Candy Cotton @ Flashdancers....

[Duckman]

I have mostly been a lurker on this board, so if you don't recognize my handle.....

Had the opportunity to go by Flashdancers today and see Candy Cotton. This was her first day and I thought it a little comical to see this porn star in the midst of the other house dancers – and no one knew who she was.

I let her know that “I post” and after her time on stage, she came by and we chatted for awhile. Very sweet and bright young lady. I enjoyed a couple of lap dances – she bemoaned that she had to be on her best behavior, but they were enjoyable nonetheless.

-Duck.

[mpaul]

Why is she dancing at the Flash? Is she out of the movie biz and just not making it on the escort scene? Are her prices to high??? Plus I thought she was moving back to Washington. Maybe she decided to stick around.

[Bill Furniture]

Maybe if she offered a reasonable rate, like $400, people would see her.

(I was being nice when I quoted $400, but since she's a porn star, she should charge that.)

[Casper]

Why would anyone go to FlashDancers ?? High end Gentleman's Clubs are for people that don't know any better.

[New York Tens]

Just to fill you in:

A couple months ago she was hired at scores, but when the day came for her to dance there she got rejected...so mean...

[jasonbuju]

just yesterday i saw a post by her on the TER board saying that she is dancing at Flashdancers.

[Duckman]

Originally posted by mpaul
Why is she dancing at the Flash?

I don't know all the details about why she is dancing, but she said she wanted to. And, yes, I think she will be moving back to Washington state.

-Duck.

[Duckman]

Originally posted by New York Tens
Just to fill you in:

A couple months ago she was hired at scores, but when the day came for her to dance there she got rejected...so mean...

yeah, she didn't have very nice comments for Scores.

-Duck.

[Duckman]

Originally posted by Casper
Why would anyone go to FlashDancers ?? High end Gentleman's Clubs are for people that don't know any better.

OK. So I don't know any better. Whatever.

-Duck.

[Duckman]

Originally posted by Bill Furniture
Maybe if she offered a reasonable rate, like $400, people would see her.

For my budget, she is very expensive, and no, I won't pay the amount of money she charges. But, separate from my willingness to pay her fare, if she is getting people to pay that, then that is her worth.

-Duck.

[John Blackthorne]

Socially only.

She is a very bright and engaging lady. Down to earth and unpretentious. Never had a session with her but I will say she is a pretty cool chick.

Hard to see her making it big as a dancer, tho. The ladies who do have a very hard edge which she completely lacks.

JB

[elliot16]

Originally posted by John Blackthorne

Hard to see her making it big as a dancer, tho.
JB

Actually, as I understand it she used to dance in Seattle as well as escort before she came to NYC.

[John Blackthorne]

Dancers who make the big $$ are ruthless. Their job is to extract every dime, then move on.

Classic example, that girl Summer at Delilah's who got $500k out or Craig Worthington and he had to kill his wife for the insurance $$ to give her more. (she got about ...er..$20 from me)

Not all dancers can do that, and I don't see it in Candy. I could be wrong tho..have been many times.

Seattle has a lot of Deja Vu clubs, most all the girls at those do ok.

JB

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by John Blackthorne
Dancers who make the big $$ are ruthless. Their job is to extract every dime, then move on.

I think JB makes an interesting and correct point; the attitude towards customers and approach to service that maximizes profit are, in many respects, the opposite of each other for strippers and providers. There are surely exceptions, but I think it is a rare sex worker who is really good at both occupations.

-Ww

[justlooking]

I can see how that has some theoretical validity. But I think that in practice it doesn't work out that way. At least not -- how funny for me to be saying this to Wwanderer -- universally.

[John Blackthorne]

Nothing really is.

But I have always found escorts to be more accomodating to each other and less possessive than dancers. The whole dancer approach is to nibble away, keep hinting at more ("we can have more fun in the VIP room...") while delivering as little as possible.

The escort really WANTS your business again, will do what she has to do to get it. In addition they cooperate with each other with referrals and warnings. Dancers are highly competitive.

Just my experience, but then my experience goes against most of the theories espoused on this board, so is maybe the exception rather than the rule.

JB

[Wwanderer]

No, surely not universal...as I said in my post.

Ditto JB's explanation of the basis for their different attitudes/approaches.

JB, be careful about having experiences that don't confirm theory; it is considered evidence of being delusional in some quarters! ;-)

-Ww

[mpaul]

Originally posted by John Blackthorne


Hard to see her making it big as a dancer, tho. The ladies who do have a very hard edge which she completely lacks.

JB


I don't see why it would be so hard to make it big as a dancer. The dancers at flashdancers have to make at least 1 k a night, and they are not taking the risks associated with escorting (LE, chance of physical or mental abuse etc..)

You ever go into the flash during the week? The place is packed with business men and tourists that are almost fighting over the high quality girls. Plus if the girl is willing to travel, for example to Myrtle Beach during prime golf season they can make even more.

[John Blackthorne]

Any beautiful girl can make a lot of money taking off her clothes.

But in my model above I describe the behavior of the really TOP earners.

There are exceptions, ladies whose combination of beauty and innocence, for example, make men want to throw money at them without effort on their part. I have met these, too.

But I have been worked by dancers in a far mor eaggressive and ultimately "harder" fashion that I ever have by any escort, save one agency gal a long long time ago.

I simply stated that my brief relationship with Candy (some conversation and a couple of *****s) does not reveal to me the edge needed to be a TOP dancer.

JB

[wired1]

OK, off topic, but I had a dance from a woman at flash that I think used to be a man! The other day, there was this Brazilian dancer, great body, a few tatoos..got a dance,and her voice is REALLY deep! Also noticed her hands kind of big too...felt like running away, but managed to stick out the dance..she/he says is from Rio...anyone know who I mean? It was during the daytime.

[Danielle]

This topic has inspired me to ask you all a question that's been bothering me since I started dancing four years ago. Why does it seem that so many of the dancers with nasty attitudes make so much money in the bussiness? Sometimes i feel as though the nice girl finishes last when it comes to the money. I'm not stupid, I mean I understand that if a stripper is attractive she'll probably make a decent living no matter how evil she is. But it seems logical to me that you guys would rather spend your money on an attractive woman whose also sweet and down to earth rather than someone who may be a little bit hotter (or maybe not even) and treats you like crap. ie, no eye contact, no common curteousy, not even an attempt at conversation, etc. It would be silly to say that I am more deserving of making money than another girl, because I don't know crap about their lives or what they've been through, but I do feel at times that I work harder to make money by going the extra mile to make the customer feel appreciated. And when I see these emotionless, mean-spirited vultures having money practically thrown at them while I'm still worrying about paying my house fee for the night, I feel like my extra mile has gone completely unnapreciated.

[Danielle]

According to all of you, it seems I would make a much better prosititute than dancer.

[icedog22]

Hey Danielle not all guys are into the aggressive girls.. I know I enjoy spending some time talking to a beautiful girl (;P) as well as letting her dance for me. Maybe a beautiful girl who is down to earth intimidates some guys?

[UPPEREASTSIDE]

Originally posted by Danielle
According to all of you, it seems I would make a much better prosititute than dancer.

So,,, how much?? ;)

[justlooking]

Here's the thing, Danielle. Say you're the kind of stripper who's nice and genuinely friendly, doesn't try to fleece customers, etc. You sit and chat with them at some length, because you want to sell them on how nice you are rather than fool them into thinking you're going to provide them sexual services that in fact you won't, because you think it shows the customers respect, and because (at least sometimes) you actually enjoy it. Thing is, unless a lot of other customers are a lot different from me, you're not getting paid for the conversational time. It'll lead up to selling a dance (I can't imagine anyone is going to talk to you at length and then not buy a dance from you) -- but then the conversation drops out of the picture, because it's really the first dance that sells more dances. In any event, the higher the proportion of the time you spend chatting is to the time you spend dancing, the less you'll earn. (I'm assuming your cut of the drinks sold to your customers while you're with them is insignifcant.) (There's also the possibility that a lot of chat will get the customer into the VIP Room. But I think you've got to sort of lead the conversation that way if you want to be sure it'll work. Also, if you're a genuinely nice person who cares about and respects her customers, you'll probably feel bad about scamming them into the VIP Room if you're not willing to give substantial mileage there.)

Now, say you're more mercenary. If you're smart, you'll know enough to be friendly to customers, both because that sells dances/VIP and because that creates regulars. But you'll look at the friendliness (i.e., the chat) not as an end in itself but as a means to sell dances/VIP, since dances/VIP (not chat) are what you actually get paid for. So you won't do any more chatting than you need to in order to sell a dance, cutting to the request for a dance pretty early in the conversation rather than hanging out at length. (And then you'll depend on your dances to sell follow-up dances.) (And you'll scam as many guys into the VIP Room as you can.) Because you're not caring about making friends; you're caring about making money.

In other words, the dancers who make the most money, I think, are the ones who view all customer interactions essentially as sales presentations and nothing more, and act accordingly. But you have to be pretty cold to act like that. And it's gonna be less fun. Because it means you're always working when you're at work, instead of having a good time.

[justlooking]

I'd also like to say something about this "you'd be a better prostitute than stripper" thing.

Prostitutes get paid by the hour. You can see from this board that there's a big market for prostitutes who will not just fuck you but will hang out, chat, be friendly, etc. as well. Guys buy extended "dates" from these women. And, since they're paid by the hour, the prostitutes get paid for all that hanging out and being friendly and getting to know their customers personally. Unlike with strippers, it isn't ancillary to what they get paid for, or a come-on for what they get paid for; it's part of what they get paid for. In other words, all the things you say you like about your job as a stripper, but that you essentially do for free, they get paid to do.

[justlooking]

OK, one more thing.

I called that long presumptuous post up there "shooting myself in the foot" because I hate the mercenary approach that post seems to advocate and, for my own selfish reasons, I want strippers to act the way Danielle says she does. Certainly, the ones I spend my time and money on do. But I feel conflicted about it, because if I were advising a stripper on how to maximize her earnings, I'd advise her to stop acting the way I like and start acting the way I don't like. I guess I'd add, "except with me."

[jasonbuju]

DITTO
DITTO
DITTO

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by Danielle
According to all of you, it seems I would make a much better prosititute than dancer.

It is perfectly possible that that is true, at least in the sense that you might make more money relative to "the competition" as a provider than as a dancer. JB and jl have described many of the reasons above. Their poiints, respectively, in summary are

1 - Dancers basically make money by sexually exciting men; providers make money by sexually satisfying them. (Note that by "sexually", I do not just mean physically; there is an important psychological aspect to sexual excitement and satisfaction too, of course.) Dancers are basically advertising specialists and providers are production specialists, so to speak. The optimum attitudes towards men and ways of manipulating them are diffierent in the two cases, and I think some women are just more inclined by nature towards one approach than the other. To be sure, you can make money in either profession with either approach, but the style that makes the most money is different in the two cases. I think this is JB's basic point.

2 - Dancers are paid by the dance, while providers are paid by the hour, as jl says. A hot looking dancer with an unpleasant attitude almost benefits by it. Guys don't enjoy spending time with her; they just go ahead and buy however many dances they want or can afford, enjoy the contact with her body and then are happy enough to let her move on to another customer. This really maximizes the
number of dances she can sell. By contrast, a dancer who is really charming and pleasant company may find that customers try to keep her at their table as long as possible by spreading out the dances they buy as much as possible, with long chats in between dances and promises of wanting more dances "in a little while", etc. Obviously this minimizes the number of dances she can sell in an evening or whatever. For providers, it is just the opposite; if they are such good company that guys want to buy extra hours of their company to go with "the service", they make much more money per appointment.

The only thing I would add is that I think these "natural trends" are reinforced by the expectations, which become self-fulfilling, that guys develop from experience with dancers and providers. In other words, when I get a private/lap dance at a strip club, I more-or-less expect to be hussled and treated in an impersonal way, "like just any other car at the car wash" as a friend of mine once memorably described it. But when I see a provider, especially an upscale indie type, I expect focused, personalized treatment...and a GFE attitude, ideally. (And I am not talking about Dreamboy or any of that stuff here.) As a result, I readily tolerate attitudes from dancers that I would not find acceptable from a provider (in terms of getting further business from me, I mean).

-Ww

[occasionalhobbyist]

Originally posted by Danielle
According to all of you, it seems I would make a much better prosititute than dancer.

You might, rabbit. You might.

But being a prostitute requires, in my view, an exceptionally well-balanced sense of identity and self-worth. As a dancer, you get to pick whom you're going to dance for. You get to say yes or no. You get to walk away, at least to some extent. You get to set your own pace.

As a prostitute, unless you are able to be extremely in control of your emotions and actions, you will find it difficult to do so. At least in many cases. Prostitutes post pictures of themselves on the Internet. Johns generally don't.

Both dancers and prostitutes must be good performers. In my experience -- and we talk WAY too much about this on this board, but it is relevant here -- prostitutes are required to play their 'roles' much more deeply.

Bottom line: there's a difference. And not all johns are nice guys. And it takes a while for a prostitute to develop the systems required to make sure only nice guys get through.

Best of luck. I'm sure lots of guys on the board would be happy to give you lessons. (And I don't necessarily exempt myself from that lot.)

[justlooking]

Hey I don't think we should go assuming that Danielle meant that statement to be anything more than rhetoric.

[justlooking]

One last thing.

Picking up on something Wwanderer said. Lots of (most) guys don't go to strip clubs for anything approaching personal interactions. If they can get a reasonably high-mileage dance from a reasonably hot stripper, they don't care about how nice she is or isn't. Reread the threads on GGR and Infinity. You think the guys posting there care much about the quality of the conversation?

[Wwanderer]

As anyone who frequents strip clubs & utilizes providers knows, you can easily spend just as much getting excited/frustrated by the former as being "fully" satisfied by the latter. One might then think that guys wouldn't ever bother with dancers when providers are also available to them. But that is definitely not the case. Many guys, very much including me, often choose to spend limited funds on dancers. Sometimes, especially in the past when my funds were more limited than they are now, I have explicitly decided to pass up a session with a hot provider in able to afford an evening of fairly unconstrained spending in some lap dance club. Why do you/we suppose that is?

-Ww

[justlooking]

My answer (which I'm not saying is going to be anybody else's answer) is, because lots of strippers don't act the way the mercenary ones do, but rather act the way Danielle does. And many of them are nice, smart, charming, interesting, etc., and I tremendously enjoy spending time with them (even though I have to listen to too many complaints about how they're not making enough money).

This may seem to contradict some points I made above, but as a general matter, I find it easier, on a night-by-night basis, to get satisfying interpersonal interaction-type experiences from strippers than prostitutes. But, to repeat, that's because the strippers I know and like (and patronize) are the ones who take the less mercenary approach.

A big part of the reason I find it easier to get such experiences at strip clubs is that strip clubs are convenient. If you haven't done any advance planning, you're not going to be able to see one of the "upscale indie types" you refer to in your post above at the spur of the moment when you find yourself wanting some refreshment after a late night at work. So your options are: agency -- expensive if it's any good; brothel -- chances of satisfying interpersonal interaction low; strip club. Not surprising that you might choose the strip club.

[justlooking]

Also, let's not be misleading. The kind of prostitutes we're talking about when we tell Danielle that her approach might make more economic sense for a prostitute than a stripper are a small minority of the entirety of prostitutes. I'll bet that there's a higher percentage of strippers who approach things the way Danielle does than there are of prostitutes who do.

[Wwanderer]

It would be interesting to know something more definite about provider demographics. What are the absolute or relative number who work as indies, for agencies, on the street, in (A)MPs, in more-or-less traditional brothels and so forth? How much do they overlap (i.e., how many work in two or more such modes) and between which categories? How does the pattern vary from place to place around the country and the world? Etc.

I could make some guesses, I suppose, but basically I don't have any idea. Has anyone ever seen in meaningful numbers of this sort?

-Ww

PS - It occurs to me that I have buried these questions in a pretty unlikely place, due to thread drift...oh well.

[justlooking]

While we're drifting around, let me make one additional sort-of-related point. (OH sort of said this in his post, but the thrust was different.)

We might argue that it makes more economic sense for a prostitute than a stripper to offer all this interpersonal stuff. But you can't ignore that it's also (at least as it seems to this admitted non-prostitute) psychologically harder, and probably more damaging, for a prostitute to do so than for a stripper. I always thought the reason there seem to be so many more strippers than prostitutes who allow customers to get "close" to them is that the strippers (on the whole) are not automatically permitting ultimate acts of physical intimacy as well. So the personal intimacy costs them less. To do both, I'd imagine -- and not just selectively but with all or at least many of the people you deal with professionally -- would be very hard. (Not, Wwanderer should note, impossible.)

I don't think the strippers I hang with are really doing that much role-playing. I mean, they pretend to tolerate me more than they ordinarily might (and sometimes they even pretend to find me attractive, or at least non-repulsive), but they're not creating this whole false persona, or putting up strict limits of how much of their "real" self they'll reveal, the way even most "GFE" prostitutes do. And again, I'd argue, the reason they can do this is that instant ultimate physical intimacy is not part of their job description.

[greyfox]

Wwanderer-The stripclub experience isn't that frustrating for everybody.Depending on the venue and the customer's threshold for ejaculation, satisfaction can be achieved.There are places where girls candidly offer BJs,and places where many girls expect to give a LDTC and some customers expect to get off more than once.The bathroom at GGR is littered with condom wrappers,the girl throws a towel on your lap before her "dance",and posters on their SCL board inquire who provides a "happy ending".If you don't want "extras " inside of a club or can't reach TC with your LD,there are still reasons to go.jl mentions convenience and availability of some personal interaction with a good looking woman on the spur of the moment without an appointment.A tasting menu of a variety of women and participating in a festive carnival atmosphere, are two other reasons why it can be fun.You can also take a chance on something new and walk right out the door if it sucks without having spent a few hundred dollars.

Danielle-I have no idea where you work.But I have seen clubs where the vultures don't make the most money(although as jl explained it is probably the best general strategy).Depending on customer volume,spending level, mix of locals vs. tourists,regulars vs. one timers,and club atmosphere(hustle level) your style may be more appropriate and productive in terms of earnings at a different type of place.The vultures can be successful as itinerants.Some girls do better cultivating regulars at one place by being nice.But I'm sure you know all of this.

I have also had sex outside of a club with vulture dancers who in that context were not clock watchers and provided great service and personal interaction.Their behavior was flexible and varied with the circumstances of the interaction.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by justlooking
I always thought the reason there seem to be so many more strippers than prostitutes who allow customers to get "close" to them is that the strippers (on the whole) are not automatically permitting ultimate acts of physical intimacy as well. So the personal intimacy costs them less. To do both, I'd imagine -- and not just selectively but with all or at least many of the people you deal with professionally -- would be very hard. ... And again, I'd argue, the reason they can do this is that instant ultimate physical intimacy is not part of their job description.

That makes a good deal of psychological sense to me, jl, and must be true to a large degree imo. However, I must mention that one woman I saw a few times as a provider who also had lots of experience as a stripper, once told me that she found prostitution much less stressful and psychologically difficult than stripping. We talked about it for a while. Her point, as best I understood it, was that prostitutes do the same things with men that most other women do; they just do it for money and with strangers not of their own choosing etc. But the basic activity is only "doing what comes naturally" (which is how she described it as best I remember). However, she said that only strippers go up on stage and take their clothes off while dancing provocatively in front of big crowds of men/strangers; that activity is one which other women never experience (except maybe while drunk at Spring Weekend parties in Florida). She claimed that it took her much longer to become comfortable with going on stage and stripping than it did with having sessions with johns, and that even after years of doing both, the dancing made her more nervous because it just felt so totally unnatural.

I suspect that she is just unusual, but I thought her outlook did make some sense.

-Ww

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by greyfox
The stripclub experience isn't that frustrating for everybody.Depending on the venue and the customer's threshold for ejaculation, satisfaction can be achieved.There are places where girls candidly offer BJs,and places where many girls expect to give a LDTC and some customers expect to get off more than once.

I am familiar with such places, but in my opinion the fine ladies who work at them are not just dancers; they are dancers and prostitutes. And the places are both strip clubs and brothels. That is if a subtantial fraction of the customers routinely receive "completion", by whatever technique. Maybe just semantics, but whether or not the guy can normally expect an orgasm from his encounter with the woman is what makes it prostitution.

-Ww

[Danielle]

First of all, thanks to everyone for their candid and enlightening comments to my post. Someone mentioned before that they didn't know what club I worked at, and though I'm not going to say, I will say that I did once work at the Paradise Club. And there is definetely some truth to what they said about how the work environment will dictate to some extent how successful the "nice girl" approach can be. When I worked at Paradise, I found that this style of working (which is also my natural personality, so it comes very easily to me) was much more effective at earning me money than it is at either of the other New York mainstream clubs that I've worked at since then. I find this to be somewhat ironic in that I've read many comments here and on other sites about how the girls at Paradise are the most aggressive and rude women in the bussiness.

[Danielle]

JL suggested earlier that I try a more mercenary approach (except for with the likes of him, of course.). I think that he may have misunderstood me when I was explaining how I work. With the exception of a few customers who I have known for a long time and who I consider friends that I genueinely enjoy hanging out with, I don't ever waste vast amounts of time chatting someone up unless I know from previous experience that they are going to be spending a decent sum of money on me. What I meant when I said I was nice, friendly, and good-natured, is simply that. I usually make about a song's worth of small talk with someone to assess their interest level and warm them up before making a dance sales pitch. Unless it's very busy, in which case a direct "would you care for a dance" is usually sufficient. I guess I just meant that I'm not all abrupt and bussiness-like, and that I just don't understand how the girls who are do so well compared to me. The general consensus with you guys seems to be that you expect to be treated like crap at a strip club, so it doesn't bother you and you'd just as well spend your $ on the hottest girl in the place. I must say I'm very dissapointed. Perhaps as an experiment I'll conduct myself as a complete bitch tommarow night and report my findings back to all of you soon.

[justlooking]

I think the reason a stripper like Danielle would do better at the Paradise Club than a more normal club is precisely because what's on offer at the Paradise Club is more like prostitution than dancing. And when I say that, I don't mean to imply there's guaranteed sex in the Champagne Room. What I do mean to imply is that the way the club is set up, the product sold is compensated companionship more than dances. A lot of guys don't like the club because to really enjoy what they sell you have to spend a lot money of money, and you can get a lot more (guaranteed) mileage elsewhere (i.e., from out-and-out prostitutes) for similar amounts. All of which is why I'm probably the only person in New York willing to say out loud that it's one of his favorite clubs.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Danielle
JL suggested earlier that I try a more mercenary approach (except for with the likes of him, of course.). I think that he may have misunderstood me when I was explaining how I work. . . .

OK, here's a second attempt at an answer.

ALL MOST GUYS CARE ABOUT AT A STRIP CLUB IS MILEAGE.

They don't want to "like" the strippers. They don't care about "nice".

A bitch can make a lot of money if she's really hot looking (meaning the kind of looks most guys who go to strip clubs go for: cheap sexy looking, not nice girl-next-door; when you think about it, those kind of looks promise high mileage, even if the promise is often broken) and/or if she makes it clear to prospective customers she'll give a lot of contact during a dance. (As for follow-up dances, as I said above, what sells the second dance is the first dance, so there's got to be at least a suggestion of high contact to get most guys to keep going.)

The irony in all this, as you noted, is that the Paradise Club, widely disparaged as a clip joint, actually offers a more level playing field than more normal clubs for strippers who come across as real (albeit highly attractive) women rather than sex toys.

[Slinky Bender]

I think you also have to remember "who you are talking to". I'm sure there are plenty of guys who go to strip clubs just to watch, talk, perhaps have a few dances, and go home. But here, on UG (as well as most other internet boards on the subject), you are almost definitely talking to the highest percentiles of "hard core" guys who want mileage, mileage, mileage.

Given the choice between:

a) A nice girl who will spend a bunch of time with you talking and having a few drinks, and then eventually suggest a dance, and then eventully suggest "a bottle"/VIP room, but then in the VIP room have just "a good dance",

or

b) A hot looking girl who is a bit of a bitch and after a minute or two of talk insists on the VIP room, but once in there gives a BBBJTCNQNS*,

I think the vast, vast majority of guys here will choose "b". But that doesn't mean it's every customer at these places, just "us". Remember, most of America actually believes Chris Rock.

* sorry for the terminology, but there's a glossary (http://utopiaguide.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1593)

[jasonbuju]

Gee,

I hope Danielle comes back after reading the glossary.

[justlooking]

While you're absolutely right about the bias of guys who post on boards, and you're right that Danielle ought to take that into account in considering the advice she gets here, your obviously correct point doesn't explain why the bitches would actually do better than Danielle in the real world.

[Slinky Bender]

You mean it's not clear that I'm stating that bitchiness is subordinate to mileage?

[justlooking]

I'm saying that the fact that the bitches are outearning Danielle from the customer base at large suggests that the board bias you identify might be general.

[Casper]

Originally posted by slinkybender
I think you also have to remember "who you are talking to". I'm sure there are plenty of guys who go to strip clubs just to watch, talk, perhaps have a few dances, and go home. But here, on UG (as well as most other internet boards on the subject), you are almost definitely talking to the highest percentiles of "hard core" guys who want mileage, mileage, mileage.

Mileage Mileage Mileage. Once again very astute observation.
But I wouldn't really call myself hard core. I must be getting old.

[Slinky Bender]

jl,

Not necessarily, and I think there's a better explanation, which is akin to why Willie Sutton robbed banks. The "real money" is to be made either with sex, or with the false promise of sex. While there are plenty of guys who are in fact not there for sex, you can't make the real money off of them. It's an 80/20 thing.

[justlooking]

THAT I AGREE WITH 100%.

[Wwanderer]

I wonder what fraction of regular strip club patrons are also regular hobbyists and vice versa.

An unrelated tangent is that Japanese nightlife really has an incredibly elaborated degree of market specialization in little niches of satisfying male urges/needs. Whatever it is you are looking for, you can probably find a place that specializes in offerring it, and nothing else...anything from just flirting and talking through all sorts of fantasies to the most extreme activities and fetishes. It is really something to see (though, to be sure, they mostly won't let you in if you don't speak Japanese, and maybe not even if you do if you're not ethnically Japanes). Out here in the wilderness we have to make do with just a few different types of commercial establishments and try to get as close to what we want/need as possible within the venue of a strip club or a brothel or whatever.

-Ww

[justlooking]

So, following up on slinkybender's point, two questions for Danielle:

1. Are you saying you're outearned by bitches in general, or by bitches who give blow jobs (or at least promise to) in the Champagne Room?

2. Can you make whatever the amount of money is that you're aiming at just by giving dances without getting taken to the Champagne Room?

[justlooking]

And a third:

3. How does the level of contact allowed in dances by the bitches who are outearning you compare to what you allow?

[Danielle]

JL -

1) I am not out-earned by bitches in general. But I am out-earned by some bitches who allow/do more than I do (which I totally understand and wasn't really why I asked my question in the first place becuase that's just logical.) and some bitches who only seem to do well because they have this innate ability to simply tell the guy to spend money on them and to then be obeyed. Why!? Sometimes I wonder if these women have studied hypnosis or something. I have one friend at work for example who treats customers like shit, but makes a ton of money. She's not very attractive and her dances suck. She actually sits on the guys lap facing away from him and applies lipstick or counts her money at the same time! But she's a hustler. And to this day I'll never understand where her power comes from.
2) I almost never go in the champagne room. It's very doable to make my quota working the floor and doing dances. I would almost rather do it that way then go into the champagne room with a customer who then tries to maul me back there and expects something extra, not as though i can entirely blame them for their expectation considering the price my club charges. But nothing is supposed to happen back there. That's just the way it is where I work. You get a more intimate dance. That's all.
3) I can say with certainty that my dances are above average "mileage" wise. But definetely not the raunchiest dance you could get there either. I find that the distribution of raunchi-ness is the same amongst the bitches as it is with the general dancer population. So I don't think it's a factor.

[Danielle]

I guess that all in all, I could do a lot better if I were less scrupulous at work, or could at least project that image to the customers. The funny thing is, I always sort of thought that my schtick was my sweet innocent charm. Oh well.

[justlooking]

I honestly think the answer, then, is that "sweet innocent charm" is a minority taste.

[justlooking]

.

[Duckman]

Originally posted by Danielle
I have one friend at work for example who treats customers like shit, but makes a ton of money. She's not very attractive and her dances suck. She actually sits on the guys lap facing away from him and applies lipstick or counts her money at the same time! But she's a hustler. And to this day I'll never understand where her power comes from.

I wonder if clients like these are the kind that would seek dominatrices?

-Duck.

[dbrw42]

Danielle, part of the reason why some bitches earn more may be simply taste(or lack thereof.) Everybody has a seen a nice, decent guy(or girl) going out with a psycho bitch from Hell and wonder WTF. Me personally, I've always liked a girl who knows the fastest way to a man's heart is straight though the rib cage.

Also, some guys may be kind of shy at actually having a real conversation with an attractive woman(or they're worried about letting slip about the Wife/kids/girlfriend/boyfriend etc at home.) So somebody who just comes up, says want a dance and away they go is all that person looks for.

I've found that lasting Middle East peace is probably easier than figuring out why some people do some seriously dumb shit.

Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
(thank you Mr. Miller)

[occasionalhobbyist]

Originally posted by justlooking
Hey I don't think we should go assuming that Danielle meant that statement to be anything more than rhetoric.

Well maybe some of us would LIKE to think it was more than rhetoric...

[occasionalhobbyist]

Originally posted by justlooking
I honestly think the answer, then, is that "sweet innocent charm" is a minority taste.

Doesn't sound to me like she's doing that bad, though. Sounds more to me like she's trying to unravel one of the great mysteries of the universe: why something of lower quality sometimes does better than a rational observer would expect. (i.e. Beta v. VHS...)

If I were you, Danielle, I'd chalk it up as unexplainable and keep doing what you're doing. Or, if you desperately need an answer: men are fools.

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by Danielle
Sometimes I wonder if these women have studied hypnosis or something.


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.... maybe this explains that bra Jocelyne was wearing at ASS-Con 8......................

[Casper]

Let's research that theory further.

[Danielle]

Originally posted by occasionalhobbyist
Doesn't sound to me like she's doing that bad, though. Sounds more to me like she's trying to unravel one of the great mysteries of the universe: why something of lower quality sometimes does better than a rational observer would expect. (i.e. Beta v. VHS...)

If I were you, Danielle, I'd chalk it up as unexplainable and keep doing what you're doing. Or, if you desperately need an answer: men are fools.

LOL, man. I guess that the world is just not fair. It's good advice, as I really don't think that I could be anyone that I'm not, even in the strip club setting. If anything, I'm a more sexed-out playful me. But alas, I cannot alter my basic kind nature. I'll just have to settle for the decent living I earn that's supported by my loyal fans and the seekers of sweet innocent charm. But damn, these other girls will still never cease to bug the hell out of me. And the men who continue to spend ridiculous amounts of money on them thereby encouraging their behavior will always remain a ******* too.

An interesting tidbit - I've been told on many occassions by customers that I'm too nice, respectable, blah blah blah to be in the bussiness to begin with, or that they feel weird having me dance for them because I'm the kind of girl they wish they'd met anywhere but there (which I always thought was a really lame excuse for just not wanting a dance.) and plenty of guys have even said that I'm a girl they could just never misbehave with because it would make them feel like a total jerk. What does this mean? I think I just suck at my job. Maybe I could start running a service where I could be paid to act as someone's classy respectable girlfriend. Ha ha. I'm sure the phone would be ringing of the hook for that one.

[justlooking]

Go to the "Off-Topic" Board here. Look at a thread called something like "Fuck Fantasy" (it's longer than that, but it includes those words). I think it'll show you what you're up against. Cuz let's face it, what a lot of/most guys look for in a stripper is a fuck fantasy.

(FWIW, I personally find the taste exhibited in that thread apalling. But apparently nobody's gonna get real rich catering to my taste.) (Although god knows I try.)

[justlooking]

Originally posted by Danielle
Maybe I could start running a service where I could be paid to act as someone's classy respectable girlfriend. Ha ha. I'm sure the phone would be ringing of the hook for that one.

Believe it or not, that's exactly what those guys meant when they suggested at the beginning of this discussion that you might do better as a prostitute than a stripper.

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by Danielle
What does this mean?

It means :"Wow, you don't seem nearly as much of a money grubbing, gold-digging, bitch from hell as these other girls in here. I'd love to take you out to dinner some night and then go to a hotel and bang the shit out of you, and since you're not a prostitute not have to compensate you".

Or did you think all the shit guys say in strip clubs is the truth?

Originally posted by Danielle
I think I just suck at my job

I can't believe you didn't say that "on purpose".

But more seriously, Danielle, exactly what do you think your job is? and in detail, please, because "making men happy" or "dancing" just won't do it.

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by justlooking
Believe it or not, that's exactly what those guys meant when they suggested at the beginning of this discussion that you might do better as a prostitute than a stripper.

Yeah, but in that sense "acting like someone's girlfriend" includes in the bedroom.

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by justlooking
Go to the "Off-Topic" Board here. Look at a thread called something like "Fuck Fantasy" (it's longer than that, but it includes those words). I think it'll show you what you're up against. Cuz let's face it, what a lot of/most guys look for in a stripper is a fuck fantasy.

(FWIW, I personally find the taste exhibited in that thread apalling. But apparently nobody's gonna get real rich catering to my taste.) (Although god knows I try.)

But looking at any mainstream discussion of that topic is misleading, because not only does it pass over the very large portion of the population who have alternative tastes (how many "books" has Harry Crumb sold?), but it also leaves out the tsates of the population hear who are affraid to voice such 'non-mainstream" proclivites in "public" for fear of being made fun of. Look at what happens when anyone tries to start a discussion on anything even slightly "alternative" here.

[justlooking]

Sure. But if I understand what Danielle's complaining about, it's that she makes a good enough living, but can't understand why she isn't one of the very top girls at her mainstream club.

That sounds to me like the definition of catering to a signficant minority taste.

[Slinky Bender]

Well, in terms of "very top girls", I think people - dancers as well as customers - are deluding themselves if they think that any particular dancer (and especially any "top dancer) isn't offereing any sort of "extras", either inside the club or outside, simply because they claim not to be. And as I said before, mileage trumps bitchiness*.

* But if we've graduated to "I don't understand why these 5'10" Blond Blue Eyed Nordic Queens with huge tits and legs up to their necks who look like Penthouse Models make more money than me because I'm sweet and I have quirky looks", let me know.

[justlooking]

Originally posted by slinkybender
But more seriously, Danielle, exactly what do you think your job is? and in detail, please, because "making men happy" or "dancing" just won't do it.

In part, I'm quoting that because I think it's so important that I wanted to make sure it didn't get buried at the bottom of the post it appeared in.

But I also wanted to say that it brought to mind a debate I've been having over the last couple of weeks with a stripper I've known for a long time who's now working at one of the new Manhattan clubs. She keeps insisting that what she gets paid for is "conversation". To support that contention, she says that if she were to give a guy a blow job in the Champagne Room but not have a good conversation with him, she'd probably never see him again -- but she gets lots of guys to keep coming back whom she's conversed with (and not fellated).

I think her premises are probably right. But I think her conclusion completely misses the point. (I'm sure I'll say why later. Now I'm just putting this in for discussion.)

[justlooking]

Originally posted by justlooking
Go to the "Off-Topic" Board here. Look at a thread called something like "Fuck Fantasy" (it's longer than that, but it includes those words). I think it'll show you what you're up against. Cuz let's face it, what a lot of/most guys look for in a stripper is a fuck fantasy.

(FWIW, I personally find the taste exhibited in that thread apalling. But apparently nobody's gonna get real rich catering to my taste.) (Although god knows I try.)

N.B.: To see what I mean, you have to start at the last page of that thread and work backwards. Because it actually started out kind of reasonable, but soon got sort of forced into what I'd call the majority tendency.

[Wwanderer]

Originally posted by slinkybender
Look at what happens when anyone tries to start a discussion on anything even slightly "alternative" here.

Yeah!

-Ww

[Danielle]

What do I think my job is, exactly? Wow, that´s a great and tough question. I suppose that it´s a lot of things, dependent upon what the situation calls for. Part fantasy girl/ part therapist/ part entertainer...... I give men the pleasure of an innocent sexual thrill with no strings attached, some cool conversation and a lighter wallet. i like to feel someone´s eyes on me, desiring me, it´s a turn on most of the time. One of my greatest thrills is hearing someone sigh and shake their head with a devilish grin after I finish a dance, as if to say ¨Damn girl, you really shook me up!¨ I think that part of my job is making each and every customer feel special, and this is accomplished differently with everyone. Despite what all of you say about what a guy wants when he visits a strip club, i´ve even found that just being a sympathetic sounding board can sometimes be quite profitable. ( sometimes.)

I wish a had a better answer to your question. I´m a little tired right now. Maybe I can compose a more insightful response tommarow.

[ExLS]

Originally posted by justlooking
Believe it or not, that's exactly what those guys meant when they suggested at the beginning of this discussion that you might do better as a prostitute than a stripper.

I disagree. I have met plenty of dancers who I wanted to date and take home to mom. but in this business, you don't date your clientle(always an exception). I have met two fo my best friends at local clubs this way. If you are looking for a buck, I am a good judge of character where I will appraoch you for outside work. If you want to get to know me, another story. I have been going to strip clubs for a while now.
Also, I know that dancers are there to make money, but if I am not in the mood, please leave me alone or don't be a bitch to me. I tend to be upfront and would like to the same. That is all. If you don't want to talk "life" with me, fine, I'll understand when you do walk away. Maybe you American dancers can teach the Russian and the young ones as well