The more you pay the better it gets

[danger-us]

This and other myths, today on UG Expose.

Some guys need to live out their fantasies with porn stars. My fantasies usually involve minimum wage hotel cleaning women. To each his own.

This section is so empty, you'd think it costs $1000 just to post a thread here. High End indeed.

Under what circumstances would you spend $1000+ for a provider?

[Geezy Muldoon]

I haven't spent quite that much. But came pretty close several times.

For that kind of money, I want a woman who is younger (21-24), better looking (real world 7-8), relatively inexperienced (can count professional lays in the low hundreds or less), lets me put my tongue in her mouth and doesn't require a condom when she blows me - no questions asked.

When it works out as planned, it does get better the more you pay. That is what I now consider a "better" experience.

FWIW, I'd never waste my time seeing a porn star. Such women do absolutely nothing for me and are as unappetizing (to me anyway) as lady winos sleeping under bridges.

[Thorn]

I will keep this brief...

At some point I might consider sex for $1000/hr. I will be an old, boney, man that no woman would come near for less then that amount. But that point is far away, or at least one can hope.

It has to do with the fact that no matter how skilled the courtesan, or beautiful, we are still talking about sex.

Sex, in and of itself, to me is not worth $1000 for a single event with a single woman, as I can get as much of it as I personally need, at the quality I desire it [which is relatively high] for much less. At least, for now I can.

I won't overpay for airfare simply because I can afford to, or over pay for hotels, jewlery, good food, theatre, or any of life's other fineries. I consider sex to be no different then any of these.

Just my opinion.

[justlooking]

DITTO to Judge Crater.

NON-DITTO to Thorn.

[justlooking]

Thorn, just because there's a price point that you won't go above, it doesn't follow that anyone who does is overpaying or just paying that much because they can. Unless and until you can show JC and me the $200 equivalent (among prostitutes) of the agency girls JC is talking about, we won't buy your argument. Because all you're doing is taking a completely arbitrary decision you make for yourself and trying to impose it on everybody else like it's some kind of universal maxim or standard of value, when really it's nothing more than YOUR individual decision about what YOU are willing to spend.

[danger-us]

Originally posted by justlooking
Thorn, just because there's a price point that you won't go above, it doesn't follow that anyone who does is overpaying or just paying that much because they can.

I agree with, what I believe to be, the essence of Thorn's post. I thought he was expressing his ability to meet his own standards at a much lower price point. That's also how I feel, for the most part.

jl, I can understand your issue with his last paragraph. As you put it, he was 'trying to impose it on everybody else like it's some kind of universal maxim or standard of value'. I think it's his general way of speaking/writing, which I myself sometimes take issue with. I'd probably appreciate more of his posts if they were less 'pompous', as he describes himself. I don't think he means harm in the way he writes. I just don't think he realizes how his style can be perceived. (This post in question is such a mild case of this.)

Back to the issue of the thread:

I think it comes down to fulfilling your own fantasy. I have never liked the overly 'perfect' types. What really gets me off, is a beauty and charm that I can relate to. I can't relate to most of the girls priced at $1000+.

[Geezy Muldoon]

Thorn:

jl is probably richer than I am and/or has no children to take care of and/or has a wife who makes gobs of money. He also seems to have recourse to cheaper, acceptable alternatives (e.g., strippers, UTR women, etc.) for those moments when he is feeling especially edgy.

Even though I am not in the same position as jl and now have less frequent commercial encounters as a result, paying more for what I am looking for still makes sense.

I am no longer interested in the compulsive whorehound experience.* It does absolutely nothing for me.

I have a very, very difficult time believing in what is happening these days when I am having a commercial sex encounter.

With an inexperienced, young woman from an agency, it becomes easier to believe for the time it takes to have a session.

That's why I am willing to pay more.


Best, etc.


JC


*With the exception of one 18 year old indie who I may or may not get to boink someday.

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by justlooking
Because all you're doing is taking a completely arbitrary decision you make for yourself and trying to impose it on everybody else like it's some kind of universal maxim or standard of value, when really it's nothing more than YOUR individual decision...

Where have we seen someone around here pushing universal maxims?

[Thorn]

Originally posted by justlooking
Thorn, just because there's a price point that you won't go above, it doesn't follow that anyone who does is overpaying or just paying that much because they can. Unless and until you can show JC and me the $200 equivalent (among prostitutes) of the agency girls JC is talking about, we won't buy your argument. Because all you're doing is taking a completely arbitrary decision you make for yourself and trying to impose it on everybody else like it's some kind of universal maxim or standard of value, when really it's nothing more than YOUR individual decision about what YOU are willing to spend.

Sorry if I came off sounding like that. We've bandied this about often enough that you know that is not the way I feel.

I fully admit that the amount [closer to $300 then to $200] is a totally subjective amount placed on the value of sex of a particular quality that is sufficent to meet my needs, AND fits in with the value of other things in life for which I am willing to part with cash. I just can't remove sex as a seperate issue from other things of value in life. I'm a big picture kinda guy. For instance, I can't see within the value scope in my life, one hours worth of sex being of equivilent value to 1/3 the cost of a week in Europe in a good hotel.

I also wouldn't dream of imposing MY standard as universal. I am just stating that it works for ME.

And you and I both have women that we see that are of very high caliber, and that don't cost us much more then $300. It happens. It just takes a LOT of effort to find them. Time is money, so if you count the investment of time...

Its just that I am willing to invest time rather then other forms of capital.

So, when it comes right down to it, I suppose there isn't a whole lot of difference. A $600 - $1000 girl from a reliable agency or independent of known value, with very little time invested, compared to a semi-pro you've paid $200 - $300 and invested maybe another $100 in the pre-work [I don't spend the way you do on that, but we aren't working in the same venues... you are getting a lot of the white girls in the scores - paradise - type places and I am dealing mostly with hispanic women in Jersey back waters. Our concepts of true beauty are similar, but I am willing to trade down in looks a little for the right attitude and sexual appetite... at $1000 it should be, obviously, the whole package. In other words, we'd probably both give Danielle a 6 but I'd probably rate her higher overal then you due to her attitude and the fact that she sees sex pretty much the same way a guy would see it if they had breasts and female genitalia... ie, if its fun do it.. but if you are going to do it anyway, might as well get paid for it].

Anyway... point is, that we don't disagree that taste and price points are arbitrary things.

Just as you also have agreed that, within this medium [though I admit not in the whoring world as a whole] there are more johns working at my price point then at yours.

[SkellyChamp]

I have paid $1000 and more for an 1 or 1 and a half hour session. We all have our own persepectives. I've never compared or thought about what else I could do with that money. That's just me. If I found a woman who I wanted to see then I would pay her fee whatever it was (for the most part because I wouldn't pay $50,000 a day sought by some ladies). There is no fixed age point. The only requirement I have is BBBJ and that's at any fee. I would not pay even $10 for a CBJ.

I rarely play anymore (having by choice decided to dedicate myself to making my marriage and home life work after 20+ years) but when I do the dollars really don't matter. I suppose in large part it is because I don't worry about it. And that has probably affected my view towards it.

If Marianne Miller had turned out to be real, I definitely would have seen her regardless of whether her fee was out of this world (e.g. $2000) because I just thought she was stunning.

I have seen certain porn stars and paid a large fee but because I wanted to see them I readily paid it . But there are other porn stars who I have no desire to see who even if they were charging $200 to see I wouldn't bother with. It' s never been about comparing one girl with another on any level. Now that Marianne is a no-go (I'm still devastated) there is a woman who I've wanted to see who is going to be around for my birthday who I will probably treat myself to. She is a porn star and will probably cost $1500 - $3000 but I will see her and if it if for 1 or 1 and a half hours and I enjoy it then it is worth it. Memories factor into the price also.

I understand Thorn's and JC/jl's point of view, I just don't feel it applies to me.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by danger-us
Back to the issue of the thread:

I think it comes down to fulfilling your own fantasy. I have never liked the overly 'perfect' types. What really gets me off, is a beauty and charm that I can relate to. I can't relate to most of the girls priced at $1000+.

What's interesting about this is that we're in complete agreement. But in my experience, the higher-priced agency women (and I'm really talking about $600 and up here, although my one foray into $1000+ wasn't much different from the rest of this range) are the type of "beauty and charm that I can relate to." Meaning they're not stunningly perfect women: rather, as JC says, they're "only" 7s or 8s. What they are is extremely goodlooking normal-type women -- more like someone you'd see on the street and want to be with than like someone you'd see on a runway -- who seem to come from some kind of background I can relate to, who are able to hold my interest in a conversation, and who are not so used up and jaded that I feel like I'm being treated like a trick when we have sex. The women that I have trouble relating to are, say, the $200 brothel girls, who seem to be coming from lives I can barely comprehend.

You can get what I'm talking about elsewhere for less money (rhymes with "rippers"; rhymes with "UTR mindies"; rhymes with "demi-does"). But not without a lot more work than it takes to phone an agency.

[pswope]

Though I have blown the equivalent amount ($1000) on past serial whoring binges,there is no way I would spend that amount on a single session. The only exception would be for an absolutely unobtainable woman-Halle Berry.

This has been dissected before and my answer remains the same.
For me, there is no commercial sex session worth that amount.

I have experienced the types of working girls jl adverts to during my 1st tour of duty as a john and while many of those experiences were positive, they provided me with no greater personal enjoyment than I currently derive from the ladies I see.

When I go beyond my d-mark ($300/hr),I suffer a psychological diminished return on satisfaction that makes it not worhtwhile to pursue at these higher price levels.

[justlooking]

Well, yeah, but that "psychological diminution" has to do with you, not the service providers. To trot out the old restaurant analogy, it would be easy to understand someone's saying he couldn't enjoy a meal that cost $150 or $200. But that doesn't mean that people who aren't bothered by that can't and don't enjoy dinner at Bouley or Daniel or wherever. Or, for that matter, that you can easily get what you get at Bouley or Daniel or wherever for much less than you pay at those places.

(And of course, as has been noted lots of times before, you're in the lucky position of having a pronounced preference that's undervalued by the market.)

[Geezy Muldoon]

Ditto to jl's remarks on jaded. I can always sense the Potemkin village being built before my eyes and can immediately apprehend each and every lie told to me when I'm with a prostitute.

With young, inexperienced agency girls who have not long grown accustomed to playing all the different roles that prostitutes play with different men, all that is still likely to happen.

I am still a john. That never changes.

There is, however, a slightly better chance that something "real" might transpire; a display of "self" that was not planned out in advance as part of the role she is playing. It's those moments of "reality" that I am willing to pay for.

Why? Those moments of "reality" force me to confront myself and educate me about who I am.

[justme]

I'd probably pay $1000 for a prostitute at around the same time that $1000 became the same percentage of my discretionary income that $150 is now.

Heh, but since looks aren't as important to me as believable sex, I'd have to be that much more convinced that there was something real about the experience.

(While in session only, of course)

(Given what I've seen at $600-$800, I'd have to assume looks would be more than sufficiently met at $1000)

[Thorn]

Originally posted by pswope
I have experienced the types of working girls jl adverts to during my 1st tour of duty as a john and while many of those experiences were positive, they provided me with no greater personal enjoyment than I currently derive from the ladies I see.

When I go beyond my d-mark ($300/hr),I suffer a psychological diminished return on satisfaction that makes it not worhtwhile to pursue at these higher price levels.

Ditto. Ditto. And ditto again.

[Thorn]

Originally posted by justlooking
Well, yeah, but that "psychological diminution" has to do with you, not the service providers.

Ditto again.

[Thorn]

Originally posted by Judge Crater
Why? Those moments of "reality" force me to confront myself and educate me about who I am.

It is clear that you have not, for lack of a better term, "sex dated" young dancers who have decided to make an "acception" [in quotes because, if you do it often enough is it still an acception? And how do you know how often she is doing it, other then guessing by her seeming lack of 'provider' experience] in your case and have sex with you for money.

You'll frequently get all the "reality" you crave and then some.

[Which, in fact, becomes the issue with "dating" such women over seeing professional providers.]

[Geezy Muldoon]

Thorn:

That sort of craziness wouldn't be enjoyable to me at all. An old girlfriend's ex-sister-in-law was a stripper and she was a friggin piece of work.

She talked to me quite often (usually when drunk while wearing her bathrobe at her dining room table without makeup and her wet hair up in a terry cloth turban) about being a stripper, the bullshit she spewed, the lies she told, and the stuff she did with men. I heard it all.

She finally found an old geezer of a lawyer who sent her to Katherine Gibbs and made her his secretary.

She does quite nicely now and lives a semi-normal middle class life. Her daughter is all grown up wearing black lipstick and living as a bohemian in the Village.



JC

[letsgetstarted]

Originally posted by justlooking
Thorn, just because there's a price point that you won't go above, it doesn't follow that anyone who does is overpaying or just paying that much because they can. Unless and until you can show JC and me the $200 equivalent (among prostitutes) of the agency girls JC is talking about, we won't buy your argument. Because all you're doing is taking a completely arbitrary decision you make for yourself and trying to impose it on everybody else like it's some kind of universal maxim or standard of value, when really it's nothing more than YOUR individual decision about what YOU are willing to spend.


I think for most of us, $1000 for a session is not an arbitrary amount, it's a large amount.

So, does somebody have a recommendation in that price category?

[Geezy Muldoon]

Look through the other threads in this section for mention of agencies. Then call a few up until you feel comfortable. Tell them what you are looking for.

It's not like, "Oh, you gotta go do Inna over at Julies. She's really hot. She's there every day but Thursday and gives out with the BBBJ."

These women don't get reviewed. They're not as invested in being prostitutes as the women who get reviewed and have an internet prescence.

Oh, and be prepared to say to yourself sometimes: "Shit, I've had more enjoyable sessions for far less. What a stupid asshole I am for paying so much money. I could have had three sessions elsewhere for that money."

I've gone this route six times in the past year.
Four of the sessions were very good. Two were not enjoyable at all because of a complete lack of chemistry between me and the women. They weren't professional enough to make me think they liked me even though they really wanted to vomit.

They still looked pretty good, though.

(That was a pretty fun way to confront myself.)

(Did wonders for my self-image.)

[justlooking]

DITTO.

(To the revision, too.)

[danger-us]

Originally posted by justlooking
What's interesting about this is that we're in complete agreement. But in my experience, the higher-priced agency women (and I'm really talking about $600 and up here, although my one foray into $1000+ wasn't much different from the rest of this range) are the type of "beauty and charm that I can relate to." Meaning they're not stunningly perfect women: rather, as JC says, they're "only" 7s or 8s. ... The women that I have trouble relating to are, say, the $200 brothel girls, who seem to be coming from lives I can barely comprehend.

I guess I'm torn on this issue. I won't be able to express all of how I feel in this post due to lack of time, but for starters...

Most $200-$300 brothel girls, I just wouldn't want to live those lives, although, to me it's kinda interesting to experience these other worlds. I can relate to them on a very basic human level.

Growing up in an upper middle class environment, I certainly have more background in common with any well educated, white individual, also from an upper middle class environment. Doesn't mean I'm looking for that in a woman.

The most important elements in a woman for me are
1) an unassuming sense of beauty and grace
2) a great sense of humor and sense of fun
3) generally easy going (in other words, not a bitch).

Will I find all those qualities in a provider? In a $1000 provider? I almost hope not because I'd probably fall for her and be in far too deep.

[justlooking]

You can't guaranty you'll find all that at any price (or no price).

[*********]

Maybe if you guys weren't so caught up with the $ amount of the session you would have a more enjoyable time. It's like this, if you can't afford to go $300 and up, don't bother seeing whores whose rate falls in that bracket, only to have regrets and nag yourself about it later.

There comes a certain point in time that we don't want to be bothered polluting ourselves for under a certain amount so it goes both way gents, we're not looking forward to seeing tightwads so maybe that's why we have our rates at a certain level as to not deal with stingy johns (I mean emotionally as well as financially) and I would hate to be the cause of financial hardship to another human being but know this, a person who is tight with his wallet will be as held back with his emotions and in order to have a good time you have to be flexible and open to the experience at the given time.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Thorn
we'd probably both give Danielle a 6

Since there's been some confusion about this before, it should be pointed out that Thorn is talking about Danielle at F/Stop, not Danielle the pseudonymous UG poster.

[Thorn]

Originally posted by Sexywhore
...don't want to be bothered polluting ourselves...

SW, while I wouldn't give you $1000 of my own money, I certainly would take up a collection of OPM to give you at least $1000 [hell, I'd even throw a $10 spot into the hat myself to start it off] for finally admitting that which has been obvious to most of us reading your posts for some time now.

Seriously, sincerely, politely and specifically, you don't like doing this as a trade and sometimes it shows though very readily.

Now, I truly can understand why you wouldn't. I don't think its a profession that should carry the stigma it does, but I know that the fact that I think its an honorable profession [if done honorably] doesn't change anything.

IF you find it so distasteful, why do you do it? Again, sincerely. You owe yourself better then that.

I wish you well.

[*********]

Sorry to burst your bubble Thorn but your wrong about your assessment concerning my regard for my work. If I wasn't happy being a whore I wouldn't be bothered doing it, this is not my only means of finance.

I'm very happy doing this just sometimes when I read the shit you guys post on this board it makes me queasy which is one of my reasons for having such a tight screening process for new johns so in turn I choose to weed out the johns who will not treat me with respect and class.

Most of my clients (95%) do not come from UG nor do I do one hour calls any more so that I can avoid guys like you all that post here with this misogynistic double standard so instead of trying to analyze what drives me to be a whore maybe you should look at the mote in your own eye first. I'm fully aware of what drives me to doing this and don't need to make every other post about how much I love to suck and fuck strange men nor how much of a nypho I am, so thank you for your time.

[Geezy Muldoon]

SW:

FWIW, I spend most of my time looking at those motes in my own eye. Gotta small forest growing.
Could require surgery.

All that being the case, it is equally illuminating to contemplate the motes growing in the eyes of women.


Best, etc.


JC

[justlooking]

If the only prostitutes in the world are gonna be women who actively enjoy getting fucked by repulsive strangers, there aren't gonna be that many prostitutes in the world.

[Houston]

Well in my experience as a paying client who is also a provider I paid 1200 for Nina Hartley and it was worth every damn penny...she did things to me that I have craved for men to do and she taught me a new trick or two so I call it a siminar by a famous porn star...maybe every working girl should try it. It educated me. I only wish to have the chance to share and express what I learned from the experience with others who are longing.......

[ogami]

Originally posted by letsgetstarted
I think for most of us, $1000 for a session is not an arbitrary amount, it's a large amount.

So, does somebody have a recommendation in that price category?

I'll limit my comments regarding the merits of spending this much on a session with an escort to this: I generally look for the type of experience with an escort that jl and JC seem also to be looking for, and given my background and tastes, I generally can't seem to find that in escorts who are working at lower price points -- though there have been a few exceptions.

As for specific recommendations, these fall more in the $600 - $800 range, but the few times I payed $1000 plus for a session, it wasn't any better than the better ones I've had in the $600 - $800 range. In fact, some of the $1k+ sessions were markedly worse, both in terms of the appearance of the escort, her demeanour, and how well she and I were able to get along.

The recommendations:

http://www.monalisa-models.com/stephanie.html
http://www.monalisa-models.com/vivian.html
http://www.monalisa-models.com/carla.html

The pics of stephanie and vivian are of the actual escort who will show up. The one of carla, I'm not sure, but given that I found her to be undoubtedly the most beautiful escort I have ever seen, and perhaps the most physically attractive woman I've ever been with, period, I don't think the possibility that her picture is fake matters much.

I found dfk, bbbj, and daty to be available with all three. I did not try for greek, russian, bbbjtc or asian, and wasn't interested in asking. Just as important, I found all three to be witty, charming, and to immediately put me at ease with their warmth and humor. During my sessions with each of them, I felt like I was making a genuine connection with another human being.

[justlooking]

One thing I want to be clear about:

You can have this kind of experience (or better, because more personal) for less than this price point with low-volume independents (and other similar types). It's just more work to find them and harder to schedule with them.

[letsgetstarted]

Thank You, Ogami, for giving me specific information that I can use.

[danger-us]

I didn't even spend $1000 on my wife for Valentine's Day. If I spent that much on a provider for one hour, I feel my priorities would be more screwed up than the screwed up mess they already are.

[justlooking]

How much did you spend on your wife this Valentine's Day?

[danger-us]

wait... <adding up receipts>


this could take some time...


$427.....


make that $427.38

[justlooking]

Once again, I'm glad my wife doesn't read this board.

[justlooking]

(Actually, so no one else throws this back at me, I'd have to say my wife and I hew to the "Valentine's Day is for amateurs" line.)

[danger-us]

I have married friends who hardly even celebrate Valentine's Day.

There should be a rule (kinda like the engagement ring rule) where, for your wife on Valentine's Day, you have to spend 3X what you normaly spend for a date with a hooker.

I'll start next year.

[Geezy Muldoon]

I usually think Valentine's Day is lame. Had a great time this year though. Got cards and choclate for the kids and took the family to a resort. Even went swimming last night.

Big brunch and a surprise party for me.

Whole deal set me back about $600.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Judge Crater
There is, however, a slightly better chance that something "real" might transpire; a display of "self" that was not planned out in advance as part of the role she is playing. It's those moments of "reality" that I am willing to pay for.
Why? Those moments of "reality" force me to confront myself and educate me about who I am.

JC, you astonish me; you are a dreamboy afterall!

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Thorn
Sex, in and of itself, to me is not worth $1000 for a single event with a single woman, as I can get as much of it as I personally need, at the quality I desire it [which is relatively high] for much less. At least, for now I can. I won't overpay for airfare simply because I can afford to, or over pay for hotels, jewlery, good food, theatre, or any of life's other fineries. I consider sex to be no different then any of these.

Sentiments like this are common, the idea basically that a given thng has some maximum value (either absolutely or for a particular person), and that it therefore makes no sense to pay more than that maximum. The problem I see with this view is simple. If you suddenly had much much more money, what would you spend it on? For almost any good or service you can name, after a certain point in the market it becomes a matter of diminishing returns. In other words, you have to increase what you pay by larger and larger amounts to get smaller and smaller increases in quality, utility etc. Very few things, hard to think of any, continue to get proportionately better as you pay more and more for them. So, if you are rich enough and are going to spend your money on yourself and/or those you support at all (as opposed to saving/investing it or giving it away), you are sort of stuck with paying more than you really need to spend to satisfy yourself or your dependents. You end up spending a lot to get something that is just a little better. This is particularly true of luxury markets, such as very upscale providers.

-Ww

[justlooking]

Thorn has been refusing to acknowledge that point for years.

[Geezy Muldoon]

Wwanderer:

Nope. Not a dreamboy. The moments of "reality" to which I refer are moments in which a prostitute reveals herself, her true nature, inadvertently.
It's always a little disgusting to see*, but I find it charming to behold. The study of other people's characters (what makes them tick, etc.) has been a lifelong hobby of mine. I'm a candid camera kind of guy.

With more experienced women that are life-long prostitutes, you very rarely get to see them as they really are. They are past masters at protecting themselves. Depending on the character you play and their own talents, they trot out their version of servant girl, admirer, meat puppet, domininatrix, beloved, nurse, etc.

Session faces and dumb show for the rubes.


Best, etc.


JC





*It is always a little disgusting to behold another human being's real nature, especially when they are johns or prostitutes.

[danger-us]

If I were rich, yes, I would spend $1000 on a provider. I'd be a regular Charlie Sheen.

Wwanders point on diminishing returns is right on. If you can afford it great, Otherwise you might be under the assumption that you are getting your moneys worth, dollar for dollar.

Fine wine. Spend $200 and you can get an amazing bottle that no $20 bottle can compare with. For the less than affluent, it might be wiser to find a very good $20 bottle and buy 10 bottles.

You have to say to your self, can I afford to spend x amount of dollars per meal just on beverage?

Can I afford to spend x amount of dollars per week/month just on sex?

[RoosterC74]

Possibly I am just a tight-wad, however, the thought of spending $1,000 on one get-together is just beyond me. The looks, performance, etc. would have to be just unreal. I believe if I were dropping the $1,000 I would be thinking about the possibility of having 3 or 4 sessions with a $250 to $350 provider for the same amount.

[Geezy Muldoon]

Danger-us:

Think on this:

Commercial sex is completely un-necessary.

Once you accept that and look at commercial sex as an experience from which you can learn about yourself and other people and sharpen your perceptions, having less frequent sessions with better looking, younger and less jaded women becomes affordable.

You don't have to be rich. Just picky.


Best, etc.


JC

[Wwanderer]

Part of the differences of opinion on this topic among different hobbyists of similar financial means arises from whether they rely on providers for their primary regular source of sexual satisfaction or they see commercial sex as an occasional splurge or luxury treat for themselves. JC is sort of pointing at the same issue in a slightly different way I think. Personally I still have a reasonably satisfying sex life with my wife, so if I decide to splurge with an upscale provider and spend far more than my norm, it does not mean that I am completely sexually deprived during the period I have to wait for my hobby finances to recover. But a guy whose main source of sex comes from regular dates with $250 ladies has to pay a pretty severe price to try out a porn star who wants $1500 or whatever; it can mean weeks or more of abstinence.

-Ww

[justlooking]

GREAT point.

[Geezy Muldoon]

Guys who need commercial sex for a regular source of sexual satisfaction should stop patronizing prositutes and get a regular source of sexual satisfaction.

Such regular sources of sexual satisfaction also typically (if you play your cards right) provide emotional satisfaction - the pleasures and stability of consistent and dependable intimacy with another human being.

[danger-us]

Originally posted by Judge Crater
Danger-us:

Think on this:

Commercial sex is completely un-necessary.



JC, I'm sorry to correct you, but I have a medical condition that makes commercial sex necessary. Similar to Kidney patient who need dialysis, I have a condition that medically require regular trips to a sex provider.

The wife can't help out because there is something about the empty, shallow nature of commercial sex that is medically therapeutic. At least that's what my doctor says.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Judge Crater
Guys who need commercial sex for a regular source of sexual satisfaction should stop patronizing prositutes and get a regular source of sexual satisfaction.

I guess you mean that they should stop seeing prostitutes and get a different regular source of sexual satisfaction. As usual, it is not a one size fits all sort of world. Many guys would prefer to find a different source but are unable to do so for one reason or the other. Some guys prefer commercial sex to relationship sex for a variety of reasons, some of them perfectly valid/rational/healthy imo. I can list some if you can't imagine them.

-Ww

[littleguy]

Originally posted by justlooking
Once again, I'm glad my wife doesn't read this board.

And how do you know I don't........ errr, I mean she doesn't ? (grin)

[greyfox]

Originally posted by Judge Crater
Guys who need commercial sex for a regular source of sexual satisfaction should stop patronizing prositutes and get a regular source of sexual satisfaction.


Some of us have disabilities and/or physical deformities which make make it extremely difficult,if not impossible,for us to have an intimate,emotionally satisfying,sexual relationship.Fantasy and the pleasure of physical contact,not "insight" and "reality", are all I expect from commercial sex.Prostitution serves many different needs. I think caution should be exercised when making broad dogmatic pronouncements based on one's own needs,experiences,or rationalizations.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by greyfox
I think caution should be exercised when making broad dogmatic pronouncements based on one's own needs,experiences,or rationalizations.

Yes, but you have to give JC credit for consistent lack of caution in this regard.

-Ww

[danger-us]

Originally posted by greyfox
[BI think caution should be exercised when making broad dogmatic pronouncements based on one's own needs,experiences,or rationalizations. [/B]

It was just revealed on FOX that Judge Crater is actually Joe Millionaire.

[Geezy Muldoon]

I am not Joe Millionaire. Actually, I'm Mr. Ed.

As far as the rest of the above posts go, a man only needs food, clothing and shelter to live. Everything above that is gravy.

I've been cold, and hungry and homeless. I know this is true.

[danger-us]

Originally posted by Judge Crater
a man only needs food, clothing and shelter to live. Everything above that is gravy.

Couldn't agree with you more.

We probably don't spend enough time appreciating that fact.

[danger-us]

And on that note...does anybody have the name of a good $1000 pro?
cause my life be feelin' empty!

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Some guys prefer commercial sex to relationship sex for a variety of reasons, some of them perfectly valid/rational/healthy imo.

I have known guys, once in real life and more than once online, who consciously decide to forego any sort of serious (non-commercial) relationships with women for a period of up to several years because they want to devote the maximum possible amount of their time and energy to some other pursuit, i.e., their career, in order to be really successful and "make it big". This is almost necessary in some extremely competitive professions. They figure that they will have time later to have a "real" relationship, but in the meantime they rely on commercial sex to satisfy their physical needs with minimal time and attention on their part.

I cannot imagine conducting my own life that way, but I can imagine that it works for some guys.

-Ww

[justme]

Originally posted by Judge Crater
Guys who need commercial sex for a regular source of sexual satisfaction should stop patronizing prositutes and get a regular source of sexual satisfaction.



Why would you stop seeing prostitutes while attempting to find a source of regular sexual (and hopefully emotional) satisfaction?

(I personally think that you should stop seeing prostitutes after you find a source of regular sexual (and hopefully emotional) satisfaction)

[Wwanderer]

Why stop at all?

-Ww

[Geezy Muldoon]

JM/Wwanderer:

I kind of stumbled into my relationship with my wife. Prior to that, I was content to pick women up and go to prostitutes.

I can see that some men at times believe it better to forego a real relationship for work, education. That's essentially what I was doing when I met my wife. It's kind of a South African miner existence.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that men who confine themselves to prostitutes for long periods of time and feel that commercial sex is a need as opposed to a want are doing themselves a disservice and are at a dangerously high risk of losing perspective.

IMHO, there is nothing more pathetic than a john whose emotional life is tied up in commercial sex.
They get programmed to think that it's that easy outside of commercial sex when it's not, and lose the ability to relate to women who aren't prostitutes.

It may be, in fact, that commercial sex is best left to more or less happily married men.


Hypocritically,


JC

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Judge Crater
They get programmed to think that it's that easy outside of commercial sex when it's not, and lose the ability to relate to women who aren't prostitutes. It may be, in fact, that commercial sex is best left to more or less happily married men.

I agree that a guy whose physical intimacy with women is restricted to sessions with prostitutes for many years, especially if it is early in his life before he has much or any experience with "real" relationships, runs a serious risk of developing expectations and behaviors that will be a serious obstacle to later having successful SO type arrangements. Quite a dangerous game to play.

-Ww

[danger-us]

Recreational drinking and even some drugs are OK in moderation. When your life is dependant on them, you are in trouble.

Same as commercail sex.

[justme]

JC - I can't think of any reason to disagree with your posts. And in fact, I've often made posts claiming that commercial sex should only make up a part of your sexual portfolio. I've even gone so far as to stop seeing prostitutes for a short time when my ratios were getting too skewed.

[justme]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Why stop at all?

-Ww

I can not reconcile my seeing prostitutes to my being a good person if I am involved in a loving relationship with someone that is assuming sexual fidelity.

More selfishly, I don't think I could take being the cause of that kind of pain and anger (again).

I suppose if my source of sexual (and emotional) satisfaction were OK with my seeing prostitutes, then I'd have no problem with it. I just can't imagine such a woman being someone that I'd want to be significantly othered to.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme
I can not reconcile my seeing prostitutes to my being a good person if ...

Then you should definintely stop; seeing yourself as a good person is way more important than sex.

-Ww

[justme]

Well, yeah.

And I don't see prostitutes when I'm involved in a relationship.

[*********]

Originally posted by justme
Well, yeah.

And I don't see prostitutes when I'm involved in a relationship.

Now that's one funny post. Ahhhh if I had a dollar for every john that says that during a session.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Sexywhore
Ahhhh if I had a dollar for every john that says that during a session.

Don't you collect much more than a dollar for every session, whether or not the john says that?

-Ww

[howardnotstern]

Originally posted by justme
Why would you stop seeing prostitutes while attempting to find a source of regular sexual (and hopefully emotional) satisfaction?
this is the question of the moment for me. and the main current topic of discussion between me and my shrink.

i have come up with two reasons: 1) the energy spent seeing prostitutes detracts from the efforts to secure regular sexual and emotional satisfaction; 2) the sexual satisfaction provided by commercial sex (or whatever else is satisfied) diminishes the drive to make the efforts toward regular relationships, the 'a hungry dog hunts better' argument.

while considering these issues, i am pulling back from commercial sex (this month at least) but i haven't quit yet.

[*********]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Don't you collect much more than a dollar for every session, whether or not the john says that?

-Ww

I know you want me so bad but guess what I want you too and syrup ******s such as this one as not necessary.

"i want our relationship to be more than just business. i want to take care of all your financial needs. "

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Sexywhore
I know you want me so bad but guess what I want you too and syrup

You lost me there, Sw, but anyway as far as I can recall, you are the first person I have ever heard say "if only I had a dollar for every time X happened" who actually did receive a dollar (many dollars actually) every time X happened!

-Ww

[Caitlin of New York]

Originally posted by Judge Crater
I guess what I'm trying to say is that men who confine themselves to prostitutes for long periods of time and feel that commercial sex is a need as opposed to a want are doing themselves a disservice and are at a dangerously high risk of losing perspective.

IMHO, there is nothing more pathetic than a john whose emotional life is tied up in commercial sex.
They get programmed to think that it's that easy outside of commercial sex when it's not, and lose the ability to relate to women who aren't prostitutes.


Another very good reason (one of mine) to not see young clients. I don't want to program an inexperienced man in the way you describe.

[Casper]

Originally posted by justme
Well, yeah.

And I don't see prostitutes when I'm involved in a relationship.

And I don't get involved in a relationship when I see prostitutes.
But a h/j or b/j in never out of the question.

[justme]

Originally posted by Sexywhore
Now that's one funny post. Ahhhh if I had a dollar for every john that says that during a session.

Well, I also vote in every state wide election. (even primaries). ((even runoffs)).

[justme]

HNS - I think those are both good reasons, and I've certainly considered them myself but I concluded:

A) What effort? Driving over to an AMP and plunking down a buck fifty? This is not what's eating up my 'social time'.

B) While the motivation may be somewhat diminished due to a lack of physical 'necessity', I think there is a clarity gained as well. That is, I'm less likely to compromise on who I date simply because I'm not nearly as horny.

But the main reason I think it's OK to see prostitutes is that they fail to provide you with the emotional support and balance of a real girlfriend. They fuck you, and they may give you some faux intimacy, but they really don't care one way another about you beyond your relationship as a customer.

Having been in a real relationship where emotional support (and a host of other things) was provided, I can definitely feel where this is missing when I'm not in a real relationship.

Actually, this is a big part of the reason that I think that people should not lose their virginity / have most of their early sexual experiences with prostitutes (I agree with Caitlin).

This is also why I get so irritated every time I see that whoreboard cliche post comparing the cost of fucking a prostitute with the cost of fucking a girlfriend / wife - reducing a significant other to simply a providor of sex strikes me as too disgusting for words.

But I'm a wimp.

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by justme
This is also why I get so irritated every time I see that whoreboard cliche post comparing the cost of fucking a prostitute with the cost of fucking a girlfriend / wife - reducing a significant other to simply a providor of sex strikes me as too disgusting for words.
Ditto!

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justme
This is also why I get so irritated every time I see that whoreboard cliche post comparing the cost of fucking a prostitute with the cost of fucking a girlfriend / wife - reducing a significant other to simply a providor of sex strikes me as too disgusting for words.

Ditto for me as well if it is meant seriously, but I usually read such posts (and have made a few myself) as tongue-in-cheek humor, sort of like those lists of 10 ways a six-pack of beer (or whatever) is better than a woman (or man).

-Ww

[justme]

I think joking about 'abstract women' isn't nearly as bad as joking about the person you spend your life with. And there's a reason that all of those jokes are referred to as tasteless.

But I already said that I'm a wimp.

(When I was in New York, someone asked me if my hotel was comfortable. I said, "yes." They then asked if my girfriend liked it. I joked, "Who cares?" I'm certain that she would have seen the humor in that. However I'm also fairly certain that she would not find it amusing if I were to tally up how much I 'paid her' per fuck, and then negatively compared my relationship with her to my seeing prostitutes. And that's really the difference in my mind. But I'm, like, the biggest wimp in the world.)

[justlooking]

Maybe not the biggest.

[howardnotstern]

jm, allow me to continue this back and forth.

a) for me, there is considerable effort beyond picking up the phone, dialing 1-800-callgirl and waiting for her to come over and service me. mostly emotional energy. mostly due to my conflicted nature. if i were a healthier, better adjusted person, perhaps my costs would be limited to time and cash.

my shrink used an interesting phrase to describe this, "(my) 'vector of energy'" which may be better directed toward acheiving what i want (presumably an emotionally fulfilling normal relationship). for some reason this turn of phrase struck me (and i am not even a math dude)

b) i agree about the physical release providing clarity. but because i am the biggest mental case in the world, commercial sex is about more than physical release (otherwise i would just jerk off). the exact nature of those secondary gains i am unclear [but these pmb conversations with other johns have sure helped me begin to figure out why i do this].

while not providing the emotional support and balance of a real girlfriend, whatever it is commercial sex does provide me (beyond the physical) may make me 'less hungry' for the real thing.

[pjorourke]

Are justme and justlooking having a wimp contest?

[justlooking]

And if that whippersnapper thinks he has a chance . . . .

[howardnotstern]

(i am just hoping to finish third)

(maybe that is a good handle: justhoping)

[justme]

Hey, JL's the one constantly threatening to take people outside whenever they don't like this or that artist.

I find that sort of behavior very intimidating.

[justme]

HNS -

A) What kind of emotional energy do you think that you are expending?

B) commercial sex is about more than physical release

OK, so there's this super fine line here. Because I'm all fucked up, I need some sort of semblance of genuine emotion before I can enjoy paying someone to fuck me. By genuine emotion, I'm not referring to any kind of 'falling for' sentiment, simply a knowledge that the particular prostitute finds me not totally repulsive, maybe even that she prefers me to other clients (typing that, I feel lame beyond all fucking belief).

If all commercial sex provided me was physical release, I'd stay home and masterbate. Because in the end, no matter who you're with, what you've paid, or what you've done, it always ends exactly the same. So it's gotta be about how you get there, not the actual release.

But even when I build a great rapport with a prostitute, that relationship does not extend into my real life. It's strictly limited to sessions. It certainly does not extend to my apartment at 7:00 pm after a really crappy day of work. It certainly doesn't extend to after a particularly disasterous conversation with my parents. And even if I were to go run out and pay a prostitute to fuck me whenever I had a bad day, it still wouldn't really be close to the same thing.

So while commercial sex provides me with more than a release, it is disasterously bad at providing me with the things that I really want out of a relationship.


(Arghh... the duality to this is my fucked up libido that means that when I find some great woman that can provide me with all those fantastic warm things, generally (with only one exception) she does not want to have sex with nearly the unreasonable frequency that I do.)


C) The real danger, I think, with prostitution (for the single guy) is that I think extreme proficiency at forming faux emotional contacts within the context of a sexual situation will really screw with your forming genuine emotional contacts within the context of a broader romantic relationship. A have yet to rationalize C) away.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by justme
(typing that, I feel lame beyond all fucking belief).

But not the lamest.

[howardnotstern]

Originally posted by justme
A) What kind of emotional energy do you think that you are expending?

see your B) and C). i perform (or at least attempt) similar emotional acrobatics you describe here. by definition, they consume emotional energy. particularly the separation from real life maneuver, which for me apparently has a high degree of difficulty.


nb, i do not disagree with anything you have said here, and the few attitudes you hold that i do not already share, i aspire to share (if i ever grow up)

[justme]

I've never thought of what goes on in a session as being anything as difficult (for me) as emotional acrobatics.

But maybe that's just proof that I need the shrink more than you do.

[justme]

Heh, I think we can discuss wimpiness in polite tones, but I'd hate to see the drag down if we ever get around to pulling out the ruler on our fucked-upedness.

[howardnotstern]

naw, the opposite.

and for me it is not the 60 minutes during the session. it is the time spent before in anticipation, and going back and forth should i or shouldn't i, and the time spent afterwards replaying, analyzing, considering the next session.

[howardnotstern]

dude, i fell in love with a hooker. i am pretty confident i could finish in the money.

[justme]

Originally posted by howardnotstern
naw, the opposite.

and for me it is not the 60 minutes during the session. it is the time spent before in anticipation, and going back and forth should i or shouldn't i, and the time spent afterwards replaying, analyzing, considering the next session.

Oh that part.

Hmm, I suppose I do spend effort deliberating over whether I should go. Actually, I think it's more along the lines of pretending to deliberate (I can't think of a time when I've decided, nah).

And I suppose I do spend tremendous hours here...

But I spend time replaying, analyzing, and considering just about everything I do.

I'm self involved.

[justme]

Originally posted by howardnotstern
dude, i fell in love with a hooker. i am pretty confident i could finish in the money.

Is that all you got?

[howardnotstern]

as an answer to both of your posts immediately above:

lets not forget the single commercial session i had during the year following sept. 11th. i continued the should i/shouldn't i internal debate DURING the three hour session, ultimately giving up $$$$$, for ten minutes of heavy petting and no finish (she had to leave but promised to come back later)(she should be here any minute).

i also spend too much time "replaying, analyzing, and considering just about everything I do," but presumably most of those things are not likely impediments to seeking and forming a 'real' relationship. but then again, maybe they are.

[*********]

mmmmmmm yes big daddy the more you pay the better it gets for me.

next

[justme]

SW - Hillarious

HNS - I'm curious as to what the issues are that you spend so much time delliberating. For me, it's generally a financial deliberation. Is it some kind of guilt issue?

I had forgotten about your megabuck heavy petting session. But if that implies a discomfort with paying someone to have sex with you, then I'd say you're effectively arguing against your fucked-upedness.

[hot4chicks]

Personally, I find the 'chase' as much fun as the boinking. During the chase you never know what you'll find. After the boinking, theres only memories.

Thats why I prefer the hotel bar scene and indy route, as opposed to the incall/brothel scene, which remind me more and more of a car wash.

[howardnotstern]

you want issues, i got issues.

i used to deliberate on the financial aspect. as my income increased, i thought about the dollar cost less. a typical session nowdays is well within my budget for recreation. mostly it is guilt.

i feel guilty that i engage in behavior that is inherently damaging to another human being.

much less so, but more recently increasingly, i feel guilt that my whoring is inherently self destructive. i don't buy it yet but my shrink is working on me. the argument that whoring distracts me from other activity that will lead me to happiness and self fulfillment makes sense.

[ladiesbikeseat]

OK I have a different angle. Is it safe to assume that the higher priced girls are at less risk of disease? I mean why exactly are they a higher price? Do they go to extremes to remain clean? I'm asking this because lately thtere seems to be more than the usual posts about HIV and STD's and I got to thinking.

Also, can you assume that an independent charging $$$ is "safer than an agency girl charging $$ than a SW chargin $? Or is it more of a feeling or comfort level with a provider?

Can any correlation be made?

[justlooking]

I think you can make that correlation if you want to be an idiot.

[justme]

HNS - Every time you come with some piece of evidence that you're fucked up, I think it just establishes you as being not fucked up.

I think that feelings of guilt for contributing to another persons self destructive behavior is really fucking humane. I get those same feelings of guilt, but they are more than overcome by my narcistic need to have sex.

If those are what are keeping you from whoring, I'd say it's probably a good idea for you not to do it.

(I have all these rationalizations handy to beat down this guilt, but I'll keep them to myself for now)

As far as feeling guilty about it being somewhat self destructive to your efforts to find a real S/O, I think you've got a bit of a tautology:

1. Whoring impedes my ability to get an S/O.
2. It does so because I expend scarce emotional energy that would be better spent looking for Mr.s HNS
3. That emotional energy stems from my guilt about whoring.
4. That gult is caused by the fact that whoring impedes my ability to get an S/O

so 1 --> 1

[justme]

Originally posted by justlooking
I think you can make that correlation if you want to be an idiot.

How about the correlation between costs and a providors ability to hide their drug use?

[justlooking]

That might be a better one.

[Wwanderer]

Can we name any specific cases of well known (in the net hobby community) upscale indies who have died of AIDS, or even who are known/suspected to be ill with it? I can't, at least not after only a few moments thought.

-Ww

[justlooking]

We're talking about "upscale" agency girls (I thought). Whole 'nother story.

[justlooking]

Anyway, I've never heard of any "prominent" internet john dying of AIDS either. Doesn't change my risk calculations much.

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by justlooking
I've never heard of any "prominent" internet john dying of AIDS either

But there's always hope.... :p :rolleyes: :eek:

[Casper]

Well we never heard back from our pal maleasian.

[galahad]

I have come to the conclusion I am either blind, naive, or in denial-(which is what I normally accuse other people of being) every time I compare experiences.

I would think the chances of catching any type of STD would be less with either a high end Indy or agency girl simply because not only do they probably see less people, take better care of themselves because they have either the means to do so or are more into the mainstream society outside of their night career, and because to some degree the guys that can afford to see them probably see less women as well. -- And no, I still do not believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

STD is not a class disease but it is health awareness one and in my own experiences the level of health awareness is much higher in either independents or girls that work for agencies in the 500 and up range.

As far as what high end, and I think it was established that 400 is the bottom of high end sometime ago, buys it is appearance, and the ability to blend in mainstream. It tends also to be a less rushed experience.

Another conclusion I came to a long time ago and I think in large part it has to do with the variance in experiences is that there is a large difference in the cost to hobby and what I would term the outer shell being portrayed by women in NYC and La as opposed to other parts of the United States who choose to escort.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by galahad
I would think the chances of catching any type of STD would be less with either a high end Indy or agency girl simply because not only do they probably see less people, take better care of themselves because they have either the means to do so or are more into the mainstream society outside of their night career, and because to some degree the guys that can afford to see them probably see less women as well.

I'll bet that you are correct, though I could not point to any data or studies to support the claim. However, it is well establish that good health, attention to health care and good health practices and so forth are all correlated (and rather strongly) with income, social class, education etc. White collar workers are healthier than blue collar in almost every way. Smoking, for example, is far more common among lower income groups than higher, and it is my impression that it is also more common among downscale providers than upscale ones. It is hard to see why these general trends would not include STDs as well.

-Ww

[justlooking]

OTOH, upscale prostitutes (I'm talking REAL upscale now, not the glorified mid-market that website independents occupy -- and if that glorified mid-market is all we're talking about here, then forgive me [but we ought to keep our terminology straight]) are MUCH more likely to engage in BBFS than more downmarket girls. They might assume, on the basis of an analysis like the one in Wwanderer's post, that their high-level white-collar clientele is going to be "cleaner" than the downmarket guys. But commercial sex consumers are a funny bunch. As I read someone say somewhere, you never can be sure that the CEO you've just fucked didn't buttfuck an illegally-imported 10-year-old Thai boy the afternoon before.

[justme]

So now high priced prostitutes are white collar?

[jseah]

no, just their clientele.

[galahad]

JL The market I am talking about is as defined by the board -400 and up per hour. Examples that most people in NYC would know are the Sasha's, Rebecca's and Tiffany's as Independents and the Elites, Angels, and Covergirls as agencies. Even at this level we are not talking a high volume of clients, most of which I would imagine make a decent living.

I realize there are not only more expensive, but layers of more expensive above. Somehow though I doubt they enter into this realm either as reader or poster.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justlooking
you never can be sure that the CEO you've just fucked didn't buttfuck an illegally-imported 10-year-old Thai boy the afternoon before.

There are a lot of things you can never be sure didn't happen.

-Ww

[hot4chicks]

Agreed with jl and Ww, but I think if you use some common sense, don't get carried away by the little head or some vodka, you can reduce your chances of catching diseases.

[danger-us]

Originally posted by slinkybender
But there's always hope.... :p :rolleyes: :eek:

I'm still waiting for this thread:

"Hey, guys, guess what? I just go Syphilis!"

[danger-us]

If you have a $1000 provider, shouldn't you have the lights on pretty bright so you can see this "amazing" beauty? It would seem missionary and any other postion where you can see the girl's face would be preferable.

And what about video equipment? LOL

[sweetamy]

When I was working at an escort agency, I've gone to so called "the $1000 call" many, many times. I've got tipped over that $1000 (I never ask for tips) and I've stayed for longer than one hour in that rate as well. Now that I'm indepenent, I charge less for one hour... I just wanted to say, hiring an escort isn't only a sex thing but also an experience. It's like dining. Going to McDonald's will make you full but give you a heartburn, finding a cheap and good restaurants are possible but takes a lot of research and going to a five star restaurants will alost always gurantee you a good food and outstanding service.
If a guy's looking for a cheap sex, they don't have to hire a companion, they should go a bar and spend money on drinks for some girl or simply just go home to your wife/girlfriend.

[sweetamy]

This proves that you don't even have to know how to read to get $1,000 an hour.

[pjorourke]

Amy, you might want to edit this post and remove your link. The rules of this board only allow you to provide that info via paid ads.

[popeye]

I am not posting the item below to flame you dear. But since you are here I thought maybe you would like to respond. I just thought I'd stir things up a bit. It has been dull today.

Another poster, who is very entertaining by the way, didn't seem too pleased with your service offerings. Please read as follows:

One to avoid & one to investigate...
The snow got me homesick for Quebec, so I visited the best place to get a snow job in NYC: Eros-ny.com, for the first time in a long time...Mon Dieu!

One to avoid:
There is a bubble-faced Japanese indie on it advertising as Amy with the
number 917 385-7104. Now this babe, who bears a close resemblance to
fugu, has a website called exepensive-snatch.com in which she purports
to charge the following:
A nibble (2-3 hours) $ 1000
Extra sweet dessert (3-6hours) $2000
Strawberries and Champagne (over night) $3000
Vacation for two (1day) $5000

If she gets anything close to this, then there is no God. I saw this Osaka reject about 2 years ago when she had an apartment operation in Manhattan under a different name-I think Yoko or something. The only thing uglier than that face was that attitude. I felt ripped off at $200.00. AT $1,000.00, I would feel suicidal. I think she is following the Million $ Pencil theory of marketing.

(Two blind men- one selling pencils at 3 for 10 cents. The other at 1 pencil for
$1 million. Guy walks up and says to the blind man with the $1 million pencils:
"Whaddaya nuts? Who's gonna buy from you at a million? Tons of people are
buying from your competitor right under your nose at 3 for 10 cents!"
Blind man smiles and says "Yeah, but I only gotta sell one!")

There's a sucker born every minute (and I made up for a couple of hours' worth) but to my fellow UGer's- avoid this one. It was mechanical, bitchy,
everything covered multiple times and really a poor attitude in 2 languages.

In fact, this chien and a few others like her were my reason for sending an
Open Letter to The Emperor of Japan (see another thread) which has been a constant source of trouble ever since.

[lonewolf69]

Popeye,

Amen, I saw her too, I of the poor suckers, what a rip off!!!

[teeduke]

Originally posted by Judge Crater
Guys who need commercial sex for a regular source of sexual satisfaction should stop patronizing prositutes and get a regular source of sexual satisfaction.

Such regular sources of sexual satisfaction also typically (if you play your cards right) provide emotional satisfaction - the pleasures and stability of consistent and dependable intimacy with another human being.

I agree with the judge's point. Patronizing professional providers can be pretty unsatisfying and one-dimensional—if that's all you do. Without some emotional connection, you're missing one of the more important aspects of sex and intimacy.

One of the great discoveries of my life is that you can establish that emotional connection with more than one person at a time. The challenge is that it takes quite an investment of yourself to do so. I'm not talking about money but time, caring,
being available, etc.

From my own personal experience I also know that I can't fake it, either. It's either real or it ain't happening.

There's also a limit to how many—let's call them intimate relationships—one is able to handle. Calling it a point of diminishing returns sounds crass, but that's more or less what it is.

[ARMAGEDDON]

I don't usually read this forum but found the comments interesting. In the past I've had a few porn stars with whom I had direct contact info but never paid more than $400. for the hour. Ayana was the last and that was in 2001! I find the sisters that I can get locally very interesting indeed and much more filling. My most recent "high end date" was Lacey Duvalle (woc) and I really can not post the price because it would not be fair. I use to see Lacey before her porn started( she used the name C......, there are reviews of her on TER) in LA. Well she was visiting "a friend" in NYC and contacted me in advance. I promised her to show her around and take her to a few popular clubs. I think she had some major money fly her out and she wanted to stay a little longer to see the sites. We practically spent a day and a half together having a blast! For the 3 hours that I paid for(and that was a bargain basement price) I guess you could have 3 sessions at Julie's. It wasn't about the money. I have several ladies that I keep in contact from the west coast. All WOC"s

[jseah]

Originally posted by ARMAGEDDON
I have several ladies that I keep in contact from the west coast. All WOC"s

I think pswope is gonna be your new best friend...:D LOL

[ARMAGEDDON]

think pswope is gonna be your new best friend... LOL

I think pswope has been in the game a much longer time than me. I just started a few years back, but the cultivation of contacts goes back much further. I think he sees a lot more providers than myself also.

[Bill Furniture]

I just bought Ayana's Booty Talk #23 today while I was in Manhattan. Her scene was fucking awesome!!!

[ARMAGEDDON]

Which one is that of Ayana's, does she start outside getting down. She just did an anal one I need to pick that one up. She is a sweet heart too. Top of the line, she has class and wild as hell too. I've seen her outside of the hobby.

[Bill Furniture]

Originally posted by ARMAGEDDON
Which one is that of Ayana's, does she start outside getting down.

yes.

she's too expensive for me though.

[ARMAGEDDON]

Sorry Bill but you did try Ahvani first. lol I met Ayana in ATL and her rate was lower there. She does still give me that rate but I have not seen her for some time. We had an appointment the day the towers were hit but fortunately she was still out of town. Her rate has gone up a bit and she also offers PSE now. I might ad that the major reason I first saw her was because of her reviews on TER. There were two reviews about her taking a trip to greece, which were fake. And since I could not discuss this ahead of time with her I was a little disappointed. She was amused and after sending her the reviews she figured it was an ex b/f trying to be vengeful. Her rates are not that much more than Ahvani(not speaking about PSE) but maybe you can save a little by stopping the perfume for a little. lol Oh by the way she has an anal video I need to pick up.

[Bill Furniture]

ayana's scene was one of the best porn scenes I have ever ...seen.

[ARMAGEDDON]

I forgot Lacey Duvalle is on maternity leave just recently.

[Kate Courtesan]

Originally posted by justme
HNS -

A) What kind of emotional energy do you think that you are expending?

B) commercial sex is about more than physical release

OK, so there's this super fine line here. Because I'm all fucked up, I need some sort of semblance of genuine emotion before I can enjoy paying someone to fuck me. By genuine emotion, I'm not referring to any kind of 'falling for' sentiment, simply a knowledge that the particular prostitute finds me not totally repulsive, maybe even that she prefers me to other clients (typing that, I feel lame beyond all fucking belief).

If all commercial sex provided me was physical release, I'd stay home and masterbate. Because in the end, no matter who you're with, what you've paid, or what you've done, it always ends exactly the same. So it's gotta be about how you get there, not the actual release.

But even when I build a great rapport with a prostitute, that relationship does not extend into my real life. It's strictly limited to sessions. It certainly does not extend to my apartment at 7:00 pm after a really crappy day of work. It certainly doesn't extend to after a particularly disasterous conversation with my parents. And even if I were to go run out and pay a prostitute to fuck me whenever I had a bad day, it still wouldn't really be close to the same thing.

So while commercial sex provides me with more than a release, it is disasterously bad at providing me with the things that I really want out of a relationship.


(Arghh... the duality to this is my fucked up libido that means that when I find some great woman that can provide me with all those fantastic warm things, generally (with only one exception) she does not want to have sex with nearly the unreasonable frequency that I do.)


C) The real danger, I think, with prostitution (for the single guy) is that I think extreme proficiency at forming faux emotional contacts within the context of a sexual situation will really screw with your forming genuine emotional contacts within the context of a broader romantic relationship. A have yet to rationalize C) away.

Well, while I was girding myself not to feel the urge to comment within the "HER" section, I see Caitlin was able to post without being lambasted, and I won't be the only female* to post in this thread. SW's comments go without acknowledgement here for obvious reasons.

So, justme, I feel the need to help a guy out, as is my wont to do.

The conflicting ideologies you are feeling are attributed to differences in separate motivations between seeking sex and seeking emotional connection.

It is man's biological instinct and nature to conquer and propogate, and as he is the hunter (bless him), so it goes without saying the need for sex is biological. We are animals, after all. Hence, when you are stressed or irritated, your body chemistry is altered when in a heightened state of pressure and level of hormones which drive the need to HUNT for sex and overtake the opposite sex are changed in response to these stressors. This is physiological need that is chemically induced.

On the other hand, these stresses also produce another brand of chemicals and hormones which increase your need for a mutually nurturing relationship with the opposite sex. These chemicals are much longer lasting than the "hunting" inducements, so the feelings of loneliness and need for a connection are valid, but while motivated by the same external forces, they are engaged by a separate chemical suite altogether. This is the psychological need that is chemically induced.

Factor into this, the coupling of these chemical responses butting up against your conditioned responses according to the religious or familial influences of your beliefs system. You are physiologically seeking to hunt for sex, psychologically seeking a mutually nurturing relationship, but you are taught that it is incorrect to hunt for the sex without the emotional component as a precursor. Makes for a lot of time consuming confusion beating around the bush and self persecution, which you're obviously experiencing, but this is just one atheist's opinion, worth nothing.

But, I digress. To continue....

Some men generate higher levels of those "hunting" chemicals than men who generate higher levels of those "comforting/connecting" chemicals, thus the differences in various individuals' pursuits of a non-emotional connection in hobbying, and those geared toward requiring the emotional connection to reach fulfillment.

(...continued...)

* Sorry, Amy, I didn't see your contributions to this thread until after this was written.

[Kate Courtesan]

Overall, it just sounds like you are simply balanced, and while you feel the instinctual need to "hunt and overtake" the opposite sex according to your libido (an entirely correct feeling, I might add), you additionally feel an equal amount of instinctual need to "connect and be comforted" by the opposite sex in your pursuits. Factor into this the "shame" you've been conditioned to feel in response to your instincts, and I can see where you are feeling quite conflicted.

My advice would be to discard the religious undertones which may be affecting your conscious in how much of an emotional connection you need in order to have a more wholly satisfying participation with a provider, and really see that what you are seeking at the most basic levels -- plural, as your need to hunt and your need to nurture are completely different animals, so to speak, if interrelated.

In the relationship between a mistress and married man, the mistress typically understands the importance, nay - the REQUIREMENT - of the marriage, and the importance of the reality of the man's motivations in these separate veins. For satisfaction of his needs of nuturing comfort, he may have his wife, who provides solace and companionship satisfying most of his needs for nurturing and comfort. She could be, by all THESE accounts, his best friend in life. For his hunting activities, he has his mistress (or encounters through commercial sex), who provides the playful sexual pursuits and inhibitions he lusts to hunt, but cannot be realizes within the scope of his marriage, and in most cases, he needs both to contribute to the needs of the whole in order to find comprehensive satisfaction and be happy in balance.

Take notice that the men who are most well balanced and happy in their sexual pursuits within this hobby are happily married, and happily getting on the side what isn't wholly provided at home. That's a pretty important factor when it comes to overall level of satisfaction and balance, and achieving true happiness for a man.

Any mistress worth her salt realizes the importance to be both sexual companion and muse to the man's mind and marriage, making every effort to ensure the marriage remains intact, and that he has more than anything else, balanced satisfaction of both of these needs. This is not a hesitant obligation, but the surest insurance to her own survival. In the immortal words of Mademoiselle Shelby Cobra, "When there is no marriage, there is no mistress."

In some sense, you are correct to feel that you are not going to find what you would like from this hobby exclusively, except to have an extended string of arm's-distance not-quite-romantically-intimate relationships with GFE-Plus providers by which the ideal will never be realized and falls short of what you really need -- which is to have your cake (a comfortable romantically intimate relationship or marriage), and eat it too (hunt and conquer as your libido sees fit). Yes, this is the forumla to a happy and lasting marriage, and a happily fulfilled and productive life, as I see it. This is partly due to the fact that a woman ages through her own sex drives much more quickly than the man will over the course of a lasting marriage. While she's going through menopause, he in his early 60's still has a sex drive very equivalent to that in his early 30's. In essense, he outlasts her in the stamina of sexual drive and instinct by a long shot -- a very big, long shot.

In short, dump the guilt and feed your desires as they come, whether for sport or solace -- or both where you might be lucky enough to find them (this audience is SRO, so be sure to post reviews and access info). Seek a nurturing relationship, or seek a lot of sex, but as a single guy, you probably aren't going to find both in the same place for a lasting relationship.

So -- getting back to the topic; the differences between average rate providers and high end providers? It's my opinion that those that actually have experience in patronizing both "average" and "high end" providers alike to a fairly experienced degree have the most heavily weighted opinions on the subject.

I also feel it should be noted there is a very big difference between paying the high rates for a porn start due to her celebrity, and paying high rates for a courtesan due to her ability to meet the "all things to a man" level of companionship required to command this rate level. There is a tremendous difference in the level of participation investment between these two provider types that stands a tremendous amount of recognition, and divides this thread into two entirely separate discussions.

KC

[h. von bingen]

this is puerile crapola. can't u do better?

i feel like diogenes, except with girlz except with arguments,
hvb

[Kate Courtesan]

Diogenes? My post is a far cry from being anywhere near cynical; neither the "stoic self-sufficiency or a rejection of luxury."

Please, be my guest. The floor is yours.

KC

[h. von bingen]

try again.

it's really much more simple.

ex temporanea,
hvb

[pswope]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
this is puerile crapola. can't u do better?

i feel like diogenes, except with girlz except with arguments,
hvb
word (since I've been accused of overdittoing) and verbose as well.* Rationalization is a bitch.


* KC- I'll defend your right to post to the death and encourage to continue. Please understand that the attack is on your ideas and not you.

[pswope]

Arma

I've just cut loose all my WOCs,be glad to give you my black book. I don't think your Cali WOCs would fit into my budget (ps one of the hottest looking WOCs came from SFran and spent about 6 months here b4 disappearing. Unfortunately,that ladyhad more Hustle than Pete Rose in his prime)

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by pswope
Please understand that the attack is on your ideas and not you.

adjectively speaking, puerile crapola is not an ad feminum attack; i do believe, grammatically, there is something of parallel problem. the correct ad fem attack would go more like: hvb is a shithead spewing arguments that are puerile crapola, no?

how goes the struggle?

world, flesh, devil,
hvb

[pswope]

hvB
Your time here has not been a total waste. You learned subtlety,finesse, and diplomacy (honestly). As well as getting lunkheads like me to get it.

(and I dig that you've stayed away from gender polemics)

Reach out and & touch
somebody's hand

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by pswope
hvB
Your time here has not been a total waste.

there are dozens who would disagree (and 1/2 of them are me).

(and I dig that you've stayed away from gender polemics)


it's easy to do when u've done time at fancy ivy league schools. hearing enough of that crap coming out of the mouths of uppermiddle class white girls who have never worked hard a day in their life much less fucked hard a day in their life (or fucked hard to work or worked hard to fuck for that matter), makes the knee jerk pc feminist position much less palatable. + i'm pretty sure i have a y chromosome (at least when it comes to pretty girls).

thanks,
hvb

[pjorourke]

HvB, maybe its just me not being a former ivy denizen, but I got a much better understanding of KC's point of view (regardless of whether I agree with it) from the 800 some words she wrote than I did from your comment of "puerile crapola". Perhaps you could flesh out your point of view a bit more. It doesn't have to be in Iambic Pentameter.

[JackT]

Originally posted by pswope
I've just cut loose all my WOCs,be glad to give you my black book.

Nowadays if I'm not mistaken I think the term is African American book.

;)

[pswope]

I guess more approprately my WOC book.

[h. von bingen]

obvious, i can't even bother. u know 'em, i don't have to restate 'em.

(and your response re: the ivies is misplaced. my point was that gender polemics (of the type to which i think u refer) emerged* from that primeval ooze and the discussion was formulated by those who don't know any better. believe u me, i don't think many ivy-league educations lead to many kinds of special enlightenment at all.

if i have a problem, it is that i get amped up for an eloquent exposition with no payoff. think the of the case of the well-hustling** clean stripper. that is why i responded with less than cardozian insight. sorry, i should have wrote: "this is puerile crapola!" hvb ejaculates. (however counter the verb is to the imagery.) i suppose in your book i should i have said: this is a puerile analysis for reasons a, b, c, d. it seems i hold women to a higher standard, especially ones with intellectual aspirations.

btw some of my best work has been done after having a paper hurled back at me with only the comment: this is puerile crap. (i added "ola" for an international flavor.)

u know how ms ross is: do i say, not as i do,
hvb

*i know i know. or before or before
**in the rosian meaning of the word.

[BigMadM]

Originally posted by pswope
I guess more approprately my WOC book.

Reading is one of the only things I still enjoy doing besides hobbying.(I would love to read this book Swope)

[vegasjim]

Originally posted by BigMadM
Reading is one of the only things I still enjoy doing besides hobbying.(I would love to read this book Swope)

Good to see you still reading the boards and posting once in awhile. Hope all has been well for you.

[Kate Courtesan]

Thanks, pswope.

Ultimately, the post was specified to someone else, and certainly wouldn't hold true for a substantial number of members of the board for obvious reasons. I didn't expect anyone to understand it other than the person for whom it was written. That would actually require a certain level of empathy for the person in question.

hbv, sorry to learn your professors lacked the interpersonal communication skills to help in your education, though I can't say I blame their avoidance. However, a debate is typified by presenting points (or countering) which justify and validate one's position. Relating "a, b, c, d" would be helpful as it refers to the position you would like to hold in counter argument, to avoid exhibiting Tourette's and being called an asshole in the future. Additionally, comments should be directed toward the substance of the position you would like to counter, versus the person countered. Sorry to say, I did not go to an ivy league school; just worked my ass off since I was 12, since I didn't come from an upper middle class family. I'm more what people would call "salt of the earth" type, if you understand its meaning. ;^)

PJ, since having spent so much time with Shelby lately (I realize I hadn't exactly 'fessed up to this earlier, but that was necessary), it seems like every time we have a conversation about something, it crops up on the boards somewhere a few days later. LOL I'm feeling like "The Great Carsoni...." ;^)

KC

[h. von bingen]

i went to an ivy league school, worked my ass off since i was 12 and didn't come from an upper middle class family. i wouldn't call myself "salt of the earth" (but of course i wouldn't use such a hackneyed expression in any case).

re: yr discussion of professorship and counterargument. high up on the best law professors' c.v.s, under cr****tials (right up there with rhodes and law review), generally is: "shockingly poor interpersonal skills." i think the idea is that one should learn to think for themselves, not be handed the answers. i didn't really get what you were trying to say wrt tourettes and asshole, but n.b. btw, "to avoid" and "being" ought to be parallel.

finally, i didn't attack YOU*(see response to ps). i just thought yr argument was puerile and sophmoric. Wrt to its content, it would really be a waste of time to respond point by point to something so unoriginal (and i don't mean this disrespectfully, meaningful gender discourse far exceeded the limits of your argument awhile ago).

i was just disappointed b/c i am looking for a provider who can make an argument based on a more academic conception of gender politics. of course, hh and sexywhore do it winningly all the time.

finally, here's some (genuine) good advice: try not to write to impress, i.e. write more like you speak naturally. trying to "sound smart" is not only stilted but unpersuasive.

thanks for the definition of debate,
justifying and validating,
hvb

*an ad hominem attack would be more like, say, if i were to say: "bite me." which, of course i would never do (another hackneyed cliche).

bisous,
hvb

[Wwanderer]

If you ladies are not careful, Slinky will start a poll for everyone to try to guess what your SAT score was...

-Ww

[Slinky Bender]

Has anyone noticed how absent Ww has been from the stripper threads?

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by slinkybender
Has anyone noticed how absent Ww has been from the stripper threads?

Have you missed me, SB? I'm touched...really!

And I notice that I am still the sixth biggest contributer to that one absolutely enormous stripper thread though I have not contributed to it significantly in several weeks, during all of which it was quite active. So, I guess I was really over the top for a while.

Anyway, if you check, I think you will find that I have been way below my previous posting rate on UG in all types of threads, and if you could check my other screen names on other net forums, you would see that I have been similarly quiet in those places.

I have been a) in Japan (with Hannah of Tokyo!) and b) very busy. But I can't really see how to explain why/how without outing myself. In any case, I have missed UG and all my pals here (not to mention my future-life-wife). I hope to get back to normal net life over the next few weeks (note the verb).

-Ww

[Bill Furniture]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Have you missed me, SB? I'm touched...really!

I have been a) in Japan (with Hannah of Tokyo!) and b) very busy. But I can't really see how to explain why/how without outing myself. In any case, I have missed UG and all my pals here (not to mention my future-life-wife). I hope to get back to normal net life over the next few weeks (note the verb).

-Ww

We all missed you.:rolleyes:

Now where's the review of Hannah?

[justme]

Originally posted by Kate Courtesan
So, justme, I feel the need to help a guy out, as is my wont to do.

A few observations on your post.

1.) I have had several 'fuck buddies' from whom I had great non-nurturing, guilt free sex. When I say I need emotion in sex, I'm not referring to nurturing emotion. Certainly, a nurturing woman is not required for me to have sex (guiltlessly).

2.) While I am fairly aware of the chemical nature of our brain (and how), I find it much better to be a human than an animal.

3.) I have no need to hunt or overtake. Basically, I have an unhealthy obsession with sex. I imagine I'd do have a nice codependant, dysfunctional relationship with a woman who was also unhealthily obsessed with sex. Wait, that's not imagination, that's recollection.

4.) I find it morally reprehensible, and ultimately self destructive, to be involved with two women, one of whom assumes that my relationship with her is sexually exclusive. This has less to do with any religious underpinnings than it does with a certainty that it is irreponsibly selfish to put your own needs in front of those that you are supposedly surrendered to.

5.) Your approach is tempting because it is immediately self serving. It is ultimately wrong because it is ultimately self defeating. Of course, I am a hopeless romantic.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Bill Furniture
Now where's the review of Hannah?

Short form version: my absolute, unrivaled all time favorite (that's ATF to you TLA addicts) in nearly 30 years of hobbying all over the country and the world, upscale and downscale, incall and outcall, indie, agency gal, brothel lady, street walker, massage parlor, all hair colors, races, body types, service styles...you name it.

Long form version will have to await my having more time and greater inspiration.

-Ww

[Kate Courtesan]

Thank you, hbv, for correcting me. Certainly your ivy league education makes you a far better human being than I could ever aspire to become.

As for we lowly, hardworking, "salt of the earth" types, we prefer to not let our education foster frosty pretentions over others, regardless of social status or background. More often than not we simply refer to the golden rule in our daily interactions with others, and not look down our noses at those less fortunate that ourselves.

I wish you much continued success in your journey to prove superiority to all others,

KC

[h. von bingen]

i don't look down on anybody. ok, maybe jl, but he is SHORT. ivy league did nothing for me but made me another day older and deeper in debt. as for g-d (3 in one), he's more central in my existence than you could possibly imagine. (check out e.g. hildegard von bingen and the beguines.) i know u want to be smart, and you can be. just don't try so hard. (word)

res ipsa baby,
hvb

sat poll? who remembers? o, i forgot, I DO.
stripper is to jl as
streetwalker is to . . . .

or sohcahtoa,

[Kate Courtesan]

I really don't aspire to be smart, just real. I hoped my opinions would be taken as just that; opinions. I'm not attempting to write a dissertation, just present what I have learned in context to what I have experienced. This is just life; not education alone.

In my experience, and this could be construed as being quite limited, I have found that people are most comfortable, balanced and happy when allowed to follow their instincts and experiences. To me, this is just being genuine, honest, and true to one's self. And it may have to do with my own religious upbringing, which included, "All is forgiven, and everything is permissible, in moderation." This may seem fairly basic, but it is a much more honest and deliberate way to live, thinking for yourself, than relying upon an insular education to tell you how to live as an automaton and think according to religion, philosophers and professors with no original thought.

I honestly don't see any reason to discourage someone from simply being themselves, yourself included. Aside from regurgitating your professors and texts, who are you as a person? I don't think you are a very considerate or sympathetic person, and maybe those pretentions that are fostered by an ivy league education have hardened you to your genuine appeal, because all you have done is show pretention and superiority to me in this forum. The only impression you've given me is that you're a gender snob; an impression which could have been easily avoidable had you been hospitable in the least. But, I realize such things are not taught at our institutions of higher learning, so this is outside the scope of your personality. People are much more enjoyable once all the pretentions and egos have been set aside.

KC

[Geezy Muldoon]

hvb/KC:

Ladies, play nice.

If you can't play nice, please get lots bitchier and start ripping each other's hair out*.

Then charge the men here to watch.




Best, etc.


Judge Crater




*Perhaps the best cat fight I ever saw was between my older sister and a girl who later became one of her closest friends before her untimely death from breast cancer. They were approximately 16. Both were wearing their Color Guard costumes at the local football stadium after a game. It was, prosaically enough, about a boy who wasn't even worth fighting about. My sister kicked the other girl's ass (all women in my family are natural born killers), but not without some pretty good blows being struck first. A most entertaining dust-up for a 10 year old boy to witness.

[sod]

I don't know that hvb would let it(?)self get dragged down into that kind of a mess. I've baited hvb in other threads to no avail. Then again, I think hvb's comment was that Nico's solo work was better than the Velvets' output. Maybe I was the one being baited?

[Kate Courtesan]

I'll decline due to lack of interest in seeing hbv pour her insecurities out onto the board, and it would only see her further backpedaling into her narcissistic personality disorder to do so.

KC

[pjorourke]

Ding! Round Two!

[Wwanderer]

If this dispute has anything to do with the real Ivy League and what goes on there, I sure can't see it.

-Ww

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by sod
I don't know that hvb would let it(?)self get dragged down into that kind of a mess. I've baited hvb in other threads to no avail. Then again, I think hvb's comment was that Nico's solo work was better than the Velvets' output. Maybe I was the one being baited?

if u baited me in more stilted english, i would bite back. believe, it or not, the last post before this one was an attempt at diplomacy. guess i'll go back to litigating. (and you know i'm a girl, so quit it! isn't preferring nico proof enuf?)

i've been out walking,
hvb

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
If this dispute has anything to do with the real Ivy League and what goes on there, I sure can't see it.

-Ww

it doesn't have anything to do with anything. (on the other hand, what does it have to do with high end hookers?)

on another note, i've been thinking of changing my chant from om ma padme om to nohm gyo rengi kyo, whaddya think? all those tibetans care about is world peace, i understand the nichiren's can help me find my keys when they're lost.

lost in dharamsala,
hvb

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
it doesn't have anything to do with anything. (on the other hand, what does it have to do with high end hookers?)

on another note, i've been thinking of changing my chant from om ma padme om to nohm gyo rengi kyo, whaddya think? all those tibetans care about is world peace, i understand the nichiren's can help me find my keys when they're lost.

lost in dharamsala,
hvb

The nichies I've met certainly always seem to know *exactly* where their keys are, but I'd go with

Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate, Bodhi Svaha!

if you want me to pick the next song on the karmic juke box.

-Ww

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Judge Crater
hvb/KC:

Ladies, play nice.

If you can't play nice, please get lots bitchier and start ripping each other's hair out*.

Then charge the men here to watch.




Best, etc.


Judge Crater




*Perhaps the best cat fight I ever saw was between my older sister and a girl who later became one of her closest friends before her untimely death from breast cancer. They were approximately 16. Both were wearing their Color Guard costumes at the local football stadium after a game. It was, prosaically enough, about a boy who wasn't even worth fighting about. My sister kicked the other girl's ass (all women in my family are natural born killers), but not without some pretty good blows being struck first. A most entertaining dust-up for a 10 year old boy to witness.

oddly enough, i've never gotten into a physical altercation with a women. is it because i'm a pacifist? is it because the urge to make love is greater than the urge to make war? u know like what seinfeld said: the reasons men like catfights so much is because they secretly hope the girls will start making out. and on that subject --

hombre and i were having a conversation about this equation today: the more two women look alike the more u want to see them make out. e.g. susan sarandon was on the view today as was linda lopez . (jenifer lopez's sister, who hombre thinks is much hotter and i am undecided about.)

i speculated that i would like to see linda lopez make out with susan sarandon. then i said: no even better, ll & meredith viera. hombre, who was at the office on the phone and not actually watching, said linda lopez and daisy fuentes. then we started discussing the theory re: the more two women look alike the more u want to see them make out, reaching critical mass at twins of course. what do think about this theory? i think it may be thread-worthy.

also u need to write a play based on the frog theory. (i have no idea what it is and i am too indolent to search.) a musical this time perhaps? or at the very least iambic pent.

u rabblerouser u,
hvb

[Geezy Muldoon]

hvb:

As near as I can tell, Bob the Needy Guy in Mrs. Chong's Debut is the perfect exponent of Frog's Theory.


JC

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Judge Crater
hvb:

As near as I can tell, Bob the Needy Guy in Mrs. Chong's Debut is the perfect exponent of Frog's Theory.
JC

twin makeout theory? u only discuss yr own theories? that's kind of selfish. what are u an ivy league professor? the theory is veritably einsteinian.*

disappointed,
hvb

*lest anyone think i am devolving into narcissistic self aggrandizement, i am refering to einstein's twin theory.

i'll always be younger and more modest than the judge,
hvb

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
If this dispute has anything to do with the real Ivy League and what goes on there, I sure can't see it.

-Ww

the title of this thread has something to do with the ivy league. it is their myth and their motto.

hvb, ha ha ha

[Geezy Muldoon]

hvb:

The visual and erotic effect of twins making love is similar to that of having two Siamese cats.

Every gentleman's club should feature at least one pair of naked twins intertwined on the communal dining table as sort of conversation piece.


Best, etc.


JC

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
the title of this thread has something to do with the ivy league. it is their myth and their motto.

Hee, hee...very clever indeed. I wonder how it sounds in latin.

-Ww

[Danielle]

Originally posted by justlooking
Since there's been some confusion about this before, it should be pointed out that Thorn is talking about Danielle at F/Stop, not Danielle the pseudonymous UG poster.

Oh God. I just started reading this thread on someone else's reccomendation and was a bit surprised to discover my '6' status. Firstly because I don't think Thorn and I know eachother and secondly because while in the world of dancers I probably am a six, I assumed he was referring to the world of sex workers as a whole. Which in turn greatly depressed me. But now I feel lots better. Glad that's been cleared up.

[JackT]

(another one whose first assumption is a RELATIVE ratings scale)

[justlooking]

Yeah, but I'll bet she'd be shocked to find out that the "sex workers'" relative scale is lower rather than higher than the "all-women" scale.

[justme]

Well, she definitely sees that it's lower than the 'dancer' relative scale.

[justlooking]

And, getting back to old stories, the very first stripper-turned-prostitute I ever knew claimed to me that it wasn't -- that the Prostitute Relative Scale was higher than the Stripper Relative Scale. (I think she was trying to reconcile herself to the fact that she was doing better as a prostitute than she had as a stripper.) Even back then, when I didn't know anything about anything, I knew enough to know she was fooling herself.

[justlooking]

Getting back to topic, I never really thought of it this way, but "expensive" prostitutes tend to be better-looking than the general population of women and "cheap" prostitutes tend to be worse-looking.

The guys who don't use "expensive" prostitutes, and the prostitutes who aren't "expensive" prostitutes, try to reconcile themselves to this by claiming that, generally speaking, you get bad service from these attractive "expensive" prostitutes.

Of course, the fact of the matter is that, generally speaking, that's a load of shit.

[justme]

This makes sense, of course, as the only thing a prostitute can really charge a premium for is looks. And we'd expect service to be somewhat uniformly distributed.

As I've said before, however, I think that the 'net review culture is changing this a little.

[Danielle]

Originally posted by justlooking
Getting back to topic, I never really thought of it this way, but "expensive" prostitutes tend to be better-looking than the general population of women and "cheap" prostitutes tend to be worse-looking.

The guys who don't use "expensive" prostitutes, and the prostitutes who aren't "expensive" prostitutes, try to reconcile themselves to this by claiming that, generally speaking, you get bad service from these attractive "expensive" prostitutes.

Of course, the fact of the matter is that, generally speaking, that's a load of shit.

So true. So I guess you guys would all make out the best if you each discovered your own diamond in the rough or two. It seems like the best option is a provider whose 1) Better looking than average 2) Gives better than average service 3) charges a reasonable rate considering the other factors.
I'd assume there must be quite a bit of trial and error involved in the discovery process.
Question:
Are you ever satisfied once you've found a great provider, orr does the search never really end? Is the real satisfaction in the hunt and conquest, or in knowing that your expectations will be met consistently for the same mutually agreed upon price?

[Danielle]

Originally posted by justlooking
Yeah, but I'll bet she'd be shocked to find out that the "sex workers'" relative scale is lower rather than higher than the "all-women" scale.

Really?!
Doesn't the "all-women" scale include lepers and amputees? Oh, wait a second, I get it. Nevermind. Gross.

[Cloud Nine]

Originally posted by Danielle
Question:
Are you ever satisfied once you've found a great provider, orr does the search never really end? Is the real satisfaction in the hunt and conquest, or in knowing that your expectations will be met consistently for the same mutually agreed upon price?

Does the fact that JL has an open line of credit at the Liberty answer this question for you?

[justlooking]

You know, C9, part of it is the manic quest for variety, as you say.

But at least in my case at least as big a part of it is that, if you go in for prospecting the way Danielle describes (and I certainly do), you always have to have a lot of things going and you never know when one is going to pan out. A stripper you've been in discussions with for a while might suddenly and unexpectedly come around. Or you might meet a new one who's immediately congenial (by which I guess I mean in immediate financial need). At the same time, you have to keep seeing the people you're seeing, or else they'll move on to greener pastures. And sometimes, things just otherwise unexpectedly fall into your lap (like last night, when a stunningly beautiful PS/UTR girl who's just moved in with her boyfriend and decided there's no more room for someone like me in her life figured that, as a sort of last hurrah, she'd pass me on to one of her also stunning girlfriends, who clearly had never done anything commercially before, by way of a threesome)(I'm still pinching myself over that experience).

What I'm trying to say is that in order to succeed at the prospecting approach you have to do it the same way you do business development: you have to always be alert for possibilities, and you have to grab them as soon as they appear.

[justlooking]

Also, to further answer Danielle's question, you need to find more than a "diamond in the rough or two". You need several. Because especially if you're going to less traditional sources than normal working prostitutes, women aren't available whenever you might want them to be. So you have to have several possibilities ready.

I mean, in my case right now, there's clearly one person I'm seeing who I enjoy more than everybody else. But between her work life and her personal life, her availability is both sporadic and unpredictable. If I were seeing just her, well, it would be difficult.

[justlooking]

PS to Cloud Nine --

I sign in under a different name every time I go there.

I'm sure they don't even know I'm the same person.

[buddyyy]

Originally posted by SkellyChamp


If Marianne Miller had turned out to be real, I definitely would have seen her regardless of whether her fee was out of this world (e.g. $2000) because I just thought she was stunning.



Marianne Miller is real (http://community.webshots.com/photo/63152695/63152976EBWpJt).

They say everyone has their price. If you find out what hers is could you let me know?

[pjorourke]

buddyyy, I particularly enjoyed the picture of your wife taking a shower.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking

What I'm trying to say is that in order to succeed at the prospecting approach you have to do it the same way you do business development: you have to always be alert for possibilities, and you have to grab them as soon as they appear.


Originally posted by justlooking
you need to find more than a "diamond in the rough or two". You need several. Because especially if you're going to less traditional sources than normal working prostitutes, women aren't available whenever you might want them to be. So you have to have several possibilities ready.

you realize that wrt to human capital, this is gross, right?

[justlooking]

You realize that with respect to human capital, everything is gross, right?

[h. von bingen]

less so and more, yes.

[justlooking]

Or, to put it another way, you realize that there is no way to make commercial sex anything other than fundamentally disgusting, right?

[h. von bingen]

i don't think i agree, but perhaps the best it can be is NOT fundamentally disgusting.

[justlooking]

Actually, I might even agree with you about that.

[h. von bingen]

jl, i'm going to say something extremely incendiary, but i think it fits in this case.

you and i both know of instances in history wherein the most cultivated members of society are capable of the most heinous crimes. i think by any barometer, you would could be considered a cultivated man. what value cultivation if not to civilize? when you explain it to yourself, how do you rationalize the baseness of this kind of human commodification with the other areas in your life in which such baseness would be completely unacceptable? if you do not wish to answer this question, i completely understand.

[justlooking]

The answer to that question is probably the base root meaning of everything I've ever written on a whoreboard:

I can't rationalize it.

Really, that's all I ever write about, isn't it?

[h. von bingen]

[nevermind]

[justlooking]

[OK. Nevermind.]

[h. von bingen]

[ok. nevermind.]

what upsets me about your behaviour (as does the behaviour of civilized societies and their capabilities) is that it upends my understanding of the possibilities for humanity. it's about ME, not you, you understand.

[justlooking]

I wouldn't have much hope about the possibilities for humanity if I were you.

[h. von bingen]

but, unfortunately for me, i do.

[buddyyy]

Originally posted by pjorourke
buddyyy, I particularly enjoyed the picture of your wife taking a shower.

Glad to hear that.

Do you have an extra copy, I can't seem to find mine.

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by buddyyy
Glad to hear that.

Do you have an extra copy, I can't seem to find mine.

[changed my mind]

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
I wouldn't have much hope about the possibilities for humanity if I were you.

btw this is actually one of the most useful things anyone has ever said to me.

i grew up in an environment of chaos, violence and inhumanity. for a long time i thought that if the environment was not chaotic and violent, but rather predictable and cultivated, i would find a recipe for humanity. for some time now i have been coming to the realization that cultivation does not ensure increased humanity, rather it may provide a veneer under which more subtle acts of dehumanization can occur. maybe this is a given for the more dissolute, however, for me it has been real epiphany.

the abject cynicism of your statement seals the deal for me pretty nicely. apparently all the education in the world cannot ensure a good life. i repair to examine other (and perhaps simpler) options.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justlooking
I wouldn't have much hope about the possibilities for humanity if I were you.

Oh, I don't know. Can you name any group that is doing better? Or, for example, who invented the standards by which you judge humanity to be without much hope?

In any case, it is at least clearer to me why you are so consistently disappointed by (or disgusted with) your fellow hobbyists, providers and, most importantly, your own behavior in this realm. It is a subset of a much larger issue for you. Best wishes.

-Ww

[justlooking]

At least I'm consistent.

I don't want to start a fight or seem self-righteous, Wwanderer, but it seems to me like your moral standards are a more sophisticated, experienced, and better-read variant of "I'm OK, you're OK". Which is fine if you want to feel OK. But doesn't, to me, provide much of a compass.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
for some time now i have been coming to the realization that cultivation does not ensure increased humanity, rather it may provide a veneer under which more subtle acts of dehumanization can occur.

Knowing that what you're doing is wrong is a start, though, isn't it? (Not that that has squat to do with cultivation.)

[h. von bingen]

starting at the very beginning is a very good place to start.

however, too often i use "knowing that i am doing wrong as a start" as a refuge. after all, how long after i realize i am doing something wrong can i reasonably continue to do it without changing my behaviour? but, that's just me, well not justme, just me -- hvb.

(oth i can't be taken seriously, it's obvious by my hopefulness re: the possibilities for humanity that i'm just a corny naif. that sentiment always loses me a seat at the table of really serious intellectuals.)

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justlooking
I don't want to start a fight or seem self-righteous, Wwanderer, but it seems to me like your moral standards are a more sophisticated, experienced, and better-read variant of "I'm OK, you're OK". Which is fine if you want to feel OK. But doesn't, to me, provide much of a compass.

jl, if you think it is an interesting issue to discuss, please don't worry about starting a fight as far as I am concerned. It is pretty difficult to offend me with ascii strings. (Not meant as a challenge or a dare, to anyone, in case that wasn't clear.)

As for the "I'm OK, you're OK" characterization of my moral standards, I'd make several replies:

- First, although simple and flip, I'd have to agree that it does catch the general spirit of my stance/views.

- Second, it seems to me that your approach is about equally well characterized by "I'm rotten, you're rotten". Which is fine if you want to feel rotten but may not provide any better moral compass in the end. If I have understood many of your previous posts correctly, you condemn a lot of your own behaviors but find that condemnation useless in changing them. I think feeling OK is a better outcome than feeling rotten, especially if you are not going to change anyway.

- Third, if I wanted to characterize or maybe caricature, my own moral standards with a few simple and familiar words, I'd choose a different set:

"Row, row, row your boat,
Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,
Life is but a dream."

(Italics added.)
They actually seem sort of profound to me at times, 3 lines of really good advice about how to conduct oneself and one line of how to understand it all.


Finally and more generally, I think the issue of whether people are good or bad is definitely one of those glass half-full vs half-empty things. In reality, the world and life is crammed with people behaving incredibly, unbelievably and enormously both well and poorly. This is true whether we are discussing history's famous and extreme examples or the most banal episodes of our everyday lives. Depending on what you look for you can find all the examples you could ever want of people being either extremely noble and inspiring or incredibly brutish and disgusting. If you only, or mostly, see just one or the other, I think you are basically projecting your own biases and mood, not describing reality...which is all about yin and yang etc.

-Ww


PS - Since you said kind words about my being well read, you might enjoy reading a (quite) short story by Ursala K LeGuin called "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas", re these topics.

[justlooking]

Or, The Two Cultures

When science types start recommending Ursala K LeGuin for guidance on moral/ethical discourse, we humanists usually dive under the table.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justlooking
Or, The Two Cultures
When science types start recommending Ursala K LeGuin for guidance on moral/ethical discourse, we humanists usually dive under the table.

Have you read it? Not her usual stuff, btw, and well thought of by some i know, whom we might call cr****tialed humanists.

But anyway, the PS was just that, not the main point of my post.

-Ww

[justlooking]

Of course I haven't read it. I'm sure I couldn't dismiss it out of hand if I had.

[justlooking]

Seriously, as for the "Row row row your boat" thing, I think that shows our difference. I don't think "life is but a dream". Dreams don't have consequences. Actions taken in life do.

The problem I have with your approach is that it leads to complacency. I know you hashed this all out with justme, and I really don't want to have a lengthy discussion of this on a whoreboard, but I'm at a loss to understand how someone like you decides what the right thing to do is. (And I'm sure you understand that when I say that, I'm not calling you immoral or amoral or anything sensational like that. I'm not even talking about you -- I'm talking about where your beliefs lead for others [frequent sticking point between us].)

I think Kant had something to say about that. But no sense getting pretentious on a whoreboard. (Self-referential joke.)

Obviously, people as a group do a lot of good things as well as a lot of bad things. My statement of pessimism was directed mainly at hvb's apparent hope of human perfectibility.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
My statement of pessimism was directed mainly at hvb's apparent hope of human perfectibility.

not perfectibilty, possibility. you are a humanist without faith in humanity? that's certainly a mismeasure of man.

[justlooking]

Possibility, OK. As long as you're prepared to be disappointed.

(We must be talking past each other. Right?)

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justlooking
Possibility, OK. As long as you're prepared to be disappointed.

(We must be talking past each other. Right?)

i'm rarely disappointed. the last time i was disappointed was when i got what i thought i wanted wrt to class/culture change.

i don't know what talking past each other means. i do know, you have a tendency to avoid the really hard questions.

[justlooking]

It means, I'm genuinely not sure what you're saying at this point.

(But let me say this: if you think commercial sex necessarily and unavoidably involves objectification and commodification of people in a way you find objectionable (as I do), and you don't intend to participate in it (on that we would differ), I think this is a strange board for you to be posting on.)

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justlooking
Of course I haven't read it. I'm sure I couldn't dismiss it out of hand if I had.

Btw, it does not advocate or even state my own approach to moral issues; it just presents a stark, and to some compelling, moral metaphor that I find interesting and provocative.

-Ww

[justlooking]

Also, if you think I avoid the question, is it possible to be a john and still be a good person, I've been obsessing over it on the internet since 1998.

FWIW, I tend to think the answer is no.

Of course -- and here's where I think you have problems with me -- I'm also still having trouble with the question, is it possible to be a good person? Although there, I think the answer might well be yes (at least within limits).

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justlooking

1 - Dreams don't have consequences. Actions taken in life do.

2 - The problem I have with your approach is that it leads to complacency. I know you hashed this all out with justme, and I really don't want to have a lengthy discussion of this on a whoreboard, but I'm at a loss to understand how someone like you decides what the right thing to do is. (And I'm sure you understand that when I say that, I'm not calling you immoral or amoral or anything sensational like that. I'm not even talking about you -- I'm talking about where your beliefs lead for others [frequent sticking point between us].)

1 - Not if life is a dream, they don't! (joking, well half-joking)

2 - OK, far be it from me to push a lengthy and redundant discussion on anyone in a PMB! In any case, I do not have much to say about it. I do decide what I think the right thing to do is in various situations, and it definitely does not always agree with what I want to do in a purely selfish sense. A short hand summary would be that I look to my instinct/conscience/gestalt and pay little attention to any system of rules or lists of principles or attempts at consistency... As far as I can see I end up behaving about as well as most other people (even if judged by their sets of rules and principles and so forth), and I sleep well at night, have no trouble looking in the mirror, etc. Actually, I think that a lot of people operate that way, just not so many intellectuals.

-Ww

[justlooking]

That's the problem with non-intellectuals. They haven't read Kant.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justlooking
That's the problem with non-intellectuals. They haven't read Kant.

Often they have tried, but can't.

-Ww

[Waist Product]

Kant was wrong// He can take that categorcal imperative and stuff it up his A S S

Hobbes is the M A N / G O H OBBES GO H O BBES

[justlooking]

And they said you can't have discussions like this on a whoreboard.

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by justlooking
I'm also still having trouble with the question, is it possible to be a good person?

Being a "good person" is a lot like "GFE". Everyone knows it's good, so everyone wants it, even though it can't be defined. Then folks try to make a definition which fits an existing set of facts (as opposed to the other way around) so that they can then get this label which they want.

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by slinkybender
Being a "good person" is a lot like "GFE".

So you have to DFK and BBBJ to be a "good person"?

[Slinky Bender]

parellels:

A lot of guys would say you have to DFK and BBBJ to be a GFE.

Therefore, a lot of guys also say that anyone who DFK's and BBBJ's is a GFE.

A lot of people say that to be a good person you have to donate generously to charities.

Therefore, a lot of poeple think that if they donate generously to charities it makes them a good person.

[JackT]

Originally posted by slinkybender
Therefore, a lot of poeple think that if they donate generously to charities it makes them a good person.
And, you would agree that WHILE they are donating generously to charities they ARE good people, right?

[Geezy Muldoon]

Originally posted by justlooking
Also, if you think I avoid the question, is it possible to be a john and still be a good person, I've been obsessing over it on the internet since 1998.

FWIW, I tend to think the answer is no.

Of course -- and here's where I think you have problems with me -- I'm also still having trouble with the question, is it possible to be a good person? Although there, I think the answer might well be yes (at least within limits).

Voice of jl's Subconscious ("Bad jl. Bad fat jl. Bad fat coulda got laid all the time when he was younger and not fat and probably not so bad looking but didn't jl. Bad funny sensitive smart jl. Bad funny sensitive smart cheating on his wife and hurting her feelings if she knew jl. Bad funny senstive smart doesn't really know why he ignores the Categorical Imperative but is compelled to do so jl. Bad funny senstive smart engaged in endless pil-pul between his penis and better instincts jl. Bad funny senstive smart better learn to start laughing at himself a lot more jl.")

[justlooking]

Hey, this time you got it exactly right.

[justme]

Originally posted by justlooking
Also, if you think I avoid the question, is it possible to be a john and still be a good person, I've been obsessing over it on the internet since 1998.

FWIW, I tend to think the answer is no.

Of course -- and here's where I think you have problems with me -- I'm also still having trouble with the question, is it possible to be a good person? Although there, I think the answer might well be yes (at least within limits).

I've known enough good people to know the answer to the seciond question.

After (about) the same amount of time thinking about question one, I think the answer may be yes, but that it's difficult.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by justme
I've known enough good people to know the answer to the second question.

After (about) the same amount of time thinking about question one, I think the answer may be yes, but that it's difficult.

i agree with him. (don't start!)

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justlooking
is it possible to be a good person?

Is it possible to be a bad person?

I surely don't know the answer to either, but my strong instinct is that both questions have exactly the same answer.

-Ww

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Judge Crater
Voice of jl's Subconscious ("Bad jl. Bad fat jl. Bad fat coulda got laid all the time when he was younger and not fat and probably not so bad looking but didn't jl. Bad funny sensitive smart jl. Bad funny sensitive smart cheating on his wife and hurting her feelings if she knew jl. Bad funny senstive smart doesn't really know why he ignores the Categorical Imperative but is compelled to do so jl. Bad funny senstive smart engaged in endless pil-pul between his penis and better instincts jl. Bad funny senstive smart better learn to start laughing at himself a lot more jl.")

really jl, can't you just change?

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Is it possible to be a bad person?

I surely don't know the answer to either, but my strong instinct is that both questions have exactly the same answer.

-Ww

but, it surely seems easier to be the latter than the former (if either is attainable*).

*i think they are.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justlooking
I don't think "life is but a dream".

Even if you don't like the last (and metaphysical) line, the first three are still excellent practical advice. "Row", "gently" and "merrily" are the key words!

-Ww

[h. von bingen]

(and what appears to be a successful one at that)

row gently & merrily?

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
really jl, can't you just change?

Of course he can change; isn't the harder question whether he (or any of us) can really want to change?

-Ww

[justlooking]

BINNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Slinky Bender]

How many therapists does it take to change a lightbulb?

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Of course he can change; isn't the harder question whether he (or any of us) can really want to change?

-Ww

well, that's the hard question i was referring to (above): why doesn't he want to change?

BINNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!

i must admit an unfair advantage in this area. i have been blessed with the ability to change once i can i identify the behaviour that requires changing. in this way, i am probably more rational than even jl.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
but, it surely seems easier to be the latter than the former

Yeah, well maybe it is a broken symmetry (a physics joke/metaphor).

I guess I would say that it is easy to follow one's own nature and difficult (maybe impossible) to depart from it. However, if one is merely following one's own nature, are the moral labels (of "good" and "bad") even relevant? But this is maybe no more than sophomoric word play and smoke + mirrors. Like I said, I don't know the answer; I just think it will apply symmetrically.

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by h. von bingen
(and what appears to be a successful one at that)

row gently & merrily?

Yes.

-Ww

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
However, if one is merely following one's own nature, are the moral labels (of "good" and "bad") even relevant?

It's when you say things like that the differences in our viewpoints become patent.

[h. von bingen]

Originally posted by Wwanderer
Yes.

-Ww

i guess the playful sarcasm didn't come through on that one.