprise
Webster dictionary said anyone who solcits money for unworthy
act {selling sex being unworthy}). So by definition all levels of
Sex Entertainment for sell is prostitution, but for common
terminology prostitute will be used a someone that sells sexual
intercourse. If you call a Stripper a prostitute she will be very
insulted, she sees herself as a "Dancer". Like that Tina Turner
song "private dancer".

I am telling you guys that if you want more the way to a
women g-string is to get inside her head.

Women are attracted to men that are providers, that are
head strong, if they believe you can change there life, brighten
a light into a dark area, she will follow your advances. Why
do you think girls hook up with guys with alot of money
because they believe that money will change their life.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
I guess hvb is right and I'm just deluding myself.

call me cassandra, everyone else does.

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
call me cassandra, everyone else does.

Hi Cassandra, Welcome back from London.

[h. von bingen]

not london, but thanks.

[JackT]

Originally posted by justlooking
Because they ARE misleading. That's the nature of what she does, remember? . . . Danielle pretends to find guys interesting/attractive/whatever when she doesn't. She makes eyes at them. She brushes against them. She talks about sex. Those actions are all misleading in a sense, in that she doesn't intend to follow up. (N.B.: I don't see anything wrong with them. But they're misleading.)

For the purposes of this discusion, let's draw a distinction between "providing a purchased fantasy" (e.g., making eyes at them, brushing up against them, telling them they are interesting/attractive) and what I previously referred to as "misleading statements and actions" (i.e., leading them to believe that, contrary to her intentions, she will eventually provide extras to them).

[Danielle]

Thank you for making that distinction Jack, although I try to explain it over and over, i don't think some people here really get it. There's a big difference between doing what is normally expected of strippers (ok, I know I've opened a can of worms her, but follow me anyway) and outright lying to people about what you intend to provide them with. While I might innocently flirt with them and build up their egos, I don't give people the "false promise of sex" which has often been talked about here and which I know some of coworkers use to make money.

[Danielle]

Originally posted by elliot16
A client can never be direct in his intent to buy sex from a dancer as this intent is inimical to the most basic and powerful rule of denial which stripper's repeat over and over to themselves and to each other namely that sell the illusion of sex and not sex itself. It is through this mantra that they can maintain the artificial separation in their own minds that they are dancers and not prostitutes. Thus they maintain a fantasy of "cleanliness" and superiority.

When such a primitive defense mechanism is in place there is no way a direct assault can me made with any likelihood of positive results. It woud be as easy to convince the psychotic that he is not Napoleon or that Aliens are not beaming evil thoughts into his head. Therefore, if a man wants to have sex with a dancer he must be circuitous in his approach because, above all else, she needs to maintain the illusion that she is not a prostitute.

Yup. If you actually want to have a sex for money relationship with a stripper don't ever make them feel like that's precisely what's going on. JL has given some very interesting insight into the whole approach of this issue in previous posts. It is a correct assumption that MOST strippers are delusional about working in the sex industry.
Because I know that Slinky is now going to jump all over me for having said that (because I've always maintained that strip clubs are about selling a fantasy), allow me to say that I am realistic. I know that lots of strippers see customers outside of the club for money. I don't know what percentage of strippers are party to this, but I know that it happens a lot. that said, when I say that strip clubs are about fantasy, I guess what I mean is that INSIDE the club it is unfair for a customer to expect anything addtional. (Unless your'e at a place like the dish). Let it be noted that I have also always maintained that there is nothing wrong with a customer inquiring into the possiblity of getting extras inside or out of the club. Just don't be a jerk about it. I have learned an awful lot since the beginning of this thread.

[Danielle]

Originally posted by Sinful7
[ Therefore, if a man wants to have sex with a dancer he must be circuitous in his approach because, above all else, she needs to maintain the illusion that she is not a prostitute.

That pinning the tail on the donkey, a stripper doesn't see
herself as a prostitute (with reaserch to Danielle and My suprise
Webster dictionary said anyone who solcits money for unworthy
act {selling sex being unworthy}). So by definition all levels of
Sex Entertainment for sell is prostitution, but for common
terminology prostitute will be used a someone that sells sexual
intercourse. If you call a Stripper a prostitute she will be very
insulted, she sees herself as a "Dancer". Like that Tina Turner
song "private dancer".

I am telling you guys that if you want more the way to a
women g-string is to get inside her head.

Women are attracted to men that are providers, that are
head strong, if they believe you can change there life, brighten
a light into a dark area, she will follow your advances. Why
do you think girls hook up with guys with alot of money
because they believe that money will change their life. [/B][/QUOTE]

7- I think that what these girls are really looking for when they hook up with these guys is a free ride for awhile (possibly for a long time) and some expensive gifts. I've never dated a wealthy guy, but something tells me it's not the head-strongness that immediately pulls them in.

[Danielle]

So I think that now is the time for me to explore the specifics of 7's career. I was wondering if you'd be so kind as to answer some question for and quench my curiosity.

First of all, about the money thing, I've been told that "dances" at your establishment go by 10 minute intervals and that customers purchase single, double, or triple dances. Do you have guys waiting on you all the time so you're constantly making money? that scenario is hard for me to imagine because at my job there's a whole lot of down time when there are no customers, or at least not any who are available or spending money. How does it work? Do the guys come in and put their name in for a dance with you at the front desk or something and then wait at the bar?

Also, while I understand that you really enjoy your job, I'm sure that you must have your fair share of asshole customers, like we all do. Since your are in a room alone with a guy and the door is locked, what happens if the guy starts to behave in a way that makes you uncomfortable? For example, I don't know whether or not you allow people to touch your chocha, but what if you tell a guy "no" and he keeps grabbing at it every chance he gets? Do you get a bouncer and end the dance? Do you still get paid? And what happens if a guy is taking a really long time to get off for some reason, do you just keep charging him according to the time limit thing?

Are there girls you work with who offer less in the way of services than you do? If so, how do they fare compared to you and your "A-list" friends? Are there rivalries and jealousy between you guys?

FYI- If you want more info about escorts, you may want to check out some of the other threads on the board, like the ones under "The High End Room" category. I don't know very much about escorts, either. Though it has always intrigued me, especially the way the agencies work. I have heard that working for an agency has a disadvantage in that your have to give such a large percentage of what the guy is paying for the session to the house. For someone like you who has lots of connections and regulars, you could probably do without working for an agency if you were interested in exploring some "level 3" work. That way you could keep all the money for yourself and only see people you knew and were comfortable with.

[Thorn]

Originally posted by justlooking
NOT a strip club.

(I'll bet even slinkybender will be with me on this one.)

Yes. You are right.

[Thorn]

Originally posted by Sinful7
Why
do you think girls hook up with guys with alot of money
because they believe that money will change their life.

OK. But even if I buy this, which to some extent I do, how does it explain so many strippers with loser BF's? You know, the skinny, long haired, usually guitar playing, "my band is going to make it some day and then I'll pay you back for taking care of me by selling sex to strangers", types. Or the, "I can't find a job. Now fix me a sandwich and get me a beer.", types.

Its so cliche its as pathetic as any of the PL's.

Be honest 7. You dance. How many of your co-workers do you know who have these loser types as boy friends?

Now, contrast that to what you said quoted above. Why do they apply that logic only in the strip-clubs, and not to their lives away from them?

[Thorn]

Originally posted by Danielle
I guess what I mean is that INSIDE the club it is unfair for a customer to expect anything addtional.

Ok, Danielle, this is exactly where you go wrong.

Follow.

Why should you feel it is unfair for me to expect anything addtional when time and time again we find from our own experiences that "addtional" is on the menu?

This is what JL, Slinky, and others are trying to tell you.

In the very clubs you are working in how it is HIGHLY likily that someone is getting a BJ during your shift [several somebodies, truth be told]. Someone is problably getting full service. Management knows it, and in some cases directly condones it [because management believes that this client is something special, either because of his status, or his spending].

So, you see. Its basically that you don't know what is happening inside your own club. And there is no reason you should, because management [if its doing the right thing] isn't going to twist the arm of a dancer to do something they can see she doesn't do, so they don't point these "special" customers in your direction.

You never hear about it, so you think it doesn't exist inside the club. Since people like JL, Slinky, and myself have been inside such clubs, pointed at these dancers, had the BJ's, F/S, etc, inside the clubs, we are telling you that it does, indeed, take place. Even though you don't know about it.

Understand?

[JackT]

Thorn: Why should you feel it is unfair for me to expect anything addtional when time and time again we find from our own experiences that "addtional" is on the menu?

Yeah, but Thorn, don't you think it's a bit presumptious to think that because bjs and sex are available from some of the dancers in a club that a patron should EXPECT that every dancer there offers it?

While your point that "Danielle doesn't know what is happening inside her own club" is well taken, by the same token YOU don't know what is happening inside of every dancer's head. (You certainly don't need ME to tell you that not everyone's "limits" or "rules" are the same) Expectation of extras from a particular dancer in a mainstream strip club? I don't think so.

[atahboy]

Dont you think the management would tell the girls what exactly what is off limits? And by inference what is in limits

[JackT]

Originally posted by atahboy
Dont you think the management would tell the girls what exactly what is off limits? And by inference what is in limits
From what I'm reading here, it really doesn't work that way. A particular club may one set of limits it advertises, another it tells its dancers, and another it tells its regular (or big spender) patrons, and another still it allows for its very big spender VIPs. But regardless of that (and the point which I think is being lost on many here), the only important set of limits that matters in a stripper-client transaction is the set of limits that the STRIPPER and CLIENT agree on... not any club management edicts.

[justlooking]

Actually, I'd be surprised if much beyond handjobs went on with any regularity inside the club where I think Danielle now works. Seems logistically difficult.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Danielle
(ok, I know I've opened a can of worms her[e] . . . .)

Of course, that can of worms IS the discussion.

Look, I want to be clear. I don't disagree with the distinction you and JackT draw at all.

My only point is and ever has been this.

You start by doing things that are misleading but which we all agree are OK. But what happens is, you eventually get used to the idea of misleading people to get money from them. So maybe you begin to do things that aren't OK, because you start slipping down the slope without quite realizing it. For that reason, I think that in such situations, you have to be very careful, and very aware of all the ramifications of what you're doing, in order to avoid sliding into conduct that might be questionable. And eventually doing things as a matter of course that you once would have considered wrong.

Two examples:

1. Those Stripper Web threads where everyone is advising that stripper who played that guy out of $30,000 how to secret her assets, or how to publicly shame the guy's wife, or how to profit from the publicity the lawsuit might engender, but only the "trolls" are suggesting there's anything wrong with what the stripper did in the first place. Those people are so used to hustling money that they don't see any limits to what's acceptable.

2. You, when you started posting here. You yourself acknowledge that your feeling for the ethical contours of what you do has changed since you entered into discussions here. Now it might seem that many of us keep banging things over your head when you've already gotten the point, but OUR point is that a "clean" stripper by definition lives so close to the edge of acceptable ethical conduct that she has to keep constantly aware, even hyperaware, of the implications of what she's doing, or else she'll slip over the edge without realizing it. (This is the same approach I take to my own profession, BTW, FWIW.)

[JackT]

Originally posted by justlooking
For that reason, I think that in such situations, you have to be very careful, and very aware of all the ramifications of what you're doing, in order to avoid sliding into conduct that might be questionable.

'Tis a very noble feat, if it can be successfully accomplished.

JL, what percentage of "clean" strippers would you say do not have "misleading statements and actions"* as part of their repertoire? Single-digit percentage?

*i.e., leading customers to believe that, contrary to intention, extras will eventually be available to them

[justlooking]

I'm the wrong guy to ask. I usually end up "dating" them.

[Waist Product]

whats the fun in "dating" a clean stripper? they dont put out none/

[justlooking]

What the fuck are you talking about?

OF COURSE they do.

[JackT]

JL, I'm confused... I thought we went over this in a previous thread ("So, why don't you give me your number?") -- clean strippers (by definition) do not provide sex to their customers.

My question above was what percentage of these "clean" strippers are honest? (and, if I understand you correctly, you are not the person to answer that question... presumably because you have never met a truly "clean" stripper?)

[justlooking]

Something like that. (I'd never say "never".)

(Actually, I thought "clean" only applied to what they do or don't do in the club. It has nothing to do with what they may on occassion do outside the club, on their own personal time, with one or a couple of customers they really feel comfortable with.)

(Didn't Danielle draw something like that distinction in a recent post?)

[justlooking]

That's why I think we keep misunderstanding each other when we talk about seeing strippers outside the club, "wolf in sheep's clothing", etc.

You keep presenting it as one or both sides scheming for position and misrepresenting their intentions (the stripper presenting herself as "clean", the customer hiding his intention to get her to give significant extras).

That's not it at all. I'd say it's more (from the customer's perspective) like getting to know someone well enough so (a) you know whether you like her enough to want to spend time with her and (b) she gets comfortable enough with you that she'd consider doing things with you that she does in real life but doesn't regularly do professionally.

Do you see what I'm saying?

[JackT]

Maybe it was the "Why do we make people feel GUILTY" thread where I advocated a definition of "clean" that didn't depend on venue...

I stated:
I agree that bringing "following club rules" into the mix needlessly complicates things. It is not clear most of the time what the REAL rules are.

I propose a definition of "clean stripper" that isn't dependent upon venue. (special or not)


Therefore,
A clean stripper, by MY definition, will not provide sex to a customer. ("sex" includes hjs and even grinding to orgasm)

To me, as long as it's commercial or transactional in nature (i.e., not a BF/GF relationship), if they're providing extras to customers, in or out of the club, on their "personal time" or during club time, they are NOT "clean" strippers.



(I wish I wasn't too lazy to look up how to link to a UG post)

[danger-us]

Originally posted by Thorn
Ok, Danielle, this is exactly where you go wrong.

Follow.

Why should you feel it is unfair for me to expect anything addtional when time and time again we find from our own experiences that "addtional" is on the menu?

Understand?

I would say there is a difference between what is on the menu of the establishment itself (like Asscon) and what is on the menu for each individual dancer/stripper at any given mainstream club.

The management of clubs, like the one Danielle works in, usually do NOT condone activities that will bring LE heat on them.

Places like Asscon are different because they are catering to UG types who are expecting extras. Places like that are willing to take the risk. This is how they distinguish themselves from the rest. Most mainstream clubs won't take the risk.

You can get extras in mainstream clubs, but I also think it is presumptuous to expect them.

The menus are set by each individual.

[justlooking]

I think I disagree with that.

(BFD)

[justlooking]

Originally posted by danger-us
The management of clubs, like the one Danielle works in, usually do NOT condone activities that will bring LE heat on them.

Although I agree with your post as a whole, I disagree with that statement. I think management at most clubs condones a lot more than a lot of people think. Certainly, Danielle left one club because of that.

[JackT]

OK. In your view, JL, is there really no such thing as a "clean" stripper (using my definition)? I.e., everyone has their price for (or ways of getting comfortable with) extras for customers outside the club?

[justlooking]

I would agree with that if you modified the absolutes.

[danger-us]

When we are talking about "dating" clean strippers, are we assuming money is being exchanged?

[justlooking]

If it weren't, "'dating'" wouldn't be in quotes.

[danger-us]

Originally posted by justlooking
Although I agree with your post as a whole, I disagree with that statement. I think management at most clubs condones a lot more than a lot of people think. Certainly, Danielle left one club because of that.

As I recall, Danielle left the club because of what the management allowed for the special regular customers. Isn't that different from what management is willing to risk with any joe blow walking in the place? Potentially getting the place closed down?

[JackT]

Originally posted by danger-us
When we are talking about "dating" clean strippers, are we assuming money is being exchanged?

glances, money, some wittee repartee, later some food and beverage, and eventually some bodily fluids, maybe even a phone number or two.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by danger-us
As I recall, Danielle left the club because of what the management allowed for the special regular customers. Isn't that different from what management is willing to risk with any joe blow walking in the place? Potentially getting the place closed down?

You didn't say draw that distinction in your post. I'm also not sure it matters.

(Although Danielle later said that the reason she left that club is that serious extras were freely available to regular Joe Blow customers walking into the place -- which if I have the club right was frankly news to me.)

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking

That's not it at all. I'd say it's more (from the customer's perspective) like getting to know someone well enough so (a) you know whether you like her enough to want to spend time with her and (b) she gets comfortable enough with you that she'd consider doing things with you that she does in real life but doesn't regularly do professionally.


Please correct me if this analyis is incorrect.

1. You pay for sex so that you can consider it not cheating on your wife.
2. But you prefer paying someone for sex, who normally (or openly or often?) does not take money for sex.
3. As a consequence of this need, you end up "dating" strippers -- the dates hopefully culminating in paid sex.
4. You believe this behaviour is distinguishable from having extramarital noncommercial sex vis-a-vis marital fidelity.

this is not a judgment, these are genuine questions.

1. Do you really believe this?
2. Has it become less plausible over the years?
3. Has your behaviour progressed from clearly commercial sex (i.e. prostitutes) to quasi-commercial sex (i.e. good girls gone bad)?
4. Is this a cause for concern on your part?

I'm asking because I've always had problems with spirit/letter of law issues. I would have a hard time convincing myself that dating someone as long as you ultimately pay them is different from dating someone if you don't ultimately pay them. It seems a distinction without a difference.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
1. Do you really believe this?

Yes.


Originally posted by h. von bingen
2. Has it become less plausible over the years?

Yes.


Originally posted by h. von bingen
3. Has your behaviour progressed from clearly commercial sex (i.e. prostitutes) to quasi-commercial sex (i.e. good girls gone bad)?

Yes.

(If you call that "progress".)

Originally posted by h. von bingen
4. Is this a cause for concern on your part?

Only when I think about it.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
4. Only when I think about it.

1. How?
2. How?
3. How?
4. When?

btw, have i mentioned lately that you're fascinating?

[justlooking]

1. I have little reason to believe that my "dates" would be seeing me without the payment. It may not be sufficient, but it's necessary. That fact keeps the whole thing unreal.

2. OTOH, I'm not morally blind. I know why I do what I do and what the implications are.

3. I'm not sure how this leads to a "how".

4. As infrequently as possible.

BTW -- not as much as you are, I'm sure.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
not as much as you are, I'm sure.

THAT'S a good line to use on les girls.

[h. von bingen]

btw, this is what i say when i want to pick up girls.

(blinking my big brown ones a few times).

you are soooo pretty.

works every time. hombre cannot believe it.

[justlooking]

Oh come on.

If you're a woman, you can probably say just about anything and the girl'll go home with you.

[JackT]

JL, I am really disapointed in you. (just kidding)

Seriously, though, I was CERTAIN that your answer to #1 wasn't yes. After all the doses of reality you dole out to fellow UG posters, and all of the discussions about "what is cheating?," you consider paid sex not cheating on your wife?????????

[justlooking]

I'm not allowed to be a deluded hypocrite just like everybody else?

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
Oh come on.

If you're a woman, you can probably say just about anything and the girl'll go home with you.

shhh that's my secret!

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
I'm not allowed to be a deluded hypocrite just like everybody else?

see that's what i'm trying to get at. i have a hard time being a deluded hypocrite. i can do hypocrite fairly, VERY well actually. i have a hard time deluding myself and i rarely lie. ergo, the practice of law is very very hard for me.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
If you're a woman, you can probably say just about anything and the girl'll go home with you.

i never say: i'll take you to a hip restaurant and then give you cash for sex. although, if someone said it to me, i'd consider it a compliment.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
I would have a hard time convincing myself that dating someone as long as you ultimately pay them is different from dating someone if you don't ultimately pay them. It seems a distinction without a difference.

In another fairly recent thread, the one about jm's relationship with the Korean Kimmie (i.e., not HH), we had a subthread discussion about how important/unimportant money and material wealth is to various people. This is why you don't see the distinction; money just isn't a fundamental enough part of your view of the world to transform the moral nature of what is happening. It is also why I am a "dreamboy" in a sense; giving a woman money for sex does not fundamentally change the way I view and relate to her, sexually or otherwise. I can intellectually understand, though not really empathize with, the (more common probably) world view in which money is so important that its presence or absence is all important in defining the nature of an interaction. It still sort of flabbergasts me though; in a sense I don't believe in money, and I suspect you don't either.

-Ww

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
In another fairly recent thread, the one about jm's relationship with the Korean Kimmie (i.e., not HH), we had a subthread discussion about how important/unimportant money and material wealth is to various people. This is why you don't see the distinction; money just isn't a fundamental enough part of your view of the world to transform the moral nature of what is happening. It is also why I am a "dreamboy" in a sense; giving a woman money for sex does not fundamentally change the way I view and relate to her, sexually or otherwise. I can intellectually understand, though not really empathize with, the (more common) probably world view in which money is so important that its presence or absence is all important in defining the nature of an interaction. It still sort of flabbergasts me though; in a sense I don't believe in money, and I suspect you don't either.

-Ww

well i do think there may be a difference b/t going to a straight-up prostitute and having and affair w/r/t the continuum of cheating (if there is a continuum -- a question that i have not fully resolved for myself).

however, given that jl does so much to make these encounters look like genuine affairs and then can flip some internal switch b/c a couple of hundred dollars at the end of the night has changed hands . . .

i can't believe someone as thoughtful and analytical as he is can convince himself of that. I CAN'T BELIEVE IT! (although i do think he is telling the truth.)

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
however, given that jl does so much to make these encounters look like genuine affairs and then can flip some internal switch b/c a couple of hundred dollars at the end of the night has changed hands . . .

i can't believe someone as thoughtful and analytical as he is can convince himself of that. I CAN'T BELIEVE IT! (although i do think he is telling the truth.)

jl, your pardon for talking about you in the third person even though you are "present" in a sense. It is an oddity of ettiquete on public net forums, as you doubtless realize.

Imo, it is not about convincing himself of anything or about being thoughtful/analytic nor even about being delude and hypocritical. Rather it is because money is so real and important in his world view that it actually does fundamentally change his perceptions of and feelings about the woman and his interactions with her. I would make the analogy to confession for a Catholic; it can mean virtually nothing to a non-Catholic, can seem like little more than a silly and vapid ritual, and yet be incredibly important to a devout member of that faith wrt feelings of guilt, for example.

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

Btw, I do see a difference between the sort of "cheating" that goes on in a romantic affair and the sort that is usually involved in seeing a provider. However, the difference is not the money, rather it is the emotions involved and the expectations (of one another) that are generated. I do not see much difference between seeing a provider and, say, having a casual and "empty" one-night stand with someone you meet in a bar.

-Ww

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
1. jl, your pardon for talking about you in the third person even though you are "present" in a sense. It is an oddity of ettiquete on public net forums, as you doubtless realize.

2. Imo, it is not about convincing himself of anything or about being thoughtful/analytic nor even about being delude and hypocritical. Rather it is because money is so real and important in his world view that it actually does fundamental change his perceptions of and feelings about the woman and his interactions with her. I would make the analogy to confession for a Catholic; it can mean virtually nothing to a non-Catholic and yet be incredibly important to a devout member of that faith wrt feelings of guilt, for example.

-Ww

1. are you kidding? he loves it. after all he is the most respected whoreboard poster in the northeastern corridor.

2. i like to think that while jl loves money (and so do i, it's way fun), it's not a yardstick of that kind. (if it did, it would fuck up all his post-boho bourgeouis liberal tendencies no?)

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
1. are you kidding? he loves it. after all he is the most respected whoreboard poster in the northeastern corridor.

2. i like to think that while jl loves money (and so do i, it's way fun), it's not a yardstick of that kind. (if it did, it would fuck up all his post-boho bourgeouis liberal tendencies no?)

1 - Yeah, I know. Net forums are all about the attention of strangers; it is the money of the online world, so to speak...the great motivator. But, the talking about someone in front of them is, for some unknown reason, the one thing I have never gotten used to about net interactions. I get mini-brain locks, and brain mini-locks too, trying to pick 2nd or 3rd person for the sentences.

2 - Fun is one thing; I have a blast with mine. Being a fundamental part of reality is another. But I dunno how jl actually relates to money; for one thing I don't follow his posts as closely as you. However, whether it applies to jl or not, I think I have described the reason that a huge number of guys are comfortable (guilt free, or more nearly so) with seeing prostitutes but would be eaten alive by guilt if they had a romantic affair. The more I think about it, the more I like my analogy with Catholic confession.

-Ww

[justlooking]

Originally posted by JackT
OK. In your view, JL, is there really no such thing as a "clean" stripper (using my definition)? I.e., everyone has their price for (or ways of getting comfortable with) extras for customers outside the club?

One other thing I want to clarify (even if it results in my saying something for about the millionth time), because Jack and I have been misunderstanding each other about this pretty consistently.

Your phrase "extras for customers outside the club" makes it sound like something the stripper does pretty routinely for a broad range of customers.

What I think (and I know I've said this more than once) is that even the "cleanest" stripper has one or two customers she'd consider seeing outside the club for money. But it's not routine or regular; not part of what she'd consider her menu. And IMO she isn't even deluding herself when she says that. (She'd only be deluding herself, IMO, if she starts insisting that, on the whole, that kind of thing doesn't happen regularly in strip clubs -- my understanding is that it happens very regularly, even if it's highly irregular for many of the individual strippers who do it.)

[JackT]

To my way of thinking, the money doesn't weigh into the morality equation one way or the other. (except, of course, the "stealing" or "misappropriation" of community assets aspect).

To me, EMOTIONAL capital invested weighs much more heavily in the morality equation. (which is why I completely agree with Ww's assessment that a casual and empty one-night-stand is generally equivalent to paying for sex with a prostitute).



hvb -- on your proposed continuum of cheating, which is worse, an affair, an empty one-night stand, or sex with a prostitute? I think arguments could be made for any of those being the worst.

[justlooking]

I guess it's like the continuum stretching from boiling your wife in oil to poisoning her with a painful slowacting drug.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by JackT
hvb -- on your proposed continuum of cheating, which is worse, an affair, an empty one-night stand, or sex with a prostitute? I think arguments could be made for any of those being the worst.

it's not my proposed continuum, it's what i have gleaned from reading here.

Originally posted by Wwanderer
for one thing I don't follow his posts as closely as you.

busted!

[JackT]

Originally posted by justlooking
One other thing I want to clarify (even if it results in my saying something for about the millionth time), because Jack and I have been misunderstanding each other about this pretty consistently.

You've said something about a million times and I still misunderstand? Damn, I'll try to read much more carefully this time. :)

Originally posted by justlooking

Your phrase "extras for customers outside the club" makes it sound like something the stripper does pretty routinely. I didn't mean for it to sound that way. To my way of thinking, a "clean" stripper is one that doesn't do extras for any of her patrons. Is there any stripper out there who will stick to a moral line in the sand of lap dances only, who won't even go on a "date" with a patron outside the club? (e.g., maybe she wants to remain steadfastly "faithful" to her spouse or BF).

So, you understand why your statement that "even the 'cleanest' stripper has one or two customers she'd consider seeing outside the club for money" is confusing to me. It vitiates my definition of
"clean stripper."

[Slinky Bender]

Why don't we use a stripper's version of what "clean" vs "dirty" is?:

Clean=me.
Dirty=any other dancer who sees a customer and offers anything in any way resembling sex.

[justlooking]

Sorry. I didn't mean it to come out that way. I said those things in other contexts than our exchanges, so I have no way of knowing whether you've read them. I meant to be apologizing to anyone who might have read that stuff already for the repitition.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by JackT
Is there any stripper out there who will stick to a moral line in the sand of lap dances only, who won't even go on a "date" with a patron outside the club? (e.g., maybe she wants to remain steadfastly "faithful" to her spouse or BF).

Of course there are.

The question is whether their percentage of the whole stripper population even reaches the double digits.

[justlooking]

PS --

What would you say about a stripper who plays customers into taking them shopping outside the club but won't have sex with them. "Clean" or "dirty"?

[jseah]

Originally posted by slinkybender
Why don't we use a stripper's version of what "clean" vs "dirty" is?:

Clean=me.
Dirty=any other dancer who sees a customer and offers anything in any way resembling sex.

shouldn't it be.....

Clean=me
Dirty=any other dancer who offers and does more than me

[JackT]

Originally posted by justlooking
Of course there are.

The question is whether their percentage of the whole stripper population even reaches the double digits. That was my original question! (I think I even speculated -- single digit percentage).

[justlooking]

I guess we both agree it's a good question.

[JackT]

Originally posted by justlooking
PS --

What would you say about a stripper who plays customers into taking them shopping outside the club but won't have sex with them. "Clean" or "dirty"?

She is "clean". Using previous terminology, she's also a "hustler." (vs. "non-hustler")

If she has a nasty attitude about the whole thing she can qualify as a "clean stripper bitch hustler."

[justlooking]

Gotcha.

Guess she's a "clean" "bad girl".

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by jseah
shouldn't it be.....

Clean=me
Dirty=any other dancer who offers and does more than me

That's the problem: it very often includes girls who do less.

[Danielle]

Originally posted by slinkybender
That's the problem: it very often includes girls who do less.

Oh come on, you guys. We only use that definition around our coworkers(!)

[Danielle]

Originally posted by justlooking
Actually, I'd be surprised if much beyond handjobs went on with any regularity inside the club where I think Danielle now works. Seems logistically difficult.

Uh huh. Case in point; One time I was in the champagne room with guy who spends a lot of money there (goes in the champagne room every time he comes in) and was sort of a regular of mine. He's a nice guy who's generally pretty respectful of my boundaries but I guess he was pretty drunk and at one point the manager walked in unoticed (the champagne room is set up like cubicles in an office) and claimed to have caught the guy with his hand on my crotch. In all honesty, I don't know if he actually did have his hand on my crotch at that precise moment, or if it even happened at all and maybe from his angle he just thought he saw something, but I'm sure if he did I was quick to brush it off. Unfortunately, my boss assumed the worst of me and you wouldn't believe the flack I caught for that. I mean I really got yelled at for what I think was really no big deal. Now, if this is the reaction that one gets from management for an unsolicited over-the-panties copping a feel then I really can't imagine another dancer getting away with a blowjob.
Although I suppose if you were really on the lookout you might be able to get away with a very hurried handjob. But trust me, girls get in trouble all the time at my club for doing shit like that. Often enough to make me think that management definetely does not condone or encourage that behavior.

[Danielle]

Originally posted by JackT
That was my original question! (I think I even speculated -- single digit percentage).

I think I know one of these stripper types. But her dances are kind of full-on, so does she still count?

[justlooking]

Geeeez, I've done more than that in the Champagne Room of that club (and I don't even go there anymore because I don't think it's remotely worth it).

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Danielle
I think I know one of these stripper types. But her dances are kind of full-on, so does she still count?

This is going to come across as very crude, but if her dances are insufficient to induce an orgasm in a normal (not overexcitable) guy, I'd say she's "clean".

[jseah]

Originally posted by justlooking
This is going to come across as very crude, but if her dances are insufficient to induce an orgasm in a normal (not overexcitable) guy, I'd say she's "clean".

I consider myself normal....but have never gotten an orgasm from "just a dance"......

[justlooking]

Well . . . .

[justlooking]

Not even after a series of Harmony-style full-contact full-straddle lap dances?

[Danielle]

Originally posted by justlooking
Geeeez, I've done more than that in the Champagne Room of that club (and I don't even go there anymore because I don't think it's remotely worth it).

This is gonna sound a little weird, but for some reason I've always felt like management at my club is more protective over certain girls than others.

[justlooking]

Long long ago at the Blue Angel, after a long series of full-contact full-straddle full-bore lap dances:

"Did anything happen to you physically during that last dance that makes you not want to continue?"

[jseah]

Originally posted by justlooking
Not even after a series of Harmony-style full-contact full-straddle lap dances?

Well......I have never been at the Harmony......so I can't compare......

although if you use the dances at AssCon for a comparison......not much different there from a "normal" lap dance. Actually, once a dance there gave me such a hard grind that it started to hurt and I thought it was gonna break off......couldn't wait for it to end.

but then again......I have never gotten off from "just a BJ" either.......

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by Danielle
Uh huh. Case in point; One time I was in the champagne ...... Now, if this is the reaction that one gets from management for an unsolicited over-the-panties copping a feel then I really can't imagine another dancer getting away with a blowjob.
... But trust me, girls get in trouble all the time at my club for doing shit like that. Often enough to make me think that management definetely does not condone or encourage that behavior.

Originally posted by Danielle
This is gonna sound a little weird, but for some reason I've always felt like management at my club is more protective over certain girls than others.

"Throughout the ages" a fairly high percentage of "club management" have had the policy (mostly unspoken) of not letting any girl do more in the Champagne Room than that girl was doing for them. I'd take an even money bet that there is at least one girl where you work who is blowing both customers and management.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by slinkybender
I'd take an even money bet that there is at least one girl where you work who is blowing both customers and management.

the key to a successful business is a "business plan." EEOS.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by jseah
but then again......I have never gotten off from "just a BJ" either.......

well that's the throwing down of a gauntlet if i ever heard one.

[jseah]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
well that's the throwing down of a gauntlet if i ever heard one.

:D are you taking the challenge?????

[h. von bingen]

frankly, i love a challenge like that. if i wasn't committed to hombre right now, i might just. you know i think the key is (as it is with most things) tenacity.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by jseah
Actually, once a dance there gave me such a hard grind that it started to hurt and I thought it was gonna break off......couldn't wait for it to end.

I HATE that.

(Yet another reason why I DON'T LIKE "dances".)

[ExLS]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
the key to a successful business is a "business plan." EEOS.

Staff having sex with superviors and clients, no way, really, do tell
You mean it actually happens hee on Long Island. Get out of town. Your kidding right, can't be true

[Danielle]

Originally posted by slinkybender
"Throughout the ages" a fairly high percentage of "club management" have had the policy (mostly unspoken) of not letting any girl do more in the Champagne Room than that girl was doing for them. I'd take an even money bet that there is at least one girl where you work who is blowing both customers and management.

Oh, I know. Those girls also get away with a number of other non-sexual things at my club that the rest of us don't.

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by Danielle
Oh, I know. Those girls also get away with a number of other non-sexual things at my club that the rest of us don't.

If this were an episode of Perry Mason, there would be a certain type of music playing right now.

[ExLS]

Originally posted by slinkybender
If this were an episode of Perry Mason, there would be a certain type of music playing right now.

LOL. Club owner should play perry mason music in the VIP ROOMs

[Danielle]

I'm sure I'm missing out on a really funny joke here because I have no idea what Perry Mason is all about. Anyway, I gotta go to work now and deal with all this shit. Too bad for me you guys aren't around at 5 in the morning.

[Casper]

If there was something in it for me, I'd be around at 5:00 am

[ExLS]

Originally posted by Danielle
I'm sure I'm missing out on a really funny joke here because I have no idea what Perry Mason is all about. Anyway, I gotta go to work now and deal with all this shit. Too bad for me you guys aren't around at 5 in the morning.

Perry Mason is a old TV series and the title character was a lawyer. Tell me when and you supply the coffee

[Danielle]

Originally posted by Casper
If there was something in it for me, I'd be around at 5:00 am

Oh, but there is! There's the unparelled experience of conversing with me over the internet in the wee hours of the morning.

[Casper]

Well since I'm up go to it.

[pswope]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
the key to a successful business is a "business plan." EEOS.
Though I've come to be a total acolyte of your view on young women & older men,the above is wrong. The key is execution. Seen 100's of well thought out bmodels failfor lack of execution.

(now back to our regularly scheduled programming)


btw-the blowing of management works in virtually every milieu (and why shouldn't it) See e.g. Miss Laid Goods,my ex L School colleague and Doris Day. See also, the guy,who Leona Helmsley hired as GM of her hotel, basically to service her.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
3. Has your behaviour progressed from clearly commercial sex (i.e. prostitutes) to quasi-commercial sex (i.e. good girls gone bad)?

Originally posted by h. von bingen
3. How?

Pervert's Progress by justlooking

As late as the early 90s, commercial sex was like a different universe to me. It's not so much that I had nothing to do with it, as that I couldn't even imagine having anything to do with it. It simply wasn't on my radar. It would never occur to me to go to a strip club, much less hire a prostitute. It was just completely alien to anything anyone like me would be interested or involved in.

I got sucked into the commercial sex vortex sort of indirectly, through the Downtown Performance Art scene. A performance art place opened in the early 90s called The Blue Angel. It billed itself as an "erotic cabaret". Most of the women who performed there were legitimate performance artists, dancers, or even visual artists, who found doing sex-themed pieces a lark.

I went there out of curiosity. But my interest was piqued in a non-esthetic way. I remember, the first time I went back in 1994, being extremely stimulated by the fact that I could look around the room, pick out an attractive woman, and chances were that within an hour I'd be able to see her without her clothes on.

The Blue Angel didn't have lap dances at first (it really was a performance art place), but after a while they added them as a way for the performers to make money. It took me at least a year to buy one, though, as that wasn't remotely the kind of thing I did. But I decided to try.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by pswope
btw-the blowing of management works in virtually every milieu (and why shouldn't it) See e.g. Miss Laid Goods,my ex L School colleague and Doris Day. See also, the guy,who Leona Helmsley hired as GM of her hotel, basically to service her.

yes and no. see the lawsuit the guy helmsley hired to service her is slapping on her. i doubt a suit from a stripper against a club owner would win, although in theory there could of course be sexual harassment in a strip club, but those girls' lawyer would have her work cut out for her.

[justlooking]

Originally, The Blue Angel was a cabaret given on Friday and Saturday nights. But eventually, it started opening on weeknights. On weeknights, they didn't have the full-fledged cabaret. Instead of performance pieces, they featured something closer to normal stripping (although of course it tended to be much more imaginative and performance-oriented than the desultory strolling about the stage you see in mainstream clubs -- not that I knew that at the time, never having been to a mainstream club -- and of course with much better music). Between their sets, the performers would sit with customers and chat them up, in hopes of selling them lap dances.

I wandered in one weeknight and I couldn't believe it. It was like that room in Steppenwolf where "All Girls Are Yours". These were exactly the kind of women I'm attracted to, self-selected for physical appearance, and not only would they take off their clothes in front of me and go into a side room and rub up against me, but they'd also talk to me and be nice to me.

It was the one-on-one interaction that did me in. That's what got me addicted to commercial sex.

[h. von bingen]

so it was the blue angel, hmmm, but you know there were plenty of sex workers in the early 80s downtown scene (which you seem familiar with). remember pulsalama?

if i'm reading you correctly you are having a delayed post adolescent reaction. most guys (and me) have our first exposure to commercial sex in late high school/college. i remember my buddies and i used to go to peep shows in times square when we weren't at tr3 or irving plaza. note, these guys were not nearly as intellectual as i, more like normal guys. i think the intellectual/asethetes normally do not go for this type of frat boy behaviour.

no. 2 an a/i never saw a prostitute nor went with me to peep shows and didn't even like porn, however, this produces a much more perverse sex life than having a few beers and going up to the melody ever would.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
It was the one-on-one interaction that did me in. That's what got me addicted to commercial sex.

jl, i hate to break the news to you (but it was true for hombre too), you're LONELY.

[justlooking]

Sometime in 1997 or so, The Blue Angel closed. A lot of the women who performed there had become dependent on the money they made there, so they dispersed among the mainstream and underground clubs in the City and continuted to strip (without the artistic veneer The Blue Angel had).

I followed.

I found, to my happy surprise, that, in addition to any Blue Angel refugees who ended up at them, most strip clubs had a contingent of women who were like the Blue Angel performers: young boho girls supporting their "artistic" projects with sex work. I loved hanging out with these girls and buying mild mainstream strip-club type sexual services from them. And compared to most of the guys who go to strip clubs, I was tolerable company for them (at least if you have to be at work anyway). What was most important to me was "connecting" with these girls -- it was the personal interaction more than anything else that I liked.

Believing what I understood from the media, I never expected, much less sought, any "extras". I thought it was impossible they could be available. It just wasn't anything I understood could be done. But I liked what you got instead. These sort of mock-"relationships" with these girls, with whom you actually got pretty involved. Sort of like a "GFE", except without the sex.

We're now in 1998. The infamous New York adult zoning regs were finally about to become effective, after years of litigation.

There was one stripper I was particularly enamored of, a sort of prototype of the boho renegade I prefer (and also probably the sexiest woman I'd ever met). She had told me (honestly, I believe) that I was the first man she'd ever let touch her breasts for money. But despite my years of patronage, I never got a significant extra from her.

She was working, in mid-1998, at a club that would be hit hard by the adult zoning regs once they kicked in. So she began to make alternative arrangements. She told me that once her club closed down she would see select regulars at her apartment for "bottle-like activities".

While I enjoyed the feeling of additional intimacy I got from seeing her in her apartment, the lack of any significant mileage whatsoever became even more galling. In addition, she didn't have any job that I could see, and I knew she didn't have enough regulars from her club to generate sufficient income to get her rent paid and her food bought. I was afraid to voice my suspicions of how she was supporting herself, but she soon told me herself that she had begun to work as an agency escort.

I asked her if she'd see me on a full service basis. She said she'd thought about it and decided she couldn't, as she couldn't sell sex to anyone she really "knew".

I stopped seeing her. It was just too frustrating to know I was the only person in New York who couldn't buy sex from the woman I most wanted to have sex with.

This led me to begin my first serious round of whoring. I was curious to see what I was missing with that stripper. I was convinced that a session with a prostitute was virtually required, by the circumstances, to be an impersonal physical experience and nothing more. I believed that even if I found some prostitute who was like that stripper, she'd never let me "connect" with her the way I "connected" with strippers at their clubs.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
jl, i hate to break the news to you (but it was true for hombre too), you're LONELY.

i reiterate.

[Wwanderer]

jl's saga sounds like perfect material for the sort of "journal" Slinky proposed in General last week or so.

Btw, the early Blue Angel sounds fascinating. I have never been to a place that much resembled what you describe.

-Ww

[justlooking]

I saw prostitutes on that basis for a while.

Eventually, I had several experiences that led me to understand that you can "connect" with prostitutes, at least sometimes, the way you can "connect" with strippers.

But I was realizing something else at the same time. Which is that everything you hear about limitations on mileage in strip clubs is bullshit. And, more important, many if not most strippers will be happy to "date" you outside their club once they get to "like" you or at least feel comfortable with you.

That, of course, finally gave me what I was looking for. I could find these strippers I liked, get to know them, and have sex with them. Those very ones. So I finally filled the hole left by that first stripper's refusal to sell me full service.

Eventually, the strippers pretty much edged out prostitutes in my commercial sex diet.

I hope this answers hvb's question.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
jl's saga sounds like perfect material for the sort of "journal" Slinky proposed in General last week or so.

Btw, the early Blue Angel sounds fascinating. I have never been to a place that much resembled what you describe.

-Ww

the blue angel was great. it was the natural outgrowth of the facts that lots of downtown girls (artists, writers, musicians) supported themselves through sex work anyway and viewed doing so as a kind of neo feminist statement. also performance artists like karen finley performed nude or topless (but not [that i can recall] in a sexually provocative way). the blue angel was like a deconstruction of the boho stripper lifestyle.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
jl, i hate to break the news to you (but it was true for hombre too), you're LONELY.

DOG BITES MAN

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
the blue angel was great. it was the natural outgrowth of the facts that lots of downtown girls (artists, writers, musician) supported themselves through sex work any and viewed doing so as a kind of neo feminist statement.

But nothing like it now, I guess. And I missed it. I HATE missing things. Damn

-Ww

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
But nothing like it now, I guess. And I missed it. I HATE missing things. Damn

-Ww

jl and i were just discussing me opening a new blue angel-type strip club for the 00s.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
DOG BITES MAN

is this supposed to meant that's obvious? i have so many questions, most of which i can't ask. but, one that i can. you are obviously missing the exuberance of youthful intellectual and social chat. why don't you try getting it elsewhere?

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
So I finally filled the hole left by that first stripper's refusal to sell me full service.

Eventually, the strippers pretty much edged out prostitutes in my commercial sex diet.

I hope this answers hvb's question.

let me first say this to you: a heartfelt THANKS.

you're never going to fill that hole. that's the same hole we all have when we ache for our youth, but jl, this is what you don't dig. it's a GOOD ache.