*** Trial Set

[vegasjim]

Pasted from another board

On Tuesday, November 26th, the Honorable judge Debra Behnke denied the motion to dismiss or continue and stated trial is set for Monday.
Monday, December 2, 2002, 8:30am

Room 52A, 5th Floor, Hillsborough County Courthouse, 801 E. Twiggs, Tampa

Of the ten arrested female defendants, eight will stand trial. Lacy and Tiffany have negotiated plea bargins. (Anna and Kelly were never arrested and were listed in Exhibit A as cooperating).

[spotny]

thanks for the update. s. spotny.

[messstat]

After years of publicly berating members - mostly hobbyists...Seems *** is getting his just deserts now...Couldn't happen to a nicer guy! I hope they lock him up and make Barbie Doll earrings out the keys.

[Footlover]

*** made this hobby much more enjoyable and safer for all of us, men and women. For you to criticize him on a board that probably wouldn't be here without *** IS REALLY STUPID AND HYPOCRITICAL.

[John Blackthorne]

Originally posted by Footlover
*** made this hobby much more enjoyable and safer for all of us, men and women. For you to criticize him on a board that probably wouldn't be here without *** IS REALLY STUPID AND HYPOCRITICAL.

Footlover, I am NOT a *** hater. He has done good, he has done bad, and I hope he will be dealt with FAIRLY by the justice system, but I am afraid that may not be.

BUT!

This hobby did not begin with *** and will not end with him either. Before there was *** there was Lyla's, Decadent City, Heaven or Hell, Atlanta Escort Guide, and Escort America to name a few of the many.

So spare me the hyperbole. A board like this could easily have developed without ***.

JB

[steamman]

for the update. I wish whoever is involved from *** good luck in the proceedings. Their site has been "slow" as of late, as in crappy servers. Is this trial the reason that their board sites, for different states, are down? Just looking for info...

[vegasjim]

In my eyes weather you like *** or not should not matter. Weather we want to admit it or not what happens in the trial will affect this and all the other boards. There has already been some changes on this board and others because of OFC. I am sure the outcome of this trial will affect this hobby. I would like to wish good luck to all involved in the proceedings.

[Flounder]

True, quite a few boards have changed their policies. Some have gone under and some new ones are popping up.

[vegasjim]

Yes Bill Times are a changing. Hopefully The government will lose their battle with OFC and not to many more changes will occur. But if the Government wins you can be sure they will be after this board and the rest down the road.

[galahad]

For what it is worth this is about the most level-headed discussion I have seen on the OFC proceeding yet- of course it's small in comparison to many and most of the people with strong opinions haven't found their way here..... yet.

Win, lose, or plea bargain I doubt things will ever be as they were before June. There have been numerous changes and there will be many more here on UG and on other sites.

Steamman the answer to your question is no. The only effect that OFC has on the server issues is that some of the people that would be handling server problems are busy with other more pressing items right now. (At least this is what I have been told)

Mr. Blackthorne - like yourself I have been around for a few years as well and yes Escort America and Decadent City- the two I first used- as well as the others you site are longer in tooth then *** but I doubt that boards as we know them today would have evolved into the communities they are without the influence of ***. He may not have invented the concept but he certainly had a large hand in its evolution. At least in DC the forum he created to share information was a big change from the kill or be killed approach that Decadent City used.

As to if he is dealt with fairly he hasn't been, at least in this situation up until now, but we shall see. As of today the prosecutor will need to start making his case to a judge in the presence of a good defense attorney instead of playing to the media.

Of course the fact that I am one of I think it was called "***'s girls" or I guess the last one (name) was "henchmen" that I read you might take this post with a huge grain of salt; but really all that I am interested in at this point are the facts, proven/ verified not just stated, and what the impact will be on all of us.

[vegasjim]

Galahad. Well Said! I used escort America and the rest back in the day also.

[messstat]

Whilst those in the defense or indifference of ***'s dealings say their piece...They never REALLY understood was what the "system" had degraded to. I can tell you this...Regardless of what *** professed to represent ie: free speech, privacy, or the database to pursue a hobby...He NEVER delivered without "strings" attached. *** "micromanaged" the site to obscurity. *** failed the most important exam..."Never use your own supply..." (aka: Scarface) ***'s autocratic management offended hobbyist and provider alike. He publicly berated anyone that didn't see things his way...Then, adding insult to injury, made public the "dirty details" of the failed date, so to speak.
***'s a BUM...Read Phoenixxx's account and items often overlooked, become crystal clear. Karma check anyone?

[JackT]

So, what happened in court today?

[John Blackthorne]

Continuance.

JB

[JackT]

Originally posted by John Blackthorne
Continuance.

JB

Meaning all defendants waived their right to a "speedy trial"?

Is there a new scheduled trial date? discovery/deposition deadlines?

[spotny]

according to what is posted elsewhere if the judge grants a continuance without the defendants waiving "speedy trial" then the charges will be dropped. is this what happened yesterday? inquiring minds want to know.

[JackT]

Here's what I heard:

Judge Debra Behnke granted the defense's motion for continuance. Several defendants refused to waive their right to a speedy trial (I suspect charges remain pending against those defendants?).
14 pending motions are scheduled for hearing Monday, December 9th at 1:30pm. The trial date was re-set for Monday, December 16th at 8:30am.

There is also a reference on *** to "interesting" documents that will be in the publicly-available court file this Friday or Monday.... not sure what that means.

[spotny]

Originally posted by JackT
Here's what I heard:

Judge Debra Behnke granted the defense's motion for continuance. Several defendants refused to waive their right to a speedy trial (I suspect charges remain pending against those defendants?).
14 pending motions are scheduled for hearing Monday, December 9th at 1:30pm. The trial date was re-set for Monday, December 16th at 8:30am.

There is also a reference on *** to "interesting" documents that will be in the publicly-available court file this Friday or Monday.... not sure what that means.

thanks jack. i did just pick this up from walter cronkite on the other "first amendment" board. gets curiouser and curiouser, huh? s. spotny

[galahad]

Hearing notes:

Behnke granted the defenses' motion for continuace charged to the state.

Several defendants refused to waive their right to a speedy trial.

The fourteen pending motions are scheduled to be heard Monday, December 9th at 1:30 PM.

Trial date re-set for Monday, December 16th at 8:30 AM.

Overheard one of the female defendants stating to another, "I think Chris Brown is cute."

Bowling was present. As my beloved mother used to say (God rest her soul), if you can't say something nice about someone, don't say anything at all. So I will just say this, please focus on what the taxpayers are paying you to do, instead of gloating and harassing the defendants.

Also overheard a few things from the defense attorney's. My suggestion would be to check the file in the clerk's office Friday afternoon or Monday morning for some 'interesting' documents.


Not my words but I would guess from someone who was at the proceedings and from his/her history of post on the "other board" not a person who is pro the defense.

The only thing I would alter is the trial date is only a tenative date and the tenative part is based on the outcome of a few motions from the defense.

[Slinky Bender]

Although I have not heard of *** seeking Relief From Prejudicial Joinder in this case, is there any possbility that what is going on is that he in fact wants "his own trial", which would center around 1st Ammendment issues, rather than the clearly "prostitution issues" of some of the defendants, and as such if some defendants assert "speedy trial", while he needs more times and waives "speedy trial", that he will get his own ?

[vegasjim]

From wookworld:

Posted by wookman (12/09/02):

Monday's offering to this soap opera:

Nothing much was accomplished and the date is still set for the 16th. Two defense motions were deferred for a ruling at a later date. The SWP made a motion to extend speedy trial 30 to 60 days was denied.

You just got to know that the lawyers, at least the defense team, are paid by the hour. I bet if they just got a lump sum payment, this would have been resolved long ago!

[vegasjim]

Time of trial set for 8:30 AM on the 16th

[galahad]

"Monday's offering to this soap opera:

Nothing much was accomplished and the date is still set for the 16th. Two defense motions were deferred for a ruling at a later date. The SWP made a motion to extend speedy trial 30 to 60 days was denied."

I dunno Jim something seems a bit strange

The whole afternoon in court and nothing much was accomplished?

It seems to me that people are being very quiet and typically that has not been the case for one side in these proceedings.

[vegasjim]

Originally posted by galahad
"
I dunno Jim something seems a bit strange

The whole afternoon in court and nothing much was accomplished?

It seems to me that people are being very quiet and typically that has not been the case for one side in these proceedings.

I agree but being in NY I must rely on Wookman & Cronkite for info. Wish I was in Fla. and able to attend. Plus I am sure there is allot of dealing going on behind closed doors.

[galahad]

Jim,

You might want to go look at what Mr. Cronkite posted last night and if you are inclined cut and paste it here. It pretty much matches what I have heard through other sources.

[John Blackthorne]

That the prosecutors have this case all screwed up. They overreached and will pay for it by looking foolish.

I wonder if the Tampa press will cover the story of OFC humiliation, cause that is where this looks like its headed. Waste of time and money.

Lots of lawyers did well, though.

JB

[vegasjim]

Anna was present
Luke Lirot represents Steve Lipson, Bob Herce represents Desiree Dante, Ed Suarez represents Stacey Dahl, Scott Boardman represents Poulina.
Motion to Dismiss for Duplicity by Lirot/Herce: Basic argument was the state needs to amend the information because the charging document contains two or more offense in one count.
Behnke granted in part/denied in part: She ordered the state to give the defendants a statement of particulars to the exact crimes and exacts acts the defendants are accused.
Motion to Dismiss count 23 - Obstruction of justice: Granted.
Motion to Dismiss count 24 - Tampering with evidence: Granted.
Motion to Dismiss filed by DeLaGrana, argued by Lirot: Basic argument was the state was vague in regards to the relative time frame span. The state should be more specific than "the crime took place during this 6 week period in one of 6 counties."
Jim Schneider argued for the state: He stated that if the attorneys' actually used the tools (i.e. depositions) given by the state then they would be able to answer their own questions. (side note: A haircut may be in order).
Behnke commented: "So you are telling me that if the defense uses the tools YOU supply them, then they will know more than you do? Everyone (except prosecution) burst out laughing.
She also made the comment, that she agreed with the defense, "if you can't prove a county, then how can you even prove it happened?
Behnke then stated: "If the state has given you all of the information they have, there is nothing left to give you. Therefore, motion denied."
Motion to Dismiss on Constitutional Grounds by Lirot: Basic argument was the internet is a medium and *** is no more culpable for the actions of escorts than the phone book is with their escort ad. It was a lengthy argument by both parties.
Behnke: Reserved ruling. Apparently it should be tomorrow.
Motion for Extension of Speedy Trial by Brown: He gave a lengthy list to why he felt he was entitled to an extension. He was seeking 30 to 60 days.
Herce then gave a lengthy argument to why the state shouldn't be granted an extension. He stated the prosecution was "Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy" in their preparation of this case.
Behnke: Motion denied as you were not able to prove "exceptional circumstances".
There was much case law stated and excellent arguments by the defense. Too bad you all can't come hear for yourselve's. They did an OUTSTANDING job!

She was booked at HCSO on 11/30/02.
http://www.hcso.tampa.fl.us/
"Inquiries Online", "Arrest Inquiry" "Guinn"
(Note the date she was charged with RICO - 12/16/02. Isn't that next week?)
She also has a warrant out for her arrest in Polk County.
http://polksheriff.org/cgi-bin/warrants

[vegasjim]

After reading what really happened Monday sounds like the Defense is kicking Butt. I for one would like nothing more than to see *** and especially all the girls win this case and the law go back to chasing the real criminals. I really believe if they win it will be good for all PMB’s.

[messstat]

A dismissal of all charges because of boredom! Don't be fooled, my friends, by Benke's admonition of the prosecution..."What goes around, comes around..." should be kept in mind.
Personally, I have an axe to grind with that prick ***...Also, I think Ms. Dahl is a friggen "wack-job" and she's helped me prove this allegation a couple dozen times during her illustrious "career"...Remember her sudden retirement from the biz-because she'd "fallen in love" with one of her hobbyists and then subsequent return to the limelight by publicly lambasting the poor bastard for breaking her heart? Uh, yeah..she's kookoo, fur sure!
*** is an "ugly" person...Dark clouds sit over his wittle head on a daily basis, and rightly so.
Vegasjim, I can empathsize with your "rootin for the underdogs" Unfortunatley, in this instance, *** is gonna get what's coming to him...and I'm glad!

[John Blackthorne]

But it seems to me that the prosecution asking for more time on the eve of trial means they are not ready to proceed.

And the prosecution seems to have really screwed up the "aiding and abetting" charges by being vague about when and where the acts took place. The ladies listed in the predicates under this charge were never themselves charged, much less convicted. So how will they prove he aided and abetted when they cannot prove a crime took place?

You may have a problem with ***..many do. But that will mean nothing. I predict a walk or a slap on the wrist.

But as I said, I am just an observor, not an expert.

JB

[messstat]

Hopefully, a long walk...off a short pier! In my view, some "behind the scene" politics are always going to be a factor in cases like this...
Assume this:
*Benke, is known for flambouyant court "acting"
*RICO is a federal charge...with the assistance of fed-support, investigation
and charges stemming from the U.S. Attorneys offices. These guys don't
waste their time on frivilous charges.
*ANYTIME the Fed is involved, you can bet your sweet bippy, their twisting
arms...bending ears (Benke's) and doing everything possible (legal or not)
to bring the case to it's rightful culmination.
*I've heard some of the girls "rolled over" for the prosecution.
*One good deed-deserves another...Has everyone forgot about the IRS?
They'll soon be jumping in on the action and it won't be pretty!

Naw, knucklehead ain't walkin anywhere, unless it's in an orange jumpsuit!

[JackT]

Originally posted by messstat
*RICO is a federal charge...with the assistance of fed-support, investigation
and charges stemming from the U.S. Attorneys offices. These guys don't
waste their time on frivilous charges.

Yes, there IS a federal RICO statute, but I thought that all of these OFC defendants were being charged with Florida (non-federal) RICO. Have you heard anything about the U.S. Attorney's Office bringing a charge against *** based on FEDERAL RICO?? (or are you just speculating about "fed-support, investigation and charges"?)

[John Blackthorne]

Originally posted by messstat
Hopefully, a long walk...off a short pier! In my view, some "behind the scene" politics are always going to be a factor in cases like this...
Assume this:
*Benke, is known for flambouyant court "acting"
*RICO is a federal charge...with the assistance of fed-support, investigation
and charges stemming from the U.S. Attorneys offices. These guys don't
waste their time on frivilous charges.
*ANYTIME the Fed is involved, you can bet your sweet bippy, their twisting
arms...bending ears (Benke's) and doing everything possible (legal or not)
to bring the case to it's rightful culmination.
*I've heard some of the girls "rolled over" for the prosecution.
*One good deed-deserves another...Has everyone forgot about the IRS?
They'll soon be jumping in on the action and it won't be pretty!

Naw, knucklehead ain't walkin anywhere, unless it's in an orange jumpsuit!

It would appear from your posts you have an emotional stake in ***'s troubles. OK, maybe you have reasons.

But nothing has been mentioned about fed involvement at all. I grant the IRS would be a possibility, but that is speculation.

And the fact that the prosecution does not seem ready to proceed does not indicate a strong case.

We will all find out soon enough.

JB

[Reel Deal]

Originally posted by John Blackthorne
And the fact that the prosecution does not seem ready to proceed does not indicate a strong case. There could be numerous strategic reasons the prosecution made this motion, none of which have anything to do with the strength or preparation of the case.

I wouldn't bet the farm on speculation of that one motion.

To underestimate one's opponent is a serious strategic mistake.

[John Blackthorne]

Originally posted by Reel Deal
There could be numerous strategic reasons the prosecution made this motion, none of which have anything to do with the strength or preparation of the case.

I wouldn't bet the farm on speculation of that one motion.

To underestimate one's opponent is a serious strategic mistake.

They are not MY opponent.

The true facts are that nothing we say here will have any effect on what happens in Florida.

We will someday know the outcome.

And no matter what people think of *** or have against him, none of us have anything tangible to gain by his troubles.

JB

[Judge Advocate]

Originally posted by Reel Deal
To underestimate one's opponent is a serious strategic mistake.

IF there were any truly strategic mistakes made ........ I do not think that it is the defense whom have made them.

The truly foolhardy ones were the people that supplied miscellaneous and often false information (some did not even have any real reason to do so, not being charged themselves ..... except perhaps self-serving ones). Quite an interesting tale actually.

In time it will ALL come out .........

[Reel Deal]

Originally posted by Judge Advocate
except perhaps self-serving ones Judge, few human actions are done without being self-serving.

But you already knew that.

A good axiom to live by: "Be kind to everyone you meet; you never know whose friendship you'll need on the way down."

[Judge Advocate]

I give that a '10' for containing the requisite 'barb' in return, yet being at least marginally tactful.

Although I might add that your 'axiom' would more realistically be one for "shall we say ...... a bit of introspection"?

[Reel Deal]

Originally posted by Judge Advocate
I give that a '10' for containing the requisite 'barb' in return, yet being tactful.

Although I might add that your 'axiom' would be one for "shall we say ...... a bit of introspection"? Whatever you say, Judge. We all know of your exquisite and perfect view of truth.

I will be happy to hold up the introspection mirror; I have spent much time in the last few months doing precisely that. May I suggest that all perform similar tasks in an objective manner?

Acceptance is a much more pleasant state of being than denial, anger, and bargaining...

[Judge Advocate]

I fault no person for the paths they have taken that were the choice they deemed most appropriate for them.

I have no personal enmity toward you or towards any other person for that matter.

We all have our positions and our choices and we do not always share them equally.

My real point is that the scenario in FL is one that I felt was unjust and one that could affect all such sites. When posters harp on areas that make it seem that *** is so deserving of being castigated in such a manner I have to disagree because I do not feel that any person or 'persons' as in the *** case, whom are in this type of venue are deserving of that. I would have felt the same whether it was the *** site (and it's principles) whom were charged or had it been the Utopia site's principles or the TER owners for that matter. It would have made no difference to me and I would have said the same things in defense of those charged, regardless of whom they were.

Of the many people that were drug in and 'mis-used', I have sympathy for them too. I think the whole thing was more of a politically motivated scheme and was in all reality rather poorly prepared.

Remember, in our legal system (which I do think is a pretty good one, all things considered) ....... 'A Ham Sandwich' can be charged ..... it just doesn't mean it can be convicted. But, the process of 'charging' is still quite the bear for any person to have to deal with, both from an individual basis and from a financial aspect. In short, win lose or draw, the powers that be can wreak havoc in your life, your business and in your spirit .... regardless of whether you ultimately prevail.

[pjorourke]

Well put!

[galahad]

but it was bound to happen.

"Acceptance is a much more pleasant state of being than denial, anger, and bargaining..."

I would say that depends on what one is willing to accept-- denial is a different subject entirely.

From what I have seen most of the denial is formatted in the minds of people who do not think this case could have an effect on other sites, or who do not want to understand the difference between the law and vengeance- in particular their own because of some past aggereviance (real or imagined)

I hope you find the inner peace you are looking for RD but not at the expense of others.

[Reel Deal]

Originally posted by Judge Advocate
Remember, in our legal system (which I do think is a pretty good one, all things considered) ....... 'A Ham Sandwich' can be charged ..... it just doesn't mean it can be convicted. But, the process of 'charging' is still quite the bear for any person to have to deal with, both from an individual basis and from a financial aspect. In short, win lose or draw, the powers that be can wreak havoc in your life, your business and in your spirit .... regardless of whether you ultimately prevail. I absolutely agree.

Let us just keep the faith that justice will prevail.

[Reel Deal]

Originally posted by galahad
From what I have seen most of the denial is formatted in the minds of people who do not think this case could have an effect on other sites, or who do not want to understand the difference between the law and vengeance- in particular their own because of some past aggereviance (real or imagined)Galahad, I am far, far less concerned about the future of such sites than I am about the people and families whose lives have been forever altered by the extarordinarily wide net cast in OFC.

Sites will come and go; the many fine people on both "sides" of OFC will not.

I hope you find the inner peace you are looking for RD but not at the expense of others. Inner peace can never come at anothers' expense.

[galahad]

"Inner peace can never come at anothers' expense."

My point exactly.

"Galahad, I am far, far less concerned about the future of such sites than I am about the people and families whose lives have been forever altered by the extarordinarily wide net cast in OFC."

It is the people that have visited these sites and their lives from which I speak. The site is merely the gathering place, an innate object if you will, but it is the people/ users that ultimately will be hurt. Yet certain people not only by word but also by deed seem intent on denying the possibility that all of the “kingdoms” are at some level of risk.

Take a good look at messstats post. Do you think he is looking for justice? Or vengeance? If he gets his wish will it be better for the majority of people or worse. Do you think he has even examined the possiblity that what he wishes for could lead to more problems for more people? I doubt it.

[Reel Deal]

Originally posted by galahad
"Inner peace can never come at anothers' expense."

My point exactly.

"Galahad, I am far, far less concerned about the future of such sites than I am about the people and families whose lives have been forever altered by the extarordinarily wide net cast in OFC."

It is the people that have visited these sites and their lives from which I speak. The site is merely the gathering place, an innate object if you will, but it is the people/ users that ultimately will be hurt. Yet certain people not only by word but also by deed seem intent on denying the possibility that all of the “kingdoms” are at some level of risk.

Take a good look at messstats post. Do you think he is looking for justice? Or vengeance? If he gets his wish will it be better for the majority of people or worse. Do you think he has even examined the possiblity that what he wishes for could lead to more problems for more people? I doubt it. I can't speak for messtat; he obviously has some issues with *** and others. I don't think it's any surprise that *** has a group of detractors based on their relationship with him. Most of the non-*** sites are populated with them and their Why I Hate *** anecdotes.

But the blade cuts both ways. I recall some heated discussions by numerous golden "VIP's" and popular providers at ***.net not too long ago. Clearly Justice was in the back seat; the car was driven by Vengence and her ugly sibling, Retribution. They were the yang to messstat's ying. Neither can be proud of their words.

And Galahad, the people currently in the direct legal clutches of OFC have already been hurt many times more than a mere visitor or interested party-and it ain't even close to being over with yet. Those are the people, to me, that deserve the sympathy and empathy. They are the ones truly at risk.

[galahad]

Originally posted by Reel Deal


But the blade cuts both ways. I recall some heated discussions by numerous golden "VIP's" and popular providers at ***.net not too long ago. Clearly Justice was in the back seat; the car was driven by Vengence and her ugly sibling, Retribution. They were the yang to messstat's ying. Neither can be proud of their words.


My reply:

Reel Deal I am sure you know this but on the odd chance you do not I am a VIP on ***'s Boards. (I post here on this subject only after checking with the APM, in my mind the correct way to conduct oneself.) For some being a VIP seems to mean I am a target as well. Now I do not know which incident you are speaking to for certain, nor was I part of the conversation that you are talking about, but I can take a guess. I will say that it is a subject that would take a month to talk about or probably shouldn't be touched so I will leave it for another time since mine for the day is running out; but from what I hear the party that was running around screaming fire is the one that not only set the match but has been fanning the flames since.

If what you heard is accurate it still doesn't make it right, but one instance is a far cry from what has been heaped on the other side of the scale.

Real Deal:

And Galahad, the people currently in the direct legal clutches of OFC have already been hurt many times more than a mere visitor or interested party-and it ain't even close to being over with yet. Those are the people, to me, that deserve the sympathy and empathy. They are the ones truly at risk.

Well I cannot disagree with your position about people directly affected being the ones at risk that includes or should include all of the people. But I would also like to point out that attitudes like the one of messstat are only going to possibly broaden the area of damage and increase the amount of people in the direct line of fire.

[Jack Ryan]

Messtat

Just because SD fell in and out of love doesn't mean she's a wacko...just human. That's something that happens everyday even though every thread I've ever read cautions not to let that happen. People in this hobby are not automatons, just people with the same set of emotions as everyone else. Sometimes those get in the way.

Maybe you could provide some documation of the many other ways you have that document this theory. Personally I think its sour grapes

[messstat]

I admit, I've always had the "knack" for pissing people off...30+ years in retail sales has a way of putting a thicker skin on, much like abrading your arm with 40-grit sandpaper...letting it heal and then doing it again and again...
All of us think and act differently to a specific (or not so specific in this case) set of circumstances...I have never pretended or shadowed my feelings about *** or those of similar ilk...I know em like a book.
As far as reference to "goodwill toward men" or some such beliefs, let me say this...Karma, doesn't apply to the demise, degredation or lack of character to anyone like ***...He's a PIMP-get it? That dark cloud over his head fits like a glove and will follow him all his days.
Ms. Dahl...now there's a subject. Know her personally do you? Let's just say I do...and pretty damn good at that. Suffice to say-any provider that gets "cow eyes" if you so much as stir your hips...Is, well, KOOKOO.
I know this won't bring a culmination to the flames and personal attacks on the subject...Damn where are those prayer beads!

[Reel Deal]

Messstat, You've made your point.

Maybe its time to give it a rest. Piling on serves no useful purpose.

[messstat]

It would've suited me fine to let it rest, unfortunately someone-everyone had rebuttals to my comments...I can't let that go
But, I'm done now self-effacing

[lostinspace]

What is justice? Come Monday morning the trial begins. What if it were to get dismissed on Monday morning (improbable but not impossible)? Then everybody gets to go home free right? WRONG!! Leaving *** himself on the side line for the purposes of this discussion, let’s just consider the ladies who are involved. What about things that have already happened to them? In addition to prostitution charges, they have been publicly called either a part of an international prostitution ring, racketeer, madam or conspirator. Some have had property seized, been thrown in jail for extended periods, been paraded before TV cameras and made to spend tens of thousands of dollars on what should at best have been a misdemeanor charge under normal circumstances. I think ANYBODY who knows what is going on, KNOWS none of these ladies, not one of them, are either racketeers or conspirators.

I believe some of the posters on this thread are the same CIs who have only tried to protect themselves from a simple misdemeanor charge in a worse case legal scenario and/or public disclosure of their own solicitation activities. They did it thinking that their personal involvement would remain behind the mask of a Confidential Informant. They believed that their lies would never see the light of day because all the defendants would roll over and plea bargain. That they would never have to face those that they accused either in a deposition or on the witness stand. That the prosecution would overwhelm any defense with a preponderance of evidence and would fold rather that face jail time under the Florida RICO Act (NO FED INVOLVEMENT messstat). One of the main missions of these CIs on these boards has been to convince defendants of the futility of their cases.

Well, guess what, it looks like they were wrong. So instead of a lousy insignificant misdemeanor charge, CIs are now going to face the full light of day with their shiny little faces in front of those TV cameras in a major court battle.

Reel Deal said “Acceptance is a much more pleasant state of being than denial, anger, and bargaining”. I agree. That includes accepting the fact that, whoever those CIs are, what they have said and done will soon become public knowledge just like in the lives of the accused.

Reel Deal also said “Let us just keep the faith that justice will prevail.” Once again I also agree. I too hope and believe that justice will prevail. If the case were to be dismissed on Monday, I’m sure the CIs would all breath a collective sigh of relief, feeling that they had escaped those TV cameras. Is that the type of justice you are thinking about? Considering what these ladies have already been put through as a result of these false charges, where is the justice for them? Personally, I can’t believe it will end there because that would NOT be justice.

No indeed Reel Deal "Inner peace can never come at anothers' expense." Those who have played a part in destroying so much of the lives of others on either side of the equation should not themselves freely walk away with that inner peace. I don't just think we are talking about one person here either. I am also not speaking about a personal vendetta of one person against another. There is enough fault in this mess to be spread around quite widely, thank you very much. When the veils of official protection, legal gag orders and such are lifted at the end of the trial, there is no telling what information will be able to be placed in the public domain. So in the long run, the only thing people need to do is wait and see what is revealed. Don’t you just love the 1st Amendment!

As for messstat's often vindictive comments, opinions and insinuations about who and what he knows, quite frankly, I think he is just full of crap. I for one am willing to wait and see how it all turns out. I do believe JUSTICE will prevail no matter what form it takes.

[vegasjim]

Galahad Welcome to Silver!

[pjorourke]

Well, today is the day. Trial was to start this morning. I hope it ends well for all of the people caught up in this mess.

[pswope]

Is trial on Court TV?


I have a question for all,who have posted here and have some opinion on the matter:


Assuming justice is giving each man his due and in the context of my question "due" can go beyond strictly legal sanctions, based upon the totality of his conduct, what would constitute justice for ***?

(please vet the larger implications for PMBs etc. I'm talking more about Karma now)

[pjorourke]

I just heard from a party close to the case that the Judge continued the case, due to delays in giving discovery to the defense, past the time of speedy trial. Accordingly, all charges against the individuals will be dismissed.

Amazing!

[wilt]

The CMI (Commercial Sex Index*) just went up 33% on the rumor.



*CMI measures the cost of engaging a prostitute through the internet.

[John Blackthorne]

before DA Brown enters private practice.

Can the Tampa press obtain a copy of the expenses for this fiasco??

JB

[Hillary Clinton]

Now that *** is done with this, will he turn his attention to Aristotle, who has made fun of ***'s weight, said he would get gang raped and die in prison, posted ***'s person info all over the 'net, and claimed to his friends that he had a hand in having these charges get brought against ***?

[Intown]

Hillary, you just joined UG today and already you're making a comment in this thread? Sounds like you're somebody's second (or maybe twentieth) handle.

[messstat]

Gee, there professor...that's quite a mouthful! Having read it several times, I cannot ascertain a conclusion, other than there is no conclusion to your spouting. Let me say this...I know I'm nearly alone in the trampling of *** and his indignities. I have never spoken of those legit-providers that nothing other than try to earn a living. Ms. Dahl and Sirena of course, are great exceptions to the rule...they remain politically and emotionally "glued" to the *** choo choo, that will ultimately meet the heavy hand of the IRS...thank GOD.
Let's beat this horse a few more times, shall we? So, how do you surmise I'm full of crap? Ah, I see...because you might be one of aforementioned sleazeballs? Me thinks you stink of i-n-v-o-l-v-e-m-e-n-t, beyond the parade of legalities and posturing.
I'm sorry if I stepped on anyones toes...(Excepting, of course, the nut-jobs I spoke of). I believe what I have to offer, is an invaluable report of the background information for all to see...good, bad or indifferent.
Yep, I admit it...I WANT *** to go down in a pawl of flames. If anyone doubts *** deserves less than the WORST that could happen...we'll, never see eye to eye. Same goes for Ms. Dahl and Sirena (his main squeeze)...When time passes and the smoke clears, any resemblance of order in the provider/hobbyist world will dispell any rumor, heresay or conjecture for all to see...Frankly, I can't wait to see when "lostinspace's" hyperdrive malfunctions and splurts a white-hot knuckle up his eloquent ass!

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by Hillary Clinton
Now that *** is done with this, will he turn his attention to Aristotle, who has made fun of ***'s weight, said he would get gang raped and die in prison, posted ***'s person info all over the 'net, and claimed to his friends that he had a hand in having these charges get brought against ***?

Hillary, if your boy Bill got away with the shit he did, Aristotle shouldn't have any problems.

[pswope]

Hey PJ

I hope this doesn't mean you'll be leaving us here and returning to dogland!

[pjorourke]

No thanks re dogland. If you guys can stand me, I'm staying here.

[John Blackthorne]

I think you need to chill. *** may not be a saint, but there was no advantage to the community for him to go down hard. He has been dragged thru the mud, and his legal bills are enormous.

The prosecution was absurd. They tried the case in the press starting months ago. They will be wiping egg off their faces for a long time. They spent a lot of money to ruin some people socially and financially, and I believe they should be run out of office.

Whatever your problem with *** (I have my own), your bitterness will not be a good thing for you. Get over it.

JB

[pswope]

excellent. otherwise I was going to contact the feds about an indictment.

[Reel Deal]

Originally posted by John Blackthorne
I think you need to chill. *** may not be a saint, but there was no advantage to the community for him to go down hard. He has been dragged thru the mud, and his legal bills are enormous.

The prosecution was absurd. They tried the case in the press starting months ago. They will be wiping egg off their faces for a long time. They spent a lot of money to ruin some people socially and financially, and I believe they should be run out of office.

Whatever your problem with *** (I have my own), your bitterness will not be a good thing for you. Get over it.

JB All in favor say "Aye".

AYE!!!

[Judge Advocate]

AYE !!!

[justlooking]

Now that this is over (if it really is), can everybody just admit that they really understand that prostitution is illegal, and that if a lot of people get together to help each other do it, that's at least arguably a conspiracy to commit illegal acts? And that all the denial was just rhetoric?

Please humor me: it would make me feel better to know that this board doesn't receive posts from some parallel universe whose ways are much different from our own.

PS -- It would be a sad day for this board if pj left.

[John Blackthorne]

Originally posted by justlooking
Now that this is over (if it really is), can everybody just admit that they really understand that prostitution is illegal, and that if a lot of people get together to help each other do it, that's a conspiracy to commit illegal acts? And that all the denial was just rhetoric?

Please humor me: it would make me feel better to know that this board doesn't receive posts from some parallel universe whose ways are much different from our own.

PS -- It would be a sad day for this board if pj left.

You mean it wasn't all about the First Amendment??

JB

[Slinky Bender]

A) JL, I'm sorry to say that I think the biggiest lesson most folks will "learn" from this is "it's all safe and you can get away with it".

b) I think it is fairly clear that justice wasn't served here (as is usually the case when things are dismissed on technicalities). What I mean is that the defendants spent large sums of money on their defense, which they will most probably not recoup any of, as well as had their names dragged through the press. If they were innocent of the charges, that's certainly not "Justice". If, on the other hand, they were guilty of the charges, having them dismissed on a technicality isn't "Justice", either. On top of that, the citizens of Florida certainly didn't "get their money's worth" here. All in all, I'd say it didn't turn out well* for anyone on the whole (that's not to say that things couldn't have been a whole lot worse for a whole bunch of folks).

*perhaps I mean "this wasn't a great experience"

[John Blackthorne]

It went REALLY well for the attorneys.

JB

[pjorourke]

http://www.hillcity-comics.com/graphic_novels/new_graphic_novel543.jpg

Yes jl, anyone still living in that Bizarro Land parallel universe that thinks this Judge's decision condones all this is crazy. This was the legal equivalent of running out the clock -- kind of like a North Carolina four corners stall. They were not found innocent. The prosecuter was found to have fucked up. Ironically, one of the reasons the clock ran out was that the Confidential Informants that were so villified here and on *** fought the release of their identities to the defense. This delayed discovery.

ps. thanks jl and swope.

[justlooking]

That isn't even what strikes me as most bizarre.

What strikes me as most bizarre is that people can be accused of prostitution and participating in prostitution, on alleged facts that make it seem like those are at least credible accusations,* and everybody treats it as if it's either some grudge match or some assault on their civil rights. Nobody can know what the motives of the authorities who brought the case were. But it's not like it was entering areas unknown to the law.

I just wish people who insist on using message boards to arrange appointments with prostitutes or johns, or organizing publically-proclaimed real-life get-togethers of prostitutes and johns, or participating in formal or informal net-related reference/referal networks, would just fucking THINK about what they're doing and what risks they're taking.

That's all.

___________________________________________
* I hope it's clear that my point isn't, "Oh those people are bad and would've deserved what they got." My point is that those people did things that were illegal -- as does just about everybody who posts here. And for posters on a board like this to pretend that very public illegal activities can't be prosecuted reaches a level of disingenuous that should itself be illegal.

[pswope]

It would be truly sad,but not surprising if anyone thought the result was on the merits and is in any form a vindication of ***,his actions,or that of his associates.

Slinky-ditto. re justice served.

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by John Blackthorne
It went REALLY well for the attorneys.

JB

Now there is a surprise!

[Slinky Bender]

Originally posted by John Blackthorne
It went REALLY well for the attorneys.

JB

I know you were joking, but I'll answer anyway: Not for all of them. I would think the prosecution would have "done better" if they lost on the "merrits" rather than this.

[John Blackthorne]

Originally posted by slinkybender


I know you were joking, but I'll answer anyway: Not for all of them. I would think the prosecution would have "done better" if they lost on the "merrits" rather than this.

I posted my opinion of the prosecution's performance earlier. He has to be totally humiliated, as it was he who made this a high profile case.

The defendants lose big monetarily and socially. The taxpayers see their money wasted.

But the attorneys for the defense are happy campers.

JB

[galahad]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by John Blackthorne
[B]

I posted my opinion of the prosecution's performance earlier. He has to be totally humiliated, as it was he who made this a high profile case.

If my belief in the "sh*t always flows down hill when there is blame to be passed out" rings true I think the guy who stands the most to lose is the one that convinced the prosecution he had enough bullets to win.

[Slinky Bender]

galahad,

I have to disagree with that, because I don't think it was proven that there weren't enough bullets. The case ended because someone dropped the gun before firing it. The gun could have been totally empty, loaded with blanks, or full. We'll never know.

[John Blackthorne]

Originally posted by galahad
If my belief in the "sh*t always flows down hill when there is blame to be passed out" rings true I think the guy who stands the most to lose is the one that convinced the prosecution he had enough bullets to win. [/B]

Who says he didn't?

JB

[galahad]

Originally posted by John Blackthorne


Who says he didn't?

JB

Didn't catch heat or didn't give him enough bullets?

I have to disagree with that, because I don't think it was proven that there weren't enough bullets. The case ended because someone dropped the gun before firing it. The gun could have been toatlly epmty, loaded with blanks, or empty. We'll never know.

Slinky- you are correct. Unlike a few that posted above you we will never know unless something else changes in the weeks to come how this would have turned out. Trying to determine who might have won this fight is a lot like comparing boxers from different era's as to which one is the greatest of all time.

The one comment I will make is that from what I understand the delay in getting the information to the defense from the prosecution had very little to do with the CI's holding anything up.

As the information pertaining to this incident becomes more available to the public I think we may all learn a few new things.

[Reel Deal]

Originally posted by galahad
The one comment I will make is that from what I understand the delay in getting the information to the defense from the prosecution had very little to do with the CI's holding anything up. Wrong. Much of the delays were focused on the witness list.

[galahad]

No sorry RD not on this one.

[Reel Deal]

Sorry Galahad-I was editing while you were posting. But the witness list was a focus of the delays.

[John Blackthorne]

Originally posted by galahad


Didn't catch heat or didn't give him enough bullets?

I have to disagree with that, because I don't think it was proven that there weren't enough bullets. The case ended because someone dropped the gun before firing it. The gun could have been toatlly epmty, loaded with blanks, or empty. We'll never know.



I was saying what Slinky said in the same moment, I just used fewer words.

JB

[Intown]

"* I hope it's clear that my point isn't, "Oh those people are bad and would've deserved what they got." My point is that those people did things that were illegal -- as does just about everybody who posts here. And for posters on a board like this to pretend that very public illegal activities can't be prosecuted reaches a level of disingenuous that should itself be illegal."

This is a perfect example why if you only have time to read one posters comments it should be JL's.

[Intown]

Except, of course, for his posts about the definition of GFE.

[justlooking]

That's funny -- I was about to post the exact same thing.

[justlooking]

(I meant about my "GFE" posts, not about what Intown said in the post before the "GFE" one.)

[Flounder]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm fucking dancing in the streets over this.:D

[vegasjim]

Originally posted by Flounder
I don't know about you guys, but I'm fucking dancing in the streets over this.:D

Bill I am with you and could not be happier!

http://tampatrib.com/floridametronews/MGAJVLWET9D.html

[messstat]

Well, that's it then...****** should be sleeping on the couch by now, or worse. Ms. Dahl, can resume her tete-a-tete's with Charles...Sirena , can again become magically "unavailable" at the appointed time...All's well in the world.
I'm sure the prosecutors will certainly take this lying down...(cough) nor will they make a listing of those involved, to the local investigative IRS offices. No problem!
Uh, make your "dance" an Irish jig...Leprechauns love evil celebration.

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by vegasjim
Bill I am with you and could not be happier!

http://tampatrib.com/floridametronews/MGAJVLWET9D.html

Looks like Gallahad is dead wrong and RD was right on. It was the witnesses (or at least one witness) that F'ed up the prosecutions case.

[galahad]

It was the misinformation more than protection. My response was posted to the original response by RD. Now of course what I am hearing can be inaccurate but my point is that it was not about protecting CI's only.

Of course people have been telling me I was wrong for the past six months, so I place the information out there; those who want to read it can and make their own choice on to believe it or not. Time will tell.

[pjorourke]

Originally posted by messstat
Well, that's it then...Belote should be sleeping on the couch by now, or worse. Ms. Dahl, can resume her tete-a-tete's with Charles...Sirena , can again become magically "unavailable" at the appointed time...All's well in the world.
I'm sure the prosecutors will certainly take this lying down...(cough) nor will they make a listing of those involved, to the local investigative IRS offices. No problem!
Uh, make your "dance" an Irish jig...Leprechauns love evil celebration.

No doubt about it *** and the gang were as lucky as someone who found the Leprechaun's pot of gold. They got off on a technicality because the prosecutor didn't reveal the names of the CI's in a timely manner. Had this gone to trial, I doubt result would have been as favorable. It was good lawyering by the defense, but as many have noted, it was hardly a vindication or "justice".

If the *** crowd has enough grey matter to create a single brain in their collective heads, they will learn from this experience and as jl suggest go back to keeping private matters private. Anyone who doesn't think this whole experience has awakened a sleeping LE bear is deluded.

[Judge Advocate]

The news releases are partially 'face-saving' for the prosecution. There was actually far more to the case and the reasons the judge decided the way she did.

Any judge has numerous remedies available that would allow them to rule on an extension of time and NOT charge it to the prosecutor.

The facts are that with all the arguments already presented (through the various motions) the judge did not feel the case had enough merit for her to make a forceful decision to continue on and place it into a trial. She DID have it in her power to do that.

Her reasons for summarily denying all previous motions without comment or case law cited were in part due to the fact that they were not needed. The case was ill-prepared from the start with little or no actual facts available that would withstand the scrutiny of a court.

This was a classic case of publicity and desire for limelight. It failed to withstand the light of day and was dismissed.

The excuse by the prosecutor is not the 'whole truth and nothing but the truth'.

In time many of the rather 'interesting' aspects of what went on in the backchannel will surface ...... and they will be a surprise to many.

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by John Blackthorne
It went REALLY well for the attorneys.

JB

When does it ever not go well for the attorney's?

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by Hillary Clinton
Now that *** is done with this, will he turn his attention to Aristotle, who has made fun of ***'s weight, said he would get gang raped and die in prison, posted ***'s person info all over the 'net, and claimed to his friends that he had a hand in having these charges get brought against ***?



Tis not me nor rufus (in case that's what you're implying)... But someone who has been around a long long time if they remember that "Hillary Clinton" was the poster who first (?) outed *** on ASPD(?).

According to Rufus and several others, the original "Hillary Clinton" who outed *** was Aristotle.

[greekgirlinnj]

nevermind hilary already posted

[Aristotle]

Originally posted by Ozzy
According to Rufus and several others, the original "Hillary Clinton" who outed *** was Aristotle.

Since ozzy and the rest of the *********** crew know this is untrue (and have always known it), why repeat it?

[The Ghost of JAG]

Do you think he was shaving when he wrote that?

[justme]

(I agree that no good could come from repeating that allegation)

[justlooking]

Jesusfuckingchrist.

[SkellyChamp]

Prostitution is illegal and if a lot of people get together to do it than that is arguable a conspiracy to commit prostitution.

[justlooking]

Well, that's one . . . .

[Intown]

My guess is that *** eventually returns to whatever he was doing before, if not worse. Doesn't it always happen that way? Mr Burger King stops eating whoppers because he gets a heart attack, but once the scare is over, he's in the drive-thru lane again. Mr 200lbs goes on a diet and loses the weight, only to eventually regain it all plus some. Mr UGer gets caught hobbying by his wife or girlfriend and once he's forgiven he goes back to his old ways. The list is endless.

[Ozzy]

It'll be funny to see Bill welcome Ari to Gold.

[Intown]

What does it take to be welcomed to Gold? Whatever it is, I guess I didn't do it.

Signed, crying because nobody came to my party

And remember, it's my party and I'll cry if I want to.

[Casper]

INTOWN WELCOME TO GOLD.

You've arrived, now get back to work.

[Flounder]

Originally posted by Ozzy
It'll be funny to see Bill welcome Ari to Gold.

13 posts to go for ari.

Intown...Welcome To Gold!!!:)